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PRE-TRIB RAPTURE: A lie from the deepest pit of hell

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Jon

unread,
Apr 18, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/18/99
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>Matthew said:
>This is clearly not Christ's second coming to the earth.
>At the rapture, He never gets below cloud level. At His
>second coming to the earth, His feet will stand on the Mount...

A review of relevant verses in the Bible demonstrates that the
rapture takes place either moments before or simultaneous to
the second coming. There is no way around it. Consider the
verses:

(1 Th 4:14-17 KJV) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose
again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with
him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we
which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not
prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend

from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and
with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together
with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so
shall we ever be with the Lord.

(1 Cor 15:51-53 KJV) Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not
all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the
twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall
sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall
be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and
this mortal must put on immortality.

(Mat 24:30-31 KJV) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of
man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn,
and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven
with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with
a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his
elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

(Mat 24:37-43 KJV) But as the days of Noe were, so shall also
the coming of theSon of man be. For as in the days that were
before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and
giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so
shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in
the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

(Mark 13:24-27 KJV) But in those days, after that tribulation,
the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in
heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man
coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall
he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the
four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost
part of heaven.

(Luke 17:30-34 KJV) Even thus shall it be in the day when the
Son of man is revealed. In that day, he which shall be upon the
housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to
take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not
return back. Remember Lot's wife. Whosoever shall seek to save
his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall
preserve it. I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in
one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.

(Luke 21:26-28 KJV) Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for
looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the

powers of heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the
Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. And
when these things begin to come to pass, then look up,and lift up
your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

(Dan 7:21-22 KJV) I beheld, and the same horn made war with the
saints, and prevailed against them; Until the Ancient of days
came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and
the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

One cannot read these verses and conclude anything other than
that they refer to the second coming as a visible event
simultaneous to the second resurrection and rapture of ALL
believers. Each describes the rapture as simultaneous to the
second coming. Each describes the resurrection of the dead
PRECEDING the rapture. Scores of other verses which indirectly
deal with the subject tell us to wait for the day of the Lord,
such as this one:

(2 Pet 3:12 KJV) Looking for and hasting unto the coming of
the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be
dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

There is no indication that this is anything other than the
second coming. And, when one meshes these verses with those of
Revelation in a post-trib sense, they mesh quite nicely. The
sheep and the goats are seperated by the rapture. The sheep go to
meet Christ in the air, and the goats are gathered in the valley
of Armageddon. The sheep go to the wedding feast, the goats to
the great supper of God.

One primary sign in these verses that meshes with Revelation is
the darkening of the sun and the turning of the moon to red. In
Revelation, this event is UNDENIABLY associated with the six
seal. The four gospels describe this as AFTER the tribulation,
and BEFORE the second coming. Ergo, it must precede the rapture.

>Those resurrected at the end of the tribulation are the Old Testament saints
>and those saints killed in the tribulation. They are not "the dead in Christ".
>They are believing saints, but they are not Christians.

Please make a scriptural case for two seperate resurrections of
believers. Please make a scriptural case for a difference between

pre-trib Christians and post-trib saints. I have checked the
context of every single occurence of the word "saint" and
"saints" in the Old and New Testaments, and I see no apparent
distinction between saints, believers, churches or elect. Depart
from the pre-trib presupposition and there is no case in
scripture.

>Really? God will kill half the population of the earth with
>fourth seal and the sixth trumpet. That's 3 billion or so dead.
>That's obviously God's wrath...

>Read where Revelation says the wrath of God is pummeling those
>that dwell on >the earth all the way back in Revelation 6:15-17.

Not quite, Matthew. Here's the events of the fourth seal and
sixth trumpet:

(Rev 6:7-8 KJV) And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard
the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see. And I looked,
and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death,
and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over
the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with
hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

The verses in Rev 6:15-17 are during the SIXTH seal, Matthew,
and correspond to the sixth trumpet.

(Rev 6:12-15 KJV) And I beheld when he had opened the sixth
seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became
black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And
the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree
casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together;
and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men,
and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman,
and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks
of the mountains;

(Rev 9:13-16 KJV) And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a
voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before
God, Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the
four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates. And
the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and
a day, and a month, and a year,for to slay the third part of men.
And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred
thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.

As an aside, if you will read Revelation carefully, you will see
the repetitiveness of seal, trumpet and bowl in many places.
Certain events recur over and over again. That is because
Revelation is NOT a chronological sequence, but rather a
non-sequenced description of events that overlap to various
extents. Pre-tribbery does not follow the sequence of events in
Revelation or the gospels or letters. It's ascribed mystery
meanings to certain terms and makes non-scriptural
presuppositions, like the assertion that "church" is
different from "saint."

>Signs are not given to US. Signs were given to the JEWS (1 Cor 1:22).
>See the article that I refer you to at the end of this note.

And, wisdom was given only to the greeks, ey Matthew? Out of
context. Here is what more of that segment says, in context this
time:

(1 Cor 1:22 KJV) For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks
seek after wisdom: But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews
a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; But unto them
which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God,
and the wisdom of God.

What this means is that the Jews were always looking for a sign.

And, indeed, a reading of the four gospels bears that out. The
Greeks were rationalists who wanted to be convinced
intellectually. But, the writer is making the point that the
acceptance of Christ is wrought solely of the spirit of God.
Regarding your other article, I'm going to print it out and
critique it some more.

>The first thousand years in the kingdom is not eternal life.
> Read Isaiah 65:20-25 and Revelation 20:9-20

These verses you cite do NOT refer to same periods of time,
Matthew. Isaiah 65:20-25 refers to the eternal kingdom AFTER the
great white throne judgement. Notice the pertinent verse in
Isaiah that puts the time in context, a few verses above that
section which you cited. It mirrors Revelation 21:1 exactly.

(Isa 65:17 KJV) For, behold, I create new heavens and a new
earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into
mind.

(Rev 21:1 KJV) And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the
first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was
no more sea.

Revelation 20:9-20 refers to the period at the end of the
millineal reign, when the devil is loosed again to rally
unregenerate mortals against Jesus and the saints in Jerusalem.
There is no way that raptured or resurrected believers will die
or age after the second coming. This is against scripture,
explicitly. If you doubt, then merely refer back to the verses I
listed at the beginning of this letter. Refer to THIS too:

(Mat 22:29-30 KJV) Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err,
not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. For in the
resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but
are as the angels of God in heaven.

>The Bible says we will be caught UP into the CLOUDS to eet the
>Lord in the AIR.

The Bible says we will changed in an instant AND we will be
caught up AT THE COMING OF THE LORD. So, since both you and I
use these verses to explain the rapture, we must agree that BOTH
descriptions accurately describe the event. It is an
INSTANTANEOUS catching up to be with the Lord in the air.

>>>If the rapture had occurred just before
>>>Christ's return, they would have already been resurrected,
>>>and could not be resurrected again.

>>Do they need to be resurrected again?

>The Bible does NOT say this.

The point is Matthew, this is what pre-tribbery implies. One
righteous resurrection with the rapture, and one with the
millineal reign.

Rev. 20 does not say that these are only tribulation saints. It
says "Dead in Christ." Allow me to point you to OTHER verses in
the Bible that talk about the resurrection of the believers.

(John 6:40 KJV) And this is the will of him that sent me, that
every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have
everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

(John 6:44 KJV) No man can come to me, except the Father which
hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

(John 6:54 KJV) Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood,
hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

(John 11:24 KJV) Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall
rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

>You have them being resurrected near the end of the tribulation
> at the rapture,being caught up into the clouds, then being brought
> back down and put back into the ground so they can be resurrected
>again when the tribulation is >completely over in Revelation 20:4-5.

You may not clearly understand the post-trib position. It is
that the rapture, first resurrection and the second coming are
SIMULTANEOUS events, along with the day of wrath. This meshes
with what the Bible teaches.

>Two for the Jews that is. Paul clearly defines the rapture of the
> church as a separate event. Jesus Christ never told His disciples
>about the rapture. Thatwas still a mystery when Christ was still on
> earth. According to His plan, he could not reveal it to them.

The rapture was revealed during Jesus time, on the contrary.
This is amply demonstrated in some of the gospel verses I
provided at the beginning of this letter.

Every single description of the last days event includes three
things. The visible return of Jesus, The gathering of the living
believers and The resurrection of the dead. Often, they are put
in the context of time: sun is darkened, moon turns red, last
trumpet sounds, men hide themselves, etc.

>No. Every single one of them are right out of the scriptures, and
>I provide them>in my article.

Matthew, I believe you have a right heart and you love the Lord.
I
believe you want to help people. But in all honesty, I wonder
whether you have studied the scriptures for yourself with a
critical eye. Perhaps this doesn't apply to you, but I've noticed
one common denominator amongst pretribbers. They either accept
the validity of pretribulationism without question, or they
interpret with a preconcieved bias. I was fortunate in that
regard, because I was saved out of complete atheism directly by
the Holy Spirit. I had no prior eschatological background, but
relied merely upon God opening my eyes as I read the Bible for
myself.

I am convinced there is no way one can earnestly study the
primary and secondary scriptures involved and reconcile them,
even remotely, with pretribulationalism or the associated
beliefs. An example of the latter is the assertion that the
"pre-trib church" is different from the "post-trib saints." This
thesis is easy to demolish in a host of ways. The words "church"
and "churches" appears 114 times total in the NT. The words
"saint" or "saints" appears 101 times in both testaments. The
words "elect", "elected" and "election" appear a total of 24
times in both. At no time is any distinction ever made betwixt
them regarding Jews, Gentiles, pre-trib, post-trib or any trib.
Indeed, "elect" is used in regards to angels, as well as humans.
Study the original Hebrew and Greek meanings if you like. It
doesn't matter.

How could there be two bodies? How could there be a distinction
between Jewish believers and Gentile believers, especially in
light of the Pauline writings? Nothing indicates a distinction.
Indeed, Hebrews says quite the opposite. There is only ONE body
of Christ, and you can call it the "elect", the "saints" or the
"church." Paul goes so far as to say we are ALL true Jews who
believe, and we are Israel. Just one distinction IS made in
Revelation, and that is that is in reference to those who are
slain by the beast:

(Rev 14:13 KJV) And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me,
Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from
henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their
labours; and their works do follow them.


EHighleymn

unread,
Apr 19, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/19/99
to
Greetings Jon,

>The rapture takes place either moments before or

>simultaneous to the second coming.

Yes. It happens at the 2nd coming.


>(2 Pet 3:12 KJV) Looking for and hasting unto the
>coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being
>on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt
>with fervent heat?

Here Peter isn’t describing the 2nd coming, but what
will happen at the end of the millenium:

2 Pet 3:10-13
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night;
in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise,
and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also
and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing
then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner
of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and
godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the

day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be
dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new
heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

John describes this same event:

Rev 20:11, 21:1-2
I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from
whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there
was found no place for them... And I saw a new heaven

and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth

were passed away... And I John saw the holy city, new
Jerusalem, coming down from God...

So Peter was describing the ultimate day of the Lord,
which he also called the “day of God” (2 Pet 3:12), when
the earth and heavens will vanish completely, and God’s
new creation will begin.

1 Cor 15:28
Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the
Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things
under Him, that God may be all in all.

We know that Peter wasn’t referring to the 2nd coming
because at the 2nd coming Jesus will only destroy the
wicked world -- the earth itself will not be destroyed,
but instead renewed intoEdenic perfection during the
millenium:

Matt 19:28b
In the regeneration, when the Son of Man
sits on the throne of His glory...

Isa 51:3
The LORD will surely comfort Zion and will look with
compassion on all her ruins; he will make her deserts
like Eden, her wastelands like the garden of the LORD...


>The sheep and the goats are separated by the rapture.

The Mt 25:31-46 judgment is the white throne judgment
of all people, after the millenium (Rev 20:11-15). Right
before this, in Mt 25:19-30, we see the judgment
of the saints at the 2nd coming.

We know the Mt 25:31-46 judgment is the white throne
judgment because Jesus refers to the throne (v. 31) and
to the "everlasting" punishment of the lake of fire (v. 41,
Rev. 20:15).


>One primary sign in these verses that meshes with
>Revelation is the darkening of the sun and the turning
>of the moon to red. In Revelation, this event is
>UNDENIABLY associated with the six seal. The four
>gospels describe this as AFTER the tribulation, and
>BEFORE the second coming. Ergo, it must precede
>the rapture.

The 6th seal isn't after the tribulation because after the
6th seal comes the 7th seal and the 7 trumpets and the
7 vials, which are all part of the great tribulation.

The 6th seal darkening of the sun doesn't have to be
the same as that in Mt 24:29, after the tribulation, because
the sun also appears darkened later at the 4th trumpet
(Rev 8:12) and the 5th trumpet (Rev 9:2), both of which
will bring great tribulation on the earth.

The 6th seal turning of the moon red can't be after the
tribulation because a red moon gives light, whereas
after the tribulation the moon will not give light (Mt 24:29).


>The verses in Rev 6:15-17 are during the SIXTH seal,

>and correspond to the sixth trumpet.

This isn't possible because the 7 angels aren't given the
7 trumpets until after the 7th seal.

Rev 8:1-2, 6-7
And when he had opened the seventh seal...
I saw the seven angels which stood before God;
and to them were given seven trumpets...
And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets
prepared themselves to sound. The first angel sounded...


>If you will read Revelation carefully, you will see the

>repetitiveness of seal, trumpet and bowl in many places.
>Certain events recur over and over again. That is
>because Revelation is NOT a chronological sequence,
>but rather a non-sequenced description of events that
>overlap to various extents.

Just as the trumpets are subsequent to the seals, so are the
vials subsequent to the trumpets:

Rev 11:15, 19; 15:5-6
And the seventh angel sounded... And the temple of God
was opened in heaven... I looked, and, behold, the temple...
in heaven was opened: And the seven angels came out
of the temple, having the seven plagues...

Each of the seals, trumpets, and vials brings a different event:

1st seal:
Rev 6:2b
A white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a
crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering...

1st trumpet:
Rev 8:7b
Hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon
the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all
green grass was burnt up.

1st vial:
Rev 16:2
There fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men
which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which
worshipped his image.

Here there’s no correlation between the events.


2nd seal:
Rev 6:4
There went out another horse that was red: and power
was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the
earth, and that they should kill one another: and there
was given unto him a great sword.

2nd trumpet:
Rev 8:8b-9
As it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into
the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood; And
the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and
had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.

2nd vial:
Rev 16:3
The second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it
became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul
died in the sea.

Here there’s some correlation between the 2nd vial
and the 2nd trumpet in that they both affect the sea. But
they describe different events because at the 2nd trumpet
only 1/3 of the sea turns to blood, whereas at the 2nd vial,
at the end of the tribulation, the entire sea turns to blood.


3rd seal:
Rev 6:5-6
I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had
a pair of balances in his hand. And I heard a voice in the
midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a
penny, and three measures of barley for a penny...

3rd trumpet:
Rev 8:10-11
There fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a
lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon
the fountains of waters; And the name of the star is called
Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became
wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because
they were made bitter.

3rd vial:
Rev 16:4
The third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and
fountains of waters; and they became blood.

Here there’s some correlation between the 3rd vial
and the 3rd trumpet in that they both affect the waters.
But they describe different events because at the 3rd
trumpet only 1/3 of the waters are affected, and it
doesn’t say they turn to blood, whereas at the 3rd vial,
at the end of the tribulation, all the waters are affected,
and it says they turn to blood.


4th seal:
Rev 6:8
Behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was

Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given
unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with
sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the
beasts of the earth.

4th trumpet:
Rev 8:12
The third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of
the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part
of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third
part of it, and the night likewise.

4th vial:
Rev 16:8
The fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power
was given unto him to scorch men with fire.

Here the 4th vial affects the sun in the opposite manner as the
4th trumpet.


5th seal:
Rev 6:9b-11
I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the
word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they
cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and
true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that
dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every
one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest
yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their
brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

5th trumpet:
Rev 9:1b-11
I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was
given the key of the bottomless pit. And he opened the
bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as
the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were
darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. And there came
out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was
given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. And
it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass
of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only
those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but
that they should be tormented five months: and their torment
was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it;
and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them. And
the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared
unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like
gold, and their faces were as the faces of men. And they
had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the
teeth of lions. And they had breastplates, as it were
breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as
the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle. And
they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in
their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.
And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the
bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is
Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.

5th vial:
Rev 16:10
The fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast;
and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their
tongues for pain...

Here there’s some correlation between the 5th trumpet and
5 vial in that they both bring darkness and pain. But like the
other trumpets and vials, these are separate events, for the
5th trumpet doesn’t mention the kingdom of the beast and the
5th vial doesn’t mention the locusts.


6th seal:
Rev 6:12b-17
There was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as

sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the
stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth
her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And
the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and
every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich
men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every
bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and

in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and
rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth
on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great
day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

6th trumpet:
Rev 9:13-19


I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar
which is before God, Saying to the sixth angel which had
the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the
great river Euphrates. And the four angels were loosed,
which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month,

and a year, for to slay the third part of men. And the number

of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand

thousand: and I heard the number of them. And thus I saw
the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having
breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the
heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of
their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone. By these
three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by
the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their
mouths. For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails:
for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and
with them they do hurt.

6th vial:
Rev 16:12
The sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river
Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the
way of the kings of the east might be prepared.

There is some correlation between the 6th trumpet and
the 6th vial in that they both refer to armies and the
Euphrates, but the armies of the 6th trumpet come out
of the Euphrates and slay 1/3 of mankind whereas the
armies of the 6th vial come from the east and don’t
slay anyone -- they are slain by Christ (Rev 19:19-21).


7th seal:
Rev 8:1-2
There was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.
And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to
them were given seven trumpets.

7th trumpet:
Rev 11:15-19
There were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms
of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and
of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. And the
four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their
seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, Saying,
We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art,
and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to
thee thy great power, and hast reigned. And the nations
were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the
dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest
give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the
saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and
shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. And the
temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen
in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were
lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake,
and great hail.

7th vial:
Rev 16:17b-21
There came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from
the throne, saying, It is done. And there were voices, and
thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake,
such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty
an earthquake, and so great. And the great city was divided
into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great
Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto
her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
And every island fled away, and the mountains were not
found. And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven,
every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed
God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof
was exceeding great.

There is some correlation between the 7th trumpet and
the 7th vial, but as with the others, they describe different
events. For example, the 7th trumpet doesn’t mention
Babylon and the 7th vial doesn’t mention the opening of
the temple in heaven.

There really isn’t anything to suggest that the 6th seal
happens after the tribulation, especially when the 7
trumpets come out of the 7th seal (Rev 8:1-2, 6-7),
and the 7 vials come out of the temple-opening of the
7th trumpet (Rev 11:15, 19; 15:5-6).

The rapture must come after the 7 trumpets, and after
the 7 vials, for when the rapture comes the Antichrist
is destroyed.

2 Thes 2:8b
Then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord
shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall
destroy with the brightness of his coming [parousia].

1 Cor 15:23
Every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits;
afterward they that are Christ's at his coming [parousia].

1 Thes 4:15b
The coming [parousia] of the Lord...

The Antichrist isn't destroyed at the 6th seal, for he
gathers his armies after the 6th vial (Rev 16:12-16),
and is destroyed at the 2nd coming (Rev 19:19-20),
which is after the vials (Rev 16).

This is why between the 6th and 7th vials, Jesus exhorts
us to hold on:

Rev 16:15
Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth...

Eric

<A HREF="http://www.geocities.com/athens/ithaca/4856/HowToPrepare.html"><br>
Church, Prepare For Great Tribulation</A>

sondrat...@gmail.com

unread,
Jun 23, 2013, 9:54:07 PM6/23/13
to
I don't know if you still revisit this, but thank you for posting this. It's wonderful, and exactly what I needed. :) Great work!

Abrams1117

unread,
Jun 24, 2013, 10:02:59 AM6/24/13
to
Re = One primary sign in these verses that meshes with Revelation is
the darkening of the sun and the turning of the moon to red. In
Revelation, this event is UNDENIABLY associated with the six
seal. The four gospels describe this as AFTER the tribulation,
and BEFORE the second coming. Ergo, it must precede the rapture.

As far as I know, I was the first to discover this...

http://www.amazon.com/Death-Pre-Tribulation-Rapture-Important-Prophecy/dp/1453878971/ref=sr_1_1_title_0_main?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1369970139&sr=1-1&keywords=death+pre-tribulation+rapture

..where did you learn about it?



Nancy

unread,
Jun 24, 2013, 1:41:01 PM6/24/13
to
~~~
Nancy

This is my source.....and it's free.

www.zionministry.com
Message has been deleted

Nancy

unread,
Jun 24, 2013, 4:20:55 PM6/24/13
to
On Monday, June 24, 2013 2:11:03 PM UTC-4, The Other Guy wrote:
> On Mon, 24 Jun 2013 10:41:01 -0700 (PDT), Nancy >
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> >This is my source.....and it's free.
>
> >
>
> >www.zionministry.com
>
>
>
>
>
> WHY did you repost over 650 lines of CRAP for a 2 line reply???

~~~
Nancy

The only thing that came up on my computer was what Abrams had said.



>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> To reply by email, lose the Ks...

Abrams1117

unread,
Jun 24, 2013, 4:53:37 PM6/24/13
to
Hi Nancy,

I was addressing Jon about this post...

~One primary sign in these verses that meshes with Revelation is
the darkening of the sun and the turning of the moon to red. In
Revelation, this event is UNDENIABLY associated with the six
seal. The four gospels describe this as AFTER the tribulation,
and BEFORE the second coming. Ergo, it must precede the rapture.~

...and I have no idea what NVS says about the subject, I do know he set a date for the end which came and went years ago with nothing happening.



Abrams1117

unread,
Jun 24, 2013, 5:01:21 PM6/24/13
to
On Monday, April 19, 1999 4:00:00 AM UTC-3, EHighleymn wrote:
> Greetings Jon,
>
> >The rapture takes place either moments before or
> >simultaneous to the second coming.
>
> Yes. It happens at the 2nd coming.
>
>
> >(2 Pet 3:12 KJV) Looking for and hasting unto the
> >coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being
> >on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt
> >with fervent heat?
>
> Here Peter isn’t describing the 2nd coming, but what
> will happen at the end of the millenium:
>
> 2 Pet 3:10-13
> But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night;
> in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise,
> and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also
> and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing
> then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner
> of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and
> godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the
> day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be
> dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
> Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new
> heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.


Peter is very plainly describing the Day of the Lord...

> But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night;
> in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise,
> and the elements shall melt with fervent heat,

...WHICH is a long period of time and includes...

Joel 2:31
The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood,
before the great and the terrible Day of the Lord come.

Joel 3:14
Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision:
for the Day of the Lord is near in the valley of decision.

Amos 5:18
Woe unto you that desire the Day of the Lord!
To what end is it for you?
The Day of the Lord is darkness, and not light.

Amos 5:20
Shall not the Day of the Lord be darkness, and not light?
Even very dark, and no brightness in it?

Obadiah 1:15
For the Day of the Lord is near upon all the heathen:
as thou hast done, it shall be done unto thee:
thy reward shall return upon thine own head.

Zephaniah 1:7
Hold thy peace at the presence of the Lord God:
for the Day of the Lord is at hand:
for the Lord hath prepared a sacrifice,
he hath bid his guests.


Zep 1:14
The great Day of the Lord is near, it is near,
and hasteth greatly,
even the voice of the Day of the Lord:
the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.


Zechariah 14:1
Behold, the Day of the Lord cometh,
and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

Malachi 4:5
Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet
before the coming of the great and dreadful Day of the Lord:

Acts 2:20
The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood,
before that great and notable Day of the Lord come:


1Thessalonians 5:2
For yourselves know perfectly
that the Day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.


2Peter 3:10
But the Day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night;
in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise,
and the elements shall melt with fervent heat,
the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.





>

Abrams1117

unread,
Jun 24, 2013, 5:30:19 PM6/24/13
to
On Monday, April 19, 1999 4:00:00 AM UTC-3, EHighleymn wrote:
I just noticed that this was from 14 years ago, I wondered where such an interesting thread came from because it is not the norm these days.

Re
The 6th seal isn't after the tribulation because after the
6th seal comes the 7th seal and the 7 trumpets and the
7 vials, which are all part of the great tribulation.
The 6th seal darkening of the sun doesn't have to be
the same as that in Mt 24:29, after the tribulation, because
the sun also appears darkened later at the 4th trumpet
(Rev 8:12) and the 5th trumpet (Rev 9:2), both of which
will bring great tribulation on the earth.
The 6th seal turning of the moon red can't be after the
tribulation because a red moon gives light, whereas
after the tribulation the moon will not give light (Mt 24:29).

Jesus (etc) was (were) quoting Isaiah..

All the stars in the sky will rot. The heavens will be rolled up like a scroll. The stars will fall like leaves from a grapevine, like green figs from a fig tree.


The full moon will be covered up, the bright sun will be darkened; for the LORD who commands armies will rule on Mount Zion in Jerusalem in the presence of his assembly, in majestic splendor.

Abrams1117

unread,
Jun 24, 2013, 6:23:33 PM6/24/13
to
I re-read the post and see that this....

~One primary sign in these verses that meshes with Revelation is
the darkening of the sun and the turning of the moon to red. In
Revelation, this event is UNDENIABLY associated with the six
seal. The four gospels describe this as AFTER the tribulation,
and BEFORE the second coming. Ergo, it must precede the rapture.~

...leaves out the most important facts, that the rapture happens ON the Day of the Lord which is AFTER the moon turns red and thus, the tribulation ends.

The timing of these events plainly prove that the rapture happens after the tribulation has already ended.


Nancy

unread,
Jun 24, 2013, 7:06:41 PM6/24/13
to
~~~
Oh, I thought you were talking about the 5th Sael....when the Saints are martyred.
~~~

> ...and I have no idea what NVS says about the subject, I do know he set a date for the end which came and went years ago with nothing happening.

~~~
Nancy

Where has he said this? I've been sudying under him for about 8 years....hard study. Nowhere have I seen any such statement.

I was on a news-group with some of the Brotherhood.....never did I see them write such.

I've been to the Feast with them....never, not once did anyone say anything about a date.

Where do you get this from?

Abrams1117

unread,
Jun 24, 2013, 10:13:52 PM6/24/13
to
(Snip!)

>
> > Hi Nancy,
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > I was addressing Jon about this post...
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > ~One primary sign in these verses that meshes with Revelation is
>
> >
>
> > the darkening of the sun and the turning of the moon to red. In
>
> >
>
> > Revelation, this event is UNDENIABLY associated with the six
>
> >
>
> > seal. The four gospels describe this as AFTER the tribulation,
>
> >
>
> > and BEFORE the second coming. Ergo, it must precede the rapture.~
>
>
>
> ~~~
>
> Oh, I thought you were talking about the 5th Sael....when the Saints are martyred.


What about the 5th seal?


>
> ~~~
>
>
>
> > ...and I have no idea what NVS says about the subject, I do know he set a date for the end which came and went years ago with nothing happening.
>
>
>
> ~~~
>
> Nancy
>
>
>
> Where has he said this? I've been sudying under him for about 8 years....hard study. Nowhere have I seen any such statement.
>
>
>
> I was on a news-group with some of the Brotherhood.....never did I see them write such.
>
>
>
> I've been to the Feast with them....never, not once did anyone say anything about a date.
>
>
>
> Where do you get this from?

This was long ago, about the time this thread was created, I don`t remember the details but there were lots of jokes back then, like someone playing NVS` wife saying, You idiot! How could you set a date! You have ruined everything!

And Virgil and others were being their usual vile selves and warning about what would happen when that date came! - which it did years ago and nothing happened.

1975 all over again?

I, personally, based upon my own understanding of God`s Plan, don`t think that anything at all is even going to begin for over 200 years.







Nancy

unread,
Jun 25, 2013, 10:29:59 AM6/25/13
to
On Monday, June 24, 2013 10:13:52 PM UTC-4, Abrams1117 wrote:
> (Snip!)

> > ~~~
>
> >
>
> > Oh, I thought you were talking about the 5th Sael....when the Saints are martyred.
>
>
>
>
>
> What about the 5th seal?

~~~
Nancy
These are the Saints (the Church) that will have been killed under the 4th Seal, the Pale Horse of the Apocalpse.

When the lamb opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slaughtered because of God's word and the testimony they had given about him.
Rev 6:9 (GW)

Read The 4 Horsemen of the Apocalypse at www.zionministry.com

Abrams, maybe you have read this, but there are others that should, for this reason I'm giving the website.

People, understand there is NO rapture for the Church.
~~~>
> > > ...and I have no idea what NVS says about the subject, I do know he set a date for the end which came and went years ago with nothing happening.
>

> > Nancy
>
>
> > Where has he said this? I've been sudying under him for about 8 years....hard study. Nowhere have I seen any such statement.
> >
> > I was on a news-group with some of the Brotherhood.....never did I see them write such.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > I've been to the Feast with them....never, not once did anyone say anything about a date.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Where do you get this from?
>
>
>
> This was long ago, about the time this thread was created, I don`t remember the details but there were lots of jokes back then, like someone playing NVS` wife saying, You idiot! How could you set a date! You have ruined everything!
>
>
>
> And Virgil and others were being their usual vile selves and warning about what would happen when that date came! - which it did years ago and nothing happened.
>
>
>
> 1975 all over again?

~~~
Nancy

Abrams, I have spent 8 years studying.....it takes me longer than most people because I'm a bit dyslexic. Something happens between my eyes and my brain in reading and sometimes with numbers.

BUT, God has made a way for me.....I color code every word.....some how this makes the words register in my brain. This is why it has taken me 8 years to study what has been said at zionministry.

Nowhere have I seen where what you are saying was said. I have looked up every scripture and followed what has been said.
~~~

> I, personally, based upon my own understanding of God`s Plan, don`t think that anything at all is even going to begin for over 200 years.

~~~
Nancy

The first 3 Horsemen (three seals) will come in succession.

Between the 3rd Seal (3rd horseman) and the 4th Seal (4th Hoseman) will be a large gap.
~~~

Abrams1117

unread,
Jun 25, 2013, 5:23:26 PM6/25/13
to
About NVS setting a date?

Here is a link with info about his followers and what they say about 2003 and NVS never says they are wrong he lets them make all the posts.

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!search/neville$20stevens$20set$20a$20date/alt.religion.w-w-church-god/LG9HbL7PUrA/hmYUcVROI3QJ






> ~~~
>
>
>
> > I, personally, based upon my own understanding of God`s Plan, don`t think that anything at all is even going to begin for over 200 years.
>
>
>
> ~~~
>
> Nancy
>
>
>
> The first 3 Horsemen (three seals) will come in succession.
>
>
>
> Between the 3rd Seal (3rd horseman) and the 4th Seal (4th Hoseman) will be a large gap.


What do the horsemen represent?




>
> ~~~

Nancy

unread,
Jun 25, 2013, 7:27:29 PM6/25/13
to
Nancy

I went to this site and read what you wanted me to. Abrams, I was not apart of the Brotherhood when that was posted. I had not read any of the postings on the website, at that time. Although, that was the time I went to the Feast with them.

I had such a hard time reading and understanding what I had read....I ask Virgil to tape their meeting and mail the tapes to me. Thank God, he turned me down! Because my relatinship would have been with him ....and not God.

Whatever I claimed to stand with them on....I had no idea what they were talking about.

Now, having said that......

I see nothing wrong with what was said. The Church is being judged. I am being judged.....you are being judged! God tells us some will be resurrected to eternal life and some to the 2nd death.....JUDGMENT has already been passed!

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse
Romans 1:18-20 (NKJV)

Someting else, Abrams, God has a time-table, a set-time for His plan. God is Methodical and those with the Testimony of Jesus know this.

Abrams1117

unread,
Jun 25, 2013, 10:39:39 PM6/25/13
to
That is not what NVS said, that the church was being judged as always...if his followers said these things below TODAY what would YOU think?

At Passover 2003 you and many others will be revealed as the false prophets
you all are. God's DAY will begin. And Judgement begins at God's Church.
Two-thirds WILL PERISH, and one third will be refined in the fire of
persecution and martyrdom. (Zech 13:8)

What could happen to YOU at Passover 2003? Will YOU be keeping Passover in 2003,

...and on the RIGHT day?

...and in the RIGHT way?

WILL the DEATH ANGEL pass over YOU??????

If you adopt the WAIT & SEE approach...like many here,
...it will be TOOO LATE to choose any other option!
...your only option will have been decided!


Yes, Neville Stevens has mentioned a date. Accept it or reject it, it's up
to you. But be WARNED, it will NOT prove false.
Passover 2003 is when judgement begins on the Church.
And two-thirds of God's called out ones WILL BE STRUCK DOWN and PERISH.
(Zech 13:7-9) They are salt that has lost it's savor, and is fit only to be
thrown out and burned.


How dare you put down the greatest event of the Holy year.
It will Pass-over you. And YOU WILL SEE in the 2 years to come.
Vipers only blaspheme what they don't understand (in your case see).
You'll be blessed to kiss the dust of Joshua's feet if your lucky.
2 years, not long viper.


They were warning about a lot more than nothing, but, nothing at all happened.

Abrams1117

unread,
Jun 25, 2013, 10:41:24 PM6/25/13
to
Yup, and you only have a little more than 200 years left to wait.

Nancy

unread,
Jun 26, 2013, 8:48:45 AM6/26/13
to
~~~
Nancy
Abrams, I am telling you it is not in the writings at the website. I have printed out every article and gone over them..... color coding every word. I would remember something like that.

If that was something Virgil and the others were talking about among themselves....I don't know. It could have been...but, BUT, that doesn't mean it was a revelation from God.

Even the Disciples talked among themselves, not understanding God's time-line
~~~

Nancy

unread,
Jun 26, 2013, 8:52:26 AM6/26/13
to
Abrams, ~YOU~ are guilty of what you accuse others. YOU don't know this. Jesus Christ, Himself doesn't know this. Only the Father knows this, because it His plan....His set-time.
~~~

Abrams1117

unread,
Jun 26, 2013, 9:16:13 AM6/26/13
to
Nonsense. If you know anything at all about Bible prophecy you know that most Rabbis believe that the Messiah MUST come by the end of the first 6,000 years.

You need to study from the Bible and stop worshiping wannabe leaders.

And unlike Chuck" Missler, Harold Camping, NVS, HWA etc, the date I believe has NOT come and gone with nothing happening.

Try again.

Abrams1117

unread,
Jun 26, 2013, 9:20:21 AM6/26/13
to
(snip)


> Nancy
>
> Abrams, I am telling you it is not in the writings at the website. I have printed out every article and gone over them..... color coding every word. I would remember something like that.
>
>
>
> If that was something Virgil and the others were talking about among themselves....I don't know. It could have been...but, BUT, that doesn't mean it was a revelation from God.
>
>
>
> Even the Disciples talked among themselves, not understanding God's time-line

Maybe NVS removed it. At any rate he set 2003 as `the date` and many of his followers said all those crazy things, which he never corrected.

They are evil monsters and in my opinion in very hot water, which may turn to hot fire.



Nancy

unread,
Jun 26, 2013, 9:32:38 AM6/26/13
to
~~~
Nancy

I do not have to buy from NVS the knowledge God has given.....what does that make you?

Abrams1117

unread,
Jun 26, 2013, 12:55:06 PM6/26/13
to
Smart?

If GOD gives something to anyone I trust HIM to know what HE is doing.

And I don`t believe that GOD has ever given anything to the likes of NVS.

BTW Are people tithing to NVS to pay for those who don`t?



Nancy

unread,
Jun 26, 2013, 2:06:37 PM6/26/13
to
On Wednesday, June 26, 2013 12:55:06 PM UTC-4, Abrams1117 wrote:
> On Wednesday, June 26, 2013 10:32:38 AM UTC-3, Nancy wrote:
>
> > On Wednesday, June 26, 2013 9:20:21 AM UTC-4, Abrams1117 wrote:
>
> >
>
> > > (snip)
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > Nancy
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > Abrams, I am telling you it is not in the writings at the website. I have printed out every article and gone over them..... color coding every word. I would remember something like that.
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > If that was something Virgil and the others were talking about among themselves....I don't know. It could have been...but, BUT, that doesn't mean it was a revelation from God.
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > Even the Disciples talked among themselves, not understanding God's time-line
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > Maybe NVS removed it. At any rate he set 2003 as `the date` and many of his followers said all those crazy things, which he never corrected.
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > They are evil monsters and in my opinion in very hot water, which may turn to hot fire.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > ~~~
>
> >
>
> > Nancy
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > I do not have to buy from NVS the knowledge God has given.....what does that make you?
>
>
>
> Smart?

~~~
Nancy

Smart? In God's Word, who sold the knowledge God gave them? You believe God has given you knowledge to sell?

Abrams this speaks volumes about you.

I stand with Neville V. Stevens before I would stand with the likes of you.

As far as I know, no one pays money for those that don't. I don't even know what that means.

Are you asking me if I pay tithes to zionministry? The answer is no, I do not. And I STILL have access to the website.
~~~



3> If GOD gives something to anyone I trust HIM to know what HE is doing.

Abrams1117

unread,
Jun 26, 2013, 3:31:55 PM6/26/13
to
The NVSers are monsters. If you desire to be with them I hope you do.

Abrams1117

unread,
Jun 26, 2013, 3:37:53 PM6/26/13
to
> >
>
> > > BTW Are people tithing to NVS to pay for those who don`t?

Do you have your sword yet?

http://armstrongismlibrary.blogspot.com.br/2011/11/cog-splinter-cult-leader-hates-abraham.html

Quote
Stevens had his followers wrapped up with the idea that they would be the instruments of God that would help usher in the tribulation. They would be used as bearers of swords that would kill all who opposed Neville and the COG. Many of them bragged about carrying swords to kill those who opposed the COG.

Nancy

unread,
Jun 26, 2013, 4:29:15 PM6/26/13
to
~~~
Nancy

I don't think they will be using swords. This man has no idea what he is talking about.....he doesn't know what God says in His Word, because they will NOT be defending the COG.

About the Civil War, I think that is the absolute worst time in the history of America. Not because slavery was abolished, because the blacks had every right to come as the whites. Just as God has said about the Gentiles coming in with the Israelites. But because the cream-of-the-crop, on both side were killed off.
When, had they obey God in these matters, it would not have been necessary.

This could be what Neville was talking about as there are Gentiles in the Brotherhod.

Abrams1117

unread,
Jun 26, 2013, 6:43:34 PM6/26/13
to
This man says...

Stevens had his followers wrapped up with the idea that they would be the instruments of God that would help usher in the tribulation. They would be used as bearers of swords that would kill all who opposed Neville and the COG. Many of them bragged about carrying swords to kill those who opposed the COG.

NVS`s followers bragged about carrying swords?

The quote below sure sounds like all the NVSers I ever saw posting online...

They would threaten and bully anyone who disagreed with them. They would have all kinds of names they would call people. They were and still are nasty people. Yet through that nastiness they thought they were the most perfect COG members and Christians who ever walked the face of the earth.

This guy quotes NVS` website here...

Does any rational person believe that God won’t order retaliation when the Kingdom of God is imminent?

....this is an old article, I know what the dictionary says about imminent...I have no idea how many MORE years they will continue saying NVS is right when NOTHING happens. When will they see he is wrong?

5 years?

10 years?

20?

30?

The guy keeps `setting dates` and he is always wrong...imminent?...it has ALREADY been years.



Nancy

unread,
Jun 26, 2013, 9:08:57 PM6/26/13
to
On Wednesday, June 26, 2013 6:43:34 PM UTC-4, Abrams1117 wrote:
> On Wednesday, June 26, 2013 5:29:15 PM UTC-3, Nancy wrote:
>
> > On Wednesday, June 26, 2013 3:37:53 PM UTC-4, Abrams1117 wrote:
>
> >
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> > > > >
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> >
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> > >
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> >
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> > > > > > BTW Are people tithing to NVS to pay for those who don`t?
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> > > Do you have your sword yet?
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> > > http://armstrongismlibrary.blogspot.com.br/2011/11/cog-splinter-cult-leader-hates-abraham.html
>
> >
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> > >
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> > >
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> > > Quote
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> >
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> > > Stevens had his followers wrapped up with the idea that they would be the instruments of God that would help usher in the tribulation. They would be used as bearers of swords that would kill all who opposed Neville and the COG. Many of them bragged about carrying swords to kill those who opposed the COG.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > ~~~
>
> >
>
> > Nancy
>
> >
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> >
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> >
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> > I don't think they will be using swords. This man has no idea what he is talking about.....he doesn't know what God says in His Word, because they will NOT be defending the COG.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > About the Civil War, I think that is the absolute worst time in the history of America. Not because slavery was abolished, because the blacks had every right to come as the whites. Just as God has said about the Gentiles coming in with the Israelites. But because the cream-of-the-crop, on both side were killed off.
>
> >
>
> > When, had they obey God in these matters, it would not have been necessary.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > This could be what Neville was talking about as there are Gentiles in the Brotherhod.
>
>
>
> This man says...
~~~
Nancy

This man is a liar, simple as that.

~~~

> Stevens had his followers wrapped up with the idea that they would be the instruments of God that would help usher in the tribulation. They would be used as bearers of swords that would kill all who opposed Neville and the COG. Many of them bragged about carrying swords to kill those who opposed the COG.
>
~~~
Nancy

Nowhere in any of Neville's articles does he say anything about God telling him he is to defend the COG.

This is where the man is a liar....all of the Brotherhood and any with the Testimony of Jesus Christ know the Church will NOT be defended, but will go as ~sheep to the slaughter~ as Jesus the Christ did.

36 As it is written:
"For Your sake we are killed all day long;
We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter."
Romans 8:36 (NKJV)

Now, Abrams, stop quoting this man to me.
~~~
> NVS`s followers bragged about carrying swords?
>
>
>
> The quote below sure sounds like all the NVSers I ever saw posting online...
>
>
>
> They would threaten and bully anyone who disagreed with them. They would have all kinds of names they would call people. They were and still are nasty people. Yet through that nastiness they thought they were the most perfect COG members and Christians who ever walked the face of the earth.
>
>
~~~
Nancy

The only names I saw them call people were the same names Jesus used in His day.

I bet the Pharisees and Sadducees felt the same way.
~~~



> This guy quotes NVS` website here...
>
>
>
> Does any rational person believe that God won’t order retaliation when the Kingdom of God is imminent?

~~~
Nancy

I take it you don't believe in God's wrath?
~~~



>
> ....this is an old article, I know what the dictionary says about imminent...I have no idea how many MORE years they will continue saying NVS is right when NOTHING happens. When will they see he is wrong?
>
>
>
> 5 years?
>
>
>
> 10 years?
>
>
>
> 20?
>
>
>
> 30?
>
>
>
> The guy keeps `setting dates` and he is always wrong...imminent?...it has ALREADY been years.

~~~
Nancy
Would you like them better had they said 200 years?
~~~

Abrams1117

unread,
Jun 27, 2013, 8:15:45 AM6/27/13
to
On Wednesday, June 26, 2013 10:08:57 PM UTC-3, Nancy wrote:
> On Wednesday, June 26, 2013 6:43:34 PM UTC-4, Abrams1117 wrote:
>
> > On Wednesday, June 26, 2013 5:29:15 PM UTC-3, Nancy wrote:
>
> >
>
> > > On Wednesday, June 26, 2013 3:37:53 PM UTC-4, Abrams1117 wrote:
>
> >
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> > >
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> > > > > >
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> > > >
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> > > > > > > BTW Are people tithing to NVS to pay for those who don`t?
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> > > > Do you have your sword yet?
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> > > > http://armstrongismlibrary.blogspot.com.br/2011/11/cog-splinter-cult-leader-hates-abraham.html
>
> >
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> > >
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> > > >
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> > > > Quote
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> >
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> > >
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> > > >
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> >
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> > >
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> >
>
> > > > Stevens had his followers wrapped up with the idea that they would be the instruments of God that would help usher in the tribulation. They would be used as bearers of swords that would kill all who opposed Neville and the COG. Many of them bragged about carrying swords to kill those who opposed the COG.
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
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> > >
>
> >
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> > >
>
> >
>
> > > ~~~
>
> >
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> > >
>
> >
>
> > > Nancy
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > I don't think they will be using swords. This man has no idea what he is talking about.....he doesn't know what God says in His Word, because they will NOT be defending the COG.
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > About the Civil War, I think that is the absolute worst time in the history of America. Not because slavery was abolished, because the blacks had every right to come as the whites. Just as God has said about the Gentiles coming in with the Israelites. But because the cream-of-the-crop, on both side were killed off.
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > When, had they obey God in these matters, it would not have been necessary.
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > This could be what Neville was talking about as there are Gentiles in the Brotherhod.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > This man says...
>
> ~~~
>
> Nancy
>
>
>
> This man is a liar, simple as that.

Are you sure? He is 100% correct about them so, how can you be so sure he is wrong about what they said? And if there is any group on the Earth that would say things like that it would be the NVSers.


>
>
>
> ~~~
>
>
>
> > Stevens had his followers wrapped up with the idea that they would be the instruments of God that would help usher in the tribulation. They would be used as bearers of swords that would kill all who opposed Neville and the COG. Many of them bragged about carrying swords to kill those who opposed the COG.
>
> >
>
> ~~~
>
> Nancy
>
>
>
> Nowhere in any of Neville's articles does he say anything about God telling him he is to defend the COG.
>
>
>
> This is where the man is a liar....all of the Brotherhood and any with the Testimony of Jesus Christ know the Church will NOT be defended, but will go as ~sheep to the slaughter~ as Jesus the Christ did.
>
>
>
> 36 As it is written:
>
> "For Your sake we are killed all day long;
>
> We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter."
>
> Romans 8:36 (NKJV)
>
>
>
> Now, Abrams, stop quoting this man to me.
>
> ~~~
>
> > NVS`s followers bragged about carrying swords?
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > The quote below sure sounds like all the NVSers I ever saw posting online...
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > They would threaten and bully anyone who disagreed with them. They would have all kinds of names they would call people. They were and still are nasty people. Yet through that nastiness they thought they were the most perfect COG members and Christians who ever walked the face of the earth.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> ~~~
>
> Nancy
>
>
>
> The only names I saw them call people were the same names Jesus used in His day.
>
>
>
> I bet the Pharisees and Sadducees felt the same way.

In your mind the NVSers are equal to the Apostles. I suppose that NVS is equal to Jesus, too?

They are evil and you simply cannot see it.



>
> ~~~
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > This guy quotes NVS` website here...
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Does any rational person believe that God won’t order retaliation when the Kingdom of God is imminent?
>
>
>
> ~~~
>
> Nancy
>
>
>
> I take it you don't believe in God's wrath?

Can you define God`s wrath?




>
> ~~~
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >
>
> > ....this is an old article, I know what the dictionary says about imminent...I have no idea how many MORE years they will continue saying NVS is right when NOTHING happens. When will they see he is wrong?
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > 5 years?
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > 10 years?
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > 20?
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > 30?
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > The guy keeps `setting dates` and he is always wrong...imminent?...it has ALREADY been years.
>
>
>
> ~~~
>
> Nancy
>
> Would you like them better had they said 200 years?

If he said something was going to happen and the date had not passed without it happening how could I call him a false prophet?






>
> ~~~

Nancy

unread,
Jun 27, 2013, 10:28:49 AM6/27/13
to
On Thursday, June 27, 2013 8:15:45 AM UTC-4, Abrams1117 wrote:
> On Wednesday, June 26, 2013 10:08:57 PM UTC-3, Nancy wrote:
>
> > On Wednesday, June 26, 2013 6:43:34 PM UTC-4, Abrams1117 wrote:
>
> >
>
> > > On Wednesday, June 26, 2013 5:29:15 PM UTC-3, Nancy wrote:

~~~
Nancy
I have tried to clean this up. I don't like this new format, but what can you do.....
~~~
> > > > About the Civil War, I think that is the absolute worst time in the history of America. Not because slavery was abolished, because the blacks had every right to come as the whites. Just as God has said about the Gentiles coming in with the Israelites. But because the cream-of-the-crop, on both side were killed off.
>

~~~~
Nancy
I now know what Neville's talking about when he talked about the Civil War.

The Civil War was not started over slavery.....look it up. This is why Neville said what he has about Lincoln
~~~

>
> Are you sure? He is 100% correct about them so, how can you be so sure he is wrong about what they said? And if there is any group on the Earth that would say things like that it would be the NVSers.
>
>
~~~
Nancy
Yes, I am sure....this man is a liar. When he said Neville or any of the Brotherhood claim they are to defend the Church. I know this is a lie.
Neville Stevens and the Brotherhood know what their calling is and it has nothing to do with the Church.....other than to warn them.
~~~

> > This is where the man is a liar....all of the Brotherhood and any with the Testimony of Jesus Christ know the Church will NOT be defended, but will go as ~sheep to the slaughter~ as Jesus the Christ did.
>
>
> 36 As it is written:
> "For Your sake we are killed all day long;
> We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter."
> Romans 8:36 (NKJV)

> > Now, Abrams, stop quoting this man to me.
<snip>
>
> > > They would threaten and bully anyone who disagreed with them. They would have all kinds of names they would call people. They were and still are nasty people. Yet through that nastiness they thought they were the most perfect COG members and Christians who ever walked the face of the earth.
>
~~~
Nancy
> > The only names I saw them call people were the same names Jesus used in His day.

> > I bet the Pharisees and Sadducees felt the same way.

> In your mind the NVSers are equal to the Apostles. I suppose that NVS is equal to Jesus, too?

~~~
Nancy
No, he comes under Jesus.
~~~

> They are evil and you simply cannot see it.

~~~
Nancy
Not so. They have a job to do and nothing will stand in their way.
~~~
>
> > I take it you don't believe in God's wrath?
>
>
>
> Can you define God`s wrath?
~~~
Nancy
Look it up. You can start with the Exodus, then go to Sodom and Gomorrah. Then go to the Book of Revelation.
~~~


> If he said something was going to happen and the date had not passed without it happening how could I call him a false prophet?
>
~~~
Nancy
I have seen no evidence of Neville saying anything about a date. Even if he had it would make no difference in my understanding of the Scriptures. My foundation is in God and His Word......not in Neville.

Abrams1117

unread,
Jun 27, 2013, 3:39:55 PM6/27/13
to
Then why did you ask if I believe in God poring out HIS wrath on Sodom and Gomorrah?






>
> ~~~
>
>
>
>
>
> > If he said something was going to happen and the date had not passed without it happening how could I call him a false prophet?
>
> >
>
> ~~~
>
> Nancy
>
> I have seen no evidence of Neville saying anything about a date. Even if he had it would make no difference in my understanding of the Scriptures. My foundation is in God and His Word......not in Neville.

Good. I think they are plain awful people and that there are many drug addicts, whores and thieves who are closer to God than they are.




Abrams1117

unread,
Jun 27, 2013, 3:45:42 PM6/27/13
to
On Thursday, June 27, 2013 11:28:49 AM UTC-3, Nancy wrote:
> On Thursday, June 27, 2013 8:15:45 AM UTC-4, Abrams1117 wrote:
>
> > On Wednesday, June 26, 2013 10:08:57 PM UTC-3, Nancy wrote:
>
> >
>
> > > On Wednesday, June 26, 2013 6:43:34 PM UTC-4, Abrams1117 wrote:
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > On Wednesday, June 26, 2013 5:29:15 PM UTC-3, Nancy wrote:
>
>
>
> ~~~
>
> Nancy
>
> I have tried to clean this up. I don't like this new format, but what can you do.....
>
> ~~~
>
> > > > > About the Civil War, I think that is the absolute worst time in the history of America. Not because slavery was abolished, because the blacks had every right to come as the whites. Just as God has said about the Gentiles coming in with the Israelites. But because the cream-of-the-crop, on both side were killed off.
>
> >
>
>
>
> ~~~~
>
> Nancy
>
> I now know what Neville's talking about when he talked about the Civil War.
>
>
>
> The Civil War was not started over slavery.....look it up. This is why Neville said what he has about Lincoln

I don`t know how you got started on the Civil War, but I believe that Lincoln was chosen by God to keep the Union together which was the real reason for the war. It was religious and political fools who got us into a war that may have been avoidable in the first place. If the Confederate Army, who was within minutes of breaking through the northern lines at Gettysburg, had won they probably would have kept slavery for generations just to spite the north. Also, if the north had not taken Atlanta, when they did, the north may have lost and we would have had a divided nation.

Lincoln....

By the President of the United States of America.

A Proclamation.

The year that is drawing towards its close, has been filled with the blessings of fruitful fields and healthful skies. To these bounties, which are so constantly enjoyed that we are prone to forget the source from which they come, others have been added, which are of so extraordinary a nature, that they cannot fail to penetrate and soften even the heart which is habitually insensible to the ever watchful providence of Almighty God. In the midst of a civil war of unequaled magnitude and severity, which has sometimes seemed to foreign States to invite and to provoke their aggression, peace has been preserved with all nations, order has been maintained, the laws have been respected and obeyed, and harmony has prevailed everywhere except in the theatre of military conflict; while that theatre has been greatly contracted by the advancing armies and navies of the Union. Needful diversions of wealth and of strength from the fields of peaceful industry to the national defence, have not arrested the plough, the shuttle or the ship; the axe has enlarged the borders of our settlements, and the mines, as well of iron and coal as of the precious metals, have yielded even more abundantly than heretofore. Population has steadily increased, notwithstanding the waste that has been made in the camp, the siege and the battle-field; and the country, rejoicing in the consiousness of augmented strength and vigor, is permitted to expect continuance of years with large increase of freedom. No human counsel hath devised nor hath any mortal hand worked out these great things. They are the gracious gifts of the Most High God, who, while dealing with us in anger for our sins, hath nevertheless remembered mercy. It has seemed to me fit and proper that they should be solemnly, reverently and gratefully acknowledged as with one heart and one voice by the whole American People. I do therefore invite my fellow citizens in every part of the United States, and also those who are at sea and those who are sojourning in foreign lands, to set apart and observe the last Thursday of November next, as a day of Thanksgiving and Praise to our beneficent Father who dwelleth in the Heavens. And I recommend to them that while offering up the ascriptions justly due to Him for such singular deliverances and blessings, they do also, with humble penitence for our national perverseness and disobedience, commend to His tender care all those who have become widows, orphans, mourners or sufferers in the lamentable civil strife in which we are unavoidably engaged, and fervently implore the interposition of the Almighty Hand to heal the wounds of the nation and to restore it as soon as may be consistent with the Divine purposes to the full enjoyment of peace, harmony, tranquillity and Union.

In testimony whereof, I have hereunto set my hand and caused the Seal of the United States to be affixed.

Done at the City of Washington, this Third day of October, in the year of our Lord one thousand eight hundred and sixty-three, and of the Independence of the Unites States the Eighty-eighth.

By the President: Abraham Lincoln

Abrams1117

unread,
Jun 27, 2013, 3:51:31 PM6/27/13
to
On Thursday, June 27, 2013 11:28:49 AM UTC-3, Nancy wrote:
Well, Jesus is the I AM, the Creator, the Son of GOD, our Savoir, our High Priest in Heaven and the coming King of all the Earth. He can say what he wants. And even then he only said what God told him to say and after he has destroyed all enemies including death he will give all power back to God.

But, where the NVSers get their authority to bad mouth everyone I can only say I think it comes from quite a bit lower than Heaven.

Nancy

unread,
Jun 28, 2013, 8:55:42 AM6/28/13
to
On Thursday, June 27, 2013 3:51:31 PM UTC-4, Abrams1117 wrote:
> On Thursday, June 27, 2013 11:28:49 AM UTC-3, Nancy wrote:
<snip

> > ~~~
>
> >
>
> > Nancy
>
> >
>
> > No, he comes under Jesus.
>
>
>
> Well, Jesus is the I AM, the Creator, the Son of GOD, our Savoir, our High Priest in Heaven and the coming King of all the Earth. He can say what he wants. And even then he only said what God told him to say and after he has destroyed all enemies including death he will give all power back to God.
>
>
>
> But, where the NVSers get their authority to bad mouth everyone I can only say I think it comes from quite a bit lower than Heaven.
>
~~~
Nancy

They were not about making friends. But if you can get passed the messneger to the message.....there is an abundance of knowledge to be gleaned.

You know, Abrams, God could have used stones. He says He can call up stones to do His will.....then you would say.....I'm NOT going to listen to a stone, a dead stone.

He could have used a donkey (ass)....then you would say.....I'm NOT going to listen to an animal, a dumb animal.

But He has used humans and because you don't like the way they present the message...you say....I'm NOT going to listen to THEM.....they're mean.

I think God makes things hard to see what we are willing to do and how far we are willing to go for the knowledge He has given.

~~~
<snip>




Abrams1117

unread,
Jun 28, 2013, 2:16:44 PM6/28/13
to
On Friday, June 28, 2013 9:55:42 AM UTC-3, Nancy wrote:
> On Thursday, June 27, 2013 3:51:31 PM UTC-4, Abrams1117 wrote:
>
> > On Thursday, June 27, 2013 11:28:49 AM UTC-3, Nancy wrote:
>
> <snip
>
>
>
> > > ~~~
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > Nancy
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > No, he comes under Jesus.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Well, Jesus is the I AM, the Creator, the Son of GOD, our Savoir, our High Priest in Heaven and the coming King of all the Earth. He can say what he wants. And even then he only said what God told him to say and after he has destroyed all enemies including death he will give all power back to God.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > But, where the NVSers get their authority to bad mouth everyone I can only say I think it comes from quite a bit lower than Heaven.
>
> >
>
> ~~~
>
> Nancy
>
>
>
> They were not about making friends. But if you can get passed the messneger to the message.....there is an abundance of knowledge to be gleaned.

I don`t believe that God ever uses evil people to deliver His message.

It would more likely be Satan using evil people to deliver an evil message mixed with truth to confuse and fool others.




>
>
>
> You know, Abrams, God could have used stones. He says He can call up stones to do His will.....then you would say.....I'm NOT going to listen to a stone, a dead stone.


Who?

I will listen to any stone, rock or pebble, and so would the entire world, which is probably why it is not allowed.

>
>
>
> He could have used a donkey (ass)....then you would say.....I'm NOT going to listen to an animal, a dumb animal.

If any of my 12 dogs, the Japanese, Brazilian or African chickens, the goose the turkeys, the parakeets the finches or the cat have anything to say I will certainly listen. It will be better than listening to NVS.




>
>
>
> But He has used humans and because you don't like the way they present the message...you say....I'm NOT going to listen to THEM.....they're mean.

THE WAY?

They have less than nothing to do with the way.

>
>
>
> I think God makes things hard to see what we are willing to do and how far we are willing to go for the knowledge He has given.

Swine have no pearls to cast.


>
>
>
> ~~~
>
> <snip>

Nancy

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Jun 28, 2013, 2:49:04 PM6/28/13
to
Nancy

So be it....God will not force anyone.

.....But I keep going back to.....those thousand upon thousand of words at www.zionministry.com........not one of them is for sale.

Where as, you sold what you said God gave to you.....now, I ask who is the swine?

Abrams1117

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Jun 28, 2013, 5:02:46 PM6/28/13
to
I would have to sell a lot more books to make a red cent. I`m still about $2,000.00 in the hole on them.

Many years ago there were a lot of jokes about NVS and his tithers being so poor he couldn`t afford better food, etc. So, I have no idea if he really has tithes paid to him or not. Maybe. And they would be paying for you if they are.

And since NVS, at least according to himself seems to be half the people in prophecy, the Levite, the prophet, one of the end times witnesses etc,etc, etc, what has he taught you? Can you name one truth? Or is it all just his personal interpretation of Scripture?









And since NVS has such great information revealed to him


Ike

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Jul 5, 2013, 11:12:50 PM7/5/13
to
On 6/24/2013 5:01 PM, Abrams1117 wrote...

...nothing of any consequence to anyone, especially a Christian, given
that he doesn't have a clue as to how prophecies fit together, not even
WITHIN Revelation.

Part I: Seven seals = beginning of sorrows.
Part II: seven trumpets = the rise and rule of the unholy trinity.
Part III: seven vials = rebuke of God and beginning of the Day of the Lord.

Easy as 1,2,3...

...until fools get their hands on the Bible and try to make it say what
they want it to say instead of listening to what it does say.

Ike

Abrams1117

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Jul 5, 2013, 11:43:39 PM7/5/13
to
Said Ike who believes that Jesus is an angel, he is an angel, Satan is a woman, all angels used to be men, Moses never died, David is a Cherub and all prophecy happens three times. Could you BE more anti-Christian????



Abrams1117

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Jul 5, 2013, 11:52:19 PM7/5/13
to
On Saturday, July 6, 2013 12:12:50 AM UTC-3, Ike wrote:
> On 6/24/2013 5:01 PM, Abrams1117 wrote...
>
>
>
> ...nothing of any consequence to anyone, especially a Christian, given
>
> that he doesn't have a clue as to how prophecies fit together, not even
>
> WITHIN Revelation.
>
>
>
> Part I: Seven seals = beginning of sorrows.
>
> Part II: seven trumpets = the rise and rule of the unholy trinity.
>
> Part III: seven vials = rebuke of God and beginning of the Day of the Lord.

Really? It seems to me the wrath begins in chapter 6...

Revelation 6
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand

And the vials begin in chapter 15...

7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.

And that is only ONE example...

Just how many times does it get dark?

In Revelation...

6 12 the sun goes dark...

8 16 13rd of the sun goes dark...

9 2 the sun is darkened...

16 10 the beast`s kingdom goes dark...

Need more?

Nope, Ike only IGNORES scripture and replaces it with his personal doctrine for his church of one.

Ike

unread,
Jul 6, 2013, 7:01:14 AM7/6/13
to
On 7/5/2013 11:52 PM, Abrams1117 wrote
>> ...nothing of any consequence to anyone, especially a Christian, given
>>
>> that he doesn't have a clue as to how prophecies fit together, not even
>>
>> WITHIN Revelation.
>>
>>
>>
>> Part I: Seven seals = beginning of sorrows.
>>
>> Part II: seven trumpets = the rise and rule of the unholy trinity.
>>
>> Part III: seven vials = rebuke of God--WHERE GOD'S WRATH STARTS--and beginning of the Day of the Lord.

Everything before that is the wrath of man, then the wrath of the unholy
trinity AGAINST THE BELIEVERS.

Ike

Abrams1117

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Jul 6, 2013, 10:43:27 AM7/6/13
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Try again bugle boy....

Ike

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Jul 8, 2013, 3:14:24 PM7/8/13
to
On 7/6/2013 10:43 AM, Abrams1117 wrote:
> On Saturday, July 6, 2013 8:01:14 AM UTC-3, Ike wrote:
>> On 7/5/2013 11:52 PM, Abrams1117 wrote
>>
>>>> ...nothing of any consequence to anyone, especially a Christian, given
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>> that he doesn't have a clue as to how prophecies fit together, not even
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>> WITHIN Revelation.
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>> Part I: Seven seals = beginning of sorrows.
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>> Part II: seven trumpets = the rise and rule of the unholy trinity.
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>> Part III: seven vials = rebuke of God--WHERE GOD'S WRATH STARTS--and beginning of the Day of the Lord.
>>
>>
>>
>> Everything before that is the wrath of man, then the wrath of the unholy
>>
>> trinity AGAINST THE BELIEVERS.

Oh, and by the way, folks, when Jesus said "...many shall come, saying
'I am Christ,' and 'the time draweth near:" Go ye not after them" as
part of the Beginning of Sorrows, [Lk 21:8] it is fulfilled in the false
proclamation from men (not God, nor an angel) stated in Revelation 6:15-17.

Unfortunately, fools don't follow Jesus' outline, so they fall right
into Satan's traps.

Ike


Abrams1117

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Jul 8, 2013, 10:39:09 PM7/8/13
to
Herbert W. Armstrong published the information in 1939 that the seals in Revelation 6 are explained in Matthew 24.

But, what you have posted here is simply stupid.

This verse...


5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.


..is NOT...

15 And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders,[g] the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, 16 and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”


..it IS...


6 Now I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals;[a] and I heard one of the four living creatures saying with a voice like thunder, “Come and see.” 2 And I looked, and behold, a white horse. He who sat on it had a bow; and a crown was given to him, and he went out conquering and to conquer.


..and this is the second seal...


6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

...and this is the third seal...


7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines,

...this is the fourth...

..and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.


...and this is the fifth...


9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

..and Ike is still a funky monkey.

Ike

unread,
Jul 9, 2013, 5:47:55 AM7/9/13
to
On 7/8/2013 10:39 PM, Abrams1117 wrote:
> On Monday, July 8, 2013 4:14:24 PM UTC-3, Ike wrote:
>> On 7/6/2013 10:43 AM, Abrams1117 wrote:
>>
>>> On Saturday, July 6, 2013 8:01:14 AM UTC-3, Ike wrote:
>>
>>>> On 7/5/2013 11:52 PM, Abrams1117 wrote
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>> ...nothing of any consequence to anyone, especially a Christian, given
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>> that he doesn't have a clue as to how prophecies fit together, not even
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>> WITHIN Revelation.
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>> Part I: Seven seals = beginning of sorrows.
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>> Part II: seven trumpets = the rise and rule of the unholy trinity.
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>> Part III: seven vials = rebuke of God--WHERE GOD'S WRATH STARTS--and beginning of the Day of the Lord.
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>> Everything before that is the wrath of man, then the wrath of the unholy
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>> trinity AGAINST THE BELIEVERS.
>>
>>
>>
>> Oh, and by the way, folks, when Jesus said "...many shall come, saying
>>
>> 'I am Christ,' and 'the time draweth near:" Go ye not after them" as
>>
>> part of the Beginning of Sorrows, [Lk 21:8] it is fulfilled in the false
>>
>> proclamation from men (not God, nor an angel) stated in Revelation 6:15-17.
>
>
> Herbert W. Armstrong...

LLLLLOOOOLLLLL

Ike

Abrams1117

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Jul 9, 2013, 9:31:46 AM7/9/13
to
I also find it funny that even after it is explained to you, you still cannot understand it. As for the rest of us who do not think we are eternal angels, that Jesus is an angel and that all angels used to be men, it is easy to understand. Consider getting that reading help. Or stay a loon. The choice is yours.





Ike

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Jul 13, 2013, 5:06:30 AM7/13/13
to
On 7/9/2013 9:31 AM, Abrams1117 wrote:

>>> Herbert W. Armstrong...

LLLOOOLLLLL

Ike

Abrams1117

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Jul 13, 2013, 12:00:57 PM7/13/13
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Have you doubled the membership of your cult to two yet?

Ike

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Jul 16, 2013, 6:50:56 AM7/16/13
to
On 7/13/2013 12:00 PM, Abrams1117 wrote:
> On Saturday, July 13, 2013 6:06:30 AM UTC-3, Ike wrote:
>> On 7/9/2013 9:31 AM, Abrams1117 wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>>> Herbert W. Armstrong...
>>
>>
>>
>> LLLOOOLLLLL

'nuff said.

Ike

Abrams1117

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Jul 16, 2013, 7:43:08 PM7/16/13
to
"Mr. Armstrong contributed to sharing the word of the Lord with his community and his people and with the people throughout this nation. You can take pride in his legacy. Our prayers are with you. God bless you."
President Reagan

Abrams1117

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Jul 16, 2013, 7:44:46 PM7/16/13
to
Since you alone know the truth and no one agrees with you it should be, `nut said`.

Ike

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Jul 17, 2013, 3:23:18 PM7/17/13
to
On 7/16/2013 7:43 PM, Abrams1117 wrote:
> On Tuesday, July 16, 2013 7:50:56 AM UTC-3, Ike wrote:
>> On 7/13/2013 12:00 PM, Abrams1117 wrote:
>>
>>> On Saturday, July 13, 2013 6:06:30 AM UTC-3, Ike wrote:
>>
>>>> On 7/9/2013 9:31 AM, Abrams1117 wrote:
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>>> Herbert W. Armstrong...
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>> LLLOOOLLLLL
>>
>>
>>
>> 'nuff said.
>>
>>
>>
>> Ike
>
>
> "Mr. Armstrong....


LLLLLLLLLLLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOLLLLLLLLLLLLLL


Ike

Abrams1117

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Jul 17, 2013, 4:39:53 PM7/17/13
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Do you still believe you sang at the foundation of the world as an angel??

Ike

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Jul 18, 2013, 9:51:15 AM7/18/13
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Abrams1117

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Jul 18, 2013, 10:20:15 AM7/18/13
to
Down the block someone placed a black ceramic voo-doo devil statue on the corner along with gifts for their demon-god. Everyone is scared to even look at it. My wife won`t let me smash it because the owners may not be too happy about that. But, even that statute is smarter than you are because it does not think it may be God.

Ike

unread,
Jul 18, 2013, 9:34:58 PM7/18/13
to
On 7/18/2013 10:20 AM, Abrams1117 wrote:

>>>>> "Mr. Armstrong....
>>
>>>> LLLLLLLLLLLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOLLLLLLLLLLLLLL

Ike

Abrams1117

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Jul 18, 2013, 9:55:49 PM7/18/13
to
Countless people know the truth he taught, while no one, not a single person, past, present, or future believes in your cult of one triune nonsense.






Ike

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Jul 19, 2013, 2:03:19 PM7/19/13
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