Christ Rose from the Dead on the Sabbath, NOT on Sunday.
Linda Lee
Five times in the New Testament gospels of Mark, John, Luke, and
Matthew the translators changed the Greek word for Sabbath to "week"
and added the word "day" to make it look as if Christ rose on the
first day of the week - Sunday, rather than Saturday, the Jewish
Sabbath (in particular the first Sabbath of the Passover, Passover
being a seven-day observance, beginning and ending with a Sabbath
day).
Mark 16:2 says, "And very early in the morning the first [day] of the
week [Sabbath], they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the
sun".
KJV Bible with Strong's numbers:
Mark 16:2 And 2532 very 3029 early in the morning 4404 the 3588 first
3391 day of the 3588 week, 4521 they came 2064 unto 1909 the 3588
sepulcher 3419 at the rising 393 of the 3588 sun. 2246
Here in Mark 16:2 the word "day" is in italics (supplied by the
translators). And the word translated "week" is from Gk. 4521 -
meaning "Of Hebrew origin [Heb. 7676]; the Sabbath (that is,
Shabbath), or day of weekly repose from secular avocations (also the
observance or institution itself)".
So the text of Mark 16:2 actually says, "And very early in the morning
the first of the Sabbath, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising
of the sun".
Mark 16:9 says, "Now when [Jesus] was risen early the first [day] of
the week [Sabbath], he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom
he had cast seven devils".
You can see by the following text with Strong's numbers, there are no
Greek words for "when Jesus was" (only Gk. 450 - a definition of
"risen") or for the word "day", so the Greek text actually says only
"Now risen at dawn on the first of the Sabbath appeared firstly to
Mary Magdalene".
Mark 16:9 - Now 1161 when Jesus was risen 450 early 4404 the first
4413 [day] of the week, 4521 he appeared 5316 first 4412 to Mary 3137
Magdalene, 3094 out of 575 whom 3739 he had cast 1544 seven 2033
devils. 1140
The word "early" - Gk. 4404 - means "at dawn".
The word translated "first" - Gk. 4413 - "foremost (in time, place,
order or importance).
The word translated "week" - Gk. 4521 - is "Of Hebrew origin [Heb.
7676]; the Sabbath (i.e. Shabbath), or day of weekly repose from
secular avocations (also the observance or institution itself; by
extension a se'nnight, that is, the interval between two Sabbaths;
likewise the plural in all the above applications)".
So the text of Mark 16:9 actually says, "Now risen early the first of
the Sabbath, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had
cast seven devils".
Here is another instance in the New Testament's Gospel of John where
the word "week" is substituted for the word for Sabbath:
John 20:1 says, "The first [day] of the week [Sabbath] cometh Mary
Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth
the stone taken away from the sepulchre."
John 20:1 - The 3588 first 3391 day of the 3588 week 4521 cometh 2064
Mary 3137 Magdalene 3094 early, 4404 when it was 5607 yet 2089 dark,
4653 unto 1519 the 3588 sepulcher, 3419 and 2532 seeth 991 the 3588
stone 3037 taken away 142 from 1537 the 3588 sepulcher. 3419
Here also in John's gospel, the word "day" is in italics (supplied by
the translators). And the word translated "week" is from Gk. 4521 -
meaning "Of Hebrew origin [Heb. 7676]; the Sabbath (that is,
Shabbath), or day of weekly repose from secular avocations (also the
observance or institution itself; by extension a se'nnight, that is,
the interval between two Sabbaths; likewise the plural in all the
above applications)".
The text of John 20:1 actually says, "The first of the Sabbath cometh
Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and
seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre."
Here is another instance in the New Testament's Gospel of Luke where
the word "week" is substituted for the word for Sabbath:
Luke 24:1 "Now upon the first [day] of the week [Sabbath], very early
in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices
which they had prepared, and certain others with them."
Luke 24:1 - Now 1161 upon the 3588 first 3391 day of the 3588 week,
4521 very early in the morning,901, 3722 they came2064 unto1909
the3588 sepulcher,3418 bringing5342 the spices759 which3739 they had
prepared,2090 and2532 certain5100 others with4862 them.846
Here also in Luke the word "day" is in italics (supplied by the
translators). And the word translated "week" is from Gk. 4521 -
meaning "Of Hebrew origin [H7676]; the Sabbath (that is, Shabbath), or
day of weekly repose from secular avocations (also the observance or
institution itself; by extension a se'nnight, that is, the interval
between two Sabbaths; likewise the plural in all the above
applications)".
The text of Luke 24:1 actually says, "Now upon the first of the
Sabbath, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre,
bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with
them."
Here again is another instance in the New Testament's Gospel of
Matthew where the word "week" is substituted for the word for Sabbath
(The text actually once includes the word "sabbath", but in the same
sentence translates another instance of "sabbath" as "week":
Matt. 28:1 says, "In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn
toward the first [day] of the week [Sabbath], came Mary Magdalene and
the other Mary to see the sepulchre".
Matt. 28:1 - In the end 3796 of the sabbath,4521 as it began to dawn
2020 toward 1519 the first 3391 day of the week, 4521 came 2064 Mary
3137 Magdalene 3094 and 2532 the 3588 other 243 Mary 3137 to see 2334
the 3588 sepulcher. 5028
The word translated 'end' - Gk. 3796 - "From the same as Gk. 3694
(through the idea of backwardness); (adverbially) late in the day; by
extension after the close of the day".
The Hebrew day begins the previous day at sundown, so it was "late in
the day" when it was dawn on the first of the Sabbath.
Here also in Matthew the word "day" is in italics (supplied by the
translators). And again, the word translated "week" is Gk. 4521 -
meaning "Of Hebrew origin [Heb. 7676]; the Sabbath (that is,
Shabbath), or day of weekly repose from secular avocations (also the
observance or institution itself; by extension a se'nnight, that is,
the interval between two Sabbaths; likewise the plural in all the
above applications)".
So the text of Matt 28:1 actually says, “Late in the day of the
Sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first of the Sabbath, came
Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre”.
The Christ, Yahashua` the Messiah, arose on the Sabbath day, NOT on a
Sunday.
duke
wrote:
>Mark 16:2 says, "And very early in the morning the first [day] of the
>week [Sabbath], they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the
>sun".
The Sabbath is on the 7th day. God created for 6 days and rested on the 7th
day, which is a day of rest and no work - the Sabbath.
The Dukester, American-American
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
Linda Lee
> On Fri, 1 Jan 2010 08:50:26 -0800 (PST), Linda Lee <lindagirl...@juno.com>
> wrote:
>
> >Mark 16:2 says, "And very early in the morning the first [day] of the
> >week [Sabbath], they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the
> >sun".
>
> The Sabbath is on the 7th day. God created for 6 days and rested on the 7th
> day, which is a day of rest and no work - the Sabbath.
>
> The Dukester, American-American
> *****
> "The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
> Pope Paul VI
> *****
I am aware that the Sabbath is on the seventh day of the week. You
apparently did not read the post. The word Sabbath (sabbaton in the
Greek) is translated "week" and the word "day" was added. The Greek
text of Mark 16:2 does NOT say the 'first day of the week' as the
English bibles do; it says "very early in the morning the first of the
Sabbath...".
LuckyLuke
"Linda Lee" <lindag...@juno.com> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:2bb7c9f4-3264-4c53...@l2g2000vbg.googlegroups.com...
Thank you for your post. I read almost all.
I'm doing some study about this topic. I may need some help. Can you write
me at my email address, please? I want to ask you some question in private.
Rod
!!:::DANGER:::!! Will Robinson.....!!:::DANGER:::!! DON'T DO IT..
duke
wrote:
>On Jan 1, 1:58�pm, duke <duckgumb...@cox.net> wrote:
>> On Fri, 1 Jan 2010 08:50:26 -0800 (PST), Linda Lee <lindagirl...@juno.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >Mark 16:2 says, "And very early in the morning the first [day] of the
>> >week [Sabbath], they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the
>> >sun".
>>
>> The Sabbath is on the 7th day. �God created for 6 days and rested on the 7th
>> day, which is a day of rest and no work - the Sabbath.
>>
>> The Dukester, American-American
>> *****
>> "The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
>> Pope Paul VI
>> *****
>I am aware that the Sabbath is on the seventh day of the week. You
>apparently did not read the post.
Of course I did.
> The word Sabbath (sabbaton in the
>Greek) is translated "week" and the word "day" was added.
The Jewish sabbath is still the 7th day, a day of rest and no work after 6 days
of work. And the reason they rushed Jesus from the cross to burial was because
it was against Jewish law to work on the Sabbath. So burying Jesus on the
Sabbath was a no-no. The Sabbath of course runs from Friday at 6pm to Saturday
at 6pm.
Jesus died at 3pm on Friday and was immediately buried.
duke
What's the matter? Afraid to discuss them in public?
LuckyLuke
"duke" <duckg...@cox.net> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:77ssj5p0kjch40qjq...@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 1 Jan 2010 21:57:38 +0100, "LuckyLuke" <fonta...@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Linda Lee" <lindag...@juno.com> ha scritto nel messaggio
>>news:2bb7c9f4-3264-4c53...@l2g2000vbg.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>Thank you for your post. I read almost all.
>>
>>I'm doing some study about this topic. I may need some help. Can you write
>>me at my email address, please? I want to ask you some question in
>>private.
>
> What's the matter? Afraid to discuss them in public?
I don't have anything to discuss. It's just that i may need more information
about that study, for my "private" study.
I don't study in public. I study in private and whatever are the results of
my "personal" and "private" studies i may decide to keep them for myself and
not to share.
Chuck
"LuckyLuke" <fonta...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:hhlugm$gnf$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
Don't study with people who are not good students themselves. You should
look at this page, which gives references to all the texts that have "the
first day of the week", and which taken in conjunction demonstrate CLEARLY
that Jesus rose on a Sunday, and that Sunday Christian worship was THE day
of worship for the frist Christian churches.
http://www.carm.org/religious-movements/seventh-day-adventism/scriptures-dealing-first-day-week
Chuck
dolf
the Sabbath day in the grave, as though it were a requirement.
The early church was Jewish and would not have laid aside the day as you
suggest which is the product of paganism.
LuckyLuke
"Chuck" <shells...@cox.net> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:3cw%m.913$ZB2...@newsfe13.iad...
He or she may be a bad student, but you...............seventh day
adventism.................NO COMMENT........................
dolf
Chuck is quoting a 3rd party www-site.
On 2/01/10 11:38 AM, LuckyLuke wrote:
>
> "Chuck" <shells...@cox.net> ha scritto nel messaggio
> news:3cw%m.913$ZB2...@newsfe13.iad...
dolf
JUBILEES, WEEKS (eg: 70 weeks) and DAYS (eg: 2300 days)
Clearly there is a problem with Adventist eschatology if WEEKS and DAYS
are an artifact of 6 x 364 day 'oth cycle.
If you follow Adventists 2300 prophecy of 1844 with the 364 day year
rather than the tropical year you end up with 1835 and Darwin...
Chuck
"dolf" <dolf...@grapple.id.au> wrote in message
news:xqw%m.66225$ze1....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> If Christ's death was meritorious, which it was, he wouldn't have rested
> the Sabbath day in the grave, as though it were a requirement.
Why not? He obeyed all the other Mosaic Laws, as He would have to if He
were incarnate Deity reconciling the world to Himself and the Law was given
by God.
That said, it's beside the point, which was that when one wants to increase
their knowledge in an area, they need to be careful to select as sources for
that additional knowledge sources that HAVE that knowledge. Linda doesn't
read, let alone TEACH Greek!
Chuck
Chuck
You misunderstood. I'm not a Seventh Day Adventist. I do understand that
expertise need not be infallible to be expertise. If you don't like the
site, find one published by GREEK SCHOLARS who can assure you what all those
passages that contain the phrase "on the first day of the week" in English
actually mean in Greek. Linda can't do that, although she likes to think
she can.
Chuck
Chuck
> That was a Godless snigger against seventh-day adventists LuckyLuke.
>
> Chuck is quoting a 3rd party www-site.
And I could have done a better job than citing the site of a controversial
denomination like the 7th Day Adventist's. A more general site would have
been better, and would have basically made the same argument and been
equally authoritative.
Chuck
Sam taylor
Sabboth of the 1st day of the feast of Unleavened Bread a yerly Sabboth not
a weekly sabboth.
He was in the grave for 3 days not 1 day
2 types of sabboths a Weekly sabboth Saturday, and a Yearly high Sabboth
that could befall on Any day of the week
"duke" <duckg...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:n0ssj5pasvj7g1299...@4ax.com...
@tampabay.rr.com Pastor Dave
<shells...@cox.net> spake thusly:
>"dolf" <dolf...@grapple.id.au> wrote:
>
>> If Christ's death was meritorious, which it was,
>> he wouldn't have rested the Sabbath day in
>> the grave, as though it were a requirement.
>
> Why not? He obeyed all the other Mosaic Laws,
> as He would have to if He were incarnate Deity
> reconciling the world to Himself and the Law
> was given by God.
>
> That said, it's beside the point, which was that when
> one wants to increase their knowledge in an area,
> they need to be careful to select as sources for that
> additional knowledge sources that HAVE that knowledge.
> Linda doesn't read, let alone TEACH Greek!
Which has nothing to do with what you quoted
and as a matter of fact, He was in the grave
for the Sabbath. More than one, in fact.
But of course the facts don't matter to someone
like you, who tries to cram the whole "three days
and three nights" into a day and a half. <chuckle>
--
Pastor Dave
The following is part of my auto-rotating
sig file and not part of the message body.
"The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance.
It is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel Boorstin
@tampabay.rr.com Pastor Dave
<shells...@cox.net> spake thusly:
> You misunderstood. I'm not a Seventh Day Adventist.
> I do understand that expertise need not be infallible
> to be expertise.
To be expertise???
> If you don't like the site, find one published by
> GREEK SCHOLARS who can assure you what all
> those passages that contain the phrase "on the
> first day of the week" in English actually mean
> in Greek.
It would mean our Sunday. That does not mean
that He was crucified on Friday, which He was not.
--
Pastor Dave
The following is part of my auto-rotating
sig file and not part of the message body.
"There are some that only employ words for the purpose
of disguising their thoughts." - Voltaire
@tampabay.rr.com Pastor Dave
<cyg...@cncnet.com> spake thusly:
> Actually He died on Wednesday afternoon at about
> 4:30PM it was the Yearly Sabboth of the 1st day of
> the feast of Unleavened Bread a yearly Sabboth not
> a weekly sabboth. He was in the grave for 3 days,
> not 1 day 2 types of sabboths a Weekly sabboth
> Saturday, and a Yearly high Sabboth that could
> befall on Any day of the week.
Correct! And that is what people like Chuck refuse
to understand! They insist that it was the seventh
day Sabbath, when it was not.
"Three days and three nights" can in no way be
"a day and a half". In fact, even if you buy into
that "part of day counts as a whole day" crap
(which is indeed crap), it still doesn't add up!
Now the exact time frame of rising is up for question.
But that does not change the fact that there was more
than one Sabbath that week and what they were and
a simple perusal of the Scriptures reveals this.
What most people will never pick up on, is the time
of day He was went to the grave, which is found by
looking carefully at the Hebrew and understanding
what the ritual was for when the Lamb was killed.
I have studied and written much on this subject,
but Chuck's ego is too big to admit he's wrong,
even if he figures out that he is! (:
--
Pastor Dave
The following is part of my auto-rotating
sig file and not part of the message body.
In a company of literary gentlemen, Daniel Webster
was asked if he could comprehend how Jesus Christ
could be both God and man. "No, sir," he replied,
and added, "I should be ashamed to acknowledge Him
as my Savior if I could comprehend Him. If I could
comprehend Him, He could be no greater than myself.
Such is my sense of sin, and consciousness of my
inability to save myself, that I feel I need a
superhuman Savior, one so great and glorious that
I cannot comprehend Him."
Chuck
"Pastor Dave" <newsgroup-mail @ tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:g4otj5tkbs8m45rgq...@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 1 Jan 2010 18:42:14 -0800, "Chuck"
> <shells...@cox.net> spake thusly:
>
>
>> You misunderstood. I'm not a Seventh Day Adventist.
>> I do understand that expertise need not be infallible
>> to be expertise.
>
> To be expertise???
>
>
>> If you don't like the site, find one published by
>> GREEK SCHOLARS who can assure you what all
>> those passages that contain the phrase "on the
>> first day of the week" in English actually mean
>> in Greek.
>
> It would mean our Sunday. That does not mean
> that He was crucified on Friday, which He was not.
So you believe, which doesn't impress me.
Chuck
@tampabay.rr.com Pastor Dave
<shells...@cox.net> spake thusly:
>"Pastor Dave" <newsgroup-mail @ tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 1 Jan 2010 18:42:14 -0800, "Chuck"
>> <shells...@cox.net> spake thusly:
>>
>>> You misunderstood. I'm not a Seventh Day Adventist.
>>> I do understand that expertise need not be infallible
>>> to be expertise.
>>
>> To be expertise???
>>
>>
>>> If you don't like the site, find one published by
>>> GREEK SCHOLARS who can assure you what all
>>> those passages that contain the phrase "on the
>>> first day of the week" in English actually mean
>>> in Greek.
>>
>> It would mean our Sunday. That does not mean
>> that He was crucified on Friday, which He was not.
>
> So you believe, which doesn't impress me.
Nothing impresses you, but your own ego.
The fact is, a day and a half does not equal,
"three days and three nights".
--
Pastor Dave
The following is part of my auto-rotating
sig file and not part of the message body.
When blondes have more fun, do they know it?
Linda Lee
> "Linda Lee" <lindagirl...@juno.com> ha scritto nel messaggionews:2bb7c9f4-3264-4c53...@l2g2000vbg.googlegroups.com...
>
> Thank you for your post. I read almost all.
>
> I'm doing some study about this topic. I may need some help. Can you write
> me at my email address, please? I want to ask you some question in private.
You can e-mail anyone privately on Google Groups by clicking on Reply
to Author. But I am no expert on this subject; I am just in the habit
of checking out the Strong's, BDB's, and Thayer's lexicon's
definitions of the Greek and Hebrew words translated in the KJV Bible,
and noticed that "week" is translated from the Greek word for Sabbath,
and "day" is in italics indicating it was added to the text.
But the gospel of Matthew does indicate he was already risen when they
arrived at the end of the Sabbath day i.e. he rose on the Sabbath.
Mat 28:1 In the END OF THE SABBATH, as it began to dawn toward the
first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see
the sepulchre.
Mat 28:2 And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of
the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone
from the door, and sat upon it.
Mat 28:3 His countenance was like lightning, and his raiment white as
snow:
Mat 28:4 And for fear of him the keepers did shake, and became as
dead men.
Mat 28:5 And the angel answered and said unto the women, Fear not ye:
for I know that ye seek Jesus, which was crucified.
Mat 28:6 HE IS NOT HERE: for HE IS RISEN, as he said. Come, see the
place where the Lord lay.
For easy study, you should download the e-sword bible program, which
will give you access to the BDB (Brown-Driver-Briggs) Hebrew lexicon,
the Strong's Hebrew and Greek lexicons, Thayer's Greek words, and lots
of bible versions, bible dictionaries like Smith's and Easton's, and
commentaries.
Many of them are free (all of these are that I've listed), and they
are all keyed to each other. For instance if you have a particular
bible dictionary clicked on, and then click on a word in one of the
Bible versions, the dictionary will pull up the word if it is covered
in the dictionary. With the commentaries, if a commentary is chosen,
it automatically changes along with the particular verse chosen in the
bible version's section.
You can compare a single verse in all bible versions you've downloaded
under Compare, or look at four different Bible versions at once under
Parallel. It's a great program.
You can even download the ancient documents of the early church
fathers and the historian Josephus' The War of the Jews, and
Antiquities of the Jews, which wind up stored under Topic Notes at the
right bottom of the screen.
When you first download the main base, it gives you the Strong's and
the KJV Bible keyed to the Strong's; then you add the other programs
by downloading and running them. They are really fast downloads, and
when you restart e-sword, the additions are there in the main program.
This is a much better program than I've seen anywhere else, and you
don't have to be online like you do with ones available to use on the
Internet.
You used to have to pay for Vine's Expository Dictionary of New
Testament Words (a good one) on e-sword (probably still do), but there
is a free one to use online at - http://www.antioch.com.sg/bible/vines/
Linda Lee
> "LuckyLuke" <fontanal...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:hhlugm$gnf$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>
>
>
>
>
> > "duke" <duckgumb...@cox.net> ha scritto nel messaggio
> >news:77ssj5p0kjch40qjq...@4ax.com...
> >> On Fri, 1 Jan 2010 21:57:38 +0100, "LuckyLuke" <fontanal...@hotmail.com>
> >> wrote:
>
> >>>"Linda Lee" <lindagirl...@juno.com> ha scritto nel messaggio
> >>>news:2bb7c9f4-3264-4c53...@l2g2000vbg.googlegroups.com...
>
> >>>Thank you for your post. I read almost all.
>
> >>>I'm doing some study about this topic. I may need some help. Can you
> >>>write
> >>>me at my email address, please? I want to ask you some question in
> >>>private.
>
> >> What's the matter? Afraid to discuss them in public?
>
> > I don't have anything to discuss. It's just that i may need more
> > information about that study, for my "private" study.
>
> > I don't study in public. I study in private and whatever are the results
> > of my "personal" and "private" studies i may decide to keep them for
> > myself and not to share.
>
> Don't study with people who are not good students themselves. You should
> look at this page, which gives references to all the texts that have "the
> first day of the week", and which taken in conjunction demonstrate CLEARLY
> that Jesus rose on a Sunday, and that Sunday Christian worship was THE day
> of worship for the frist Christian churches.
>
>
> Chuck
Do you even read the links you provide? It only lists four of the five
verses I already listed (which do NOT say the first "day of the week"
in the Greek texts), and says bluntly that there is NO scriptural
support for worship on Sunday. So I guess you're saying the same?
From http://www.carm.org/religious-movements/seventh-day-adventism/scriptu...
"The Seventh-day Adventists do not believe that there is any
scriptural support for worship on Sunday. Though there is no explicit
NT statement authenticating Sunday worship, there are plenty of verses
dealing with Sunday, the first day of the week, as being special, a
day of breaking bread, and of gathering collections.
1. Jesus rose from the dead on the first day of the week (Matt.
28:1-7; Mark 16:2, 9; Luke 24:1; John 20:1).
2. Jesus appeared to the disciples on the first day of the week
(John 20:19).
3. Jesus appeared inside the room to the eleven disciples eight
days after the first day of the week. The Jewish way of measuring
days meant that it was again Sunday
(John 20:26).
4. The Holy Spirit came on Pentecost, the first day of the week
(Lev. 23:16; Acts 2:1).
5. The first sermon was preached by Peter on the first day of the
week (Acts 2:14).
6. Three thousand converts joined the church on the first day of
the week (Acts 2:41).
7. The three thousand were baptized on the first day of the week
(Acts 2:41).
8. The Christians assembled broke bread on the first day of the
week.
9. The Christians also heard a message from Paul on the first day
of the week (Acts 20:7). Note: the reference is until midnight which
is not the Jewish method of measuring days, but the Roman system.
10. Paul instructed the churches to put aside contributions on the
first day of the week
(1 Cor. 16:2).
11. Jesus gave the apostle John the vision of Revelation on the
first day of the week
(Rev. 1:10).1"
By the way, # 11 is not necessarily proof of a reference to the first
day of the week - Sunday, since it says only, "I was in the Spirit on
the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a
trumpet" (Rev. 1:10), and we don't know what John considered "the
Lord's Day".
Linda Lee
> "Linda Lee" <lindagirl...@juno.com> ha scritto nel messaggionews:2bb7c9f4-3264-4c53...@l2g2000vbg.googlegroups.com...
>
> Thank you for your post. I read almost all.
>
> I'm doing some study about this topic. I may need some help. Can you write
> me at my email address, please? I want to ask you some question in private.
Luke,
P.S. Actually, it is very appropriate that Christ was both dead and
risen on the Sabbath of the Passover since he was "the Lamb [of God]
slain from the foundation of the world" (i.e. determined as the
Saviour since the Creation), and it was the PASSOVER Sabbath - the
Passover involving lamb's blood being placed on the doors of the
Israelites whose homes were 'passed over' when the firstborn children
of all the Egyptians were slain by the angel.
Of the holy day of Passover - Exo. 12:27, "That ye shall say, It is
the sacrifice of the LORD'S passover, who passed over the houses of
the children of Israel in Egypt, when he smote the Egyptians, and
delivered our houses. And the people bowed the head and worshipped".
Exo. 12:12, "For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night, and
will smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast;
and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the
LORD.
Exo 12:13 And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses
where ye are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the
plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of
Egypt."
Rev. 13:8, "...the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation
of the world".
Linda Lee
> "LuckyLuke" <fontanal...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:hhm4hi$24p$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Chuck" <shellstamf...@cox.net> ha scritto nel messaggio
> >news:3cw%m.913$ZB2...@newsfe13.iad...
>
> >> "LuckyLuke" <fontanal...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> >>news:hhlugm$gnf$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>
> >>> "duke" <duckgumb...@cox.net> ha scritto nel messaggio
> >>>news:77ssj5p0kjch40qjq...@4ax.com...
> >>>> On Fri, 1 Jan 2010 21:57:38 +0100, "LuckyLuke"
>
> >>>>>"Linda Lee" <lindagirl...@juno.com> ha scritto nel messaggio
> >>>>>news:2bb7c9f4-3264-4c53...@l2g2000vbg.googlegroups.com...
>
> >>>>>Thank you for your post. I read almost all.
>
> >>>>>I'm doing some study about this topic. I may need some help. Can you
> >>>>>write
> >>>>>me at my email address, please? I want to ask you some question in
> >>>>>private.
>
> >>>> What's the matter? Afraid to discuss them in public?
>
> >>> I don't have anything to discuss. It's just that i may need more
> >>> information about that study, for my "private" study.
>
> >>> I don't study in public. I study in private and whatever are the results
> >>> of my "personal" and "private" studies i may decide to keep them for
> >>> myself and not to share.
>
> >> Don't study with people who are not good students themselves. You should
> >> look at this page, which gives references to all the texts that have "the
> >> first day of the week", and which taken in conjunction demonstrate
> >> CLEARLY that Jesus rose on a Sunday, and that Sunday Christian worship
> >> was THE day of worship for the frist Christian churches.
>
>
> >> Chuck
>
> > He or she may be a bad student, but you...............seventh day
> > adventism.................NO COMMENT........................
>
> You misunderstood. I'm not a Seventh Day Adventist. I do understand that
> expertise need not be infallible to be expertise. If you don't like the
> site, find one published by GREEK SCHOLARS who can assure you what all those
> passages that contain the phrase "on the first day of the week" in English
> actually mean in Greek. Linda can't do that, although she likes to think
> she can.
>
> Chuck
What is with all these false implications in three different posts
just because you don't like the content of my post, Chuck? ("not good
students themselves", "Linda doesn't read, let alone TEACH Greek!", "
Linda can't do that, although she likes to think she can.")
I have never said I am an expert in Greek or Hebrew. What I do is post
the definitions of the Greek and Hebrew words used in the Scriptures
from available sources. Nothing more. If you don't like the
implications of these dictionaries' definitions, it is not my fault
what they say.
And speaking of "not being a good student", the link you provided
refuted what you say and listed only four of the five verses I found
using "day of the week".
Linda Lee
> "dolf" <dolfb...@grapple.id.au> wrote in message
>
> news:O4x%m.66256$ze1....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>
> > That was a Godless snigger against seventh-day adventists LuckyLuke.
>
> > Chuck is quoting a 3rd party www-site.
>
> And I could have done a better job than citing the site of a controversial
> denomination like the 7th Day Adventist's. A more general site would have
> been better, and would have basically made the same argument and been
> equally authoritative.
>
> Chuck
A "more general site" would also have made the "same argument and been
equally authoritative", which 'authoritative argument' was, "The
Seventh-day Adventists do not believe that there is any scriptural
support for worship on Sunday, and "there is no explicit NT statement
authenticating Sunday worship"???
You should have read the link's contents since you're directing other
people to it.
>
>
>
> > On 2/01/10 11:38 AM, LuckyLuke wrote:
>
> >> "Chuck" <shellstamf...@cox.net> ha scritto nel messaggio
> >>news:3cw%m.913$ZB2...@newsfe13.iad...
> >>> Don't study with people who are not good students themselves. You
> >>> should look at this page, which gives references to all the texts that
> >>> have "the first day of the week", and which taken in conjunction
> >>> demonstrate CLEARLY that Jesus rose on a Sunday, and that Sunday
> >>> Christian worship was THE day of worship for the frist Christian
> >>> churches.
>
> >>>http://www.carm.org/religious-movements/seventh-day-adventism/scriptu...
Mordecai
Linda Lee wrote:
Information ...
1) Days of week in Hebrew ...
Day one = Sunday
Day two = Monday
Day three = Tuesday
Day four = Wednesday
Day five = Thursday
Day six = Friday.
Shabbat = Saturday
Shabbat is also any day which is specified as a holiday like the first and last
day of passover, no matter which day of the week they fall upon.
Thus you can have two sabbaths in a week. Occasionally these holiday also falls
on the normal sabbath.
You can look at the times when you have two sabbaths in a row ... and also the
times when a sabbath day has normal sabbath plus holiday sabbath on the same day.
Information. The Early Christian church always worshipped on Sabbath except for
Alexandria.
I can't remember when this became an issue but I can remember the effort by mary
queen of Scots to change the day of worship in Scotland.
--
Mordecai!
When words and actions disagree, believe actions.
When rhetoric and reality disagree, either rhetoric is wrong or reality is wrong,
and reality is Never wrong.
Linda Lee
On Jan 1, 11:24 pm, "Sam taylor" <cyg...@cncnet.com> wrote:
> Actualy He died on Wednesday afternoon at about 4:30PM it was the Yearly
> a weekly sabboth.
> He was in the grave for 3 days not 1 day
> 2 types of sabboths a Weekly sabboth Saturday, and a Yearly high Sabboth
> that could befall on Any day of the week
True. In 2009, the yearly sabbath day of PASSOVER corresponded to our
April 8th at sunset (a Wednesday). In 2010 it will begin at sunset
March 29th (a Monday).
It is also true that the holy days are also called sabbaths no matter
which day they occur. Here the Day of Atonement is called a "sabbath
of rest":
Lev 16:29 And this shall be a statute for ever unto you: that __in
the seventh month, on the tenth day of the month,__ ye shall afflict
your souls, and do no work at all, whether it be one of your own
country, or a stranger that sojourneth among you:
Lev 16:30 For on that day shall the priest make an ATONEMENT for you,
to cleanse you, that ye may be clean from all your sins before the
LORD.
Lev 16:31 It shall be a __SABBATH OF REST__ unto you, and ye shall
afflict your souls, by a statute for ever.
...
Lev 16:34 And this shall be an everlasting statute unto you, to make
an atonement for the children of Israel for all their sins once a
year. And he did as the LORD commanded Moses.
I suppose everyone is interested in when Christ rose from the dead
because they/we assume that is the proper day of worship as that was
one of the excuses given when the day of worship was first changed to
Sunday.
But the feast of unleavened bread begins with the day of Passover's
yearly Sabbath; that is SIGNIFICANT because Christ was the "Lamb [of
God] slain from the foundation of the world" (Rev. 13:8) i.e. ordained
as the Saviour from the time of the Creation. The day of Christ's
death is what God seems to think is an important day because it was
his death that "taketh away the sin of the world" (John 1:29), and it
was by his "death ...he bare the sin of many" (Isa. 53:12).
Christ had to be killed on the day (24 hour period from sundown to
sundown) of the PASSOVER because his death caused God to overlook our
sins and allow us to live eternally (just as the blood of the Passover
lamb on the doorposts of the Israelites caused their homes to be
passed over when God brought death to the firstborn children of the
Egyptians).
PASSOVER:
Exo 12:12 For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night, and
will smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast;
and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the
LORD.
Exo 12:13 And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses
where ye are: and when I see the blood, I will PASS OVER YOU, and the
plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of
Egypt.
Exo 12:14 And this day shall be unto you for a memorial; and ye shall
keep it a feast to the LORD throughout your generations; ye shall keep
it a feast by an ordinance for ever.
...
Exo 12:23 For the LORD will pass through to smite the Egyptians; and
when he seeth the blood upon the lintel, and on the two side posts,
the LORD will pass over the door, and will not suffer the destroyer to
come in unto your houses to smite you.
Exo 12:24 And ye shall observe this thing for an ordinance to thee
and to thy sons for ever.
Exo 12:25 And it shall come to pass, when ye be come to the land
which the LORD will give you, according as he hath promised, that ye
shall keep this service.
Exo 12:26 And it shall come to pass, when your children shall say
unto you, What mean ye by this service?
Exo 12:27 That ye shall say, It is the sacrifice of the LORD'S
passover, who PASSED OVER the houses of the children of Israel in
Egypt, when he smote the Egyptians, and delivered our houses. And the
people bowed the head and worshipped.
(Remember that Passover begins at sundown and ends on sundown.) Look
at Mark Chapter Fourteen and Fifteen below (where Christ prophesies at
the 'last supper' on Passover that "this night" the shepherd/Christ
would be 'smited', he then prays, was arrested, tried, and condemned
to death by the priests that night and in the morning he was delivered
to Pilate, crucified during the "feast" of Passover and died nine
hours later) . Christ was not held in prison at all.
As soon as Christ and the apostles had finished the Passover meal (the
"last supper") and he had prayed, Christ was betrayed, arrested, tried
on charges using false witness (crooked "kangaroo courts" are very
brief) and quickly tortured and crucified, because the chief priests
wanted to finish up and enjoy the Passover celebration meal themselves
(John 18:28 following).
John 18:28 "Then led they Jesus from Caiaphas unto the hall of
judgment: and it was early; and they themselves went not into the
judgment hall, lest they should be defiled; but that they might eat
the passover".
Mar 14:16 And his disciples went forth, and came into the city, and
found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the PASSOVER.
Mar 14:17 And in the evening he cometh with the twelve.
Mar 14:18 And as they sat and did eat, Jesus said, Verily I say unto
you, One of you which eateth with me shall betray me.
...
Mar 14:24 And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new
testament, which is shed for many.
...
Mar 14:27 And Jesus saith unto them, All ye shall be offended because
of me THIS NIGHT: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and
the sheep shall be scattered.
...
Mar 14:41 And he cometh the third time, and saith unto them, Sleep on
now, and take your rest: it is enough, the HOUR IS COME; behold, the
Son of man is betrayed into the hands of sinners.
...
Mar 14:43 And IMMEDIATELY, while he yet spake, cometh Judas, one of
the twelve, and with him a great multitude with swords and staves,
from the chief priests and the scribes and the elders.
Mar 14:42 Rise up, let us go; lo, he that betrayeth me is at hand.
Mar 14:46 And they laid their hands on him, and took him.
...
Mar 14:53 And they led Jesus away to the high priest: and with him
were assembled all the chief priests and the elders and the scribes.
...
Mar 14:57 And there arose certain, and bare false witness against
him, saying,
...
Mar 14:64 Ye have heard the blasphemy: what think ye? And they all
CONDEMNED HIM to be guilty of death.
Mar 15:1 And straightway IN THE MORNING the chief priests held a
consultation with the elders and scribes and the whole council, and
bound Jesus, and carried him away, and delivered him to Pilate.
Mar 15:2 And Pilate asked him, Art thou the King of the Jews? And he
answering said unto him, Thou sayest it.
Mar 15:3 And the chief priests accused him of many things: but he
answered nothing.
Mar 15:4 And Pilate asked him again, saying, Answerest thou nothing?
behold how many things they witness against thee.
Mar 15:5 But Jesus yet answered nothing; so that Pilate marvelled.
Mar 15:6 Now AT THAT FEAST [The PASSOVER feast] he released unto them
one prisoner, whomsoever they desired.
...
Mar 15:12 And Pilate answered and said again unto them, What will ye
then that I shall do unto him whom ye call the King of the Jews?
Mar 15:13 And they cried out again, Crucify him.
Mar 15:14 Then Pilate said unto them, Why, what evil hath he done?
And they cried out the more exceedingly, Crucify him.
Mar 15:15 And so Pilate, willing to content the people, released
Barabbas unto them, and delivered Jesus, when he had scourged him, to
be crucified.
He died the ninth hour after he was crucified:
Mar 15:32 Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross,
that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him
reviled him.
Mar 15:33 And when the sixth hour was come, there was darkness over
the whole land until the ninth hour.
Mar 15:34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice,
saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My
God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
Mar 15:35 And some of them that stood by, when they heard it, said,
Behold, he calleth Elias.
Mar 15:36 And one ran and filled a spunge full of vinegar, and put it
on a reed, and gave him to drink, saying, Let alone; let us see
whether Elias will come to take him down.
Mar 15:37 And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost.
LuckyLuke
"Linda Lee" <lindag...@juno.com> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:ba2e8bf1-db0f-4bfe...@h9g2000yqa.googlegroups.com...
On Jan 1, 3:57 pm, "LuckyLuke" <fontanal...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> "Linda Lee" <lindagirl...@juno.com> ha scritto nel
> messaggionews:2bb7c9f4-3264-4c53...@l2g2000vbg.googlegroups.com...
>
> Thank you for your post. I read almost all.
>
> I'm doing some study about this topic. I may need some help. Can you write
> me at my email address, please? I want to ask you some question in
> private.
You can e-mail anyone privately on Google Groups by clicking on Reply
to Author. But I am no expert on this subject; I am just in the habit
of checking out the Strong's, BDB's, and Thayer's lexicon's
definitions of the Greek and Hebrew words translated in the KJV Bible,
and noticed that "week" is translated from the Greek word for Sabbath,
and "day" is in italics indicating it was added to the text.
Ok. Thank you.
May i ask you why are you interested in this subject/topic?
Donna Kupp
> Five times in the New Testament gospels of Mark, John, Luke, and
> Matthew the translators changed the Greek word for Sabbath to "week"
> and added the word "day" to make it look as if Christ rose on the
> first day of the week - Sunday, rather than Saturday, the Jewish
> Sabbath (in particular the first Sabbath of the Passover, Passover
> being a seven-day observance, beginning and ending with a Sabbath
> day).
>
> Mark 16:2 says, "And very early in the morning the first [day] of the
> week [Sabbath], they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the
> sun".
>
> Mark 16:2 And 2532 very 3029 early in the morning 4404 the 3588 first
> 3391 day of the 3588 week, 4521 they came 2064 unto 1909 the 3588
> sepulcher 3419 at the rising 393 of the 3588 sun. 2246
>
> Here in Mark 16:2 the word "day" is in italics (supplied by the
> translators). And the word translated "week" is from Gk. 4521 -
> meaning "Of Hebrew origin [Heb. 7676]; the Sabbath (that is,
> Shabbath), or day of weekly repose from secular avocations (also the
> observance or institution itself)".
>
> So the text of Mark 16:2 actually says, "And very early in the morning
> the first of the Sabbath, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising
> of the sun".
>
> Mark 16:9 says, "Now when [Jesus] was risen early the first [day] of
> the week [Sabbath], he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom
> he had cast seven devils".
>
> You can see by the following text with Strong's numbers, there are no
> Greek words for "when Jesus was" (only Gk. 450 - a definition of
> "risen") or for the word "day", so the Greek text actually says only
> "Now risen at dawn on the first of the Sabbath appeared firstly to
> Mary Magdalene".
>
> Mark 16:9 - Now 1161 when Jesus was risen 450 early 4404 the first
> 4413 [day] of the week, 4521 he appeared 5316 first 4412 to Mary 3137
> Magdalene, 3094 out of 575 whom 3739 he had cast 1544 seven 2033
> devils. 1140
>
> The word "early" - Gk. 4404 - means "at dawn".
>
> The word translated "first" - Gk. 4413 - "foremost (in time, place,
> order or importance).
>
> The word translated "week" - Gk. 4521 - is "Of Hebrew origin [Heb.
> 7676]; the Sabbath (i.e. Shabbath), or day of weekly repose from
> secular avocations (also the observance or institution itself; by
> extension a se'nnight, that is, the interval between two Sabbaths;
> likewise the plural in all the above applications)".
>
> So the text of Mark 16:9 actually says, "Now risen early the first of
> the Sabbath, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had
> cast seven devils".
>
> Here is another instance in the New Testament's Gospel of John where
> the word "week" is substituted for the word for Sabbath:
>
> John 20:1 says, "The first [day] of the week [Sabbath] cometh Mary
> Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth
> the stone taken away from the sepulchre."
>
> John 20:1 - The 3588 first 3391 day of the 3588 week 4521 cometh 2064
> Mary 3137 Magdalene 3094 early, 4404 when it was 5607 yet 2089 dark,
> 4653 unto 1519 the 3588 sepulcher, 3419 and 2532 seeth 991 the 3588
> stone 3037 taken away 142 from 1537 the 3588 sepulcher. 3419
>
> Here also in John's gospel, the word "day" is in italics (supplied by
> the translators). And the word translated "week" is from Gk. 4521 -
> meaning "Of Hebrew origin [Heb. 7676]; the Sabbath (that is,
> Shabbath), or day of weekly repose from secular avocations (also the
> observance or institution itself; by extension a se'nnight, that is,
> the interval between two Sabbaths; likewise the plural in all the
> above applications)".
>
> The text of John 20:1 actually says, "The first of the Sabbath cometh
> Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and
> seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre."
>
> Here is another instance in the New Testament's Gospel of Luke where
> the word "week" is substituted for the word for Sabbath:
>
> Luke 24:1 "Now upon the first [day] of the week [Sabbath], very early
> in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices
> which they had prepared, and certain others with them."
>
> Luke 24:1 - Now 1161 upon the 3588 first 3391 day of the 3588 week,
> 4521 very early in the morning,901, 3722 they came2064 unto1909
> the3588 sepulcher,3418 bringing5342 the spices759 which3739 they had
> prepared,2090 and2532 certain5100 others with4862 them.846
>
> Here also in Luke the word "day" is in italics (supplied by the
> translators). And the word translated "week" is from Gk. 4521 -
> meaning "Of Hebrew origin [H7676]; the Sabbath (that is, Shabbath), or
> day of weekly repose from secular avocations (also the observance or
> institution itself; by extension a se'nnight, that is, the interval
> between two Sabbaths; likewise the plural in all the above
> applications)".
>
> The text of Luke 24:1 actually says, "Now upon the first of the
> Sabbath, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre,
> bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with
> them."
>
> Here again is another instance in the New Testament's Gospel of
> Matthew where the word "week" is substituted for the word for Sabbath
> (The text actually once includes the word "sabbath", but in the same
> sentence translates another instance of "sabbath" as "week":
>
> Matt. 28:1 says, "In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn
> toward the first [day] of the week [Sabbath], came Mary Magdalene and
> the other Mary to see the sepulchre".
>
> 2020 toward 1519 the first 3391 day of the week, 4521 came 2064 Mary
> 3137 Magdalene 3094 and 2532 the 3588 other 243 Mary 3137 to see 2334
> the 3588 sepulcher. 5028
>
> The word translated 'end' - Gk. 3796 - "From the same as Gk. 3694
> (through the idea of backwardness); (adverbially) late in the day; by
> extension after the close of the day".
>
> The Hebrew day begins the previous day at sundown, so it was "late in
> the day" when it was dawn on the first of the Sabbath.
>
> Here also in Matthew the word "day" is in italics (supplied by the
> translators). And again, the word translated "week" is Gk. 4521 -
> meaning "Of Hebrew origin [Heb. 7676]; the Sabbath (that is,
> Shabbath), or day of weekly repose from secular avocations (also the
> observance or institution itself; by extension a se'nnight, that is,
> the interval between two Sabbaths; likewise the plural in all the
> above applications)".
>
> So the text of Matt 28:1 actually says, “Late in the day of the
> Sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first of the Sabbath, came
> Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre”.
>
> The Christ, Yahashua` the Messiah, arose on the Sabbath day, NOT on a
> Sunday.
Donna Kupp writes:
Christ arose on the "morrow after the sabbath" of Nisan 15 --not the
day after the weekly sabbath. Christ arose on the first of the weeks
that began the count to Pentecost.
According to Vine, Sabbaton is used in the plural in the phrase "the
first day of the week."
When we omit the word "day" (that was added by the translators ,) it
would correctly read "the first of the weeks."
Passover is calculated from the appearance of the NEW MOON of Nisan.
When Christ rose from the dead, he fulfilled this scripture*:
"Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye be come
into the land which I give unto you, and shall reap the harvest
thereof, then ye shall bring a sheaf of the firstfruits of your
harvest unto the priest: And he shall wave the sheaf before the LORD,
to be accepted for you: on the MORROW AFTER THE SABBATH the priest
shall wave it." Leviticus 23:10-11
The phrase "morrow after the sabbath" always refers to the sabbaths of
the Jewish festivals and not the weekly sabbath.
Since some people ask why do you think Easter is celebrated on Sunday?
I will tell you why: "Easter was introduced into the apostate Western
religion, as part of the attempt to adapt Pagan festivals to
Christianity."
Donna Kupp
* "But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits
of them that slept."1 Corinthians 15:20
"For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how
that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he
was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the
scriptures:" 1 Corinthians 15:3-4
dk
The Seven Deadly Deceptions Of Counterfeit Christianity
http://www.freetruth.info
Linda Lee
> "Linda Lee" <lindagirl...@juno.com> ha scritto nel messaggionews:ba2e8bf1-db0f-4bfe...@h9g2000yqa.googlegroups.com...
I am interested in most subjects covered in the Scriptures, but like I
said, I'm no expert on the subject of the Sabbath. The idea of the
Sabbath is that a day of rest and worship is needed every seven days,
so I'm not even SURE that it matters which seventh day is observed as
a day of rest, since we're all born on different days of the week, and
especially since Gentiles go by the Gregorian calendar, not the Hebrew
one. Then again, perhaps it has to be observed every Friday night to
Saturday night. Myself, I try to observe the Saturday sabbath/day of
rest, rather than the Sunday one, just to be safe. Why are you
interested in it? Are you trying to decide between Saturday and
Sunday 'sabbath'?
Although Matt. 28:1 does indicate the Messiah was already risen at the
end of the Sabbath, I guess I am more interested that the Messiah died
on the Passover (another special sabbath as it is a holy day), as it
applies to the 'passover lamb' and the Messiah being the Lamb of God
that takes away the sin of the world.
Here is another interesting note concerning the crucifixion, the
correlation the Messiah made between the Messiah being lifted up on
the cross to draw all to him for eternal life in comparison to Moses
'lifting up the serpent' in the wilderness.
In John 12:32-33 the Messiah says of his impending crucifixion, “And
I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all [men] unto me. This
he said, signifying what death he should die”.
In John 3:14-15 the Messiah said, “And AS MOSES LIFTED UP THE SERPENT
in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That
whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.”
Moses 'lifting up the serpent' had everything to do with forgiveness
of sins so that one might live.
God had sent 'fiery serpents' (fiery indicating a burning sensation
from their bite) in the midst of the Israelites, poisonous serpents
that were killing them because they had “sinned” by complaining
against God.
After the people repented, God told Moses to make a serpent of brass
and place it upon a pole where it could be seen, and God told Moses
that any Israelites that had been disobedient (and so had been bitten
by the “fiery”/poisonous serpents God had sent to punish them) who
LOOKED UPON THE BRASS SERPENT that God told Moses to LIFT UP (set up
on a pole) WOULD LIVE and not die from the effects of the poisonous
serpents.
That is why Moses 'lifting up the serpent' is symbolic of the fact
that anyone who repents and looks upon, turns to, the Messiah who was
lifted up in crucifixion would live eternal life. This is what the
Messiah is referring to in John 3:14-15 when he compares his future
crucifixion to Moses setting up a brass serpent on a pole.
Num. 21:5-9 says, “And the people spake against God, and against
Moses, Wherefore have ye brought us up out of Egypt to die in the
wilderness? for there is no bread, neither is there any water; and our
soul loatheth this light bread. And the LORD sent FIERY SERPENTS among
the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel DIED.
Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, __WE HAVE SINNED,__ for
we have spoken against the LORD, and against thee; pray unto the LORD,
that he take away the serpents from us. And Moses prayed for the
people. And the LORD said unto Moses, MAKE thee a FIERY SERPENT, and
SET IT UPON A POLE: and it shall come to pass, that EVERY ONE THAT IS
BITTEN, WHEN HE LOOKETH UPON IT, SHALL LIVE. And Moses made a SERPENT
OF BRASS, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a
serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he
LIVED”.
Smith's Bible Dictionary: “When God punished the murmurs of the
Israelites in the wilderness, by sending among them, serpents whose
fiery bite was fatal, Moses, upon their repentance, was commanded to
make a serpent of brass, whose polished surface shone like fire, and
to set it up on the banner-pole in the midst of the people; and
whoever was bitten by a serpent had but to look up at it and live.
Num. 21:4-9. The comparison used by Christ, John 3:14-15, adds a deep
interest to this scene” – see Serpent.
In the Messiah's reference to Moses lifting up the brass serpent to
save people from the effects of being bitten by the fiery serpents,
the 'fiery serpents' signify The serpent (the serpent of Genesis
Chapter Three being symbolic of the sin of Satan, who caused the
potential for the spiritual death of 'Adam and Eve'/mankind) causing
the spiritual death of those now in the flesh who do not repent and
turn to Christ.
The correlation the Messiah is making between his crucifixion bringing
eternal life to all those who look to him to be saved and the story of
Moses and the 'fiery serpent of brass' that Moses “lifted up” (placed
on a pole) is that anyone who 'looks to Christ' (turns to him for
salvation from spiritual death) shall gain eternal life (shall live);
otherwise their spirits will die, as all have sinned and have been
symbolically 'bitten' by the 'serpent' (i.e. Satan).
Donna Kupp
> "Linda Lee" <lindagirl...@juno.com> ha scritto nel messaggionews:2bb7c9f4-3264-4c53...@l2g2000vbg.googlegroups.com...
>
> Thank you for your post. I read almost all.
>
> I'm doing some study about this topic. I may need some help. Can you write
> me at my email address, please? I want to ask you some question in private.
Regarding Christ's Resurrection:
sabbaton, #4521, must be translated weeks because it is referring to
a se'nnight; i.e. the interval between two sabbaths pertaining to the
festival sabbaths.
The Jewish calendar is lunisolar; that is, the months are reckoned
according to the moon, and the year of twelve or thirteen months,
according to the sun.
The seventh day sabbath is according to the sun. It is from sunset
of the sixth day to sunset of the seventh day.
The festival sabbaths are according to the moon. The Festal year
begins with the new moon of Nisan.
Passover = Nisan 14
Feast of Unleavened Bread = Nisan 15. (No work was done on
Nisan 15)
Wave Sheaf of FIRSTFRUITS = Nisan 16
The apostle Paul said: "... Christ died for our sins according to the
scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third
day according to the scriptures:" 1 Corinthians 15:3-4
According to the scriptures, Christ arose from the dead on Nisan 16.
Donna Kupp
Dear Reader,
More information may be found at the keep and share link under
the folder: PASSOVER/EASTER
http://www.keepandshare.com/doc/show.php?i=630302&cat=0
Chuck
"Linda Lee" <lindag...@juno.com> wrote in message
news:0ff4727f-29fe-4ce7...@a6g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
On Jan 1, 9:44 pm, "Chuck" <shellstamf...@cox.net> wrote:
> "dolf" <dolfb...@grapple.id.au> wrote in message
>
> news:O4x%m.66256$ze1....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>
> > That was a Godless snigger against seventh-day adventists LuckyLuke.
>
> > Chuck is quoting a 3rd party www-site.
>
> And I could have done a better job than citing the site of a controversial
> denomination like the 7th Day Adventist's. A more general site would have
> been better, and would have basically made the same argument and been
> equally authoritative.
>
> Chuck
Linda: A "more general site" would also have made the "same argument and
been
equally authoritative", which 'authoritative argument' was, "The
Seventh-day Adventists do not believe that there is any scriptural
support for worship on Sunday, and "there is no explicit NT statement
authenticating Sunday worship"???
Chuck: No, just the page I linked to, not the whole site.
Linda: You should have read the link's contents since you're directing
other
people to it.
Chuck: The "link's contents" were simply the page full of biblical
citations where it is made plain our Lord rose on a Sunday morn, Pentecost
was on a Sunday, and Christisans gathered to worship and give their alms on
Sundays.
LuckyLuke
I have to decide, but not for myself.
In the deep of myself i believe that God doesn't matter which day we use.
For christians, every day must be the Lord's Day. But i like to please God
by being *perfect* in whatever i do and whatever i teach to others.
Linda Lee
The "weeks" beginning to be counted the first day after the Passover,
counting seven weeks to the day of Pentecost. But he was arrested,
tried, and killed on the day of Passover (see Mark Chapters 14 & 15),
and arose on another sabbath day (see this other post -
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.messianic/msg/809555ab1ee98b54 ).
>
> According to Vine, Sabbaton is used in the plural in the phrase "the
> first day of the week."
>
> When we omit the word "day" (that was added by the translators ,) it
> would correctly read "the first of the weeks."
>
> Passover is calculated from the appearance of the NEW MOON of Nisan.
> When Christ rose from the dead, he fulfilled this scripture*:
The Passover lamb was to be killed on the day of Passover; Christ said
in three days he would be raised from the dead; and John the Baptist
announced Christ as the Lamb of God. He died on the day of Passover
(at the end of the day - dusk).
>
> "Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye be come
> into the land which I give unto you, and shall reap the harvest
> thereof, then ye shall bring a sheaf of the firstfruits of your
> harvest unto the priest: And he shall wave the sheaf before the LORD,
> to be accepted for you: on the MORROW AFTER THE SABBATH the priest
> shall wave it." Leviticus 23:10-11
>
> The phrase "morrow after the sabbath" always refers to the sabbaths of
> the Jewish festivals and not the weekly sabbath.
I looked at those verses in Leviticus.
Lev. 23:5 "In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the
LORD'S passover".
The book of Exodus says the lamb is killed on the Passover (14th day
of the first month of Nisan). But both Lev. 23:5 & Exo. 12:6 say it is
killed "at even"/"in the evening", so it looks like it was done just
before the conclusion of the Hebrew day of Passover at sundown.
The words translated "even" and "evening" in Lev. 23:5 & Exo. 12:6
respectively are both translated from the same Hebrew word - Heb. 6153
- "From Heb. 6150; dusk".
Heb. 6150 - "to grow dusky at sundown".
Exo 12:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses and Aaron in the land of
Egypt, saying,
Exo 12:2 This month shall be unto you the beginning of months: it
shall be the first month of the year to you.
Exo 12:3 Speak ye unto all the congregation of Israel, saying, In the
tenth day of this month they shall take to them every man a lamb,
according to the house of their fathers, a lamb for an house:
Exo 12:4 And if the household be too little for the lamb, let him and
his neighbour next unto his house take it according to the number of
the souls; every man according to his eating shall make your count for
the lamb.
Exo 12:5 Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first
year: ye shall take it out from the sheep, or from the goats:
Exo 12:6 And ye shall keep it up until the FOURTEENTH DAY OF THE SAME
MONTH: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill
it in the evening.
>
> Since some people ask why do you think Easter is celebrated on Sunday?
> I will tell you why: "Easter was introduced into the apostate Western
> religion, as part of the attempt to adapt Pagan festivals to
> Christianity."
"Easter" being the translation of 'pascha'/Passover in Acts 12:4.
Linda Lee
> "Linda Lee" <lindagirl...@juno.com> wrote in message
>
> news:0ff4727f-29fe-4ce7...@a6g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
> On Jan 1, 9:44 pm, "Chuck" <shellstamf...@cox.net> wrote:
>
> > "dolf" <dolfb...@grapple.id.au> wrote in message
>
> >news:O4x%m.66256$ze1....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>
> > > That was a Godless snigger against seventh-day adventists LuckyLuke.
>
> > > Chuck is quoting a 3rd party www-site.
>
> > And I could have done a better job than citing the site of a controversial
> > denomination like the 7th Day Adventist's. A more general site would have
> > been better, and would have basically made the same argument and been
> > equally authoritative.
>
> > Chuck
>
> Linda: A "more general site" would also have made the "same argument and
> been
> equally authoritative", which 'authoritative argument' was, "The
> Seventh-day Adventists do not believe that there is any scriptural
> support for worship on Sunday, and "there is no explicit NT statement
> authenticating Sunday worship"???
>
> Chuck: No, just the page I linked to, not the whole site.
I quoted only the entire page you linked to. All they did was cite
four of the five verses I also provided, which do NOT say in the Greek
what is translated in the English.
And they also simply say that he was ***already risen*** when they
arrived anyway. That does not show he was risen on that day (no matter
what day anyone wants to claim it was).
>
> Linda: You should have read the link's contents since you're directing
> other
> people to it.
>
> Chuck: The "link's contents" were simply the page full of biblical
> citations where it is made plain our Lord rose on a Sunday morn,
Again, they did not show that.
> Pentecost
> was on a Sunday, and Christisans gathered to worship and give their alms on
> Sundays.
I quoted the whole page. They didn't support that Christians
worshipped on Sunday; in fact they begin with saying, "The Seventh-day
Adventists do not believe that there is any scriptural support for
worship on Sunday. Though there is no explicit NT statement
authenticating Sunday worship, there are plenty of verses dealing with
Sunday, the first day of the week, as being special, a day of breaking
bread, and of gathering collections."
But the site did say Pentecost occurred on a Sunday, and that they
'gave alms' on Sunday. Many churches even today gather for various
reasons other than worship.
Since Pentecost is 50 days (one day plus 7 weeks counted by sabbaths)
following the Passover and Christ was killed on the evening of the
Passover, and rose three days later, it is impossible that Christ rose
on a Sunday.
duke
>Actualy He died on Wednesday afternoon at about 4:30PM it was the Yearly
>Sabboth of the 1st day of the feast of Unleavened Bread a yerly Sabboth not
>a weekly sabboth.
>He was in the grave for 3 days not 1 day
I'll go with the folks that participated.
However, how do you know that the meal itself was on the 1st day or the 6th day.
Just because Jesus spoke of making arrangement on the 1st day does not mean the
meal was on the same day.
Next, the rush to bury Jesus was because of the impending Sabbath day, which is
Friday 6pm to Saturday 6pm and no work allowed to be done.
So scripture says they ate on Thursday, went to the garden, and the soldiers
arrived to Crucify Jesus on Friday and quickly bury him.
duke
tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
>On Fri, 1 Jan 2010 20:24:08 -0800, "Sam taylor"
><cyg...@cncnet.com> spake thusly:
>
>
>> Actually He died on Wednesday afternoon at about
>> 4:30PM it was the Yearly Sabboth of the 1st day of
>> the feast of Unleavened Bread a yearly Sabboth not
>> a weekly sabboth. He was in the grave for 3 days,
>> not 1 day 2 types of sabboths a Weekly sabboth
>> Saturday, and a Yearly high Sabboth that could
>> befall on Any day of the week.
>
>Correct! And that is what people like Chuck refuse
>to understand! They insist that it was the seventh
>day Sabbath, when it was not.
>
>"Three days and three nights" can in no way be
>"a day and a half". In fact, even if you buy into
>that "part of day counts as a whole day" crap
>(which is indeed crap), it still doesn't add up!
Of course it does. The Jewish day started at 6pm.
1st day - Friday 3pm to 6pm
2nd day - Friday 6 pm to Saturday 6pm.
3rd day - whatever up to the time the women arrived.
duke
>
>"duke" <duckg...@cox.net> ha scritto nel messaggio
>news:77ssj5p0kjch40qjq...@4ax.com...
>> On Fri, 1 Jan 2010 21:57:38 +0100, "LuckyLuke" <fonta...@hotmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"Linda Lee" <lindag...@juno.com> ha scritto nel messaggio
>>>news:2bb7c9f4-3264-4c53...@l2g2000vbg.googlegroups.com...
>>>
>>>Thank you for your post. I read almost all.
>>>
>>>I'm doing some study about this topic. I may need some help. Can you write
>>>me at my email address, please? I want to ask you some question in
>>>private.
>>
>> What's the matter? Afraid to discuss them in public?
>
>I don't have anything to discuss. It's just that i may need more information
>about that study, for my "private" study.
>I don't study in public. I study in private and whatever are the results of
>my "personal" and "private" studies i may decide to keep them for myself and
>not to share.
That's fine. It just sounded like you were afraid to reveal your beliefs. By
staying private, you might just get a whole bunch of bad information.
duke
wrote:
>On Jan 1, 3:57�pm, "LuckyLuke" <fontanal...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> "Linda Lee" <lindagirl...@juno.com> ha scritto nel messaggionews:2bb7c9f4-3264-4c53...@l2g2000vbg.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> Thank you for your post. I read almost all.
>>
>> I'm doing some study about this topic. I may need some help. Can you write
>> me at my email address, please? I want to ask you some question in private.
>
>
>
>You can e-mail anyone privately on Google Groups by clicking on Reply
>to Author. But I am no expert on this subject; I am just in the habit
>of checking out the Strong's, BDB's, and Thayer's lexicon's
>definitions of the Greek and Hebrew words translated in the KJV Bible,
>and noticed that "week" is translated from the Greek word for Sabbath,
>and "day" is in italics indicating it was added to the text.
>
>But the gospel of Matthew does indicate he was already risen when they
>arrived at the end of the Sabbath day i.e. he rose on the Sabbath.
>Mat 28:1 In the END OF THE SABBATH, as it began to dawn toward the
>first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see
>the sepulchre.
At dawn "of the 1st day" is on Sunday.
God created for 6 days and rested on the seventh - a day of rest for all - no
work allowed.
duke
wrote:
>On Jan 1, 3:57�pm, "LuckyLuke" <fontanal...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> "Linda Lee" <lindagirl...@juno.com> ha scritto nel messaggionews:2bb7c9f4-3264-4c53...@l2g2000vbg.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> Thank you for your post. I read almost all.
>>
>> I'm doing some study about this topic. I may need some help. Can you write
>> me at my email address, please? I want to ask you some question in private.
>
>
>Luke,
>
>P.S. Actually, it is very appropriate that Christ was both dead and
>risen on the Sabbath of the Passover since he was "the Lamb [of God]
>slain from the foundation of the world"
A sin to work on the sabbath.
Linda Lee
> On Jan 1, 12:57 pm, "LuckyLuke" <fontanal...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > "Linda Lee" <lindagirl...@juno.com> ha scritto nel messaggionews:2bb7c9f4-3264-4c53...@l2g2000vbg.googlegroups.com...
>
> > Thank you for your post. I read almost all.
>
> > I'm doing some study about this topic. I may need some help. Can you write
> > me at my email address, please? I want to ask you some question in private.
>
> Regarding Christ's Resurrection:
>
> sabbaton, #4521, must be translated weeks because it is referring to
> a se'nnight; i.e. the interval between two sabbaths pertaining to the
> festival sabbaths.
However, our word "week" does not equate to the meaning of 'weeks'/
sabbaths as the interval between two sabbaths, one regular sabbath
following a holy day sabbath (specifically the feast of weeks/
Pentecost following the Passover. So this still doesn't equate to
'Christ rose on Sunday'. And he had already risen when they came to
the tomb on the first of 'weeks' (i.e. the first week following the
Passover).
Mark 16:2, "And very early in the morning the first [day] of the week,
they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun.
...
Mar 16:6 And he saith unto them, Be not affrighted: Ye seek Jesus of
Nazareth, which was crucified: he is risen; he IS NOT HERE: behold the
place where they laid him".
It's interesting that what we call Pentecost (the feast of weeks/
Shavuot - following 50 days after Passover) was in the Hebrew
Scripture a celebration of God giving the Ten Commandments, after
which Israel became a God-centered nation, since the Holy Spirit was
given to believers on Pentecost (50 days after Passover and the
crucifixion - remission of sins) in the New Testament.
>
> The Jewish calendar is lunisolar; that is, the months are reckoned
> according to the moon, and the year of twelve or thirteen months,
> according to the sun.
>
> The seventh day sabbath is according to the sun. It is from sunset
> of the sixth day to sunset of the seventh day.
>
> The festival sabbaths are according to the moon. The Festal year
> begins with the new moon of Nisan.
>
> Passover = Nisan 14
>
> Feast of Unleavened Bread = Nisan 15. (No work was done on
> Nisan 15)
>
> Wave Sheaf of FIRSTFRUITS = Nisan 16
>
> The apostle Paul said: "... Christ died for our sins according to the
> scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third
> day according to the scriptures:" 1 Corinthians 15:3-4
>
> According to the scriptures, Christ arose from the dead on Nisan 16.
That still doesn't answer what day of the week that might have been.
Perhaps it doesn't matter; Christians tend to want to determine it
solely to justify Sunday as the day of rest and worship.
By the way, I looked at your website, and it is very well done, well
thought out, and inspired. My only criticism is the #7 Deception's
attempt to justify Paul's statements in Col. 2:16. The 17th verse was
left out, which shows that he indeed was talking about Christ having
overcome our need to observe the sabbath and holy days in the Hebrew
Scriptures.
Your website posts only:
"COL 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink,
or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the
Sabbath days:
COL 2:18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary
humility and WORSHIPING OF ANGELS, intruding into those
things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,"
And leaves out:
Col. 2:17 "Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body [is] of
Christ".
He changed subjects in the 18th verse. And in the previous two verses,
he was saying that the holy days and sabbaths etc. had foreshadowed
events having to do with Christ and were no longer necessary to be
observed.
<begin quote>
'John Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible':
"Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come,.... By Christ, and
under the Gospel dispensation; that is, they were types, figures, and
representations of spiritual and evangelical things: the different
"meats and drinks", clean and unclean, allowed or forbidden by the
law, were emblems of the two people, the Jews and Gentiles, the one
clean, the other unclean; but since these are become one in Christ,
the distinction of meats is ceased, these shadows are gone; and also
of the different food of regenerate and unregenerate souls, the latter
feeding on impure food, the ashes and husks of sensual lusts, or their
own works, the former on the milk and meat in the Gospel, the
wholesome words of Christ; and likewise the clean meat was a shadow of
Christ himself, whose flesh is meat indeed, and whose blood is drink
indeed.
The "holy days", or "feasts" of the Jews, the feasts of tabernacles,
of the passover and Pentecost, were types of Christ; the feast of
tabernacles, though it was in remembrance of the Israelites dwelling
in tents and booths when they came out of Egypt, yet was also a
representation of the people of God dwelling in the earthly houses of
their tabernacles here on earth; and particularly of Christ's
dwelling, or tabernacling in human nature, and who likewise was born
at the time of this feast; See Gill on John 1:14. The passover, as it
was a commemoration of the deliverance of the Israelites out of Egypt,
and of God's passing over their houses when he smote the firstborn of
the Egyptians, so it was a type of Christ our passover sacrificed for
us, and was kept by Moses in the faith of him, Heb_11:28; there is a
very great resemblance, in many particulars, between Christ and the
paschal lamb; See Gill on 1Co_5:7. The feast of Pentecost, or the
feast of harvest and firstfruits, was a shadow of the firstfruits of
the Spirit, which Christ having received, gave to his disciples on
that day; and of the harvest of souls to be gathered under the Gospel
dispensation, of which the conversion of the three thousand on the day
of Pentecost was an earnest and pledge. The "new moon" was typical of
the church, which is fair as the moon, and receives all her light from
Christ the sun of righteousness; and of the renewed state of the
church under the Gospel dispensation, when the old things of the law
are passed away, and all things relating to church order, ordinances,
and discipline, are become new.
The "sabbaths" were also shadows of future things; the grand
sabbatical year, or the fiftieth year sabbath, or jubilee, in which
liberty was proclaimed throughout the land, a general release of
debts, and restoration of inheritances, prefigured the liberty we have
by Christ from sin, Satan, and the law, the payment of all our debts
by Christ, and the right we have through him to the heavenly and
incorruptible inheritance. The seventh year sabbath, in which there
was no tilling of the land, no ploughing, sowing, nor reaping, was an
emblem of salvation through Christ by free grace, and not by the works
of men; and the seventh day sabbath was a type of that spiritual rest
we have in Christ now, and of that eternal rest we shall have with him
in heaven hereafter: now these were but shadows, not real things; or
did not contain the truth and substance of the things themselves, of
which they were shadows; and though they were representations of
divine and spiritual things, yet dark ones, they had not so much as
the very image of the things; they were but shadows, and like them
fleeting and passing away, and now are gone: " <end quote>
I don't accept Paul as a valid apostle myself, and think he was wrong
in this.
Even though these things did foreshadow events fulfilled in Christ,
that doesn't mean they should not be observed, on the contrary that is
more reason for believers to observe them, especially the Sabbath said
to be an eternal covenant, and the feast of tabernacles (when Christ
was born), Pentecost/feast of weeks (when the Holy Spirit was given)
and the Passover (when Christ was crucified).
Zec. 14:16 "And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of
all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from
year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the
feast of tabernacles".
Linda Lee
> On Sat, 2 Jan 2010 01:37:29 -0800 (PST), Linda Lee <lindagirl...@juno.com>
> wrote:
>
> >On Jan 1, 3:57 pm, "LuckyLuke" <fontanal...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >> "Linda Lee" <lindagirl...@juno.com> ha scritto nel messaggionews:2bb7c9f4-3264-4c53...@l2g2000vbg.googlegroups.com...
>
> >> Thank you for your post. I read almost all.
>
> >> I'm doing some study about this topic. I may need some help. Can you write
> >> me at my email address, please? I want to ask you some question in private.
>
> >Luke,
>
> >P.S. Actually, it is very appropriate that Christ was both dead and
> >risen on the Sabbath of the Passover since he was "the Lamb [of God]
> >slain from the foundation of the world"
>
> A sin to work on the sabbath.
:-) Not for Christ.
Here the Messiah 'loosed a woman from the bonds of Satan' on the
Sabbath, so why not loose every believer from Satan and overcome the
works of the Devil entirely on the Sabbath?
Luk 13:10 And he [Yahashua` the Messiah] was teaching in one of the
synagogues on the sabbath.
Luk 13:11 And, behold, there was a woman which had a spirit of
infirmity eighteen years, and was bowed together, and could in no wise
lift up herself.
Luk 13:12 And when Jesus saw her, he called her to him, and said unto
her, Woman, thou art loosed from thine infirmity.
Luk 13:13 And he laid his hands on her: and immediately she was made
straight, and glorified God.
Luk 13:14 And the ruler of the synagogue answered with indignation,
because that Jesus had healed on the sabbath day, and said unto the
people, There are six days in which men ought to work: in them
therefore come and be healed, and not on the sabbath day.
Luk 13:15 The Lord then answered him, and said, Thou hypocrite, doth
not each one of you on the sabbath loose his ox or his ass from the
stall, and lead him away to watering?
Luk 13:16 And ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom
Satan hath bound, lo, these eighteen years, be loosed from this bond
on the sabbath day?
Luk 13:17 And when he had said these things, all his adversaries were
ashamed: and all the people rejoiced for all the glorious things that
were done by him
Linda Lee
> On Fri, 1 Jan 2010 20:24:08 -0800, "Sam taylor" <cyg...@cncnet.com> wrote:
> >Actualy He died on Wednesday afternoon at about 4:30PM it was the Yearly
> >Sabboth of the 1st day of the feast of Unleavened Bread a yerly Sabboth not
> >a weekly sabboth.
> >He was in the grave for 3 days not 1 day
>
> I'll go with the folks that participated.
>
> However, how do you know that the meal itself was on the 1st day or the 6th day.
> Just because Jesus spoke of making arrangement on the 1st day does not mean the
> meal was on the same day.
The Gospel of Mark indicates it was the same day, the Passover - Mark
14:16-18.
>
> Next, the rush to bury Jesus was because of the impending Sabbath day, which is
> Friday 6pm to Saturday 6pm and no work allowed to be done.
>
> So scripture says they ate on Thursday, went to the garden, and the soldiers
> arrived to Crucify Jesus on Friday and quickly bury him.
>
> The Dukester, American-American
> *****
> "The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
> Pope Paul VI
> *****
Read chapters 14 and 15 of Mark; it shows the Messiah and apostles ate
the Passover meal, and he was almost immediately betrayed, arrested,
tried, handed over to Pilate, and executed.
Linda Lee
> wrote:
>
>
>
> >On Jan 1, 3:57 pm, "LuckyLuke" <fontanal...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >> "Linda Lee" <lindagirl...@juno.com> ha scritto nel messaggionews:2bb7c9f4-3264-4c53...@l2g2000vbg.googlegroups.com...
>
> >> Thank you for your post. I read almost all.
>
> >> I'm doing some study about this topic. I may need some help. Can you write
> >> me at my email address, please? I want to ask you some question in private.
>
> >You can e-mail anyone privately on Google Groups by clicking on Reply
> >to Author. But I am no expert on this subject; I am just in the habit
> >of checking out the Strong's, BDB's, and Thayer's lexicon's
> >definitions of the Greek and Hebrew words translated in the KJV Bible,
> >and noticed that "week" is translated from the Greek word for Sabbath,
> >and "day" is in italics indicating it was added to the text.
>
> >But the gospel of Matthew does indicate he was already risen when they
> >arrived at the end of the Sabbath day i.e. he rose on the Sabbath.
> >Mat 28:1 In the END OF THE SABBATH, as it began to dawn toward the
> >first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see
> >the sepulchre.
>
> At dawn "of the 1st day" is on Sunday.
Again, the word "day" is NOT in the Greek texts. And the word
translated "week" does not mean week. See previous posts.
>
> God created for 6 days and rested on the seventh - a day of rest for all - no
> work allowed.
It says "in the end of the sabbath", and it also says he was ALREADY
RISEN; he was GONE.
Linda Lee
> "Linda Lee" <lindagirl...@juno.com> ha scritto nel messaggionews:b89e3324-3a6b-4ee4...@21g2000vbh.googlegroups.com...
You know the word translated 'perfect' means complete.
Matt. 5:48 "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in
heaven is perfect."
> in whatever i do and whatever i teach to others.
That is good you want to be careful you don't unintentionally preach
falsehoods. The holy days are not an easy thing to figure out or make
decisions about. Even the Karaite Jews have a different calendar
(differing by a couple of days on all the holy days) than other Jews.
Linda Lee
I quit too soon; the next verse shows that he was already dead on the
cross on the high holy day (the Passover) and that it was against
custom to allow someone to remain hanged all night:
John 19:31 "The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that
the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for
that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs
might be broken, and that they might be taken away".
'John Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible':
that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day;
which was now drawing near: according to the Jewish law, Deu_21:22 the
body of one that was hanged on a tree was not to remain all night, but
to be taken down that day and buried; though this was not always
observed; see 2Sa_21:9. What was the usage of the Jews at this time is
not certain; according to the Roman laws, such bodies hung until they
were putrefied, or eaten by birds of prey; wherefore that their land
might not be defiled, and especially their sabbath, by their remaining
on the cross, they desire to have them taken down:
for that sabbath day was an high day; it was not only a sabbath, and a
sabbath in the passover week, but it was the day in which all the
people appeared and presented themselves before the Lord in the
temple, and the sheaf of the first fruits was offered up; all which
solemnities meeting together made it a very celebrated day: it is in
the original text, "it was the great day of the sabbath"; which is the
language of the Talmudists, and who say (d),
נקרא שבת הגדול "is called the great sabbath", on account of the
miracle or sign of the passover;''
and in the Jewish Liturgy (e) there is a collect for the "great
sabbath": hence the Jews pretending a great concern lest that day
should be polluted, though they made no conscience of shedding
innocent blood". <end quote>
Linda Lee
Correction, the following verse (looks like actually I didn't quit
soon enough. LOL!):
LuckyLuke
On Jan 2, 2:30 pm, duke <duckgumb...@cox.net> wrote:
> On Sat, 2 Jan 2010 01:37:29 -0800 (PST), Linda Lee <lindagirl...@juno.com>
> wrote:
>
> >On Jan 1, 3:57 pm, "LuckyLuke" <fontanal...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >> "Linda Lee" <lindagirl...@juno.com> ha scritto nel
> >> messaggionews:2bb7c9f4-3264-4c53...@l2g2000vbg.googlegroups.com...
>
> >> Thank you for your post. I read almost all.
>
> >> I'm doing some study about this topic. I may need some help. Can you
> >> write
> >> me at my email address, please? I want to ask you some question in
> >> private.
>
> >Luke,
>
> >P.S. Actually, it is very appropriate that Christ was both dead and
> >risen on the Sabbath of the Passover since he was "the Lamb [of God]
> >slain from the foundation of the world"
>
> A sin to work on the sabbath.
:-) Not for Christ.
Here the Messiah 'loosed a woman from the bonds of Satan' on the
Sabbath, so why not loose every believer from Satan and overcome the
works of the Devil entirely on the Sabbath?
--------------
It wasn't a work...
Christ never infringed the law of the sabbath. He never worked on the
sabbath. It was the pharisee "climbing the mirrors". To not work on the
sabbath means you don't buy or sell or do anything to earn money or anything
you can do another day.
About all of the 'christians' in the world violate the commandment cause on
sunday (or saturday) they go for shopping, expecialy to buy fresh-baked
bread, wich is against the law. Jesus didn't annulled the law. The so called
'christians' are cursed because of this, in fact they doesn't really get
rest in that day...
Linda Lee
> "Linda Lee" <lindagirl...@juno.com> ha scritto nel messaggionews:38d707b3-ca1e-48ef...@j24g2000yqa.googlegroups.com...
> On Jan 2, 2:30 pm, duke <duckgumb...@cox.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Sat, 2 Jan 2010 01:37:29 -0800 (PST), Linda Lee <lindagirl...@juno.com>
> > wrote:
>
> > >On Jan 1, 3:57 pm, "LuckyLuke" <fontanal...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > >> "Linda Lee" <lindagirl...@juno.com> ha scritto nel
> > >> messaggionews:2bb7c9f4-3264-4c53...@l2g2000vbg.googlegroups.com...
>
> > >> Thank you for your post. I read almost all.
>
> > >> I'm doing some study about this topic. I may need some help. Can you
> > >> write
> > >> me at my email address, please? I want to ask you some question in
> > >> private.
>
> > >Luke,
>
> > >P.S. Actually, it is very appropriate that Christ was both dead and
> > >risen on the Sabbath of the Passover since he was "the Lamb [of God]
> > >slain from the foundation of the world"
>
> > A sin to work on the sabbath.
>
> :-) Not for Christ.
>
> Here the Messiah 'loosed a woman from the bonds of Satan' on the
> Sabbath, so why not loose every believer from Satan and overcome the
> works of the Devil entirely on the Sabbath?
>
> --------------
> It wasn't a work...
Duke was saying Christ couldn't have risen on a Sabbath because it was
'work'. I think we were both being somewhat facetious.
>
> Christ never infringed the law of the sabbath. He never worked on the
> sabbath.
He didn't discourage it; the apostles with him picked corn on the
Sabbath:
Luk 6:1 And it came to pass on the second sabbath after the first,
that he went through the corn fields; and his disciples plucked the
ears of corn, and did eat, rubbing them in their hands.
Luk 6:2 And certain of the Pharisees said unto them, Why do ye that
which is not lawful to do on the sabbath days?
Luk 6:3 And Jesus answering them said, Have ye not read so much as
this, what David did, when himself was an hungred, and they which were
with him;
Luk 6:4 How he went into the house of God, and did take and eat the
shewbread, and gave also to them that were with him; which it is not
lawful to eat but for the priests alone?
Luk 6:5 And he said unto them, That the Son of man is Lord also of
LuckyLuke
-------------------
Which is not a work.
They didn't pick them for collecting but to eat, cause they were hungry. Is
it illegal to eat on sabbath?
pyotr filipivich
Fri, 1 Jan 2010 12:17:21 -0800 (PST) did write/type or cause to appear
in alt.christnet.christianlife the following:
>On Jan 1, 1:58�pm, duke <duckgumb...@cox.net> wrote:
>> On Fri, 1 Jan 2010 08:50:26 -0800 (PST), Linda Lee <lindagirl...@juno.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >Mark 16:2 says, "And very early in the morning the first [day] of the
>> >week [Sabbath], they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the
>> >sun".
>>
>> The Sabbath is on the 7th day. �God created for 6 days and rested on the 7th
>> day, which is a day of rest and no work - the Sabbath.
>
>I am aware that the Sabbath is on the seventh day of the week. You
>apparently did not read the post. The word Sabbath (sabbaton in the
>Greek) is translated "week" and the word "day" was added. The Greek
>text of Mark 16:2 does NOT say the 'first day of the week' as the
>English bibles do; it says "very early in the morning the first of the
>Sabbath...".
Which means what, in the Greek of the day? What did the Man on
the Street understand that to mean?
-
pyotr filipivich
Monotheism, someone has said, offers two simple axioms:
1) There is a God.
2) It's not you.
Chuck
On Jan 2, 12:39 pm, "Chuck" <shellstamf...@cox.net> wrote:
> "Linda Lee" <lindagirl...@juno.com> wrote in message
>
> news:0ff4727f-29fe-4ce7...@a6g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
> On Jan 1, 9:44 pm, "Chuck" <shellstamf...@cox.net> wrote:
>
> > "dolf" <dolfb...@grapple.id.au> wrote in message
>
> >news:O4x%m.66256$ze1....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>
> > > That was a Godless snigger against seventh-day adventists LuckyLuke.
>
> > > Chuck is quoting a 3rd party www-site.
>
> > And I could have done a better job than citing the site of a
> > controversial
> > denomination like the 7th Day Adventist's. A more general site would
> > have
> > been better, and would have basically made the same argument and been
> > equally authoritative.
>
> > Chuck
>
> Linda: A "more general site" would also have made the "same argument and
> been
> equally authoritative", which 'authoritative argument' was, "The
> Seventh-day Adventists do not believe that there is any scriptural
> support for worship on Sunday, and "there is no explicit NT statement
> authenticating Sunday worship"???
>
> Chuck: No, just the page I linked to, not the whole site.
Linda: I quoted only the entire page you linked to. All they did was cite
four of the five verses I also provided, which do NOT say in the Greek
what is translated in the English.
Chuck: Then you didn't quote the entire page, or I made some mistake in
copying the link, because the page I tried to link to gave every instance
where the Greek was translated "first day of the week" in the New Testament.
I didn't go look at the page again, but my own software confirms there are
eight passages, not four.
Linda: And they also simply say that he was ***already risen*** when they
arrived anyway. That does not show he was risen on that day (no matter
what day anyone wants to claim it was).
Chuck: Linda, the canonical gospel accounts are all clear that no one
actually saw Jesus come out of the tomb! Only the non-canonical,
pseudoepigraphical gospels, such as the Gospel of Peter have it that there
were witnesses to Jesus actually coming out of the tomb, and their accounts
are so fantastical as to obviously be myth.
That said, the record in Matthew twarts the idea that Jesus had been risen
for a long time before the women came to the grave:
"In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the
week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre. 2 And,
behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended
from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon
it. 3 His countenance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow: 4
And for fear of him the keepers did shake, and became as dead men. 5 And the
angel answered and said unto the women, Fear not ye: for I know that ye seek
Jesus, which was crucified. 6 He is not here: for he is risen, as he said.
Come, see the place where the Lord lay." (Mt. 28)
While this does not categorically rule out your speculation that Jesus had
"****already risen*****" the PREVIOUS morning (!), and wandering the earth
unseen by any one and apparently for no good reason except to perserve your
pet theory that He was raised on the Sabbath, it certainly makes it clear it
was the INTENT of the Evangelists to give us the inference Jesus rose on
Sunday.
This is also made clear by John's account of the personal and loving
interaction between Jesus and Mary Magdalene in the garden cemetery, when
for a brief moment they were alone (John 20:11ff). Given the relationship
that existed between Jesus and His disciples, and given that in that one
day, Sunday, that is recorded in such detail by every one of the Evangelists
that Jesus appeared to ALL of His disciples, even those who had left
Jerusalem and were on the road to Emmaus (!), what could POSSIBLY explain
why Jesus would rise from the dead, hide away for at least 12 hours without
ascending to the Father, and then tell a woman He obviously loved that she
shouldn't embrace Him because He had not yet ascended to His Father???
I'm snipping the rest, because it's all apparently based on a
misunderstanding. I didn't carefully inspect the site when I found it. I
was more interested in the cites given on the page, which included not only
every instance of the phrase "first day of the week", but also any and all
passages in the New Testament in which that concept was entailed by what WAS
literally given in the passage (So their Acts 2:1, 14, and 41 citations that
don't actually have that phrase). When you first raised this idea the site
was a Seventh Day Adventist site PROMOTING Sabbath worship (which the
Seventh Day Adventists do, btw), I took your word for it initially, because,
as I said, I hadn't paid much attention, and I was reading your first reply
at about three in the morning. Now, however, after a good rest and a second
thought, I recall what CARM actually is, and it's anything BUT a Seventh Day
Adventist site, Linda. Rather, it's an orthodox Christian apologetics
ministry that loosesly holds Adventism to be a "cult". I suggest you
re-visit the page to confirm this for yourself, and cease these unfounded
allegations that the page argues FOR Sabbath worship, because all you're
accomplishing with that objection is my assurance you didn't do more than
read the first sentence!
To help you get your feet back under you in this regard, may I suggest the
following additional links to other pages on the site:
About CARM: http://www.carm.org/general-information-about-carm
Also, on the page I originally linked to, there is a box on the left hand
side of the page listing all the non-Christian cults CARM has researched and
about which they have produced pages of information (or so I gather...I
didn't look at all of them). You can access any of these pages on the cults
from any place on the site by clicking on the "Religious Movements" button
in that menu that appears on the left side of every page, including the one
linked above.
Hope this helps.
Chuck
dolf
circumstance.
Mark 16:2 - "mia ton sabbaton" (ON THE FIRST [DAY] OF THE WEEK)
Luke24:1 - "mia ton sabbaton" (ON THE FIRST [DAY] OF THE WEEK)
John 20:1 - "mia ton sabbaton" (ON THE FIRST [DAY] OF THE WEEK)
YeshuatheWay
Christ died at the same time as the lambs were slain, on the
14th...the day of preparation. That night, seders were held. Nothing
was to be left of the lamb by morning. He could not be on the cross
after sunset because of the Holiday. That is why they broke the legs
of the theives, to hasten their deaths. Christ's legs were not broken
since he was already dead. Christ was buried BEFORE sunset, still on
the 14th. He rested in the tomb on the 15th and rose after sunset
(which would already be the 16th). Also, any part of a day is counted
as a full day in second Temple Judaism. So in tomb on the 14th before
sunset, 15th and 16th ...3 days.
YeshuatheWay
>
> - Show quoted text -
The women ARRIVED at dawn. Christ had already resurrected during the
night. This is the reason the Eastern Orthodox celebrate passover
(Pascha) after sunset on Saturday evening...in fact all night.
Chuck
"dolf" <dolf...@grapple.id.au> wrote in message
news:ZnW%m.66525$ze1....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> Chuck your explanation of sabbaton meaning week is reasonable in the
> circumstance.
>
> Mark 16:2 - "mia ton sabbaton" (ON THE FIRST [DAY] OF THE WEEK)
>
> Luke24:1 - "mia ton sabbaton" (ON THE FIRST [DAY] OF THE WEEK)
>
> John 20:1 - "mia ton sabbaton" (ON THE FIRST [DAY] OF THE WEEK)
And it should be no surprise that's the case, since this is the position of
traditional Christianity since the NT was first written as far as anyone is
able to tell.
A quick note on Linda's methodology as she's stated it: there are people
who don't know any Greek or Hebrew, like Linda, but who have a built in,
sometimes even pathological mistrust of Bible translators. This is
particularly strange since the majority of the time the vast majority of the
modern English translations are very, very good. A lot of these people then
think they can "test" the translators by consulting Strong's
concordance/lexicon, and if they find a definition for the word that
conflicts with what the translators have in context, they believe they have
just found "proof" of the cabal. They don't understand that that's not how
one uses a lexicon, and that you can't "test" a translation that way. Greek
and Hebrew, like all other languages, but even more in these two, have wide
ranges of concepts represented by one word, and those various meanings will
be indicated by the syntax and context, rather than by a lexicon. Since you
have to KNOW the language to know the syntax, and thus the context in that
language, and since these folks don't, it's not long before they drift off
into serious interpretational error. Unfortunately, these folks are also,
as a group, fairly convinced their methods are sound, and are generally
highly resistant to change or evidence of error, especially if it's their
methodology that is in question.
Bottom line, if you take that Strong's out of their "toolbox", you leave
them with nothing by which to catch the evil translators out to hoodwink
them and rob them of their standing before God, so doing that is a very
tough sell.
Chuck
Chuck
"YeshuatheWay" <Yeshua...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:894244f2-0c12-4e7f...@s3g2000yqs.googlegroups.com...
Chuck: Maybe it is, maybe not. You didn't give a reference for it. You
also don't have any indication from the NT that Christ rose during the
night, and all four Evangelists write to give the distinct impression Jesus
rose just before the women arrived. So, for example...
"Matthew 28:1-6 (KJV)
1 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the
week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.
2 And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord
descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and
sat upon it.
3 His countenance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow:
4 And for fear of him the keepers did shake, and became as dead men.
5 And the angel answered and said unto the women, Fear not ye: for I know
that ye seek Jesus, which was crucified.
6 He is not here: for he is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where the
Lord lay.
Now even a careful reading of this text distinctly leaves the impression
Matthew intended to relate Jesus rose on Sunday morn sometime, and there is
absolutely nothing for Him to do until the women arrived, so why would He be
wandering around unseen by any of His disciples all night, waiting for them
to show up?
Also we have from John the heart-wrenching encounter and exchange between
Jesus and Mary:
John 20:11-17 (KJV)
11 But Mary stood without at the sepulchre weeping: and as she wept, she
stooped down, and looked into the sepulchre,
12 And seeth two angels in white sitting, the one at the head, and the other
at the feet, where the body of Jesus had lain.
13 And they say unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? She saith unto them,
Because they have taken away my Lord, and I know not where they have laid
him.
14 And when she had thus said, she turned herself back, and saw Jesus
standing, and knew not that it was Jesus.
15 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? whom seekest thou? She,
supposing him to be the gardener, saith unto him, Sir, if thou have borne
him hence, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away.
16 Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him,
Rabboni; which is to say, Master.
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my
Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father,
and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
Now if you were correct, and Jesus had risen some hours earlier, then here
He is using the fact He's got to do something He could have done at anytime
during the night to push Mary away when her heart is driving her to cling to
her beloved Lord. Does that SOUND like something Love Incarnate, just risen
in victory over lies and deceit would do??
You sure you've understood the reason the Orthodox conduct their Easter
celebration as they do? It's incorrect that they observe the Passover,
because they don't; no Catholic churches do. They celebrate "Pascha", which
they make SURE falls AFTER the Jewish Passover, and ON Sunday.
See this page:
http://www.orthodoxresearchinstitute.org/articles/liturgics/zander_christ_new_passover.htm
Makes it pretty clear the Orthodox celebration of Easter follows the ancient
custom of ANTICIPATION of the Resurrection all during the night before the
early Easter Sunday morning thanksgiving and receiving of the Euchrist.
http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-178430553.html
http://www.al-bushra.org/prayer/easter.htm
An especially good article for understanding what stands behind "Pascha" in
the Orthodox:
http://www.slocc.com/orthodoxy/churchcalendar.html
Hope that helps
Chuck
Linda Lee
Why not click on your own link? It's contents are at the bottom of
this post.
>
> Linda: And they also simply say that he was ***already risen*** when they
> arrived anyway. That does not show he was risen on that day (no matter
> what day anyone wants to claim it was).
>
> Chuck: Linda, the canonical gospel accounts are all clear that no one
> actually saw Jesus come out of the tomb!
That's my point. All they show is he was already gone when Mary
Magdelene and the other Marys arrived.
> Only the non-canonical,
> pseudoepigraphical gospels, such as the Gospel of Peter have it that there
> were witnesses to Jesus actually coming out of the tomb, and their accounts
> are so fantastical as to obviously be myth.
I don't know why you'd think anything was "fantastical" when the New
Testament contains things like:
Mat 17:1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his
brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
Mat 17:2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as
the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
Mat 17:3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias
talking with him.
>
> That said, the record in Matthew twarts the idea that Jesus had been risen
> for a long time before the women came to the grave:
>
> "In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the
> week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre. 2 And,
> behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended
> from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon
> it. 3 His countenance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow: 4
> And for fear of him the keepers did shake, and became as dead men. 5 And the
> angel answered and said unto the women, Fear not ye: for I know that ye seek
> Jesus, which was crucified. 6 He is not here: for he is risen, as he said.
> Come, see the place where the Lord lay." (Mt. 28)
No it doesn't indicate he's been risen for a long time, and if it did,
"a long time" would indicate Saturday anyway.
> While this does not categorically rule out your speculation that Jesus had
> "****already risen*****" the PREVIOUS morning (!), and wandering the earth
> unseen by any one and apparently for no good reason except to perserve your
> pet theory that He was raised on the Sabbath, it certainly makes it clear it
> was the INTENT of the Evangelists to give us the inference Jesus rose on
> Sunday.
It is your choice I guess to choose to ignore that the word translated
"week" does not mean a week, and the word day is in italics because it
was added by the translators. It's similar to claiming the Messiah's
name is Jesus based on the English version of the Greek text, or
Iesous based on the Greek text when we all know he was a Jew.
>
> This is also made clear by John's account of the personal and loving
> interaction between Jesus and Mary Magdalene in the garden cemetery, when
> for a brief moment they were alone (John 20:11ff). Given the relationship
> that existed between Jesus and His disciples, and given that in that one
> day, Sunday, that is recorded in such detail by every one of the Evangelists
> that Jesus appeared to ALL of His disciples, even those who had left
> Jerusalem and were on the road to Emmaus (!), what could POSSIBLY explain
> why Jesus would rise from the dead, hide away for at least 12 hours without
> ascending to the Father, and then tell a woman He obviously loved that she
> shouldn't embrace Him because He had not yet ascended to His Father???
That's a lot of speculation.
>
> I'm snipping the rest, because it's all apparently based on a
> misunderstanding. I didn't carefully inspect the site when I found it. I
> was more interested in the cites given on the page, which included not only
> every instance of the phrase "first day of the week",
Which I'd already supplied, plus another one they missed, in which all
of them used the phrase "day of the week" in English, with "day" in
italics because it was supplied by the translators and "week" defined
as
Gk. 4521
σάββατον
sabbaton
sab'-bat-on
"Of Hebrew origin [H7676]; the Sabbath (that is, Shabbath), or day of
weekly repose from secular avocations (also the observance or
institution itself); by extension a se'nnight, that is, the interval
between two Sabbaths; likewise the plural in all the above
applications".
> but also any and all
> passages in the New Testament in which that concept was entailed by what WAS
> literally given in the passage (So their Acts 2:1, 14, and 41 citations that
> don't actually have that phrase). When you first raised this idea the site
> was a Seventh Day Adventist site PROMOTING Sabbath worship (which the
> Seventh Day Adventists do, btw), I took your word for it initially, because,
> as I said, I hadn't paid much attention, and I was reading your first reply
> at about three in the morning. Now, however, after a good rest and a second
> thought, I recall what CARM actually is, and it's anything BUT a Seventh Day
> Adventist site, Linda.
I didn't SAY it was a Seventh-day Adventist website (that was someone
else, dolf I think, who based it on the name of the website as
http://www.carm.org/religious-movements/seventh-day-adventism/scriptu...
).
I said the following, which is quoted at the bottom of this post,
includes the entire main page of the website, and their admission
there is "no explicit NT statement authenticating Sunday worship".
Explicit statements would be something like, 'They began to worship on
Sundays and relinquished the Saturday sabbath'. None of their
examples about Sunday being a "special day" indicate worship was
performed on that day, even the day of Pentecost, the apostles were
gathered together in fear, not to worship.
***** We also know that CANNOT be true anyway that the NT reports
worship on Sunday because it was in the fourth century I believe when
the 'Sunday law' came into effect making it illegal for Christians to
worship on Saturday.*****
***** And we know that Christ taught in the synagogues on the Sabbath,
and he said the "Sabbath was made for man", not only for the
Israelites.*****
Mark 2:27 "And he [The Messiah] said unto them, The sabbath was made
for MAN, and not man for the sabbath".
Exo. 20:8, "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy."
Exo. 31:16-17, "Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the
sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a
perpetual covenant. It is a sign between me and the children of Israel
for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the
seventh day he rested, and was refreshed".
And Christians are believed to be part of Israel, joined to Israel,
are they not? In John 10:16 the Messiah said, "And other sheep I
have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they
shall hear my voice; and there shall be ONE FOLD, and one shepherd".
And the book of Acts reports Paul taught both Gentile and Jew on the
Sabbath years after the Messiah's death and resurrection:
"However, the book of Acts tells us that "when the Jews went out
of the synagogue, the Gentiles begged that these words might be
preached to them the next Sabbath" (13:42). Here was Paul's grand
opportunity to inform the Gentiles that they would now meet on Sunday!
But did he? On the contrary! "The next Sabbath almost the whole city
came together to hear the word of God" (v. 44).
The truth of the matter is that neither Paul nor ANY of the
Apostles uttered one single word about changing God's holy Sabbath or
any part of the Ten Commandments. Rather, as they had been taught by
Christ Himself, they kept, and always assembled on, the seventh day.
What about when Paul traveled through predominately Gentile
areas? God's Word tells us, "Now when they had passed through
Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where there was a
synagogue of the Jews. Then Paul, as his CUSTOM was, went in to them,
and for three Sabbaths reasoned with them from the Scriptures" ([Acts]
17:1-2).
It was clearly Paul's "custom" to meet on the Sabbath. Acts 18:4
tells us that "he reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and
persuaded both Jews and Greeks." In example after example in the book
of Acts, when Paul or the other Apostles met to worship, there is not
a single, solitary hint that they ever regularly met on any other day
of the week to worship except Saturday-the seventh-day Sabbath that
they had always observed and that the Jewish community was still
observing. " <end quote> - from
http://www.tomorrowsworld.org/cgi-bin/tw/booklets/tw-bk.cgi?category=Booklets1&item=1104414149
My entire post (which includes the entire main page of the website)
was as follows (from http://groups.google.com/group/alt.messianic/msg/724f15e4601f05be
) and says _nothing_ about the website being a Seventh-day Adventist
website, so I did not "raise the idea":
"Do you even read the links you provide? It only lists four of the
five
verses I already listed (which do NOT say the first "day of the week"
in the Greek texts), and says bluntly that there is NO scriptural
support for worship on Sunday. So I guess you're saying the same?
From http://www.carm.org/religious-movements/seventh-day-adventism/scriptu...
"The Seventh-day Adventists do not believe that there is any
scriptural support for worship on Sunday. Though there is no explicit
NT statement authenticating Sunday worship, there are plenty of verses
dealing with Sunday, the first day of the week, as being special, a
day of breaking bread, and of gathering collections.
1. Jesus rose from the dead on the first day of the week (Matt.
28:1-7; Mark 16:2, 9; Luke 24:1; John 20:1).
2. Jesus appeared to the disciples on the first day of the week
(John 20:19).
3. Jesus appeared inside the room to the eleven disciples eight
days after the first day of the week. The Jewish way of measuring
days meant that it was again Sunday
(John 20:26).
4. The Holy Spirit came on Pentecost, the first day of the week
(Lev. 23:16; Acts 2:1).
5. The first sermon was preached by Peter on the first day of the
week (Acts 2:14).
6. Three thousand converts joined the church on the first day of
the week (Acts 2:41).
7. The three thousand were baptized on the first day of the week
(Acts 2:41).
8. The Christians assembled broke bread on the first day of the
week.
9. The Christians also heard a message from Paul on the first day
of the week (Acts 20:7). Note: the reference is until midnight which
is not the Jewish method of measuring days, but the Roman system.
10. Paul instructed the churches to put aside contributions on the
first day of the week
(1 Cor. 16:2).
11. Jesus gave the apostle John the vision of Revelation on the
first day of the week
(Rev. 1:10).1"
[MY ADDITIONAL COMMENT:]
By the way, # 11 is not necessarily proof of a reference to the first
day of the week - Sunday, since it says only, "I was in the Spirit on
the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a
trumpet" (Rev. 1:10), and we don't know what John considered "the
Lord's Day"."
> Rather, it's an orthodox Christian apologetics
> ministry that loosesly holds Adventism to be a "cult". I suggest you
> re-visit the page to confirm this for yourself, and cease these unfounded
> allegations that the page argues FOR Sabbath worship, because all you're
> accomplishing with that objection is my assurance you didn't do more than
> read the first sentence!
You should read it closely yourself. They can offer no explicit NT
statements indicating the day of worship was changed to Sunday, only
indications such as Peter preached on that day or that John had a
vision on "the Lord's day", which phrase does not indicate what day of
the week that was.
Anyone clicking on your link sees this:
"The Seventh-day Adventists do not believe that there is any
scriptural support for worship on Sunday. Though there is no explicit
NT statement authenticating Sunday worship, there are plenty of verses
dealing with Sunday, the first day of the week, as being special, a
day of breaking bread, and of gathering collections.
1. Jesus rose from the dead on the first day of the week (Matt.
28:1-7; Mark 16:2, 9; Luke 24:1; John 20:1).
2. Jesus appeared to the disciples on the first day of the week
(John 20:19).
3. Jesus appeared inside the room to the eleven disciples eight
days after the first day of the week. The Jewish way of measuring
days meant that it was again Sunday
(John 20:26).
4. The Holy Spirit came on Pentecost, the first day of the week
(Lev. 23:16; Acts 2:1).
5. The first sermon was preached by Peter on the first day of the
week (Acts 2:14).
6. Three thousand converts joined the church on the first day of
the week (Acts 2:41).
7. The three thousand were baptized on the first day of the week
(Acts 2:41).
8. The Christians assembled broke bread on the first day of the
week.
9. The Christians also heard a message from Paul on the first day
of the week (Acts 20:7). Note: the reference is until midnight which
is not the Jewish method of measuring days, but the Roman system.
10. Paul instructed the churches to put aside contributions on the
first day of the week
(1 Cor. 16:2).
11. Jesus gave the apostle John the vision of Revelation on the
first day of the week
(Rev. 1:10).1"
Linda Lee
> "dolf" <dolfb...@grapple.id.au> wrote in message
>
>
> > Chuck your explanation of sabbaton meaning week is reasonable in the
> > circumstance.
>
> > Mark 16:2 - "mia ton sabbaton" (ON THE FIRST [DAY] OF THE WEEK)
>
> > Luke24:1 - "mia ton sabbaton" (ON THE FIRST [DAY] OF THE WEEK)
>
> > John 20:1 - "mia ton sabbaton" (ON THE FIRST [DAY] OF THE WEEK)
>
> And it should be no surprise that's the case, since this is the position of
> traditional Christianity since the NT was first written as far as anyone is
> able to tell.
You're both wrong (and I notice he has "DAY" in brackets indicating it
was added to the text). 'The first [day] of the week' means on 'the
first of the sabbaths' following the passover. The word translated
"week" (from sabbaton) does not equate to our word for week (meaning
seven days).
As Donna Kupp pointed out to you, the word translated "week"/sabbaton
is used in the plural there, so it refers to more than one sabbath day
in relation to the holy day of Passover being considered a sabbath. So
the 'first of the weeks' is the accurate translation, and it indicates
the first regular sabbath day following the Passover (which was NOT
after a full 7-day week).
Now does 'the first of the weeks' mean the same thing as 'the first
day of the week' or even the 'first of the week'? NO.
Donna said:
<begin quote>
"Christ arose on the first of the weeks that began the count to
Pentecost.
According to Vine, Sabbaton is used in the plural in the phrase "the
first day of the week."
When we omit the word "day" (that was added by the translators,) it
would correctly read "the first of the weeks." ...The phrase "morrow
after the sabbath" always refers to the sabbaths of the Jewish
festivals and not the weekly sabbath." <end quote>
And what difference does it make anyway? You can pretend that them
saying Mary Magdalene and the other Marys arrived to find him already
risen means he had risen _that day,_ but the text does not indicate
anything of the kind. He was killed on the day of Passover (as he was
the Lamb of God), and the Jews wanted the bodies removed so that they
were not displayed all night on the night of the Passover (a holy day
considered an additional sabbath day), which was against Mosaic law,
NOT because the regular sabbath day was about to begin.
>
> A quick note on Linda's methodology as she's stated it: there are people
> who don't know any Greek or Hebrew, like Linda, but who have a built in,
> sometimes even pathological mistrust of Bible translators. This is
> particularly strange since the majority of the time the vast majority of the
> modern English translations are very, very good. A lot of these people then
> think they can "test" the translators
You can quit pretending that I am one who likes to refute the Bible
and have a "pathological mistrust of Bible translators", Chuck.
I always use the KJV Bible, because I find it to be the most reliable
of the translations as it is the most accurate in relation to the
Greek texts. But we all know it has some translation errors in it,
such as replacing the word for Passover with Easter.
You sure do get nasty over the subject of Sunday worship, don't you?
(And that is YOUR focus, not mine, as the subject of the thread is the
day Christ rose from the dead.) If your 'proofs' were valid, you
wouldn't need to resort to that. Why don't you stick to the topic and
stop the judgmental character assassinations?
Maybe Vine's has a pathological mistrust of bible translators, and so
he lied that the word sabbaton is plural in those verses, and so
shouldn't have been translated as the singular "week". That must be
it.
Sam taylor
WORK on Passover day.
both in Preperation of the Meal, but also
removing Leaven from Your dwellings
the 1st and 7th day of the Feast of Unleavened bread are Both High (yearly)
sabbothsnews:197dac54-79c0-41c4...@u20g2000vbq.googlegroups.com...
>
> On Jan 1, 11:24 pm, "Sam taylor" <cyg...@cncnet.com> wrote:
> > Actualy He died on Wednesday afternoon at about 4:30PM it was the Yearly
not
> > a weekly sabboth.
> > He was in the grave for 3 days not 1 day
>
>
> True. In 2009, the yearly sabbath day of PASSOVER corresponded to our
> April 8th at sunset (a Wednesday). In 2010 it will begin at sunset
> March 29th (a Monday).
>
> It is also true that the holy days are also called sabbaths no matter
> which day they occur. Here the Day of Atonement is called a "sabbath
> of rest":
>
> Lev 16:29 And this shall be a statute for ever unto you: that __in
> the seventh month, on the tenth day of the month,__ ye shall afflict
> your souls, and do no work at all, whether it be one of your own
> country, or a stranger that sojourneth among you:
> Lev 16:30 For on that day shall the priest make an ATONEMENT for you,
> to cleanse you, that ye may be clean from all your sins before the
> LORD.
> Lev 16:31 It shall be a __SABBATH OF REST__ unto you, and ye shall
> afflict your souls, by a statute for ever.
> ...
> Lev 16:34 And this shall be an everlasting statute unto you, to make
> an atonement for the children of Israel for all their sins once a
> year. And he did as the LORD commanded Moses.
>
>
> I suppose everyone is interested in when Christ rose from the dead
> because they/we assume that is the proper day of worship as that was
> one of the excuses given when the day of worship was first changed to
> Sunday.
>
> But the feast of unleavened bread begins with the day of Passover's
> yearly Sabbath; that is SIGNIFICANT because Christ was the "Lamb [of
> God] slain from the foundation of the world" (Rev. 13:8) i.e. ordained
> as the Saviour from the time of the Creation. The day of Christ's
> death is what God seems to think is an important day because it was
> his death that "taketh away the sin of the world" (John 1:29), and it
> was by his "death ...he bare the sin of many" (Isa. 53:12).
>
> Christ had to be killed on the day (24 hour period from sundown to
> sundown) of the PASSOVER because his death caused God to overlook our
> sins and allow us to live eternally (just as the blood of the Passover
> lamb on the doorposts of the Israelites caused their homes to be
> passed over when God brought death to the firstborn children of the
> Egyptians).
>
>
> PASSOVER:
> Exo 12:12 For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night, and
> will smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast;
> and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the
> LORD.
> Exo 12:13 And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses
> where ye are: and when I see the blood, I will PASS OVER YOU, and the
> plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of
> Egypt.
> Exo 12:14 And this day shall be unto you for a memorial; and ye shall
> keep it a feast to the LORD throughout your generations; ye shall keep
> it a feast by an ordinance for ever.
> ...
> Exo 12:23 For the LORD will pass through to smite the Egyptians; and
> when he seeth the blood upon the lintel, and on the two side posts,
> the LORD will pass over the door, and will not suffer the destroyer to
> come in unto your houses to smite you.
> Exo 12:24 And ye shall observe this thing for an ordinance to thee
> and to thy sons for ever.
> Exo 12:25 And it shall come to pass, when ye be come to the land
> which the LORD will give you, according as he hath promised, that ye
> shall keep this service.
> Exo 12:26 And it shall come to pass, when your children shall say
> unto you, What mean ye by this service?
> Exo 12:27 That ye shall say, It is the sacrifice of the LORD'S
> passover, who PASSED OVER the houses of the children of Israel in
> Egypt, when he smote the Egyptians, and delivered our houses. And the
> people bowed the head and worshipped.
Sam taylor
on the late part of the 13th
he died on Passover day the 14th a wednesday
and was in the grave ALL DAY Thursday Friday
and Saturday. and rose after Sundown OR Near
Sundown Saturday.
being in the grave on 2 types of sabboths
Thursday a High Sabboth the 1st day of the feast of unleavened Bread the DAY
AFTER PASSOVER!!!
and the Weekly sabboth from Sundown Friday nite to the end of Sabboth
Sundown saturday.
btw there were 4 put to death with Him, 2 robbers, and
2 malifactors, boys and girls.news:17697587-8557-4308...@r5g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
Sam taylor
INSIDE THE SABBOTH as it began to Dawn
notice the Italics.
DAWN is and olde Enflish word for Began or
Begining
so INSIDE THE SABBOTH as it began to begin TOWARDS the FIRST DAY OF THE WEEK
means IT WERE NOT IN NOR ON THE FIRST DAY
of the Week.
"Chuck" <shells...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:Yl00n.15840$0U1....@newsfe16.iad...
duke
wrote:
>On Jan 2, 2:21�pm, duke <duckgumb...@cox.net> wrote:
>> On Fri, 1 Jan 2010 20:24:08 -0800, "Sam taylor" <cyg...@cncnet.com> wrote:
>> >Actualy He died on Wednesday afternoon at about 4:30PM it was the Yearly
>> >Sabboth of the 1st day of the feast of Unleavened Bread a yerly Sabboth not
>> >a weekly sabboth.
>> >He was in the grave for 3 days not 1 day
>>
>> I'll go with the folks that participated. �
>>
>> However, how do you know that the meal itself was on the 1st day or the 6th day.
>> Just because Jesus spoke of making arrangement on the 1st day does not mean the
>> meal was on the same day.
>The Gospel of Mark indicates it was the same day, the Passover - Mark
>14:16-18.
Can't be. It was absolutely a prohibition to work on the sabbath, as Jesus'
burial would have been.
>> Next, the rush to bury Jesus was because of the impending Sabbath day, which is
>> Friday 6pm to Saturday 6pm and no work allowed to be done.
>>
>> So scripture says they ate on Thursday, went to the garden, and the soldiers
>> arrived to Crucify Jesus on Friday and quickly bury him.
>Read chapters 14 and 15 of Mark; it shows the Messiah and apostles ate
>the Passover meal,
Preparation meal on Thursday.
> and he was almost immediately betrayed, arrested,
>tried, handed over to Pilate, and executed.
......the next day, Friday..
>(Remember that Passover begins at sundown and ends on sundown.)
Right, Friday 6pm until saturday 6pm.
> Look
>at Mark Chapter Fourteen and Fifteen below (where Christ prophesies at
>the 'last supper' on Passover
Prep day is Thursday. If he died on the passover, he would be in the grave less
than 1 day.
duke
wrote:
>On Jan 2, 2:30�pm, duke <duckgumb...@cox.net> wrote:
>> On Sat, 2 Jan 2010 01:09:20 -0800 (PST), Linda Lee <lindagirl...@juno.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> >On Jan 1, 3:57�pm, "LuckyLuke" <fontanal...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> >> "Linda Lee" <lindagirl...@juno.com> ha scritto nel messaggionews:2bb7c9f4-3264-4c53...@l2g2000vbg.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> >> Thank you for your post. I read almost all.
>>
>> >> I'm doing some study about this topic. I may need some help. Can you write
>> >> me at my email address, please? I want to ask you some question in private.
>>
>> >You can e-mail anyone privately on Google Groups by clicking on Reply
>> >to Author. But I am no expert on this subject; I am just in the habit
>> >of checking out the Strong's, BDB's, and Thayer's lexicon's
>> >definitions of the Greek and Hebrew words translated in the KJV Bible,
>> >and noticed that "week" is translated from the Greek word for Sabbath,
>> >and "day" is in italics indicating it was added to the text.
>>
>> >But the gospel of Matthew does indicate he was already risen when they
>> >arrived at the end of the Sabbath day i.e. he rose on the Sabbath.
>> >Mat 28:1 �In the END OF THE SABBATH, as it began to dawn toward the
>> >first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see
>> >the sepulchre.
>>
>> At dawn "of the 1st day" is on Sunday.
>Again, the word "day" is NOT in the Greek texts. And the word
>translated "week" does not mean week. See previous posts.
Greek is the first translation.
>> God created for 6 days and rested on the seventh - a day of rest for all - no
>> work allowed. �
>It says "in the end of the sabbath", and it also says he was ALREADY
>RISEN; he was GONE.
Make up your mind. If he was crucified on the sabbath, he would have come back
less than one day later.
Besides, the eye witnesses said Friday was his crucifixion date.
duke
wrote:
Then he would have risen on the passover day according to the Jews.
duke
wrote:
>On Jan 2, 2:30�pm, duke <duckgumb...@cox.net> wrote:
>> On Sat, 2 Jan 2010 01:37:29 -0800 (PST), Linda Lee <lindagirl...@juno.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >On Jan 1, 3:57�pm, "LuckyLuke" <fontanal...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> >> "Linda Lee" <lindagirl...@juno.com> ha scritto nel messaggionews:2bb7c9f4-3264-4c53...@l2g2000vbg.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> >> Thank you for your post. I read almost all.
>>
>> >> I'm doing some study about this topic. I may need some help. Can you write
>> >> me at my email address, please? I want to ask you some question in private.
>>
>> >Luke,
>>
>> >P.S. Actually, it is very appropriate that Christ was both dead and
>> >risen on the Sabbath of the Passover since he was "the Lamb [of God]
>> >slain from the foundation of the world"
>>
>> A sin to work on the sabbath.
>
>
> :-) Not for Christ.
He didn't bury himself. The Jews that were forbidden to work on the sabbath
(6pm Friday to 6pm Saturday) were forbidden to work.
I
> He didn't bury himself. The Jews that were forbidden to work on the
> sabbath
> (6pm Friday to 6pm Saturday) were forbidden to work.
So HOW did they get permission from the Romans AND bury Jesus between 3pm
and 6 pm on the Friday?
BOTH the permission AND the burial had to all take place within three hours.
Normally a crucified person was left on the cross to rot and be eaten by
scavengers. The next most common item was that the bodies would be dumped
in a mass grave. There is no archaeological evidence that a crucified
person was ever taken from a cross and buried. It would be very UNUSUAL ...
and this UNUSUAL event had to take place within 3 hours when the apostles
had fed for their lives (except if you believe John's gospel where John was
the only disciple who did not flee - highly unlikely!).
The BIG question is what a DEAD GOD does while he is dead!
--
"All things are probable. Try to believe. Really! Try to believe even if
it's bloody stupid and irrational. Why? Because I said so, that's why!
Don't ask questions. Just believe." - Mark 17: 1- 3 (MTV)
@tampabay.rr.com Pastor Dave
<cyg...@cncnet.com> spake thusly:
> Passover is NOT a sabbath
Top posting leaves people without the ability to see
exactly what you are responding to, since (and I don't
blame them) they're not going to scroll up and down
to try to find the one line that you were responding to.
I didn't even read the message, since you top posted,
since I would have no idea where your response
applies to (which sentence) and that is your fault
for top posting. This is not lazy email, there is some
netiquette involved here and no, top posting does
not make it easier, especially since unlike email,
it isn't just two people responding, but possibly
many and if each chooses their own method, then
who knows who said what, when and where what
comment goes? Hello??? :)
However, you are right when you say that Passover
was not a sabbath. :)
--
Pastor Dave
The following is part of my auto-rotating
sig file and not part of the message body.
What part of 'THOU SHALT NOT' don't you understand?
Linda Lee
> The Lambs were slain before Passover began
> on the late part of the 13th
Exodus says they were killed on the 14th.
Exo 12:6 And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same
month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill
it in the evening.
> he died on Passover day the 14th a wednesday
> and was in the grave ALL DAY Thursday Friday
> and Saturday. and rose after Sundown OR Near
> Sundown Saturday.
> being in the grave on 2 types of sabboths
> Thursday a High Sabboth the 1st day of the feast of unleavened Bread the DAY
> AFTER PASSOVER!!!
> and the Weekly sabboth from Sundown Friday nite to the end of Sabboth
> Sundown saturday.
> btw there were 4 put to death with Him, 2 robbers, and
> 2 malifactors, boys and girls."YeshuatheWay" <Yeshuathe...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
That is what Exo. 12:6 says also, but you said above it was on the
13th, the day before the Passover.
Exo 12:1 And the LORD spoke unto Moses and Aaron in the land of
Egypt, saying,
Exo 12:2 This month shall be unto you the beginning of months: it
shall be the first month of the year to you.
Exo 12:3 Speak ye unto all the congregation of Israel, saying, In the
tenth day of this month they shall take to them every man a lamb,
according to the house of their fathers, a lamb for a house:
Exo 12:4 And if the household be too little for the lamb, let him and
his neighbor next unto his house take it according to the number of
the souls; every man according to his eating shall make your count for
the lamb.
Exo 12:5 Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first
year: ye shall take it out from the sheep, or from the goats:
Exo 12:6 And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same
month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill
it in the evening.
Exo 12:7 And they shall take of the blood, and strike it on the two
side posts and on the upper door post of the houses, wherein they
shall eat it.
Exo 12:8 And they shall eat the flesh in that night, roast with fire,
and unleavened bread; and with bitter herbs they shall eat it.
Linda Lee
> On Sun, 3 Jan 2010 01:58:49 -0800 (PST), YeshuatheWay <Yeshuathe...@yahoo.com>
The Messiah was "the Lamb of God"; THE Passover Lamb whose BLOOD
reprieved us from sin and its effects, death of the Spirit, JUST LIKE
the blood of the Passover lamb reprieved the firstborn of the
Israelites from death. The Messiah died on the Passover; he had to in
order to be the Passover lamb.
John 1:29 says, "The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and
saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the
world".
Linda Lee
> Passover is NOT a sabbath, as You are commanded to
> WORK on Passover day.
"In Israel, Passover is the seven-day holiday of the Feast of
Unleavened Bread, with the first and last days observed as legal
holidays and as holy days involving abstention from work, special
prayer services, and holiday meals; the intervening days are known as
Chol HaMoed ("festival days"). " - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passover
> both in Preperation of the Meal, but also
> removing Leaven from Your dwellings
> the 1st and 7th day of the Feast of Unleavened bread are Both High (yearly)
> sabboths"Linda Lee" <lindagirl...@juno.com> wrote in message
Sam taylor
WRONG!
Nisan 14 Work, Killing the Lamb
Work Cooking the Lamb Work preparing the Meal
Work eating it Shod for departure STANDING not
Sitting WORK burning anything left Over
Work removing Leavening from You dwelling
ALL DONE ON PASSOVER to prepare for the HIGH Sabboth (not a weekly Sabboth,
but a Yearly Sabboth)
the DAY AFTER PASSOVER, the 1st day of the Feast of Unleavend Bread a Holy
day unto YHWH, as was the
7th day of the Week of Unleavened Bread.
Passover is a Memorial Day unto YHWH ...BUT
NOT A SABBOTH UNTO YHWH!!!
Mordecai
duke wrote:
There was evening, and morning the first day. Days begin at dusk.
Thus there is Shabat and there is the night of (after) Shabat. We often go out .. partying.
The night after Shabat is not Shabat.
When you call upon my people to act as a witness to your statements - do not be surprised when my people reply "We did not speak -and this is
not our witness."
--
Mordecai!
When words and actions disagree, believe actions.
When rhetoric and reality disagree, either rhetoric is wrong or reality is wrong, and reality is Never wrong.
vince garcia
>
> On Jan 3, 2:24 pm, "Sam taylor" <cyg...@cncnet.com> wrote:
> > The Lambs were slain before Passover began
> > on the late part of the 13th
>
> Exodus says they were killed on the 14th.
No, he's actually right. *Shock*
There was a 3 or 6 hour window before 3 PM when they slew the lambs, tho
my speculation--although there is no historic evidence to support it--is
that the people were slaughtering Passover lambs not merely on the
Pharisee preparation day, but throughout the week. I base this on the
fact that Josephus (Jewish Wars, vi. 9,3; ii. 14, 3) records that over
250,000 lambs were sacrificed. Given the fact that there was a window of
only 3 hours (noon to 3 PM--although some claim it may have been a
6-hour window) in which to slay those lambs, it is a sheer impossibility
to have accomplished the sacrifice in that amount of time, requiring
each of the two lines to sacrifice 12 lambs per second (or 6 lambs if
you take the more generous figure). As efficient as the people may have
been, it is beyond belief that they could consistently move into
position, slay and then pour the blood of 6-12 lambs each second for
several hours.
See Edershiem's THE TEMPLE AND ITS SERVICES for some good info on how
they did it.
glenn
> "duke" <duckg...@cox.net> wrote:
>
>> He didn't bury himself. The Jews that were forbidden to work on the
>> sabbath
>> (6pm Friday to 6pm Saturday) were forbidden to work.
>
>
> So HOW did they get permission from the Romans AND bury Jesus between 3pm
> and 6 pm on the Friday?
>
> BOTH the permission AND the burial had to all take place within three hours.
>
Unfortunately it appears that my killfile is not blocking you...
OTOH, it does appear to be blocking V6 and (R)
So I guess I shouldn't complain toooo much :-)
OBTW,
The Jews had the custom of burying a body the same day death occurred,
You may wish to verify that minor detail.
Matthew has it:
57 When the even was come, there came a rich man of Arimath�a, named
Joseph, who also himself was Jesus' disciple:
58 He went to Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus. Then Pilate
commanded the body to be delivered.
59 And when Joseph had taken the body, he wrapped it in a clean linen
cloth,
60 And laid it in his own new tomb, which he had hewn out in the
rock: and he rolled a great stone to the door of the sepulchre, and
departed.
And Mark states:
42 �And now when the even was come, because it was the preparation,
that is, the day before the sabbath,
43 Joseph of Arimathaea, an honourable counsellor, which also waited
for the kingdom of God, came, and went in boldly unto Pilate, and craved
the body of Jesus.
44 And Pilate marvelled if he were already dead: and calling unto him
the centurion, he asked him whether he had been any while dead.
45 And when he knew it of the centurion, he gave the body to Joseph.
46 And he bought fine linen, and took him down, and wrapped him in
the linen, and laid him in a sepulchre which was hewn out of a rock, and
rolled a stone unto the door of the sepulchre.
So Pilate gave permission, obviously, for the Jew Joseph of Arimathaea,
to take possession of the body and bury it before sunset.
--
Glenn
.
The year's in the wane
There is nothing adorning
The night has no eve
And the day has no morning
Old winter gives warning.
Hood
.
Chuck
On Jan 3, 7:21 am, "Chuck" <shellstamf...@cox.net> wrote:
> "dolf" <dolfb...@grapple.id.au> wrote in message
>
> news:ZnW%m.66525$ze1....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>
> > Chuck your explanation of sabbaton meaning week is reasonable in the
> > circumstance.
>
> > Mark 16:2 - "mia ton sabbaton" (ON THE FIRST [DAY] OF THE WEEK)
>
> > Luke24:1 - "mia ton sabbaton" (ON THE FIRST [DAY] OF THE WEEK)
>
> > John 20:1 - "mia ton sabbaton" (ON THE FIRST [DAY] OF THE WEEK)
>
> And it should be no surprise that's the case, since this is the position
> of
> traditional Christianity since the NT was first written as far as anyone
> is
> able to tell.
Linda: You're both wrong (and I notice he has "DAY" in brackets indicating
it
was added to the text). 'The first [day] of the week' means on 'the
first of the sabbaths' following the passover. The word translated
"week" (from sabbaton) does not equate to our word for week (meaning
seven days).
As Donna Kupp pointed out to you, the word translated "week"/sabbaton
is used in the plural there, so it refers to more than one sabbath day
in relation to the holy day of Passover being considered a sabbath. So
the 'first of the weeks' is the accurate translation, and it indicates
the first regular sabbath day following the Passover (which was NOT
after a full 7-day week).
Chuck: Enough, Linda. Donna Kupp doesn't know any more Greek than you do,
Linda, so I don't pay any attention to her when she tries to "point"
something out to me. "sabbaton" is NOT, per se, the plural of sabbath in
Greek (although as we'll see below it can be used as a plural), and if
either of you knew anything at all about the language, or bothered to check,
you'd know at least that much.
Let's review the Matthew 28:1 passage:
"In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the
week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre."
Notice the word "sabbath" in the first phrase? Notice the word "week" in
the prepositional phrase "of the week"? They're BOTH from the Greek
"sabbaton". So, this is the passage transliterated from the Greek:
"Opse de sabbaton (After now [the] sabbath; no article in the Greek) te
epiphoskouse (in the dawning) eis mian sabbaton (towards [the] first of
[the] week; again, the no article construction in the Greek) elthen Mariam
he Magdalene kai he alle Maria (came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary)
theoresai ton taphon" (to look at the grave)"
See that little word "mian" in front of the second "sabbaton"? THAT'S what
makes that second "sabbaton" a plural; that and the Greek idiom...but I'm
getting ahead of myself (see below)
Let's first look at the MESS of this passage it would make if we listened to
Donna and understood "sabbaton" to be plural every time we encountered it:
"In the end of the sabbaths, as it began to dawn toward the first of the
sabbaths, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre."
Now just how many things would be wrong if we did as Donna Who Knows No
Greek suggests? First of all it would render the entire passage incoherent!
"In the end of the sabbaths...toward the first of the sabbaths"??? She's
got Matthew contradicting himself in a single sentence!
But let's put that aside for the moment, and simply note that the sabbath,
as with all days of the week, begins not a dawn, or at midnight, but at
dusk, and Matthew is recounting events that happen at or very near dawn, not
at or very near dusk. Therefore at this time of day there would be no
sabbaths ending OR beginning, or any group of sabbaths ending or beginning.
Donna's suggestion is off on it's time of day by half a day according to the
plain meaning of Matthew (not to mention the other Evangelists).
Finally, a phrase like "the end of the sabbaths" would have to refer to
sabbath days in general unless more specifically stated. Otherwise the
reader is simply reading into the text what isn't stated there by the
inspired author. But a general statement that the end of the sabbaths had
come would have to refer to the end of the Jewish year, rather than the
Passover, which falls early in the year!
The simple fact is Donna's suggestion that "sabbaton" is the plural for
"sabbath" means we have to render it as a plural each time it appears in
Matthew 28:1, and when we do that we render that passage incoherent, about a
different time of year than the Passover, and speaking as though the Jewish
day ended at dawn instead of dusk.
Linda, Donna Kupp has no more training in Greek than you do, and you'd be a
fool to listen to her when she says stupid things, such as that "sabbaton"
is the plural for "sabbath".
Here is what a truly authoritative source has to say about "sabbaton"
"Usage Number: 1
Strong's Number: <G4521>
Original Word: sabbaton
Usage Notes: Note: The Greek word 'sabbata' may also be used.the latter, the
plural form was transliterated from the Aramaic word, which was mistaken for
a plural; hence the singular, sabbaton, was formed from it. -Vine's
Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words
That said, plurals in Greek are formed from singular forms in several ways,
and at Matt. 28:1 the second "sabbaton" IS a plural, formed FROM the
singular form by the Greek word that precedes it in the sentence, "mia"
("mian" in Matthew). However, it is used as a plural there for a very
complicated reason that involves how cardinal and ordinal numbers are stated
in Greek. A very partial explanation is attempted in Vine's, which tries to
explain the FIVE ways "mia" can be used to from various types of plurals and
ordinals from singular forms:
"(5) as an ordinal number, equivalent to protos, "first," in the phrase "the
first day of the week," lit., and idiomatically, "one of sabbaths,"
signifying "the first day after the sabbath," e.g., Matt. 28:1; Mark 16:2;
Acts 20:7; 1 Cor. 16:2. Moulton remarks on the tendency for certain cardinal
numerals to replace ordinals (Prol., p. 96)".-Vine's Expository Dictionary
of Old and New Testament Words
You can see for yourself here the reference to the idiomatic usage in the
passage. You can't GET an idiomatic usage out of Strong's, and you have to
be a Greek scholar to understand things like Greek idioms properly. You
aren't, and neither is Donna Kupp, and neither is anyone else who has ever
posted to ACC. It is typical of her to imply her expertise is greater than
it actually is, and to then give only part of the story...the part she can
use to argue for her legalistic heresy. You'd be a fool to listen to her,
when for $7 you can OWN an authoritative Greek source!
(http://tinyurl.com/y8v3uop)
Chuck
Chuck
Linda: Why not click on your own link? It's contents are at the bottom of
this post.
Chuck: I did, it works, and there's no plausible argument here so I'm not
going to pretend with you that there is. All four gospel writers agree that
Jesus rose early Sunday morn on the third day after he died.
Chuck
"Sam taylor" <cyg...@cncnet.com> wrote in message
news:3e60n.1197$rL7...@newsfe23.iad...
> IN the SABBOTH means it was STILL the SABBOTH
> INSIDE THE SABBOTH as it began to Dawn
> notice the Italics.
> DAWN is and olde Enflish word for Began or
> Begining
> so INSIDE THE SABBOTH as it began to begin TOWARDS the FIRST DAY OF THE
> WEEK
> means IT WERE NOT IN NOR ON THE FIRST DAY
> of the Week.
You're missing the point. The passage doesn't say "in the sabbath" or
"inside the sabbath". It says "in the end of the sabbath". What's the "end
of the sabbath" if not the first day of the week?
As for the appeal to "dawn" being an Old English word for "began", so what?
Major modern English translations are not written in Old English.
I
>>> He didn't bury himself. The Jews that were forbidden to work on the >>>
>>> sabbath
>>> (6pm Friday to 6pm Saturday) were forbidden to work.
>> So HOW did they get permission from the Romans AND bury Jesus between 3pm
>> and 6 pm on the Friday?
>>
>> BOTH the permission AND the burial had to all take place within three
>> hours.
>>
...
> The Jews had the custom of burying a body the same day death occurred,
> You may wish to verify that minor detail.
It was impossible if the Romans had crucified them and left them to be eaten
by carrion as was the NORMAL state of affairs. That is one reason why the
Rioamns used crucifixion. They didn't care about Jewish custom.
> Matthew has it:
> 57 When the even was come, there came a rich man of Arimath�a, named
> Joseph, who also himself was Jesus' disciple:
> 58 He went to Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus. Then Pilate
> commanded the body to be delivered.
> 59 And when Joseph had taken the body, he wrapped it in a clean linen
> cloth,
> 60 And laid it in his own new tomb, which he had hewn out in the rock:
> and he rolled a great stone to the door of the sepulchre, and departed.
A few problems:
1. Joseph of Arimathea is supposedly a JEW and probably a member of the
Sanhedrin. WHY was he working after sunset on the Sabbath if it is
happening in "the even"????
2. The stone was rolled in front of the tomb by Joseph of Arimathea.
Obviously a single person could also roll the the same stone back away from
the entrance!
3. There are NO guards on the tomb in Matthew's story.
4. HOW did Joseph manage to convince Pilate to let him have Jesus' body
between the hours of 3:00 pm and 6:00pm? It WASN'T a given that Jesus would
die on the same day he was crucfied. Joseph would have had to WAIT till
Jesus died and THEN sought permission from officials and THEN buried Jesus -
ALL in the space of three hours. You haven't explained HOW this was
possible.
> And Mark states:
> 42 �And now when the even was come, because it was the preparation, that
> is, the day before the sabbath,
> 43 Joseph of Arimathaea, an honourable counsellor, which also waited >
> for the kingdom of God, came, and went in boldly unto Pilate, and craved
> the body of Jesus.
> 44 And Pilate marvelled if he were already dead: and calling unto him
> the centurion, he asked him whether he had been any while dead.
> 45 And when he knew it of the centurion, he gave the body to Joseph.
> 46 And he bought fine linen, and took him down, and wrapped him in the
> linen, and laid him in a sepulchre which was hewn out of a rock, and >
> rolled a stone unto the door of the sepulchre.
>
> So Pilate gave permission, obviously, for the Jew Joseph of Arimathaea, >
> to take possession of the body and bury it before sunset.
HOW did Joseph get an audience with Pilate at such late notice - between 3 -
6 pm????? WHY would Pilate have bothered????
There is too much UNSAID in the story.
Apparently:
1. Joseph sees that Jesus is dead at 3:00 p.m.
2. Joseph arranges a meeting with Pilate AT SHORT NOTICE and Pilate sees
him. Joseph asks for Jesus' body.
3. Pilate sends for the centurion to ensure that Jesus IS dead.
4. The centurion arrives and gives Pilate the news that Jesus is dead.
5. Pilate again meets with Joseph and gives him permission to get Jesus '
body OR gives a person a message to send to Joseph with permission to get
the body of Jesus.
6. Jesus' body is taken down from the cross by Joseph, wrapped in burial
cloths / linen sheet (as reported in Matthew 23:53; John 20:6-7) and carried
to the tomb This is seen by the Jewish women who followed Jesus (Matthew
23:55).
Points 1-6 are all completed before 6 pm
7. ON THE SABBATH the Chief Priests meet with Pilate AT SHORT NOTICE and
Pilate agrees to post guard from the Sabbath until the third day (Matthew
27:62-66)
HOW DID THIS HAPPEN?????????????????
1. Do you REALLY think that Pilate would meet AT SHORT NOTICE to give the
body of a person he just crucified to ANYONE???? Degradation of the body
was part of the ritual of crucifixion. The dead corpse usually stayed there
as a warning to others not to commit a similar crime until it was eaten as
carrion by scavengers or rotted. (Much the same as criminals' heads were
posted on London Bridge as a warning.)
2. Do you REALLY think that the Chief Priests would do business on a
Sabbath????
3. WHY would Pilate treat the body of the person he just crucified for
treason any differently than any of the other thousands of bodies that were
crucified??????
4. WHY would Pilate bother wasting his guards' time outside the tomb of a
DEAD Jew crucified for treason????? Would he REALLY have been swayed by the
arguments of the Chief Priests?????
The story does not make sense.
It is a very simple story in the FIRST written gospel - Mark's gospel (65 -
80 CE)
Paul wrote about Jesus first but says NOTHING about the crucifixion story or
the burial story. WHY isn't it important for Paul????
It grows with retelling by the time one gets to John's gospel (90-120 CE) -
obviously because Matthew, Luke and John DIDN'T like Mark's version.
The story poses more questions than answers.
It is NOT sufficient to merely say "The bible says ...".
"The things that you're liable
To read in the bible
Ain't necessarily so!" - Porgy & Bess
--
MY BLOG - MARK T - my thoughts on Christianity & links
http://www.blognow.com.au/strooth/
MY SOUNDCLICK PAGE- download my original songs in mp3 format
http://www.soundclick.com/marktindall
glenn
> "glenn" wrote:
>
>>>> He didn't bury himself. The Jews that were forbidden to work on the >>>
>>>> sabbath
>>>> (6pm Friday to 6pm Saturday) were forbidden to work.
>>> So HOW did they get permission from the Romans AND bury Jesus between 3pm
>>> and 6 pm on the Friday?
>>>
>>> BOTH the permission AND the burial had to all take place within three
>>> hours.
>>>
> ...
>> The Jews had the custom of burying a body the same day death occurred,
>> You may wish to verify that minor detail.
>
>
> It was impossible if the Romans had crucified them and left them to be eaten
> by carrion as was the NORMAL state of affairs.
For Romans....
> That is one reason why the
> Rioamns used crucifixion. They didn't care about Jewish custom.
The Romans did as the Romans wished.
The Roman ruler, Pilot, did NOT want a riot in Jerusalem, therefore he
allowed the Jews to remove the bodies (or at least the body of Christ)
before sunset Friday.
>
>
>> Matthew has it:
>> 57 When the even was come, there came a rich man of Arimath�a, named
>> Joseph, who also himself was Jesus' disciple:
>> 58 He went to Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus. Then Pilate
>> commanded the body to be delivered.
>> 59 And when Joseph had taken the body, he wrapped it in a clean linen
>> cloth,
>> 60 And laid it in his own new tomb, which he had hewn out in the rock:
>> and he rolled a great stone to the door of the sepulchre, and departed.
>
> A few problems:
>
> 1. Joseph of Arimathea is supposedly a JEW and probably a member of the
> Sanhedrin. WHY was he working after sunset on the Sabbath if it is
> happening in "the even"????
He wasn't working after sunset. He went to Pilate shortly after the 9th
hour (just after about 3 pm) and requested the body.
Sunset would have been a little after the clock hour of 6 PM (examine
the astrological data for passover / sabbath, April 33 AD)
Granted that Joseph and the men he hired (you don't think he attempted
to carry the body to the grave himself, do you?) had little time to
accomplish the burial.
>
> 2. The stone was rolled in front of the tomb by Joseph of Arimathea.
He caused, or ordered, the tomb to be sealed.
>
> Obviously a single person could also roll the the same stone back away from
> the entrance!
Assumption makes you an ass.
>
> 3. There are NO guards on the tomb in Matthew's story.
Matthew didn't consider it important. He wrote about what was important
to him.
>
> 4. HOW did Joseph manage to convince Pilate to let him have Jesus' body
> between the hours of 3:00 pm and 6:00pm?
Who knows... perhaps a small donation to his retirement fund. About 20
million pieces of gold would to the trick almost instantly -- if not
damn quickly -- don't you think?
Markie... Why would you ask such an ignorant and speculative question?
Now tell me, markie, just what kind of illogic and speculation are you
going to launch on such an ignorant question?
> It WASN'T a given that Jesus would
> die on the same day he was crucfied.
Of course not!
But He died by 3 PM.
> Joseph would have had to WAIT till
> Jesus died and THEN sought permission from officials and THEN buried Jesus -
Which is what the text states.
> ALL in the space of three hours. You haven't explained HOW this was
> possible.
I also haven't explained how energy does not exist... but if you'll give
me an hour of your undivided attention, I'll be happy to do so.
>
>
>> And Mark states:
>> 42 �And now when the even was come, because it was the preparation, that
>> is, the day before the sabbath,
>> 43 Joseph of Arimathaea, an honourable counsellor, which also waited >
>> for the kingdom of God, came, and went in boldly unto Pilate, and craved
>> the body of Jesus.
>> 44 And Pilate marvelled if he were already dead: and calling unto him
>> the centurion, he asked him whether he had been any while dead.
>> 45 And when he knew it of the centurion, he gave the body to Joseph.
>> 46 And he bought fine linen, and took him down, and wrapped him in the
>> linen, and laid him in a sepulchre which was hewn out of a rock, and >
>> rolled a stone unto the door of the sepulchre.
>>
>> So Pilate gave permission, obviously, for the Jew Joseph of Arimathaea, >
>> to take possession of the body and bury it before sunset.
>
> HOW did Joseph get an audience with Pilate at such late notice - between 3 -
> 6 pm????? WHY would Pilate have bothered????
Who knows?
Speculation?
As I mentioned... 20 million pieces of gold would do the trick nicely.
>
> There is too much UNSAID in the story.
God the Father asks you to live by Faith.
You, apparently, have no faith, and demand unquestionable evidence.
There is none.
>
> Apparently:
> 1. Joseph sees that Jesus is dead at 3:00 p.m.
No problem.
> 2. Joseph arranges a meeting with Pilate AT SHORT NOTICE and Pilate sees
> him. Joseph asks for Jesus' body.
No problem.
> 3. Pilate sends for the centurion to ensure that Jesus IS dead.
No problem.
> 4. The centurion arrives and gives Pilate the news that Jesus is dead.
No problem.
> 5. Pilate again meets with Joseph and gives him permission to get Jesus '
> body OR gives a person a message to send to Joseph with permission to get
> the body of Jesus.
No problem.
> 6. Jesus' body is taken down from the cross by Joseph,
Where did you get the idea that Joseph himself would contaminate himself
by touching a dead body?
> wrapped in burial
> cloths / linen sheet (as reported in Matthew 23:53; John 20:6-7) and carried
> to the tomb This is seen by the Jewish women who followed Jesus (Matthew
> 23:55).
>
> Points 1-6 are all completed before 6 pm
Agreed, before sunset.
>
> 7. ON THE SABBATH the Chief Priests meet with Pilate AT SHORT NOTICE and
> Pilate agrees to post guard from the Sabbath until the third day (Matthew
> 27:62-66)
>
> HOW DID THIS HAPPEN?????????????????
Who knows?
Another 20 million dollar bribe? Pilot is really raking it in!
Perhaps Pilot was bored out of his gourd?
Maybe Pilot wanted to avoid a riot?
Who knows?
Speculation?
>
> 1. Do you REALLY think that Pilate would meet AT SHORT NOTICE to give the
> body of a person he just crucified to ANYONE????
Yes, if the price is right.
In fact, markie, I can sell you the Sydney Opera House if you're interested.
> Degradation of the body
> was part of the ritual of crucifixion. The dead corpse usually stayed there
Key word.... "Usually"
Pilot was under no absolute LAW that he MUST do things...
>
> as a warning to others not to commit a similar crime until it was eaten as
> carrion by scavengers or rotted. (Much the same as criminals' heads were
> posted on London Bridge as a warning.)
>
> 2. Do you REALLY think that the Chief Priests would do business on a
> Sabbath????
"Do business?"
Certainly! They perceived "this business" as their DUTY!
>
> 3. WHY would Pilate treat the body of the person he just crucified for
> treason
Pilot did not execute Jesus for treason, you've got to get that idiot
idea out of your head.
> any differently than any of the other thousands of bodies that were
> crucified??????
>
> 4. WHY would Pilate bother wasting his guards' time outside the tomb of a
> DEAD Jew crucified for treason?????
Who knows?
Are you dealing in speculation?
A couple of pounds of gold as a bribe would be plenty of reason.
Who knows, markie?
Want to try a little speculation?
He wanted to placate the Jews and avoid a riot.
> Would he REALLY have been swayed by the
> arguments of the Chief Priests?????
>
> The story does not make sense.
It doesn't make sense to YOU, markie, because YOU don't want to believe.
<clip>
duke
wrote:
>> >> God created for 6 days and rested on the seventh - a day of rest for all - no
>> >> work allowed. �
>> >The women ARRIVED at dawn. Christ had already resurrected during the
>> >night. This is the reason the Eastern Orthodox celebrate passover
>> >(Pascha) after sunset on Saturday evening...in fact all night.
>> Then he would have risen on the passover day according to the Jews.
>The Messiah was "the Lamb of God"; THE Passover Lamb whose BLOOD
>reprieved us from sin and its effects, death of the Spirit, JUST LIKE
>the blood of the Passover lamb reprieved the firstborn of the
>Israelites from death. The Messiah died on the Passover; he had to in
>order to be the Passover lamb.
Yet he couldn't have been buried on the passover because it was against Jewish
to work on the Sabbath, which was Friday 6pm to Saturday 6pm. That means he
died on Friday at 3pm and spent part of Friday, all day Saturday, and part of
Sunday so as to rise on the 3rd day.
.
>John 1:29 says, "The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and
>saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the
>world".
The Dukester, American-American
duke
spam)"@internode.on.net> wrote:
>> >> God created for 6 days and rested on the seventh - a day of rest for all - no
>> >> work allowed.
>> >The women ARRIVED at dawn. Christ had already resurrected during the
>> >night. This is the reason the Eastern Orthodox celebrate passover
>> >(Pascha) after sunset on Saturday evening...in fact all night.
>> Then he would have risen on the passover day according to the Jews.
>There was evening, and morning the first day. Days begin at dusk.
>Thus there is Shabat and there is the night of (after) Shabat. We often go out .. partying.
>The night after Shabat is not Shabat.
Cool, I'm a Christian.
duke
>"duke" <duckg...@cox.net> wrote:
>
>> He didn't bury himself. The Jews that were forbidden to work on the
>> sabbath
>> (6pm Friday to 6pm Saturday) were forbidden to work.
>
>
>So HOW did they get permission from the Romans AND bury Jesus between 3pm
>and 6 pm on the Friday?
>BOTH the permission AND the burial had to all take place within three hours.
Yep. Cut him down, walk 100 paces, wrap him up and push the stone in place.
>Normally a crucified person was left on the cross to rot and be eaten by
>scavengers.
You were "normally there"?
>The next most common item was that the bodies would be dumped
>in a mass grave. There is no archaeological evidence that a crucified
>person was ever taken from a cross and buried.
> It would be very UNUSUAL ...
>and this UNUSUAL event had to take place within 3 hours when the apostles
>had fed for their lives (except if you believe John's gospel where John was
>the only disciple who did not flee - highly unlikely!).
>The BIG question is what a DEAD GOD does while he is dead!
Simple. He was collecting the souls of all the people that died in the
friendship of God before the crucifixion and raising them to new life. How
about that - Jews and muslims and atheists and all going to heaven.
duke
>"glenn" wrote:
>
>>>> He didn't bury himself. The Jews that were forbidden to work on the >>>
>>>> sabbath
>>>> (6pm Friday to 6pm Saturday) were forbidden to work.
>>> So HOW did they get permission from the Romans AND bury Jesus between 3pm
>>> and 6 pm on the Friday?
>>>
>>> BOTH the permission AND the burial had to all take place within three
>>> hours.
>>>
>...
>> The Jews had the custom of burying a body the same day death occurred,
>> You may wish to verify that minor detail.
>
>
>It was impossible if the Romans had crucified them and left them to be eaten
>by carrion as was the NORMAL state of affairs.
But Harry asked for the body of the KING OF THE JEWS and it was granted.
I
> But Harry asked for the body of the KING OF THE JEWS and it was granted.
Joseph asked for Jesus' body. The Roman Empire did not recognise Jesus as
"King of the Jews".
YeshuatheWay
> Passover is NOT a sabbath, as You are commanded to
> WORK on Passover day.
> removing Leaven from Your dwellings
> the 1st and 7th day of the Feast of Unleavened bread are Both High (yearly)
> - Show quoted text -
Passover is not the day of preparation.
YeshuatheWay
> >The women ARRIVED at dawn. Christ had already resurrected during the
> >night. This is the reason the Eastern Orthodox celebrate passover
> >(Pascha) after sunset on Saturday evening...in fact all night.
>
> Then he would have risen on the passover day according to the Jews.
>
> The Dukester, American-American
> *****
> "The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
> Pope Paul VI
> *****- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
No, he resurrected on the 16th, the day the wave sheaf is waved. The
Jewish day is from sunset to senset. Saturday after sunset is already
Sunday...
YeshuatheWay
>
> - Show quoted text -
The lambs were not killed ON Passover. They were killed on the day of
preparation, the day before. After sunset (now Passover), the seders
began.
YeshuatheWay
> night. This is the reason the Eastern Orthodox celebrate passover
> (Pascha) after sunset on Saturday evening...in fact all night.
>
> also don't have any indication from the NT that Christ rose during the
> night, and all four Evangelists write to give the distinct impression Jesus
> rose just before the women arrived. So, for example...
>
> See this page:http://www.orthodoxresearchinstitute.org/articles/liturgics/zander_ch...
>
> Makes it pretty clear the Orthodox celebration of Easter follows the ancient
> custom of ANTICIPATION of the Resurrection all during the night before the
> early Easter Sunday morning thanksgiving and receiving of the Euchrist.
>
> http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-178430553.html
>
> http://www.al-bushra.org/prayer/easter.htm
>
> An especially good article for understanding what stands behind "Pascha" in
> the Orthodox:
>
> http://www.slocc.com/orthodoxy/churchcalendar.html
>
> Hope that helps
>
> Chuck- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Well, the woman were there just before dawn when iot was still dark.
So he could have risen anytime after sunset till just before
dawn...either way, that is still during THE NIGHT.
It seems you do not understand the other things. Also, you may want to
look up what the term "Pascha" means...it means "Passover". Eastern
Orthodox do not celebrate "Easter". In fact the early Eastern churches
celebrated it as quartodecimans, on the 14th of the Jewish month of
Nissan. His resurrection happened AFTER passover. The eastern Orthodox
do NOT have Sunday sunrise services. They start singing "Christ is
risen" just before 12 midnight. All vestments are changed to all white
just before midnight. The ancient custom was as I have said.
Christ would not let Mary touch him because he had not yet ascended to
his Father to present His sacrifice. She had been defiled by touching
a dead body. Later he let others touch him because he had already
presented Himself as the sacrifice and The Father had accepted it.
YeshuatheWay
> On Sun, 3 Jan 2010 01:58:49 -0800 (PST), YeshuatheWay <Yeshuathe...@yahoo.com>
A day is from sunset to sunset. Saturday after sunset is already
Sunday within Jewish parameters.
Onward � Morons
--
OPEN a bible and *IT* will CLOSE your mind...
- AunÝie ChrisÝsÝain
- - Book Of Realizations©
�wicechris� �.
>> Passover is NOT a sabbath, as You are commanded to
>> WORK on Passover day.
>> both in Preperation of the Meal, but also
>> removing Leaven from Your dwellings
>> the 1st and 7th day of the Feast of Unleavened bread are Both High (yearly)
Dumbest thing I ever heard of ... right up there with the 40-hour work week
... .. .
>>> sabboths"Linda Lee" <lindagirl...@juno.com>
>
> Passover is not the day of preparation.
--
*IF*, and that's *IF* Jesus was, he was MOST CERTAINLY a Liberal...
ilbe...@gmail.com
Ha....tell that to the countless U.S. Presidents, Generals, highly
acclaimed medical Doctors and Scientists, all of our modern Science
Founders , Law Professors, Butchers, Bakers and Candlestick
Makers .... that it closes ones mind. Its folks with closed minds
that are content being their own god for maximized lifestyle
pleasures , that need to have thier Minds opened .
duane
Wacko
thomas p.
> On Jan 5, 2:59 am, Onward � Morons <qsigzim...@ecko.net>
> wrote:
>> That anything like the "Wooky" in the other fairy tale
>> Star Wars?
>>
>> --
>> OPEN a bible and *IT* will CLOSE your mind...
>>
>> - - Book Of Realizations�
>
> Ha....tell that to the countless U.S. Presidents,
> Generals, highly acclaimed medical Doctors and
> Scientists,
The overwhelming percentage of the Royal Society are, in fact,
atheists.
all of our modern Science Founders , Law
> Professors, Butchers, Bakers and Candlestick
> Makers .... that it closes ones mind. Its folks with
> closed minds that are content being their own god for
> maximized lifestyle pleasures , that need to have thier
> Minds opened .
False and insulting ad hominem, but what else can you do,
when you have no objective evidence for your beliefs.
thomas p.
>> wrote:
>>
>>> That anything like the "Wooky" in the other fairy tale
>>> Star Wars?
>>
>>> --
>>> OPEN a bible and *IT* will CLOSE your mind...
>>
>>
>> Ha....tell that to the countless U.S. Presidents,
>> Generals, highly acclaimed medical Doctors and
>> Scientists, all of our modern Science Founders , Law
>> Professors, Butchers, Bakers and Candlestick
>> Makers .... that it closes ones mind. Its folks with
>> closed minds that are content being their own god for
>> maximized lifestyle pleasures , that need to have thier
>> Minds opened .
>
> Wacko
Not to mention liar, but I did anyway.
Syd M.
Linda Lee
> "LindaLee" <lindagirl...@juno.com> wrote in message
>
> news:85bd8dcd-a808-4584...@x15g2000vbr.googlegroups.com...
> On Jan 3, 12:34 am, "Chuck" <shellstamf...@cox.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> >news:05b36444-1369-47c1...@z40g2000vba.googlegroups.com...
> > On Jan 2, 12:39 pm, "Chuck" <shellstamf...@cox.net> wrote:
>
The text in the English does not agree with the Greek texts. Weeks/
sabbaton does not equal our week.