Detroit auto makers try some new tricks
Ed
buyers to get over the fact that they're American cars...."
Wall Street Journal article: http://301url.com/c8x
larry moe 'n curly
Ed wrote:
Because US auto makers waited too long to stop making cars that looked
like furniture or copies of German or Japanese cars.
WickeddollŽ
"larry moe 'n curly" ...
I think it's cool. I'd love to drive an American car again, without having
to run it back and forth to the shop. Seriously, I'm willing to give them
another chance.
Natalie
Ted
I had two 05 Hondas: A civic hybrid and an Element. While both were
decent cars, their mileage left a lot to be desired; nowhere near what
was advertised. Because of that, I traded them both in a bought two
new Chevy Malibu SS's , a Maxx and the sedan. As far as I'm
concerned, at least to this point, they are the best running, most
comfortable cars I've ever owned...no more Japanese cars here.
Jim Higgins
I don't have the resources to take that gamble and maybe lose. Many
times burned I just cannot take the risk even though the potential of
the Chevy Volt did tempt me.
larry moe 'n curly
Wickeddoll® wrote:
I did that in 1992 and won't do it again. My car wasn't that bad,
but Ford's attitude toward defects was very different from Toyota's or
Nissan's, and they actually told me that lumpy body filler above the
front doors wasn't really a defect because every car of that model was
like that.
GoMavs
about how they are making their products better and stronger... that would
be a start...
"Ed" <fr...@spamexpire-200709.rodent.frell.theremailer.net> wrote in message
news:97a9ce027a1f3f8a...@msgid.frell.theremailer.net...
GoMavs
"Ted" <the_bu...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:1189896145.1...@50g2000hsm.googlegroups.com...
>I had two 05 Hondas: A civic hybrid and an Element. While both were
>decent cars, their mileage left a lot to be desired; nowhere near what
>was advertised. Because of that, I traded them both in a bought two
>new Chevy Malibu SS's , a Maxx and the sedan. As far as I'm
>concerned, at least to this point, they are the best running, most
>comfortable cars I've ever owned...no more Japanese cars here.
Enjoy that Malibu when its in the shop. I hate the feel of shop chairs. Hard
plastic and that little 12 inch TV in the waiting room.
BTW, you were concerned about fuel, so you went and bought a car that gets
18 mpg in the city?
Cathy F.
What mpgs do the Malibus get?
Cathy
WickeddollŽ
"Jim Higgins" ...
I'm watching the Ford Fusion. I think it has potential.
Natalie
WickeddollŽ
"Cathy F." ...
>
> "Ted"
"Wickeddoll®"
>> "larry moe 'n curly" ...
>>
>>
>>
>> > Ed wrote:
>>
>> >> "U.S. auto makers are building higher-quality cars, but they can't get
>> >> buyers to get over the fact that they're American cars...."
>>
>> >> Wall Street Journal article:http://301url.com/c8x
>>
>> > Because US auto makers waited too long to stop making cars that looked
>> > like furniture or copies of German or Japanese cars.
>>
>> I think it's cool. I'd love to drive an American car again, without
>> having
>> to run it back and forth to the shop. Seriously, I'm willing to give
>> them
>> another chance.
>>
>> Natalie
>
> I had two 05 Hondas: A civic hybrid and an Element. While both were
> decent cars, their mileage left a lot to be desired; nowhere near what
> was advertised. Because of that, I traded them both in a bought two
> new Chevy Malibu SS's , a Maxx and the sedan. As far as I'm
> concerned, at least to this point, they are the best running, most
> comfortable cars I've ever owned...no more Japanese cars here.
>
> What mpgs do the Malibus get?
>
> Cathy
>
>
>
Yeah, that doesn't sound very economical. But maybe he's talking about the
way the car feels/drives.
Natalie
WickeddollŽ
"larry moe 'n curly" ...
LMC
So you think they're irredeemable? I don't. I think they may have learned
to put the customer's needs first. At least I hope they do. Why would they
try the same shit that ruined them? That doesn't even make good business
sense.
Natalie
Cathy F.
"WickeddollŽ" <wickeddoll195...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:fch7b...@news.evilcabal.org...
>
> "Cathy F." ...
>>
>> "Ted"
> "WickeddollŽ"
That occurred to me, too. But, if he traded in the Element & Civic hybrid
because they didn't get the advertised mpg, then... ??? - the logic gets
lost, considering they must get better mileage than the Malibus. Plus, I'm
guessing the Maxx costs more than either of the Hondas. In which case a part
of the picture - which may've been a revised one - wasn't expressly stated
in the post.
Cathy
>
>
Cathy F.
I'm on the fence. They *must've* seen which way the wind was blowing in the
early-mid-70's, yet completely ignored it. I jumped ship, along with lots
of others.
Cathy
>
> Natalie
>
Bob H
pulling the same shit. They are being ruined by it. If they weren't
pulling the same shit all along they would not be in dire straights now.
Good business sense? It would be great if they had any at all.
They will not change until they are out of business. Buy that Fusion.
Trust me, its just another iteration of the SOS.
Mike
"Ashton Crusher" <de...@moore.net> wrote in message
news:sn2pe35va41pha00t...@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 15 Sep 2007 15:53:30 -0700, larry moe 'n curly
> <larrymo...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> remembered forever no matter how minor. But Toyota sells entire lines
> of cars with engines that sludge up and burn up and no one gives a
> rats ass.
That may be because when the American car companies have a problem they do
nothing about it, such as the leaking GM intake gaskets. When Toyota has a
problem they take care of it by extending the warranty or issuing a recall.
El Bandito
I own an american car. a '99 Grand Marquis LS.
Bought it used last year (82 thousand KM on it)
Now at 102 thousand KM, cost me a Coil On Plug and the corresponding
sparkplug. I also had to have 2 bolts replaced on the passenger side
flange (cat to y-pipe)
Now, I'll have to do the same to the driver's side (another 30$)
Prestone needs to be flushed, I'll be putting a bigger battery (has a
850AMP, I'll put in a bigger one and a beefier alternator for the sound
system), and some winter tires, (didn't like my all-wheater
Bridgestone's behavior last winter :)
that's about it...
2 Honda Civics destroyed themselves rear-ending me, I'll need to replace
the rear plastic bumper cover (badly scratched and broke where it screws
on the frame)
So much for Styrofoam Japanese bumpers :)
Oh, and I'll have to replace the car's lighter socket, it
short-circuited hitself to death last year...
--
Don't drink water, fish have sex in it!
Elmo P. Shagnasty
Jim Higgins <gordi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > I think it's cool. I'd love to drive an American car again, without having
> > to run it back and forth to the shop. Seriously, I'm willing to give them
> > another chance.
> >
> > Natalie
> >
> >
>
> I don't have the resources to take that gamble and maybe lose.
And that's what it comes down to, doesn't it? You'd think the union
fucks who built those cars would understand that concept, at least.
Maybe if they struck for "you need to design better cars so we'll have
jobs in the long term" instead of "just give us more money so we can do
nothing and go home with a paycheck", things would be different.
Risk $25K? With Detroit's track record? Yeah, right.
My father did. Back in 1995, after 15 years of cars from Japan Inc.
That 1995 Olds 88 was a piece of crap. He replaced it with a 98 Odyssey
from Honda, a car he has to this day. Beyond scheduled maintenance and
a new starter he got last week, it's been as dead reliable as--well, as
a Honda.
Dear Detroit: fuck off and die. Oh, and you union fucks who did this
to yourselves: go cry in your beer, if you can find someone to buy you
one. And then go fuck off and die.
WickeddollŽ
"Elmo P. Shagnasty"
> Jim Higgins :
DAYUM.
I thought *I* was cynical.
Natalie
Brent
> I own an american car. a '99 Grand Marquis LS.
>
> Bought it used last year (82 thousand KM on it)
That is an example of a rock solid American car, I have worked on quite
a few but it was always a starter at 100K miles or something that is a
wear item. My friend has a 02(I think) grand marquis and it's a nice
highway car.
Negatives? There is no legroom in the back and the thing doesn't handle
for shit. It isn't supposed to though.
b
gfulton
"El Bandito" <abu...@videotron.ca> wrote in message
news:Ho0Hi.21102$I11....@wagner.videotron.net...
'93 3/4 ton Chevy pickup, 6.5L turbodiesel, 232,000 miles. One starter, and
a cruise control servo went out. 1979, Jeddah, Saudi Arabia, 1970 Datsun,
that I maintained very well, mind you, spun a crank bearing and left me out
in the desert a long way from home. Datsun Land Cruiser, broke the front
differentrial U-joing, lost control of steering and damn near got me killed
a year later still in Jeddah. 1985 Chevrolet 1/2 ton pickiup, 6.2 diesel
that I put a Banks turbo on and drove hard. Had 228,000 on it after I gave
it to my oldest son and would still be running today, I imagine, if he
hadn't totaled it. Crushed the shit out of it in the rollover, but he
didn't have a scratch on him. The abolute worst cars I've ever owned were
Japanese. And the longest lived with the least amount of trouble were
American. Did have a very reliable German motorcycle, though.
Garrett Fulton
coach...@hotmail.com
As if "American cars" is such a bad thing.
truly sad.
coach...@hotmail.com
wrote:
Now wait-a=minute. I dont understand something here. I thought the
reason people stopped buying American cars was becasue they did NOT
have the looks of German or Japanese cars. Your saying the reason
people dont buy American cars is that they look TOO much like foreign.
Seems something is wrong, somewhere.
coach...@hotmail.com
Gosh, I drive mine right by the shop every day, dont even have to stop
there. Wonder what I'm doing right?
coach...@hotmail.com
>
I feel the same way about leaving GM and trying to buy another brand
of automobile. I just dont have the resources to take the gamble and
lose. Been buying them for over 30 years and all they do is run and
run, look nice, and get good gas milage. I wonder what I am doing
right and what you are doing wrong>
> - Show quoted text -
coach...@hotmail.com
wrote:
>
> - Show quoted text -
I'll give you credit here. You at least admit that Toyota's and
Nissan's DO have defects, while there are some here who claim they
NEVER have anythng go wrong with them.
coach...@hotmail.com
> "Ashton Crusher" <d...@moore.net> wrote in message
>
> news:sn2pe35va41pha00t...@4ax.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Sat, 15 Sep 2007 15:53:30 -0700, larry moe 'n curly
>
> - Show quoted text -
You gotta start reading posts here and elsewhere. How can Toyota EVER
be able to properly handle problems when they NEVER have problems to
begin with? If you believe things posted here, or articles written in
Comsumers Digest, then you know nothing ever goes wrong with these
Toyotas.
coach...@hotmail.com
wrote:
> In article <13eooaong12f...@corp.supernews.com>,
> Jim Higgins <gordian...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > I think it's cool. I'd love to drive an American car again, without having
> > > to run it back and forth to the shop. Seriously, I'm willing to give them
> > > another chance.
>
> > > Natalie
>
> > I don't have the resources to take that gamble and maybe lose.
>
> And that's what it comes down to, doesn't it? You'd think the union
> fucks who built those cars would understand that concept, at least.
> Maybe if they struck for "you need to design better cars so we'll have
> jobs in the long term" instead of "just give us more money so we can do
> nothing and go home with a paycheck", things would be different.
>
> Risk $25K? With Detroit's track record? Yeah, right.
>
> My father did. Back in 1995, after 15 years of cars from Japan Inc.
> That 1995 Olds 88 was a piece of crap. He replaced it with a 98 Odyssey
> from Honda, a car he has to this day. Beyond scheduled maintenance and
> a new starter he got last week, it's been as dead reliable as--well, as
> a Honda.
>
Here we go again with the same old BS from GM bashers who have nothing
better than to come to this site and attack.
Have owned no less than seven GM vehicles since 98 and "beyond
schedueld maintenance" have ALL been "dead reliable". Have never had
to replace a starter on any of them, so I guess I am one up on you
there.. I just wonder what I am doing right, or what you, and all the
other GM bashers who constantly come to this site and complain about
the problems they have had with their GM cars, are doing wrong?
Jim Higgins
There speaks Mike Hunter under another nym :-)
Bill Putney
> ...They routinely denied the sludge problem
> claiming the owners weren't changing the oil even when the owners had
> receipts for the work.
It is mind boggling how the public and especially the auto industry
itself trusts receipts on oil and filter changes. It's a dilemma that
dealers and third party companies often charge for oil and filter
changes without doing them, but I would not be surprised at all if the
sludging problems aren't to some significant degree due to oil changes
*not* being done even though receipts show that they were.
Combine that with the fact that some of the problem cars have a
questionable 7500 mile change interval specified, and it doesn't take a
rocket scientist to figure it out (15,000 miles or longer between oil
changes that have been fraudulently documented by the dealers and oil
change stores).
I can only conclude that the manufacturers know all of this, but they
cannot publicly bring up the fact that they know that customers are
being defrauded on oil and filter changes - often by their own dealers.
IMO the manufacturers are guilty on 2 counts: (1) Screwing the
customer when they have receipts instead of going after the fraudulent
dealers and companies, and (2) Covering for the fraudulent dealers and
oil change franchises - IOW take action against those dealers and
companies instead of screwing the innocent customer.
That's not to say that certain engines aren't more sensitive to longer
change intervals than others - that's indisputable IMO. The fraudulent
change documentation just makes it a huge problem.
Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')
Bill Putney
The last Mercury I owned ('96 Mystique), Ford had put wiring in the
entire enigne compartment with the wrong insulation material (All
Contours and Mystiques). The insulation literally turned to powder
after a few years - you can imagine the problems that caused. They had
a special program to replace the engine compartment wiring harnesses up
to 100k miles. Unfortunately, the program was not created and
publicized until many of those cars were past that.
Some O
"WickeddollŽ" <wickeddoll195...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I'm watching the Ford Fusion. I think it has potential.
I had the V6 Fusion as a one day rental, drove about 300 very fast
highway miles.
It impressed me very much, very well designed spacious body, very good
handling and power.
Steven Stone
You mean, like my friend with the new Honda with the pourous power
steering pump housing, that leaks fluid all over his driveway ?
WickeddollŽ
"Some O" >,
> "Wickeddoll®" :
>
>> I'm watching the Ford Fusion. I think it has potential.
>
> I had the V6 Fusion as a one day rental, drove about 300 very fast
> highway miles.
> It impressed me very much, very well designed spacious body, very good
> handling and power.
I'm waiting to see if it has any *long-term* problems, though. That's the
true test. I think it's safe to say that *any* vehicle will run well at
first.
Natalie
Some O
coach...@hotmail.com wrote:
> Here we go again with the same old BS from GM bashers who have nothing
> better than to come to this site and attack.
>
> Have owned no less than seven GM vehicles since 98 and "beyond
> schedueld maintenance" have ALL been "dead reliable". Have never had
> to replace a starter on any of them, so I guess I am one up on you
> there.. I just wonder what I am doing right, or what you, and all the
> other GM bashers who constantly come to this site and complain about
> the problems they have had with their GM cars, are doing wrong?
I gave up on GM cars when I started buying from Chrysler.
Yes many aspects of GM cars are very solid, but many aspects are
unreliable and GM does nothing about it.
Then we have the very poor handling and drivability of GM cars.
A few years ago I had a 2005 Impalla rental for two weeks and drove it a
good mix of highway and city.
A very spacious car, but it's drivability reminded me of cars of the
early 80s. An OK car for chugging along on straight flat roads.
No way I would even straight trade my 10 year older 1995 Chrysler
Concorde for it!
Some O
"WickeddollŽ" <wickeddoll195...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> "Some O" >,
> > "WickeddollŽ" :
That's very wise. Initial quality is just one aspect of quality.
I do the same, waiting at least one model year for a new design,
two+ model years if the drive train has been changed.
Sometimes it can be very difficult to determine if there is a
significant drive train change.
I've been stung by both GM and Chrysler recognizing when a significant
change was made and not waiting.
The internet is a great help here.
Chrysler now has a life time drive train warranty. That would not have
been of value with our Chrysler products since 1986. I had very bad
manual transmission problems with my 1981 TC3, thank goodness Chrysler
finally replaced it after the warranty because they didn't get it right
during the warranty.
It should have been of value when my wife's 2001 Sebring had the front
wheel bearings fail at only 30K miles and 3 months before the power
train warranty expired.
We then learned that wheel bearings are not part of the power train.
My, not all the power train is part of the power train!
WickeddollŽ
"Some O" <S...@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:SO-DDFCBF.13...@news.telus.net...
GAH!
I really hope for their sake they learn and grow from having their asses
handed to them by the American public. I don't remember domestic carmakers
hitting this much of a low in the past, so maybe this will be a big enough
black eye to make them realize they need to change their act.
Natalie
WickeddollŽ
"Steven Stone" ...
>
>
> You mean, like my friend with the new Honda with the pourous power
> steering pump housing, that leaks fluid all over his driveway ?
Has your friend contacted Honda directly regarding this? Not the dealer -
the company.
I've never owned a Honda, so I have no personal experience to share.
Everyone who owns a Honda *I've* ever known, loved theirs. Of course that's
a very narrow segment.
Also, is this a model-wide problem that people have battled without
resolution? Or did your friend just happen to get a badly built car?
Another factor is how well he/she maintained the car. That was apparently
an issue with the sludge thing for Toyota, but again, I have no personal
experience with sludge, not even the first Toyota we bought in 1987.
Natalie
WickeddollŽ
"Ashton Crusher"
"gfulton" >
> for her. She spent a fortune keeping them running. I told her to
> sell that Toyota trash and got her a AMC Concord at the State Auction
> for $800. (yeah this was a few years ago!!) We put a couple hundred in
> that Concord to bring it up to snuff and then she drove it for the
> next two years and didn't put another penny in it. Then sold it for
> $900.
OK, even *I* remember when Japanese cars were called "crapanese" or
"Jap-crap" - but unlike domestic automakers, they straightened up their act
and gave the people what they wanted. Yes, Japanese vehicles sometimes have
*big* problems - the difference is what they *do* about it. I can forgive a
company making mistakes, but I'm wary of them when they clearly don't care
about my concerns regarding my vehicle. Toyota has recalled my 2000 Echo
twice - each time before I noticed a problem myself (One for the brakes, the
other for the floor boards). Further, they nagged me until I took the car
back in. *THAT* is customer service.
Natalie
Jim Higgins
Actual customer service (Toyota/Honda/Etc.) verses lip service to
"customer service" (Detroit) is why Detroit is not even in the mind of a
lot of car buyers. Then there is the Weasel Interpretation of the
Chrysler powertrain warranty. What good is a warranty when the
manufacturer doesn't back it? Goodbye Detroit.
Ray O
Normally, the transmission is considered part of the powertrain.
> It should have been of value when my wife's 2001 Sebring had the front
> wheel bearings fail at only 30K miles and 3 months before the power
> train warranty expired.
> We then learned that wheel bearings are not part of the power train.
> My, not all the power train is part of the power train!
Wheel bearings are generally not considered part of the powertrain for
warranty purposes.
--
Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)
EdV
autoparts, which have same packaging and labels.
WickeddollŽ
"EdV" ..
> Ever heard of "Ja-fakes"? some people sell fake Made in Japan
> autoparts, which have same packaging and labels.
Nope, never heard of that. How do they pull that off?
Natalie
Ted Mittelstaedt
"Bill Putney" <bp...@kinez.net> wrote in message
news:5l4trmF...@mid.individual.net...
>
> I can only conclude that the manufacturers know all of this, but they
> cannot publicly bring up the fact that they know that customers are
> being defrauded on oil and filter changes - often by their own dealers.
> IMO the manufacturers are guilty on 2 counts: (1) Screwing the
> customer when they have receipts instead of going after the fraudulent
> dealers and companies, and (2) Covering for the fraudulent dealers and
> oil change franchises - IOW take action against those dealers and
> companies instead of screwing the innocent customer.
>
> That's not to say that certain engines aren't more sensitive to longer
> change intervals than others - that's indisputable IMO. The fraudulent
> change documentation just makes it a huge problem.
>
Bill your missing the point.
The idea works like this: The auto mfgr's wave the warranty over their
customers heads to threaten them to go to the dealerships for the oil
changes.
The dealerships rake in the bucks doing fradulent oil changes, selling
window
wipers and all kinds of crap. Then the car conks out and the customer takes
it to the dealer for warranty work and the factory doesen't pay the dealer
for
all the time the warranty work takes to do, so the raked-in big bucks are
spent on the warranty work.
The entire point of the system isn't to have a well-maintained car. The
entire
point of the system is to have a poorly maintained car that is in and out
of the shop all the time, so the dealerships have work to do, and the car is
so poorly maintained that 6 months after the customer has traded in the car,
(and 5 months after the dealership has re-sold the traded-in car) the car
conks out completely. In that way the auto makers insure that there isn't
a flood of good used vehicles on the market, depressing new car sale
prices, and they keep their dealerships happy with the service revenue.
Ted
dizzy
>Have owned no less than seven GM vehicles since 98 and "beyond
>schedueld maintenance" have ALL been "dead reliable". Have never had
>to replace a starter on any of them, so I guess I am one up on you
>there.
Seven (!) in 10 years? What, you trade up every 18 months? Even GM
knows to build their cars so that most of them make it through the
warrantee period...
dizzy
>They routinely denied the sludge problem
>claiming the owners weren't changing the oil even when the owners had
>receipts for the work.
So you claim. I've never seen any evidence that what you claim is
true.
WickeddollŽ
"Ashton Crusher"
"Wickeddoll®"
>> "gfulton" >
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>"El Bandito" <abu...@videotron.ca> wrote in message
>>>>news:Ho0Hi.21102$I11....@wagner.videotron.net...
> problem. We've had American cars by the hundreds in our fleet since
> forever. After about the mid-seventies we really have never had any
> problems with them. I've had numerous American cars over the years
> that I put well over 100K on and all any of them needed was the normal
> routine maintenance. That's not to suggest no one ever had a problem,
> there will always be some cars that something breaks on but it's
> really quite rare.
But the recalls came from Toyota directly, not the dealerships. How did
your vehicles perform at over 200 k, as Toyotas typically go? Our old
Celica had 280-something k on it when we *drove* it to the junkyard because
it was rusted out. Also, domestic large vehicles are apparently much better
than the "economy" ones. That's where I've heard the most complaints; that
domestic economy cars are no bargain. So I have high hopes for the Fusion
and a few other domestics that are out now.
>
> In my personal car experience, I've had some experiences at dealers
> that would make me not want to buy again if I had to depend on that
> dealer.
I've heard that complaint from several folks regarding Toyotas, too. We had
a really bad experience at the Autofair in New Hampshire. They treated us
like shit, but since they were not the first dealer we've ever dealt with,
we knew it was *them* and not the vehicle.
Natalie
Edwin Pawlowski
"dizzy" <di...@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
>
> Seven (!) in 10 years? What, you trade up every 18 months? Even GM
> knows to build their cars so that most of them make it through the
> warrantee period...
>
I've done that when we had 4 drivers in the house.
WickeddollŽ
"Ashton Crusher"
, coach...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
"WickeddollŽ"
wrote:
>>> "larry moe 'n curly" ...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> > Ed wrote:
>>>
>>> >> "U.S. auto makers are building higher-quality cars, but they can't
>>> >> get
>>> >> buyers to get over the fact that they're American cars...."
>>>
>>> >> Wall Street Journal article:http://301url.com/c8x
>>>
>>> > Because US auto makers waited too long to stop making cars that looked
>>> > like furniture or copies of German or Japanese cars.
>>>
>>> I think it's cool. I'd love to drive an American car again, without
>>> having
>>> to run it back and forth to the shop. Seriously, I'm willing to give
>>> them
>>> another chance.
>>>
>>> Natalie
>>
>>there. Wonder what I'm doing right?
>
>
> Every Toyota dealer I've seen has just as large a service area as the
> American dealers. If Toyotas never need work, what's up with that???
First of all, I've never heard *anyone* say Toyotas *never* have problems.
Secondly, I only take my car to Toyota dealerships for regular maintenance.
I've been burned too many times at other places.
Natalie
WickeddollŽ
"Ashton Crusher" ...
"WickeddollŽ"
>>>> "gfulton" >
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>"El Bandito" <abu...@videotron.ca> wrote in message
>>>>>>news:Ho0Hi.21102$I11....@wagner.videotron.net...
> thru 3 ford vans all of which went over 250K on the original engines
> and transmissions. Of the three, one of them had the transmission go
> out at 260K, the other two were still running great when sent to the
> auction.
>
*snip*
Those are *large* vehicles, that you've mentioned. Any economy-class >200 K
with no major problems?
I've already acknowledged that domestic large vehicles are often superior.
Natalie
n5hsr
"Edwin Pawlowski" <e...@snet.net> wrote in message
news:fuCHi.7642$JD....@newssvr21.news.prodigy.net...
We've got 5 drivers now in the extended family and we have 4 Toyotas, 3
Corollas and 3 95's All of the Corollas are AE10x.
At one point we had 3 TE7x Corollas and one TE31 Corolla. We've also helped
a friend buy a BR12x Corolla, and I just recently sold a 93 Corolla AE109E
with 230,000 miles on it. Our first Toyota was a TA12 Carina that we
managed to put 36,000 miles a year on, until we finally bought a second car
(the aforementioned TE31 Corolla) I also owned a 1501 KE30 along the way
somewhere and 2 different TE72's.
Charles of Schaumburg
80 Knight
news:fcmteu...@news.evilcabal.org...
>
> "Ashton Crusher" ...
<Snip>
>>>But the recalls came from Toyota directly, not the dealerships. How did
>>>your vehicles perform at over 200 k, as Toyotas typically go?
>>
>> We have many vehicles that go over 200K. One of my areas has gone
>> thru 3 ford vans all of which went over 250K on the original engines
>> and transmissions. Of the three, one of them had the transmission go
>> out at 260K, the other two were still running great when sent to the
>> auction.
>>
>
> *snip*
>
> Those are *large* vehicles, that you've mentioned. Any economy-class >200
> K with no major problems?
>
> I've already acknowledged that domestic large vehicles are often superior.
Hey again, Natalie! Nice to see you again. I was trying not to get into
this conversation (:-P) but I just had to point out that a friends Saturn
went to almost 400,000 Km's, and was still running when she got rid of
it...You know how much I like GM, but even *I* don't like Saturn's!
WickeddollŽ
"80 Knight" ...
> "WickeddollŽ" ...
Hey, 80!
Yeah, now that you've mentioned it, I remember that people used to love
Saturns, but apparently they've gone downhill?
Natalie
Joe
>
> I really hope for their sake they learn and grow from having their asses
> handed to them by the American public. I don't remember domestic
> carmakers hitting this much of a low in the past, so maybe this will be a
> big enough black eye to make them realize they need to change their act.
>
> Natalie
You know, I don't see that happening. Here's why.
1. The economy is booming, but GM and Ford are both teetering on the brink
of bankruptcy. Any slowdown in the economy (which seems overdue) is going
to push them over the edge. After they've gone bankrupt, they'll be in such
fantastic financial shape they won't need to improve anything for a long
time.
2. There's no talk at all of doing something about the moral character of
their dealers. It was the dealers, more than the cars, that made so many
enemies. If your car broke down a few times, a good dealer could have
smoothed all that over. I may be wrong, but I'm thinking most people that
hate GM/Ford/Chrysler wouldn't go into the dealership no matter what kind of
hardware is there.
WickeddollŽ
"Joe" ...
>
> "WickeddollŽ" ...
Well, I can't speak for the haters, but I try never to condemn the product
because of the salesman. I think that's a pretty narrow-minded way to look
at things.
Natalie
Joe
> but Ford's attitude toward defects was very different from Toyota's or
> Nissan's, and they actually told me that lumpy body filler above the
> front doors wasn't really a defect because every car of that model was
> like that.
>
> LMC
>
> So you think they're irredeemable? I don't. I think they may have
> learned to put the customer's needs first. At least I hope they do. Why
> would they try the same shit that ruined them? That doesn't even make
> good business sense.
You have got to be kidding. How long do you think Detroit's slide has
taken? Think hard. When did the people of the US start to get mad? Pick
your date. Did they do /anything/ of a sane nature to stop? Anything at
all? The Chevy Vega, perhaps? Maybe the Oldsmobile Diesel? How about the
Chrysler k-car? It's just been one pile of junk after another.
GM has borrowed almost $200 Billion dollars. Using that money to invest in
their future, they've made absolutely no progress in market share, revenue,
profitability, nothing they can use to have a future....... It's just a
death spiral. At the dealers, it's business as usual, only slower.
Joe
"Ashton Crusher" <de...@moore.net> wrote in message
news:sn2pe35va41pha00t...@4ax.com...
>
> Why is it that every defect that ever occurs in an American car is
> remembered forever no matter how minor. But Toyota sells entire lines
> of cars with engines that sludge up and burn up and no one gives a
> rats ass.
Exactly right. Ask yourself- Why? Why is that? Something is going on, but
what?
Is it the media? Why do the media like foreign cars? You can at least come
up with a theory. Were Americans cars really that bad 30 years ago (I can
answer that - yes). But then again, maybe it's the dealers. If nothing
else, the domestic dealers have had more time to make people mad.
WickeddollŽ
"Ashton Crusher"
"Wickeddoll®"
>>>>>> "gfulton" >
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>"El Bandito"
> point, the larger, RWD usually are more robust. But we've driven many
> mid-sized, like Chevy Celebrities back in the mid 80's (they were
> almost indestructible), and more recently Lumina's and Taurus's. Many
> go well into the 150K region though before getting sold.
I used to work with a doc who only bought Taurus(es?). He's a country doc
out in the boonies (still makes house calls) and he drove those things to
hell and back. He was once shot at by an elderly patient who forgot he was
coming to see her. He left the bullet holes there, and somehow managed to
trade it. LOL
:-)
Natalie
Joe
>
> Sometimes I wonder if it's as much a dealer problem as an automaker
> problem. We've had American cars by the hundreds in our fleet since
> forever. After about the mid-seventies we really have never had any
> problems with them. I've had numerous American cars over the years
> that I put well over 100K on and all any of them needed was the normal
> routine maintenance. That's not to suggest no one ever had a problem,
> there will always be some cars that something breaks on but it's
> really quite rare.
>
> that would make me not want to buy again if I had to depend on that
> dealer.
There you go. You've hit on it exactly. Have you heard any talk about
GM/Ford/Chrysler addressing this problem before they go bankrupt? It ain't
exactly a secret.
WickeddollŽ
"Joe" ..
>
> "WickeddollŽ" wrote in message >
I hope you're wrong. I don't to see domestic cars fade away; especially for
auto workers. Yeah, they voted the union weasels in, but I don't think they
should be forever punished for that.
Natalie
William R. Walsh
> Did they do /anything/ of a sane nature to stop? Anything at
> all? The Chevy Vega, perhaps? Maybe the Oldsmobile Diesel?
Fair enough.
> How about the Chrysler k-car?
Now that one was--if I'm not mistaken--an excellent concept. At the very
least, they sold well and you *still* see plenty of them on the road. Some
have even said the K-car was the car that pulled Chrysler back from the
brink of failure.
I bought one for $100 and put a little money into it to make it into a
workable car once again. Now it runs and drives pretty well, even if the
paint is oxidized and the body has some not insignificant rust. Twenty three
years later the interior has really held up nicely.
In fact, my only complaint is what sits under the hood....a 2.6 liter
Mitsubishi engine. Today it seems to be impossible to find anyone who wants
anything to do with the carburetion system...in other words, heaven help you
if it breaks. It's only through the OEM service manual and a lot of
tinkering that I've learned anything about how it is supposed to work. And
it's still not quite right...it does run, but I think the Chrysler 2.2 would
have been the better engine choice at the time.
I suppose that it is also a matter of what you're used to as well. I can't
complain about Japanese and other Asian cars, many people have them and are
quite happy. But they are different beasts and I can't help but wonder if
the same thing will happen parts and service wise for them in 23 years.
William
coach...@hotmail.com
> "Ashton Crusher" <d...@moore.net> wrote in message
>
> news:sn2pe35va41pha00t...@4ax.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Sat, 15 Sep 2007 15:53:30 -0700, larry moe 'n curly
> > <larrymoencu...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
> >>Wickeddoll® wrote:
>
> >>> "larry moe 'n curly" ...
>
> >>> > Ed wrote:
>
> >>> >> "U.S. auto makers are building higher-quality cars, but they can't
> >>> >> get
> >>> >> buyers to get over the fact that they're American cars...."
>
> >>> >> Wall Street Journal article:http://301url.com/c8x
>
> >>> > Because US auto makers waited too long to stop making cars that looked
> >>> > like furniture or copies of German or Japanese cars.
>
> >>> I think it's cool. I'd love to drive an American car again, without
> >>> having
> >>> them
> >>> another chance.
>
> >>I did that in 1992 and won't do it again. My car wasn't that bad,
> >>but Ford's attitude toward defects was very different from Toyota's or
> >>Nissan's, and they actually told me that lumpy body filler above the
> >>front doors wasn't really a defect because every car of that model was
> >>like that.
>
> > remembered forever no matter how minor. But Toyota sells entire lines
> > of cars with engines that sludge up and burn up and no one gives a
> > rats ass.
>
> nothing about it, such as the leaking GM intake gaskets. When Toyota has a
> problem they take care of it by extending the warranty or issuing a recall.- Hide quoted text -
>
And oh,boy, have they EVER been issuing recalls in the past couple of
years. I guess that says a whole lot about the Japanese
"reliablilty",. eh?"??
> - Show quoted text -
coach...@hotmail.com
> coachros...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > On Sep 15, 6:48 pm, Jim Higgins <gordian...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >> Wickeddoll® wrote:
> >>> "larry moe 'n curly" ...
> >>>> Ed wrote:
> >>>>> "U.S. auto makers are building higher-quality cars, but they can't get
> >>>>> buyers to get over the fact that they're American cars...."
> >>>>> Wall Street Journal article:http://301url.com/c8x
> >>>> Because US auto makers waited too long to stop making cars that looked
> >>>> like furniture or copies of German or Japanese cars.
> >>> I think it's cool. I'd love to drive an American car again, without having
> >>> to run it back and forth to the shop. Seriously, I'm willing to give them
> >>> another chance.
> >> I don't have the resources to take that gamble and maybe lose. Many
> >> times burned I just cannot take the risk even though the potential of
> >> the Chevy Volt did tempt me.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > I feel the same way about leaving GM and trying to buy another brand
> > of automobile. I just dont have the resources to take the gamble and
> > lose. Been buying them for over 30 years and all they do is run and
> > run, look nice, and get good gas milage. I wonder what I am doing
> > right and what you are doing wrong>
> >> - Show quoted text -
>
>
Naw, just coachrose speaking here, for himself. I'm sure Mike Hunter
can speak for himself and handle himself equally well..
Now, are you calling me a LIAR????
Every thing I have ever posted about my GM cars in this site has been
factual. Sorry if you have ever had problems with your GM's, if
indeed, you have ever owned any. My 31 year track record of reliablity
from GM cars will probably influence me into buying several more in
the upcoming years, if , God willing, I am able to do so. Continue to
bash away. I'll continue to get where I want to go in my GM vechicles.
coach...@hotmail.com
> In article <1189924936.312779.258...@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com>,
>
> coachros...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > Here we go again with the same old BS from GM bashers who have nothing
> > better than to come to this site and attack.
>
> > Have owned no less than seven GM vehicles since 98 and "beyond
> > schedueld maintenance" have ALL been "dead reliable". Have never had
> > to replace a starter on any of them, so I guess I am one up on you
> > other GM bashers who constantly come to this site and complain about
> > the problems they have had with their GM cars, are doing wrong?
>
> I gave up on GM cars when I started buying from Chrysler.
I'm probably missing something here, so enlighten me. I assume you are
meaning your Chrysler's gave you trouble, so you decided to not buy
GM???? Makes no sense to me. GM does not make Chrysler's, but neither
does Toyota, nor Nissan or Honda, or whatever you wound up buying, so
why blame GM for a bad Chrysler?????
> Yes many aspects of GM cars are very solid, but many aspects are
> unreliable and GM does nothing about it.
Been hearing this argument for about 20 years and am quite frankly,
getting sick of it. Gm is there, statistically, or however any other
way you want to put it, with other companies, in terms of quality.
The VERY few times I have ever had problems with my GM cars, they have
taken care of it. Period. What do you mean by "GM does nothing about
it????????"
> Then we have the very poor handling and drivability of GM cars.
> A few years ago I had a 2005 Impalla rental for two weeks and drove it a
> good mix of highway and city.
> A very spacious car, but it's drivability reminded me of cars of the
> early 80s. An OK car for chugging along on straight flat roads.
> No way I would even straight trade my 10 year older 1995 Chrysler
> Concorde for it!
Cant even come up with an answer to that one!!!!
Comparing an Impala to a Concode??? Did the Impala have tires on it?
coach...@hotmail.com
Been waiting for someone to try to pull this one on me. I usually buy
or trade because I WANT to, not because I NEED to or HAVE to.
Of the 7 I have owned in ten years, I still own 4 of them. Instead of
going over the 4 I currently own (and love), I;ll mention the 3 I no
longer have.
1. Chevy Lumina Z-34. Black. Bought new. Nice looking. Ran great,
good gas milage. Realiable. Broke a belt at 94k, kinda disappointed in
that, otherwise, no problems at all, until my 19 year old daughter
rolled it over a hill and totalled it at 105k. If you can convince me
that the Japanense cars would not have sustained similar damage in the
same crash, you might convince me to buy one.
2. 1995 Pontiac Grand AM SE. Black. Quad 4 four-cylinder. Not loaded
with a whole lot of options, but was a very nice car. Drove for over
80000, miles. Changed tires once, oil and filters a few times, and
that was it. NEVER in the shop for ANY other reason. Traded it for a
car I currently have owned for over nine years, with little trouble
out of it.
3.2003 Pontiac Grand AM. White. Beautiful car. Every option offered at
the time, other than On-Star. V-6. Leather, All-Power. Sun-roof.
Monsoon sterero system (awsome sound) Great all-around car. Traded it
at 60000 miles, (never in the shop for ANY reason), problably
foolishly on on impluse, for a larger new GM car, which in the 15
months I have owned it, has not been in the shop for any reason,
either.
coach...@hotmail.com
<wickeddoll1958NoEffingS...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> "Ashton Crusher", coachros...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> "Wickeddoll®"
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> >>> "larry moe 'n curly" ...
>
> >>> > Ed wrote:
>
> >>> >> "U.S. auto makers are building higher-quality cars, but they can't
> >>> >> get
> >>> >> buyers to get over the fact that they're American cars...."
>
> >>> >> Wall Street Journal article:http://301url.com/c8x
>
> >>> > Because US auto makers waited too long to stop making cars that looked
> >>> > like furniture or copies of German or Japanese cars.
>
> >>> I think it's cool. I'd love to drive an American car again, without
> >>> having
> >>> to run it back and forth to the shop. Seriously, I'm willing to give
> >>> them
> >>> another chance.
>
> >>> Natalie
>
> >>Gosh, I drive mine right by the shop every day, dont even have to stop
> >>there. Wonder what I'm doing right?
>
> > Every Toyota dealer I've seen has just as large a service area as the
> > American dealers. If Toyotas never need work, what's up with that???
>
> First of all, I've never heard *anyone* say Toyotas *never* have problems.
>
You havent been reading some of the posts here, have you??? We on
occasion, have quests who visit here and make claims of something
like 9 million miles without any probems on their Toyotas. Guess they
just cant contain such excitement on the Toyota site, and have to come
over here and share their experiences.
> Secondly, I only take my car to Toyota dealerships for regular maintenance.
> I've been burned too many times at other places.
>
> Natalie- Hide quoted text -
who
"Ted Mittelstaedt" <te...@toybox.placo.com> wrote:
> The idea works like this: The auto mfgr's wave the warranty over their
> customers heads to threaten them to go to the dealerships for the oil
> changes.
> The dealerships rake in the bucks doing fradulent oil changes, selling
> window
> wipers and all kinds of crap. Then the car conks out and the customer takes
> it to the dealer for warranty work and the factory doesen't pay the dealer
> for
> all the time the warranty work takes to do, so the raked-in big bucks are
> spent on the warranty work.
>
> The entire point of the system isn't to have a well-maintained car. The
> entire
> point of the system is to have a poorly maintained car that is in and out
> of the shop all the time, so the dealerships have work to do, and the car is
> so poorly maintained that 6 months after the customer has traded in the car,
> (and 5 months after the dealership has re-sold the traded-in car) the car
> conks out completely. In that way the auto makers insure that there isn't
> a flood of good used vehicles on the market, depressing new car sale
> prices, and they keep their dealerships happy with the service revenue.
That's quite a story, but one I've not experienced.
What I did experience from my dealer was so much pressure to look at the
Chrysler 300 they I no longer trusted them to service my 9+ yr old
Chrysler.
Other customers must have done the same, because my dealer sold his
Chrysler dealership and kept his Toyota dealership.
who
dizzy <di...@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> coach...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> >Have owned no less than seven GM vehicles since 98 and "beyond
> >schedueld maintenance" have ALL been "dead reliable". Have never had
> >to replace a starter on any of them, so I guess I am one up on you
> >there.
>
> Seven (!) in 10 years? What, you trade up every 18 months? Even GM
> knows to build their cars so that most of them make it through the
> warrantee period...
I've had two Chryslers in 22 years, an 87 and 95.
I believe I know a bit more about reliability than coachrose!
who
"WickeddollŽ" <wickeddoll195...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Also, domestic large vehicles are apparently much better
> than the "economy" ones. That's where I've heard the most complaints; that
> domestic economy cars are no bargain. So I have high hopes for the Fusion
> and a few other domestics that are out now.
That's true IMO.
The domestic bottom end cars have much lower quality than up a level.
The Fusion has a good record so far, the Focus has been troublesome.
The bottom end "imports" from Honda and Toyota have good reliability.
All VWs have been troublesome since they went to Mexico in the early 90s.
I've heard that German manufactured VW are very reliable.
Brent
> In article <fcl8ic...@news.evilcabal.org>,
You know what is stupid about building the cheap cars with crap
reliability? That's the first impression many young buyers get of a car
company! If you buy a Cobalt when you are 18 and it's a piece of crap
why in the world would you consider GM when you have a little more money
to spend? You are gonna look elsewhere because of the bad experience.
GM doesn't seem to get that.
b
Bill Putney
> You have got to be kidding. How long do you think Detroit's slide has
> taken? Think hard. When did the people of the US start to get mad? Pick
> your date.
My hating of having to deal with dealerships started with my first new
car - a 1973 Mercury Capris - had a truly terrible vibration from brand
new. Got no help from the dealer or regional rep. I had to
troubleshoot it and fix it myself - an improperly machined front wheel
hub caused a tilted wheel bearing. I don't expect perfection out of the
box, but I expect an obvious flaw to be fixed by the dealer.
Second new car was a 1980 Chev. Citation. The drivers door almost fell
off from a poorly welded hinge (under warranty). Any product can have a
flaw, but the dealer did a crappy job of taking care of the problem -
and in the process replaced door hardware with bad parts out of some
mechanic's junkbox and took my good hardware.
The brakes were dangerous (rear wheels locked up on wet roads due to a
known design flaw) - NHTSA finally recalled it after several people were
killed due to the problem that GM knew about all along. Dealer had to
repaint glove box door due to a factory flaw - they used gloss paint
that didn't match the rest of the interior - when I complained, they
said "This isn't a Cadillac. This is a low end car that isn't expected
to be perfect." Got same line when I asked them to replace the interior
metal molding piece along the top of the windshield a week after I took
delivery - it had a dent the size of a small fist in it - had to fight
them like hell to get it replaced ("Not a Cadillac...low end
vehicle...can't expect it to be perfect").
Yeah - they batted 0 out of 2 my first two new car experiences at a
young age - 1973 and 1980. Poor customer service is not a new phenomenon.
Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')
Bill Putney
Yep - see my story in my other post.
Ted Mittelstaedt
"dizzy" <di...@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
> Ashton Crusher wrote:
>
> >They routinely denied the sludge problem
> >claiming the owners weren't changing the oil even when the owners had
> >receipts for the work.
>
> So you claim. I've never seen any evidence that what you claim is
> true.
>
Please quit trolling. Bill has posted extensive links to other sites with
hundreds of other owners making similar bitches, if you are honestly
interested, you can use google news to search the history of this group
and find his prior posts and links.
Ted
Ted Mittelstaedt
"William R. Walsh" <newsg...@idontwantjunqueemail.walshcomptech.com>
wrote in message news:yEJHi.108457$Fc.73007@attbi_s21...
Trust me it does. I owned a 1980 Datsun 210 for a number of years. Very
reliable and good car, went through 3 transmissions and 2 engines. I really
liked the ability to lay under the car and unbolt and change out the
transmission
by hand, no trans jack required, since the trans was so light. However I
had to
unload it about 3 years ago because parts were just getting too difficult to
find
anymore. And I definitely have nothing good to say about Nissan support
and its's dealerships. I had on more than 1 occassion, used parts sold to me
by the
dealership where they claimed they were new, and claimed they had come out
of the
warehouse all covered with black greasy fingerprints, and the bag slit open
and taped back
together. The guy who bought it wanted it for a 60's Datsun truck he was
restoring.
Ted
n5hsr
But in a way, he's right. I know a lot of people that can point to similar
treatment from dealers. My dad would NEVER take the car back to a dealer
once he bought it. We had a lot of GM cars. It's gotten so bad that the
new car dealers in Chicago have banded together and started an ad campaign
to try to convince people they should buy used cars and get their car
serviced at a new car store.
"When you buy a used car
at a new car store,
You get a great deal,
and a great deal more."
Of course I replace the third and fourth lines with,
You get f***ed in the a$$,
With a steel wool pad!
And I'm starting to see that attitude from some of the Toyota dealers, too.
I guess they've had it too good for too long. And no Ray O about to remind
them what they're on about. Schaumburg Toyota is OK, but there's another
dealer around here that acts more like the old-style GM dealers every day.
They even started advertising putting nitrogen in tires. If you really
want a cool running tire, why not put hydrogen in it? Then if you ever got
struck by lightning, you could watch the Hindenburg effect. <g>
Charles of Schaumburg
n5hsr
"Bill Putney" <bp...@kinez.net> wrote in message
news:5l9nhkF...@mid.individual.net...
I've owned exactly 2 new cars, and the dealers gave me a hard time about
both.
First one was a 1971 KE30 Corolla. The reason I had such a hard time, was I
had a job where I was getting transfered every 6 months. So each time
service came up, I was living in a different town. The local Toyota dealer
wanted me to take it back where I bought it (several hundered miles away)
for service.) But in those days, most of the dealers in that part of the
country were either ex-GM or also-GM dealers.
The second new vehicle I purchased was a 95 Chevy S-10. Again, any
problems I had I got NO help from the dealer. The engine kept losing a hose
and the Check Engine light came on all the time. And I started seeing rust
before the vehicle was a year old. And then there where the crappy
rear-only ABS that nearly caused me to get into a wreck.
Detroit dealers ought to be working Rush Street, cause all they know how to
do is turn tricks. They're a lot like politicians. Anyone that's actually
been one should be disallowed from being one in the future.
Charles of Schaumburg
n5hsr
"who" <i...@notaspammer.net> wrote in message
news:i-455223.01...@news.telus.net...
I have seen at least two Toyota dealerships that won't work on 'old'
Toyotas, and they really pressure you to buy a new one. There's one just
south of the southern suburbs here in Chicago that's been a joke for at
least 15 years, if not longer and he won't work on any car over 2 years old,
and will not work on the car if you didn't buy it from him.
Charles of Schaumburg
n5hsr
"Brent" <no...@no.com> wrote in message
news:46ef8fc7$0$1535$9a6e...@unlimited.newshosting.com...
Fool me once, shame on you.
Fool me twice, shame on me.
GM seems to have forgotten that proverb, along with,
You never get a second chance to make a good first impression.
Charles of Schaumburg
80 Knight
>
> "80 Knight" ...
>> "WickeddollŽ" ...
>>>
>>> "Ashton Crusher" ...
>>
>> <Snip>
>>
>>>>>But the recalls came from Toyota directly, not the dealerships. How
>>>>>did
>>>>>your vehicles perform at over 200 k, as Toyotas typically go?
>>>>
>>>> We have many vehicles that go over 200K. One of my areas has gone
>>>> thru 3 ford vans all of which went over 250K on the original engines
>>>> and transmissions. Of the three, one of them had the transmission go
>>>> out at 260K, the other two were still running great when sent to the
>>>> auction.
>>>>
>>>
>>> *snip*
>>>
>>> Those are *large* vehicles, that you've mentioned. Any economy-class
>>> >200 K with no major problems?
>>>
>>> I've already acknowledged that domestic large vehicles are often
>>> superior.
>>
>> this conversation (:-P) but I just had to point out that a friends Saturn
>> went to almost 400,000 Km's, and was still running when she got rid of
>> it...You know how much I like GM, but even *I* don't like Saturn's!
>>
>
> Hey, 80!
>
> Yeah, now that you've mentioned it, I remember that people used to love
> Saturns, but apparently they've gone downhill?
Her's was a 2001, if memory serves. As for the newer ones, I have never
driven one, but I did read an article in a local paper that one of them won
some sort of award. I never liked them because they were made of plastic,
and I never thought them to be attractive.
Mike Hunter
day one LOL
mike
"larry moe 'n curly" <larrymo...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:1189894952.6...@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com...
Steve
> I think it's cool. I'd love to drive an American car again, without having
> to run it back and forth to the shop. Seriously, I'm willing to give them
> another chance.
>
> Natalie
>
>
I never *quit* driving American cars, and I'm *NOT* always running to
the shop (436,000 miles on one, 320,000 on another, 244,000 on the
newest). I've owned both American and Japanese cars, and the whole
"japanese cars are better" myth is just that- a myth based on a brief
period of time 25 years ago and perpetuated by incessant glossy ad copy.
All the Toyota owners with burned-up engines are finally realizing that.
Steve
>
> Why is it that every defect that ever occurs in an American car is
> remembered forever no matter how minor. But Toyota sells entire lines
> of cars with engines that sludge up and burn up and no one gives a
> rats ass.
Because it didn't really happen. Nothing was wrong. It was the owners'
fault.
:-p
Steve
> That may be because when the American car companies have a problem they do
> nothing about it, such as the leaking GM intake gaskets. When Toyota has a
> problem they take care of it by extending the warranty or issuing a recall.
Only after spending FIVE YEARS stating that, "It was just owners who
didn't change their oil regularly." Oh yeah, that Toyota service is the
*greatest*. Just like Honda back in the 90s saying "Ignitors? What
ignitors? We don't see ANY problems with ignitors. By the way, we
installed a new ignitor, now quit complaining."
WickeddollŽ
"n5hsr"
>
> "who" ...
>> "Ted Mittelstaedt" :
Wow, I've never had that problem. They've always worked on our cars, even
the Corolla FX 16 that was 17 years old the last time we had it serviced.
(it now belongs to my mom)
Natalie
WickeddollŽ
<coach...@hotmail.com>
"Wickeddoll®"
wrote:
> "Ashton Crusher",
Coach
Oh please, I've have been on this NG for many years, and I read most of the
posts about cars (I don't always read the off-topic stuff), and I have yet
to see any posts that say "I have never heard of a Toyota having a problem."
Ludicrous.
What we keep saying, and you refuse to acknowledge, is that when Toyotas
*do* have problems, the recall/notice practices are far superior.
I'd rather hear from Toyota that something may be or is wrong with my car,
than to find out the hard way, as domestic carmakers like to do. I hope
they at least are more up front in the future, and don't blame the consumer
when something is fubared on their cars. I think most people can forgive
errors, but nobody I know likes to be called a liar or incapable of driving
a vehicle properly.
You know as well as I do, that domestic car makers are well-known for citing
"driver/owner error" when someone dies in their vehicles.
Natalie
WickeddollŽ
"who" <...
> "WickeddollŽ" :
>
>> Also, domestic large vehicles are apparently much better
>> than the "economy" ones. That's where I've heard the most complaints;
>> that
>> domestic economy cars are no bargain. So I have high hopes for the
>> Fusion
>> and a few other domestics that are out now.
>
> That's true IMO.
> The domestic bottom end cars have much lower quality than up a level.
> The Fusion has a good record so far, the Focus has been troublesome.
>
> The bottom end "imports" from Honda and Toyota have good reliability.
> All VWs have been troublesome since they went to Mexico in the early 90s.
> I've heard that German manufactured VW are very reliable.
If I were in the market for a large vehicle (minivan or truck) I'd head
straight for domestic dealers. The Japanese haven't mastered those
all-American vehicles. I see *so* many ancient Ford trucks on the road;
sometimes rusty, but still spry. What's really cool is when the owner has
invested in detailing them. Nothing cooler-looking, IMO; especially if it's
bright red.
:-)
Natalie
WickeddollŽ
"Ted Mittelstaedt" ...
>
> "dizzy" ...
>> Ashton Crusher wrote:
>>
>> >They routinely denied the sludge problem
>> >claiming the owners weren't changing the oil even when the owners had
>> >receipts for the work.
>>
>> So you claim. I've never seen any evidence that what you claim is
>> true.
>>
>
> Please quit trolling. Bill has posted extensive links to other sites with
> hundreds of other owners making similar bitches, if you are honestly
> interested, you can use google news to search the history of this group
> and find his prior posts and links.
>
> Ted
>
Yeah, if it's on Google or Wikipedia, it must be true!
*sarcasm mode off*
Here we go with the sludge whining again. How long ago was that?
Everything you guys have been saying about sludge has been shown (on the
same sites you're mentioning) that Toyota made restitution for it.
I have yet to see any *later model* Toyota buyers have the same complaint.
Toyotas have had plenty of problems, but it's been my experience that they
swiftly rectify them, and will nag you until you go in to get it fixed, on
them.
It's all about customer service - not perfection.
Natalie
WickeddollŽ
"n5hsr" ...
>
> "Wickeddoll®" <...
>>
>> "Joe" ...
ROFL - Bitter? Oh, a tad...
>
> And I'm starting to see that attitude from some of the Toyota dealers,
> too. I guess they've had it too good for too long. And no Ray O about to
> remind them what they're on about. Schaumburg Toyota is OK, but there's
> another dealer around here that acts more like the old-style GM dealers
> every day. They even started advertising putting nitrogen in tires. If
> you really want a cool running tire, why not put hydrogen in it? Then if
> you ever got struck by lightning, you could watch the Hindenburg effect.
> <g>
>
> Charles of Schaumburg
>
You know what, sales is a sleazy business, no matter what it is. They're
always trying to hook you into something you don't need, by trying to
convince you that you can't live without it, or that you'll miss out.
My son works for a large electronics corporation, that rhymes with "Chest
Pie."
He used to be in computer sales, now he's on something that rhymes with the
"Peek Odd" ;-) When he was selling puters, he said they didn't make their
money from the computer's sale (they usually sold them below wholesale
price) - it's the other extraneous shit that makes them the bucks! For
instance, with his employee discount, he can buy Ethernet cable, that
normally costs $20 retail, for $1.50! What a markup!
Natalie
WickeddollŽ
"Steve" ...
My engines have never burned up, but you didn't say what type of domestic
vehicles you've had. Even I would buy large domestic vehicles, as I've said
many times.
It's the "low-end" economy domestics that gave many I knew of lots of grief.
Most consumers can't afford those monster-sized vehicles, so they *have* to
try to get their money's worth from cheaper vehicles.
Natalie