Scoffing at the Last Days That Were To Be Not?
@tampabay.rr.com Pastor Dave
Someone (it's not important who) wrote:
> Yes, many do believe the Scriptures that Christ
> would return again. But what they fail to say
> is that the Bible says that Jesus said no one on
> earth would see him again. Thus his return
> would be invisible to human eyes. John 14:19
>
> "Before long, the world will not see me anymore,
> but you will see me. Because I live, you also
> will live." (NIV)
Yup! Very clear! :)
> Thus if Christendom teaches that the world will
> visibly see Jesus' return, either Jesus is a liar,
> or they are. I choose the latter.
And that is exactly what I tell them! They think they have
the third option of making "anymore" mean something like,
"until my doctrine says we will".
I will say that while He Himself was probably "invisible"
(if He was seen, it was as Spirit), what happened wasn't
(Jewish War) and there were chariots with angelic soldiers
seen in the skies over Jerusalem and especially over the
Temple and the massive, 40 ft doors swung open with
a loud voice that said; "Let us depart from this place!"
It is a fact that they understand what was preached about
Christ's return (by the "cloud" statement) was that it would
be in that manner (spiritual), since even one of the priests
who mocked Him when He was alive, stood behind the walls
and cried out; "The Son cometh!" as the Romans bombarded
the city with their stones, which were painted white and were
set on fire, fulfilling the following, right down to the weight!:
"And a great hail, as the size of a talent, came down
out of the heaven upon men! And men blasphemed
God from the plague of the hail, because its plague
is exceedingly great!" - Revelation 16:19
Remember that Revelation is a book of symbolism, period!
And that's even when the Futurists don't want it to be! :)
This was just before the "other-worldly" events took place
right there and understand that "The Son cometh!" was
said in a mocking tone, as if they were making fun of
the idea. They were continuing the "scoffing" of Christ
and His return. Little did they know (but were about to
know) that Christ had returned and was circling above!
Yet with all of this (and tons and tons more of things
being fulfilled and even considering Luke 21:20-22),
the Futurists STILL won't believe that He returned!
It fits every single thing He said, if we just let Scripture
interpret Scripture, since Jesus said the same exact
things that we find in fulfilled prophecies in the OT,
instead of Futurists, when they are shown this, saying;
"Just because it wasn't literal in the Old Testament,
that doesn't mean that Jesus wasn't being literal!"
...and yet claiming to let Scripture interpret Scripture!
And furthermore, this is the same as saying that Jesus
came to speak in "opposite of the way God always spoke
to His people" speak!
Tell me, anyone, please... How is THAT letting Scripture
interpret Scripture?! How?! Huh?!? (:
And it is to say that every time Jesus looked right at His
disciples and taught them and said very plainly to them,
"When YOU see...", that "what He REALLY meant was..."
That's their favorite word within their favorite saying!
The word "really" (as if Jesus didn't know how to properly
communicate what He wanted to say) within the term,
"really meant was...".
Whenever clear and simple, simple, simple statements
in Scripture (time statements) don't match up to their
false doctrine, they tell us how, "Jesus REALLY meant".
Please! He said what He meant and they'll instantly take
the "fantastical, super sci-fi" statements as physically literal,
contrary to how they were always used throughout Scripture
and work as hard as is necessary to try to "spiritualize away"
the clear and simple time statements that they had never
even noticed before, but are as plain as day and once
shown them, have even said that it doesn't matter if Jesus
got that wrong anyway and that a prophet could get that
part (the time involved) wrong and still pass the test of
Deut 18:20-22! What?!? Please!!!
But if they have not been "indoctrinated" into Futurism
and they really get their doctrine "only from what the
Bible says and not from Futurist material", as they claim,
then how could it be possible that they have never even
noticed these time statements before, considering that
there are hundreds of them in the New Testament alone?!
The truth of the matter is, that would be impossible!
Honest it would! In fact, "really" it would! <lol!> :)
And we haven't even mentioned the Old Testament,
which is what they preached from. I mean, did it
ever require accurate time frames? Well, the truth
is, any time frame ever stated that allowed people
to get even close to specific, had to be accurately
fulfilled, or the prophet was killed! Usually by God!
Let's look at a prophet of old and see if "time" was
involved in the testing of this prophet! Was time
ever the thing what determined if a prophet was
a true or false prophet?
Let's take a look and see! :)
Hananiah said that within two years, all would be
brought back from Babylon and Jerusalem would
be its own again.
Jeremiah said, "Hey, that would be way cool, dude!
And I hope it does happen! But you know, lots of
dudes run around claiming 'Peace and safety!' and
yet, it just ain't so! So like, what you said just won't
come to pass WITHIN THOSE TWO YEARS! Oh and
hey, dude? Jehovah's got a message for you! Yer
gonna die in a year, 'kay? I know, I know, bummer!"
So what happened? Let's take a look and see! :)
Jeremiah 28:1-17
3) Within two years I will again bring into this place
all the vessels of the house of Jehovah which [King]
Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon took away from
this place and brought them to Babylon.
4) And I will bring again to this place Jeconiah the
son of Jehoiakim, king of Judah, with all the exiles
of Judah who went into Babylon, says Jehovah.
For I will break the yoke of the king of Babylon.
5) Then the prophet Jeremiah said to the prophet
Hananiah in the presence of the priests, and in the
presence of all the people who stood in the house
of Jehovah,
6) even the prophet Jeremiah said, Amen! May
Jehovah do so; may Jehovah confirm your words
which you have prophesied, to bring again the
vessels of the house of Jehovah and all the exiles,
from Babylon into this place.
7) But hear now this word that I speak in your ears
and in the ears of all the people:
8) The prophets who have been before me and before
you from antiquity prophesied against many lands and
against great kingdoms, of war and of evil and of plague.
9) As for the prophet who prophesies of peace, when
the word of the prophet shall come to pass, the prophet
shall be known as one whom Jehovah has truly sent him.
10) Then Hananiah the prophet took the yoke from the
prophet Jeremiah's neck and broke it.
11) And Hananiah spoke for the eyes of the people saying,
So says Jehovah, Even so I will break the yoke of [King]
Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon, from the neck of all
nations within the time of two years. And the prophet
Jeremiah went his way.
12) Then the Word of Jehovah came to Jeremiah, after
Hananiah the prophet had broken the yoke from the neck
of the prophet Jeremiah, saying,
13) Go and tell Hananiah, saying, So says Jehovah, You
have broken yokes of wood, but you shall make instead
of them yokes of iron.
14) For so says Jehovah of Hosts, the God of Israel: I have
put a yoke of iron on the neck of all these nations to serve
Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon. And they shall serve him.
And I have given him the beasts of the field also.
15) Then the prophet Jeremiah said to Hananiah the prophet,
Hear now, Hananiah, Jehovah has not sent you, but you have
made this people trust in a lie!
16) So Jehovah says this, Behold, I send you away from the
face of the earth! You shall die this year, because you have
spoken apostasy against Jehovah.
17) And Hananiah died the same year in the seventh month.
Well, Hananiah did die in a year! And why is that? Was it
just because Nebby wasn't gonna let Jerusalem go? Or was
it instead because of the TIME FRAME that Hananiah stated?
Well, it wasn't just because King Nebby wasn't gonna let the
Jews go. That's not it at all, since eventually they would get
their land back and be out from under his thumb and so that
was a given! :)
The TRUTH OF IT IS, that his prophecy was NOT false because
he said they would not be ruled over by Nebby forever. Rather,
his prophecy was false SPECIFICALLY because of the AMOUNT
OF TIME that he prophesied they would get their stuff back in!
Two years, remember???
Paul noted this as well about people who said "peace"
and he noted that it was THEY who should keep watch!;
"For when they say, Peace and safety! Then suddenly
destruction comes upon them, like the travail to the one
having babe in womb, and not at all shall they escape."
- 1 Thessalonians 5:3
In vs 4-5, he goes on to say that it is they who knew
and who should keep watch.
There as no "big gap" here, that the Futurists try to place
in there, beginning with Daniel and the 70 weeks! Going
back to Jeremiah for a minute, whom we have looked at
to note that for him (as all of the others), time was relevant,
when a specific amount of time as given!
And now, what about the 70 years of Jeremiah, until Nebby
couldn't have them any more? What if that had been longer?
What if man inserted a "gap" between the 69th year and the
last year, as the Futurists do with Daniel's 70 weeks?
Did that happen? Did he place a gap there? Or did it
occur within the 70 years?
Well, Daniel said that he base the "70 weeks of years"
on Jeremiah's 70 years and it being just about up when
he (Daniel) wrote what he did. But if we take the idea
of the Futurist approach, then we must place a gap there
between the 69th and 70th years of Jeremiah's prophecy,
since Daniel said that his 70 weeks of years were based
on Jeremiah's 70 years almost being up!
Daniel 9:1-2
1) In the first year of Darius, the son of Ahasuerus,
of the seed of the Medes, who was made king over
the realm of the Chaldeans,
2) in the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, understood
the number of the years by books, which had been
a Word of Jehovah to Jeremiah the prophet, that He
would accomplish SEVENTY YEARS in the desolations
of Jerusalem.
So according to Futurism, it wasn't an actual "70 years".
But then, how could Daniel have based his own prophecy
on it, when if there's a gap there, then Daniel could not
possibly have known that Jeremiah's prophecy was about
to be over with, since the "gap" they place into Daniel's
prophecy is an "indefinite" one and according to them,
we cannot know how long the "gap" was to be!
If there is indeed a gap in Daniel's 70 weeks, then there
MUST be a gap in Jeremiah's 70 years, because as Daniel
said, he based his 70 weeks of years on that prophecy!
So either there was to be a gap in both, or there was to
be a gap in neither! Those are your ONLY two options!
So was there a gap in the 70 years of Jeremiah? No!
Of course there wasn't! Otherwise, how could Daniel
know that the 70 years was about to end, if there was
an "indefinite gap" between the 69th and 70th year,
like the one that the Futurists try to place between
the 69th and 70th weeks of Daniel's prophecy?!
Besides this, what was prophesied by Jeremiah,
DID occur after the 70 YEARS were up!
So no, there was no gap in the "70 year prophecy"
of Jeremiah, which means that there was no "gap"
in the "70 weeks of years" prophecy of Daniel!
But getting back to the issue at hand...
Peter also noted this idea of some yelling "Peace and safety"
and them being wrong, because they actually were in the
last days right then, in their time/generation!
"...first, knowing this, that during the last days scoffers
will come walking according to their own lusts and saying,
Where is the promise of His coming? For from which time
the fathers fell asleep, all things remain so from the
beginning of creation." - 2 Peter 3:3-4
In his second letter to them, quoted from above, he noted
that it WAS the last days then, just as Scripture says it was!
Hebrews 1:1-2
1) In many ways and in various ways of old, God spoke
to the fathers in the prophets;
2) IN THESE LAST DAYS He spoke to us in the Son,
whom He appointed heir of all; through whom He
indeed made the ages;
Peter was RESPONDING to the fact that scoffers HAD come,
asking, "Where is this Jesus?!". And Peter simply did not say
that the Lord had told them to "skip it and don't bother noting
it the first time you see scoffers"! He simply DID NOT say that!
So use some common sense here, people! These people would
never have scoffed, if Jesus and the Apostles had taught the idea
that maybe it wouldn't happen for almost 2,000 years and counting!
If that was what they taught, then why didn't Peter just tell them
to respond with;
"Hey, guys! You know very well that we told you that it
might not happen for thousands of years! So why scoff
about His return not having happened yet?!"
Better yet, why would they even bother to write to Peter at all,
to tell him what was happening? Why wouldn't they have just
said that immediately, right back to the scoffing??? Hello???
The truth is, that they were beginning to wonder themselves
what the delay was. I think maybe the scoffers were indeed
getting to them a bit and so, they wrote to Peter, wondering
what was up. So Peter reinforced their faith by telling them;
"Hey, don't you remember that I told you that in the last days,
scoffers would come? So people, this is not a bad thing and
it shouldn't cause you to doubt! Rather, it should reinforce
your faith, because it tells us that we are in the last days NOW
and that means that Jesus WILL be returning VERY SOON!!!"
But what do Futurists do with this Scripture??? Well, Futurists
try to pretend that Peter was talking about our day, since there
are people today who scoff at the idea of Jesus' return and try
to pretend that there haven't ever been any scoffers who scoffed
about this until after they were born in the 20th century! Huh?!?
And when shown how ridiculous that is, what do they do?
They INVENT ON THE FLY the following;
"Well, the last days started then, but are still going on now!"
Now did they ever believe that before? Of course not and it
is a ridiculous claim!!! I the last days equal all days since Christ,
then all days are the last days and the term is meaningless!!!
Besides this, these are the same people who stand up in church
and shout; "Yes! WE are THE generation that is in the last days!".
But yet, when I show them how Jesus said (Matt 24:34) that it
was their generation that was in the last days, then, all of the
sudden, the word should be translated as "race", or "nation"!
Why the sudden, "made up on the fly" change???
Puhlease, you self-contradictory hypocrites! Go try to fool
someone else! It is your fear of death acting up again! :)
Folks, when the defense of your doctrine consists of;
"Whatever I can make up on the fly, no matter how ridiculous,
to try to avoid having to actually deal with the issue at hand
an no matter how non-sensical it sounds."
...then your doctrine is in trouble and what you should be doing,
instead of spewing out such 100% lame responses, is sitting down
and examining and questioning your doctrine ad if it doesn't pass
the smell (common sense) test, then tossing it!
It is not tossing Christianity, to toss a bad doctrine! And that
folks, is the problem! You claim not to be "indoctrinated" in
this doctrine that you hold, but yet, you believe that if you
toss your doctrine, that you are tossing Christianity! Why?!
Have you ever asked yourself; "How can it be that I would
be tossing Christianity, by tossing what has been shown to
be an extremely ridiculous doctrine?".
Can anyone show me where any of the writers promoted
the idea that "the last days are starting now, but will
continue on for thousands of years", which is what they
respond with, when they are shown that the Bible says
that the last days were then?
No, of course not! And if you can't, then why do YOU
promote that idea?! Simply because you do it as your
fallback position that you invented immediately after
being shown when THE BIBLE SAYS the last days were,
because you are simply not willing to let go of the idea
that it is all about you, today, because for you, unless
it is all about you, today and unless it is all about the
physical world (while you hypocritically say that your
faith is all about the spiritual for you), then to you,
the Bible is a useless waste of paper and ink! And
the sad part is, that when I say that, almost every one
of you have remained SILENT in response because you
know that it is the TRUTH! And truth silences the mockers,
which is what YOU are, when you mock the idea of what
Jesus and the Apostles ACTUALLY taught! And that is why
those of you who did ever respond, did so by asking;
"Well, if the Bible is not all about us, then what good is it?"
Yes, THAT is the response of the Futurist an THAT is why
the Futurist hangs on to their doctrine! NOT because they
actually believe it to be the truth! NOT because they can
actually prove it from Scripture, because that is taken away
from them when they are shown what the verses actually
say and that the words that they add to them simply are
not there! Rather, they believe what they do, EVEN AFTER
being shown these things and being unable to refute them
(which is why they invent things like, "the last days started
then, but ar still going on now", when shown for the first
time something they never noticed before, such as Heb 1),
because if it's not all about them today, then as they said...
"what good is it?". (:
Is that how you people want to live your lives?! Believing
what you know you cannot sustain with Scripture, because
to you, if it's not all about this physical world and it's not
about you today, it is useless?
And where does this belief stem from? Why is it that it
became so popular so quickly? Simple! People were
told that they wouldn't die and that they would get to
live here, on Earth, forever and they are afraid to die!
THEY ARE AFRAID TO DIE!!! Now what does THAT say
about their faith?! What does it say about whether their
faith is real, or if it is placed on this physical world and
the idea that any god who can't, or won't make it so that
they will live here forever, is useless, which is what they
are saying, when they say the Bible, His word, is useless
if it is not all about that!
It is truly sad to see this state of the so called "Christian"!
I say "so called", since by their own admission, they place
their faith in the physical and not in the spiritual. (:
--
Pastor Dave
"The face is the mirror of the mind and eyes without speaking
confess the secrets of the heart." -Saint Jerome
Abrams1117
wrote:
> Someone (it's not important who) wrote:
>
> > Yes, many do believe the Scriptures that Christ
> > would return again. But what they fail to say
> > is that the Bible says that Jesus said no one on
> > earth would see him again. Thus his return
> > would be invisible to human eyes. John 14:19
>
> > "Before long, the world will not see me anymore,
> > but you will see me. Because I live, you also
> > will live." (NIV)
>
> Yup! Very clear! :)
NONSENSE. If the Bible said that there would be no 'futurists'.
John 14:
19 Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see
me.
Before long? What happened before long?
30 I will not say much more to you, for the prince of this world is
coming. He has no hold over me, 31 but he comes so that the world may
learn that I love the Father and do exactly what my Father has
commanded me.
Satan came had tricked them into crucifying him. Where did he go? To
the Father.
Did he say he would never come back?
28 “You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’
>
> > Thus if Christendom teaches that the world will
> > visibly see Jesus' return, either Jesus is a liar,
> > or they are. I choose the latter.
Jesus Christ never, ever said he would never come back. What is
sickening is that people who have read the Bible and know it says in
many many places that he will come back, make up utter nonsense like
this. Could they be this blind? How can this be explained? They take a
statement that says:"Before long, the world will not see me
anymore, but you will see me.
And they change it to say: Before long I will leave and never ever
come back to the Earth.
Then they take verses that they have read hundreds of times and say
these do not mean what they do say!:
Rev.19
11 I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse,
whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and
wages war. 12 His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many
crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself.
13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word
of G-D. 14 The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white
horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 Coming out of
his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He
will rule them with an iron scepter.”[a] He treads the winepress of
the fury of the wrath of G-D Almighty. 16 On his robe and on his thigh
he has this name written:
Rev. 20:
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given
authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded
because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of G-D.
They[a] had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received
its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and
reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Matthew 16:27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's
glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according
to what he has done.
Matthew 23:39 For I tell you, you wil not see me again until you
say, 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.'
Matthew 24:27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible
even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.
Matthew 24:30 "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in
the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. they will see
the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great
glory.
Matthew 24: 36-39 No one knows about that day or hour, not even the
angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. As it was in the
days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. For in
the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying
and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; and they
knew nothng about what would happen until the flood came and took them
all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.
Matthew 24:42 "Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what
day your Lord will come."
Mathew 26:64 "Yes it is as you say," Jesus replied. "But I say to
all of you: In the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the
right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."
Mark 8:36-38 What good is it for a man to gain the whole world, yet
forfeit his soul? Or what can a man give in exchange for his soul? If
anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful
generation, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when he comes in his
Father's glory with holy angels.
Mark 13:26-27 At that time men will see the Son of Man coming in
clouds with great power and glory. And he will send his angels and
gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to
the ends of the heavens.
Mark 13:35-37 Therefore keep watch because you do not know when the
owner of the house will come back - whether in the evening, or at
midnight, or when the rooster crows, or at dawn. If he comes
suddenly, do not let him find you sleeping. What I say to you, I say
to everyone: 'Watch!'
Mark 14:61-62 Again the high priest asked him, "Are you the Christ,
the Son of the Blessed One?" "I am," said Jesus. "And you will see the
Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Might One and coming on
the clouds of heaven."
Luke 18:8 I tell you, he will see that they get justice, and
quickly. However, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on
the earth?"
Luke 21:25-28 "There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On
the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring
and tossing of the sea. Men will faint from terror, apprehensive of
what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken.
At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power
and great glory. When these things begin to take place, stand up and
lift your heads, becasue your redemption is drawing near."
Acts 1:11 "Men of Galilee," they said. "why do you stand here looking
into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into
heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into
heaven."
Acts 3:19-21 Repent, then, and turn to G-D, so that your sins may
be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord, and
that he may send the Christ, who has been appointed for you - even
Jesus. He must remain in heaven until the time comes for G-D to
restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.
1 Corinthians 1:7 Therefore you do not lack any spiritual gift as
you eagerly wait for our Lord Jesus Christ to be revealed.
1 Corinthians 4:5 Therefore judge nothing before the appointed
time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is
hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men's hearts. At
that time each will receive his praise from G-D.
1 Corinthians 11:26 For whenever you eat this bread and drink this
cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes.
1 Corinthians 15:23-24 But each in his own turn: Christ, the
firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. Then the
end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to G-D the Father after
he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.
Philippians 3:20 But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly
await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, who, by the power
that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform
our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body.
Colossians 3:4 When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you
also will appear with him in glory.
1 Thessalonians 1:9 for they themselves report what kind of
reception you gave us. They tell how you turned to G-D from idols to
serve the living and true G-D, and to wait for his Son from heaven,
whom he raised from the dead - Jesus, who rescues us from the coming
wrath.
1 Thessalonians 2:19 For what is our hope, our joy, or the crown in
which we will glory in the presence of our Lord Jesus when he comes?
Is it not you? Indeed, you are our glory and joy.
1 Thessalonians 3:13 May he strengthen your hearts so that you will
be blameless and holy in the presence of our G-D and Father when our
Lord Jesus comes with all his holy ones.
1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:4 According to the Lord's own word, we tell
you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the
Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For
the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with
the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of god, and the
dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive
and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to
meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
Therefore encourage each other with these words. Now, brothers, about
times and dates we do not need to write to you, for you know very well
that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. While
people are saying, "Peace and safety," destruction will come on them
suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not
escape. But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day
should suprise you like a thief.
1 Thessalonians 5:23 May God himself, the G-D of peace, sanctify you
through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept
blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Thessalonians 1:7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to
us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from
heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels.
2 Thessalonians 2:1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, not to become
easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter
supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has
already come.
2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom
the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destory
by the splendor of his coming.
1 Timothy 6:13-16 I charge you to keep this command without spot or
blame until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, which G-D will
bring about in his own time - G-D the blessed and only Ruler, the King
of Kings and Lord of lords, who alone is immortal and who lives in
unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be
honor and might forever. Amen
2 Timothy 4:8 Now there is in store for me the crown of
righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me
on that day - and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for
his appearing.
Titus 2:12 It teaches us to say "No" to ungodliness and worldly
passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this
present age, while we wait for the blessed hope - the glorious
appearing of our great G-D and Savior, Jesus Christ, who gave himself
for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a
people that are his very own, eager to do what is good.
Hebrews 9:28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of
many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to
bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.
Hebrews 3:7 For in just a very little while, "He who is coming will
come and will not delay.
James 5:7-9 Be patient, then, brothers, until the Lord's coming.
See how the farmer waits for the land to yield its valuable crop and
how patient he is for the autumn and spring rains. You too, be
patient and stand firm, because the Lord's coming is near. Don't
grumble against each other, brothers, or you will be judged. The
Judge is standing at the door!
1 Peter 1:3-5 Praise be to the G-D and Father of our Lord Jesus
Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living
hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, and ito
an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade - kept in heaven
for you, who through faith are shielded by G-D's power until the
coming of the salvataion that is ready to be revealed in the last
time.
1 Peter 1:13 Therefore, prepare your minds for action; be self-
controlled; set your hope fully on the grace to be given you when
Jesus Christ is revealed.
1 Peter 2:12 Live such good lives among the pagans that though they
acuse you of doing wrong, they may see your good deeds and glorify G-D
on the day he visits us.
1 Peter 4:13 But rejoice that you participate in the suffering of
Christ, so that you may be overjoyed when his glory is revealed.
1 Peter 5:4 And when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive
the crown of glory that will never fade away.
2 Peter 1:16 We did not follow cleverly invented stories when we told
you about the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were
eyewitnesses of his majesty.
2 Peter 3:3 First of all, you must understand that in the last days
scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires.
They will say, "Where is the 'coming' he promised?
2 Peter 3:8-10 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends:
With the Lord a day is ike a thousand years, and a thousand years are
like a day. The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some
understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to
peris, but everyone to come to repentance. But the day of the Lord
will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; The
elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it
will be laid bare.
1 John 2:28 And now, dear children, continue in him, so that when
he appears we may be confident and unashamed before him at his coming.
1 John 3:2 Dear friends, now we are like children of G-D, and what
we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he
appears, We shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.
Everyone who has this hope in him purifies himself, just as he is
pure.
Jude 1:14 Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men:
"See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy
ones to judge everyone, and to convict all the ungodly of all the
ungodly acts they have done in the ungodly way, and of all the harsh
words ungodly sinners have spoken against him."
Revelation 1:4 To the seven churches in the province of Asia:
Grace and peace to you from who is, and who was, and who is to come,
Revelation 1:7 Look, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye
will see him, even those who pierced him; and all the peoples of the
earth will mourn because of him. So shall it be! Amen. I am the
Alpha and the Omega, " says the Lord G-D, who is, and who was, and who
is to come, the Almighty."
Revelation 3:11 I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so
that no one will take your crown. Him who overcomes I will make a
pillar in the temple of my G-D. Never again will he leave it.
Revelation 16:15 "Behold, I come like a thief! Blessed is he who
stays awake and keeps his clothes with him, so that he may not go
naked and be shamefully exposed."
Revelation 22:12 Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and
I will give to everyone according to what he has done. I am the Alpha
and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.
Revelation 22:20-21 He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I am
coming soon." Amen, Come, Lord Jesus. The grace of the Lord Jesus be
with G-D's people. Amen.
http://www.jesusiscoming.com/Scripture.htm
Now, re-write every one of those Scriptures, even more, and many
others from the Old Testament to say 'invisibly'. This, without adding
the hundreds maybe thousands of verses which describe G-D's Kingdom
when the meek inherit the Earth. You can re-write the entire Bible,
but it will not change what is written in truth.
*******
Abrams1117
What if man inserted a gap between the 69th and 70 weeks?!
Stop outright lying. Preterists insert 37 years between the 69th and
70th week.
You pretend that Preterists do not add a gap by trying to use
Jeremiah's 70 years as a cover. But that is what you do and you try to
dent it!
>
> > Did that happen? Did he place a gap there? Or did it
> > occur within the 70 years?
>
> > Well, Daniel said that he base the "70 weeks of years"
> > on Jeremiah's 70 years and it being just about up when
> > he (Daniel) wrote what he did.
NONSENSE! From someone who said they have read the Bible 15 times!
Daniel knew from reading Jeremiah that their 70 years of captivity
under Babylon was nearing its end. He, an old man, had been one of
those captured. Then he prayed admitting their sin of not letting the
land have its sabbath rests for (490 years - 70 years of rest for the
land) and praying for mercy for his people. Then an angel came to him
and said there will be 70 weeks of years. Daniel, just like all the
prophets, MADE UP NOTHING - AS YOU ARE SAYING - he recorded what he
saw (Isaiah saw Jesus Christ as a human, the Prophet David saw Jesus
Christ's crucifixion etc.) and what he was told just like all the
prophets. You scream that people do not know the Old Testament?! Then
you condemn yourself! Because no one could make these mistakes. These
are not mistakes.
>But if we take the idea
> > of the Futurist approach, then we must place a gap there
> > between the 69th and 70th years of Jeremiah's prophecy,
> > since Daniel said that his 70 weeks of years were based
> > on Jeremiah's 70 years almost being up!
Non sense. It is not in Scripture. As for the gap in Daniel everyone
can see it without even trying! LOOK!:
Does verse 26 say that after 69 weeks the Messiah, Jesus Christ will
be crucified? When was this? The year A.D. 33.
Does verse 26 say the city of Jerusalem and the temple will be
destroyed?
What year did this happen? A..D 70.
A gap of 37 years.
Daniel 9:
25 “Know and understand this: From the time the word goes out to
restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One,[f] the ruler,
comes, there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens.’ It will
be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. 26
After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be put to death
and will have nothing.[g] The people of the ruler who will come will
destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood:
War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed. 27
He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’[h] In the middle
of the ‘seven’[i] he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at
the temple[j] he will set up an abomination that causes desolation,
until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.[k]”[l]
Now, who is it that teaches there is this gap before the 70th week in
verse 27?
PRETERISTS.
But, they pretend they do not do this. It is a lie. They know what
Scripture says. THEY KNOW THIS VERY WELL. THEY ARE WITHOUT EXCUSE AND
ARE CONDEMNING THEMSELVES.
******
Abrams1117
IT WAS.
> > > But then, how could Daniel have based his own prophecy
> > > on it
DANIEL BASED NOTHING! NOW THESE EVIL PEOPLE ARE SAYING THAT MAN WROTE
THE BIBLE!!!!!
>, when if there's a gap there, then Daniel could not
> > > possibly have known that Jeremiah's prophecy was about
> > > to be over with, since the "gap" they place into Daniel's
> > > prophecy is an "indefinite" one and according to them,
> > > we cannot know how long the "gap" was to be!
>
> > > If there is indeed a gap in Daniel's 70 weeks, then there
> > > MUST be a gap in Jeremiah's 70 years, because as Daniel
> > > said, he based his 70 weeks of years on that prophecy!
Preterists say Daniel based his prophecy upon Jeremiah's prophecy.
Do you see their first mistake?
It was not Jeremiah's prophecy. Prophecy comes from G-D. Only G-D
Almighty declares the end form the beginning. First, they deny G-D.
Second, it was G-D's prophecy, not Daniel's.
Third, so how could Daniel base the prophecy on anything?
He had nothing to do with it.
The same angel, Gabriel, who would go to Joseph in another 550 years,
TOLD Daniel the prophecy:
20 While I was speaking and praying, confessing my sin and the sin of
my people Israel and making my request to the LORD my G-D for his holy
hill— 21 while I was still in prayer, Gabriel, the man I had seen in
the earlier vision, came to me in swift flight about the time of the
evening sacrifice. 22 He instructed me and said to me, “Daniel, I have
now come to give you insight and understanding. 23 As soon as you
began to pray, a word went out, which I have come to tell you, for you
are highly esteemed. Therefore, consider the word and understand the
vision:
24 “Seventy ‘sevens’[c] are decreed for your people and your holy
city to finish[d] transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for
wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision
and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place.[e]
25 “Know and understand this: From the time the word goes out to
restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One,[f] the ruler,
comes, there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens.’ It will
be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. 26
After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be put to death
and will have nothing.[g] The people of the ruler who will come will
destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood:
War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed. 27
He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’[h] In the middle
of the ‘seven’[i] he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at
the temple[j] he will set up an abomination that causes desolation,
until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.[k]”[l]
What did Daniel base the prophecy on? NOTHING.
Gabriel told him the prophecy.
I do not know the Bible?
You do not know G-D.
Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.
*******
Abrams1117
Scripture itself condemns these Preterists, even from their own
mouths. It is not by chance they use these verses and then these
verses themselves speak against them.
WHAT IS THE PRETERIST ARGUMENT?
DO YOU KNOW?
THEY SAY THE GAP IS TOO LONG.
WHAT DOES SCRIPTURE SAY ABOUT THEM?
2 Peter 3
1This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I
stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:
2That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the
holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord
and Saviour:
3Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers,
walking after their own lusts,
4And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the
fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the
beginning of the creation.
5For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of G-D the
heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in
the water:
6Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water,
perished:
7But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are
kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and
perdition of ungodly men.
8But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is
with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count
slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any
should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the
which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements
shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are
therein shall be burned up.
11Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner
of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of G-D, wherein
the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall
melt with fervent heat?
13Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and
a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
14Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be
diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and
blameless.
15And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even
as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto
him hath written unto you;
16As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in
which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are
unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures,
unto their own destruction.
17Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware
lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from
your own stedfastness.
18But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour
Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.
Read their own words on this subject:
>, when if there's a gap there, then Daniel could not
> > > possibly have known that Jeremiah's prophecy was about
> > > to be over with, since the "gap" they place into Daniel's
> > > prophecy is an "indefinite" one and according to them,
> > > we cannot know how long the "gap" was to be!
> > > If there is indeed a gap in Daniel's 70 weeks, then there
> > > MUST be a gap in Jeremiah's 70 years, because as Daniel
> > > said, he based his 70 weeks of years on that prophecy!
>, when if there's a gap there, then Daniel could not
> > > possibly have known that Jeremiah's prophecy was about
> > > to be over with,
Does not Scripture say Daniel prayed to G-D asking for forgiveness
because he knew from reading Jeremiah that they 70 years were almost
over? Now, here is the good part. Didn't Daniel do this before Gabriel
gave him the prophecy? So, how can Preterists insist that Daniel could
not have know the 70 years were almost finished because he based his
prophecy on Jeremiah's even before Gabriel gave him the later
prophecy? That is where they go wrong. They say Daniel wrote the
prophecy. But, Scripture says G-D gave it to him.
>since the "gap" they place into Daniel's
Preterists place a gap. then they cry that the Futurists gap is too
long, just as 2 Peter warns, they say it is too long! And they scoff.
How many times have the said that it is too long?
> > > prophecy is an "indefinite" one and according to them,
> > > we cannot know how long the "gap" was to be!
The Preterist gap between A.D. 33 and A.D. 70 could not have been
known either. But, they do not want you to think of this fact. Then
they say this to we must know! - what Daniel was never even told.
> > > If there is indeed a gap in Daniel's 70 weeks, then there
> > > MUST be a gap in Jeremiah's 70 years,
Did G-D say there was a gap in Jeremiah's 70 years? NO.
Do Preterists say there is a gap in Daniel's 70 weeks? Yes.
>because as Daniel
> > > said, he based his 70 weeks of years on that prophecy!
Daniel based nothing. Daniel was a Prophet. He reported. He did not
write. He is a Saint. G-D will call and he will answer and have work
to do in the coming Kingdom of G-D upon the Earth.
*******
@tampabay.rr.com Pastor Dave
<John...@peoplepc.com> spake thusly:
> Pastor Dave wrote:
>
>> Someone (it's not important who) wrote:
>>
>>> Yes, many do believe the Scriptures that Christ
>>> would return again. But what they fail to say
>>> is that the Bible says that Jesus said no one on
>>> earth would see him again. Thus his return
>>> would be invisible to human eyes. John 14:19
>>>
>>> "Before long, the world will not see me anymore,
>>> but you will see me. Because I live, you also
>>> will live." (NIV)
>>
>> Yup! Very clear! :)
>
> NONSENSE. If the Bible said that there would
> be no 'futurists'.
Sure there would. You guys prove that every day
that you ignore what Scripture says and have not
a single thing to offer, except "I said so!"!
> John 14:
> 19 Before long, the world will not see me
> anymore, but you will see me.
>
> Before long? What happened before long?
And here we go, with the nonsensical questions,
as is usual for you!
> 30 I will not say much more to you, for the prince
> of this world is coming. He has no hold over me,
> 31 but he comes so that the world may learn that
> I love the Father and do exactly what my Father
> has commanded me.
And once again, you quote something that has
absolutely nothing to do with the subject at hand,
proving that you're either deluded, or take drugs
for pleasure!
> Satan came had tricked them into crucifying him.
> Where did he go? To the Father.
>
> Did he say he would never come back?
>
> 28 “You heard me say, ‘I am going away
> and I am coming back to you.’
Stop thinking that time froze until you were born
and that "you" means, "you in the 21st century"!
This has nothing to do with whether or not one
believes that He was coming back! It has to do
with whether or not the world would see Him
again! You are, once again, assuming that your
doctrine that He returns as a physical human
being riding on a physical cloud cannot be wrong,
even though you have proved it to be the truth!
Rather you enter with your own preassumptions
and think that everyone is supposed to fall in line
with them and you keep forgetting the parts that
you don't like in the Bible!
The fact is, He said that the world would see Him
no more and you don't get to erase that! So any
doctrine that you wish to hold, must incorporate
that within it!
You want to erase that sentence, but stand it does!
"The world will not see me any more."
Do what you want with that. I believe what He said.
And that has nothing to do with whether or not He
said He would return and your inability to understand
how both can be true, is your problem, not mine!
But He can return and still not be seen by the world!
You are stuck in your belief that says that;
"Jesus is still human and will ride a physical cloud
in the sky, as a physical human being and so,
anyone that says anything other than that, has
to accommodate that into their belief system in
order to prove that it's not true! In other words,
I demand that you prove my belief system wrong,
by first assuming that it's right and then trying to
prove it wrong from within that assumption! So
if your attempt to prove that He won't be a human
being flying through the air on a physical cloud
does not include the assumption that He will fly
through the air as a human being on a physical
cloud, then you just don't know your Bible, pal!"
The bottom line is that you keep thinking that someone
who doesn't believe what you do about Jesus' return,
must act as if they do and prove you wrong by first
saying that you're right and that's just foolishness
and when you keep repeating that approach, you
just look more and more foolish to me! Stop assuming
and start proving!
I do not believe that Jesus was to return as a physical
human being, riding a physical cloud and so, *THAT*,
sir, is what my belief will incorporate and I am not
bound by your belief system when I respond! And
in my belief system, since He does not appear as a
physical human being on a physical cloud, yes, I can
believe that He returned *AND* that JUST AS HE SAID,
"the world does not see Him any more" once He left
by ascending into Heaven after He rose!
"Before long, the world will not see me anymore,
but you will see me."
Your problem is, that just like all Futurists, you assume
that time froze until you were born and so, whenever
you see "you" in the Bible, you also assume that Jesus
"really meant" (the favorite phrase of the Futurists!)...
"Now listen guys, I know that I am looking at you
and saying to you the word "you". But what I
*really mean* is that I am ignoring you altogether,
because I am *really* speaking to John who calls
himself 'Abrams117' in the 21st century, okay?"
--
Pastor Dave
Ever has it been, that love does not know its own depth,
until the pain of separation.
@tampabay.rr.com Pastor Dave
<John...@peoplepc.com> spake thusly:
>>> And now, what about the 70 years of Jeremiah,
>>> until Nebby couldn't have them any more?
>>> What if that had been longer?
>>>
>>> What if man inserted a "gap" between the 69th
>>> year and the last year, as the Futurists do with
>>> Daniel's 70 weeks?
>
> What if man inserted a gap between the 69th and
> 70 weeks?!
>
> Stop outright lying. Preterists insert 37 years between
> the 69th and 70th week.
>
> You pretend that Preterists do not add a gap by trying
> to use Jeremiah's 70 years as a cover. But that is what
> you do and you try to deny it!
Once again, you prove how ignorant and how desperate
you are, son!
1) Your response ignores the problem that I pointed out
with the Futurist approach.
2) Since you claim that Preterists are wrong for inserting
a gap there, will you stop believing there is a gap there?
3) Preterists do not assume there is a gap there between
the 69th and 70th week. I know that I don't! The fact
is, that all 70 of Jeremiah's years ran one after the other,
just as Daniel's "70 weeks of years" did!
4) Once again, you look like an idiot trying to defend
a gap of "almost 2,000 years and counting!" by
attacking a gap of 37 years, you idiot!
>>> Did that happen? Did he place a gap there?
>>> Or did it occur within the 70 years?
>>>
>>> Well, Daniel said that he base the "70 weeks of years"
>>> on Jeremiah's 70 years and it being just about up when
>>> he (Daniel) wrote what he did.
>
> NONSENSE! From someone who said they have read
> the Bible 15 times!
>
> Daniel knew from reading Jeremiah that their 70 years
> of captivity under Babylon was nearing its end.
That is what I said, you idiot! That was my point!
> As for the gap in Daniel everyone can see it
> without even trying! LOOK!:
No stupid, no gap is stated! You insert one with
your assumption that your doctrine cannot be wrong!
WHERE DID DANIEL, NOT YOU, STATE A GAP?!
NOT YOUR INTERPRETATION THAT THERE IS ONE!
WHERE DID DANIEL HIMSELF SAY "THERE IS A GAP"?!
And you ignore the fact that no one could know
if the prophet was truthful or not, when the time
frame that he states become meaningless, which
is what some undetermined amount of time as
a gap does to the prophecy, you idiot!
You just cannot see how ridiculous your approach is,
can you?! You cannot see what your doctrine does
to Scripture, twisting it up like a twist tie on a garbage
bag, can you?! You should be able to, since in the
garbage s where your doctrine belongs!
Now run along with your "gap" and your invented
5th kingdom, or your revived 4th kingdom that
Daniel also never mentioned and pretend it says
that too!
> Does verse 26 say that after 69 weeks the Messiah,
> Jesus Christ will be crucified? When was this?
> The year A.D. 33.
No stupid, it doesn't say that. But it wouldn't matter
if it did! What you do, is go in assuming that your
doctrine is true no matter what and that this gives
you the right to twist up time in any way you want,
to make the Bible fit your doctrine!
> Does verse 26 say the city of Jerusalem
> and the temple will be destroyed?
>
> What year did this happen? A..D 70.
>
> A gap of 37 years.
No stupid, no gap at all, stupid! Not even a 1 year gap!
The liar is YOU, when you keep PRETENDING that you
know what it is I believe!
I won't even bother telling you this time, because it
just doesn't matter! In the very next message,
you'll spit out some other nonsense and claim to know
what it is I believe, even though I have stated what
I believe many times before and it isn't what you claim!
> It is a lie.
I do not believe in any gap at all and you claiming that
I am lying when I say that, is just your attempt to try to
automatically disqualify any response I give! The truth
is, you're afraid of my disproving your doctrine, which
you know I already did, which is why you ignored
the points I made and tried to twist up my words!
Now don't bother me, unless you're going to stop
being an ass and respond to what I do say and
stop telling me that I believe things that I do not!
--
Pastor Dave
"The religion that does not begin at home, does not begin."
- Adrian Rogers
@tampabay.rr.com Pastor Dave
<John...@peoplepc.com> spake thusly:
> Preterists say Daniel based his prophecy upon Jeremiah's prophecy.
>
> Do you see their first mistake?
>
>It was not Jeremiah's prophecy. Prophecy comes from G-D. Only G-D
>Almighty declares the end form the beginning. First, they deny G-D.
Listen, stupid... You're an ass. That's why you keep refusing to
deal with the points made and keep trying to change the subject!
--
Pastor Dave
"Leftists seem to be tolerant of just about everything
except dissenting opinions." - Unknown
Doug
> On Jan 14, 8:11 pm, Abrams1117<John1...@peoplepc.com> wrote:
>> On Jan 14, 8:03 pm, Abrams1117<John1...@peoplepc.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Jan 14, 7:44 pm, Abrams1117<John1...@peoplepc.com> wrote:
>>
>>>> On Jan 14, 3:22 pm, Pastor Dave<newsgroup-mail @ tampabay.rr.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>
<snip>
>
> Read their own words on this subject:
>
>> , when if there's a gap there, then Daniel could not
>>>> possibly have known that Jeremiah's prophecy was about
>>>> to be over with, since the "gap" they place into Daniel's
>>>> prophecy is an "indefinite" one and according to them,
>>>> we cannot know how long the "gap" was to be!
>>>> If there is indeed a gap in Daniel's 70 weeks, then there
>>>> MUST be a gap in Jeremiah's 70 years, because as Daniel
>>>> said, he based his 70 weeks of years on that prophecy!
>
>> , when if there's a gap there, then Daniel could not
>>>> possibly have known that Jeremiah's prophecy was about
>>>> to be over with,
>
> Does not Scripture say Daniel prayed to G-D asking for forgiveness
> because he knew from reading Jeremiah that they 70 years were almost
> over? Now, here is the good part. Didn't Daniel do this before Gabriel
> gave him the prophecy? So, how can Preterists insist that Daniel could
> not have know the 70 years were almost finished because he based his
> prophecy on Jeremiah's even before Gabriel gave him the later
> prophecy? That is where they go wrong. They say Daniel wrote the
> prophecy. But, Scripture says G-D gave it to him.
>
>> since the "gap" they place into Daniel's
>
> Preterists place a gap. then they cry that the Futurists gap is too
> long, just as 2 Peter warns, they say it is too long! And they scoff.
> How many times have the said that it is too long?
Some say there was a gap, some do not. Most claim that the 70 weeks
were all fulfilled in the first century.
>
>>>> prophecy is an "indefinite" one and according to them,
>>>> we cannot know how long the "gap" was to be!
>
> The Preterist gap between A.D. 33 and A.D. 70 could not have been
> known either. But, they do not want you to think of this fact. Then
> they say this to we must know! - what Daniel was never even told.
It would be hypocritical to invoke a gap, and then criticize others
for doing the same thing.
>
>>>> If there is indeed a gap in Daniel's 70 weeks, then there
>>>> MUST be a gap in Jeremiah's 70 years,
>
> Did G-D say there was a gap in Jeremiah's 70 years? NO.
>
> Do Preterists say there is a gap in Daniel's 70 weeks? Yes.
>
>> because as Daniel
>>>> said, he based his 70 weeks of years on that prophecy!
>
> Daniel based nothing. Daniel was a Prophet. He reported. He did not
> write. He is a Saint. G-D will call and he will answer and have work
> to do in the coming Kingdom of G-D upon the Earth.
There is no need to invoke a gap, when different units are used in the
various sections of the 70 weeks.
The 70 weeks began with the decree to rebuild Jerusalem. This was the
decree of Cyrus, 538 BC. The first section can be taken to be 7 weeks
of leap years which had 13 months. There were 7 of these in 19 years,
so 49 leap years is 133 years. Then the second section is 62 weeks,
434 years. And 133 + 434 = 567 years, the time from 538 to 28 AD which
is early in the ministry of Jesus.
The last week, when Christ confirms his covenant with many, is partly
fulfilled in his ministry on earth among the Jews, and partly
fulfilled in the period since Jesus ascended to heaven after his
resurrection.
In heaven the time units are different, since earthly time does not
apply to spiritual things; the last half-week is symbolic of the
entire age of the church. We are still in it. There is no gap in the
70 weeks. Time has no gaps!
--
Doug
Abrams1117
wrote:
> On Fri, 14 Jan 2011 14:11:22 -0800 (PST), Abrams1117
>
> > Preterists say Daniel based his prophecy upon Jeremiah's prophecy.
>
> > Do you see their first mistake?
>
> >It was not Jeremiah's prophecy. Prophecy comes from G-D. Only G-D
> >Almighty declares the end form the beginning. First, they deny G-D.
>
> Listen, stupid... You're an ass. That's why you keep refusing to
> deal with the points made and keep trying to change the subject!
Wrong. You are ignoring everything in this tiny post and simply
promoting Satan's agenda.
Do Preterists do this?:
> > Preterists say Daniel based his prophecy upon Jeremiah's prophecy.
Are they right?
When you point this out do they admit their mistake?
>
> > Do you see their first mistake?
>
> >It was not Jeremiah's prophecy. Prophecy comes from G-D. Only G-D
> >Almighty declares the end form the beginning. First, they deny G-D.
>
No. They follow Satan and promote evil:
> Listen, stupid... You're an ass. That's why you keep refusing to
> deal with the points made and keep trying to change the subject!
And they ignore truth that opposes their doctrine.
bear
tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
>On Fri, 14 Jan 2011 14:11:22 -0800 (PST), Abrams1117
><John...@peoplepc.com> spake thusly:
>
>
>
>> Preterists say Daniel based his prophecy upon Jeremiah's prophecy.
>>
>> Do you see their first mistake?
>>
>>It was not Jeremiah's prophecy. Prophecy comes from G-D. Only G-D
>>Almighty declares the end form the beginning. First, they deny G-D.
>
>Listen, stupid... You're an ass. That's why you keep refusing to
>deal with the points made and keep trying to change the subject!
And no one could recognize such a tactic as quickly as Dave, it is one
he has employed thousands of times, such as....
"What you really asked me was if I lived back then"
In answer to my question as to when the battle of Ezek 38 & 39
happened as he claims.
Bear
bear
Almost as much of an idiot as Dave trying to explain the six events in
Dan 9:24, which were for the Jews, as being fulfilled by the first
century.
Dave and Abrams are good combatants for one another, neither of them
can answer questions about their bogus beliefs and provide scriptural
proof of their answers.
That is why neither of them, both claiming to be great Bible scholars,
will engage in a verse-by-verse discussion of scripture with me.
Bear
Abrams1117
> On Fri, 14 Jan 2011 19:38:09 -0500, Pastor Dave <newsgroup-mail @
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
> >On Fri, 14 Jan 2011 14:03:30 -0800 (PST), Abrams1117
In judgment people will be separated into two groups. If PD is in my
group, fine. If I see Bear in the same group I'm in I will go to the
other group.
Abrams1117
wrote:
> On Fri, 14 Jan 2011 13:44:37 -0800 (PST), Abrams1117
Scripture does not say this:
>that JUST AS HE SAID,
> "the world does not see Him any more" once He left
> by ascending into Heaven after He rose!
Where does it make either of these two points?
Abrams1117
wrote:
> On Fri, 14 Jan 2011 13:44:37 -0800 (PST), Abrams1117
Before long he knew he would die, be resurrecetd and ascend into
Heaven. He said the ruler this world is coming, Satan and Satan had no
power over him. But, Jesus Christ would allow Satan to fool people
into killing him.
>
> > Satan came had tricked them into crucifying him.
> > Where did he go? To the Father.
>
> > Did he say he would never come back?
>
> > 28 “You heard me say, ‘I am going away
> > and I am coming back to you.’
>
> Stop thinking that time froze until you were born
> and that "you" means, "you in the 21st century"!
See! When the Preterists cannot answer what Scripture says they revert
to human nonsense to change the subject.
>
> This has nothing to do with whether or not one
> believes that He was coming back!
No that verse does not, word for word it says: and I am coming back to
you.
> It has to do
> with whether or not the world would see Him
> again! You are, once again, assuming that your
> doctrine that He returns as a physical human
> being riding on a physical cloud cannot be wrong,
> even though you have proved it to be the truth!
TOTALLY OFF SUBJECT TRYING TO DIVERT ATTENTION TO WHAT IS PLAINLY HERE
BY ADDING IN A LOT OF OTHER SUBJECTS AND TOPICS IN AN ATTEMPT TO CLOUD
THE TRUTH: SCRIPTURE WORD FOR WORD:
AND I AM COMING BACK TO YOU.
******
Abrams1117
wrote:
> On Fri, 14 Jan 2011 14:03:30 -0800 (PST), Abrams1117
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >>> And now, what about the 70 years of Jeremiah,
> >>> until Nebby couldn't have them any more?
> >>> What if that had been longer?
IT WAS NOT LONGER. AND I SEE NO REASON WHATSOEVER TO CONNECT THE TWO
PROPHECIES.
Where do you get this idea from?
Daniel knew the the 70 years were near their end. And Gabriel gave him
a prophecy about 70 weeks. What if the 70 weeks were 71 weeks? How can
you possibly connect them? Seriously.
>
> >>> What if man inserted a "gap" between the 69th
> >>> year and the last year, as the Futurists do with
> >>> Daniel's 70 weeks?
>
> > What if man inserted a gap between the 69th and
> > 70 weeks?!
>
> > Stop outright lying. Preterists insert 37 years between
> > the 69th and 70th week.
They do not?
>
> > You pretend that Preterists do not add a gap by trying
> > to use Jeremiah's 70 years as a cover. But that is what
> > you do and you try to deny it!
I have no idea what you mean. When did I say Preterists do not ad a
gap? As far as I know, they do ad a gap between the 69th and 70th
week.
>
> Once again, you prove how ignorant and how desperate
> you are, son!
>
> 1) Your response ignores the problem that I pointed out
> with the Futurist approach.
1) Says nothing.
>
> 2) Since you claim that Preterists are wrong for inserting
> a gap there, will you stop believing there is a gap there?
2) I never said that. There you go again. You say Futurists ad to
Scripture, but, not only do you ad to Scripture you always ad to what
ppl say.
>
> 3) Preterists do not assume there is a gap there between
> the 69th and 70th week. I know that I don't! The fact
> is, that all 70 of Jeremiah's years ran one after the other,
> just as Daniel's "70 weeks of years" did!
Daniel had no 70 weeks of years. Gabriel gave him a prophecy about the
70 weeks of years. Since you do not ad a gap what do you call the 37
years between A.D. 33 AND A.D. 70?
>
> 4) Once again, you look like an idiot trying to defend
> a gap of "almost 2,000 years and counting!" by
> attacking a gap of 37 years, you idiot!
Personal attacks because you have no answers. It has nothing to do
with what I want. If the prophecy says this will happen and it has not
happened then it has not happened. Period. Wait, you said you do not
believe in a gap. Which is it?
>
> >>> Did that happen? Did he place a gap there?
> >>> Or did it occur within the 70 years?
>
> >>> Well, Daniel said that he base the "70 weeks of years"
> >>> on Jeremiah's 70 years and it being just about up when
> >>> he (Daniel) wrote what he did.
>
> > NONSENSE! From someone who said they have read
> > the Bible 15 times!
>
> > Daniel knew from reading Jeremiah that their 70 years
> > of captivity under Babylon was nearing its end.
>
> That is what I said, you idiot! That was my point!
No. You said Daniel based his prophecy on Jeremiah's and Daniel based
nothing.
>
> > As for the gap in Daniel everyone can see it
> > without even trying! LOOK!:
>
> No stupid, no gap is stated! You insert one with
> your assumption that your doctrine cannot be wrong!
>
> WHERE DID DANIEL, NOT YOU, STATE A GAP?!
>
> NOT YOUR INTERPRETATION THAT THERE IS ONE!
>
> WHERE DID DANIEL HIMSELF SAY "THERE IS A GAP"?!
between A.D. 33 and A.D. 70 there is a gap of 37 years. If you do not
believe this I would love to know how you explain it.
>
> And you ignore the fact that no one could know
> if the prophet was truthful or not, when the time
> frame that he states become meaningless, which
> is what some undetermined amount of time as
> a gap does to the prophecy, you idiot!
We know Daniel is a prophet. Jesus Christ said so. I do not understand
you.
Authority: G-D, Jesus, Angels, Prophets/Apostles.
>
> You just cannot see how ridiculous your approach is,
> can you?! You cannot see what your doctrine does
> to Scripture, twisting it up like a twist tie on a garbage
> bag, can you?! You should be able to, since in the
> garbage s where your doctrine belongs!
37 years between A.D. 33 and A.D. 70 and you say there is no gap? G-D
gave prophecies to Daniel and you say he made them up (based them on
Jeremiah). Garbage? Yes, there is plenty of garbage in this thread.
But, it is not found in the Scriptures.
bear
I did not know that you are a Preterist Abrams.
Bear
Abrams1117
You can start a new topic on this. That would be interesting. But, as
I told you about a decade ago, we can go over Scripture every day
forever and I will never tire. If you are getting tired maybe you will
be willing in 2021?
>
> > > Does verse 26 say that after 69 weeks the Messiah,
> > > Jesus Christ will be crucified? When was this?
> > > The year A.D. 33.
>
> > No stupid, it doesn't say that. But it wouldn't matter
> > if it did!
Forget the stupid remark, (that was funny - admit it) verse 26 does
NOT teach us that Jesus Christ will be crucified after the 69 weeks?
24Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy
city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to
make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting
righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint
the most Holy.
25Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the
commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the
Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street
shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but
not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall
destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with
a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in
the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to
cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it
desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be
poured upon the desolate.
Scripture with Commentary
* All dates are estimates, therefore, whenever possible, it is best to
base all dates and times on Scripture rather than to rely on other
sources.
Daniel 9:25-27:
9:25: Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the
commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem (by Artaxerxes in 444
B.C.) unto the Messiah the Prince (Jesus Christ) shall be seven weeks
(49 years), and threescore and two weeks (434 years - A total of 483
years): the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in
troublous times (under Ezra and Nehemiah).
9:26: And after threescore and two weeks (A total of 483 years) shall
Messiah (Jesus Christ) be cut off (crucified), but not for himself
(Jesus Christ died for our sins): and the people (the Romans) of the
prince that shall come shall destroy the city (Jerusalem) and the
sanctuary (the temple); and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and
unto the end of the war desolations are determined (in A.D. 70).
9:27: And he (the 11th King?) shall confirm the covenant with many for
one week (7 years): and
in the midst of the week (after 3.5 years) he (the 11th King) shall
cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the
overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until
the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the
desolate.
It would be helpful to get your opinion on this.
I will start off by saying I have -M-A-N-Y beliefs that, apparently,
no one else has.
This comes from typing out Scripture.
One of them that I have been using for years is calling the 'anti-
Christ, Beast, son of lawlessness etc.' whatever name you want to use
for him, the 11th king. I have seen people starting to use this same
term lately. I say 11th because Daniel says 10 kings (thats ten) shall
arise out of this kingdom and another (thats another meaning an
eleventh) shall arise after them. For the last couple of decades, or
so, many things like this have always puzzled me. Why no one else saw
this?
Since Daniel is the topic, for the 1,260, 1,290, 1,335 days there is
something very similar, which no one else has ever said - as far as I
know.
I have been saying for years that t-y-p-i-n-g out Scripture is like
cheating. But, no one hears. And sometimes, you can learn things that
you do not want to hear.
People think that G-D wanted to destroy all of mankind and was sorry
that HE had made man and that is fine with them. It was long ago.
People think that G-D told Moses to go away from these people, meaning
all of Israel, and HE was destroy them all and that is all fine
because they were not born. But, G-D was going to kill all mankind on
a different day, a future day and no one even hints at this. There is
a lot hidden that people do not consider because they are too busy
yelling: Idiot! Fool! Liar!
Who is the fool?
BBL I need Agua! Where is the snow?! Rio is just too hot for me - I'm
from Jersey.
I spent Christmas day running on a beach in 40 degree (Celsius)
weather - with 7 tiny dogs. I'm just not used to this.
******
bear
That is totally understandable Abrams, you could not stand the
embarrassment of me asking you more questions that you could not
answer, not to mention that I would undoubtedly remind you that you
had to bail out of a Revelation discussion because you could not prove
your views.
And being that you and Dave try to employ the same diversionary
tactics, exactly like you avoiding the issue in this post, when you
cannot answer a question, I can see where you would be much more
comfortable with him. Each of you can tell the other one how wrong
they are without having to prove any of it.
Bear
Doug
> On Jan 14, 10:38 pm, Pastor Dave<newsgroup-mail @ tampabay.rr.com>
> wrote:
>> On Fri, 14 Jan 2011 14:03:30 -0800 (PST), Abrams1117
>> <John1...@peoplepc.com> spake thusly:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>>> And now, what about the 70 years of Jeremiah,
>>>>> until Nebby couldn't have them any more?
>>>>> What if that had been longer?
>
> IT WAS NOT LONGER. AND I SEE NO REASON WHATSOEVER TO CONNECT THE TWO
> PROPHECIES.
>
> Where do you get this idea from?
>
> Daniel knew the the 70 years were near their end. And Gabriel gave him
> a prophecy about 70 weeks. What if the 70 weeks were 71 weeks? How can
> you possibly connect them? Seriously.
>
>
>
>>
>>>>> What if man inserted a "gap" between the 69th
>>>>> year and the last year, as the Futurists do with
>>>>> Daniel's 70 weeks?
>>
>>> What if man inserted a gap between the 69th and
>>> 70 weeks?!
>>
>>> Stop outright lying. Preterists insert 37 years between
>>> the 69th and 70th week.
>
> They do not?
Some say that the last "week" of the 70 weeks was simply a literal 7
years, that includes the ministry of Jesus, and the following 3.5
years, that some say may have ended at the time of the martyrdom of
Stephen.
But that position seems to require that the end of the 70 weeks passed
without any of the apostles noticing. It is not mentioned in the New
Testament at all. The claim is too far-fetched, IMO.
>
>>
>>> You pretend that Preterists do not add a gap by trying
>>> to use Jeremiah's 70 years as a cover. But that is what
>>> you do and you try to deny it!
>
> I have no idea what you mean. When did I say Preterists do not ad a
> gap? As far as I know, they do ad a gap between the 69th and 70th
> week.
It was garbled to me too.
I think Dave thinks the 70 weeks expired 3.5 years after the
crucifixion. Preterist Philip Mauro has proposed this interpretation.
He wrote, about the prophetic three and a half years:
<quote>
We cannot pass this note of number without remarking on the singular
coincidences presented by its frequent occurrence both in history and
prophecy. The drought in the days of Elijah lasted three years and six
months. The little horn which appeared on the head of the fourth beast
was to have the saints given into his hands 'until a time, and times,
and the dividing of time.' The public ministry of the Messiah was to
continue for half a week (or heptad) of years; that is, for three
years and a half. His Gospel was to be preached to the Jews after His
ascension for another half heptad before it was proclaimed to the
Gentiles. Then, in the Book of Revelation, it is said that the woman
shall be nourished in the wilderness 'for a time and times and a half
a time,' and that the holy city should be trodden under foot forty and
two months, which are three and a half years.
</quote>
Mauro, Philip. The Seventy Weeks and the Great Tribulation: A Study of
the Last Two Visions of Daniel, and of the Olivet Discourse of the
Lord Jesus Christ. 1921. p. 71.
http://www.preteristarchive.com/Books/pdf/1921 mauro_seventyweeks.pdf
>
>
>>
>> Once again, you prove how ignorant and how desperate
>> you are, son!
>>
>> 1) Your response ignores the problem that I pointed out
>> with the Futurist approach.
>
> 1) Says nothing.
>
>>
>> 2) Since you claim that Preterists are wrong for inserting
>> a gap there, will you stop believing there is a gap there?
>
> 2) I never said that. There you go again. You say Futurists ad to
> Scripture, but, not only do you ad to Scripture you always ad to what
> ppl say.
>
>>
>> 3) Preterists do not assume there is a gap there between
>> the 69th and 70th week. I know that I don't! The fact
>> is, that all 70 of Jeremiah's years ran one after the other,
>> just as Daniel's "70 weeks of years" did!
There, Dave states his view of the 70th week; in his view there was no
gap. The 70th week expired 3.5 years after the crucifixion, in his
view. This is similar to the view of Philip Mauro quoted above.
A problem with this is that it seriously distorts Daniel's prophecy,
especially the phrase "in the midst of the week he shall cause the
sacrifice and the oblation to cease," in Daniel 9:27.
Dave and Mauro have to bend like pretzels to get around that. The
temple and the earthly city were destroyed in 70 AD which puts that
event "in the midst of the week."
Dave seems reluctant to even discuss this part of his interpretation.
Let's see if he responds.
>
> Daniel had no 70 weeks of years. Gabriel gave him a prophecy about the
> 70 weeks of years. Since you do not ad a gap what do you call the 37
> years between A.D. 33 AND A.D. 70?
>
>>
>> 4) Once again, you look like an idiot trying to defend
>> a gap of "almost 2,000 years and counting!" by
>> attacking a gap of 37 years, you idiot!
>
> Personal attacks because you have no answers. It has nothing to do
> with what I want. If the prophecy says this will happen and it has not
> happened then it has not happened. Period. Wait, you said you do not
> believe in a gap. Which is it?
>
Some people attack and abuse, when they are on shaky ground.
>
>>
>>>>> Did that happen? Did he place a gap there?
>>>>> Or did it occur within the 70 years?
>>
>>>>> Well, Daniel said that he base the "70 weeks of years"
>>>>> on Jeremiah's 70 years and it being just about up when
>>>>> he (Daniel) wrote what he did.
>>
>>> NONSENSE! From someone who said they have read
>>> the Bible 15 times!
>>
>>> Daniel knew from reading Jeremiah that their 70 years
>>> of captivity under Babylon was nearing its end.
>>
>> That is what I said, you idiot! That was my point!
>
> No. You said Daniel based his prophecy on Jeremiah's and Daniel based
> nothing.
>
>>
>>> As for the gap in Daniel everyone can see it
>>> without even trying! LOOK!:
>>
>> No stupid, no gap is stated! You insert one with
>> your assumption that your doctrine cannot be wrong!
>>
>> WHERE DID DANIEL, NOT YOU, STATE A GAP?!
>>
>> NOT YOUR INTERPRETATION THAT THERE IS ONE!
>>
>> WHERE DID DANIEL HIMSELF SAY "THERE IS A GAP"?!
>
> between A.D. 33 and A.D. 70 there is a gap of 37 years. If you do not
> believe this I would love to know how you explain it.
>
To support his position as stated above, Dave has to claim that the
destruction of the temple was not "in the midst of the week" as Daniel
9:27 clearly indicates. It refers to "sacrifice" and "oblation" which
seems to refer to temple rituals. They say such things became
obsolete, when Jesus died on the cross. I think that's how they
explain "the midst of the week."
The fast is, the sacrifices and oblations ended when the temple was
destroyed. Also, if the last half-week is symbolic of the entire age
of the church, then both the crucifixion of Jesus, and the destruction
of the temple, can be understood as occurring "in the midst of the week."
>
>>
>> And you ignore the fact that no one could know
>> if the prophet was truthful or not, when the time
>> frame that he states become meaningless, which
>> is what some undetermined amount of time as
>> a gap does to the prophecy, you idiot!
>
> We know Daniel is a prophet. Jesus Christ said so. I do not understand
> you.
> Authority: G-D, Jesus, Angels, Prophets/Apostles.
>
>
>
>>
>> You just cannot see how ridiculous your approach is,
>> can you?! You cannot see what your doctrine does
>> to Scripture, twisting it up like a twist tie on a garbage
>> bag, can you?! You should be able to, since in the
>> garbage s where your doctrine belongs!
>
> 37 years between A.D. 33 and A.D. 70 and you say there is no gap? G-D
> gave prophecies to Daniel and you say he made them up (based them on
> Jeremiah). Garbage? Yes, there is plenty of garbage in this thread.
> But, it is not found in the Scriptures.
>
As I explained in another post, there is no need for a gap in the 70
weeks. The units do not have to be years, or "360-day years," etc., in
each section of the prophecy. Proposing a gap actually destroys the
prophecy.
--
Doug
@tampabay.rr.com Pastor Dave
<John...@peoplepc.com> spake thusly:
> Scripture does not say this:
>
>> that JUST AS HE SAID, "the world does not see
>> Him any more" once He left by ascending into
>> Heaven after He rose!
>
> Where does it make either of these two points?
What is it about you, that you cannot read English?!
You claim to be a writer and yet CONSTANTLY prove
that you canNOT comprehend simple English!
Is this your second language or something?!
Jesus' words were quoted right to you and yet,
you sit there and claim that He did not say them!
NOW READ IT CAREFULLY THIS TIME!!!
"Yet a little while and THE WORLD SEETH ME NO MORE;
but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also." Jn 14:19
And "in a little while", He died, rose and ascended!
At that point, the world did not see Him and it would
be ridiculous for you to claim that they did! And what
He said, was that the world would see Him NO MORE!!!
Get it now?! Now do not ask me again where it says it
and do not claim again that those words are not in there!
And once again, do NOT try to tell me this means that
I am saying that He was never to return! I did NOT
say that and I did NOT claim that the Scriptures say it!
It only means that I believe both statements that He made!
That the world would see Him no more and that He was
returning and I do not have to assume your "He physically
rides a physical cloud" doctrine as truth in order to believe
both of those things! In fact, if I were to first assume your
doctrine to be true, then Jesus' statements would not
make sense and He would be contradicting Himself,
since if He comes back as a physical human being, then
there's no way that the world would not see Him no more!
That means that your doctrine pits Jesus against Himself!
But what do you care?! Your doctrine is more important
to you than anything else, even Scripture!
--
Pastor Dave
“What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do
for others and the world, remains and is immortal.”
- Albert Pines
bear
And if the two of them would require proof from the other for their
dogmatic assertions, they both would have to kill file the other.
Bear
@tampabay.rr.com Pastor Dave
<John...@peoplepc.com> spake thusly:
>>>>> And now, what about the 70 years of Jeremiah,
>>>>> until Nebby couldn't have them any more?
>>>>> What if that had been longer?
>
> IT WAS NOT LONGER.
I didn't say that it was. And once again you hack up
what I say and delete the context!
> AND I SEE NO REASON WHATSOEVER TO CONNECT
> THE TWO PROPHECIES.
That's a lie!
> Where do you get this idea from?
I showed you three times why I mentioned them both!
Now you want to snip it out and play dumb!
>>>> What if man inserted a gap between the 69th
>>>> and 70 weeks?!
>>>
>>> Stop outright lying. Preterists insert 37 years
>>> between the 69th and 70th week.
>>
>> Thats a lie!
>
> They do not?
As I said and you are too thick to understand,
you keep telling me what Preterists believe
and you keep getting it wrong!
STOP TELLING ME WHAT I BELIEVE, WHILE
IGNORING MY STATEMENTS THAT TELL YOU
WHAT IT IS I BELIEVE, JUST BECAUSE YOU
CAN'T FIND ANYTHING TO ATTACK ME FOR
IN WHAT I ACTUALLY DO BELIEVE!
>>> You pretend that Preterists do not add a gap
>>> by trying to use Jeremiah's 70 years as a cover.
>>> But that is what you do and you try to deny it!
>
> I have no idea what you mean. When did I say
> Preterists do not add a gap? As far as I know,
> they do ad a gap between the 69th and 70th week.
You truly are an idiot and I am done with you!
You are so busy snipping my words and telling lies
about what it is that I believe, that you cannot even
keep straight any more which words I actually said
and which words you inserted!
YOU wrote that, you IDIOT!!!
Now just look at what you said below and everyone
can see that your responses are pure nonsense!
They do not even address the points I made and
then you start talking to yourself!
>> Once again, you prove how ignorant and how desperate
>> you are, son!
>>
>> 1) Your response ignores the problem that I pointed out
>> with the Futurist approach.
>
>1) Says nothing.
>
>>
>> 2) Since you claim that Preterists are wrong for inserting
>> a gap there, will you stop believing there is a gap there?
>
>2) I never said that. There you go again. You say Futurists ad to
>Scripture, but, not only do you ad to Scripture you always ad to what
>ppl say.
>
>>
>> 3) Preterists do not assume there is a gap there between
>> the 69th and 70th week. I know that I don't! The fact
>> is, that all 70 of Jeremiah's years ran one after the other,
>> just as Daniel's "70 weeks of years" did!
>
>Daniel had no 70 weeks of years. Gabriel gave him a prophecy about the
>70 weeks of years. Since you do not ad a gap what do you call the 37
>years between A.D. 33 AND A.D. 70?
>
>>
>> 4) Once again, you look like an idiot trying to defend
>> a gap of "almost 2,000 years and counting!" by
>> attacking a gap of 37 years, you idiot!
>
>Personal attacks because you have no answers. It has nothing to do
>with what I want. If the prophecy says this will happen and it has not
>happened then it has not happened. Period. Wait, you said you do not
>believe in a gap. Which is it?
You do not believe what the Bible says! You believe what
you insert! An any "gap" is inserted by you and is not stated
by Daniel! Then, once again, you demand that I prove your
claim wrong, by first assuming it's true! You do this when
you claim that I don't believe the prophecy if I don't believe
that there's a gap there, when the gap is stated by you
and not by Daniel!
I'm sorry, but I cannot take your stupidity any more
and I cannot explain things to you five times any more,
just to get nowhere and have you ridiculing what was
written and telling me how wrong I am, when what
you're actually ridiculing IS YOUR OWN WORDS that
you stated are true and which you now ridicule,
because you think that I wrote them!
Do you have any clue what that means?!
It means that:
1) You prove that it doesn't matter what I say.
You will ridicule anything I say, just because
you think it's me that said it!
2) You are making crap up on the fly, to try to
protect your doctrine, since if you weren't,
then you would recognize your own words,
instead of on a daily basis, attacking words
that you attribute to me, but that you wrote
as your opinion, which you claimed was fact!
In other words, you write something trying to
defend your doctrine, which you just made up
on he fly. Then, in your next post, you attack
those very same words because they are simply
ridiculous, but you do so not realizing that you
wrote them. You think I did!
But the bottom line here, is that you recognize
how ridiculous they are and you wrote them
as YOUR defense of YOUR doctrine! <chuckle>
3) You have proved that you haven't got a brain!
So I would suggest that you find Dorothy and
get on your way down the yellow brick road!
Now goodbye, I am done with your stupidity!
You do not bother to actually carefully read
what is being said! If you did, then you would
not end up arguing with yourself! And so there
is no point in bothering with you any more!
--
Pastor Dave
“If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe
that his vengeance need not be feared.” - Niccolo Machiavelli
@tampabay.rr.com Pastor Dave
<John...@peoplepc.com> spake thusly:
>> > Now run along with your "gap" and your invented
>> > 5th kingdom, or your revived 4th kingdom that
>> > Daniel also never mentioned and pretend it says
>> > that too!
>
>You can start a new topic on this.
I am no longer bothering with you, since all you do
is ignore what is said anyway and I can get ignored
all by myself, without you!
>> > > Does verse 26 say that after 69 weeks the Messiah,
>> > > Jesus Christ will be crucified? When was this?
>> > > The year A.D. 33.
>>
>> > No stupid, it doesn't say that. But it wouldn't matter
>> > if it did!
>
>Forget the stupid remark, (that was funny - admit it) verse 26 does
>NOT teach us that Jesus Christ will be crucified after the 69 weeks?
Listen, stupid, I gave you a scenario that explained to you
why that wouldn't matter given the subject! But you don't
care that you're changing the subject, which is why you
once again snipped my words and try to change it to
the same subject you were trying to change it to last time!
No thanks! This is not worth my time! All you will do,
is ignore what I say anyway and then tell me what
I believe, be wrong about it and then demand that
I prove you wrong, by first accepting you as right!
--
Pastor Dave
"I am not permitted to let my love be so merciful
as to tolerate and endure false doctrine. When
faith and doctrine are concerned and endangered,
neither love nor patience are in order... For
a defective life does not destroy Christendom,
but exercises it. However, defective doctrine
and false faith ruin everything. Therefore, when
these are concerned, neither toleration nor mercy
are in order, but only anger, dispute and
destruction - to be sure, only with the Word
of God as our weapon." - Martin Luther
Abrams1117
What he does not understand is that after the vile lies he posted
about me, in his completely and utterly desperate attempt to do
anything no matter how purely evil, just to escape our debate, I
almost could not resist the urge to go, find him and use his skull for
a cereal bowl.
He is evil and uses the same tactics as the aliens in the movie Mars
Attacks. We are your friends! Blast! He does everything and anything
in his power to lure you back into a debate while feigning repentance
and then he turns back to outright bold faced lies and attacks because
his god -is- evil.
Abrams1117
I know. And this makes sense at first and even second or third glance.
In fact I wish this were the case. It is very neat and clean. I have
considered this possibility, that this may be accurate.
But, and there is alway a 'but' the verses would have to jump back and
forth:
24 “Seventy ‘sevens’[c] are decreed for your people and your holy
city to finish[d] transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for
wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision
and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place.[e]
25 “Know and understand this: From the time the word goes out to
restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One,[f] the ruler,
comes, there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens.’ It will
be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble.
26 After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be put to death
and will have nothing.[g] The people of the ruler who will come will
destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood:
War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed.
27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’[h] In the
middle of the ‘seven’[i] he will put an end to sacrifice and offering.
And at the temple[j] he will set up an abomination that causes
desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.[k]”[l]
You would have Jesus Christ killed and resurrected in A.D. 33 in verse
26 and the Temple also destroyed in the very same verse, in verse 26.
This happened 33 years later in A.D. 70. Then we would jump back in
time to before the Temple was destroyed in A.D. 70 in verse 26 when we
reached verse 27. Because verse 27 would be about Jesus Christ's
ministry and Stephens murder.
Abrams1117
Here is another problem, no one has to agree with me, but, they
should ]certainly and easily understand my point:
1) > 26 After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be put to
death
> and will have nothing.
2) After - the 62 weeks Jesus Christ was to be and was murdered (and
resurrected).
3) It does not say 60 weeks, or 75 weeks or any other number, it say
62 weeks.
4) The 62 weeks AND the 7 weeks come before Jesus Christ comes: 25
“Know and understand this: From the time the word goes out to restore
and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One,[f] the ruler, comes,
there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens.’
5) The 69 weeks have ended. No more and no less.
6) After the 69 weeks Jesus Christ was killed and resurrected: > 26
After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be put to death
and will have nothing. - this means that his ministry of 3.5 years had
ALREADY ENDED before this.
7) He could not be doing any teaching after the end of the 69 weeks.
I always concentrate on the timing of events.
Last week in church I had a flash....a new idea...to understand Bible
Prophecy... and the idea is so good I am not even ready yet to try it.
It will almost be scary if it works. But, timing is one way we can
check what we believe for accuracy.
Abrams1117
This thread is becoming very confusing. I do enjoy when Ike screams at
people to defend himself when they were not even addressing him, but I
am even having a difficult time determining who said what to whom.
I will simply add that I do not believe that the 70 weeks have passed.
And Preterists, do.
BTW I always thought that the word preterist was pronounced as 'pre',
like pre-school or priest or precinct. When people are discussing this
topic online etc, they say 'preh' like prep school or pregnant or
precious.
Abrams1117
I thought that all Preterists believed the destruction of Jerusalem
was the 70th week. They always talk about this event. Or are they
trying to have their cake, give it away and eat it too??
Wow.........they want to say there is no gap so they can use this
against what he calls 'futurists', so they say the years ran
successively without any gap, then they use A.D. 70 and the Roman
destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple as a fulfillment of Daniel's
prophecies?!?!?!?!?!?? Wow..........no, really?
And they consider this honest? I find this hard to believe. Because
it is so obviously wrong. On the other hand PD kept saying that Daniel
based his prophecy on Jeremiah's and we all know that Daniel HAD
NOTHING AT ALL to do with 'writing or creating' that prophecy which
came from G-D Almighty. Still, that would be very hard to believe.
>
> > > <quote>
> > > We cannot pass this note of number without remarking on the singular
> > > coincidences presented by its frequent occurrence both in history and
> > > prophecy. The drought in the days of Elijah lasted three years and six
> > > months. The little horn which appeared on the head of the fourth beast
> > > was to have the saints given into his hands 'until a time, and times,
> > > and the dividing of time.'
This is Harold Camping territory, the numbers game and a deep pit if
you fall into it. I used to call him back in the 80's and he would
immediately start to stammer. This was too easy because I used to
listen to him and take notes and when he contradicted himself then I
would call. I think one was that he said Jesus Christ only drank grape
juice in his life and later he said he drank wine.
There is another guy on youtube who acts like he has all the answers
but every time he gets stuck he yells 'Whooooooooooooooo!!' and moves
on to the next topic and simply skips over the verses that do not fit
into his timeline of events.
I like to study these teachers and find out how they see things.
Here is a page about what you just mentioned:
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/gary.h.turner/XmasSept/xmas10.htm
Here is Luke 4:
Luke 4
1And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was
led by the Spirit into the wilderness,
2Being forty days tempted of the devil. And in those days he did eat
nothing: and when they were ended, he afterward hungered.
3And the devil said unto him, If thou be the Son of G-D, command this
stone that it be made bread.
4And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not
live by bread alone, but by every word of G-D.
5And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him
all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.
6And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and
the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I
will I give it.
7If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine.
8And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for
it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy G-D, and him only shalt
thou serve.
9And he brought him to Jerusalem, and set him on a pinnacle of the
temple, and said unto him, If thou be the Son of G-D, cast thyself
down from hence:
10For it is written, He shall give his angels charge over thee, to
keep thee:
11And in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou
dash thy foot against a stone.
12And Jesus answering said unto him, It is said, Thou shalt not tempt
the Lord thy G-D.
13And when the devil had ended all the temptation, he departed from
him for a season.
14And Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit into Galilee: and
there went out a fame of him through all the region round about.
15And he taught in their synagogues, being glorified of all.
16And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his
custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood
up for to read.
17And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias.
And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was
written,
18The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to
preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the
brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering
of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
19To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
20And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and
sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were
fastened on him.
21And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled
in your ears.
22And all bare him witness, and wondered at the gracious words which
proceeded out of his mouth. And they said, Is not this Joseph's son?
23And he said unto them, Ye will surely say unto me this proverb,
Physician, heal thyself: whatsoever we have heard done in Capernaum,
do also here in thy country.
24And he said, Verily I say unto you, No prophet is accepted in his
own country.
25But I tell you of a truth, many widows were in Israel in the days
of Elias, when the heaven was shut up three years and six months, when
great famine was throughout all the land;
26But unto none of them was Elias sent, save unto Sarepta, a city of
Sidon, unto a woman that was a widow.
27And many lepers were in Israel in the time of Eliseus the prophet;
and none of them was cleansed, saving Naaman the Syrian.
28And all they in the synagogue, when they heard these things, were
filled with wrath,
29And rose up, and thrust him out of the city, and led him unto the
brow of the hill whereon their city was built, that they might cast
him down headlong.
30But he passing through the midst of them went his way,
31And came down to Capernaum, a city of Galilee, and taught them on
the sabbath days.
32And they were astonished at his doctrine: for his word was with
power.
33And in the synagogue there was a man, which had a spirit of an
unclean devil, and cried out with a loud voice,
34Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of
Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art; the
Holy One of G-D.
35And Jesus rebuked him, saying, Hold thy peace, and come out of him.
And when the devil had thrown him in the midst, he came out of him,
and hurt him not.
36And they were all amazed, and spake among themselves, saying, What
a word is this! for with authority and power he commandeth the unclean
spirits, and they come out.
37And the fame of him went out into every place of the country round
about.
38And he arose out of the synagogue, and entered into Simon's house.
And Simon's wife's mother was taken with a great fever; and they
besought him for her.
39And he stood over her, and rebuked the fever; and it left her: and
immediately she arose and ministered unto them.
40Now when the sun was setting, all they that had any sick with
divers diseases brought them unto him; and he laid his hands on every
one of them, and healed them.
41And devils also came out of many, crying out, and saying, Thou art
Christ the Son of G-D. And he rebuking them suffered them not to
speak: for they knew that he was Christ.
42And when it was day, he departed and went into a desert place: and
the people sought him, and came unto him, and stayed him, that he
should not depart from them.
43And he said unto them, I must preach the kingdom of G-D to other
cities also: for therefore am I sent.
44And he preached in the synagogues of Galilee.
He did not say his ministry would be for 3.5 years and we do not know
exactly how long it was. He compared it to the drought in Elijah's day
we do not know the exact numbers of days in either age. It is
In this chapter I am more interested in the description of events
when he came to teach and when he comes to rule - found in verses
16-19.
Are these simply coincidences?
The Babylonians destroyed the Temple in the year:
1) 586
In the month of:
2) AV
On the:
3) 9th
How many years later did the Jews rebuild the Temple?
4) 70
How many years later did the Romans destroyed the Temple?
1) 586
What month was it destroyed?
2) AV
On what day?
3) 9th
What year was it?
4) 70
Were these things below done by G-D?:
President Lincoln, elected in 1860, was warned by his staffer named
Kennedy not to go to the theater, he sat next to his wife and was shot
in the head (Ford's Theater), his killer (born 1839) left the theater
and hid in a warehouse and the next President was named Johnson born
1808. The assassin was killed before his trial.
President Kennedy, elected in 1960, was warned by his staffer named
Lincoln not to go to the Dallas, he sat next to his wife and was shot
in the head (Ford car), his killer (born 1939) left the warehouse and
hid in a theater and the next President was named Johnson born 1908.
The assassin was killed before his trial
We can find mysteries wherever we look. We have to use Scripture to
see what Scripture really says.
We can make many guesses and be right. But it is the ones we get wrong
that means we are simply guessing.
*******
Doug
The middle section of the 70 weeks is 62 sevens, and they are
sabbatical cycles of 7 years in my interpretation; the Jews observed a
pattern of these cycles and in the seventh year the land was supposed
to rest. The year that John began his ministry may have been one of
the sabbatical years when people would presumably have more time to go
to the wilderness to hear John preach. This has been proposed by Ben
Zion Wacholder, who is a well known Hebrew scholar, retired professor
of Talmud and Rabbinics at Hebrew Union College. He claimed the year
27-28 AD was such a sabbatical year.
The year 28 AD seems to be the year that Jesus began his ministry,
based on his age, said to be about 30 in Luke, date of birth, probably
about 2 BC, and the date given in Luke for the start of the ministry
of John, the 15th year of Tiberias.
The ministry of Jesus was the beginning of the 70th week; anything in
that week is "after" the 69th week. So the crucifixion, and the
destruction of the temple, are all after the 69th week.
The 70th week is generally considered in two sections, the last one
being a mystical three and a half years, the "time, times and a half"
that extends to the end of the age, when all things are fulfilled,
Daniel 12:7.
There is a change when Jesus ascended to heaven. At that point, the
holy city, Jerusalem is raised up as Isaiah said, Isa. 2:1-3. The
kingdom is in heaven, and prophetic time is not reckoned in terms of
earth days, and earth months, and earth years when Jesus was raised up
to heaven. Thus the last three and a half years is symbolic of the
entire age of the church.
Not only time, but the dimensions of the holy city are given in
symbolic terms as well; numbers such as 12,000 furlongs, 144 cubits
according to the measure of an angel, etc., are symbolic. Otherwise,
why would John have specified an "angelic" unit of measurement?
The foundations of the wall of the city are said to be 12 in number,
which agrees with the number of apostles; however each would have to
be about 500 miles long, since the perimeter is 4 x 12,000 furlongs!
So the city is full of symbolism.
Time, dimensions, and other things about the city are symbolic; Daniel
wrote that there would be an abomination causing desolation "upon a
wing of the temple" according to some translations (NASB I think). The
wing suggests it may be associated with false prophets, and flawed
interpretations of prophecy.
In Revelation 12:14 the woman flees to the wilderness, which
represents the church, who escapes from the corruption of the world.
She is given two wings of an eagle. The wings of an eagle represent an
understanding of prophecy; an eagle is mentioned in chapter 8, who
prophesies "woe."
>>
>> 7) He could not be doing any teaching after the end of the 69 weeks.
The entire 70th week is when Christ confirms his covenant with many,
as I understand it. This includes the entire age of the church.
--
Doug
Abrams1117
I didn't say you were lying. Anyway, the more words and topics the
more confused the discussion becomes.
You do not believe in any gap. Then I would like to know what you do
believe. Because I do not see any logical way possible to eliminate a
gap - none.
>
> Now don't bother me, unless you're going to stop
> being an ass and respond to what I do say and
> stop telling me that I believe things that I do not!
The easiest thing to do is number points/comments and or questions.
Then we can get by some of the nonsense.
No gap.......I do not see that, at all.
How is it you always talk about A.D. 70 if you do not see it in
Daniel's prophecy?
Or, do you see it in the words of Jesus Christ and not in Daniel
because this supports your doctrine?
Abrams1117
wrote:
> On Fri, 14 Jan 2011 14:11:22 -0800 (PST), Abrams1117
>
> > Preterists say Daniel based his prophecy upon Jeremiah's prophecy.
>
> > Do you see their first mistake?
>
> >It was not Jeremiah's prophecy. Prophecy comes from G-D. Only G-D
> >Almighty declares the end form the beginning. First, they deny G-D.
>
> Listen, stupid... You're an ass. That's why you keep refusing to
> deal with the points made and keep trying to change the subject!
Preterists think it fine to say Daniel wrote the prophecy. I think
that is the height of blasphemy. After you point this out to one he
simply ignores that and calls you names. Isn't he condemning himself?
Abrams1117
I thought he saw a gap and do not know how he can sue A.D. 70 and the
destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple and then say there is no gap.
There was 37 years between the death, resurrection and ascension of
Jesus Christ and the destruction of Jerusalem.
No gap, but the last half of the week is over 2,000 years long?
Seriously, thats even a bigger stretch than preterism.
>
> --
> Doug
>
> http://www.sentex.net/~tcc/
Abrams1117
> On Fri, 14 Jan 2011 19:40:35 -0500, Pastor Dave <newsgroup-mail @
>
> tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
> >On Fri, 14 Jan 2011 14:11:22 -0800 (PST), Abrams1117
>
> >> Preterists say Daniel based his prophecy upon Jeremiah's prophecy.
>
> >> Do you see their first mistake?
>
> >>It was not Jeremiah's prophecy. Prophecy comes from G-D. Only G-D
> >>Almighty declares the end form the beginning. First, they deny G-D.
>
> >Listen, stupid... You're an ass. That's why you keep refusing to
> >deal with the points made and keep trying to change the subject!
>
> And no one could recognize such a tactic as quickly as Dave, it is one
> he has employed thousands of times, such as....
>
> "What you really asked me was if I lived back then"
>
> In answer to my question as to when the battle of Ezek 38 & 39
> happened as he claims.
>
> Bear
*******
Ignore Satan's minions, only a devil would ignore the fact of the
matter which is that Daniel did not create the prophecy - it came from
G-D. They deny G-D because thats what their master requires of them.
Abrams1117
wrote:
> On Sat, 15 Jan 2011 05:11:10 -0800 (PST), Abrams1117
>
> > Scripture does not say this:
>
> >> that JUST AS HE SAID, "the world does not see
> >> Him any more" once He left by ascending into
> >> Heaven after He rose!
>
> > Where does it make either of these two points?
>
> What is it about you, that you cannot read English?!
>
> You claim to be a writer and yet CONSTANTLY prove
> that you canNOT comprehend simple English!
It does not say he will never come back. In fact in the same chapter
he says he will come back. Word for word changing nothing. And what
about the many, many Scriptures which describe Jesus Christ returning
that you ignored?
>
> Is this your second language or something?!
>
> Jesus' words were quoted right to you and yet,
> you sit there and claim that He did not say them!
>
> NOW READ IT CAREFULLY THIS TIME!!!
>
> "Yet a little while and THE WORLD SEETH ME NO MORE;
> but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also." Jn 14:19
VERY-SAME-CHAPTER:
28 “You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’
You lose.
*******
Abrams1117
wrote:
> On Sat, 15 Jan 2011 06:36:01 -0800 (PST), Abrams1117
>
> >> > Now run along with your "gap" and your invented
> >> > 5th kingdom, or your revived 4th kingdom that
> >> > Daniel also never mentioned and pretend it says
> >> > that too!
>
> >You can start a new topic on this.
>
> I am no longer bothering with you, since all you do
> is ignore what is said anyway and I can get ignored
> all by myself, without you!
>
> >> > > Does verse 26 say that after 69 weeks the Messiah,
> >> > > Jesus Christ will be crucified? When was this?
> >> > > The year A.D. 33.
>
> >> > No stupid, it doesn't say that. But it wouldn't matter
> >> > if it did!
>
> >Forget the stupid remark, (that was funny - admit it) verse 26 does
> >NOT teach us that Jesus Christ will be crucified after the 69 weeks?
>
> Listen, stupid, I gave you a scenario that explained to you
> why that wouldn't matter given the subject! But you don't
> care that you're changing the subject, which is why you
> once again snipped my words and try to change it to
> the same subject you were trying to change it to last time!
QUICK NOTE: Snip? I nvr snip anything. You're saying ppl snip and do
not know it - because they have not expanded each part of each post.
Wow....I have accused you of this a million times. I will have to try
and remember this.
Thx.
Doug
No, some preterists, like lawyer Philip Mauro, say the great prophecy
70 weeks expired without fanfare, without being so much as noticed by
the apostles of the Lord, in about 34 AD. Only *they* have noticed it,
now, 19 centuries after the event!
Others associate the end of the 70 weeks with the events of 70 AD.
Philip S. Desprez (1812-1879) was an Anglican clergyman who became a
preterist. He applied the 1,260 days and the 42 months of Revelation
11, 12 and 13 to the period of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.
He wrote:
<quote>
The next point of marked coincidence between this prophecy of Daniel
and the Apocalypse is, this desolation was to continue for a specific
time. This time is accurately marked by each.
According to Daniel, the period is "a time, times, and a half," or "a
thousand two hundred and ninety days." According to the Apocalypse,
the period is "forty and two months," "a thousand two hundred and
threescore days." I consider these periods to be identical, and the
1290 days of Jewish or Babylonian reckoning to be equivalent to the
1260 days--the forty-two months--of Roman reckoning mentioned in the
Apocalypse.
It is very remarkable, that the periods of time observed in the
Apocalypse are the same:--
The Gentiles are to tread the holy city under foot a time, times, and
a half--1260 days, 42 months, 3 1/2 years.
The witnesses are to prophesy a time, times, and a half--1260 days, 42
months, 3 1/2 years.
The woman is to be fed in the wilderness a time, times, and a
half--1260 days, 42 months, 3 1/2 years.
She is to be nourished for a time, times, and a half--1260 days, 42
months, 3 1/2 years.
Power is given to the Beast (Rome) to continue a time, times, and a
half-- 1260 days, 42 months, 3 1/2 years.
There can be little doubt but that these periods all relate to the
same events, and that they are identical with the periods of time
recorded in Daniel, xii. It is true there is a difference of thirty
days between the prophecy of Daniel and the Apocalyptic statement; but
this may be owing to the different methods of computing time, Daniel
probably using the Babylonian, and St. John the Roman, method.
Now, upon a reference to history, it is found that this was the
precise period during which the invasion of Judaea lasted. It is known
that Cestius laid siege to Jerusalem in the month of October, A.D. 66;
he was defeated, and "this defeat happened on the eighth day of the
month Dius (Marchesvan), in the twelfth year of the reign of Nero." In
the spring of the following year Vespasian is sent by Nero. On the
eighth day of the month Gorpheius (Elul), A.D. 70 (in the middle of
August, A.D. 70), Jerusalem is taken. From the spring of A.D. 67, to
August, A.D. 70, is somewhere near the time, times, and a half,--the
forty-two months, the 1260 days, during which the Gentiles tread down
the holy city.
Another circumstance, which serves to establish the length of the
Jewish war, is to be found in the history of one of Christ's
witnesses, who predicted the woes coming upon Jerusalem. We read of
him, that "four years before the war began, at a time when the city
was in great peace and prosperity, one Jesus, the son of Ananus, began
on a sudden to cry aloud, 'A voice from the east, a voice from the
west, a voice from the four winds, a voice against Jerusalem and the
holy house, a voice against the bridegrooms and the brides, and a
voice against this whole people.' This cry of his he continued for
seven years and five months, until the very time when he saw his
presage fulfilled in earnest in our siege."
</quote>
Desprez, Philip Charles Soulbien. The Apocalypse ful lled: in the
consummation of the mosaic economy and the coming of the son of man:
an answer to the Apocalyptic sketches and The end by Dr. Cumming.
Longman, Green, Longman, and Roberts, 1861.
http://books.google.com/books?id=Il0TAAAAYAAJ
Desprez later abandoned the ultra-preterist views he had expressed in
The Apocalypse ful lled.
>
> Wow.........they want to say there is no gap so they can use this
> against what he calls 'futurists', so they say the years ran
> successively without any gap, then they use A.D. 70 and the Roman
> destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple as a fulfillment of Daniel's
> prophecies?!?!?!?!?!?? Wow..........no, really?
Evidently Dave says there was no gap.
> And they consider this honest? I find this hard to believe. Because
> it is so obviously wrong. On the other hand PD kept saying that Daniel
> based his prophecy on Jeremiah's and we all know that Daniel HAD
> NOTHING AT ALL to do with 'writing or creating' that prophecy which
> came from G-D Almighty. Still, that would be very hard to believe.
There are several competing preterist interpretations of the 70 weeks
prophecy of Daniel. Dave will likely tell you only about his own.
Philip Mauro applied the 1,290 days and 1,335 days of Daniel 12:11-12
to the period of the siege of Jerusalem by the Roman armies leading to
the destruction of the city in 70 AD. He dismissed the dispensational
theory of a gap between the sections of the 70 weeks. He wrote:
<quote>
In the foregoing pages we have sought to give the true interpretation
of the last four chapters of Daniel. In so doing we have endeavored to
show that "the latter days," wherein the last of those prophecies was
expressly to be fulfilled, was that final period of Jewish history
which stretched from the return from Babylon in the days of Cyrus, to
the destruction of Jerusalem by Titus; and also to show that "the time
of the end" spoken of in Daniel 12:4 was the very last stage of that
period, including the days of Christ, and the time of gospel preaching
which followed.
But the subject should not be left without some reference to the
question whether these prophecies have any application at all to the
present dispensation. We are deeply convinced that there is no warrant
whatever for breaking off the last parts of these prophecies, and
carrying the detached portions across the intervening centuries to the
end of this gospel dispensation. This freakish system of
interpretation has nothing in the Scripture to support it, so far as
we can discover. But is it not a possibility nevertheless that the
prophecies, or parts of them at least, may have a secondary and final
fulfillment in the last days of our era?
This question cannot be dismissed as unworthy of serious
consideration, seeing that many expositors of the highest ability have
elaborated systems of interpretation wherein the time measures of
Daniel are taken, on the scale of a day to a year, to measure from
various epochs in the past to various critical events in this
dispensation. Especially have those time measures been used to locate
the second coming of Christ, and other events which pertain to the
time of the end of this present age. Sometimes the periods are
measured on the scale of a lunar year, sometimes on the scale of a
solar year, sometimes on the scale of a calendar year (counting 360
days to a year). Mr. H. Grattan Guinness, in his well known books, The
Approaching End of the Age, and Light for the Last Days, uses all
three scales, and he seems to obtain remarkable results whichever
scale he employs. Thus these figures appear to give, in many cases,
the measures of time between important historical events of old, and
corresponding events in our own era. All this suggests the possibility
that the figures given in the 12th chapter of Daniel may, when made to
mean years instead of days, be found to measure accurately from some
selected starting point to say the rise (or the fall) of the Papacy as
a temporal power, or of Mohammedanism, or to the French Revolution, or
to the outbreak of the World War, or to the taking of Jerusalem from
the Turks. Such studies are not without interest and value; but they
do not, in our opinion, supply us with a basis upon which the date of
any future event can be predicted; and most emphatically do we declare
it as our judgment, that neither these figures nor any others have
been given as a means whereby the date of the coming again of the Lord
Jesus Christ can be calculated. To that judgment we are driven by His
own definite statements in His Mount Olivet prophecy, which we are now
about to examine. From those statements it will be clearly seen that,
while on the one hand the Lord warned His disciples most explicitly
concerning the exterminating judgments which were to fall upon the
people, the city and the temple in that generation, and while He gave
them an unmistakable sign whereby they might be warned of the approach
thereof in time to escape, He took the greatest pains on the other
hand to impress upon them that His own coming again would be at an
unexpected season, and without any premonitory signs whatever.
Furthermore, it is obvious that, in order to measure long time
intervals from a starting point in Old Testament days, it is necessary
to have a correct chronology; and the practice of all who have made
calculations of the sort referred to has been to assume some one or
other of the existing chronological systems based upon the canon of
Ptolemy, which Anstey has shown to be erroneous, or at least
untrustworthy. And in this connection we would say that our confidence
in all calculations of the sort referred to is much shaken by the fact
that each scheme of interpretation yields equally remarkable results
whether one system of chronology be chosen or another, and whether the
"year" be taken as containing 365 days, or 360, or 354 (the last being
the length of the lunar year). Now, inasmuch as it is manifestly
impossible that all the different chronologies based on Ptolemy's
canon should be equally correct, or that it is a matter of
indifference whether the year, which is the time unit in all these
calculations, be of one length, or another, we are unable to find in
such systems of interpretation any basis solid enough to support
settled conclusions. Therefore, as to the time of any of the as yet
unfulfilled prophecies, we have no means for fixing, or even closely
approximating, the year in which it will occur; and this statement
applies in a special way to the coming again of the Lord Jesus Christ.
And finally we would say, after much consideration of the matter, and
with the desire (which must be common to all) that we might have a
divinely revealed measuring line and a starting point whereby future
events could be accurately located on the chart of the years, yet we
cannot see sufficient warrant for assuming that the "days" mentioned
in these prophecies are really "years." We shall not take the time to
examine the reasons usually given in support of that assumption, it
being enough to say that we know of no proof that the word "day," in
any time measure given in the Bible, means "year;" nor can we conceive
of any reason why, if a year were meant, the word "day" should be used
instead.
</quote>
Mauro, Philip. The Seventy Weeks and the Great Tribulation: A Study of
the Last Two Visions of Daniel, and of the Olivet Discourse of the
Lord Jesus Christ. 1921. pp. 73-74.
http://www.preteristarchive.com/Books/pdf/1921_mauro_seventyweeks.pdf
--
Doug
Ike E 1/1/11
news:2c261992-913f-4b78...@n11g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...
> In judgment people will be separated into two groups. If PD is in my
> group, fine. If I see Bear in the same group I'm in I will go to the
> other group.
Ah, no, ALL THREE of you will be in the same group, since ALL THREE of your
cults have devised DIFFERENT WAYS to cut off the IMPORTANT parts of prophecy
with your lies and truncations.
The purpose of prophecy: To exhort the saints to endure throughout the
entire End of the Age, ALL THRREE PARTS.
The purpose of you three stooges: AVOID THE HARD PARTS (or even DENY that
there will BE any "hard parts").
As I said before, YOU are "they."
Ike
--
********
Which of the following is the correct way to read Bible prophecy?
A. Immediacy
B. Historicism
C. Dispensationalism
D. Preterism (Full or Partial)
E. Idealism
F. Realized/Sapiential Eschatology
G. All of the above
H. None of the above
Based on an examination of how (not just what) Jesus and the prophets
prophesied, "The Triune Hypothesis" is a guide to reading the Bible
prophetically in all three dimensions of interpretation-the horizontal axis
in time (what was, is, and/or is to come), the perpendicular axis in
application (literal, figurative, and/or spiritual), and the vertical axis
in context (thesis, generality, and/or antithesis).
Topics of discussion include the resurrections, the triune "Last Days," the
Pentecosts, the one-baptism-in-three-parts, the triple application of the
Elijah prophecies, the Temples in Jerusalem, the Abominations of Desolation,
the Triune Israel, the devolution of prophecy, and much more.
Kindle Version:
Print Version:
Facebook: (discussions enabled)
http://www.facebook.com/home.php#!/pages/The-Triune-Hypothesis/102657386473773
Web: (filtered blog comments enabled)
http://thetriunist.weebly.com/index.html
Abrams1117
The middle section of the 70 weeks is 62 sevens - ok, I am lost.
> the Jews observed a
> pattern of these cycles and in the seventh year the land was supposed
> to rest. The year that John began his ministry may have been one of
> the sabbatical years when people would presumably have more time to go
> to the wilderness to hear John preach. This has been proposed by Ben
> Zion Wacholder, who is a well known Hebrew scholar, retired professor
> of Talmud and Rabbinics at Hebrew Union College. He claimed the year
> 27-28 AD was such a sabbatical year.
>
> The year 28 AD seems to be the year that Jesus began his ministry,
> based on his age, said to be about 30 in Luke, date of birth, probably
> about 2 BC, and the date given in Luke for the start of the ministry
> of John, the 15th year of Tiberias.
The 15th Year of Tiberius Caesar
How do we know the Romans crucified (cut off) Jesus Christ in the year
A.D. 33?
In Easton’s Bible Dictionary it says: Definition of the word Tiberius
Caesar: I.e., as known in Roman history, Tiberius Claudius Nero, only
mentioned in Luke 3:1. He was the stepson of Augustus, whom he
succeeded on the throne, A.D. 14.
* Since Tiberius became Emperor in A.D. 14 the 15th year of his reign
was A.D. 29.
Luke 3:1A:
Now in the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar. . .
>
> The ministry of Jesus was the beginning of the 70th week; anything in
> that week is "after" the 69th week. So the crucifixion, and the
> destruction of the temple, are all after the 69th week.
Exactly. Anything that happens in the prophecies after the 69th week
is in the 70th week.
And Scripture teaches us that Jesus Christ was crucified before the
70th week:
After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be put to death
and will have nothing.
>
> The 70th week is generally considered in two sections, the last one
> being a mystical three and a half years, the "time, times and a half"
> that extends to the end of the age, when all things are fulfilled,
> Daniel 12:7.
Daniel 12:
7 The man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river,
lifted his right hand and his left hand toward heaven, and I heard him
swear by him who lives forever, saying, “It will be for a time, times
and half a time.[b] When the power of the holy people has been finally
broken, all these things will be completed.”
11 “From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the
abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290
days. 12 Blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the end of the
1,335 days.
13 “As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at
the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted
inheritance.”
How can you extend it to the end of the age?
It makes more sense to simply see that Jesus Christ as was written was
cut of before the 70th week and the Temple was not destroyed until 37
years later 'possibly' fulfilling the rest of the prophecies - thus
you have to add a gap. Based upon the verses you mention here that
these vents happen at the time of the end it is more logical to say a
future Temple will be created just as there have been three Temples
built in the past and the Bible describes more future Temples.
Have to run.
******
Doug
Ouch!
The last half-week applies not to the earthly Jerusalem, as the
previous part of the prophecy does, but to the heavenly Jerusalem, the
Jerusalem that was raised up above the hills when Jesus ascended to
heaven and when this fact is considered, it makes sense that the last
half week would be symbolic of the entire age of the church.
Venerable Bede (672-735) was a monk at the Northumbrian monastery of
Saint Peter at Monkwearmouth, in Sunderland, England. He said of the
on the 1,260 days of Revelation 12:6, "In this number of days, which
makes three years and a half, he comprehends all the times of
Christianity, because Christ, Whose body the Church is, preached the
same length of time in the flesh."
John Bale (1495-1563) was the first to write a commentary on
Revelation in English; in his comments on Revelation 12:6 he
identified the 1,260 days with "the time of the Gospel preaching from
Christ's ascension to the end of the world." He wrote:
"The numbered days here are none other but the afore written time of
the two witnesses, the time of Elias' preaching, the time of John's
preaching, the time of Christ's preaching, or the time of the Gospel
preaching from Christ's ascension to the end of the world. That is the
very time of the feeding of his church. And not open is this feeding
here, but secret in the wilderness among a sort unknown to the world,
having the poverty of the spirit without having anointing, or
hypocrites' apparel. And not only hath the Lord thus nourished his
people in this spiritual respect, but also in body. When they have
been grievously handled, spoiled of their goods imprisoned, and
exiled, graciously has he relieved them, and provided for them both
solace and comfort at the hands of them whom they never saw before. So
that the just has not felt himself forsaken, nor his children seeking
bread."
Mathias Rissi (1920-2006) wrote:
<quote>
Revelation 12--14 begins with the historical Christ and ends with the
Parousia and obviously gives an explanation for the entire
intermediary time. That gives now the possibility of confirming the
interpretation of the Danielic number 3 1/2 (and its variations) in
the Revelation. In Daniel it designates the duration of the last
stretch of time directly prior to the great final judgment and the
appearing of the Son of Man (Dan. 7:13, 26). In the Revelation it is
no longer meant concretely, as it is in Daniel, while the great
distinction from Daniel remains in the new designation of the point of
departure of the last time before the End. Daniel, and with it the
Jewish apocalyptists, takes the actual point of time of the writing of
the book as the point of departure of the last time because he is
convinced that he will witness God's world plan in his own decisive
hour. However, the refusal of these prophecies to be more specific is
always obvious, so that the "later apocalyptic becomes more cautious
in its numbers in comparison with Daniel." The new thing found in the
Revelation (and in the whole of primitive Christianity) is that it
recognizes positively the precise point of the beginning of the final
time, this on the basis of the most infallible divine attestation
through the appearance of Jesus Christ on earth in the past (12:6).
The Danielic number thus serves in the Revelation as a designation of
the intermediary time. This last time is the time of the gyne (12:6,
14) and the two witnesses (11:3), although it is also the time of the
beast and the ethne who believe in him (11:2; 13:5). In these passages
it is always the same End time between the two Parousias that is meant.
In 11:2 is found the point of departure for the 3 1/2 times, the End
time, the patein of Jerusalem, the desecration by the nations. The
inner ground of the profanation is, according to Revelation 11:8, the
crucifixion of Jesus.
Thus both of these starting points in chapters 11 and 12 stand in the
innermost connection, they clearly synchronize; the End time begins
with the Christ event. We shall see later that 11:1-13 concludes the
intermediary time with a vision of the End. Thus even this view of the
temple and the witnesses in chapter 11 includes an overview of the
whole time interval.
</quote>
--
Doug
Doug
14 AD: Tiberius year 1
15 AD: Tiberius year 2
16 AD: Tiberius year 3
17 AD: Tiberius year 4
18 AD: Tiberius year 5
19 AD: Tiberius year 6
20 AD: Tiberius year 7
21 AD: Tiberius year 8
22 AD: Tiberius year 9
23 AD: Tiberius year 10
24 AD: Tiberius year 11
25 AD: Tiberius year 12
26 AD: Tiberius year 13
27 AD: Tiberius year 14
28 AD: Tiberius year 15
How do you get A.D. 29?
>
>>
>> The ministry of Jesus was the beginning of the 70th week; anything in
>> that week is "after" the 69th week. So the crucifixion, and the
>> destruction of the temple, are all after the 69th week.
>
> Exactly. Anything that happens in the prophecies after the 69th week
> is in the 70th week.
>
> And Scripture teaches us that Jesus Christ was crucified before the
> 70th week:
No, I don't think it does. Perhaps you are assuming there was a gap?
The 70th week follows the 69th week, and events "after" the 69th week
are "in" the 70th.
Suppose Bob had a birthday last November, and was 69 years old. Events
"after" his birthday, such as a Christmas party, were in his 70th year.
Abrams1117
wrote:
> "Abrams1117" <John1...@peoplepc.com> wrote in message
>
> news:2c261992-913f-4b78...@n11g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...
>
> > In judgment people will be separated into two groups. If PD is in my
> > group, fine. If I see Bear in the same group I'm in I will go to the
> > other group.
>
> Ah, no, ALL THREE of you will be in the same group, since ALL THREE of your
> cults have devised DIFFERENT WAYS to cut off the IMPORTANT parts of prophecy
> with your lies and truncations.
>
> The purpose of prophecy: To exhort the saints to endure throughout the
> entire End of the Age, ALL THRREE PARTS.
>
> The purpose of you three stooges: AVOID THE HARD PARTS (or even DENY that
> there will BE any "hard parts").
>
> As I said before, YOU are "they."
For the 5th time, where is your timeline for the seals, trumpets and
vials?
Let me start it off for you and you can just fill in the blanks. There
are 21 events.
1)
2)
3)
4)
5)
6)
7)
8)
9)
10)
11)
12)
13)
14)
15)
16)
17)
18)
19)
20)
21)
If you like i can fill them in and then you can just re-arrange the
order to fit your timeline.
((Holding my breath))
> Ike
> --
> ********
>
> Which of the following is the correct way to read Bible prophecy?
>
> A. Immediacy
> B. Historicism
> C. Dispensationalism
> D. Preterism (Full or Partial)
> E. Idealism
> F. Realized/Sapiential Eschatology
> G. All of the above
> H. None of the above
>
> Based on an examination of how (not just what) Jesus and the prophets
> prophesied, "The Triune Hypothesis" is a guide to reading the Bible
> prophetically in all three dimensions of interpretation-the horizontal axis
> in time (what was, is, and/or is to come), the perpendicular axis in
> application (literal, figurative, and/or spiritual), and the vertical axis
> in context (thesis, generality, and/or antithesis).
>
> Topics of discussion include the resurrections, the triune "Last Days," the
> Pentecosts, the one-baptism-in-three-parts, the triple application of the
> Elijah prophecies, the Temples in Jerusalem, the Abominations of Desolation,
> the Triune Israel, the devolution of prophecy, and much more.
>
> Kindle Version:
>
> http://www.amazon.com/The-Triune-Hypothesis-ebook/dp/B0049P231G/ref=s...
>
> Print Version:
>
> http://www.amazon.com/Triune-Hypothesis-Mr-Eickleberry-Jr/dp/14563220...
>
> Facebook: (discussions enabled)
>
> http://www.facebook.com/home.php#!/pages/The-Triune-Hypothesis/102657...
Abrams1117
LOL
I only meant that in reference to the 'gap'. Not to preterism itself.
>
> The last half-week applies not to the earthly Jerusalem, as the
> previous part of the prophecy does, but to the heavenly Jerusalem, the
> Jerusalem that was raised up above the hills when Jesus ascended to
> heaven and when this fact is considered, it makes sense that the last
> half week would be symbolic of the entire age of the church.
Well, that time-gap is as long as the one that futurists use.
Yeah, that does not help. Because someone says the 1,260 days equals
the time from Christ's ascension to the end of the world does not make
it so. In fact you would need tons of proof to convince someone of
that.
Abrams1117
> In Easton�s Bible Dictionary it says: Definition of the word Tiberius
> Caesar: I.e., as known in Roman history, Tiberius Claudius Nero, only
> mentioned in Luke 3:1. He was the stepson of Augustus, whom he
> succeeded on the throne, A.D. 14.
> * Since Tiberius became Emperor in A.D. 14 the 15th year of his reign
> was A.D. 29.
He became Emperor in A.D. 14 - his 15th year would be A.D. 29. No?
I see, well that would depend on what month the events happened.
I have a birthday in 2011, but it is not for 11 months.
>
>
> >> The ministry of Jesus was the beginning of the 70th week; anything in
> >> that week is "after" the 69th week. So the crucifixion, and the
> >> destruction of the temple, are all after the 69th week.
>
> > Exactly. Anything that happens in the prophecies after the 69th week
> > is in the 70th week.
>
> > And Scripture teaches us that Jesus Christ was crucified before the
> > 70th week:
>
> No, I don't think it does. Perhaps you are assuming there was a gap?
>
> The 70th week follows the 69th week, and events "after" the 69th week
> are "in" the 70th.
>
> Suppose Bob had a birthday last November, and was 69 years old. Events
> "after" his birthday, such as a Christmas party, were in his 70th year.
That is a very good point.
>6 After the sixty-two sevens, the Anointed One will be put to death
>>>>> and will have nothing.[g]
I will have to work on this.
Excellent point.
*******
>
>
>
> > After the sixty-two �sevens,� the Anointed One will be put to death
> > and will have nothing.
>
> >> The 70th week is generally considered in two sections, the last one
> >> being a mystical three and a half years, the "time, times and a half"
> >> that extends to the end of the age, when all things are fulfilled,
> >> Daniel 12:7.
>
> > Daniel 12:
>
> > 7 The man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river,
> > lifted his right hand and his left hand toward heaven, and I heard him
> > swear by him who lives forever, saying, �It will be for a time, times
> > and half a time.[b] When the power of the holy people has been finally
> > broken, all these things will be completed.�
>
> > 11 �From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the
> > abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290
> > days. 12 Blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the end of the
> > 1,335 days.
>
> > 13 �As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at
> > the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted
> > inheritance.�
Doug
Methodius (died c. 311) was Bishop of Olympus in Lycia, and he
suffered martyrdom under Maximinus Daia in 311. He offered a similar
interpretation of the woman who flees to the wilderness for 1,260
days, in Revelation 12:6. Methodius wrote:
<quote>
Now she who brings forth, and has brought forth, the masculine Word in
the hearts of the faithful, and who passed, undefiled and uninjured by
the wrath of the beast, into the wilderness, is, as we have explained,
our mother the Church. And the wilderness into which she comes, and is
nourished for a thousand two hundred and sixty days, which is truly
waste and unfruitful of evils, and barren of corruption, and difficult
of access and of transit to the multitude; but fruitful and abounding
in pasture, and blooming and easy of access to the holy, and full of
wisdom, and productive of life, is this most lovely, and beautifully
wooded and well watered abode of Arete [virtue]. ... For the Bride of
the Word is adorned with the fruits of virtue. And the thousand two
hundred and sixty days that we are staying here, O virgins, is the
accurate and perfect understanding concerning the Father, and the Son,
and the Spirit, in which our mother increases, and rejoices, and
exults throughout this time, until the restitution of the new
dispensation, when, coming into the assembly in the heavens, she will
no longer contemplate the I AM through the means of [human] knowledge,
but will clearly behold entering in together with Christ.
<quote>
Methodius, The Banquet of the ten virgins, or, concerning chastity.
In: The writings of Methodius, Alexander of Lycopolis, Peter of
Alexandria, and several fragments. Volume 14 of Ante-Nicene Christian
library. T. & T. Clark, 1869. p. 75.
http://books.google.com/books?id=XcIUAAAAQAAJ
--
Doug
Abrams1117
24Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city,
to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make
reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting
righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint
the most Holy.
25Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the
commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the
Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street
shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but
not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall
destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with
a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in
the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to
cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it
desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be
poured upon the desolate.
OK, I have thought about this, sixty trillion times, and you said that
every Jesus Christ did happened during the 70th week. This 'must be'
because he comes after the 69 weeks:
- from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build
Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and
threescore and two weeks:-
And that Jesus Christ will be killed after the 69 weeks (which
happened in A.D. 33 - approximately) :
-26And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off-
This would mean that everything that happens in the prophecies has to/
must happen during the 70 weeks.
Verse 26 says the city shall be destroyed and the sanctuary - this was
done by the Romans in A.D. 70:
26And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but
not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall
destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with
a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
There is a gap in time.
This means we cannot say that the time Jesus Christ was teaching was
during the 70th week.
*******
> ...
>
> read more »
Doug
Remember, time has no gaps! Inserting a gap destroys Daniel's
prophecy. Why? Because the final "week" is "seven times," and it
corresponds to the last of four periods of "seven times" in Leviticus
26, which is the "curse" that was poured out upon Israel, that Daniel
refers to in Daniel 9:11. The first seven times was the exile in
Babylon; the last three correspond to the three sections of the 70 weeks.
A "gap" would mean a lapse in the curse, and would imply a temporary
reconciliation between God and his people Israel, which of course has
not happened. The reconciliation is permanent, and forever, not temporary.
The final "seven times"--the 70th week--is the time in which Christ
confirms his covenant; it includes his ministry on earth, plus the
entire church age, when Christ continues to confirm his covenant,
culminating in marriage, by the Spirit that leads us to the truth. The
last half of the 70th week is known as "a time, times, and a half," as
well as by other periods given in days, that represent a symbolic
three and a half years, or 42 months, etc.
The numbers provided by Daniel, that represent the "time, times and a
half," are 1,290 days and 1,335 days. [Daniel 12:11-12] These numbers
do not fit any real, earthly three and a half years. The same is true
of the 1,260 days that John introduces in Revelation. But they all fit
the pattern of "a time, times and a half," or three and a half
symbolic years, where months are 30 days, and there are various
combinations of regular years of 12 months, and leap years of 13 months.
1,335 days = 12 x 30 + 2 x 13 x 30 + 13 x 30 / 2
1,290 days = 13 x 30 + 2 x 12 x 30 + 12 x 30 / 2
1,260 days = 12 x 30 + 2 x 12 x 30 + 12 x 30 / 2
These all represent an "unreal" or non-literal three and a half years.
They apply to the heavenly Jerusalem, the Church. When Christ ascended
to heaven, the Jerusalem of prophecy became the heavenly city. Thus it
is invalid to apply these numbers to the earthly Jerusalem. The time
prophecies that apply to the heavenly city are not like the previous
ones; the units are symbolic. The 1,335 days, the 1,290 days, the
1,260 days represent the diminishing time remaining for the age of the
church, the last half week of the 70th week when Christ continues to
confirm the covenant with his saints. He reigns in the heavenly
Jerusalem, which is a spiritual kingdom, not an earthly one. And so
the time units for its duration are not given in terms of earthly
years, or months, or days, but in divine language, that is, in
symbolic units. Failing to recognize this, dispensationalists insert
an enormous gap between the 69th and 70th week. Thy apply non-literal
prophetic periods to the earthly Jerusalem, during a future
tribulation. There is no way that 1,260 days fits a literal three and
a half years.
Anglican theologian Austin Marsden Farrer (1904-1968) wrote:
"A solar calendar requires that about every other month shall be of 31
days, not 30. A lunar calendar must have every other month of 29 days
and an intercalary month a little more frequently than every third
year. Ao by lunar reckoning, 3 1/2 years is either about 1,270, or
about 1,300 days: or, if we neglect intercalation entirely, it is
about 1,240 days. In no case is it 1,260 days."
[Austin Marsden Farrer, A rebirth of images: the making of St. John's
Apocalypse. SUNY Press, 1986. p. 260 (Footnote)]
http://books.google.com/books?id=jNnExDoQfikC
The 1,260 days in Revelation 11:2 and 12:6 is clearly not meant to be
understood a literal three and a half years. Rather, as many Christian
scholars have said, over the centuries, it is symbolic of the entire
age of the church, when the gospel goes to all the world.
--
Doug
Abrams1117
Time is a tricky thing.
Not only does G-D declare the end from the beginning, he shows
Prophets future events (Isaiah saw Jesus Christ; David witnessed the
crucifixion), Joshua chapter 10 tells us Almighty G-D made a day
longer at Joshua’s request and Isaiah chapter 38 tells us that G-D
made a day go backwards as a sign to Hezekiah.
We know that time runs faster on the top floor of a tall building and
slower when you are on the ground. If we got near the event horizon of
a black hole time could slow down so much we could leave after a few
moments to find ourselves millions of years in the future.
Daniel 9
24Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city,
to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make
reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting
righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint
the most Holy.
25Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the
commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the
Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street
shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but
not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall
destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with
a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in
the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to
cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it
desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be
poured upon the desolate.
I do not see where you addressed the subject.
Your point was that anything happening in the prophecies that followed
the 69th week, must occur during the 70th week.
This seemed so logical I spent more hours than you can probably
imagine working on the idea.
Just read these two verses:
26And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not
for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall
destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with
a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in
the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to
cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it
desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be
poured upon the desolate.
If you see the destruction of Jerusalem in there these prophecies,
they extend to A.D. 70 - when Rome destroyed it.
Then you need a starting date that covers the 70 week period from A.D.
70 BACKWARDS. Without a gap.
If you want to answer your original idea or show me this 70 week
timeline I will be very interested in it.
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
*******
> --
> Doug
>
> http://www.sentex.net/~tcc/
Doug
The 70th week is the one that you are asking about. Daniel said, "And
he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week;" Paul said, "Now
I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the
truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:" [Romans
15:8] I suggest Paul alluded to the prophecy of Daniel. Paul also
said, "For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit,
and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh."
[Philippians 3:3]
The start of the 70th week was in 28 AD, and the ministry of Jesus was
the first half of the 70th week; the last half is the continuing
ministry of Christ by the Spirit that he sends to the Church. Since
Jesus ascended to heaven, the final half-week applies to the heavenly
city.
Daniel said, "and in the midst of the week he shall cause the
sacrifice and the oblation to cease." Since the last half of the 70th
week is not three and a half earth years, or 1,260 earth days, but
those are symbolic of the whole age of the church, all the events of
the first century, after Christ ascended to heaven, fell in the
"midst" of the 70th week. The sacrifice and oblation ceased when the
temple was destroyed. That is how I understand this part of the prophecy.
Daniel said, "...and for the overspreading of abominations he shall
make it desolate, even until the consummation..." The earthly city was
destroyed; Paul identified the earthly city with Hagar, Sarah's
bondwoman, who was cast out of Abraham's house. [Galatians 4:30] The
prophecy of desolation applies to the heavenly city, not the earthly
one. The city must be the holy city, for it to be made desolate. The
earthly city was no longer holy; it had been cast out. So this
desolation refers to the church. The abominations that the prophecy
refers to are all kinds of false teachings and flawed interpretations,
etc, that have divided and spoiled the church; the tens of thousands
of denominations, for example.
Daniel wrote: "...and that determined shall be poured upon the
desolate." This refers to whatever it is that causes desolation.
Something is "determined," and is ready to be "poured out." It is a
judgment. And it exposes whatever is wrong, or causes offence. Peter
referred to such a judgment:
2 Peter 2:1-3
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there
shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable
heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon
themselves swift destruction.
And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way
of truth shall be evil spoken of.
And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make
merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not,
and their damnation slumbereth not.
I suggest this is what is to be "poured upon the desolate" or whatever
is causing desolation. On the other hand, many prophecies suggest that
the Spirit of God is to be poured upon the church that has become
desolate.
Zechariah 12:9-11
And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all
the nations that come against Jerusalem.
And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of
Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall
look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as
one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as
one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
I think this refers to the heavenly Jerusalem. The nations that come
against it include the spiritual enemies, and dogmas, traditions,
etc., to which the saints are captive. The house of David is
identified with the church in Acts 15:16. The phrase "they shall look
upon me whom they have pierced" refers to understanding the gospel and
knowing Christ as the Savior who died for us; it has nothing to do
with ethnic Jews of the first century AD. Isaiah said:
Isaiah 53:4-6
Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did
esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our
iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his
stripes we are healed.
All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his
own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
--
Doug
Abrams1117
Not an answer. I will say it again (for the 3rd time?) you said that
an event (a specific one) must happen in the 70th week if it follows
the 69th week.
On the surface this makes perfect sense. I then spent many hours
thinking about that. Then I realized that the destruction of
Jerusalem comes after the 69th week.
Either you have to create a timeline without a gap that runs for 70
consecutive weeks (you understand) and ends with A.D. 70 or you point
is not a valid one.
What was your point?
That an event following the 69th week had to occur in the 70th week,
If other events that follow the 69th week do not occur during the 70th
week your point is not valid.
Now, you need to prove a timeline that ends in A.D. 70 or say that the
destruction of Jerusalem happened outside of the 70th week.
>
> The start of the 70th week was in 28 AD, and the ministry of Jesus was
> the first half of the 70th week; the last half is the continuing
> ministry of Christ by the Spirit that he sends to the Church. Since
> Jesus ascended to heaven, the final half-week applies to the heavenly
> city.
You want to insist that there can be no gap in the prophecy. And that
each week has the very same number of years. Then you want to take
part of one week and stretch it into thousands of years. I see nothing
in prophecy that can even suggest this.
And since Jerusalem was destroyed in A.D. 70 and this event is in the
prophecies there 'is a gap' there. You prefer to make it a stretch.
PD had a good point, the 70 years in Jeremiah were 70 years. If these
times are what they say they are, then the only option is that they
are separate events.
7 weeks
62 weeks
1 week
But, they are not consecutive.
Instead of saying 'after the 62 weeks' it could have simply said 'in
the 70th week'.
Why doesn't it? Maybe it couldn't.
It is feeding time at the zoo.....the baby parakeets are crying for
food.
And the cat, named cat (it is easy to remember) is also crying and
looking at them.
*******
@tampabay.rr.com Pastor Dave
<John...@peoplepc.com> spake thusly:
Somehow, I caught this message, so I will respond.
But before beginning, let me state that what I am
saying, is always the following three things:
1) Jesus returned at the desolation of Jerusalem
and the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD.
2) This did not occur within Daniel's 70 weeks.
3) Daniel's 70 weeks were consecutive.
I know that sounds confusing and impossible to you,
but those are the things that I am stating.
> Doug wrote:
>
>> Abrams1117 wrote:
>
> Not an answer. I will say it again (for the 3rd time?)
> you said that an event (a specific one) must happen
> in the 70th week if it follows the 69th week.
And that is the fallacy. It doesn't have to do that.
> On the surface this makes perfect sense.
> I then spent many hours thinking about
> that. Then I realized that the destruction
> of Jerusalem comes after the 69th week.
>
> Either you have to create a timeline without
> a gap that runs for 70 consecutive weeks
> (you understand) and ends with A.D. 70,
> or you point is not a valid one.
He doesn't have to create what is already there.
It is you "gap" people that "create" a time line
where Daniel does not state one.
> What was your point?
>
> That an event following the 69th week had to
> occur in the 70th week,
>
> If other events that follow the 69th week do not
> occur during the 70th week your point is not valid.
If his claim is as you said it is, then no, it is not valid.
But do I trust you to accurately relay what someone
has said? No, since even in this very message you
misrepresented what I have said and I was quite
clear about what I said and made it clear repeatedly
and you have done this to me every time!
> Now, you need to prove a timeline that ends in
> A.D. 70 or say that the destruction of Jerusalem
> happened outside of the 70th week.
It did happen outside of the 70th week. But before
you jump to conclusions, as you always do, that does
not mean that I am saying that the 70 weeks were
not consecutive.
I will say it again, because even when I say it,
you refuse to comprehend it.
THAT DOES NOT MEAN THAT I AM SAYING THAT
THE 70 WEEKS WERE NOT CONSECUTIVE!!!
>> The start of the 70th week was in 28 AD
>> and the ministry of Jesus was the first half
>> of the 70th week; the last half is the continuing
>> ministry of Christ by the Spirit that he sends to
>> the Church. Since Jesus ascended to heaven,
>> the final half-week applies to the heavenly city.
>
> You want to insist that there can be no gap in
> the prophecy. And that each week has the very
> same number of years. Then you want to take
> part of one week and stretch it into thousands
> of years. I see nothing in prophecy that can
> even suggest this.
And yet, you have no problem stretching the whole
week "thousands of years". And that is what makes
you a hypocrite! You constantly rail against other
people for committing smaller versions of the same
faux pas that you commit!
You constantly say how wrong it is to add a gap and
then you insert a gap that is about 50 times longer!
> And since Jerusalem was destroyed in A.D. 70
> and this event is in the prophecies there 'is a gap'
> there. You prefer to make it a stretch.
No, that does not mean that there is a gap there.
And once again, you look down your nose at him
for "creating a gap of 37 years" and yet, you create
a gap of thousands of years! So who the Hell are
you, to be pointing your finger at anyone, pal?!
> PD had a good point, the 70 years in Jeremiah
> were 70 years. If these times are what they
> say they are, then the only option is that they
> are separate events.
>
> 7 weeks
> 62 weeks
> 1 week
>
> But, they are not consecutive.
Now you are twisting my words again! The above
was not my point! I never said they are separate
events! I never divided up the 70 weeks into
separate events! Why do you lie so damn much?!
What I said about Jeremiah's 70 years, was that
Daniel referenced it when he stated his prophecy
of 70 weeks of years and the fact that Jeremiah's
70 years were not divided, should tell you that
neither were Daniel's! Nor did Daniel state any
sort of gap and if the Bible doesn't say it and
you insist it does, that means that you're adding
your own words to the Bible and then claiming
that the Bible says what you just added to it!
I also noted that if the time could not be counted
sequentially, then there was no way to test the
prophet that gives a specific time frame, which
is what Daniel did, but you don't want to believe!
Now I will explain this to you just this one last time!
And remember, there is NO GAP!!! NONE AT ALL!!!
The time is CONSECUTIVE!!!
At the end of the 69th week, the Messiah is anointed.
This begins the 70th week and is the time in which
"Messiah the Prince makes firm the covenant".
The Messiah is "cut off" in the middle of the 70th week.
That's right, the Messiah (His crucifixion). Contrary to
the popular view, it does not say that any covenant is
cut of after half the week goes by. It says that the
person is cut off, which in this case, is the Messiah!
As for the covenant, Daniel specifically said that it
would be made strong/confirmed for a whole week!
The last half of the 70th week is the Apostles carrying
on the mission, finishing the confirming of the covenant.
27) And he shall confirm the covenant with many
for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall
cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease and for
the overspreading of abominations he shall make it
desolate, even until the consummation, and that
determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Now note VERY CAREFULLY the wording of the rest!
It DOES NOT include it in the 70th week!
It says that "for the overspreading of abominations
He SHALL make it desolate".
It does NOT say when that would happen!
Now, how do we know that it doesn't happen within
the 70 week period? Very simple! And pay attention
now, because this is the part that you and many other
people have been reading wrong. :)
And you read it wrong, because you look at what v27
says and don't see the words "shall make" and then
you also fail to back up to v26 and read what it says.
26) And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah
be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the
prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the
sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood
and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
Now what does it say in the last sentence of this verse
would happen regarding "desolations"? Does it say that
the desolations would happen then? No! It doesn't!
So what does it actually say? It says that "desolations
are DETERMINED". Not that the desolations occur then.
Read it again.... "...desolations ARE DETERMINED".
So according to what the Bible says, the only thing that
happens during the 70 weeks, is that the "desolations"
that the "Prince that shall come" "shall do", are merely
"determined" to happen!
In other words, "the decision is made that the desolations
will occur". That's all that the word "determined" means.
And why does it happen? Because, during the 70th week,
they seal their fate, by killing the Son! And they shall be
desolated for that, just as Jesus said in His parable, which
the Pharisees knew He said about them, in Matt 21:33-46
and in Matt 23-25 and in other places! Read them and see!
My view lines up perfectly with what the passages actually say
and fit both the passages here and history and more importantly,
all of the other places in Scripture that I have shown you, that
have Jesus saying the same thing!
Yours on the other hand, places a "thousands of years gap"
in the prophecy that the prophet never states, forces modern
weapons and war into passages that read of ancient weapons
and ignores all of the other things that Jesus and the Apostles
taught about it happening within their generation.
Now whose view makes more sense? You seem to think
it's yours. The same view that hypocritically ridicules
someone who places a 37 year gap in there, which btw,
I do not (yet you keep saying that I do), while yours
places a "thousands of years gap" in there! Huh?!
--
Pastor Dave
"If you don't accept responsibility for your own actions,
then you are forever chained to a position of defense."
-Holly Lisle
Abrams1117
Jesus Christ said that the abomination of desolation was still a
future event.
Matthew 24:15-16:
24:15: When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation,
spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso
readeth, let him understand:)
24:16: Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Daniel wrote this about 550 years earlier. And it was still an
unfulfilled prophecy.
Where does Daniel use the terms abomination and/or desolation ?
Daniel 9:27 (ASV) "And he shall make a firm covenant with many for one
week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and
the oblation to cease; and upon the wing of abominations [shall come]
one that maketh desolate; and even unto the full end, and that
determined, shall [wrath] be poured out upon the desolate."
Daniel 11:31 (ASV) "And forces shall stand on his part, and they shall
profane the sanctuary, even the fortress, and shall take away the
continual [burnt-offering], and they shall set up the abomination that
maketh desolate."
Daniel 12:11 (ASV) "And from the time that the continual [burnt-
offering] shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh
desolate set up, there shall be a thousand and two hundred and ninety
days."
If I understand correctly, you believe that the sacrifice (Daniel
9:27) ceases because Jesus Christ replaced the need for animal
sacrifices at/with his death.
Daniel 9
24Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city,
to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make
reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting
righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint
the most Holy.
25Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the
commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the
Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street
shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but
not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall
destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with
a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in
the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to
cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it
desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be
poured upon the desolate.
Verses 26 and 27 above seem to say the sacrifices end because the city
and sanctuary are destroyed.
Daniel 11
29At the time appointed he shall return, and come toward the south;
but it shall not be as the former, or as the latter.
30For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall
be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy
covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence
with them that forsake the holy covenant.
31And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the
sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and
they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
32And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by
flatteries: but the people that do know their G-D shall be strong, and
do exploits.
33And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet
they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by
spoil, many days.
34Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help:
but many shall cleave to them with flatteries.
35And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to
purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it
is yet for a time appointed.
36And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt
himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak
marvellous things against the G-D of gods, and shall prosper till the
indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be
done.
37Neither shall he regard the G-D of his fathers, nor the desire of
women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.
38But in his estate shall he honour the god of forces: and a god whom
his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with
precious stones, and pleasant things.
39Thus shall he do in the most strong holds with a strange god, whom
he shall acknowledge and increase with glory: and he shall cause them
to rule over many, and shall divide the land for gain.
40And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him:
and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind,
with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall
enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.
41He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries
shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, even
Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon.
42He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the
land of Egypt shall not escape.
43But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver,
and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the
Ethiopians shall be at his steps.
44But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him:
therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to
make away many.
45And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas
in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none
shall help him.
Verse 31 above seems to say that armies (arms) shall use force to stop
the sacrifices.
Daniel 12
6And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters
of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?
7And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of
the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto
heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a
time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to
scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be
finished.
8And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what
shall be the end of these things?
9And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and
sealed till the time of the end.
10Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked
shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the
wise shall understand.
11And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and
the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand
two hundred and ninety days.
12Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three
hundred and five and thirty days.
13But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand
in thy lot at the end of the days.
Verse 11 above says the daily sacrifice was taken away, not that it
was replaced by something or made unnecessary.
The verses seem to lean more toward violent acts of men to remove the
sacrifices, destroy the city , destroy the Temple etc.
I think it means what it says.
Abrams1117
wrote:
> On Tue, 18 Jan 2011 03:21:38 -0800 (PST), Abrams1117
>
> Somehow, I caught this message, so I will respond.
>
> But before beginning, let me state that what I am
> saying, is always the following three things:
>
> 1) Jesus returned at the desolation of Jerusalem
> and the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD.
Cannot be.
Zechariah says he destroys the nations attacking Jerusalem not uses
them to do the attacking:
Zechariah 12:
8In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and
he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the
house of David shall be as G-D, as the angel of the LORD before them.
9And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy
all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
>
> 2) This did not occur within Daniel's 70 weeks.
Then the 70th week according to you must have a gap.
The destruction of Jerusalem is found in those prophecies:
Daniel 9:
24Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy
city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to
make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting
righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint
the most Holy.
25Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the
commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the
Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street
shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but
not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall
destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with
a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in
the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to
cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it
desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be
poured upon the desolate.
>
> 3) Daniel's 70 weeks were consecutive.
Consecutive from A.D. 70 back to when?
I said If - and you haven't answered anything yet.
>No, since even in this very message you
> misrepresented what I have said and I was quite
> clear about what I said and made it clear repeatedly
> and you have done this to me every time!
If it were clear it could not be misunderstood.
>
> > Now, you need to prove a timeline that ends in
> > A.D. 70 or say that the destruction of Jerusalem
> > happened outside of the 70th week.
>
> It did happen outside of the 70th week. But before
> you jump to conclusions, as you always do, that does
> not mean that I am saying that the 70 weeks were
> not consecutive.
>
> I will say it again, because even when I say it,
> you refuse to comprehend it.
>
> THAT DOES NOT MEAN THAT I AM SAYING THAT
> THE 70 WEEKS WERE NOT CONSECUTIVE!!!
Then any part of the prophecy can be excluded form the timeline of 70
weeks. Which was a point I was making, thanks. Jesus Christ was killed
after the 69th week but not during the 70th week.
>
> >> The start of the 70th week was in 28 AD
> >> and the ministry of Jesus was the first half
> >> of the 70th week; the last half is the continuing
> >> ministry of Christ by the Spirit that he sends to
> >> the Church. Since Jesus ascended to heaven,
> >> the final half-week applies to the heavenly city.
>
> > You want to insist that there can be no gap in
> > the prophecy. And that each week has the very
> > same number of years. Then you want to take
> > part of one week and stretch it into thousands
> > of years. I see nothing in prophecy that can
> > even suggest this.
>
> And yet, you have no problem stretching the whole
> week "thousands of years". And that is what makes
> you a hypocrite! You constantly rail against other
> people for committing smaller versions of the same
> faux pas that you commit!
Doug stretches the week. I'm saying that each event is described and
the duration of that event. But, they are not consecutive. The proof
is the destruction of Jerusalem as you seem to agree. And before you
fly off the handle, again, I know what you mean, and what I mean.
>
> You constantly say how wrong it is to add a gap and
> then you insert a gap that is about 50 times longer!
I said it is wrong to have a gap? The prophecy puts the gap by adding
events from A.D. 70.
>
> > And since Jerusalem was destroyed in A.D. 70
> > and this event is in the prophecies there 'is a gap'
> > there. You prefer to make it a stretch.
>
> No, that does not mean that there is a gap there.
>
> And once again, you look down your nose at him
> for "creating a gap of 37 years" and yet, you create
> a gap of thousands of years! So who the Hell are
> you, to be pointing your finger at anyone, pal?!
>
Learn to read between your judging and cursing sometimes.
Who? Doug? His last week is over 2,000 years long - he stretches it.
> > PD had a good point, the 70 years in Jeremiah
> > were 70 years. If these times are what they
> > say they are, then the only option is that they
> > are separate events.
>
> > 7 weeks
> > 62 weeks
> > 1 week
>
> > But, they are not consecutive.
>
> Now you are twisting my words again! The above
> was not my point! I never said they are separate
> events! I never divided up the 70 weeks into
> separate events! Why do you lie so damn much?!
LOL
My point had nothing to do with them being consecutive or not. It was
about the duration of events. Since one said 70 years and it was 70
years it seems logical that one says 70 weeks and it was to be 70
weeks. That is the point. And stop cursing.
I HAVE TO RUN. NON-FUTURIST SPEAK FOR: GO DO OTHER THINGS.
******
>
> What I said about Jeremiah's 70 years, was that
> Daniel referenced it when he stated his prophecy
> of 70 weeks of years and the fact that Jeremiah's
> 70 years were not divided, should tell you that
> neither were Daniel's! Nor did Daniel state any
> sort of gap and if the Bible doesn't say it and
> you insist it does, that means that you're adding
> your own words to the Bible and then claiming
> that the Bible says what you just added to it!
Jerusalem destroyed in A.D. 70 AFTER THE 69TH WEEK:
26And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not
for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall
destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with
a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
This means?: GAP.
Doug
> On Jan 18, 1:54 am, Doug<t...@sentex.net> wrote:
>> Abrams1117 wrote:
>>> On Jan 17, 5:42 pm, Doug<t...@sentex.net> wrote:
>>>> Abrams1117 wrote:
>>>>> On Jan 15, 9:19 pm, Abrams1117<John1...@peoplepc.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On Jan 15, 8:47 pm, Doug<t...@sentex.net> wrote:
>>
>>>>>>> Abrams1117 wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Jan 15, 4:28 pm, Doug<t...@sentex.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Abrams1117 wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Jan 15, 3:12 pm, Abrams1117<John1...@peoplepc.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Jan 15, 2:57 pm, Abrams1117<John1...@peoplepc.com> wrote:
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jan 15, 1:06 pm, Doug<t...@sentex.net> wrote:
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Abrams1117 wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jan 14, 10:38 pm, Pastor Dave<newsgroup-mail @ tampabay.rr.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, 14 Jan 2011 14:03:30 -0800 (PST), Abrams1117
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <John1...@peoplepc.com> spake thusly:
>>
<snip>
>>> longer at Joshua�s request and Isaiah chapter 38 tells us that G-D
week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and
the oblation to cease." [Daniel 9:27]
I don't understand why you suggest that the 70th week should end in 70
AD. That is what (some) preterists say. The destruction of the temple,
the ending of ritual sacrifices, and oblations, occurred "in the
***midst*** of the week," implying that a major portion of the 70th
week was yet to occur after those events.
Here are some further points to note about the 70 weeks prophecy.
1. THE PROPHECY IS NOT ISOLATED
Daniel's prophecy of the 70 weeks does not stand by itself in
isolation; it is given in the context of the covenant that God made
with Abraham, that Paul called the gospel in Galatians 3:8, and the
promises made to Israel, and of other prophecies, such as those of
Jeremiah, and the prophecy contained in Leviticus 26, promises and
prophecies that Daniel refers to in his prayer of confession, which
was the prelude to the 70 weeks prophecy. [Daniel 9:4 & vs. 11]
Besides, Isaiah's prophecy named Cyrus as the one who would give the
word to build Jerusalem and the temple. [Isaiah 44:28]
Besides, the covenant and promises made to David about a future
Messiah to reign on his throne forever figure in the 70 weeks
prophecy. All of the above have to be considered, when trying to
figure out the 70 weeks.
Daniel's 70 weeks were given in three sections. If the first "seven
times" of the curse outlined in Leviticus 26 was the captivity in
Babylon, as Daniel 9:11 suggests, there remained yet three more
periods of "seven times," the last three of four periods of "seven
times" mentioned in Leviticus 26. These correspond to the three
sections of the 70 weeks, the 7 weeks, and 62 weeks, and one week.
In the last of the four periods of "seven times" God would be
reconciled to his people, and would remember the land.
2. THE 70 WEEKS PROPHECY IS ABOUT SPIRITUAL THINGS
Daniel's prophecy of the 70 weeks concerns spiritual things, of
eternal significance, that have to do with the gospel, rather than
political events on the earth. This is clearly evident in the list of
things that the angel Gabriel said would be fulfilled in the 70 weeks:
Daniel 9:24
Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city,
to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make
reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting
righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint
the most Holy.
Each of these have to do with the gospel.
The apostle Peter said that the prophets wrote of the gospel, "the
grace that should come unto you;" they wrote by the Spirit of Christ
which was in them; and they ministered "unto us," that is, the Church.
Peter referred specifically to prophecies about time, and Daniel's
prophecy of the 70 weeks, more than any other prophecy in the Bible,
specifies the times related to Christ's coming and salvation.
1 Peter 1:9-12
Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently,
who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was
in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of
Christ, and the glory that should follow.
Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they
did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that
have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from
heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.
3. END POINTS OF THE 70 WEEKS ARE DEFINED
The 70 weeks start with the decree of Cyrus, as Isaiah said. He wrote:
Isaiah 44:28
That saith of Cyrus, He is my shepherd, and shall perform all my
pleasure: even saying to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be built; and to the
temple, Thy foundation shall be laid.
Isaiah named Cyrus as the one who would give the word to build both
the temple, and the city of Jerusalem. This was fulfilled in 538 BC.
Edward J. Young pointed out that there is a spiritual aspect to the
things Isaiah wrote about Cyrus, the Persian king who liberated the
Jews, and allowed them to return to their homeland. In Isaiah's
prophecy, Cyrus seems to be associated with the Lord's Servant of
other prophecies, as a type or figure of Christ, who liberates the
saints from spiritual Babylon.
<quote>
Isaiah then points out that there will come in the future a
deliverance, and this deliverance will be the work of Cyrus, the king
of Persia. But this does not exhaust his message. The people of God
will go through many vicissitudes; they will be in bondage to
Babylonia. There is, however, a deeper bondage which enslaves them and
this bondage is spiritual in nature. From this servitude Cyrus cannot
set them free. The delivery under Cyrus will be a prelude to a far
greater deliverance, but it will be only that, nothing more. From the
spiritual bondage which is enslaving the people of God and holding
them captive, there is need of a greater victory and deliverance than
Cyrus can possibly achieve. And this deliverance is the work of the
Servant of the Lord.
This strange figure is introduced first in chapter forty-two.
Concerning him literally volumes have been written. There is however,
one point which must be noted, and which, all too often, is overlooked
in discussions of the question. The work which the Servant performs is
spiritual in nature. The bondage from which He delivers is one caused
by human sin, and the deliverance which He accomplishes is of such
nature that it frees the soul from this bondage and brings the soul
again into peace with God. In all history there is only One who can
accomplish such a redemption, and that is the Messiah, even Jesus the
Christ, our Lord and Redeemer.
</quote>
http://www.dabar.org/semreview/ejyoung.htm
The end point of the 70 weeks is the resurrection, and the end of the
age, when the saints obtain their eternal inheritance.
4. THE 70 WEEKS HAVE NO GAPS
Any interpretation that invokes a gap can be dismissed. Time has no gaps!
The 70 weeks began with the decree to rebuild Jerusalem. This was the
decree of Cyrus, 538 BC. The first section can be taken to be 7 weeks
of leap years which had 13 months. There were 7 of these in 19 years,
so 49 leap years is 133 years. Then the second section is 62 weeks,
434 years. And 133 + 434 = 567 years, the time from 538 to 28 AD which
is early in the ministry of Jesus.
The last week, when Christ confirms his covenant with many, is partly
fulfilled in Christ's ministry on earth among the Jews, and partly
fulfilled in the period since Jesus ascended to heaven after his
resurrection.
In heaven the time units are different, since earthly time does not
apply to spiritual things; the last half-week is symbolic of the
entire age of the church. We are still in it! Christ still confirms
his covenant! There is no gap in the 70 weeks.
5. THE 70TH WEEK IS FULFILLED BY CHRIST
In the first two sections of the 70 weeks prophecy, the 7 weeks and
the 62 weeks, the time periods apply to the earthly city of Jerusalem,
and are fulfilled in terms of earthly units of time. This is also true
of the first half of the 70th week. But for the last half-week, after
Christ ascended to heaven, time applied to the heavenly Jerusalem is
no longer earthly in nature; the time is symbolic; the final half-week
is a prophetic symbol. The events mentioned in the prophecy that occur
in the final half week apply to the heavenly Jerusalem, a spiritual
city, not the earthly one.
Isaiah said that Jerusalem and "the mountain of the Lord's house"
would be raised up above the hills, and would be exalted to the tops
of the mountains. [Isaiah 2:1-3] In the New Testament this was
fulfilled; Jerusalem is in heaven.
The last half-week of Daniel's 70th week applies not to the earthly
Jerusalem, as the previous part of the prophecy does, but to the
heavenly Jerusalem, the Jerusalem that was raised up above the hills
when Jesus ascended to heaven and when this fact is considered, it
makes sense that the last half week would be symbolic of the entire
age of the church.
6. THE LAST HALF WEEK IS THE "TIME, TIMES AND A HALF"
This is understood from several scriptures. The "little horn" of
Daniel 7 remains until the end of the age.
Daniel 7:21-22
I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed
against them;
Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints
of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the
kingdom.
Daniel 7:25 says the saints "shall be given into his hand until a time
and times and the dividing of time."
Daniel 12:7 also shows that the "time, times and a half" extends to
the end of the age.
In Revelation 11 and 12 the final half-week of the 70th week is
represented symbolically by 42 months, and by 1,260 days. Each refers
to the remaining time of the church.
7. THE LAST HALF-WEEK IS THE ENTIRE AGE OF THE CHURCH
Many Christian interpreters have identified the meaning of the 1,260
days, and the "time, times and a half" (which is understood to be the
final half of the 70th week) as symbolic of the whole age of the
church. I previously quoted Methodius (died c. 311), Venerable Bede
(672-735), John Bale (1495-1563), and Mathias Rissi (1920-2006) who
all identified the period with the whole age of the church.
Christopher Wordsworth (1807-1885), an Anglican priest, and canon of
Westminster, who became bishop of Lincoln, and was a gifted scholar,
also supported this interpretation. He wrote, on the 1,260 days:
<quote>
These 1260 days equal forty-two months, or three years and a half; and
they are mentioned under all these terms in the Apocalypse.
The Holy City is trodden by the Gentiles forty-two Months. [Rev. xi.
2] It is given to the Beast, to exercise his power forty-two
months.[Rev. xiii. 5] The Two Witnesses preach in sackcloth 1260 Days.
[Rev. xi. 3] The Woman is in the Wilderness 1260 Days; [Rev. xii. 6]
and she is also said to be in the Wilderness a time, times, and half a
time; that is, three years and a half. [Rev. xii. 14]
Now, if we examine the records of Scripture, we find that the period
of three years and a half represents an idea; one of spiritual toil,
pilgrimage, and persecution.
First, it may be observed, that three and a half, being the half of
seven, which is the number of completeness, represents a semi-perfect
state; one of transition and probation.
In illustration of this, it may be remarked here, that the body of the
Two Witnesses remains unburied three days and a half. [Rev. xi. 9, 11]
The same kind of opposition to the Apostolic number Twelve may,
perhaps, be thought to exist in the half of that number, Six; and to
exhibit itself in the remarkable combination of Six Hundreds, Six
Tens, and Six Units, which constitute the number of the name of the
Beast. [Rev. xiii. 8]
Let us pass to facts.
Three years and a half, or forty-two months, or 1260 days, are, as we
have seen, the time of the pilgrimage of the Woman in the Wilderness,
that is, of the Church in her trials. This number forty-two connects
her with the History of the Israelitish Church in the Wilderness. Its
haltings are enumerated in the Book of Numbers, [Num. xxxiii. 1-50]
and they are Forty-two. And all these things (says St. Paul) happened
to them as types of us. [1 Cor. x. 6-11] They foreshadow the history
of the Christian Church in her pilgrimage through the Wilderness of
this World to the promised land of Heaven.
Again: "I tell you of a truth," says Our Blessed Lord, "many widows
were in Israel in the days of Elias, when the heaven was shut up three
years and six months, when great famine was throughout all the land."
[Luke iv. 26] And St. James says, "Elias prayed it mjght not rain; and
it rained not on the Earth by the space of three years and six
months." [James v. 17]
It also pleased God to strengthen the type, if we may so speak, by
assigning the same duration of three years and a half to the
persecution of the Church of Israel by Antiochus Epiphanes.
St. John's precursor, Daniel, had named that period as the duration of
that persecution. He had also identified it with the future time of
the trials of the Christian Church, which are more fully described by
St. John.
Thus the very mention of three years and a half to the ear of an
Israelite had an ominous sound. It was his chronological symbol of
suffering.
And to us Christians there is another reason why it should be
identified with a time of trial, since, as some ancient WritersJ
assure us, and there is good reason to believe, this period of three
years and a half was the duration of the earthly Ministry of Him,--the
great Prophet, the Divine Witness--"who was a Man of sorrows and
acquainted with grief" [Isa. liii. 3] and who, as Daniel prophesied,
caused the sacrifice of the Temple to cease in the midst of a week by
his own oblation on the cross.
Hence this period of three years and a half, forty-two months, or
1260 days (resting on a solid historical basis,) is employed in the
Apocalypse as a typical exponent of an idea; just as the numbers four,
seven, twelve, and twelve times twelve, do not represent a precise
sum, but a well-defined principle.
We observe, in passing, that the Locusts of the fifth Trumpet are
said to have power to injure the five months. This number also
expresses an idea. It designates the time of the duration of the
Deluge, and indicates that the Locusts would cover the world, like the
flood; but that the Ark of the Church would float upon the waters, and
rest securely, when they were abated.
I do not venture to affirm, that the Church may not be called
hereafter to endure intense suffering for three years and a half, and
so a second, literal, fulfillment be given to this prophecy; but, on
the whole, we arrive at this conclusion, that we cannot safely deduce
any precise arithmetical results, with regard to the future, from this
number of three and a half years, forty-two months, or 1260 days.
Let us not, however, imagine that these numbers are superfluous.
Nothing in Scripture is so. "God has ordered all things in measure and
number and weight." [Luke iv. 26] We cannot now understand all the
harmonies of the divine Arithmetic, yet some we can. These numbers in
the Apocalypse are of great use. They do not indeed gratify the
cravings of human curiosity. They do not enable us to construct a
prophetical Ephemeris, or an Apocalyptic Almanack. But they present to
us certain parallelisms. They show that the sufferings of Scripture
coincide with those of the Church, and with the Empire of the Beast.
They remind us of our own ignorance, and of God's knowledge. They
teach us patience. They tell us that the days of man are few, and that
a Millennium is but a moment to the Eternal. They warn us that we are
not to expect sabbatical perfection in this World. They have also an
analogical value. They remind us that here we are to look for
trials--trials such as those endured by the Ancient Church of Israel
in her forty-two sojournings in the wilderness;--trials such as those
endured by Elias under Ahab, by the Maccabees under Antiochus, and by
Christ from his own countrymen. And they encourage us with the joyful
assurance, that if we are true to Christ, and maintain his cause with
zeal, courage, and charity, then, though we suffer, we shall conquer
also; that our sufferings will soon be over; that they will appear
like a few days; then even for us there will be a chariot of fire, and
a heavenly Feast of Dedication, and a cloud of heavenly glory, and an
eternity of joy.
</quote>
[Wordsworth, Christopher. Lectures on the Apocalypse: critical,
expository, and practical, delivered before the University of
Cambridge. (Hulsean lectures) 2nd. ed. H. Hooker, 1852. pp. 205-209.]
http://books.google.com/books?id=K6Q8AAAAYAAJ
Abrams1117
That is an assumption.
>Nor did Daniel state any
> > sort of gap and if the Bible doesn't say it and
> > you insist it does, that means that you're adding
> > your own words to the Bible and then claiming
> > that the Bible says what you just added to it!
You change it by saying the destruction of Jerusalem is in the
prophecy but you do not want to add it to the 70 weeks. What sense
does that make?
>
> Jerusalem destroyed in A.D. 70 AFTER THE 69TH WEEK:
>
> 26And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not
> for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall
> destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with
> a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
>
> This means?: GAP.
>
> > I also noted that if the time could not be counted
> > sequentially, then there was no way to test the
> > prophet that gives a specific time frame, which
> > is what Daniel did, but you don't want to believe!
The time from the command to the coming of Jesus Christ is amazingly
accurate.
You are ignoring the previous verse:
> 26And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not
> for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall
> destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with
> a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
After the 69 weeks:
1) Messiah is cut off
2) Jerusalem is destroyed
* If you do not have to include the destruction of Jerusalem in the
70th week you cannot insist that the Messiah being cut off must be
included in the 70th week.
But, you will never address this.
>
> > Now, how do we know that it doesn't happen within
> > the 70 week period? Very simple! And pay attention
> > now, because this is the part that you and many other
> > people have been reading wrong. :)
>
> > And you read it wrong, because you look at what v27
> > says and don't see the words "shall make" and then
> > you also fail to back up to v26 and read what it says.
>
> > 26) And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah
> > be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the
> > prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the
> > sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood
> > and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
>
> > Now what does it say in the last sentence of this verse
> > would happen regarding "desolations"? Does it say that
> > the desolations would happen then? No! It doesn't!
When is then? If you mean after the 69th week, then yes. It happens
after the 69th week.
If you list any event and say this happens after a certain time or
event and then you add this other event will also happen, then the
subsequent event must happen after that certain time/event.
>
> > So what does it actually say? It says that "desolations
> > are DETERMINED". Not that the desolations occur then.
>
> > Read it again.... "...desolations ARE DETERMINED".
After the 69th week: Messiah be cut off and the people of the prince
that shall come shall destroy the city
This only means that after the 69 weeks these two things happen:
1) Messiah be cut off
2) the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city
26) And after threescore and two weeks -SHALL- (IN THE FUTURE)
Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince
that -SHALL- (IN THE FUTURE) come shall destroy the city and the
sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood and unto the end
of the war desolations are determined.
>
> > So according to what the Bible says, the only thing that
> > happens during the 70 weeks, is that the "desolations"
> > that the "Prince that shall come" "shall do", are merely
> > "determined" to happen!
SHALL: BE CUT OFF - DESTROY THE CITY THESE EVENTS -SHALL- HAPPEN.
>
> > In other words, "the decision is made that the desolations
> > will occur". That's all that the word "determined" means.
>
> > And why does it happen? Because, during the 70th week,
> > they seal their fate, by killing the Son! And they shall be
> > desolated for that, just as Jesus said in His parable, which
> > the Pharisees knew He said about them, in Matt 21:33-46
> > and in Matt 23-25 and in other places! Read them and see!
I would love to be able to say the first half was Jesus Christ's
sacrifice for us and the second until the stoning of Stephen. It is
very neat and clean. But, you would have to cut many, many verses out
of Scripture to do this.
The destruction of Jerusalem is in those prophecies but people want
to pick and choose times , lengths , inclusions, exclusions etc.
When the very fact that this event is mention shows that the years
cannot be consecutive people ignore this.
> > My view lines up perfectly with what the passages actually say
> > and fit both the passages here and history and more importantly,
> > all of the other places in Scripture that I have shown you, that
> > have Jesus saying the same thing!
>
> > Yours on the other hand, places a "thousands of years gap"
> > in the prophecy that the prophet never states, forces modern
> > weapons and war into passages that read of ancient weapons
> > and ignores all of the other things that Jesus and the Apostles
> > taught about it happening within their generation.
>
> > Now whose view makes more sense? You seem to think
> > it's yours. The same view that hypocritically ridicules
> > someone who places a 37 year gap in there, which btw,
> > I do not (yet you keep saying that I do), while yours
> > places a "thousands of years gap" in there! Huh?!
You simply remove the destruction from the prophecy itself. And then
later use it to support your doctrine. As for changing things you know
full well that 'futurists' as you call them, can simply cut and paste
hundreds of verses in support of their views while 'preterists' have
to stop and insert countless explanations:
* Here water means spirit
*Here lion means warrior
* Here lamb means Christian
Who has to do more work to defend their point of view?
At any rate, the fact that there is discussion is progress and may
lead to a full understanding. There are, obviously reasons for people
to believe what they do believe, or they would not even bother to
argue about it.
Every time I think about this I have a flashback to the movie (yes,
another movie) Contact and how they figured out the blueprints. I
think they are us.
Doug
IMO, the 70 weeks prophecy itself requires that different units for
the various sections, or else, what need would there be for three
sections? Why not say, "sixty and nine weeks," instead of "seven
weeks, and threescore and two weeks"? It would be a lot more concise.
The use of different units is indicated by the separation of the 70
weeks into three sections, 7 weeks, 62 weeks, and one week.
The units of the first section of 7 weeks differ from the units of the
2nd section of 62 weeks, and the final week, and failure to recognize
this, and taking the units as all the same, leads to mistaken
interpretations.
For example, many have claimed the units of all three sections are the
same, and they are all weeks of years, or 70 x 7 years, which is 490
years. But scripture does not tell us that. Neither does it say they
are 360-day "prophetic" years.
Scripture does indicate that the 70 weeks began with the decree of
Cyrus, and that the Messiah would appear at the end of the first two
sections. If the units of the first two sections are all regular
years, the prophecy would predict the coming of Christ 483 years after
the decree of Cyrus, which works out to 55 BC. In that case, the
prophecy fails. But it is their interpretation that fails!
Dispensationalists point to some event, after the decree of Cyrus,
such as a letter, or a conversation with an official person, etc,.
that they claim began the 70 weeks prophecy. They begin dating the
prophecy from the supposed dates of orders issued by various officials
in the decades following Cyrus, that were intended to support and
implement the original decree. And they have proposed a special sort
of "prophetic year" of 360 days, that they use for their calculation
of the 70 weeks. But such theories are flawed, as they are based on
mistaken premises.
A much simpler approach, is to count from the decree of Cyrus, and use
different units in the first section of 7 weeks. The units for the 7
weeks can be leap years, that is, years having 13 months. There are
seven such years in 19 years. So the first 7 weeks span 7 x 19 = 133
years. The second section can be taken as 62 sabbatical cycles of 7
years each. This section spans 434 years, and 133 + 434 = 567 years.
The period from the decree of Cyrus in 538 BC to the beginning of the
ministry of Jesus, 28 AD was 567 years. Thus the prophecy works out
correctly.
The period of 1,290 days conforms to a "time, times and a half," where
the first year is a year of 13 months, and the rest are regular years
of 12 months, and months are 30 days.
1,290 days = 13 x 30 + 2 x 12 x 30 + 12 x 30 / 2
The 1,335 days is similar, but the first year is a regular year of 12
months, and the rest are leap years of 13 months, and months are 30 days.
1,335 days = 12 x 30 + 2 x 13 x 30 + 13 x 30 / 2
These patterns suggest that the 70 weeks also involve leap years. The
prophecy works out correctly when leap years are used in the first
section of 7 weeks.
>
> If I understand correctly, you believe that the sacrifice (Daniel
> 9:27) ceases because Jesus Christ replaced the need for animal
> sacrifices at/with his death.
>
>
> Daniel 9
>
> 24Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city,
> to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make
> reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting
> righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint
> the most Holy.
>
> 25Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the
> commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the
> Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street
> shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
>
> 26And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but
> not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall
> destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with
> a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
>
> 27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in
> the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to
> cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it
> desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be
> poured upon the desolate.
>
> Verses 26 and 27 above seem to say the sacrifices end because the city
> and sanctuary are destroyed.
But, which city does it refer to? In the New Testament, Jerusalem is
in heaven.
What is "the glorious holy mountain"? Hebrews 12:22-23 says:
Hebrews 12
But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God,
the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written
in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men
made perfect,
And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of
sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
Is it the church? Is it the kingdom of Christ, the "mount Sion" to
which those who believe in Christ have come?
What has caused the desolation of the church, and scattered the saints
among tens of thousands of denominations?
John said the antichrist spirit was already at work in his day.
1 John 2:18
Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that
antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we
know that it is the last time.
The "last time," he said, had already begun; it was the "time, times
and a half," that Daniel had spoken of.
The periods mentioned, 1,290 days, and 1,335 days, are given by an
angel, and so would not be regular earth days. Notice the units of the
writing on the wall in Daniel 5:25; the words signify units of
currency, the mine, shekel, and peres or half-mina. There were two
mine, one peres or half-mine, and a shekel.
From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_writing_on_the_wall
Although usually left untranslated in English translations of Daniel,
these words are known Aramaic names of measures of currency: MENE, a
mina (from the root meaning "to count"), TEKEL, a spelling of shekel
(from the root meaning "to weigh"), PERES, half a mina (from the root
meaning "to divide", but additionally resembling the word for "Persia").
Do you see a pattern in those words, that corresponds to the pattern
in the "time, times and a half"?
The numbers given to Daniel, 1,290 days and 1,335 days, are symbolic.
They fit a pattern of "a time, times and a half" where the first year
differs from the rest. I suggest these are symbolic periods, like the
1,260 days of Revelation 11:3 & 12:6, that refer to the whole time of
the church, which is the final half-week of the 70 weeks.
Doug
> On Jan 18, 12:21 pm, Pastor Dave<newsgroup-mail @ tampabay.rr.com>
> wrote:
>> On Tue, 18 Jan 2011 03:21:38 -0800 (PST), Abrams1117
>> <John1...@peoplepc.com> spake thusly:
>>
>> Somehow, I caught this message, so I will respond.
>>
>> But before beginning, let me state that what I am
>> saying, is always the following three things:
>>
>> 1) Jesus returned at the desolation of Jerusalem
>> and the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD.
>
> Cannot be.
>
> Zechariah says he destroys the nations attacking Jerusalem not uses
> them to do the attacking:
>
>
> Zechariah 12:
>
> 8In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and
> he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the
> house of David shall be as G-D, as the angel of the LORD before them.
>
> 9And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy
> all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
Misguided Jews of the first century who supposed that the prophecy of
Zechariah 12:9 applied to the earthly Jerusalem, when it was under
siege by the Roman legions, would have been terribly disappointed, as
God did not fight on their behalf in those days.
But, if the "Jerusalem" Zechariah's prophecy refers to is the heavenly
one, God does fight against his spiritual enemies. The flawed
interpretations such as dispensationalism, and preterism, and many
other "isms," are among those armies!
>
>>
>> 2) This did not occur within Daniel's 70 weeks.
>
> Then the 70th week according to you must have a gap.
>
> The destruction of Jerusalem is found in those prophecies:
>
> Daniel 9:
>
> 24Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy
> city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to
> make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting
> righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint
> the most Holy.
>
> 25Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the
> commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the
> Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street
> shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
>
> 26And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but
> not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall
> destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with
> a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
>
> 27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in
> the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to
> cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it
> desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be
> poured upon the desolate.
Much of the prophecy refers to things that affect the heavenly
Jerusalem, the church, which has suffered a "flood" of false teachings
and flawed interpretations. This is the "flood from the mouth of the
serpent," in Revelation 12.
Revelation 12:15-16
And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the
woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and
swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
How does the earth open its mouth? The word "earth" in the Greek is
the same as "land" and no doubt alludes to the promised land. It is
not the literal territory of Canaan, but the spiritual and eternal
things promised to the saints. One of these promises was that the
Spirit would guide the church into the truth. [John 16:13] It is the
truth which swallows up the serpent's flood!
Christ confirms his covenant with the saints for one week; the week
began, when he began his ministry among the Jews, 28 AD, and continues
to the present time. It includes a symbolic half-week, that represents
the entire age of the church.
Yes, I say the events following the 69th week, when Jesus began his
ministry, all happened in the 70th week, which continues to the end of
the age.
>
>> No, since even in this very message you
>> misrepresented what I have said and I was quite
>> clear about what I said and made it clear repeatedly
>> and you have done this to me every time!
>
> If it were clear it could not be misunderstood.
>
>>
>>> Now, you need to prove a timeline that ends in
>>> A.D. 70 or say that the destruction of Jerusalem
>>> happened outside of the 70th week.
>>
>> It did happen outside of the 70th week. But before
>> you jump to conclusions, as you always do, that does
>> not mean that I am saying that the 70 weeks were
>> not consecutive.
>>
>> I will say it again, because even when I say it,
>> you refuse to comprehend it.
>>
>> THAT DOES NOT MEAN THAT I AM SAYING THAT
>> THE 70 WEEKS WERE NOT CONSECUTIVE!!!
>
> Then any part of the prophecy can be excluded form the timeline of 70
> weeks. Which was a point I was making, thanks. Jesus Christ was killed
> after the 69th week but not during the 70th week.
That's your view of it; however, I do not share that view; Jesus
"confirms the covenant with many for one week" which he did by
fulfilling the prophecies about himself, and by his death on the cross
to take away the sin of the world. Paul said, "Now I say that Jesus
Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to
confirm the promises made unto the fathers:" [Romans 15:8] Confirming
the promises is what the gospel is about.
>
>>
>>>> The start of the 70th week was in 28 AD
>>>> and the ministry of Jesus was the first half
>>>> of the 70th week; the last half is the continuing
>>>> ministry of Christ by the Spirit that he sends to
>>>> the Church. Since Jesus ascended to heaven,
>>>> the final half-week applies to the heavenly city.
>>
>>> You want to insist that there can be no gap in
>>> the prophecy. And that each week has the very
>>> same number of years. Then you want to take
>>> part of one week and stretch it into thousands
>>> of years. I see nothing in prophecy that can
>>> even suggest this.
>>
>> And yet, you have no problem stretching the whole
>> week "thousands of years". And that is what makes
>> you a hypocrite! You constantly rail against other
>> people for committing smaller versions of the same
>> faux pas that you commit!
>
> Doug stretches the week. I'm saying that each event is described and
> the duration of that event. But, they are not consecutive. The proof
> is the destruction of Jerusalem as you seem to agree. And before you
> fly off the handle, again, I know what you mean, and what I mean.
The prophet Elijah "stretched" the oil and the barrel of meal in the
house of the woman of Zarephath in the country Sidon. The ministry of
Elijah was a type of the ministry of the Spirit in the church. The
three years and a half of famine were a type of the whole age of the
church. See Malachi 4:5.
>>
>> You constantly say how wrong it is to add a gap and
>> then you insert a gap that is about 50 times longer!
>
> I said it is wrong to have a gap? The prophecy puts the gap by adding
> events from A.D. 70.
No, there is no example in the Bible, that I know of, were a time
period has a "gap." That is a human device. Rather, scripture
indicates that time would be continuous. [Genesis 8:22]
>
>
>>
>>> And since Jerusalem was destroyed in A.D. 70
>>> and this event is in the prophecies there 'is a gap'
>>> there. You prefer to make it a stretch.
>>
>> No, that does not mean that there is a gap there.
>>
>> And once again, you look down your nose at him
>> for "creating a gap of 37 years" and yet, you create
>> a gap of thousands of years! So who the Hell are
>> you, to be pointing your finger at anyone, pal?!
>>
>
> Learn to read between your judging and cursing sometimes.
>
> Who? Doug? His last week is over 2,000 years long - he stretches it.
Since time has no gaps, and Christ continues to confirm his covenant,
the last "week" of the 70 week continues. Those who invoke a gap
follow other men, who proposed a gap, such as John N. Darby, Wm.
Kelly, Cyrus I. Scofield, and others.
When was the earthly Jerusalem under a flood? The prophecy can hardly
apply to the earthly city, but does apply to the heavenly one, which
has suffered from a "flood" of flawed interpretations, especially
concerning Daniel's prophecy of the 70 weeks. Classical
dispensationalism, Revised dispensationalism, Progressive
dispensationalism, Ultra-dispensationalism, Mid-Acts
dispensationalism, Partial preterism, Hyper-preterism, etc., to name a
few.
--
Doug
Corey
No, thank you.
@tampabay.rr.com Pastor Dave
<John...@peoplepc.com> spake thusly:
> Pastor Dave wrote:
>
>> Abrams1117 spake thusly:
>>
>> Somehow, I caught this message, so I will respond.
>>
>> But before beginning, let me state that what I am
>> saying, is always the following three things:
>>
>> 1) Jesus returned at the desolation of Jerusalem
>> and the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD.
>
> Cannot be.
You did not even read through the message.
The point of my response was not to argue
with you about who's right, but to show you
that your claim that there must be a gap
being stated by the person who believes
that Jesus returned in 70 AD is incorrect.
Had you read the entire message first,
then you would have known that.
Of course, you probably wouldn't have
cared anyway. (:
>> 3) Daniel's 70 weeks were consecutive.
>
> Consecutive from A.D. 70 back to when?
See what I mean? Don't bother denying that
you didn't read the whole message through
before responding! This proves that you didn't,
since I THOROUGHLY EXPLAINED further down
why the count does not need to reach to 70 AD!
See below.
Now let's note that there was no response at all from you
about the section quoted above, which is the section which
explains how it is that the weeks are consecutive without
any gap being required between the 69th and 70th weeks,
except that which you say in your next message, which
does not deal with my point, but rather, just says I'm wrong
and then goes on to claim you're right and ignores the very
words that I pointed out to you.
That is because you had absolutely no interest in understanding
this, because your one and only goal is to tell the lie that there
must be a gap in everyone's belief and that I have said that
there is one, both of which are false.
And you wonder why I call you dishonest?! All you did was
to ignore the words, such as with the following:
>> So according to what the Bible says, the only thing that
>> happens during the 70 weeks, is that the "desolations"
>> that the "Prince that shall come" "shall do", are merely
>> "determined" to happen!
>
> SHALL: BE CUT OFF - DESTROY THE CITY THESE EVENTS
> -SHALL- HAPPEN.
No, it does not say that! I showed you how it clearly says
that the desolations are what are "determined" and that's
all it says about the desolations within the 70 weeks!
It does not say that "the city is cut off", it clearly says that
"the Messiah is cut off" and that happens in the middle of
the 70th week, when He is crucified!
You may not want to accept that. You may believe differently.
But I did not respond to argue with you about who's right
between us, but only to say that it does not state that the
desolations must happen within the 70th week and no gap
is needed, just because you claim that one is!
You want to force people to prove you're wrong, by first
accepting your view of the 70 weeks and saying you're
right and that is imply a ridiculous requirement!
It doesn't even occur to you that there might be a different
way of looking at it, because you are too full of yourself!
So full of yourself, that you cannot even conceive of the
fact that you can logically state that something explains
the person's point of view on a Scripture, without your
agreement with them that it is the correct view!
I can thank someone for explaining their view and I can
tell them that their explanation has clarified their view
for me. And I can then go on to say that while I now
see why they believe what they do and understand
their approach, I do not agree with it.
You Futurists are so full of yourself and so indoctrinated
into your belief systems, that you cannot even conceive
of a possibility like this!
And no, I am not saying that is true of my view about
your claims about the 70 weeks, since as you are famous
for doing, you again add words into statements in v26,
as you did above, when you claimed that the sentence
says that the city would be cut off and that it happens
within the 70 weeks, when it doesn't say either!
"And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah
be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of
the prince that shall come shall destroy the city
and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be
with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations
are determined."
Now what does it say is "determined" there?
The desolations!
And what does "determined" mean?
That it was decided at that point that they would happen,
which is entirely different from deciding that they would
happen at that point!
> You simply remove the destruction from the prophecy itself.
No, I do not! The desolation is stated within the prophecy!
It simply does not say that the desolation event was to occur
within those 70 weeks! It says that they are determined to
happen! The determination itself is what it says happened!
"...and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto
the end of the war desolations are determined."
It says, "DESOLATIONS ARE DETERMINED"! And that
they are determined unto the end of the war, not that
the war happens within the 70 weeks. The only thing
included within the 70 weeks is the determination.
You can try to change that wording all you want,
but it won't affect the truth!
It says, "desolations are DETERMINED"!
As for what must happen within the 70 weeks, it is
very clear as to what must happen within the weeks.
Daniel gives us a list:
"Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people
and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression
and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation
for iniquity and to bring in everlasting righteousness
and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint
the most Holy." - Daniel 9:24
In the same way that it says that "seventy weeks
are determined" because they didn't happen yet
at the time Daniel said that, the war was "determined"
within the 70 weeks, not having taken place within
the 70 weeks.
Now what it says must happen within the 70 weeks is:
To finish the transgression.
To make an end of sins.
To make reconciliation for iniquity.
To bring in everlasting righteousness.
To seal up the vision and prophecy.
To anoint the most Holy.
That is the complete list, right from the prophecy itself!
Now where is "to go to war" in that list?!
--
Pastor Dave
"Read not to contradict and confute, nor to find talk
and discourse, but to weigh and consider."
-Sir Francis Bacon
@tampabay.rr.com Pastor Dave
>Abrams1117 wrote:
>
>> On Jan 18, 12:21 pm, Pastor Dave<newsgroup-mail @ tampabay.rr.com>
>> wrote:
>>> On Tue, 18 Jan 2011 03:21:38 -0800 (PST), Abrams1117
>>> <John1...@peoplepc.com> spake thusly:
>>>
>>> Somehow, I caught this message, so I will respond.
>>>
>>> But before beginning, let me state that what I am
>>> saying, is always the following three things:
>>>
>>> 1) Jesus returned at the desolation of Jerusalem
>>> and the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD.
>>
>> Cannot be.
>>
>> Zechariah says he destroys the nations attacking Jerusalem not uses
>> them to do the attacking:
>>
>>
>> Zechariah 12:
>>
>> 8In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and
>> he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the
>> house of David shall be as G-D, as the angel of the LORD before them.
>>
>> 9And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy
>> all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
>
>Misguided Jews of the first century who supposed that the prophecy of
>Zechariah 12:9 applied to the earthly Jerusalem, when it was under
>siege by the Roman legions, would have been terribly disappointed, as
>God did not fight on their behalf in those days.
Um, actually He did. But it was to come after
they were desolated, as it says. But as any
Roman historian can tell you, the fall of Rom
began with the Jewish War.
--
Pastor Dave
"Weakness of faith ought not be mistaken for falseness
of promise." - Unknown
@tampabay.rr.com Pastor Dave
>Christ confirms his covenant with the saints for one week; the week
>began, when he began his ministry among the Jews, 28 AD, and continues
>to the present time. It includes a symbolic half-week, that represents
>the entire age of the church.
Oh, that's right. I forgot. You're the nut
who makes it sound like he believes it's
70 weeks and then spiritualizes the last
half of the last week and tries to stretch
it out for thousands of years.
The truth is, you treat the Scripture like
it's made of putty and it is completely
disingenuous to pretend that you hold
to a literalistic view of the 70 weeks
being 70 weeks of 7 years each week
and then play Silly Putty with the last
half of the last week and try to stretch
a generation out for thousands of years,
simply because I showed you that it was
supposed to happen within that same
generation.
And now I will say to both you and Abrams...
You think that I am just being insulting when
I state that Futurists invent crap on the fly
and will believe any nutty thing when it comes
to keeping their doctrine and refusing to place
Scripture above it!
Well, HERE IT IS FOLKS!!! A guy who does
as I described above! And why does he do it?
Because he was shown that he cannot make
the time statements of the NT go away!
He was honest enough to recognize that,
but then went completely dishonest by
inventing this crap to avoid admitting it!
Goodbye again, Doug! One cannot debate
an issue with a man who has a clock made
out of Silly Putty!
--
Pastor Dave
The Last Days were in the first century:
"For yet, A LITTLE WHILE, and He that shall come
will come, and WILL NOT TARRY. - Hebrews 10:37
Doug
Hmm..
Zechariah 14:12
And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the
people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume
away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume
away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.
He smote the Romans who lived three of four centuries later?
Zechariah 14:15
And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel,
and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as
this plague.
And later generations of horse, camels, asses, and mules too? And no
one connected all those alleged diseased animals to the Jewish war,
except preterists? I wonder, what was the point of that?
--
Doug
Doug
> On Tue, 18 Jan 2011 14:09:52 -0500, Doug<t...@sentex.net> spake thusly:
>
>
>> Christ confirms his covenant with the saints for one week; the week
>> began, when he began his ministry among the Jews, 28 AD, and continues
>> to the present time. It includes a symbolic half-week, that represents
>> the entire age of the church.
>
> Oh, that's right. I forgot. You're the nut
> who makes it sound like he believes it's
> 70 weeks and then spiritualizes the last
> half of the last week and tries to stretch
> it out for thousands of years.
>
> The truth is, you treat the Scripture like
> it's made of putty and it is completely
> disingenuous to pretend that you hold
> to a literalistic view of the 70 weeks
> being 70 weeks of 7 years each week
For the record, that is not how I interpret the 70 weeks prophecy;
Pastor Dave has not been listening, or reading what I said. He
misrepresents what I did say. His accusations have no merit; he needs
to apologize.
In my interpretation, the first section of 7 weeks consists not of 7
year periods, but weeks of leap years having 13 months. They were
periods of 19 years, which is a "week" of leap years, and the 7 weeks
of leap years span 133 years. The next section is 62 sabbatical
cycles, that span 434 years. The 70 weeks began with the decree of
Cyrus, 538 BC, and the first two sections ended in 28 AD. That is when
Jesus began his ministry. So these two sections of the prophecy worked
out accurately in history.
The last section is the week in which Christ confirms his covenant
with many, and this refers to the gospel going to all the world. The
ministry of Jesus was the first half week, and the entire age of the
church is represented by the last half-week, also known as the "time,
times and a half," 1,260 days, and 42 months.
> and then play Silly Putty with the last
> half of the last week and try to stretch
> a generation out for thousands of years,
> simply because I showed you that it was
> supposed to happen within that same
> generation.
Preterists ignore the fact that Jesus Christ rose from the grave, and
remains alive, so his generation still exists! Shame on them!
They misunderstand what Jesus said, and base their entire system of
interpretation on the premise that all prophecy had to be fulfilled in
the first century! Of course, a system based on an untrue premise is
likely to collapse with a loud ((((( boom! )))))
>
> And now I will say to both you and Abrams...
>
> You think that I am just being insulting when
> I state that Futurists invent crap on the fly
> and will believe any nutty thing when it comes
> to keeping their doctrine and refusing to place
> Scripture above it!
>
> Well, HERE IT IS FOLKS!!! A guy who does
> as I described above! And why does he do it?
> Because he was shown that he cannot make
> the time statements of the NT go away!
>
> He was honest enough to recognize that,
> but then went completely dishonest by
> inventing this crap to avoid admitting it!
>
> Goodbye again, Doug! One cannot debate
> an issue with a man who has a clock made
> out of Silly Putty!
>
Dave re-inserts fingers in ears!
--
Doug
Abrams1117
I have always thought that they are each about different events. So,
the 62 weeks represents one series of events and the 7 weeks represent
different events and the last week again represents different events.
>
> The use of different units is indicated by the separation of the 70
> weeks into three sections, 7 weeks, 62 weeks, and one week.
>
> The units of the first section of 7 weeks differ from the units of the
> 2nd section of 62 weeks, and the final week, and failure to recognize
> this, and taking the units as all the same, leads to mistaken
> interpretations.
I do not see how the weeks themselves can be said to be different. How
can one week have one length of time and the next have a different
length of time?
>
> For example, many have claimed the units of all three sections are the
> same, and they are all weeks of years, or 70 x 7 years, which is 490
> years. But scripture does not tell us that. Neither does it say they
> are 360-day "prophetic" years.
>
> Scripture does indicate that the 70 weeks began with the decree of
> Cyrus, and that the Messiah would appear at the end of the first two
> sections.
I disagree about Cyrus, yes he was mentioned, by name, 'hundreds' of
year before he was even born, but he never gave a command to rebuild
Jerusalem.
Cyrus did not give a command to restore Jerusalem.
Ezra 6:3:
In the first year of Cyrus the king the same Cyrus the king made a
decree concerning the house of G-D at Jerusalem, Let the house be
builded, the place where they offered sacrifices, and let the
foundations thereof be strongly laid; the height thereof threescore
cubits, and the breadth thereof threescore cubits;
The Messiah of Daniel 9:26
Daniel 9:25 says it would be 69 weeks from the command to restore the
city of Jerusalem to the Messiah.
Daniel 9:25:
Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the
commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the
Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street
shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
Cyrus never gave this command.
Almighty G-D called Cyrus his shepherd 150 years before Cyrus’ birth.
Isaiah 44:21-28:
44:21: Remember these, O Jacob and Israel; for thou art my servant: I
have formed thee; thou art my servant: O Israel, thou shalt not be
forgotten of me.
44:22: I have blotted out, as a thick cloud, thy transgressions, and,
as a cloud, thy sins: return unto me; for I have redeemed thee.
44:23: Sing, O ye heavens; for the LORD hath done it: shout, ye lower
parts of the earth: break forth into singing, ye mountains, O forest,
and every tree therein: for the LORD hath redeemed Jacob, and
glorified himself in Israel.
44:24: Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from
the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth
the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;
44:25: That frustrateth the tokens of the liars, and maketh diviners
mad; that turneth wise men backward, and maketh their knowledge
foolish;
44:26: That confirmeth the word of his servant, and performeth the
counsel of his messengers; that saith to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be
inhabited; and to the cities of Judah, Ye shall be built, and I will
raise up the decayed places thereof:
44:27: That saith to the deep, Be dry, and I will dry up thy rivers:
44:28: That saith of Cyrus, He is my shepherd, and shall perform all
my pleasure: even saying to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be built; and to the
temple, Thy foundation shall be laid.
But, Cyrus never gave a command to re-build Jerusalem.
*******
Abrams1117
Obviously 55 B.C. is wrong. Why it is wrong is up for debate.
>
> > Dispensationalists point to some event, after the decree of Cyrus,
> > such as a letter, or a conversation with an official person, etc,.
> > that they claim began the 70 weeks prophecy. They begin dating the
> > prophecy from the supposed dates of orders issued by various officials
> > in the decades following Cyrus, that were intended to support and
> > implement the original decree. And they have proposed a special sort
> > of "prophetic year" of 360 days, that they use for their calculation
> > of the 70 weeks. But such theories are flawed, as they are based on
> > mistaken premises.
Says who? Or what? Actually they work out perfectly. And a time, times
and half a time along with 1,260 days etc., make the 360 day prophetic
year very logical - and the dates work out to perfection over the
centuries. It is quite amazing.
>
> > A much simpler approach, is to count from the decree of Cyrus, and use
> > different units in the first section of 7 weeks. The units for the 7
> > weeks can be leap years, that is, years having 13 months. There are
> > seven such years in 19 years. So the first 7 weeks span 7 x 19 = 133
> > years. The second section can be taken as 62 sabbatical cycles of 7
> > years each. This section spans 434 years, and 133 + 434 = 567 years.
> > The period from the decree of Cyrus in 538 BC to the beginning of the
> > ministry of Jesus, 28 AD was 567 years. Thus the prophecy works out
> > correctly.
And you simply leave out the prophecies about Jerusalem?
I think I see it now, everyone that wants to say the years are
consecutive simply ignores the prophecies about Jerusalem. Others want
to change the length of time of the weeks.
I prefer to say the weeks are the same and the events are what they
are - they happen during the weeks they are said to happen in and what
happens is what is written. People have a problem with this because
all of the events have not happened yet.
In the prophecies the city is the one where the sanctuary is located -
the sanctuary was in the Temple and the Temple was in the city of
Jerusalem.
There are many anti-Christs. But the last is the worst.
Doug
> On Jan 18, 3:23 pm, Doug<t...@sentex.net> wrote:
>> Abrams1117 wrote:
>>> On Jan 18, 9:21 am, Abrams1117<John1...@peoplepc.com> wrote:
<snip>
>>>> Now, you need to prove a timeline that ends in A.D. 70 or say that the
>>>> destruction of Jerusalem happened outside of the 70th week.
>>
>>>>> The start of the 70th week was in 28 AD, and the ministry of Jesus was
>>>>> the first half of the 70th week; the last half is the continuing
>>>>> ministry of Christ by the Spirit that he sends to the Church. Since
>>>>> Jesus ascended to heaven, the final half-week applies to the heavenly
>>>>> city.
>>
>>>> You want to insist that there can be no gap in the prophecy. And that
>>>> each week has the very same number of years. Then you want to take
>>>> part of one week and stretch it into thousands of years. I see nothing
>>>> in prophecy that can even suggest this.
>>
>> IMO, the 70 weeks prophecy itself requires that different units for
>> the various sections, or else, what need would there be for three
>> sections? Why not say, "sixty and nine weeks," instead of "seven
>> weeks, and threescore and two weeks"? It would be a lot more concise.
>
> I have always thought that they are each about different events. So,
> the 62 weeks represents one series of events and the 7 weeks represent
> different events and the last week again represents different events.
The prophecy does not say what the 7 weeks and 62 weeks represent.
AFAIK, there is nothing to indicate what event began the 62 weeks, or
when it may have occurred.
But, if the 62 weeks were sabbatical cycles of 7 years, that ended in
28 AD, when Christ began his ministry, the first section of the 70
weeks prophecy, the 7 weeks, ended in 407 BC. That began the 62 weeks.
See my 70 Weeks Calculator:
http://vinyl2.sentex.ca/~tcc/OP/calc70s.php
That date (407 BC) is 133 years from the decree of Cyrus, issued in
538 BC, and there were seven "weeks" of leap years, or 49 leap years
having an extra month, from the decree of Cyrus to 407 BC.
>>
>> The use of different units is indicated by the separation of the 70
>> weeks into three sections, 7 weeks, 62 weeks, and one week.
>>
>> The units of the first section of 7 weeks differ from the units of the
>> 2nd section of 62 weeks, and the final week, and failure to recognize
>> this, and taking the units as all the same, leads to mistaken
>> interpretations.
>
> I do not see how the weeks themselves can be said to be different. How
> can one week have one length of time and the next have a different
> length of time?
No units are mentioned. Nothing indicates the units are meant to be
the same in all three sections; that is merely a restriction imposed
by man, and by traditions of men. Certainly there is nothing to
indicate they are 360-day "years."
>
>>
>> For example, many have claimed the units of all three sections are the
>> same, and they are all weeks of years, or 70 x 7 years, which is 490
>> years. But scripture does not tell us that. Neither does it say they
>> are 360-day "prophetic" years.
>>
>> Scripture does indicate that the 70 weeks began with the decree of
>> Cyrus, and that the Messiah would appear at the end of the first two
>> sections.
>
> I disagree about Cyrus, yes he was mentioned, by name, 'hundreds' of
> year before he was even born, but he never gave a command to rebuild
> Jerusalem.
>
> Cyrus did not give a command to restore Jerusalem.
Maybe not; however just because it is not recorded, does not mean he
did not issue one. Isaiah said Cyrus would be the one to give the word
to build Jerusalem.
But Cyrus the Persian was only a type of the Messiah, who was to build
the eternal and heavenly Jerusalem, "not made with hands."
Acts 7:48
Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as
saith the prophet,
2 Corinthians 5:1
For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were
dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands,
eternal in the heavens.
Hebrews 9:24
For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which
are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in
the presence of God for us:
The kingdom of God is the stone cut out without hands in the dream of
Nebuchadnezzar, that Daniel interpreted.
Daniel 2:34
Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote
the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to
pieces.
--
Doug
Abrams1117
> Abrams1117 wrote:
> > On Jan 18, 12:21 pm, Pastor Dave<newsgroup-mail @ tampabay.rr.com>
> > wrote:
> >> On Tue, 18 Jan 2011 03:21:38 -0800 (PST), Abrams1117
> >> <John1...@peoplepc.com> spake thusly:
>
> >> Somehow, I caught this message, so I will respond.
>
> >> But before beginning, let me state that what I am
> >> saying, is always the following three things:
>
> >> 1) Jesus returned at the desolation of Jerusalem
> >> and the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD.
>
> > Cannot be.
>
> > Zechariah says he destroys the nations attacking Jerusalem not uses
> > them to do the attacking:
>
> > Zechariah 12:
>
> > 8In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and
> > he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the
> > house of David shall be as G-D, as the angel of the LORD before them.
>
> > 9And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy
> > all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
>
> Misguided Jews of the first century who supposed that the prophecy of
> Zechariah 12:9 applied to the earthly Jerusalem, when it was under
> siege by the Roman legions, would have been terribly disappointed, as
> God did not fight on their behalf in those days.
That is a good point that preterists ignore - Scripture says that G-D
will fight for Jerusalem and against the nations attacking it. This
not only proves that preterists are wrong but that A.D. 70 was not a
fulfillment of those very same prophecies.
> But, if the "Jerusalem" Zechariah's prophecy refers to is the heavenly
> one, God does fight against his spiritual enemies. The flawed
> interpretations such as dispensationalism, and preterism, and many
> other "isms," are among those armies!
Or, the prophecies haven't happened yet.
In Revelation a frog comes out of Satan's mouth and gathers armies and
sometimes in Scripture a flood means armies/troops.
>
> How does the earth open its mouth? The word "earth" in the Greek is
> the same as "land" and no doubt alludes to the promised land. It is
> not the literal territory of Canaan, but the spiritual and eternal
> things promised to the saints. One of these promises was that the
> Spirit would guide the church into the truth. [John 16:13] It is the
> truth which swallows up the serpent's flood!
A lot of guess work.
Only if it is about Jesus Christ and not about a covenant with Israel.
An attack by an army is sometimes called a flood, no?
Abrams1117
wrote:
> On Tue, 18 Jan 2011 06:48:26 -0800 (PST), Abrams1117
>
> > Pastor Dave wrote:
>
> >> Abrams1117 spake thusly:
>
> >> Somehow, I caught this message, so I will respond.
>
> >> But before beginning, let me state that what I am
> >> saying, is always the following three things:
>
> >> 1) Jesus returned at the desolation of Jerusalem
> >> and the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD.
>
> > Cannot be.
>
> You did not even read through the message.
>
> The point of my response was not to argue
> with you about who's right, but to show you
> that your claim that there must be a gap
> being stated by the person who believes
> that Jesus returned in 70 AD is incorrect.
>
> Had you read the entire message first,
> then you would have known that.
>
> Of course, you probably wouldn't have
> cared anyway. (:
>
> >> 3) Daniel's 70 weeks were consecutive.
>
> > Consecutive from A.D. 70 back to when?
>
> See what I mean? Don't bother denying that
> you didn't read the whole message through
> before responding!
Reading it is one thing and understanding it is another. If I had a
dollar for every time you misunderstood me I would buy an air
conditioner. (it is twice times seven times beyond hot here)
No, I went through all of it. I do not go through the entire post at
one time. I do not have time for that. I reply piecemeal.
But, again, for the umpteeth time, I do not see how anyone can say
this part applies to the 70 weeks and this other part in the very next
sentence does not. It does not make sense.
>
> That is because you had absolutely no interest in understanding
> this, because your one and only goal is to tell the lie that there
> must be a gap in everyone's belief and that I have said that
> there is one, both of which are false.
You ppl say there is no gap then you use these very same prophecies to
claim that prophecy was fulfilled. Now that is creative.
>
> And you wonder why I call you dishonest?! All you did was
> to ignore the words, such as with the following:
>
> >> So according to what the Bible says, the only thing that
> >> happens during the 70 weeks, is that the "desolations"
> >> that the "Prince that shall come" "shall do", are merely
> >> "determined" to happen!
>
> > SHALL: BE CUT OFF - DESTROY THE CITY THESE EVENTS
> > -SHALL- HAPPEN.
>
> No, it does not say that! I showed you how it clearly says
> that the desolations are what are "determined" and that's
> all it says about the desolations within the 70 weeks!
No, it says:
WHEN?:
1)after threescore and two weeks
WHAT HAPPENS?:
1)shall Messiah be cut off
2)the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and
the sanctuary
26And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but
not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall
destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with
a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
You cannot simply say the first happens here and the second happens
much later, simply to uphold you doctrine.
I have got to super run.........
*****
27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in
the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to
cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it
desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be
poured upon the desolate.
>
Doug
The Jerusalem of Zechariah 12:8 is the church, the heavenly Jerusalem.
God did not defend the earthly Jerusalem from the Romans, but he does
defend the heavenly Jerusalem. It is also called the house of David,
in Acts 15:16.
Zechariah 12:8-10
In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he
that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house
of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.
And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all
the nations that come against Jerusalem.
And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of
Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall
look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as
one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as
one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
Verse 10 refers to Christ, who was pierced on the cross.
Revelation 1:7
Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they
also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail
because of him. Even so, Amen.
Christ "coming with clouds" could refer to clouds of
"witnesses."[Hebrews 12:1]
Zechariah 9:12 was fulfilled when Jesus rode into Jerusalem:
Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem:
behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation;
lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.
>
>
>> But, if the "Jerusalem" Zechariah's prophecy refers to is the heavenly
>> one, God does fight against his spiritual enemies. The flawed
>> interpretations such as dispensationalism, and preterism, and many
>> other "isms," are among those armies!
>
> Or, the prophecies haven't happened yet.
Paul said, "For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so
cometh as a thief in the night." [1 Thessalonians 5:2]
A thief comes and leaves with his loot, before anyone is awake; the
victims may not be aware they were robbed.
That is how prophecy works.
Dispensationalists say it is all for a future 7 years; Preterists say
it was all fulfilled in the first century. They deceive many, who may
find out some day.
This describes an information flood, a flood of flawed interpretations
and delusions. Jesus said, "For there shall arise false Christs, and
false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that,
if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect." [Matthew 24:24]
The woman represents the church, whose members are scattered around
the earth. The serpent's flood threatens the survival of the woman.
However, feel free to post your interpretation of the earth opening
its mouth and swallowing up the flood.
<snip>
>>
>>
>>>>> And since Jerusalem was destroyed in A.D. 70
>>>>> and this event is in the prophecies there 'is a gap'
>>>>> there. You prefer to make it a stretch.
>>
>>>> No, that does not mean that there is a gap there.
>>
>>>> And once again, you look down your nose at him
>>>> for "creating a gap of 37 years" and yet, you create
>>>> a gap of thousands of years! So who the Hell are
>>>> you, to be pointing your finger at anyone, pal?!
>>
>>> Learn to read between your judging and cursing sometimes.
>>
>>> Who? Doug? His last week is over 2,000 years long - he stretches it.
>>
>> Since time has no gaps, and Christ continues to confirm his covenant,
>> the last "week" of the 70 week continues. Those who invoke a gap
>> follow other men, who proposed a gap, such as John N. Darby, Wm.
>> Kelly, Cyrus I. Scofield, and others.
>
> Only if it is about Jesus Christ and not about a covenant with Israel.
It is about Jesus and his covenant, which Paul called the gospel,
Galatians 3:8.
<snip>
>>
>>> Jerusalem destroyed in A.D. 70 AFTER THE 69TH WEEK:
>>
>>> 26And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not
>>> for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall
>>> destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with
>>> a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
>>
>>> This means?: GAP.
>>
>> When was the earthly Jerusalem under a flood? The prophecy can hardly
>> apply to the earthly city, but does apply to the heavenly one, which
>> has suffered from a "flood" of flawed interpretations, especially
>> concerning Daniel's prophecy of the 70 weeks. Classical
>> dispensationalism, Revised dispensationalism, Progressive
>> dispensationalism, Ultra-dispensationalism, Mid-Acts
>> dispensationalism, Partial preterism, Hyper-preterism, etc., to name a
>> few.
>
> An attack by an army is sometimes called a flood, no?
Wicked men are compared to a "troubled sea," Isaiah 57:20.
"But the wicked are like the troubled sea, when it cannot rest, whose
waters cast up mire and dirt."
2 Samuel 22:5 refers to "floods of ungodly men."
Psalm 94 refers to floods having a "voice" which seems to allude to
the "noise" of the wicked.
Psalm 93:2-4
Thy throne is established of old: thou art from everlasting.
The floods have lifted up, O LORD, the floods have lifted up their
voice; the floods lift up their waves.
The LORD on high is mightier than the noise of many waters, yea, than
the mighty waves of the sea.
They generate false doctrines, and flawed interpretations of
scripture. Daniel said, "none of the wicked shall understand; but the
wise shall understand." [Daniel 12:10]
Not understanding does not keep them from making noise and writing
nonsense.
--
Doug
@tampabay.rr.com Pastor Dave
<John...@peoplepc.com> spake thusly:
>> Misguided Jews of the first century who supposed that the prophecy of
>> Zechariah 12:9 applied to the earthly Jerusalem, when it was under
>> siege by the Roman legions, would have been terribly disappointed, as
>> God did not fight on their behalf in those days.
>
>That is a good point that preterists ignore - Scripture says that G-D
>will fight for Jerusalem and against the nations attacking it. This
>not only proves that preterists are wrong but that A.D. 70 was not a
>fulfillment of those very same prophecies.
What is ignored, is my statements about everything by you.
I have explained this three times already, including right
here in this thread. You ignore that and then claim this
proves I'm wrong.
--
Pastor Dave
You're only as sick as your secrets.
@tampabay.rr.com Pastor Dave
<John...@peoplepc.com> spake thusly:
> (it is twice times seven times beyond hot here).
You said what you said.
>>> SHALL: BE CUT OFF - DESTROY THE CITY THESE EVENTS
>>> -SHALL- HAPPEN.
>>
>> No, it does not say that! I showed you how it clearly says
>> that the desolations are what are "determined" and that's
>> all it says about the desolations within the 70 weeks!
>
> No, it says:
>
> WHEN?:
>
> 1) After threescore and two weeks.
>
> WHAT HAPPENS?:
Lots of things. But as far as the desolation of Jerusalem
is concerned, it only says that desolations are determined
within the 70 weeks. The determination is what happens
within the 70 weeks.
What Daniel said must happen within the 70 weeks
in the Scripture itself, is as follows:
To finish the transgression.
To make an end of sins.
To make reconciliation for iniquity.
To bring in everlasting righteousness.
To seal up the vision and prophecy.
To anoint the most Holy.
That is the complete list, right from the prophecy itself!
Now where is "to go to war" in that list?
--
Pastor Dave
"I tore myself away from the safe comfort of certainties
through my love for the truth; and truth rewarded me."
-Simone de Beauvoir
Doug
What about, "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:
and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the
oblation to cease"?
That also has to be included.
Daniel said Christ would confirm the covenant; Preterism says he
abolished it!
Paul said, "Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the
circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto
the fathers:" [Romans 15:8]
>
> Now where is "to go to war" in that list?
>
Christ makes war with spiritual enemies which have taken the saints
captive, and seduced and robbed them of their spiritual inheritance.
That's what Zechariah's prophecy was about:
Zechariah 14:1-3
Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in
the midst of thee.
For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the
city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished;
and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of
the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when
he fought in the day of battle.
Fighting those enemies, which, IMO, include flawed interpretations
such as Preterism and Dispensationalism, is included in "confirming
the covenant."
--
Doug
Doug
True.
>
>>
>> That is because you had absolutely no interest in understanding
>> this, because your one and only goal is to tell the lie that there
>> must be a gap in everyone's belief and that I have said that
>> there is one, both of which are false.
>
> You ppl say there is no gap then you use these very same prophecies to
> claim that prophecy was fulfilled. Now that is creative.
To insert a gap is destructive.
To claim that the prophecy is fulfilled is also destructive.
>
>>
>> And you wonder why I call you dishonest?! All you did was
>> to ignore the words, such as with the following:
>>
>>>> So according to what the Bible says, the only thing that
>>>> happens during the 70 weeks, is that the "desolations"
>>>> that the "Prince that shall come" "shall do", are merely
>>>> "determined" to happen!
>>
>>> SHALL: BE CUT OFF - DESTROY THE CITY THESE EVENTS
>>> -SHALL- HAPPEN.
>>
>> No, it does not say that! I showed you how it clearly says
>> that the desolations are what are "determined" and that's
>> all it says about the desolations within the 70 weeks!
>
> No, it says:
>
> WHEN?:
>
> 1)after threescore and two weeks
That would be in the 70th week. Most of the events that Daniel
mentioned are in the 70th week. But it is not referring to some seven
year period in the future. The destruction of the city and temple
occurred in the 70th week. Ending of sacrifices was "in the midst" of
the 70th week. It extends over an extended period of time, including
the present, as Christ still "confirms the covenant" with his saints,
by leading us to the truth.
>
> WHAT HAPPENS?:
>
> 1)shall Messiah be cut off
>
> 2)the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and
> the sanctuary
>
> 26And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but
> not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall
> destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with
> a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
>
> You cannot simply say the first happens here and the second happens
> much later, simply to uphold you doctrine.
Well, you can't say it means "360 day years," simply to uphold you
doctrine.
>
> I have got to super run.........
>
>
> *****
>
>
>
> 27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in
> the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to
> cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it
> desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be
> poured upon the desolate.
"In the midst of the week" shows that there was no gap; the 70th week
followed the 69th just as one would expect. The ministry of Jesus was
the first half of the 70th week; the last half-week applies to a
heavenly city, as Christ ascended to heaven after the resurrection. In
the heavenly city, the time span of the final half-week is not
reckoned or determined by earth days, or earth months or earth years.
Peter said, "But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one
day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one
day." [2 Peter 3:8] The last half-week is the "time, times and a half"
when the saints are dominated by a "little horn" of the beast,
described in ch. 7. It has "eyes like the eyes of a man," which
represents all sorts of human viewpoints, rather than a divine one.
Among them are preterism, hyper-preterism, "trans-millennialism" (TM),
classical dispensationalism, revised dispensationalism, progressive
dispensationalism, ultra-dispensationalism, Mid-Acts
dispensationalism, etc. along with many other "isms."
Daniel said the "little horn" would "think to change times and laws."
Both preterism and dispensationalism misinterpret the "time, times and
a half" mentioned in the same verse. [Daniel 7:25]
--
Doug
Doug
Earlier Dave claimed that the "fall of Rome" fulfilled Zechariah's
prophecy, suggesting that Rome's decline and fall began in 70 AD. In
Message-ID: <o0vbj6d8cq2huro8o...@4ax.com> he wrote:
> Um, actually He did. But it was to come after
> they were desolated, as it says. But as any
> Roman historian can tell you, the fall of Rom
> began with the Jewish War.
Wikipedia says:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decline_of_the_Roman_Empire
<quote>
This slow decline occurred over a period of roughly 320 years,
culminating on September 4, 476, when Romulus Augustus, the last
Emperor of the Western Roman Empire, was deposed by Odoacer, a
Germanic chieftain.
</quote>
The period of decline did not begin with 70 AD as Dave suggests, but
in the second half of the 2nd century. Hmm.. Maybe he meant the Jewish
War in the time of Hadrian?
--
Doug
Abrams1117
wrote:
> On Wed, 19 Jan 2011 09:09:02 -0800 (PST), Abrams1117
>
> >> Misguided Jews of the first century who supposed that the prophecy of
> >> Zechariah 12:9 applied to the earthly Jerusalem, when it was under
> >> siege by the Roman legions, would have been terribly disappointed, as
> >> God did not fight on their behalf in those days.
>
> >That is a good point that preterists ignore - Scripture says that G-D
> >will fight for Jerusalem and against the nations attacking it. This
> >not only proves that preterists are wrong but that A.D. 70 was not a
> >fulfillment of those very same prophecies.
>
> What is ignored, is my statements about everything by you.
> I have explained this three times already, including right
> here in this thread. You ignore that and then claim this
> proves I'm wrong.
Scripture says the Lord fights against the armies attacking
Jerusalem. Preterists change this to mean the Lord uses them to
destroy Jerusalem and then destroys Rome over a period of hundreds of
years.
Doug
But, Rome is not destroyed; it still exists! When God wages war, it is
not a war of flesh and blood. His "sword" is his word. [Hebrews 4:12;
Revelation 1:16; 2:16; 19:15, 21]
--
Doug
Abrams1117
I know someone who lives in Rome. It is a city today, but, the Roman
Empire no longer exists.
> --
> Doug
>
> http://www.sentex.net/~tcc/
@tampabay.rr.com Pastor Dave
<John...@peoplepc.com> spake thusly:
You can claim that Preterists "change it" all you want.
The truth is, that any Roman historian will tell you
that the fall of Rome specifically began during the
Jewish War.
But you go ahead and invent up your newspaper
prophecies and claim you're being dedicated to
what the Bible says about it.
--
Pastor Dave
"For the day is near, even the day of the Lord is near,
a cloudy day; it shall be the time of the heathen. And
the sword shall come upon Egypt, and great pain shall
be in Ethiopia, when the slain shall fall in Egypt, and
they shall take away her multitude, and her foundations
shall be broken down." - Ezekiel 30:3-4 (prophecy about
Egypt, fulfilled in 480 B.C.)
Abrams1117
wrote:
> On Thu, 20 Jan 2011 05:59:11 -0800 (PST), Abrams1117
That darn Bible !
Zechariah 14
1Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided
in the midst of thee.
2For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the
city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished;
and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of
the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as
when he fought in the day of battle.
What will happen?!:
Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as
when he fought in the day of battle.
When does the Lord fight against those nations?!:
2For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the
city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished;
and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of
the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 -THEN- shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as
when he fought in the day of battle.
4And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which
is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave
in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there
shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove
toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of
the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye
fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah:
and the LORD my G-D shall come, and all the saints with thee.
6And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be
clear, nor dark:
7But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day,
nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be
light.
8And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from
Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward
the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall
there be one LORD, and his name one.
10All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south
of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place,
from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner
gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.
11And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter
destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.
What will the Lord do to the people that fought against Jerusalem?!:
12And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the
people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume
away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume
away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their
mouth.
And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the
people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume
away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume
away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their
mouth!
13And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the
LORD shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the
hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of
his neighbour.
14And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the
heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and
apparel, in great abundance.
15And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel,
and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as
this plague.
What will happen to the nations that fought against Jerusalem?:
16And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the
nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to
year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of
tabernacles.
They will do what?!: that every one that is left of all the nations
which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to
worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of
tabernacles!
What will happen to all the families of the Earth who do not worship
the Lord?
17And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of
the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even
upon them shall be no rain.
18And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no
rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the
heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all
nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
20In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS
UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD's house shall be like the
bowls before the altar.
21Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the
LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of
them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the
Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.
Yeah, those darn futurists not willing to re-write the entire Bible.
TSK-TSK, WHAT IS WRONG WITH THEM, HUH?
Believe G-D
For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the
city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished;
and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of
the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as
when he fought in the day of battle.
*******
Doug
> On Jan 20, 2:14 pm, Pastor Dave<newsgroup-mail @ tampabay.rr.com>
> wrote:
>> On Thu, 20 Jan 2011 05:59:11 -0800 (PST), Abrams1117
>> <John1...@peoplepc.com> spake thusly:
<snip>
>> You can claim that Preterists "change it" all you want.
>> The truth is, that any Roman historian will tell you
>> that the fall of Rome specifically began during the
>> Jewish War.
>>
>> But you go ahead and invent up your newspaper
>> prophecies and claim you're being dedicated to
>> what the Bible says about it.
>
> That darn Bible !
>
>
> Zechariah 14
>
> 1Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided
> in the midst of thee.
>
> 2For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the
> city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished;
> and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of
> the people shall not be cut off from the city.
>
> 3Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as
> when he fought in the day of battle.
All nations, come against Jerusalem? Hmm.. It is not the earthly city
that the nations come against, but the heavenly city, where Jesus
reigns. That's how a similar prophecy is interpreted in the New Testament.
Acts 4:26-28
The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together
against the Lord, and against his Christ.
For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed,
both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of
Israel, were gathered together,
For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be
done.
>
> What will happen?!:
>
> Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as
> when he fought in the day of battle.
>
> When does the Lord fight against those nations?!:
>
>
> 2For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the
> city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished;
> and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of
> the people shall not be cut off from the city.
> 3 -THEN- shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as
> when he fought in the day of battle.
>
>
> 4And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which
> is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave
> in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there
> shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove
> toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
Jesus stood on the mount of Olives, when he gave the Olivet Discourse.
And so, since mountains are often symbolic of God's revelations, as
for example in Galatians 4, where Sinai stands for the Mosaic
legislation, the mount of Olives represents the Olivet Discourse where
Jesus summarized many of the prophecies that outline the events of the
present age.
The Olivet Discourse has been "cleaved in the midst," and displaced to
the north and to the south, by the opposite interpretations of
preterism and dispensationalism!
> 5And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of
> the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye
> fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah:
> and the LORD my G-D shall come, and all the saints with thee.
Zechariah said to flee to the valley in between the two halves of the
mountain. Flee from preterism and dispensationalism! Jesus' prophecy
applies to the present age of the church, not to the Jews of the first
century, and not to Jews in a future seven year tribulation. The
church is the "Jerusalem" of Zechariah's prophecies, which God will
defend!
>
> 6And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be
> clear, nor dark:
>
> 7But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day,
> nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be
> light.
>
> 8And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from
> Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward
> the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
"Living waters," Jesus said, refer to the Spirit of God. They flow
from the saints, or the church, not from unbelieving Jews! This verse
proves the "Jerusalem" in this chapter is the heavenly one.
>
> 9And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall
> there be one LORD, and his name one.
>
> 10All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south
> of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place,
> from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner
> gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.
Zechariah said Jerusalem will be "lifted up," and Isaiah said the same
thing; the "mountain of the Lord's house" is to be exulted above the
hills. In the New Testament it is in heaven. So after Jesus was raised
up to heaven, most of the prophecies referring to Jerusalem apply to
the heavenly one, not the earthly one, which was a "shadow" or type of
the heavenly city.
>
> 11And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter
> destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.
>
> What will the Lord do to the people that fought against Jerusalem?!:
>
> 12And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the
> people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume
> away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume
> away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their
> mouth.
>
> And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the
> people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume
> away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume
> away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their
> mouth!
I suggest it is a spiritual plague; it affects their flesh; their
appearance is unattractive; and their "eyes," representing their
ability to understand spiritual things. Literalism often leads to
grotesque and absurd interpretations.
It affects the tongue, representing the things they say; they mutter
nonsense, or are unable to respond.
>
> 13And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the
> LORD shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the
> hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of
> his neighbour.
>
> 14And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the
> heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and
> apparel, in great abundance.
>
> 15And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel,
> and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as
> this plague.
Horses and mules represent people with no understanding, Psalm 32:9,
>
> What will happen to the nations that fought against Jerusalem?:
>
> 16And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the
> nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to
> year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of
> tabernacles.
>
> They will do what?!: that every one that is left of all the nations
> which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to
> worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of
> tabernacles!
Again, the feast is symbolic of the experience of the Israelites in
the wilderness. Tabernacles means tents or booths; the idea is that
humans are to become "tabernacles" of God's holy Spirit.
>
> What will happen to all the families of the Earth who do not worship
> the Lord?
>
> 17And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of
> the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even
> upon them shall be no rain.
Rain represents the Spirit of God. So, this fits in with the idea that
tabernacles represents.
>
> 18And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no
> rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the
> heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
>
> 19This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all
> nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
>
> 20In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS
> UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD's house shall be like the
> bowls before the altar.
>
> 21Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the
> LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of
> them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the
> Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.
Why no Canaanites? Is God a racist bigot? No, one of the disciples of
Jesus was a Canaanite. Zechariah's reference to a "Canaanite" refers
to an uncircumcised person; those included in the Lord's house are
called "the circumcision."
Philippians 3:3
For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and
rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
This is a spiritual concept, and it is a "circumcision made without
hands."
Colossians 2:11
In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without
hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the
circumcision of Christ:
--
Doug
@tampabay.rr.com Pastor Dave
<John...@peoplepc.com> spake thusly:
Please feel free to argue with yourself. I have explained
to you what it is I am saying. You, as you always do,
just ignore it and repeat the same diatribe.
--
Pastor Dave
The Last Days were in the first century:
Matthew 16:27-28
27) For the Son of man shall come in the glory
of his Father with his angels; and then he shall
reward every man according to his works.
28) Verily I say unto you, There be some standing
here, which shall not taste of death, till they
see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
Jesus said He would return within the lifetime
of the Apostles. We know this, because Jesus
said SOME (at least one, not not most) would
be alive when this happened.
This is not the Transfiguration. There was no
coming with the Father's angels and no judging
every man according to His works and they were
all still alive.
This is not Pentecost. There was no coming
with the Father's angels and no judging
every man according to His works and they
were all but one, still alive.
Now see a verse that no one argues is about
His Second Coming and see that this is what
Jesus was referring to, in Matthew 16:27-28.
"And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward
is with me, to give every man according as
his work shall be." - Revelation 22:12
Abrams1117
wrote:
> On Fri, 21 Jan 2011 05:43:25 -0800 (PST), Abrams1117
>
> Please feel free to argue with yourself. I have explained
> to you what it is I am saying. You, as you always do,
> just ignore it and repeat the same diatribe.
>
OK.
Jesus Christ never ever said that- ever. You have re-written the
Bible. Now go to the next chapter and read it. Does Scripture itself
specifically say they saw him coming in his kingdom when they saw that
vision? Yes or no? The answer is 100% yes. You will not answer this,
even after the many times over the many years I have asked you this
because it goes against your doctrine.
> This is not the Transfiguration. There was no
> coming with the Father's angels and no judging
> every man according to His works and they were
> all still alive.
WOW, WE HAVEN'T COVERED THIS VERY SAME GROUND OVER A HUNDRED TIMES
ALREADY? Let me say the same things again and you can ignore it
again. There is no belief in Scripture that can be supported based
upon those rules. If any thing is not mentioned it never happened?
Instead of using a false argument try believing the Bible. It says
they saw him coming in his kingdom when they saw the vision. Fact.
>
> This is not Pentecost. There was no coming
> with the Father's angels and no judging
> every man according to His works and they
> were all but one, still alive.
Only those who saw the vision saw him coming in his kingdom before
they died. All of the others died without seeing it.
>
> Now see a verse that no one argues is about
> His Second Coming and see that this is what
> Jesus was referring to, in Matthew 16:27-28.
>
> "And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward
> is with me, to give every man according as
> his work shall be." - Revelation 22:12
When he comes. That, the transfiguration, was a vision just like
Isaiah SAW him and David SAW the crucifixion in visions.
Preterists back then would have said no man could die and then see the
results of his work so that must be spiritual. You do the same things
today.
Christ Will Visibly Return To Earth
>> the Bible says that Jesus said no one on
>> earth would see him again.
For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west,
so will be the coming of the Son of Man.
(Mat 24:27)
After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud
hid him from their sight. They were looking intently up into the sky as
he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them.
"Men of Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here looking into the
sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come
back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven."
(Act 1:9-11)
I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose
rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war.
His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has
a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. He is dressed in
a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. The armies of
heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine
linen, white and clean. Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which
to strike down the nations. "He will rule them with an iron scepter." He
treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. On his
robe and on his thigh he has this name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD
OF LORDS. And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud
voice to all the birds flying in midair, "Come, gather together for the
great supper of God, so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals,
and mighty men, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people,
free and slave, small and great." Then I saw the beast and the kings of
the earth and their armies gathered together to make war against the
rider on the horse and his army.
(Rev 19:11-19)
@tampabay.rr.com Pastor Dave
<christwillvisib...@gmail.com> spake thusly:
>On 1/14/2011 11:22 AM, Pastor Dave wrote:
>
>>> the Bible says that Jesus said no one on
>>> earth would see him again.
>
>For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west,
>so will be the coming of the Son of Man.
>(Mat 24:27)
Snipping an entire post, including supporting
Scripture and then pitting Scripture against
itself, while trying to hide the fact that you're
doing it, is not a valid response. Nor is you
adding what isn't there, like you do with
Acts 1, but don't quote all three verses
that are involved and don't include where
it says that He ascended OUT OF THEIR SIGHT.
Now if one day you wish to discuss what I say,
then fine. But if you think that snipping every
word I post and then making doctrinal claims
is a response, then it is a waste of my time
and no one would do that, unless they're
either afraid of what I said, or they're just
so cocky, that they think they can't possibly
be wrong.
--
Pastor Dave
"Open to Acts 4:9-33. Are you a bold Christian? Or perhaps
are you cowardly Christian? May I put it this way.....
If you were arrested for being a Christian, would there
be enough evidence to convict you?"