Continuity errors in Men at Arms
William Cloud Hicklin
Men at Arms rather oddly seems to ignore previously-known "facts" about
Discworld- and in fact seems to define A-M the way it would be thereafter.
A couple of examples:
Sam Vimes knows the story of Old Stoneface the regicide, and indeed gives
us an extended rant on monarchy; but in Guards! Guards! Vimes was
completely unaware that A-M had ever had kings.
In all previous (and subsequent) books in which the Master of Assassins is
named, he's Dr Downey; but in MA, Downey is merely the assistant to Dr
Cruces (who never appears elsewhere).
In Pyramids we are told that the gates of the Assassins' Guild are never
closed, indeed rusted open; but in MA they are very much closed (until
Detritus blows them away).
Any others?
--
"There's got to be a better way than fighting," said Mr. Saveloy.
"Yep. Lots of 'em," replied Cohen. "Only none of 'em work."
Beth Winter
>
> Men at Arms rather oddly seems to ignore previously-known "facts" about
> Discworld- and in fact seems to define A-M the way it would be thereafter.
>
> A couple of examples:
>
> Sam Vimes knows the story of Old Stoneface the regicide, and indeed gives
> us an extended rant on monarchy; but in Guards! Guards! Vimes was
> completely unaware that A-M had ever had kings.
And of course having a king-in-waiting in the force /and/ kicking the
alcohol habit means there's no time for reading, even useful reading up
on kings? I think even in G!G! it's quite clear Vimes is literate, at
least.
> In all previous (and subsequent) books in which the Master of Assassins is
> named, he's Dr Downey; but in MA, Downey is merely the assistant to Dr
> Cruces (who never appears elsewhere).
I believe this will be clear once you read the book to the end. Also, in
Pyramids Downey was just a teacher, then assistant to the Master (MAA),
then Master later.
> In Pyramids we are told that the gates of the Assassins' Guild are never
> closed, indeed rusted open; but in MA they are very much closed (until
> Detritus blows them away).
Change of master, perhaps? Cruces seems like the kind of person who
likes all things running smoothly, hinges included.
--
Beth Winter
Extenuation Collective <http://www.extenuation.net/>
"To absent friends, lost loves, old gods and the season of mists."
-- Neil Gaiman
Daibhid Ceanaideach
<icelof...@mindspring.com> did say:
>
> Men at Arms rather oddly seems to ignore previously-known
> "facts" about Discworld- and in fact seems to define A-M
> the way it would be thereafter.
>
> A couple of examples:
>
> Sam Vimes knows the story of Old Stoneface the regicide,
> and indeed gives us an extended rant on monarchy; but in
> Guards! Guards! Vimes was completely unaware that A-M had
> ever had kings.
He may have researched it since. (Although there's a
continuity error *within* MAA, since Carrot seems totally
bewildered by this information, and later knows more about it
than Vimes does.)
> In all previous (and subsequent) books in which the Master
> of Assassins is named, he's Dr Downey; but in MA, Downey
> is merely the assistant to Dr Cruces (who never appears
> elsewhere).
Nope, the only previous book to mention the Guild head is COM
where it's a Zorf Flannelfoot. Downey becomes head *after*
Cruces death, and first appears as such in Feet of Clay.
(Dr. Cruces, incidentally, also appears in Pyramids as the
head tutor during Pteppic's first year.)
> In Pyramids we are told that the gates of the Assassins'
> Guild are never closed, indeed rusted open; but in MA they
> are very much closed (until Detritus blows them away).
Someone finally found an oil-can 8-)?
--
Dave
Official Absentee of EU Skiffeysoc
http://sesoc.eusa.ed.ac.uk/
"I'm still here with the eyes of a child,
The wonder never grows old."
-"Hearthammer", Runrig
William Cloud Hicklin
<daibhidc...@aol.com> wrote:
> 'Twas on the 22 Jun 2007, that "William Cloud Hicklin"
> <icelof...@mindspring.com> did say:
>
>>
>> Men at Arms rather oddly seems to ignore previously-known
>> "facts" about Discworld- and in fact seems to define A-M
>> the way it would be thereafter.
>>
>> A couple of examples:
>>
>> Sam Vimes knows the story of Old Stoneface the regicide,
>> and indeed gives us an extended rant on monarchy; but in
>> Guards! Guards! Vimes was completely unaware that A-M had
>> ever had kings.
>
> He may have researched it since. (Although there's a
> continuity error *within* MAA, since Carrot seems totally
> bewildered by this information, and later knows more about it
> than Vimes does.)
OK- but factor this in: in MA we see the Tolkien-nod Audience Hall, with
the Patrician's chair below the empty gilt throne, which doubtless Sam had
seen many, many times. More emphatically: the ancient Watch Oath, which
Carrot administers in MA and Vimes/Peel administers in Night Watch,
explicitly references the Monarch (as does, implicitly, the
Sergeant-at-Arms' crown insignia).
>
>> In all previous (and subsequent) books in which the Master
>> of Assassins is named, he's Dr Downey; but in MA, Downey
>> is merely the assistant to Dr Cruces (who never appears
>> elsewhere).
>
> Nope, the only previous book to mention the Guild head is COM
> where it's a Zorf Flannelfoot. Downey becomes head *after*
> Cruces death, and first appears as such in Feet of Clay.
>
> (Dr. Cruces, incidentally, also appears in Pyramids as the
> head tutor during Pteppic's first year.)
I stand corrected
>
>> In Pyramids we are told that the gates of the Assassins'
>> Guild are never closed, indeed rusted open; but in MA they
>> are very much closed (until Detritus blows them away).
>
> Someone finally found an oil-can 8-)?
>
Supposedly it's by "ancient tradition."
Daibhid Ceanaideach
Yep, you're right there. Before NW there might have been a bit
of wriggle room in suggesting the oath had been forgotten by
the time Vimes joined, but this doesn't seem to be the case.
(Another inconsistency, incidentally, since MAA states that
Colon, who NW shows joined *before* Keel, didn't know about
the oath.)
>>> In Pyramids we are told that the gates of the Assassins'
>>> Guild are never closed, indeed rusted open; but in MA
>>> they are very much closed (until Detritus blows them
>>> away).
>>
>> Someone finally found an oil-can 8-)?
>
> Supposedly it's by "ancient tradition."
"The gates of the Assassins Guild were never shut. This was
said to be because Death was open for business all the time,
but it was really because the hinges had rusted centuries
before, and no-one had got around to doing anything about it."
So "supposedly" is very much the right word...
Daibhid Ceanaideach
<daibhidc...@aol.com> did say:
> 'Twas on the 22 Jun 2007, that "William Cloud Hicklin"
> <icelof...@mindspring.com> did say:
>>>> In Pyramids we are told that the gates of the Assassins'
>>>> Guild are never closed, indeed rusted open; but in MA
>>>> they are very much closed (until Detritus blows them
>>>> away).
>>>
>>> Someone finally found an oil-can 8-)?
>>
>> Supposedly it's by "ancient tradition."
>
> "The gates of the Assassins Guild were never shut. This was
> said to be because Death was open for business all the
> time, but it was really because the hinges had rusted
> centuries before, and no-one had got around to doing
> anything about it."
>
> So "supposedly" is very much the right word...
Although immediately after posting I remembered the standard
Discworld "bit" (based on RL) that *anything* can become a
tradition if it lasts long enough, especially if it's got a
bit of cool legend-making like that attatched to it...
Sabremeister Brian
Daibhid Ceanaideach (daibhidc...@aol.com) spake thusly:
> 'Twas on the 22 Jun 2007, that "William Cloud Hicklin"
> <icelof...@mindspring.com> did say:
>
>> On Fri, 22 Jun 2007 11:44:29 -0400, Daibhid Ceanaideach
>> <daibhidc...@aol.com> wrote:
>>
>>> 'Twas on the 22 Jun 2007, that "William Cloud Hicklin"
>>> <icelof...@mindspring.com> did say:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Men at Arms rather oddly seems to ignore previously-known
>>>> "facts" about Discworld- and in fact seems to define A-M
>>>> the way it would be thereafter.
>>>>
>>>> A couple of examples:
>>>>
>>>> Sam Vimes knows the story of Old Stoneface the regicide,
>>>> and indeed gives us an extended rant on monarchy; but in
>>>> Guards! Guards! Vimes was completely unaware that A-M had
>>>> ever had kings.
>>>
>>> He may have researched it since. (Although there's a
>>> continuity error *within* MAA, since Carrot seems totally
>>> bewildered by this information, and later knows more about
>>> it than Vimes does.)
>>
>> OK- but factor this in: in MA we see the Tolkien-nod
>> Audience Hall, with the Patrician's chair below the empty
>> gilt throne,
Wasn't that in GG?
>> which doubtless Sam had seen many, many
>> times. More emphatically: the ancient Watch Oath, which
>> Carrot administers in MA and Vimes/Peel administers in
>> Night Watch, explicitly references the Monarch (as does,
>> implicitly, the Sergeant-at-Arms' crown insignia).
>
> Yep, you're right there. Before NW there might have been a bit
> of wriggle room in suggesting the oath had been forgotten by
> the time Vimes joined, but this doesn't seem to be the case.
>
> (Another inconsistency, incidentally, since MAA states that
> Colon, who NW shows joined *before* Keel, didn't know about
> the oath.)
Vimes/Keel is not the original Keel. The original Keel was from
Psuedopolis, not A-M. The original Keel didn't have knowledge of the
A-M Watch Oath. The original Keel wouldn't have administered it.
Vimes/Keel changed the timeline. Vimes/Keel knew about the Oath, and
had administered it before. He administered it again, as he needed
something to ensure his men's loyalty, and he wasn't certain that the
original Keel's methods alone would have been enough. He wanted
everyone to survive, remember, and in the original timeline, not
everyone did. His attempt to save everyone failed, but in such a way
that, perhaps, those who died died in different ways/circumstances to
how they died in the original timeline.
--
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www.livejournal.com/users/sabremeister/
Use brian at sabremeister dot me dot uk to reply
"Yan, tan, tethra, huthuthut!"
Daibhid Ceanaideach
<bpwak...@hotmail.com> did say:
> In a speech called
> Xns9957B844BEFAFda...@130.133.1.4, Daibhid
> Ceanaideach (daibhidc...@aol.com) spake thusly:
>
>> 'Twas on the 22 Jun 2007, that "William Cloud Hicklin"
>> <icelof...@mindspring.com> did say:
>>
>>> More emphatically: the ancient Watch Oath, which
>>> Carrot administers in MA and Vimes/Peel administers in
>>> Night Watch, explicitly references the Monarch (as does,
>>> implicitly, the Sergeant-at-Arms' crown insignia).
>>
>> Yep, you're right there. Before NW there might have been a
>> bit of wriggle room in suggesting the oath had been
>> forgotten by the time Vimes joined, but this doesn't seem
>> to be the case.
>>
>> (Another inconsistency, incidentally, since MAA states
>> that Colon, who NW shows joined *before* Keel, didn't know
>> about the oath.)
>
> Vimes/Keel is not the original Keel. The original Keel was
> from Psuedopolis, not A-M. The original Keel didn't have
> knowledge of the A-M Watch Oath. The original Keel wouldn't
> have administered it. Vimes/Keel changed the timeline.
> Vimes/Keel knew about the Oath, and had administered it
> before. He administered it again, as he needed something to
> ensure his men's loyalty, and he wasn't certain that the
> original Keel's methods alone would have been enough.
Uh, yeah. I don't see how any of that affects the point. The
oath was being used at the time, since no-one reacts as if
it's something Vimes/Keel just made up. Thirty years later,
Colon's never heard of it.
Len Oil
> Yep, you're right there. Before NW there might have been a bit
> of wriggle room in suggesting the oath had been forgotten by
> the time Vimes joined, but this doesn't seem to be the case.
I tend to think that it was the arrival of Carrot himself (with the
out-of-date statute-book at hand and/or memorised) that returned the
[L|R]oyal Oath to the fore... Who knows how long it hadn't been there.
And /he/ knows it all by rote (witness the "your deity here" bits, etc),
and so is obviously naive enough to not question the meaning. But he
isn't stupid, so it's not surprising that he manages to 'catch up' with
the situation once the whole kingly thing is brought to the fore. (Even
if the Oath stays mangled. ;)
> (Another inconsistency, incidentally, since MAA states that
> Colon, who NW shows joined *before* Keel, didn't know about
> the oath.)
'Keel' may have brought Colon's attention to it, but did *Keel* do so,
originally? ;)
(Darnit, where's my copy of MAA? Have I lent it out?)
Daibhid Ceanaideach
<len...@lenoil.demon.co.uk> did say:
> Daibhid Ceanaideach wrote:
>> Yep, you're right there. Before NW there might have been a
>> bit of wriggle room in suggesting the oath had been
>> forgotten by the time Vimes joined, but this doesn't seem
>> to be the case.
>
> I tend to think that it was the arrival of Carrot himself
> (with the out-of-date statute-book at hand and/or
> memorised) that returned the [L|R]oyal Oath to the fore...
> Who knows how long it hadn't been there.
Since some point after Night Watch, where it *is* there.
That's my point.
>> (Another inconsistency, incidentally, since MAA states
>> that Colon, who NW shows joined *before* Keel, didn't know
>> about the oath.)
>
> 'Keel' may have brought Colon's attention to it, but did
> *Keel* do so, originally? ;)
No, "Keel" *didn't* bring Colon's attention to it. "Keel"
astounded the captain by reciting it perfectly without needing
to look at it. And the only way you can astound people by
reciting something perfectly is if they know you aren't just
making it up.
And then half the plot is based on Vimes pointing out to the
squad that the oath doesn't say anything about obeying orders,
which is surely only relevent if they actually took it.
Sabremeister Brian
Since I'm working entirely from memory on this, I'm going to take the
opportunity of going home this weekend to read the book, then I'll get
back to you.
--
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www.livejournal.com/users/sabremeister/
Use brian at sabremeister dot me dot uk to reply
Always be nice to attractive checkout operators
You never know when you may need a date in a hurry.
Len Oil
[...]
>>> (Another inconsistency, incidentally, since MAA states
>>> that Colon, who NW shows joined *before* Keel, didn't know
>>> about the oath.)
>> 'Keel' may have brought Colon's attention to it, but did
>> *Keel* do so, originally? ;)
>
> No, "Keel" *didn't* bring Colon's attention to it. "Keel"
> astounded the captain by reciting it perfectly without needing
> to look at it. And the only way you can astound people by
> reciting something perfectly is if they know you aren't just
> making it up.
I'm going to have to re-read, for I don't remember it as "Oooh, he knows
the oath!" but more as "Oooh, that sounds all sort of /official/!"
Now, I /have/ NW at hand, unlike MAA, so...
[Hur, hur, hur... "...completely drawers at being a guard..." wonder if
that is (or is sufficiently interesting to be, if not already) an [A]... ;]
Well, Captain Tilden doesn't act too surprised about the existence of
the Oath when 'Keel' prompts him and then pre-empts his discovery of
where he has it written down by reciting it. But he is surprised
anyone's bothering with it. "Oh, er, that thing?" makes it sound out of
use in that time period. (One could imagine that Tilden doesn't even
have it written down and is bluffing, in front of the overly clued-up
'newcomer', but I think it's more like "Haven't done that for years.")
> And then half the plot is based on Vimes pointing out to the
> squad that the oath doesn't say anything about obeying orders,
> which is surely only relevent if they actually took it.
I've not found this bit, just yet, though I trust you it exists. In
particular I'm on the lookout for any bit where Vimes and Sam directly
interact over the point of the Oath, which I suspect should be there for
the anachronism to be most prominent. For virtually anyone else
(possibly Colon excepted if his times in military service hasn't muddled
it all up in his head) it could be much as postulated for Tilden, i.e.
still within living memory but generally forgotten about/back-burnered
by the time of NW and essentially outside of 'living memory' by the time
reinstated by Carrot and his copy of /Laws And Ordinances/.
I'll continue re-reading, though. I'm enjoying the task, and doing that
is probably more worthwhile than any quibbles we might have over the
semantics... ;)
Len Oil
>> Uh, yeah. I don't see how any of that affects the point. The
>> oath was being used at the time, since no-one reacts as if
>> it's something Vimes/Keel just made up. Thirty years later,
>> Colon's never heard of it.
>
> Since I'm working entirely from memory on this, I'm going to take the
> opportunity of going home this weekend to read the book, then I'll get
> back to you.
Can't (usual reasons) respond to previously responded-to message, and
mine hasn't come back, so please excuse the piggy-backing...
{Vimes talking to Sam:}
"[...] Didn't you take the oath when you joined up?"
"What oath, sarge?'
He didn't, Vimes remembered. A lot of them hadn't. You just got your
uniform and your beel and you were a member of the Night Watch.
That was a couple of years before NW. Then it talks about how "a few
years ago" Vimes wouldn't have bothered with the Oath either. Now, that
could indicate one of several things, depending on /when/ the
realisation that there was one hit. With Keel (originally), with
Carrot, or just along the way?
Shortly after, when distracted by an arrival, just as he was about to
get the NW-era lot sworn in properly, he says:
"Get Fred to swear the men in."
So, yes, he knows (NW-era) Colon knows. Or assumes he knows it, anyway.
But of course thirty intervening years can have dulled Fred's memory
of something that he was reminded of/told immediately before such events.
Daibhid Ceanaideach
<len...@lenoil.demon.co.uk> did say:
> I'll continue re-reading, though. I'm enjoying the task,
> and doing that is probably more worthwhile than any
> quibbles we might have over the semantics... ;)
Absolutely.
Daibhid Ceanaideach
<len...@lenoil.demon.co.uk> did say:
<snip all>
I concede. The oath in the period of NW was on the *point* of
being forgotten and could well have been forgotten, even by
people who were there, by G!G!, especially since, as *I'd*
forgotten, it *is* Keel/Vimes who draws everyone's attention
to it, and makes sure it's been sworn.
Jens Ayton
> William Cloud Hicklin:
>>
>> Sam Vimes knows the story of Old Stoneface the regicide, and indeed gives
>> us an extended rant on monarchy; but in Guards! Guards! Vimes was
>> completely unaware that A-M had ever had kings.
>
> And of course having a king-in-waiting in the force /and/ kicking the
> alcohol habit means there's no time for reading, even useful reading up
> on kings? I think even in G!G! it's quite clear Vimes is literate, at
> least.
I'm reasonably sure one of the books says Vimes learned about Stoneface and
the last king at Dame Wossname's school.
--
\\\\ Jens Ayton Sed quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
\\\\\__, Bringing sarcastic one-liners to the common hedgehog since 1999
\\\\\`/ From: address valid for at least one month from time of posting
William Cloud Hicklin
<UMHUXP...@spammotel.com> wrote:
> Beth Winter:
>> William Cloud Hicklin:
>>>
>>> Sam Vimes knows the story of Old Stoneface the regicide, and indeed
>>> gives
>>> us an extended rant on monarchy; but in Guards! Guards! Vimes was
>>> completely unaware that A-M had ever had kings.
>>
>> And of course having a king-in-waiting in the force /and/ kicking the
>> alcohol habit means there's no time for reading, even useful reading up
>> on kings? I think even in G!G! it's quite clear Vimes is literate, at
>> least.
>
> I'm reasonably sure one of the books says Vimes learned about Stoneface
> and
> the last king at Dame Wossname's school.
>
Moreover, in FoC the story is one "every schoolboy knows", and A-M is
preparing to celebrate the Tercentenary. The Vimes of GG would be like an
adult American (descendant of George Washington) who didn't know we were
once British.
William Cloud Hicklin
<bpwak...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>> OK- but factor this in: in MA we see the Tolkien-nod
>>> Audience Hall, with the Patrician's chair below the empty
>>> gilt throne,
> Wasn't that in GG?
No, the end of MaA. There's no mention of the Throne in G-G: and if it
were, it would have been in the Dragon's heap.
William Hughes
wrote:
> 'Twas on the 22 Jun 2007, that Daibhid Ceanaideach
>
>
>
> > 'Twas on the 22 Jun 2007, that "William Cloud Hicklin"
> >>>> In Pyramids we are told that the gates of the Assassins'
> >>>> Guild are never closed, indeed rusted open; but in MA
> >>>> they are very much closed (until Detritus blows them
> >>>> away).
>
> >>> Someone finally found an oil-can 8-)?
>
> >> Supposedly it's by "ancient tradition."
>
> > "The gates of the Assassins Guild were never shut. This was
> > said to be because Death was open for business all the
> > time, but it was really because the hinges had rusted
> > centuries before, and no-one had got around to doing
> > anything about it."
>
> > So "supposedly" is very much the right word...
>
> Although immediately after posting I remembered the standard
> Discworld "bit" (based on RL) that *anything* can become a
> tradition if it lasts long enough, especially if it's got a
> bit of cool legend-making like that attatched to it...
On the other hand...
Cruces: Oh, and have the hinges replaced on the main gate.
Underling: But rusted hinges on the main gate is traditional.
<brief interlude to remove body>
Cruces: Have the hinges replaced on the main gate.
Second Underling: Yes sir!
- William Hughes
William Cloud Hicklin
wrote:
>
> On the other hand...
>
> Cruces: Oh, and have the hinges replaced on the main gate.
> Underling: But rusted hinges on the main gate is traditional.
>
> <brief interlude to remove body>
>
> Cruces: Have the hinges replaced on the main gate.
> Second Underling: Yes sir!
>
An Assassin killing someone for *free*???!!???
William Hughes
<icelofang...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 09 Jul 2007 15:42:13 -0400, William Hughes <wpihug...@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On the other hand...
>
> > Cruces: Oh, and have the hinges replaced on the main gate.
> > Underling: But rusted hinges on the main gate is traditional.
>
> > <brief interlude to remove body>
>
> > Cruces: Have the hinges replaced on the main gate.
> > Second Underling: Yes sir!
>
> An Assassin killing someone for *free*???!!???
Good point!
(desperate attempt to redeem self) I didn't say a dead body
was removed.
-William Hughes
Raymond Daley
"William Cloud Hicklin" <icelof...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:op.tu7qtfnzrwd1fl@emachine...
> William Hughes wrote:
>> On the other hand...
>> Cruces: Oh, and have the hinges replaced on the main gate.
>> Underling: But rusted hinges on the main gate is traditional.
>> <brief interlude to remove body>
>> Cruces: Have the hinges replaced on the main gate.
>> Second Underling: Yes sir!
> An Assassin killing someone for *free*???!!???
Isn't there something in Pyraminds that says words the effect of when you
pass the exam and become an Assassin you become fair game to everyone else,
that there's an automatic bounty on other Assassins?
Daibhid Ceanaideach
<raymon...@ntlworld.com> did say:
>
> "William Cloud Hicklin" <icelof...@mindspring.com> wrote
> in message news:op.tu7qtfnzrwd1fl@emachine...
>> An Assassin killing someone for *free*???!!???
>
> Isn't there something in Pyraminds that says words the
> effect of when you pass the exam and become an Assassin you
> become fair game to everyone else, that there's an
> automatic bounty on other Assassins?
Not quite. More that it's acceptable to kill guards if there's
no alternative (although it's condidered bad manners to do so
if there is one), including other Assassins if they've been
hired as protection (in which case, given they've had the same
training, there probably won't be).
Sabremeister Brian
Raymond Daley (raymon...@ntlworld.com) spake thusly:
It's rumoured to be an automatic pass if you inhume the examining
officer on your final test.
--
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Use brian at sabremeister dot me dot uk to reply
You know you've been off Usenet too long when you start saying things
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- Me, April 2004