camry 1995 4-cyl did not start this morning
Pszemol
me this morning and I could not start the engine...
First time had to take a different car to work :-(
Admit it, it was brutal cold this morning in Chicago area,
-4F and it will be even colder tomorrow morning...
The car was cranking pretty well, battery was strong, but
no luck with engine start. No symptoms yesterday evening.
Car is driven every day with overall no problems til today.
Took the battery home this afternoon to recharge after
too many attempts this morning. Put warmed up and
charged battery back into the car but still no luck...
Cranking strong, from time to time I hear a single boom like
I have a single ignition sometimes, but no engine action...
How do I troubleshoot the issue?
Anything specific to cold-weather to check (besides battery)?
Winston
> Hi, my old trusty 1995 with 250k on the odometer failed
> me this morning and I could not start the engine...
>
>
> How do I troubleshoot the issue?
> Anything specific to cold-weather to check (besides battery)?
Have you plugged in your On Board Diagnostic code reader yet?
What did it indicate?
You could snap on an inductive timing light and
determine if you are getting spark to each cylinder.
It would be educational to measure current to
the fuel pump and see if that is in spec.
Is it time to de-ice the fuel?
If there is no code and you are getting spark, the
fuel lines aren't blocked with a slug of frozen water
and your fuel pump appears to be working correctly,
you might be running 'over rich'. Notice I didn't
say 'flooded'. That would be politically incorrect
when referring to a fuel injected engine. Both conditions
are handled the same way:
WITHOUT PUMPING THE ACCELERATOR (sorry for shouting but it
is critical that you not make the situation worse), hold
the accelerator to the floor and turn the key. This will
lean out the mixture and get you going again, if this is
the only issue you face. Release the pedal as soon as the
car starts.
--Winston
Pszemol
news:gkp5q...@news3.newsguy.com...
> Have you plugged in your On Board Diagnostic code reader yet?
> What did it indicate?
I do not have one...
> You could snap on an inductive timing light and
> determine if you are getting spark to each cylinder.
OK, I will do it.
> It would be educational to measure current to
> the fuel pump and see if that is in spec.
How much current should it be?
> Is it time to de-ice the fuel?
It will probably be hard to de-ice the fuel at -10F outside...
> If there is no code and you are getting spark, the
> fuel lines aren't blocked with a slug of frozen water
> and your fuel pump appears to be working correctly,
> you might be running 'over rich'. Notice I didn't
> say 'flooded'. That would be politically incorrect
> when referring to a fuel injected engine. Both conditions
> are handled the same way:
>
> WITHOUT PUMPING THE ACCELERATOR (sorry for shouting but it
> is critical that you not make the situation worse), hold
> the accelerator to the floor and turn the key. This will
> lean out the mixture and get you going again, if this is
> the only issue you face. Release the pedal as soon as the
> car starts.
I am affraid it is something worse than that...
How would it become over rich over night?
Car worked just fine yesterday...
The only difference is that we got Arctic weather blown
from Alberta to Chicago. Out of your suggestions the
frozen fuel lines sound interesting as an option, but not
sure what to do with them - have to google it up ;-)
Winston
> "Winston" <Win...@bigbrother.net> wrote in message
> news:gkp5q...@news3.newsguy.com...
>> Have you plugged in your On Board Diagnostic code reader yet?
>> What did it indicate?
>
> I do not have one...
They aren't expensive:
http://search.harborfreight.com/cpisearch/web/search.do?keyword=obd&Submit=Go
Mine helped me fix three different cars over the years.
>> You could snap on an inductive timing light and
>> determine if you are getting spark to each cylinder.
>
> OK, I will do it.
>
>> It would be educational to measure current to
>> the fuel pump and see if that is in spec.
>
> How much current should it be?
Check your official Toyota Shop Manual, from Toyota.
Perhaps the local library?
Clymer, Chilton, etc. Need Not Apply.
Even Haynes isn't what it used to be.
>
>> Is it time to de-ice the fuel?
>
> It will probably be hard to de-ice the fuel at -10F outside...
I understand that there are 'fuel dryer' chems one can toss into
the tank to fix that. I have no experience personally so
I defer to Cecil Adams:
http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2668/why-does-gasoline-go-stale-so-quickly
>> If there is no code and you are getting spark, the
>> fuel lines aren't blocked with a slug of frozen water
>> and your fuel pump appears to be working correctly,
>> you might be running 'over rich'. Notice I didn't
>> say 'flooded'. That would be politically incorrect
>> when referring to a fuel injected engine. Both conditions
>> are handled the same way:
>>
>> WITHOUT PUMPING THE ACCELERATOR (sorry for shouting but it
>> is critical that you not make the situation worse), hold
>> the accelerator to the floor and turn the key. This will
>> lean out the mixture and get you going again, if this is
>> the only issue you face. Release the pedal as soon as the
>> car starts.
>
> I am affraid it is something worse than that...
> How would it become over rich over night?
In my case, it turned out to be a prank pulled by a co-worker.
Broke into my car and flooded the engine by pumping the accelerator.
Psychopaths will be psychopaths, as they say.
In a friend's case, stalling was caused by a fillup with bad gas.
(Never pull into a station that has a delivery truck on site.
The turbulence from filling the underground tank stirs up
lots of yuckys that you don't want to pump into your tank!)
> Car worked just fine yesterday...
When's the last time you filled up? Late yesterday? :)
> The only difference is that we got Arctic weather blown
> from Alberta to Chicago. Out of your suggestions the
> frozen fuel lines sound interesting as an option, but not
> sure what to do with them - have to google it up ;-)
Sounds like your car would enjoy 12 hours in a 70°
garage!
--Winston
john...@hotmail.com
check this -- if the fuel pulsation damper on the fuel rail pulsates?
Smell gas as you crank? etc.
I don't think the 1995 has OBD-II. It's a 96+ thing? If so use the
following from Autozone's free repair guide: http://www.autozone.com/shopping/repairGuide.htm
Under "driveability and emissions controls" -> "trouble codes" ->
"reading codes"
Let's hope you don't get something like:
14 Ignition Signal
IGF signal from igniter is not input to ECU for 4-5 consecutive
ignitions Open or short in IGF or IGT circuit from igniter to ECU.
john...@hotmail.com
guide:
"EXCEPT 1MZ-FE ENGINES
Since the fuel pump is concealed within the tank, it is difficult to
test directly at the pump. It is possible to test the pump from under
the hood, listening for pump function and feeling the fuel delivery
lines for the build-up of pressure.
1. Turn the ignition switch ON, but do not start the engine.
2. Using a jumper wire, short both terminals of the fuel pump check
connector. The check connector is located near the air cleaner.
Connect the terminals labeled FP and +B. Special service connector
09843-18020 or equivalent can be used to perform this test.
3. Check that there is pressure in the hose running to the delivery
pipe. You should hear fuel pressure noise and possibly hear the pump
at the rear of the car.
4. If the fuel pump failed to function, it may indicate a faulty
pump, but before removing the fuel pump, check the following items
within the pump system:
1. All fusible links
2. All fuses (EFI-15A and IGN-7.5A)
3. AM2-30A
4. EFI main relay
5. Fuel pump
6. Circuit opening relay
7. All wiring connections and grounds.
5. Turn the ignition to OFF.
6. Remove the jumper wire.
7. If there is no fuel pump pressure and an inspection of the
related electrical components does not reveal a malfunction, replace
the fuel pump."
Winston
> Yeah, fuel line icing would be a likely suspect. Not sure how you can
> check this -- if the fuel pulsation damper on the fuel rail pulsates?
> Smell gas as you crank? etc.
>
> I don't think the 1995 has OBD-II. It's a 96+ thing?
The '95 was fully compliant to OBD-II it says here:
http://www.obdii.com/connector.html
--Winston
Pszemol
news:6d2ab52f-13f1-4131...@o4g2000pra.googlegroups.com...
> As for verifying fuel pump operation, from Autozone's free repair
> guide:
I can hear some quiet buzzing noise from the back when
key is in START position and it continues for a short while
after the key is moved out from START after unsuccessful
ignition. That would be a sign of fuel pump working...
As for the pressure in the line - not sure which cable to feel.
Pszemol
> I understand that there are 'fuel dryer' chems one can toss into
> the tank to fix that. I have no experience personally so
> I defer to Cecil Adams:
> http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2668/why-does-gasoline-go-stale-so-quickly
OK, thanks.
> In my case, it turned out to be a prank pulled by a co-worker.
> Broke into my car and flooded the engine by pumping the accelerator.
> Psychopaths will be psychopaths, as they say.
That would be probably a temporary thing until fuel evaporates?
> In a friend's case, stalling was caused by a fillup with bad gas.
> (Never pull into a station that has a delivery truck on site.
> The turbulence from filling the underground tank stirs up
> lots of yuckys that you don't want to pump into your tank!)
>
>> Car worked just fine yesterday...
>
> When's the last time you filled up? Late yesterday? :)
No, I refueled couple days before.
>> The only difference is that we got Arctic weather blown
>> from Alberta to Chicago. Out of your suggestions the
>> frozen fuel lines sound interesting as an option, but not
>> sure what to do with them - have to google it up ;-)
>
> Sounds like your car would enjoy 12 hours in a 70°
> garage!
:-)
Pszemol
news:b9199e67-195e-4e58...@p2g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> Yeah, fuel line icing would be a likely suspect. Not sure how you can
> check this -- if the fuel pulsation damper on the fuel rail pulsates?
> Smell gas as you crank? etc.
>
> I don't think the 1995 has OBD-II. It's a 96+ thing? If so use the
> following from Autozone's free repair guide:
> http://www.autozone.com/shopping/repairGuide.htm
>
> Under "driveability and emissions controls" -> "trouble codes" ->
> "reading codes"
>
> Let's hope you don't get something like:
>
> 14 Ignition Signal
> IGF signal from igniter is not input to ECU for 4-5 consecutive
> ignitions Open or short in IGF or IGT circuit from igniter to ECU.
There is a code reading method with shoring two places in the
DIAGNOSTIC connector and looking at the CHECK ENGINE light.
Unfortunatelly when I read this code I see no code stored.
Light is blinking ON and OFF in equal time intervals, indicating
test mode with no code stored.
The battery was whole night in home, charging...
So this morning I made maybe 4-5 attempts of starting
and then turned engine into diag mode but no code there.
I have also confirmed the sound from the back (fuel pump)
goes off the same time I hear a relay click on the right side
of the dashboard. Maybe a second or so after the key is
moved out of the START position. So the pump operates.
The question is if there is fuel pressure or not - not know
how to check it. So the other thing could be the spark itself.
Is it possible my timing belt cracked this morning when
I tried to start the car when the air was -4F ? I hope not....
ransley
Probably bad gas and water in it. You can get maybe 5 bottles of Heat
or a gallon of denatured alcohol and put in a few quarts it wont hurt
anything. { I add a cup of alcohol to winshield fluid] But you still
dont know if its getting spark they sell a Pencil size spark tester
you hold against a plug wire while someone cranks it. I would also use
Either starting fluid.
Winston
> "Winston" <Win...@bigbrother.net> wrote in message
> news:gkp93...@news7.newsguy.com...
>> I understand that there are 'fuel dryer' chems one can toss into
>> the tank to fix that. I have no experience personally so
>> I defer to Cecil Adams:
>> http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2668/why-does-gasoline-go-stale-so-quickly
>>
>
> OK, thanks.
>
>> In my case, it turned out to be a prank pulled by a co-worker.
>> Broke into my car and flooded the engine by pumping the accelerator.
>> Psychopaths will be psychopaths, as they say.
>
> That would be probably a temporary thing until fuel evaporates?
Yes. It might take a few months for natural evaporation to take place,
however, considering the 'enclosed' nature of the intake manifold.
I just followed the procedure and drove home. Took about
one minute. Crank crank crank Pop! Vroom! Still works just fine.
>> In a friend's case, stalling was caused by a fillup with bad gas.
>> (Never pull into a station that has a delivery truck on site.
>> The turbulence from filling the underground tank stirs up
>> lots of yuckys that you don't want to pump into your tank!)
>>
>>> Car worked just fine yesterday...
>>
>> When's the last time you filled up? Late yesterday? :)
>
> No, I refueled couple days before.
Long enough for the water to settle down to the fuel pump?
(Raised Eyebrow)
>>> The only difference is that we got Arctic weather blown
>>> from Alberta to Chicago. Out of your suggestions the
>>> frozen fuel lines sound interesting as an option, but not
>>> sure what to do with them - have to google it up ;-)
>>
>> Sounds like your car would enjoy 12 hours in a 70°
>> garage!
>
> :-)
Maybe just an enormous hot water bottle.
At last, a use for a water bed!
--Winston
Winston
(...)
> Unfortunatelly when I read this code I see no code stored.
> Light is blinking ON and OFF in equal time intervals, indicating
> test mode with no code stored.
You covered a lot of troubleshooting ground, there.
Clearly, the problem is outside the capability of the computer
to detect and it thinks all it's monitored systems are working
properly. Sounds like a fuel related problem, even more.
> The battery was whole night in home, charging...
> So this morning I made maybe 4-5 attempts of starting
> and then turned engine into diag mode but no code there.
>
> I have also confirmed the sound from the back (fuel pump)
> goes off the same time I hear a relay click on the right side
> of the dashboard. Maybe a second or so after the key is
> moved out of the START position. So the pump operates.
> The question is if there is fuel pressure or not - not know
> how to check it. So the other thing could be the spark itself.
What were the results of your timing light tests on each
cylinder? Got Spark?
> Is it possible my timing belt cracked this morning when
> I tried to start the car when the air was -4F ? I hope not....
An engine sans timing belt sounds different when cranking.
If you get your normal 'cranking' sound the worst it could
be is a belt 'hop', where the valve timing is now bogus.
You stayed on top of your timing belt maintenance and had
it replaced every ~60K, right? So that can't be it. :)
At this point, I would be tempted to remove plug wires, rotor
cap and spark plugs. The plugs are probably 'gas fouled' and
need to be cleaned and dried.
Outside, with a fire extinguisher handy, I would crank the motor
in short bursts to clear the cylinders of water and liquid gas.
I don't need to mention that you should stay the heck AWAY
from the accelerator pedal, correcto?
On returning to the front of the car, if I smelled a strong odor
of gasoline, I would suspect the path from fuel tank to cylinders
was in good shape. If not, I would suspect that the path is restricted
by an ice slug or broken fuel pump or something like that.
In the former case, I would reinstall the plugs and cap,
and crank the car while staying the heck away from the accelerator.
If that didn't work, I would use the procedure I mentioned before
to address a 'flooded' condition.
In the latter case, I would throw a can of gas dryer in the tank
and jump on the rear bumper to mix it up a little.
YMWV
--Winston
Pszemol
news:7cdb2b4b-af12-469a...@r15g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
> Probably bad gas and water in it. You can get maybe 5 bottles of Heat
> or a gallon of denatured alcohol and put in a few quarts it wont hurt
> anything. { I add a cup of alcohol to winshield fluid] But you still
> dont know if its getting spark they sell a Pencil size spark tester
> you hold against a plug wire while someone cranks it. I would also
> use Either starting fluid.
Today after work I did further tests...
I tried the starter fluid - removed rubber hose leading from the
air filter container to the intake manifold, opened butterfly pulling
by the wire and squirted generous amount into the intake manifold
right behind opened butterfly... No results: cranking but no start.
So... no problem with fuel delivery.
Removed all 4 spark plugs, reattached them to the spark plug
wires and lay them flat on the engine block - observed sparks
nicely going in sequence when engine was cranking...
(did not even need 2nd person for this test since I have remote start)
So... no problem with fuel, no problem with sparks - then what?
Now I seriously suspect the timing belt, either snapped or
just jumped a tooth or two... But would it do it just from cold?
I am going to get the compression tested tomorrow morning
and check the pressure in each cylinder to see if valves are
opening at the right time...
Anybody here with other, better ideas?
Winston
(...)
> Now I seriously suspect the timing belt, either snapped or
> just jumped a tooth or two... But would it do it just from cold?
> I am going to get the compression tested tomorrow morning
> and check the pressure in each cylinder to see if valves are
> opening at the right time...
>
> Anybody here with other, better ideas?
Might want to pop the timing cover off and see if the cam gear
hole is lined up with the dot on the upper cam bearing housing
when the piston in cylinder #1 is at TDC.
Also a good time to check the health of the timing belt.
--Winston
Winston
> "ransley" <Mark_R...@Yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:7cdb2b4b-af12-469a...@r15g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
>> Probably bad gas and water in it. You can get maybe 5 bottles of Heat
>> or a gallon of denatured alcohol and put in a few quarts it wont hurt
>> anything. { I add a cup of alcohol to winshield fluid] But you still
>> dont know if its getting spark they sell a Pencil size spark tester
>> you hold against a plug wire while someone cranks it. I would also
>> use Either starting fluid.
>
> Today after work I did further tests...
>
> I tried the starter fluid - removed rubber hose leading from the
> air filter container to the intake manifold, opened butterfly pulling
> by the wire and squirted generous amount into the intake manifold
> right behind opened butterfly... No results: cranking but no start.
>
> So... no problem with fuel delivery.
>
> Removed all 4 spark plugs, reattached them to the spark plug
> wires and lay them flat on the engine block - observed sparks
> nicely going in sequence when engine was cranking...
> (did not even need 2nd person for this test since I have remote start)
>
> So... no problem with fuel, no problem with sparks - then what?
Did you smell a strong gasoline odor when you cranked the motor
with the plugs out?
--Winston
ransley
> "ransley" <Mark_Rans...@Yahoo.com> wrote in message
If belt snapped then would you have any spark, and something would
happen I think, at least a firing or 2. Either may not be getting in
and enough. once I tried it and it failed. You have spark tomorrow it
will be 22-24, Was spark blue. I bet its fuel related. I just bough a
gallon of alcohol today, denatured, I cant drink it its for the cars
and windows.
ransley
Wait it will be 40f warmer today, it will feel like summer.
Fat Moe
either flooded or not getting enough fuel. It should have started and
run for just a bit when you used the starter fluid if it is not getting
fuel from the tank. Since it didn't it's probably flooded. Try
holding the gas pedal down when starting and see if it will start firing
as you crank the engine. Fuel injection systems don't have an
accelerator pump like the old carburetor engines so it doesn't matter if
you "pump" the accelerator or not. One thing you might also want to do
is loosen the fuel filler cap and listen for a sucking sound, if the
tank vapor emissions system is not working properly it won't allow make
up air into the tank and can create a negative pressure when outside
temp drop. But that would cause a no fuel condition and it sounds like
you have a "flooding" problem. We have gotten spoiled with fuel
injection, it used to be quite an ordeal on cold winter days starting a
car and pumping the gas pedal to keep it running long enough to get it
warmed up enough so you get the car to start moving without dieing. Oh,
the good old days.
And a leaking fuel injector will cause a flooding problem as it will
allow fuel to leak overnight until the residual fuel pressure has
dropped.
Good luck,
Pszemol
news:4971a877$0$5453$bbae...@news.suddenlink.net...
> I'd say it's just to damn cold and for whatever reason the engine is
> either flooded or not getting enough fuel. It should have started and run
> for just a bit when you used the starter fluid if it is not getting fuel
> from the tank. Since it didn't it's probably flooded. Try holding the
> gas pedal down when starting and see if it will start firing as you crank
> the engine. Fuel injection systems don't have an accelerator pump like
> the old carburetor engines so it doesn't matter if you "pump" the
> accelerator or not. One thing you might also want to do is loosen the
> fuel filler cap and listen for a sucking sound, if the tank vapor
> emissions system is not working properly it won't allow make up air into
> the tank and can create a negative pressure when outside temp drop. But
> that would cause a no fuel condition and it sounds like you have a
> "flooding" problem. We have gotten spoiled with fuel injection, it used
> to be quite an ordeal on cold winter days starting a car and pumping the
> gas pedal to keep it running long enough to get it warmed up enough so you
> get the car to start moving without dieing. Oh, the good old days.
> And a leaking fuel injector will cause a flooding problem as it will
> allow fuel to leak overnight until the residual fuel pressure has dropped.
How did you get to the conclusion the engine is flooded?
Fat Moe
Pszemol
> Did you smell a strong gasoline odor when you cranked the motor
> with the plugs out?
Yes, I can even see an aerosol/fog being shut up from the open hole.
I put my open hand to catch it and I had a wet circle on my hand,
smelling strongly like gasoline...
Fuel delivery does not seem to be a problem here, I think.
Suspecting the timing belt I have got the engine compression tester.
Tested all 4 cylinders with following values: 110, 90, 100, 100 PSI.
Pretty low overall. I have checked the service manual and they
list the compression to be 178 psi or more! With a minimal 142 psi!
And maximum difference between cylinders not greater than 14psi.
So would this support the scenario about a jumped timing belt?
Or, maybe a low pressure like this after 250k miles is pretty normal?
Pszemol
>> How did you get to the conclusion the engine is flooded?
> It has a spark, and the starting fluid didn't start it.
How to remedy the situation if we assume this is the case?
Should the gasoline evaporate by now when I have the
car with no sparkplugs there for couple of hours?
Winston
The 'flooded' or over-rich condition occurs on the intake
side of the engine, not the exhaust side. Venting the liquid
fuel from the cylinders is a good step even so.
You cleaned and dried the spark plugs, correct?
I guess I never mentioned this but:
> WITHOUT PUMPING THE ACCELERATOR (sorry for shouting but it
> is critical that you not make the situation worse), hold
> the accelerator to the floor and turn the key. This will
> lean out the mixture and get you going again, if this is
> the only issue you face. Release the pedal as soon as the
> car starts.
And later, Fat Moe stated:
> Since it didn't it's probably flooded.
> Try holding the gas pedal down when starting and see if it
> will start firing as you crank the engine.
I vaguely recall someone mentioning that you can check to see
if the timing belt has hopped:
john...@hotmail.com
low compression.
So I wouldn't rule out flooded cylinder yet. In this case pressing the
accelerator half-way is usually (traditionally) recommended, but on
some injected engines they say no touching the pedal before starting,
for example Fords. I'd say go with what the manual says.
There should be a rubber plug near the tensioner pulley, at least on
later ones, that you can quickly pull off and observe while the engine
cranked. I think the removal of the upper cover is somehwat involved?
john...@hotmail.com
system part is working, then the engine will flood. Bosch Motronic
engine control systems can detect engine flooding and ask on the
information display to press the gas pedal half way to assist
starting.
Systems vary, so follow what the manual says in starting a
(potentially) flooded engine.
Fat Moe
is a "cold start" system for the car. Some report the engine coolant
temperature(ECT) sensor could be the problem. If it is flooding I'd
think pulling the fuel pump fuse so it will quit flooding until the
engine starts and dies would clear out the excess gasoline in the
cylinders and manifold. Then replace the fuse and see if you can start
it and it will continue to run. Some reported problems with a cold
start valve but with the extremely cold temps you are having it will
bring out the problems and any weakness in an old car. Once you get it
running I'd change the brand of gas with the next fill up also.
Here's a Toyota forum thread with a cold start issue. There are many
others. Read up a bit and you should find lots of potential problems
and cures. But I think a 20 degree warmer day and a fresh tank of
gasoline will do the most good. If you can get it into a heated garage
overnight it ought to start.
Here's a link,
http://www.toyotanation.com/forum/showthread.php?t=277222&page=2
Let us know how it turns out.
Winston
> Pszemol wrote:
>> "Fat Moe" <Fat...@BubbleWorld.Com> wrote in message
>> news:49720e1c$0$5453$bbae...@news.suddenlink.net...
> Google "1995 camry cold start problem"
Yup. I had a chronic 'cold start' issue with a '96 Camry
wagon, and never with my '00 Camry sedan. Note that this was
a classical case; the car would start but it would stall in cold
weather until it went 'closed loop'. Returned it to the shop
every year to have the ISC valve cleaned. I finally wised up
and replaced the valve. Never an issue after that.
--Winston
Pszemol
I wish I could "go" to the shop to clean something, but
as I told you guys - my car does not go anywhere anymore :-)
It does not start, period. It does not have "trouble starting", it
does not have "trouble idling" it simply does not start.
Pszemol
I am reading the initial post with the poster's symptomps:
"I have 95 camry 5sfe with a cold start issue. In order to start my car,
I had to hold the gas while pumping the brakes until it decided to stay
running."
A my car is different - it does not start AT ALL.
It does not make any single rev on its own.
The brake pedal stays hard like it is when engine is off.
No way to pump it.
This tells me my problem has a different source, but thanks for the link
to the forum - I found a great page with different camry manuals:
http://www.camrystuff.com/
Pszemol
news:809f9bb5-9418-43b1...@t39g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
> Excessive fuel in the cylinder will clean out the oil and you'll get
> low compression.
>
> So I wouldn't rule out flooded cylinder yet. In this case pressing the
> accelerator half-way is usually (traditionally) recommended, but on
> some injected engines they say no touching the pedal before starting,
> for example Fords. I'd say go with what the manual says.
I see, thanks for the info.
I could try to put a small amount of engine oil into a each cylinder
to rule this our, could I?
> There should be a rubber plug near the tensioner pulley, at least on
> later ones, that you can quickly pull off and observe while the engine
> cranked. I think the removal of the upper cover is somehwat involved?
It is 30F this morning - I will try to find this plug - yes, reading the
manual it seems like too much work for a shade tree mechanic
operating from a parking lot... :-)
BTW Manual does not say anything about the plug...
Pszemol
news:0ed18ad8-625f-47c4...@w24g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
> If the engine is cranked excessively without starting, and the fuel
> system part is working, then the engine will flood. Bosch Motronic
> engine control systems can detect engine flooding and ask on the
> information display to press the gas pedal half way to assist
> starting.
>
> Systems vary, so follow what the manual says in starting a
> (potentially) flooded engine.
While excessive cranking without starting might be the problem
for not starting now, it is hardly the reason for initial starting
problems Thursday morning, isn't it?
In a 1995 toyota camry I certainly do not have Bosch Motronic
engine control systems, and certainly do not have any display.
Just 5-6 idiot lights on the dashboard :-)
Winston
(...)
> I am reading the initial post with the poster's symptomps:
> "I have 95 camry 5sfe with a cold start issue. In order to start my car,
> I had to hold the gas while pumping the brakes until it decided to stay
> running."
That's a typo. The classical ISC problem requires one to keep the
throttle partially open in order to keep the car running.
As you say, this has nothing to do with the symptoms you outlined.
>
> A my car is different - it does not start AT ALL.
What happened when you held the accelerator to the floor continuously
and turned the key?
> It does not make any single rev on its own.
>
> The brake pedal stays hard like it is when engine is off.
> No way to pump it.
Brakes have nothing to do with this issue.
> This tells me my problem has a different source, but thanks for the link
> to the forum - I found a great page with different camry manuals:
> http://www.camrystuff.com/
Bookmarked. Thanks!
--Winston
Winston
What happened when you held the accelerator to the floor continuously
and turned the key?
--Winston
Winston
> <john...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:809f9bb5-9418-43b1...@t39g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
>> Excessive fuel in the cylinder will clean out the oil and you'll get
>> low compression.
>>
>> So I wouldn't rule out flooded cylinder yet. In this case pressing the
>> accelerator half-way is usually (traditionally) recommended, but on
>> some injected engines they say no touching the pedal before starting,
>> for example Fords. I'd say go with what the manual says.
>
> I see, thanks for the info.
> I could try to put a small amount of engine oil into a each cylinder
> to rule this our, could I?
I think we have an adequate explanation for the low compression.
The car should run with those values. You can always do a better
compression test after you get the car running.
>
>> There should be a rubber plug near the tensioner pulley, at least on
>> later ones, that you can quickly pull off and observe while the engine
>> cranked. I think the removal of the upper cover is somehwat involved?
>
> It is 30F this morning - I will try to find this plug - yes, reading the
> manual it seems like too much work for a shade tree mechanic
> operating from a parking lot... :-)
>
> BTW Manual does not say anything about the plug...
What happened when you held the accelerator to the floor continuously
Winston
What happened when you held the accelerator to the floor continuously
Pszemol
>> I see, thanks for the info.
>> I could try to put a small amount of engine oil into a each cylinder
>> to rule this our, could I?
>
> I think we have an adequate explanation for the low compression.
> The car should run with those values. You can always do a better
> compression test after you get the car running.
Spec say 178 or more and I read 90 on 2nd cyl and 100 on others
- is that normal for cylinders washed with fuel?
>>> There should be a rubber plug near the tensioner pulley, at least on
>>> later ones, that you can quickly pull off and observe while the engine
>>> cranked. I think the removal of the upper cover is somehwat involved?
>>
>> It is 30F this morning - I will try to find this plug - yes, reading the
>> manual it seems like too much work for a shade tree mechanic
>> operating from a parking lot... :-)
>>
>> BTW Manual does not say anything about the plug...
>
> What happened when you held the accelerator to the floor
> continuously and turned the key?
The same thing like with the accelerator released.
Engine cranking but not starting - from time to time occasional
single ignition but no starting. Accelerator does not seem to matter.
After having spark plugs off and intake manifold exposed for a day now
I will put plugs back and try again. It is much, much warmer today, about
30F.
Winston
> "Winston" <Win...@bigbrother.net> wrote in message
> news:gkvta...@news6.newsguy.com...
(...)
>> I think we have an adequate explanation for the low compression.
>> The car should run with those values. You can always do a better
>> compression test after you get the car running.
>
> Spec say 178 or more and I read 90 on 2nd cyl and 100 on others
> - is that normal for cylinders washed with fuel?
Perhaps so. Let's not focus on that right now.
>
>>>> There should be a rubber plug near the tensioner pulley, at least on
>>>> later ones, that you can quickly pull off and observe while the engine
>>>> cranked. I think the removal of the upper cover is somehwat involved?
>>>
>>> It is 30F this morning - I will try to find this plug - yes, reading the
>>> manual it seems like too much work for a shade tree mechanic
>>> operating from a parking lot... :-)
>>>
>>> BTW Manual does not say anything about the plug...
>>
>> What happened when you held the accelerator to the floor
>> continuously and turned the key?
>
> The same thing like with the accelerator released.
> Engine cranking but not starting - from time to time occasional
> single ignition but no starting. Accelerator does not seem to matter.
Be patient. It can take a few trys before the system dries out sufficiently.
Above all, resist the urge to pump the gas!
> After having spark plugs off and intake manifold exposed for a day now
> I will put plugs back and try again. It is much, much warmer today,
> about 30F.
Toasty! :)
--Winston
Pszemol
> Be patient. It can take a few trys before the system dries out
> sufficiently.
> Above all, resist the urge to pump the gas!
Haven't we read here that pumping gas on injector engine
does nothing similar like the pumping gas on carburetor engine?
Winston
I can't help you there. All I know is what has worked for me.
> "- from time to time occasional
> single ignition but no starting."
That is an indication that one cylinder occasionally gets a
'good enough' mixture to ignite. I think the car is telling
you to hold the accelerator to the floor and make a few more
attempts at starting.
Same message since Thursday night.
--Winston
Pszemol
>> I am reading the initial post with the poster's symptomps:
>> "I have 95 camry 5sfe with a cold start issue. In order to start my car,
>> I had to hold the gas while pumping the brakes until it decided to stay
>> running."
>
> That's a typo.
What exactly is a typo here?
> The classical ISC problem requires one to keep the
> throttle partially open in order to keep the car running.
> As you say, this has nothing to do with the symptoms you outlined.
Maybe it has... I had a nice turn in the events :-)
I was able to start the car this afternoon. Yahooo!
I was patient, hold the accelerator down little longer than before...
Way exceeded 5 seconds starter ON time and after maybe 15-20
such attempts, when the battery was not that strong anymore I got
the first start and then it quickly died. But it was promissing now...
I kept doing this and it started - very rough at first, later smoother.
But...
I noticed than when I quickly decelerate my revs go down too much.
And engine partially warmed up dies on idle very often.
Like in the classical ISC problem you described - if I hold the pedal
half way it stays running, if I let go it dies.
Now I have to read more about it...
BTW - anybody knows what is this strange device under
the accelerator line holder on the pictures below:
http://www.ezpixs.com/UserImages/15644.jpg
http://www.ezpixs.com/UserImages/15646.jpg
It seems like there is an adjusting screw, but it does not touch:
http://www.ezpixs.com/UserImages/15645.jpg
What is this thing? Should this screw be adjusted somehow?
john...@hotmail.com
is that without it, a cooling throttle body will grab the plate, and
the next time the accelerator pedal doesn't move. When the engine is
running, the vacuum holds back the screw so it doesn't interfere with
normal throttle operation. Pretty much no need to touch this thing.
Of course if the IAC is the problem, unplugging the vacuum line to the
plate opener and plugging up the now open vacuum port on the throttle
body *might* help raise the minimum RPM by allowing air to go pass the
throttle plate while idle (in case IAC is frozen shut).
On Jan 18, 7:40 pm, "Pszemol" <Psze...@PolBox.com> wrote:
>
> BTW - anybody knows what is this strange device under
> the accelerator line holder on the pictures below:
>
> http://www.ezpixs.com/UserImages/15644.jpghttp://www.ezpixs.com/UserImages/15646.jpg
john...@hotmail.com
that adds extra gas.
But manually forcing open the throttle plate looks like it helps, at
least at this higher temperature you are able to clear the flooded
engine.
Next time I think Fat Moe's suggestion of shutting down the fuel pump
would help clear the system of excess fuel faster -- but I think in
milder cases the traditional way of holding down the pedal would be
easier.
john...@hotmail.com
sensors or IAC got knocked out temporarily by the cold.
Electronic wise, ECT (2-wire deal) being one, the other likely culprit
would be the MAP sensor.
Mechanically, a frozen stuck IAC is easy to check, hold open the
throttle slightly (manually creating your IAC). I don't think the
newer IACs are any better given the problems reported post 1997.
Toyota should have gone with a stepper motor design instead of bi-
metal. Also, vacuum leak can throw things off the the ECU. Maybe
something shrank too much in the cold?
Winston
> "Winston" <Win...@bigbrother.net> wrote in message
> news:gkvt4...@news6.newsguy.com...
>>> I am reading the initial post with the poster's symptomps:
>>> "I have 95 camry 5sfe with a cold start issue. In order to start my car,
>>> I had to hold the gas while pumping the brakes until it decided to
>>> stay running."
>>
>> That's a typo.
>
> What exactly is a typo here?
That sentence only makes sense if you transpose the words 'gas' and 'brakes'.
Try this: "In order to start my car, I had to hold the brakes while pumping
the gas until it decided to stay running." That sounds like the
standard ISC problem. As quoted, the sentence makes no sense, as it
attempts to convince us that pumping the *brakes* would have any affect on
idle speed. I don't buy that for a second.
>> The classical ISC problem requires one to keep the
>> throttle partially open in order to keep the car running.
>> As you say, this has nothing to do with the symptoms you outlined.
>
> Maybe it has... I had a nice turn in the events :-)
>
> I was able to start the car this afternoon. Yahooo!
One Attaboy to you, Pszemol.
> I was patient, hold the accelerator down little longer than before...
> Way exceeded 5 seconds starter ON time and after maybe 15-20
> such attempts, when the battery was not that strong anymore I got
> the first start and then it quickly died. But it was promissing now...
>
> I kept doing this and it started - very rough at first, later smoother.
>
> But...
> I noticed than when I quickly decelerate my revs go down too much.
> And engine partially warmed up dies on idle very often.
> Like in the classical ISC problem you described - if I hold the pedal
> half way it stays running, if I let go it dies.
If you managed to keep the car running long enough, it should have
entered "closed loop" mode and should have idled much more easily
when it warmed up.
In that case, it looks like a classical Idle Speed Control issue.
http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/h26.pdf
The standard approach is to remove the Idle Speed Control (or "Idle
Air Control") valve and clean it.
I repaired a '96 5SFE permanently by replacing the entire valve
with a new one. No more trips to the shop for Idle Speed Control valve cleaning!
Yours is the Duralast AC416 or equivalent.
http://www.autozone.com/R,5215651/vehicleId,1992101/initialAction,partProductDetail/store,3369/partType,00207/shopping/partProductDetail.htm
If the car does not idle smoothly even after warming up, you
need to talk with someone more experienced than me because that
is far outside my ability to troubleshoot.
It's becoming more necessary to confirm valve timing, too.
>
> Now I have to read more about it...
>
> BTW - anybody knows what is this strange device under
> the accelerator line holder on the pictures below:
>
> http://www.ezpixs.com/UserImages/15644.jpg
> http://www.ezpixs.com/UserImages/15646.jpg
>
> It seems like there is an adjusting screw, but it does not touch:
> http://www.ezpixs.com/UserImages/15645.jpg
>
> What is this thing? Should this screw be adjusted somehow?
Looks like the dashpot responsible for air-fuel mixture adjustment
to reduce HC and CO emission on deceleration.
Probably does not need adjustment.
http://www.autozone.com/az/cds/en_us/0900823d/80/13/eb/16/0900823d8013eb16/repairInfoPages.htm
Best of luck to you!
--Winston
Winston
> Like Winston said, the initial problem *may* be because some marginal
> sensors or IAC got knocked out temporarily by the cold.
I guess that's possible but I think the initial problem was probably
caused by a frozen, blocked fuel line, due to the watered gas
the OP purchased on Tuesday the 13th, the possibility of which I
suggested on Thursday night, the 15th. The water, emulsified in the
gasoline began stratifying over time; began occupying
the bottom of his tank, rising to the level of the fuel pump
pickup screen by the evening of Wednesday the 14th.
See, the minimum temperature in Chicago on the 13th and 14th was a
balmy 1° F. By Thursday morning the 15th, the temperature had fallen
below -9° F.
You could look it up:
http://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/KMDW/2009/1/15/DailyHistory.html?req_city=NA&req_state=NA&req_statename=NA
The exposed fuel line then had a good sized slug of frozen water /
gasoline emulsion in it, isolating the fuel pump from the engine.
I conjecture that repeated start attempts established a vacuum in the
fuel rail which was displaced by lots of water and then gasoline
when the ice slug eventually thawed, from the heat of the fuel pump.
Subsequent attempts to start the car failed because someone who shall
remain Pszemol did not take steps to remove the water and excess fuel
washing down the cylinders. Instead, he chose to add more fuel to the
cylinders by repeated start attempts (and perhaps some panicked
tromping on the accelerator, but that is just a guess). (Please spare
me the tutorial about fuel injection. Turn the key and stomp on the
pedal; the injectors *will* spit raw gas into the cylinders.)
After the fuel line thawed, he could have recovered by forcing a 'lean'
condition (holding the throttle body open with the accelerator pedal)
long enough to blow the water and excess raw gasoline out the
tailpipe and start the car using a more appropriate mixture of air
to gasoline as I suggested on Thursday night, the 15th.
As it is, Pszemol now has a gas tank full of slush and some
gasoline. It ought to be drained before it ruins his motor and
starts rusting things.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
When the 5SFE is cold, it's operating 'open loop' and depends on the
Idle Air Control valve to automatically 'throttle up' the motor
through the warm-up phase. After it is warmed up, the IAC is turned
back down again and the emission control hardware comes into play.
(IOW enters 'closed loop' mode.)
That is the temperature effect I was on about.
> Electronic wise, ECT (2-wire deal) being one, the other likely culprit
> would be the MAP sensor.
>
> Mechanically, a frozen stuck IAC is easy to check, hold open the
> throttle slightly (manually creating your IAC). I don't think the
> newer IACs are any better given the problems reported post 1997.
> Toyota should have gone with a stepper motor design instead of bi-
> metal.
The '95 IAC is stepper motor driven.
> Also, vacuum leak can throw things off the the ECU. Maybe
> something shrank too much in the cold?
>
>
> On Jan 18, 9:58 am, "Pszemol" <Psze...@PolBox.com> wrote:
>> While excessive cranking without starting might be the problem
>> for not starting now, it is hardly the reason for initial starting
>> problems Thursday morning, isn't it?
That tank of water and gasoline Pszemol bought on Tuesday is the
root cause of this adventure, I believe.
--Winston
Fat Moe
spend on an old car when it might not do any good if it gets that cold
again. I'd say put a bottle of rubbing alcohol in the tank to emulsify
any water and drive it. If the ECT needs replacing I'd do that also.
Use Top Tier gasoline http://www.toptiergas.com/ read about it if
you don't know what it is.
Go easy on the fuel system cleaner additives on old cars, you can get
into filter clogging problems if the tank has accumulated much crud in
it. Most of all learn to diagnose and repair things back to factory
specs or leave it alone and find a competent mechanic who can and will
and allow him plenty of time to do his work. It costs a certain amount
to get a mile down the road and one way or another you pay that cost.
There are a lot of cars that have gone to the junkyard that would still
be drivable if competent routine repair, service, and maintenance had
been performed. Cutting costs on your primary vehicle is going to cost
you one way or the other.
The best thing I've found for extreme cold weather starting with old
cars is a small battery charger left on the vehicle overnight.
Pszemol
news:e25a98f0-7b06-4159...@k1g2000prb.googlegroups.com...
> I would think so, injected engines do not have "accelerator pumps"
> that adds extra gas.
>
> But manually forcing open the throttle plate looks like it helps, at
> least at this higher temperature you are able to clear the flooded
> engine.
>
> Next time I think Fat Moe's suggestion of shutting down the fuel pump
> would help clear the system of excess fuel faster -- but I think in
> milder cases the traditional way of holding down the pedal would
> be easier.
Well, This morning I tried the method of starting with pedal down.
No luck. Probably 5 times, very long attempts - no luck.
In a last attempt I left the gas pedal alone and turned - it started
very rough, almost died but kept the idle at 1200 rpms.
I am just back home after I left it idling - will see if it drives OK.
BTW - checked the ECT sensor with the ohm meter: 10kohm@ 14F.
That looks good compared to the reference table in the service manual.
What is the next thing to check?
Winston
I may not have mentioned this but:
> As it is, Pszemol now has a gas tank full of slush and some
> gasoline. It ought to be drained before it ruins his motor and
> starts rusting things.
--Winston
Pszemol
> The question now is how much time,effort and money a person wants to
> spend on an old car when it might not do any good if it gets that cold
> again. I'd say put a bottle of rubbing alcohol in the tank to emulsify
> any water and drive it.
Alcohol should already be there in the fuel I buy.
> If the ECT needs replacing I'd do that also.
Does not seem like it does. Measured it this morning.
Pszemol
> john...@hotmail.com wrote:
>> Yeah, fuel line icing would be a likely suspect. Not sure how you can
>> check this -- if the fuel pulsation damper on the fuel rail pulsates?
>> Smell gas as you crank? etc.
>>
>> I don't think the 1995 has OBD-II. It's a 96+ thing?
>
> The '95 was fully compliant to OBD-II it says here:
> http://www.obdii.com/connector.html
Maybe California Emissions version. Mine does not have this connector!
The car has manufactured date on the sticker 11/94 but model year 95.
Mine looks like the one on page 297 of this document:
http://www.camrystuff.com/manuals/Gen3/eg1.pdf
Pszemol
> That tank of water and gasoline Pszemol bought on Tuesday
> is the root cause of this adventure, I believe.
I am very reluctant to believe this story...
I fuel two cars at the same fuel station - the other one is
2004 honda accord, which started perfectly fine every day.
The station is not commercial/retail - it is small fleet station
managed by my employer. Only employees are alowed to fuel there.
The new fuel is delivered rarely (80 empl;oyees), so the gas from
the same delivery was purchased many times in both cars during
the course of last couple of weeks with no issues before.
Also, in Illinois, gasoline contains 10% of ethanol - not sure
if this applies to the private fleet gas stations, but if so, there
should be no problems with water separating on the bottom
of the car's tank - it should mix well with alcohol present in fuel.
What do you think?
Pszemol
> Pszemol wrote:
>> "Winston" <Win...@bigbrother.net> wrote in message
>> news:gkvt4...@news6.newsguy.com...
>>>> I am reading the initial post with the poster's symptomps:
>>>> "I have 95 camry 5sfe with a cold start issue. In order to start my
>>>> car,
>>>> I had to hold the gas while pumping the brakes until it decided to stay
>>>> running."
>>>
>>> That's a typo.
>>
>> What exactly is a typo here?
>
> That sentence only makes sense if you transpose the words 'gas' and
> 'brakes'.
> Try this: "In order to start my car, I had to hold the brakes while
> pumping
> the gas until it decided to stay running." That sounds like the
> standard ISC problem. As quoted, the sentence makes no sense, as it
> attempts to convince us that pumping the *brakes* would have any affect on
> idle speed. I don't buy that for a second.
If we assume typo, whould this method of pumping gas cause massive
flooding on the engine? That would go against the advice to keeping
throttle plate open with gas pedal pressed. How could pumping
gas help when you are so against it because it causes flooding?
On the other side, brakes could have something to do with vacuum in
the intake manifold, so whatever that person described could be right.
Let's say the power brakes vacuum reservoir was leaking and when
pressing brakes now you have to use vacuum from the intake, you could
be influencing other vacuum-controlled devices with pumping brakes
I am not sure if I understand your reasoning.
>> But...
>> I noticed than when I quickly decelerate my revs go down too much.
>> And engine partially warmed up dies on idle very often.
>> Like in the classical ISC problem you described - if I hold the pedal
>> half way it stays running, if I let go it dies.
>
> If you managed to keep the car running long enough, it should have
> entered "closed loop" mode and should have idled much more easily
> when it warmed up.
> In that case, it looks like a classical Idle Speed Control issue.
>
> http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/h26.pdf
>
> The standard approach is to remove the Idle Speed Control (or "Idle Air
> Control") valve and clean it.
How do I clean it? Do I soak it in carburetor cleaner or something?
> I repaired a '96 5SFE permanently by replacing the entire valve
> with a new one. No more trips to the shop for Idle Speed Control
> valve cleaning!
> Yours is the Duralast AC416 or equivalent.
> http://www.autozone.com/R,5215651/vehicleId,1992101/initialAction,partProductDetail/store,3369/partType,00207/shopping/partProductDetail.htm
Very expensive...
And this one seems to be for California vehicle, mine is not California.
Not sure what the difference is...
> If the car does not idle smoothly even after warming up, you
> need to talk with someone more experienced than me because that
> is far outside my ability to troubleshoot.
>
> It's becoming more necessary to confirm valve timing, too.
OK.
> Looks like the dashpot responsible for air-fuel mixture adjustment
> to reduce HC and CO emission on deceleration.
> Probably does not need adjustment.
> http://www.autozone.com/az/cds/en_us/0900823d/80/13/eb/16/0900823d8013eb16/repairInfoPages.htm
To quote their words:
"This system is only applicable to the 1989-91 2VZ-FE engines."
Not my car. John's idea sound more convincing. But who knows...
> Best of luck to you!
Thanks.
Pszemol
news:1f776e87-ec97-43a1...@g1g2000pra.googlegroups.com...
> That's the throttle plate opener. The problem with the Toyota design
> is that without it, a cooling throttle body will grab the plate, and
> the next time the accelerator pedal doesn't move. When the engine is
> running, the vacuum holds back the screw so it doesn't interfere with
> normal throttle operation. Pretty much no need to touch this thing.
OK - thanks for the very detailed explanation.
> Of course if the IAC is the problem, unplugging the vacuum line to the
> plate opener and plugging up the now open vacuum port on the throttle
> body *might* help raise the minimum RPM by allowing air to go pass the
> throttle plate while idle (in case IAC is frozen shut).
But driving like this would be kind of hard and not good for mpg... :-)
Last time I was creaning throttle body I saw many holes and crannies
around the throttle plate. What else is connected there beside IAC?
Pszemol
news:gl1aig...@poczta.onet.pl...
> I am just back home after I left it idling - will see if it drives OK.
It drove like nothing has happened last couple of days...
Runs as usual.
But I will have to start it without pressing the gas pedal next time to see
the difference.
Pszemol
> I may not have mentioned this but:
>
>> As it is, Pszemol now has a gas tank full of slush and some
>> gasoline. It ought to be drained before it ruins his motor and
>> starts rusting things.
Yes, you have mentioned this, but somehow I am not buying this story :-)
About 80 coworkers buy their gas from the same fleet station I do,
and they do not seem to have problems with the water in the fuel...
It is hardly possible I am the unlucky one who has water and they don't.
Winston
(...)
> The question now is how much time,effort and money a person wants to
> spend on an old car when it might not do any good if it gets that cold
> again.
It's a question of 'need' not 'want', so much. We've all been there.
In this case, draining the water and compromised gasoline out of the
car, flushing fresh gasoline through the system and replacing the
fuel filter is the proper thing to do. Methods of draining the tank
shown on the net range from the improbable to the downright dangerous.
Never having done it, I advise that the proper method involves a tow
truck and a qualified professional in a well-equipped shop.
That is *so* much cheaper than an ambulance ride and 4 weeks in ICU.
> I'd say put a bottle of rubbing alcohol in the tank to emulsify
> any water and drive it. If the ECT needs replacing I'd do that also.
> Use Top Tier gasoline http://www.toptiergas.com/ read about it if
> you don't know what it is.
> Go easy on the fuel system cleaner additives on old cars, you can get
> into filter clogging problems if the tank has accumulated much crud in
> it. Most of all learn to diagnose and repair things back to factory
> specs or leave it alone and find a competent mechanic who can and will
> and allow him plenty of time to do his work. It costs a certain amount
> to get a mile down the road and one way or another you pay that cost.
> There are a lot of cars that have gone to the junkyard that would still
> be drivable if competent routine repair, service, and maintenance had
> been performed. Cutting costs on your primary vehicle is going to cost
> you one way or the other.
> The best thing I've found for extreme cold weather starting with old
> cars is a small battery charger left on the vehicle overnight.
All sounds good as long as we now agree to use water in the battery and
not in the gas tank! :)
--Winston
Pszemol
> Fat Moe wrote:
>
> (...)
>
>> The question now is how much time,effort and money a person wants to
>> spend on an old car when it might not do any good if it gets that cold
>> again.
>
> It's a question of 'need' not 'want', so much. We've all been there.
> In this case, draining the water and compromised gasoline out of the
> car, flushing fresh gasoline through the system and replacing the
> fuel filter is the proper thing to do. Methods of draining the tank
> shown on the net range from the improbable to the downright dangerous.
>
> Never having done it, I advise that the proper method involves a tow
> truck and a qualified professional in a well-equipped shop.
> That is *so* much cheaper than an ambulance ride and 4 weeks in ICU.
Aren't you here little bit overly dramatic with this ICU comment? :-)))
As I said before, the fuel in Illinois contains alcohol so it doesn't
really stick well to your story of water+ice slushing in my tank, does it?
The products you can buy in Autozone to remedy water in the fuel
problem are made with isopropyl alcohol as their main ingredient...
Considering the fuel sold in Illinois contains an addition of 10% of
alcohol, which makes up to a 1.5 gallon on 15 gallons tank of fuel,
adding 11 ounces of isopropyl alcohol to a tank of gas would
probably make unnoticable or negledgable results...
Last time I refueled on January 12th and I made only 90 miles so
I have almost full tank of gas, more than 2/3 of volume, I guess.
But maybe I am missing something here - what do you think?
Fat Moe
my gasoline from a place that sells Top Tier gasoline for the old Camry.
Pszemol
news:497456c9$0$5479$bbae...@news.suddenlink.net...
> spend on an old car when it might not do any good if it gets that cold
> again.
Agree... I am not happy spending money on this car if I am not
guaranteed success. I want to avoid doing things "just in case"
when the true root cause of the problem was not identified yet.
> I'd say put a bottle of rubbing alcohol in the tank to emulsify any water
> and drive it.
Also, nobody seems to pick up the subject of gasoline containing
already 10% of alcohol and how does it affect water content in fuel.
Does adding a 10-12oz of rubbing alcohol help when the 15 gallons
of fuel already contains about 1.5 gallons of alcohol? If so, how?
I do not get it.
Pszemol
> I think..... until there is no more cold weather this year I'd be buying
> my gasoline from a place that sells Top Tier gasoline for the old Camry.
I took your suggestion and read about toptier gasoline...
What I found is that the difference is in the amount of detergent
compared to other gasoline types. The reason for more detergent
is to reduce deposits and lower emissions...
I am not sure how increased amount of detergents could help
here with starting my vehicle in colder weather.
Would you care expanding on this issue?
Winston
Could you write up their responses from your interview of each one
of them, please?
Thanks!
--Winston
Winston
> "Winston" <Win...@bigbrother.net> wrote in message
> news:gl28m...@news1.newsguy.com...
(...)
>> Never having done it, I advise that the proper method involves a tow
>> truck and a qualified professional in a well-equipped shop.
>> That is *so* much cheaper than an ambulance ride and 4 weeks in ICU.
>
> Aren't you here little bit overly dramatic with this ICU comment? :-)))
Um. No actually. I don't want to discuss it, either.
> As I said before, the fuel in Illinois contains alcohol so it doesn't
> really stick well to your story of water+ice slushing in my tank, does it?
You appear to imply that by adding 10% alcohol to gasoline, we create
a magical substance that converts any quantity of added water to gasoline.
You don't seriously mean that, do you? :)
Couldn't I just throw a gallon of alcohol in your gas tank, add nine
gallons of water and save you big bucks on gasoline?
Can you loan me a nice suit for our appointment with the Nobel Committee?
http://nobelprize.org/prize_awarders/chemistry/committee.html
> The products you can buy in Autozone to remedy water in the fuel
> problem are made with isopropyl alcohol as their main ingredient...
> Considering the fuel sold in Illinois contains an addition of 10% of
> alcohol, which makes up to a 1.5 gallon on 15 gallons tank of fuel,
> adding 11 ounces of isopropyl alcohol to a tank of gas would
> probably make unnoticable or negledgable results...
All the more reason to drain the water and other gunk out of the
tank. Emulsified or not, there is an upper limit to the amount of
water that you can put in your gas and still expect the car to run
properly.
> Last time I refueled on January 12th and I made only 90 miles so
> I have almost full tank of gas, more than 2/3 of volume, I guess.
>
> But maybe I am missing something here - what do you think?
Nothing important. Just some water and other yuckys in your gas tank.
--Winston
Winston
(...)
> If we assume typo, whould this method of pumping gas cause massive
> flooding on the engine?
With the engine running? No.
> That would go against the advice to keeping
> throttle plate open with gas pedal pressed. How could pumping
> gas help when you are so against it because it causes flooding?
Nursing a *running* engine to warm-up with the accelerator does not
cause flooding. Tromping on the gas pedal before the car starts
can cause flooding.
> On the other side, brakes could have something to do with vacuum in
> the intake manifold, so whatever that person described could be right.
> Let's say the power brakes vacuum reservoir was leaking and when
> pressing brakes now you have to use vacuum from the intake, you could
> be influencing other vacuum-controlled devices with pumping brakes
Occam's Razor:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor
1) Pumping the brakes would tend to *reduce* manifold vacuum.
2) Carburated cars are dependent on manifold vacuum or a reasonable
facsimile to run. We were discussing fuel injected cars, which
don't depend on manifold vacuum for atomization of the fuel.
> I am not sure if I understand your reasoning.
Consider that a car that is not currently running is different
from a car that is currently running. Can we agree on that much?
(...)
> How do I clean it? Do I soak it in carburetor cleaner or something?
Get the water out of your gas tank first and see if that helps.
Let's not rebuild the transmission to fix a hill climbing issue
if the real problem is that all four tires are flat. :)
(...)
>> Looks like the dashpot responsible for air-fuel mixture adjustment
>> to reduce HC and CO emission on deceleration.
>> Probably does not need adjustment.
>> http://www.autozone.com/az/cds/en_us/0900823d/80/13/eb/16/0900823d8013eb16/repairInfoPages.htm
>>
>
> To quote their words:
> "This system is only applicable to the 1989-91 2VZ-FE engines."
That is probably right. What is that part in your car, then?
I googled "throttle plate opener" and got one hit from an anonymous poster.
Now I wonder who that poster might have been? :)
Even the Toyota documentation describes that part as a dashpot:
http://www.schmooot.com/docs/camry/files/Emission_Control.pdf
Manufacturer's mix and match components all the time.
Somehow they reserve their most accurate troubleshooting information
for their own service facilities. No idea why that would be. :)
--Winston
john...@hotmail.com
mentioned with the rough idle. Especially with the relatively warmer
temperatures that you were able to at least get the engine to run. I
think Winston has a point that your engine simply maybe trying to burn
water. Water collects the lowest part of the fuel system (heavier than
gas),so unless it's got a lot of water, letting the engine run would
help use up the contaminated portion.
As far as how to quickly use up the contaminated portion -- perhaps do
what Winston suggested in his latest post -- try to blow it out of the
system while the engine is still running. I don't think we need to
talk about other alternatives of working with fuel at this point,
besides IMO, handling fuel should be kept to a minimum.
You wouldn't need fuel line deicer if you have "ethanol blended
reformulated gasoline", according to US EPA.
(scroll down http://www.epa.gov/reg5oair/mobile/snowmo.htm to read "Be
aware of what type of fuel you are using when adding fuel line
deicers.").
I know some Fords have warning lights telling you "water in fuel".
That would have saved a ton of time. ;) But I guess we'll assume
water related for now and try to run it out of the system. Just
john...@hotmail.com
Jan 19 12:38am message.
john...@hotmail.com
colored bolts in the following picture holds the bi-metal spring (like
a thermostat) that helps open the IAC valve when cold. This tells us
that it's a duty cycle controlled actuator, which really stinks and
cost a lot of owners money.
http://info.rockauto.com/SMP/SMPDetail3.html?AC207.html
The actuator/connector portion on the opposite end is actually a duty
cycle controlled actuator (easier to think of the pulse-width
modulated chassis fans in your computers while not the same). It's not
a stepper motor.
Toyota should go back to the older stepper motor design, IMO.
On Jan 19, 7:46 am, Winston <Wins...@bigbrother.net> wrote:
> Pszemol wrote:
> > <johngd...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
Winston
> BTW, as far as the 5SFE IAC goes, the housing under the three gold
> colored bolts in the following picture holds the bi-metal spring (like
> a thermostat) that helps open the IAC valve when cold. This tells us
> that it's a duty cycle controlled actuator, which really stinks and
> cost a lot of owners money.
>
> http://info.rockauto.com/SMP/SMPDetail3.html?AC207.html
>
> The actuator/connector portion on the opposite end is actually a duty
> cycle controlled actuator (easier to think of the pulse-width
> modulated chassis fans in your computers while not the same). It's not
> a stepper motor.
>
> Toyota should go back to the older stepper motor design, IMO.
More like an open-loop servo motor then. Thanks for the clarification!
--Winston
john...@hotmail.com
time* using the *same pump* would exhibit similar symptoms. Ask
around?
However, Hondas typically use a return loop fuel system, so unused gas
goes back to the tank and the gas (or any water) is probably mixed
very well. Toyotas typically use return-less line, I think 5SFE is
this case.
Also, some guesses here, the car's gas tank pickup location may make a
difference. The large Honda in-tank filter with ports near the top may
mean some water gets to stay at the filter's bottom section while
getting diluted by ethanol blended gas passing by (?). Not sure.
john...@hotmail.com
Read 3rd paragraph from the Motor.com article below and look at the
photo. The yellow arrow points to the "throttle opener" as described.
http://www.motor.com/magazine/pdfs/012000_07.pdf
On Jan 19, 12:32 pm, Winston <Wins...@bigbrother.net> wrote:
> >> Looks like the dashpot responsible for air-fuel mixture adjustment
> >> to reduce HC and CO emission on deceleration.
> >> Probably does not need adjustment.
> >>http://www.autozone.com/az/cds/en_us/0900823d/80/13/eb/16/0900823d801...
john...@hotmail.com
affirm the water-in-fuel scenario.
john...@hotmail.com
throttle opener like the one described in Jan 2000 Motor.com
article ;) ;) ;), that's why the screw will NEVER touch with the
engine running. One is the EVAP vent port, coming from the canister.
you'll see a hose with a vacuum switching valve upstream.
The other two I believe are the ports leading to the EGR modulator.
These provide two levels of signals as to the degree teh throttle
plate is opened. It's a really cheap design, but I also believe EGR
valve and IAC should be stepper motor controlled (better torque
characteristics).
Fat Moe
Winston
> I don't think this is the "dashpot" related to HC and CO emissions.
> Read 3rd paragraph from the Motor.com article below and look at the
> photo. The yellow arrow points to the "throttle opener" as described.
>
> http://www.motor.com/magazine/pdfs/012000_07.pdf
Bingo!
I stand corrected. It very closely resembles the 'dashpot' both in
appearance and location. I see several cites for that part under
the 'throttle opener' name. I was mistaken.
Thanks for the information!
--Winston
Pszemol
news:bb4a7f71-e278-4a5e...@o4g2000pra.googlegroups.com...
> If that's the case, one would expect cars fueled around the *same
> time* using the *same pump* would exhibit similar symptoms. Ask
> around?
Exactly my point. I asked around and nobody else had problems.
So the fuel line icing story is not very convincing for me...
1. I am using reformulated fuel which prevents fuel line icing
2. Other people using the same fuel, including my own Accord, did not have
fuel line iced.
3. I had ongoing problems with IAC causing problems idling half warmed
engine so the state of other sensors/valves can be suspected to be bad or
marginal in this old car.
I am voting for some strange combination of marginal input from sensors or
malfunction of a valve at the -4F weather was the reason for initial
problems with starting. Then, after several failed attempts my engine got
flooded which made further attempts impossible. My initial starting attempts
were made remotely with the remote starter. Each start makes 4 short
attempts and when first failed, I used remote starter again. So before I
even sat in the car Thursday, engine made already 8 failed starting
attempts.
Later, during the weekend, with me removing plugs and venting engine plus
several attempts with gas pedal pressed fully down cleared the flooding
condition. By that time weather was much nicer and temps in mid twenties, so
input from sensors and functionality of valves was back to normal and engine
started.
How does this story sound?
> However, Hondas typically use a return loop fuel system, so unused gas
> goes back to the tank and the gas (or any water) is probably mixed
> very well. Toyotas typically use return-less line, I think 5SFE is
> this case.
>
> Also, some guesses here, the car's gas tank pickup location may make a
> difference. The large Honda in-tank filter with ports near the top may
> mean some water gets to stay at the filter's bottom section while
> getting diluted by ethanol blended gas passing by (?). Not sure.
How involved is the fuel pump removal procedure in my toyota?
Can I visually inspect interior of the gas tank after I remove fuel pump?
Would I see this ice/water slush on the bottom if it exists there
regardless of usage of reformulated gasoline?
Pszemol
news:ade9118e-0fc9-481d...@s9g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
> Besides the one going to the throttle opener, now did I mention the
> throttle opener like the one described in Jan 2000 Motor.com
> article ;) ;) ;), that's why the screw will NEVER touch with the
> engine running.
It is clear now... thanks.
> One is the EVAP vent port, coming from the canister.
> you'll see a hose with a vacuum switching valve upstream.
Can this malfunction ? And what woudl be the symptom?
> The other two I believe are the ports leading to the EGR modulator.
> These provide two levels of signals as to the degree teh throttle
> plate is opened. It's a really cheap design, but I also believe EGR
> valve and IAC should be stepper motor controlled (better torque
> characteristics).
I see...
Pszemol
news:435488aa-4733-4873...@r37g2000prr.googlegroups.com...
> I don't think this is the "dashpot" related to HC and CO emissions.
> Read 3rd paragraph from the Motor.com article below and look at the
> photo. The yellow arrow points to the "throttle opener" as described.
>
> http://www.motor.com/magazine/pdfs/012000_07.pdf
I have found it also in the service manual.
Page 205, chapter 3. INSPECT AND ADJUST THROTTLE OPENER
http://www.camrystuff.com/manuals/Gen3/eg1.pdf
Pszemol
news:ac4bd819-716b-458f...@n33g2000pri.googlegroups.com...
> Ok, so it may not be the IAC or other electronics issues as we
> mentioned with the rough idle. Especially with the relatively warmer
> temperatures that you were able to at least get the engine to run. I
> think Winston has a point that your engine simply maybe trying to burn
> water. Water collects the lowest part of the fuel system (heavier than
> gas),so unless it's got a lot of water, letting the engine run would
> help use up the contaminated portion.
>
> As far as how to quickly use up the contaminated portion -- perhaps do
> what Winston suggested in his latest post -- try to blow it out of the
> system while the engine is still running. I don't think we need to
> talk about other alternatives of working with fuel at this point,
> besides IMO, handling fuel should be kept to a minimum.
>
> You wouldn't need fuel line deicer if you have "ethanol blended
> reformulated gasoline", according to US EPA.
> (scroll down http://www.epa.gov/reg5oair/mobile/snowmo.htm to read "Be
> aware of what type of fuel you are using when adding fuel line
> deicers.").
>
>
> I know some Fords have warning lights telling you "water in fuel".
> That would have saved a ton of time. ;) But I guess we'll assume
> water related for now and try to run it out of the system. Just
I am confused again...
At the begining of your message you state that Winston idea
of my engine suffered from ice blockage is convincing and later
in your message you point me to the link where they clearly
say the reformulated gasoline containing ethanol I am using
does prevent fuel from icing. To quote text you linked above:
"If you are using reformulated gasoline that contains ethanol,
you do not need to add a fuel line deicer. In fact, manufacturers
discourage the use of fuel line deicers with ethanol blended
reformulated gasoline because the ethanol in the reformulated
gasoline already prevents fuel line icing."
So knowing I am using gasoline with ethanol which prevents fuel
line icing you still suggesting that fuel line icing was my problem.
Am I missing something here or this reasoning does not hold?
Pszemol
news:05a8ad5c-c4ac-478d...@w24g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
> BTW, as far as the 5SFE IAC goes, the housing under the three gold
> colored bolts in the following picture holds the bi-metal spring (like
> a thermostat) that helps open the IAC valve when cold. This tells us
> that it's a duty cycle controlled actuator, which really stinks and
> cost a lot of owners money.
>
> http://info.rockauto.com/SMP/SMPDetail3.html?AC207.html
>
> The actuator/connector portion on the opposite end is actually a duty
> cycle controlled actuator (easier to think of the pulse-width
> modulated chassis fans in your computers while not the same). It's not
> a stepper motor.
>
> Toyota should go back to the older stepper motor design, IMO.
So how this thing breaks?
Can I disassemble it and clean it to fix it?
Winston
> "Pszemol" <Psz...@PolBox.com> wrote in message
> news:gl1aig...@poczta.onet.pl...
>> I am just back home after I left it idling - will see if it drives OK.
>
> It drove like nothing has happened last couple of days...
> Runs as usual.
You're welcome.
--Winston
Fat Moe
post.
Pszemol
> I sounds like you should have mentioned the remote starter
> in the first post.
Why?
Pszemol
:-)
I am sure if the temperature outside were -10F again
I would have problems starting again: we have not fixed
anything in my car, after all...
Winston
At last, we have complete agreement.
:)
--Winston
Fat Moe
runs for a couple of seconds each time start is attempted, things like
this can lead to a flooding condition. Another thing is when you pulled
the spark plug wires off they can be damaged if the boot sticks to the
plug and you pull the wire off by the wire instead of the boot.
And.......
A good strong battery, clean cable connections would probably help as
much as anything.
And......
I think a few tanks of Top Tier gasoline would do your old car a lot
of good.
How far do you normally drive the car? Does it have plenty of time
running at normal operating temp?
Pszemol
> Pszemol wrote:
>> "Fat Moe" <Fat...@BubbleWorld.Com> wrote in message
>> news:4976449f$0$5498$bbae...@news.suddenlink.net...
>>> I sounds like you should have mentioned the remote starter
>>> in the first post.
>>
>> Why?
> Leaky fuel injectors, leaking cold start enrichment valve, fuel pump runs
> for a couple of seconds each time start is attempted, things like this can
> lead to a flooding condition.
OK, but I still wonder why the car which starts every time, ever day
from the remote start did not start that morning. It could not be that
flooding was original condition - it could be result of not starting.
I am trying to find out the reason for initial not starting.
Anybody has a method to determine this initial reason?
> Another thing is when you pulled the spark plug wires off
> they can be damaged if the boot sticks to the plug and you pull the wire
> off by the wire instead of the boot.
> And.......
> A good strong battery, clean cable connections would probably help as
> much as anything.
Yes, they can be damaged but I have not damaged them.
I know how to deal with spark plug wires...
Also, battery was cranking strong, as described...
Why do we even touch the subject of things which are already
checked to be good? Can we focus on helping me find the
initial reason for car not starting that morning? Is it even
possible to determine after the fact?
> And......
> I think a few tanks of Top Tier gasoline would do your old car a lot of
> good.
It gets more than few tanks of Top Tier gasoline from time to time
when my employer does not stick to price trends on the street and his
gas is equal or higher price so I have cheaper fuel at Shell or Chevron
This did not prevent problems with starting last week...
Few tanks of this fuel probably will not do miracles on a car with
250k on its odometer.
> How far do you normally drive the car? Does it have plenty of time
> running at normal operating temp?
The car has very mixed usage - every day to work is only 2x3 or 4x3
miles, but it makes frequent trips afternoons and weekends lasting
from 30 minutes to 90 minutes. So while not every day, at least couple
of times per week it has the time to run at the normal temperature.
The car is used heavily, every day. Last week was the first time in
its whole history that it failed me and did not start for other reason
than trivial an old/discharged battery. I do not want it to repeat :-)
Please help me the reson for this car not starting.
Pszemol
However, the goal of this thread was to find the cause
my car did not start and then try to guide fixing it.
It would be cool if we could agree in this subject.
I know your hypothesis was I have water in my fuel
but - can we confirm it somehow?
What if I take a sample of the fuel from my tank and
measure its density? :)
Pszemol
> "Fat Moe" <Fat...@BubbleWorld.Com> wrote in message
> news:4976f335$0$5455$bbae...@news.suddenlink.net...
>> Pszemol wrote:
>>> "Fat Moe" <Fat...@BubbleWorld.Com> wrote in message
>>> news:4976449f$0$5498$bbae...@news.suddenlink.net...
>>>> I sounds like you should have mentioned the remote starter
>>>> in the first post.
>>>
>>> Why?
>> Leaky fuel injectors, leaking cold start enrichment valve, fuel pump runs
>> for a couple of seconds each time start is attempted, things like this
>> can lead to a flooding condition.
>
> OK, but I still wonder why the car which starts every time, ever day
> from the remote start did not start that morning. It could not be that
> flooding was original condition - it could be result of not starting.
>
> I am trying to find out the reason for initial not starting.
> Anybody has a method to determine this initial reason?
My coworker had a crazy idea which he expressed in short words
like this: "IT WAS TO BLOODY COLD TO START", yes, he is Brit :-)
And he could be right... Let's say there was NOTHING wrong with
the car, there was no ice in the fuel or anything like this...
It was just bloody cold, way too cold for the remote start to work.
Especially that I do not have tachometer hooked up to the remote
starter, so it does not know how long to crank - it simply make 4
blind short cranks, which were way too short for that temperature...
And then, when I left home after 2 sets of 4 short cranks it could
be too late and engine got flooded. Does it make sense ?
So if I see that low temperatures again I will not use remote starter,
just try to start it manualy and crank longer with maybe holding gas
pedal to clear flooding condition....
I think I am ready to move to Calgary now ;-)
Fat Moe
when the temp was below something or the other. Vapor pressure of
gasoline stuff. I think your English friend probably had it right
though, to cold for that car because of whatever. Slightly leaky valves
or using the remote start, but I bet you can get it going now on those
cold days since you are aware of the possible flooding problem.
Pszemol
> GM once had a bulletin out and it said a certain engine would not start
> when the temp was below something or the other. Vapor pressure of
> gasoline stuff.
Interesting...
Do you know what is the "normal operating temperature"
for cars how are they designed to run?
I know there is a working temperature window listed for
electronics (i.e for outdoor electronics it should work between
-40 deg C ... +70 deg C - I wonder what is this rating for cars...
I have to check my manual, maybe they list it there.
> I think your English friend probably had it right though,
> to cold for that car because of whatever. Slightly leaky valves or using
> the remote start, but I bet you can get it going now on
> those cold days since you are aware of the possible flooding problem.
YES, and thank you guys very much for making me aware of it.
john...@hotmail.com
in post 1997 models. The then newer, defective canister design had the
habit of disintegrating on the inside and sending carbon dust all over
the EVAP system. This plugs things up and would require the
replacement of the entire canister assembly, two VSVs and hoses ($$$$
$). There was a TSB on this. (And I never believed the fuel cap thing,
that thing was fine).
john...@hotmail.com
we're discussing these. Ethanol serves as an additive, so EPA says
typically that's good enough in the typical situation, however, it is
possible that the amount of water introduced into your tank exceeded
the diluting capacity of the ethanol content.
For example, each gallon of 10% ethanol blend can hold about 2 oz of
water. But what's the freezing point of water/ethanol blend? (Of
antifreeze, etc, etc?)
john...@hotmail.com
The carbon cause the rotary valve to stick. And minute magnetic force
from the duty-cycled coils doesn't have enough torque to overcome it.
And then the IAC sticks shut, causing low RPMs and stalls.
Cleaning appears to work, so replacement isn't necessary. Carefully
rotate the valve with a small screwdriver and use an old toothbrush
and a throttle body cleaner (unlike brake cleaners, TB cleaners have
lubricants) to clean off as much carbon as you can from the rotary
valve. Avoid getting solvent into the electrical side. You might want
to get a new IAC gasket (~$2 Autozone). I have 2 Harbor Freight hose
clamps for the little coolant hoses, but HF no longer sells those nice
little clamps made out of bent, springy thick gauge steel rod.
Just google: camry iac cleaning. I say the duty-cycled IAC valves
stink.
On Jan 20, 8:18 am, "Pszemol" <Psze...@PolBox.com> wrote:
> > BTW, as far as the 5SFE IAC goes
[snip]
john...@hotmail.com
after this, fuel line icing is probably the most likely cause. Unless
other marginal conditions came into play. That's a reason why I
suggested checking some basic sensors, like ECT and MAP. Some older
ECUs had been known to have these marginal sensor problems at
extremely low temps.
But Fat Moe is right. There are other reasons for non-start and the
later flooding. Frozen stuck IAC (no air but all fuel)? Fuel/water-
fouled spark plugs (grounded plugs and add fuel mixture)? Non-
functioning thermo-vacuum valve that shuts cold air out of the
engine?
It's interesting that Camry didn't start with slight pressure on the
accelerator. Which may suggest that the problem is upstream with all
other things remain the same. So check thermo-vacuum valve?
BTW, the EVAP solenoid was used in later years, the thermo-vacuum
valve was for the 1995. Now, can we duplicate the problem by bypassing
the valve?
john...@hotmail.com
cold day when mixture can be on the rich side, we (temporarily) bypass
TVV, would that duplicate the non-start problem and later lead to
flooding? See "Tony the Tiger" posted on TN:
I have tested this myself as well by connecting the EVAP directly onto
the port (bypassed the TVV because it was broken), and the engine
could barely idle... I am actually running no EVAP right now because
my engine bay had no room to fit the canister :D
Now the discussion suggested that the P port on the throttle body
shouldn't draw any vapor during idle. But this is one way to enrich
mixture and there's one way to find out, with all necessary fuel-
related precautions, of course.
Pszemol
news:c49548d4-db8f-4c3b...@u18g2000pro.googlegroups.com...
> I included the US EPA page on fuel line deicing additives because
> we're discussing these. Ethanol serves as an additive, so EPA says
> typically that's good enough in the typical situation, however, it is
> possible that the amount of water introduced into your tank exceeded
> the diluting capacity of the ethanol content.
>
> For example, each gallon of 10% ethanol blend can hold about 2 oz of
> water. But what's the freezing point of water/ethanol blend? (Of
> antifreeze, etc, etc?)
I see...
What is the source of water in my gas tank, byt the way?
Is this just humid air condensation or something more?
When I refuel, technically I am displacing air/vapors from
my gas tank, so there is usually no way "new" humid air
will go into the tank... What could be the source of water?
Pszemol
news:90199c17-82be-48a4...@v5g2000prm.googlegroups.com...
> Don't open the bimetal thermostat housing. It's calibrated.
>
> The carbon cause the rotary valve to stick. And minute magnetic force
> from the duty-cycled coils doesn't have enough torque to overcome it.
> And then the IAC sticks shut, causing low RPMs and stalls.
>
> Cleaning appears to work, so replacement isn't necessary. Carefully
> rotate the valve with a small screwdriver and use an old toothbrush
> and a throttle body cleaner (unlike brake cleaners, TB cleaners have
> lubricants) to clean off as much carbon as you can from the rotary
> valve. Avoid getting solvent into the electrical side. You might want
> to get a new IAC gasket (~$2 Autozone). I have 2 Harbor Freight hose
> clamps for the little coolant hoses, but HF no longer sells those nice
> little clamps made out of bent, springy thick gauge steel rod.
>
> Just google: camry iac cleaning. I say the duty-cycled IAC valves
> stink.
Thanks - that seems to be a nice weekend task to play with :-)
But I will wait a little longer for the sping in Chicago kick in.
john...@hotmail.com
That's why the conventional wisdom of not fueling when you see a
tanker truck. But once I saw filters (look like an engine oil filter
for all I know) on station pumps. So how valid that is these days I do
not know, at least sediment wise.
I don't think condensation, especially shortly after fueling, can
contribute so much to your problem. (Given that the engine works
before and after, I'd like to think it's a water-in-fuel problem
especially lightly open the throttle didn't work. Of course, this is
not to rule out an over-rich mixture, given that cold starts can be as
rich as 5:1 or even more. Plus the cold reduces vaporization.).
But everything is working now, so we'll probably leave it for another
day. Good luck! :)