Who was it who mentioned Fram oil filters and dropping oil pressure?
Hachiroku ハチロク
caused by my using Fram oil filters?
There may be something to this.
I picked up yet another 1992 Grand Something-or-other (in this case, a
Grand Caravan. The last two were V'gers...). It has 239,000 miles on it. I
got it on eBay for $150 and had to go 135 miles to pick it up. To make a
long story short, we had to cut and crimp one of the rear brake lines to
get the thing to move without emptying the brake cylinder, and the plan
was to drive it within 100 miles from home and call AAA..."It blew a brake
line!"
No need. The crimp held and the thing ran so well I drove it the entire
way home! Of course, I told "Jane" to avoid highways, so it was 92 miles
through Providence and back into Mass and on to home.
All the way the oil press. guage was about 1/2 way up the guage,
occasionally dropping a little below on a 68 degree November day in the
middle of Providence. Other than that, it stayed right around the halfway
mark the entire trip.
Today I gave it a 'service', oil change, air filter and tranny juice and
filter. I used a Fram TG oil filter since if you bought a jug (5 qts) of
Valvoline oil you got the filter $2 off. Maybe it's just on the Subaru?
NOPE! After I changed the oil and took it for a test, the oil pressure
guage had dropped a whole mark off halfway! I don't believe it!
I'm going to wait until the next nice day, pull the oil filter and put on
something like a Wix. Never had that problem with either OEM or Wix
filters, and Wix got high ratings from Consumer's Reports.
hls
"Hachiroku ハチロク" <Tru...@e86.GTS> wrote in message
news:pan.2009.11.22....@e86.GTS...
> NOPE! After I changed the oil and took it for a test, the oil pressure
> guage had dropped a whole mark off halfway! I don't believe it!
>
> I'm going to wait until the next nice day, pull the oil filter and put on
> something like a Wix. Never had that problem with either OEM or Wix
> filters, and Wix got high ratings from Consumer's Reports.
>
Those indicating gauges are often very inaccurate. Also, there may have
been a difference between the oil you drained out and the oil you put in,
viscosity wise.
I have never had a problem with a Fram, but I have pussed out and avoid
them strictly on their reputation.
dsi1
Couldn't this also have meant that the filter may have been restricting
the oil flow i.e., clogged up? Just guessing.
hls
"dsi1" <ds...@spamnet.com> wrote in message
news:r2kOm.28472$cd7....@newsfe04.iad...
>>
>> I have never had a problem with a Fram, but I have pussed out and avoid
>> them strictly on their reputation.
>
> Couldn't this also have meant that the filter may have been restricting
> the oil flow i.e., clogged up? Just guessing.
It could mean a lot of things. Remember he changed both the filter and the
oil
on this car, and measured the results with a rather inaccurate gauge.
There are a lot of variables here.
If he wants to eliminate Fram from the equation, change to a Wix, or
something else,
as he suggested.
Now, going back to the OP, he apparently just picked up this higher mileage
vehicle.
How do we know what the seller added to the crankcase?
He will just have to work through this item by item,and I hope he will post
the results
Hachiroku ハチロク
I also have an '89 Soob GL Coupe, AWD. When I replaced the oil filter with
a Fram, the pressure dropped...
I have an '88 Supra. When I replaced the filter with a Fram...
I remember someone in the Soob group mentioned something about Fram
filters when I was talking about low oil p before, and now it's three for
three...
I think next time (~800 miles for the Soob) I'm going to hunt down a Wix
filter and see what happens...
nm...@wt.net
> Who was it in the Subaru group that mentioned my low oil pressure might be
> caused by my using Fram oil filters?
It's a known problem on the orange Fram filters. The problem is the
anti drainback valves don't work. How much it effects the engine will
depend on the filter mounting and position.
I have two old Ford trucks, both with straight six engines. "300 and
240".
You cannot use those Fram filters on those engines unless you like
starting up with no oil pressure.
I knew about this before trying one, but I happened to get one free,
so
decided to try it. At first I thought it was ok. But I came back three
hours later to go to the store and had no oil pressure. And this is on
a
fresh rebuilt engine with a new oil pump. Not some wore out beater.
I couldn't get pressure, so i cut it off. Then I tried it again and
finally
got pressure going. I dumped that filter right there on the spot and
replaced it with a Motorcraft FL1A which is what I normally use.
Never had the problem again.
I wouldn't use one of those filters if it were free. Total junk as far
as the anti drain valves.
I wouldn't use one on any other car either just due to the problems
I had, no matter if the mounting position was a problem or not.
dsi1
>
> "dsi1" <ds...@spamnet.com> wrote in message
> news:r2kOm.28472$cd7....@newsfe04.iad...
>
>>>
>>> I have never had a problem with a Fram, but I have pussed out and avoid
>>> them strictly on their reputation.
>>
>> Couldn't this also have meant that the filter may have been
>> restricting the oil flow i.e., clogged up? Just guessing.
>
> It could mean a lot of things. Remember he changed both the filter and
> the oil
> on this car, and measured the results with a rather inaccurate gauge.
My question is: is it possible to increase the oil pressure reading at
the sender by installing a filter with a high resistance to oil flow?
Might it be that a drop in oil pressure may not be a bad thing if it is
the result of installing a oil filter that allows more oil to be
filtered? Again, this is just a guess - I've never read anything about
this.
Daniel Who Wants to Know
Daniel
Bought a 95 Grand Caravan SE 3.3l with 223,000 miles on it for $800 and
immediatly changed to a 51515 and Mobil 1 5w30 non-EP. I have 10k miles of
my own on the van now and the engine is still going strong.
Hachiroku ハチロク
> Put a Wix 51515 on it and you won't have a problem again.
Let's see if I can remember that number! ;)
>
> Daniel
> Bought a 95 Grand Caravan SE 3.3l with 223,000 miles on it for $800 and
> immediatly changed to a 51515 and Mobil 1 5w30 non-EP. I have 10k miles of
> my own on the van now and the engine is still going strong.
When I changed the oil and started the engine, there was what sounded like
a bottom end knock in it...
I went for a 5 mile ride and the sound went awat...Thank You! Whew!
I had a Gr Voyager w/279,000 miles on it. It had had the trans replaced
under warranty and never had a problem with it, excep the guy who gave it
to me wanted it back! He ran it up to 324,000!!!
1 Lucky Texan
> "dsi1" <d...@spamnet.com> wrote in message
Yeah, I think there are too many variables to know for sure. While I
DO believe there are filters with no/bad anti-drainback valves(and
other issues) - I just don't see how a filter could cause abnormally
low oil pressure.
As a further odd-ball failure mode, consider that new oil and/or
'disturbing' an old and possibly neglected lubrication system could
have dislodged some debris that is stuck in the oil pressure sender's
orifice. I had this happen once on an old mitsubishi/Colt Vista engine
(IIRC) . The after market sender had a much larger orifice. The OEM
was 'maybe' a millimeter !
C. E. White
> My question is: is it possible to increase the oil pressure reading
> at the sender by installing a filter with a high resistance to oil
> flow?
>
> Might it be that a drop in oil pressure may not be a bad thing if it
> is the result of installing a oil filter that allows more oil to be
> filtered? Again, this is just a guess - I've never read anything
> about this.
I am confident that the oil pressure pick-up point is after the
filter. Therefore a restrictive filter can only reduce the measured
pressure, not increase it.
Ed
N8N
That number sounds familiar... same filter as a 225 leaning tower of
power maybe?
nate
WW
<nm...@wt.net> wrote in message
news:0a02fc0d-1507-4b51...@p32g2000vbi.googlegroups.com...
I also had a Ford 300 six. Same problem. Changed to NAPA best filter ( I
think this is made by Wix) Problem solved. WW
larry moe 'n curly
Hachiroku ハチロク wrote:
> Who was it in the Subaru group that mentioned my low oil pressure might be
> caused by my using Fram oil filters?
>
> There may be something to this.
>
> I picked up yet another 1992 Grand Something-or-other (in this case, a
> Grand Caravan. The last two were V'gers...). It has 239,000 miles on it. I
> got it on eBay for $150 and had to go 135 miles to pick it up. To make a
> long story short, we had to cut and crimp one of the rear brake lines to
> get the thing to move without emptying the brake cylinder, and the plan
> was to drive it within 100 miles from home and call AAA..."It blew a brake
> line!"
>
> Today I gave it a 'service', oil change, air filter and tranny juice and
> filter. I used a Fram TG oil filter since if you bought a jug (5 qts) of
> Valvoline oil you got the filter $2 off. Maybe it's just on the Subaru?
>
> NOPE! After I changed the oil and took it for a test, the oil pressure
> guage had dropped a whole mark off halfway! I don't believe it!
>
> I'm going to wait until the next nice day, pull the oil filter and put on
> something like a Wix. Never had that problem with either OEM or Wix
> filters, and Wix got high ratings from Consumer's Reports.
But in the Consumer Reports test, Fram (and Lee Maxifilter - Champion)
did even better and was not only top rated but also check rated,
meaning they did significantly better than the rest. They removed
something like 88% of the test particles (I think they were 20 or 25
micron particles, but I don't remember if the test was single-pass or
multi-pass), compared to 70% or 75% for AC. The worst filter removed
50%, and I think it was a depth filter.
N8N
wrote:
>
> - Show quoted text -
Doesn't matter how well it filters if the ADBV doesn't work, and
Fram's traditionally don't.
NB: I haven't used a Fram filter in 15 years or more because of this
issue, so they may have rectified it - but why take the chance when so
many other filters have been working well for years?
nate
larry moe 'n curly
n...@wt.net wrote:
> It's a known problem on the orange Fram filters. The problem is the
> anti drainback valves don't work. How much it effects the engine will
> depend on the filter mounting and position.
A Finnish magazine article from 1996 found no problems with any of the
drainback valves
tested, and Fram did not leak the most. Also how come you can blow
into an orange Fram but not suck air from it? Money saving hint:
doing that test in the store = free oil filter. :)
N8N
wrote:
That's nice, but personal experience trumps a test any day. Time from
cold start to oil pressure light going out on my old Dart, >5 sec.
with a Fram filter. 1 sec. or less with a Wix filter. Guess which
filter I've used ever since.
nate
jim
But here's the problem - a filter that works really well will also plug
up sooner. If you put a filter that removes fine particles an old
sludged up beater that has been accumulating fine particles in the
crankcase for years it will plug the filter in a short amount of time
(sometimes very short) and that will show up as low oil pressure. Even
if the engine has not been abused If it used a filter for years that is
letting the fine stuff through you can expect a filter that catches fine
stuff to to load up in short order.
If you notice the millions of new cars using Fram filters aren't the
ones having problems. It is always the guys with the 30 year old beaters
who tell of their the bad experience with the Fram filters.
That is not to say Fram filters are high quality. They are cheap
filters, but they are good enough if you change the oil often enough.
-jim
Hachiroku ハチロク
>> I'm going to wait until the next nice day, pull the oil filter and put
>> on something like a Wix. Never had that problem with either OEM or Wix
>> filters, and Wix got high ratings from Consumer's Reports.
>
> But in the Consumer Reports test, Fram (and Lee Maxifilter - Champion) did
> even better and was not only top rated but also check rated, meaning they
> did significantly better than the rest.
Lee Maxifilter?!?!?!
How the hell old was this test?!?!?!
I used to use Lee Maxifilters in my Corollas. When I got the Hachiroku,
for it's first oil change I went to get a Lee...GONE! I actually found one
in a closet last year, but it doesn't fit anything I own. I must have
bought it ~1982 or so.
If you find a Lee, let me know!!! ;)
BTW, that same test, from 1984, also said if you had a Toyota, you were
getting the BEST filter made...
Hachiroku ハチロク
>> But in the Consumer Reports test, Fram (and Lee Maxifilter - Champion)
>> did even better and was not only top rated but also check rated, meaning
>> they did significantly better than the rest. They removed something
>> like 88% of the test particles (I think they were 20 or 25 micron
>> particles, but I don't remember if the test was single-pass or
>> multi-pass), compared to 70% or 75% for AC. The worst filter removed
>> 50%, and I think it was a depth filter.
>
> But here's the problem - a filter that works really well will also plug up
> sooner. If you put a filter that removes fine particles an old sludged
> up beater that has been accumulating fine particles in the crankcase for
> years it will plug the filter in a short amount of time (sometimes very
> short) and that will show up as low oil pressure. Even if the engine has
> not been abused If it used a filter for years that is letting the fine
> stuff through you can expect a filter that catches fine stuff to to load
> up in short order.
>
> If you notice the millions of new cars using Fram filters aren't the
> ones having problems. It is always the guys with the 30 year old beaters
> who tell of their the bad experience with the Fram filters.
>
> That is not to say Fram filters are high quality. They are cheap
> filters, but they are good enough if you change the oil often enough.
>
> -jim
Every three thousand miles, regardless of age/condition of car...
Hachiroku ハチロク
LOL! Nice description!
Hachiroku ハチロク
Wix got rated very highly from CR, but AutoZone doesn't sell them. The
CarQuest I used to work at (and got Wholesale from...) closed last
year...they were turning the key to Lock when I went to get some parts for
my Supra...there is another place that does have them. The Soob is due in
a few hundred more miles....time for a Real World test!
nm...@wt.net
>
> If you notice the millions of new cars using Fram filters aren't the
> ones having problems. It is always the guys with the 30 year old beaters
> who tell of their the bad experience with the Fram filters.
But I suspect not for the reason you think. A lot of the problem
is the position of the filter. And lots of older cars had the filter
mounted where it drained easily. It's not due to the condition of
the engine. Remember, I had this problem with a brand new rebuilt
engine that ran great, and it never did it again after dumping the
Fram
filter. My engine was not a beater and the oil pump was brand new.
>
> That is not to say Fram filters are high quality. They are cheap
> filters, but they are good enough if you change the oil often enough.
>
> -jim
They filter ok, but like one said, who cares if the valve doesn't
work
worth a hoot, and it's a proven fact that they don't.
Hachiroku ハチロク
I'm afraid Lee filters are long gone. The last reference I could find was
a magazine ad from 1986. The last one I bought was '84 or '85. I can't
understand how they could go out of business. I was buying them 2-3 at a
time!
I used them in my 74 Corolla, my 78 Corolla, my 80 Corolla. They were all
high mileage cars, due in some part to the oil filter?
jim
Yeah and I'm a talking dog. You change the oil every 3000k on a car you
have only had for 100 miles?
-jim
Steve Austin
jim
nm...@wt.net wrote:
>
> On Nov 23, 1:58 pm, jim <"sjedgingN0Sp"@m@mwt,net> wrote:
>
> >
> > If you notice the millions of new cars using Fram filters aren't the
> > ones having problems. It is always the guys with the 30 year old beaters
> > who tell of their the bad experience with the Fram filters.
>
> But I suspect not for the reason you think. A lot of the problem
> is the position of the filter. And lots of older cars had the filter
> mounted where it drained easily. It's not due to the condition of
> the engine. Remember, I had this problem with a brand new rebuilt
> engine that ran great, and it never did it again after dumping the
> Fram
> filter. My engine was not a beater and the oil pump was brand new.
I've seen rebuilt engines that are beaters.
>
> >
> > That is not to say Fram filters are high quality. They are cheap
> > filters, but they are good enough if you change the oil often enough.
> >
> > -jim
>
> They filter ok, but like one said, who cares if the valve doesn't
> work
> worth a hoot, and it's a proven fact that they don't.
It's not a fact and your account of one experience is hardly proof. The studies
I have seen give the drain back valve on Fram a good rating. Your proof is one
experience against millions. Any filter's drain back valve will leak if a piece
of crud happens to prevent it from sealing. That possibility is most likely on a
freshly rebuilt engine.
And the drain back valve have nothing to do with the operating oil pressure,
which was the topic of this thread.
-jim
Hachiroku ハチロク
>
>> If you notice the millions of new cars using Fram filters
>> aren't the ones having problems. It is always the guys with the 30 year
>> old beaters who tell of their the bad experience with the Fram filters.
>
> But I suspect not for the reason you think. A lot of the problem is the
> position of the filter. And lots of older cars had the filter mounted
> where it drained easily. It's not due to the condition of the engine.
> Remember, I had this problem with a brand new rebuilt engine that ran
> great, and it never did it again after dumping the Fram
> filter. My engine was not a beater and the oil pump was brand new.
The filter on the Soob and the Caravan are positioned so that when you
remove them, they are full of oil. Yuck!
The Supra...often the filter is dry, even if you remove it shortly after
turning off the engine. Not really recommended, since for some reasone
Toyota has a penchant for placing them directly below the exhaust header...
Burns to prove it! ;p
Hachiroku ハチロク
>> > That is not to say Fram filters are high quality. They are cheap
>> > filters, but they are good enough if you change the oil often enough.
>> >
>> > -jim
>>
>> Every three thousand miles, regardless of age/condition of car...
>
> Yeah and I'm a talking dog. You change the oil every 3000k on a car you
> have only had for 100 miles?
jim...jim beam?...oh,brother...now infecting groups other than Honda?
Jesus ever let you put your finger in the holes in his hands, and your hand in his side?
Once more, for the fans on the West Coast...
1988 Supra. Bought in 2004. Oil changes every 3,000 miles since I have
owned it. Approaching 30,000 miles since I bought it.
1989 Subaru GL coupe. Bought in 2007. Oil changes every 3,000 miles since
I have owned it. Approaching 20,000 miles since I bought it.
1989 Mazda 626. Bought in 2006. Oil changes every 3,000 miles since I
have owned it. Approaching 30,000 miles since I bought it.
1985 Toyota Corolla GTS. Bought in 1986 with 10,000 miles. Oil changes
every 3,000 miles. Now has 259,810 miles. (that's 86 oil changes, all done
by me) Hey! 86! I like that number!
1992 Dodge Caravan. Bought 2 weeks ago. Did an oil change. Will do an oil
change every 3,000 miles as long as I own it.
2005 Scion tC. Bought in 2006 with 11,000 miles. Oil changes every 4,500
miles, since I use synthetic in this car. Approaching 20,000 miles since I
bought it.
No, I do *NOT* analyze my oil. I just change it. Period. Every 3,000 miles.
Except the Scion.
End of discussion.
And, I see you type as well as talk. Formidable!
hls
"larry moe 'n curly" <larrymo...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:0d3155dd-841b-4b7f...@s21g2000prm.googlegroups.com...
You have to remember that the filter that will remove the smallest particles
will generally be the one which has the highest resistance to flow (smallest
pore
sizes).
Do you have any data that accurately describes what happens when particles
of various small sizes are left in the oil? I dont. I have, like you I am
sure, read
that they are not desirable, but have never seen HARD data.
Nate Nagel
Everyone who's ever owned a car with an "upside down" oil filter knows
that Fram ADBVs suck. They don't work more often than they do, or at
least that was the case the last time I used one, 15 years ago.
If they can't manage to make something as simple as an ADBV work, that
doesn't say a whole lot for their overall quality, and I don't feel the
need to roll the dice with my engine when a better filter is easily
available for the same price.
nate
--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel
Nate Nagel
> On Mon, 23 Nov 2009 12:59:47 -0800, nm5k wrote:
>
>>> If you notice the millions of new cars using Fram filters
>>> aren't the ones having problems. It is always the guys with the 30 year
>>> old beaters who tell of their the bad experience with the Fram filters.
>> But I suspect not for the reason you think. A lot of the problem is the
>> position of the filter. And lots of older cars had the filter mounted
>> where it drained easily. It's not due to the condition of the engine.
>> Remember, I had this problem with a brand new rebuilt engine that ran
>> great, and it never did it again after dumping the Fram
>> filter. My engine was not a beater and the oil pump was brand new.
>
>
> The filter on the Soob and the Caravan are positioned so that when you
> remove them, they are full of oil. Yuck!
Punch a hole in the top of the can while the oil is draining from the
pan; wait half an hour before removing filter.
It'll still be messy, just not *as* messy.
Hachiroku ハチロク
>> Wix got rated very highly from CR, but AutoZone doesn't sell them. The
>> CarQuest I used to work at (and got Wholesale from...) closed last
>> year...they were turning the key to Lock when I went to get some parts
>> for my Supra...there is another place that does have them. The Soob is
>> due in a few hundred more miles....time for a Real World test!
>>
>>
> Napa oil filters are Wix.
Someone else mentioned that, but the guy who used to give me wholesale now
works as the ass't manager at another parts store, and they have Wix
filters, too. ;)
At CarQuest, we sold Wix branded filters, at about $5 per filter, and
CarQuest filters, which were also Wix, at $3.99...wonder what the
difference was...
(Other than $1, of course!)
jim
Nate Nagel wrote:
>
> Everyone who's ever owned a car with an "upside down" oil filter knows
> that Fram ADBVs suck.
Yeah and everybody knows the moon is made of green cheese. BTW which way
is upside down for a filter/
jim
Your not going to find research and hard data on worn out clunkers like
the one in the tale that started this thread.
Buying an old car changing the oil and putting a Fram filter on it
happens all the time. And it is not that uncommon for the result to be a
quickly clogged filter. Been there, done that myself. Now in my opinion
the thing to do when that happens is to immediately change the oil again
and put another Fram filter on. Why blame the filter for just doing its
job? I mean how retarded do you have to be to think the problem is with
the new filter and not the old worn out engine?
-jim
jim
You mean end of self absorbed delirium. Obviously you can't remember
what it is you originally posted about.
-jim
nobody >
"Store brand" stuff made by a known manufacturer is often cheaper for
exactly the same product. The mfr can tool up for a large lot, stamp it
for the store/customer, ship it FOB, and make their profit on
short-term volume.
I used to work for a school-supply company back in the days when "spirit
duplicators" (read Ditto brand) were the only answer for multiple copies.
We sold Ditto (part of Bell & Howell at the time) duplicators and
Ditto's own brand of fluid (basically methyl alcohol with some
additives). We sold the same stuff (from Ditto) under our own brand
(with it marked as "Made by Ditto for ___") for about 50 to 75% of the
Ditto brand, depending on lot size to our customer. Big school districts
would buy thousands of gallons per year....
BTW, this was also decent degreaser, fair to good "stove fuel", and also
a fairly decent "gas line antifreeze". I used to pour about a quarter
gallon in the 50 gallon tank in the back of my truck every other fill.
Hachiroku ハチロク
> I
> mean how retarded do you have to be to think the problem is with the new
> filter and not the old worn out engine?
About as retarded as making a statement like the one above without
reading the entire post.
If you'll look again, you'll see I didn't have that problem with the Supra
with an "old, worn out engine" until I put a Fram oil filter on it. Prior
to that I had been using Toyota filters, but ran out of filters on hand.
With the Toyota filters, the oil pressure had been about 1/2 mark on the
gauge higher. I don't have much to go on with the Subaru, but the last oil
change was done about 6 months before I bought it and it sat for 4 of
those months. Oil pressure was good until I put on a Fram.
So, before you say something retarded yet again, why don't you just wait
until I post an update after replacing the Soob and Caravan filters with
another brand, and post the results?
I just find it funny that on three older cars, replacing the existing
filter with a Fram resulted in lower oil pressures.
Hachiroku ハチロク
The Caravan is positioned so if you have the pan placed properly, it
catches the oil from the pan and the filter all at once.
The Soob...it leaks out a little, but manages to hold most of the oil in
place.
The Supra? If the filter does happen to be full, you're going to get oil
down the side of the block and onto the subframe...
Hachiroku ハチロク
Interesting, since they are 'made' by Honeywell, which is a fairly
reputable company.
nobody >
>
> "larry moe 'n curly" <larrymo...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
> news:0d3155dd-841b-4b7f...@s21g2000prm.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>
>> Hachiroku ハチロク wrote:
>>> Who was it in the Subaru group that mentioned my low oil pressure
>>> might be
>>> caused by my using Fram oil filters?
>>>
This is another subject with no answer that satisfies everyone.
My own experience on "Orange Fram" filters was blowing one up while
priming a rebuilt 283 Chev small-block oil system (with a 3/8th's drill)
back in the '60s. (and for the astute, yes: I had an aftermarket
spin-on adapter on that block)
Since then, I don't buy "Orange Fram"....
Here it comes......
Damned oil filter Nazis...
(ducking the brick shower coming)
Hachiroku ハチロク
>> No, I do *NOT* analyze my oil. I just change it. Period. Every 3,000
>> miles. Except the Scion.
>>
>> End of discussion.
>
> You mean end of self absorbed delirium. Obviously you can't remember what
> it is you originally posted about.
>
> -jim
Still a meathead, I see. Good to know some things never change.
Not really. It's just an old cliche.
It would be nice if, once in a while, you chimed in on a discussion where
you actually added some value, instead of trying to make yourself look
like the only person in the world who knows anything, and everyone else is
just an idiot.
And I remember full well what my original post was concerning. I threw in
the 3,000 miles to indicate when the next oil change might be, and also
mentioned I was changing the oil in the Soob soon. But being myopic as you
are, you focused on one thing and ran with it.
Why don't you go haunt a castle in Scotland or something?
For all you actually manage to add to a discussion, it would amount to
about the same.
I'm not going to start this bullshit with you again like in the Honda
group, or the last oil change discussion. Add something or just STFU.
please.
Nate Nagel
Base up. Base down doesn't require an ADBV unless there's a siphon
effect somehow.
jim
"Hachiroku ハチロク" wrote:
>
> I just find it funny that on three older cars, replacing the existing
> filter with a Fram resulted in lower oil pressures.
It doesn't take much to amuse a dim wit.
You may well get higher pressure with a a filter that has less
resistance. This is not unusual for any worn out engine that doesn't
generate enough extra pressure to push the pressure relief valve open.
That doesn't mean the other filter is better. One of the consequences of
using the filters that don't filter as good is an accumulation of fines
and more wear. The wear is the actual cause of the low oil pressure.
-jim
Nate Nagel
> jim wrote:
>>
>> Nate Nagel wrote:
>>
>>> Everyone who's ever owned a car with an "upside down" oil filter knows
>>> that Fram ADBVs suck.
>>
>> Yeah and everybody knows the moon is made of green cheese. BTW which way
>> is upside down for a filter/
>
> Base up. Base down doesn't require an ADBV unless there's a siphon
> effect somehow.
FRAG! I knew what I was thinking, but typed the exact opposite.
Base UP (as in a SBC and most other old school V-8s with an integral
filter mount) is "normal." Base DOWN (e.g. slant-six, Porsche 944, old
Ferrari V-12, etc.) *requires* an ADBV, either as part of the filter or
part of the base.
nm...@wt.net
>
> I've seen rebuilt engines that are beaters.
Mine is not. It still runs as well today as it did in 2002 when I
installed it. Which is like new I might add. No runs, no drips,
no errors.. Except for when I tried to use a Fram filter and it
clacked
very loudly in protest. I didn't let it run long enough to hurt
anything, and
I never raised it off idle until I finally had pressure.
>
>
>
> It's not a fact and your account of one experience is hardly proof. The studies
> I have seen give the drain back valve on Fram a good rating. Your proof is one
> experience against millions. Any filter's drain back valve will leak if a piece
> of crud happens to prevent it from sealing. That possibility is most likely on a
> freshly rebuilt engine.
> And the drain back valve have nothing to do with the operating oil pressure,
> which was the topic of this thread.
>
> -jim
I can round you up a whole boatload of people that have seen
the same exact problem. This is a well known issue involving many
people. It's not something I just made up to look stylish.
I don't care what the "studies" say. They are not using them in the
same applications and filter positions.
There have already been two others just in this thread alone that
seem to be well aware of the problem besides me.
Trust me, compared to the anti drain valve on the Motorcraft filter,
the ones in regular orange Fram filters suck.
Period. And I've proven to myself on my own vehicle. I've never seen
the problem with any other filter on that engine. Only the Fram.
Many others have proven it to themselves also. It's a common topic
on the Ford truck forums I hang out on.
But it's also a known problem with the Mopar slant six 229's.
As far as the "dropping oil pressure", I'd say starting an engine when
cold and waiting extended periods of time for *any* oil pressure would
qualify. It's not anything one would normally miss being as the
engine
will be clacking like crazy. :(
Think what you want, but you will never see me using a Fram filter
again, even if they do work acceptably in many other applications.
Which I'm sure they probably do.. They don't work in all of them
though, and the other brands do.
I know which line I'll be in and it won't be the one with the big "F"
up at the window. :/
cl...@snyder.on.ca
wrote:
They were junk when they were Allied Signal, and when they were their
own company before that. Who the "banker" is doesn't improve quality.
Nate Nagel
way, WAY back in the day, they were apparently pretty good. And from
what I've heard the media in their air filters is decent, it's just the
*construction* of the oil filters that is suspect.
Hachiroku ハチロク
>
>
>> I just find it funny that on three older cars, replacing the existing
>> filter with a Fram resulted in lower oil pressures.
>
> It doesn't take much to amuse <SLAP!>
Go away, you irritating man. Isn't there the underside of a rock just
about your size?
Hachiroku ハチロク
LOL! But, adding to another part of this thread, whatever happened to Lee?
I used them in all my Toyotas until ~1986 and had no problems at all with
them!
Daniel Who Wants to Know
news:70d8d69c-b25e-48f5...@p23g2000vbl.googlegroups.com...
On Nov 22, 9:39 pm, "Daniel Who Wants to Know"
<danielthechs...@merrychristmasi.com> wrote:
> Put a Wix 51515 on it and you won't have a problem again.
>
> Daniel
> Bought a 95 Grand Caravan SE 3.3l with 223,000 miles on it for $800 and
> immediatly changed to a 51515 and Mobil 1 5w30 non-EP. I have 10k miles of
> my own on the van now and the engine is still going strong.
That number sounds familiar... same filter as a 225 leaning tower of
power maybe?
nate
The 51515 is AKA a Motorcraft FL1A. It is the filter specified for most
Fords and is just a longer version of the 51085 that is speced for the
Chryslers. The even larger version is the 51773 but according to Wix it
only has a 30 micron rating whereas the 51515 and 51085 have a 19 micron
rating therefore it may be useful for cleaning up a sludged and/or neglected
engine.
cl...@snyder.on.ca
wrote:
Their quality "went south" in the late '60s or early '70s in a big
way. That said, they were NEVER as good as a Wix or a Hastings /
Casite even back then.
cl...@snyder.on.ca
Yes, the FL1A is the same application as the Fram PH8A - fit Ford,
Mopar, Toyota, and many other apps.
Fatter Than Ever Moe
Someone volunteer to to put two accurate oil pressure gauges on
something, say a 98 Toyota Camry 4 cylinder. One before the filter, one
after. The pressure differential will indicated the amount of pressure
drop when the filter is new, if the relief is working when cold, and the
amount of resistance as the filter clogs up and if the filter media
ruptures. Also need a couple of accurate flow meter to determine volume
of oil in the different flow circuits and of course a temp gauge at the
entrance to the oil filter, and a recording chart or maybe a software
program and laptop to record all the numbers....... then come up with
the specs on what a filter should do for how long and keep the cost
under 4 dollars retail.
PRESTO ! You have reinvented the wheel!
Or you could do like I used to do with my old 73 Chev Nova SS 6
cylinder, carry a spare filter, the oil pressure sender on that one was
after the filter, when the pressure dropped with a warm engine I
changed the filter.
Whatever, I use Fram, they meet factory specs and do the job for my
kind of driving. If you are really worried about engine life, drive
easy until the engine is warmed up, then keep driving easy and you
should get all the designed life from the engine and probably quite a
bit more.
The national debt on Nov 20, 2009 was
12,010,561,742,215.21
ben91932
>
> NOPE! After I changed the oil and took it for a test, the oil pressure
> guage had dropped a whole mark off halfway! I don't believe it!
>
My wag (wild ass guess) is that the prior owner had motor honey in it
to prop up the pressure, and if I'm right all the filter changes wont
help. I sure hope I'm wrong as a lower end is a bit more $ than a
filter.
Ben
jim
Fatter Than Ever Moe wrote:
>
> Hachiroku ハチロク wrote:
> > On Mon, 23 Nov 2009 20:35:54 -0600, jim wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>> I just find it funny that on three older cars, replacing the existing
> >>> filter with a Fram resulted in lower oil pressures.
> >> It doesn't take much to amuse <SLAP!>
> >
> > Go away, you irritating man. Isn't there the underside of a rock just
> > about your size?
> >
> >
> >
>
> Someone volunteer to to put two accurate oil pressure gauges on
> something, say a 98 Toyota Camry 4 cylinder. One before the filter, one
> after. The pressure differential will indicated the amount of pressure
> drop when the filter is new, if the relief is working when cold, and the
> amount of resistance as the filter clogs up and if the filter media
> ruptures. Also need a couple of accurate flow meter to determine volume
> of oil in the different flow circuits and of course a temp gauge at the
> entrance to the oil filter, and a recording chart or maybe a software
> program and laptop to record all the numbers....... then come up with
> the specs on what a filter should do for how long and keep the cost
> under 4 dollars retail.
Right. but no one here is going to do a meaningful experiment. What they
will rely on is the partial evidence available ( the gauge on the dash
board ).
If the engine is in good shape the fact that one filter offers slightly
more resistance than another shouldn't make any noticeable difference on
the dash oil pressure gauge. The pressure relief valve controls the
pressure. It's only when the engine and/or oil pump is badly worn that
you are going to see the effects of different filter media on the oil
pressure gauge ( if the vehicle has a gauge )
-jim
jim
Nate Nagel wrote:
>
> Nate Nagel wrote:
> > jim wrote:
> >>
> >> Nate Nagel wrote:
> >>
> >>> Everyone who's ever owned a car with an "upside down" oil filter knows
> >>> that Fram ADBVs suck.
> >>
> >> Yeah and everybody knows the moon is made of green cheese. BTW which way
> >> is upside down for a filter/
> >
> > Base up. Base down doesn't require an ADBV unless there's a siphon
> > effect somehow.
>
> FRAG! I knew what I was thinking, but typed the exact opposite.
>
> Base UP (as in a SBC and most other old school V-8s with an integral
> filter mount) is "normal." Base DOWN (e.g. slant-six, Porsche 944, old
> Ferrari V-12, etc.) *requires* an ADBV, either as part of the filter or
> part of the base.
OK. I almost asked which side of the filter you called base. FYI unless
you have a leak in the plumbing or oil pump, there should always be a
syphon back to the pan even if the filter has the inlet facing up. If
there is no check valve that keeps the oil from draining back to the pan
it will syphon back.
My personal experience is that I know for a fact that large fleets of
b-100 dodge vans with slant sixes were using Fram filters back in the
70's (early 80's too IIRC) without any problem. So I tend to believe
mechanics that I know were handling Fram filters every day versus
believing someone whose stated position is they never ever handle a Fram
filter.
I recall there was an issue with the slant six oil filters. Sometime
back in the 60's or early 70's they changed the size of the filter on
some slant sixes to a shorty version (IIRC trucks had an extra heavy
duty version). The problem was some people used the old long filters
thinking that would give them better protection. What happened when the
long filter was used in this application was the filter would have an
air pocket trapped in the top of the filter. That air bubble would be
compressed when the engine was running and the filter behaved more or
less normally while the engine ran. But when the engine was turned off
the compressed air bubble would expand and push the oil out into the
engine. That meant when you re-started the engine it need to push that
quart or so of oil back into the filter before the engine would get any
oil pressure. An incorrect interpretation of what was happening under
those circumstances may be how this superstitious belief about Fram
filters and slant sixes got started.
-jim
E. Meyer
<njn...@roosters.net> wrote:
> Everyone who's ever owned a car with an "upside down" oil filter knows
> that Fram ADBVs suck. They don't work more often than they do, or at
> least that was the case the last time I used one, 15 years ago.
>
> nate
"...15 years ago" - that's the problem with this whole thread. Everybody is
arguing antique anecdotal evidence and apparently no one has any actual
facts to contribute. For all we know from this discussion, they had one bad
production run in 1994 and everybody is still talking about it.
Try this experiment - the next time you change the oil filter, up end the
old one and see how long it take to drain out. I'll bet you find no
difference from one brand to another, I know I haven't. Nobody's ADBVs work
worth a damn.
The real issue is whether the filter media meets mfr's specs & that element
seems to never enter into the discussion.
Hachiroku ハチロク
>> Someone volunteer to to put two accurate oil pressure gauges on
>> something, say a 98 Toyota Camry 4 cylinder. One before the filter, one
>> after. The pressure differential will indicated the amount of pressure
>> drop when the filter is new, if the relief is working when cold, and the
>> amount of resistance as the filter clogs up and if the filter media
>> ruptures. Also need a couple of accurate flow meter to determine volume
>> of oil in the different flow circuits and of course a temp gauge at the
>> entrance to the oil filter, and a recording chart or maybe a software
>> program and laptop to record all the numbers....... then come up with
>> the specs on what a filter should do for how long and keep the cost
>> under 4 dollars retail.
>
> Right. but no one here is going to do a meaningful experiment. What they
> will rely on is the partial evidence available ( the gauge on the dash
> board ).
>
> If the engine is in good shape the fact that one filter offers slightly
> more resistance than another shouldn't make any noticeable difference on
> the dash oil pressure gauge. The pressure relief valve controls the
> pressure. It's only when the engine and/or oil pump is badly worn that
> you are going to see the effects of different filter media on the oil
> pressure gauge ( if the vehicle has a gauge )
>
> -jim
Wow! A succinct answer!
But, if you're using the guage on the dash, it doesn't matter how accurate
it is. It's relative. If it's off by a few PSI, chances are it's going to
be off across the spectrum.
And, no, I paid $400 for the car 2 1/2 years ago, it's rusting and I don't
know if I'm going to bother with it after this year. Maybe, I like it. But
it's a beater, and I want to make sure it *gets* through this winter.
I may fix it because it is kind of a fun car to drive, but it is what it
is. If I can do it cheap, OK. If not, the shredder is about 2 miles down
the street.
When I do the oil change, probably sooner than the 3,000 miles I usually
do, because winter is creeping up, I'm trying a different filter. If the
oil p comes back up, good! If not...did I mention the shredder is about 2
miles away?
Scott Dorsey
>
>At CarQuest, we sold Wix branded filters, at about $5 per filter, and
>CarQuest filters, which were also Wix, at $3.99...wonder what the
>difference was...
>
>(Other than $1, of course!)
Tear one of each open and find out. They could be dramatically different,
they might not be different at all. That's the whole thing about contract
manufacturing. If the retailer goes to the manufacturer and asks for good,
he gets good. If he asks for cheap, he gets cheap.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Vic Smith
wrote:
Just for kicks, here's a look at filters one guy did.
http://people.msoe.edu/~yoderw/oilfilterstudy/oilfilterstudy-updates.html
10 years old.
But you could study a filter today, and tomorrow they change it at the
factory.
I've used all kinds of filters, and my practice is to dump their
contents into the drain pan. They all dump their contents just fine.
Some might glug a bit more than others. BFG.
Never had a base down oil filter configuration. Most seem to have
been base-up at about 45 degrees. My Ford 352 was the only one
I can recall that was close to vertical - base up. Most of my cars
have been GM.
They'll dump some oil when removed. A rag is your friend. No big
deal.
How many here fill their new filter with oil? I never did.
Never noticed any undue lack of pressure when starting up with a dry
new filter either.
I think most lifter noise at startup is because they are cold, not
because they don't almost immediately pump up.
Anyway I don't pay much attention to filters, except I don't buy Fram.
Usually just go with AC.
Not because I know anything about them, but because the raps against
Fram filtered in long ago. Funny how a rep can stick, whether still
deserved or not.
Anyway, filter selection is mostly voodoo.
Never liked the idea of toilet paper oil filters, will say that.
--Vic
Mike Hunter
"Scott Dorsey" <klu...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:hegsjp$msk$1...@panix2.panix.com...
Kevin
news:4b0c299c$0$1863$ce5e...@news-radius.ptd.net:
> You are forgetting ALL oil filters have an internal pressure relief
> value.
No they don`t, many of the cheep ones don`t have one to reduce costs.
KB
--
THUNDERSNAKE #9
Protect your rights or "Lose" them
The 2nd Admendment guarantees the others
cl...@snyder.on.ca
About 4 years ago, just before I got rid of our 1988 3.0 liter New
Yorker it got a Fram filter installed - and the lifters clattered on
startup - about 30 seconds on a warm day, up to 90 seconds on a cooler
day. oil pressure took longer to come up. I didn't leave it on for the
full 5000Km - changed it to a Wix manufactured Napa filter and the
clatter went away - immediately.
cl...@snyder.on.ca
Not true. Some depend on the bypass valve on the car.
Carvair was a case in point. Filter bypass is in the filter base.
hls
"E. Meyer" <epme...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:C7313DDB.14358%epme...@gmail.com...
> Everybody is
> arguing antique anecdotal evidence and apparently no one has any actual
> facts to contribute. For all we know from this discussion, they had one
> bad
> production run in 1994 and everybody is still talking about it.
You got that right!
Nate Nagel
meanwhile Wix, Purolator, and Champion Labs have NEVER had a bad run
significant enough to register on our collective radar screens. 'nuff said.
cl...@snyder.on.ca
Been a lot more than one "bad run", both before and after 1994.
Fram plant (allied signal) in Canada was about 35 miles from here and
an aquaintance several years back used to work there.
He jumped ship to Kralinator IIRC, have lost contact with him since
Hachiroku ハチロク
> hls wrote:
>>
>> "E. Meyer" <epme...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:C7313DDB.14358%epme...@gmail.com...
>>> Everybody is
>>> arguing antique anecdotal evidence and apparently no one has any actual
>>> facts to contribute. For all we know from this discussion, they had
>>> one bad
>>> production run in 1994 and everybody is still talking about it.
>>
>>
>> You got that right!
>
> meanwhile Wix, Purolator, and Champion Labs have NEVER had a bad run
> significant enough to register on our collective radar screens. 'nuff
> said.
>
> nate
We're going to try to get the Caravan into our guitar player's shop to do
the brakes, and at the same time I'm going to have him get me a Wix filter
for the Soob. It's 800 miles early, but the oil p dropped and started that
horrible clacking noise again. It's supposed to be nice Sat and Sun, so
I'll do an early oil change.
Results posted when I do.
Note: changing the oil does not always result in stopping the clacking...
Hachiroku ハチロク
Oh, yeah. You're Canadian eh. Did you once say you're near Kitchener?
C. E. White
"jim" <"sjedgingN0Sp"@m@mwt,net> wrote in message
news:YaCdnUuiwNQXepbW...@bright.net...
> OK. I almost asked which side of the filter you called base. FYI unless
> you have a leak in the plumbing or oil pump, there should always be a
> syphon back to the pan even if the filter has the inlet facing up. If
> there is no check valve that keeps the oil from draining back to the pan
> it will syphon back.
Most filters have an anti-drainback valve (or if not, then there is usually
one elsewhere in the system). On Ford modular V8, if you get a filter with a
marginal anti-drain back vlave, then you are likely to get chain rattle if
the engine sets over an extended period of time. The cam drive chains are
tensioned by oil pressure, and if the oil drains out of the system, it take
a heartbeat to build up pressure to the point that it can tension the
chains. During this period, you can hear the chains rattle.
> My personal experience is that I know for a fact that large fleets of
> b-100 dodge vans with slant sixes were using Fram filters back in the
> 70's (early 80's too IIRC) without any problem. So I tend to believe
> mechanics that I know were handling Fram filters every day versus
> believing someone whose stated position is they never ever handle a Fram
> filter.
Fram filter may be just fine 99% of the time, but I don't like the way they
are made. I don't like the paper end caps, the sloppy gluing, the crummy
bypass valve, or the hard rubber anti-drain back valve of the standard
orange FRAM filters. The higher priced Tough Guard filters are better, but
cost more than better quality Motorcraft or Wix filters.
> I recall there was an issue with the slant six oil filters. Sometime
> back in the 60's or early 70's they changed the size of the filter on
> some slant sixes to a shorty version (IIRC trucks had an extra heavy
> duty version). The problem was some people used the old long filters
> thinking that would give them better protection. What happened when the
> long filter was used in this application was the filter would have an
> air pocket trapped in the top of the filter. That air bubble would be
> compressed when the engine was running and the filter behaved more or
> less normally while the engine ran. But when the engine was turned off
> the compressed air bubble would expand and push the oil out into the
> engine. That meant when you re-started the engine it need to push that
> quart or so of oil back into the filter before the engine would get any
> oil pressure. An incorrect interpretation of what was happening under
> those circumstances may be how this superstitious belief about Fram
> filters and slant sixes got started.
You can find plenty of horror stories regarding FRAM filters. I am sure you
can find some related to other brands as well, but I think FRAM filters have
generated more horror stories than all the others combined.
I don't buy the compressed air theory. I've seen filters installed at all
sorts of angles. They all get air in them when the engine is shut down.
Ed
cl...@snyder.on.ca
wrote:
In Waterloo actually - can't tell the difference driving through.
Home of the Blackberry. Stratford is just down the road - home of
Fram/Allied Signal Canadian operations (and Kralinator too)
Right next to Cambridge, home of the Corolla and a hop skip and a jump
from Ingersol's CAMI plant and Woodstock's RAV4 and Hino plants.
hls
"Nate Nagel" <njn...@roosters.net> wrote in message
news:hei31...@news7.newsguy.com...
> hls wrote:
>>
>> "E. Meyer" <epme...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:C7313DDB.14358%epme...@gmail.com...
>>> Everybody is
>>> arguing antique anecdotal evidence and apparently no one has any actual
>>> facts to contribute. For all we know from this discussion, they had one
>>> bad
>>> production run in 1994 and everybody is still talking about it.
>>
>>
>> You got that right!
>
> meanwhile Wix, Purolator, and Champion Labs have NEVER had a bad run
> significant enough to register on our collective radar screens. 'nuff
> said.
>
> nate
The important point, for me, was that so many people jump on this bandwagon
and there is very little or no objective data on the subject. This business
of cutting
open filters and declaring them good or no good got a lot of this started,
and it
had no relevance at all.
Ed White
> "Nate Nagel" <njna...@roosters.net> wrote in message
>
> news:hei31...@news7.newsguy.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> > hls wrote:
>
> >> "E. Meyer" <epmeye...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> >>news:C7313DDB.14358%epme...@gmail.com...
> >>> Everybody is
> >>> arguing antique anecdotal evidence and apparently no one has any actual
> >>> facts to contribute. For all we know from this discussion, they had one
> >>> bad
> >>> production run in 1994 and everybody is still talking about it.
>
> >> You got that right!
>
> > meanwhile Wix, Purolator, and Champion Labs have NEVER had a bad run
> > significant enough to register on our collective radar screens. 'nuff
> > said.
>
> > nate
>
> The important point, for me, was that so many people jump on this bandwagon
> and there is very little or no objective data on the subject. This business
> of cutting
> open filters and declaring them good or no good got a lot of this started,
> and it
>
> - Show quoted text -
I disagree. Examining the components that make up a filter is a first
step. You might not be able to determine the actual quality of the
filter material, but you certianly can see a major difference in
quality between a regular grade FRAM filter and a WIX or Motorcraft
filter. I've cut open numerous used filter and more than once I've
seen FRAMs with detached end caps. The regular grade FRAM filter may
be adequate for the job, but a look at the insides of regular grade
FROM filters convined me that they are not as good as filters from
Motorcraft or Wix that have comparable (or even lower) prices.
FRAM does not claim to have particuarly good filtering efficiency, and
they do appear to have cut corners on the interior construction. So in
my mind the question is not if FRAM filters are OK, the question is,
Given that FRAM filters are not particualrly cheap, why would I buy
one?
Ed
Nate Nagel
*chuckle* no it does not...
once upon a time I bought a BMW 535i with high miles and an exhaust leak
(but near pristine body and interior)
had the exhaust leak fixed and adjusted the valves (solid lifter cam)
noise did not go away...
spun a rod bearing a couple kilomiles later :(
Actually had the engine replaced with a junkyard motor but sold the car
when I moved to VA. Was a great car but the cost of rebuilding the
suspension (would have needed it soon enough) and buying new wheels to
replace the original metric TRX wheels was more than the car was worth
Nate Nagel
My prejudice against Fram is not based on that, but on other factors.
1) Back in around 1996/1997 or so, I bought a '67 Dart. One thing I did
not like about the car was that when I'd start it first thing in the
morning, it would rattle and clank and the oil light would take a long
time to go out. (it'd quiet down and run silky smooth as soon as the
oil light went out, so it was obviously an oil pressure issue.) The
first time I changed the oil, I just went to the corner FLAPS and bought
whatever they offered - turned out to be a Wix filter. The filter I
took off was a Fram. Ever after, whenever I started it, it'd knock once
or twice and immediately run quiet, and the oil pressure light would go
out almost immediately. After asking online I found that this was not
uncommon. Subsequently my then-girlfriend bought a '69 Valiant with the
same engine and it exhibited the same symptoms and responded to the same
fix.
2) Lots of anecdotal reports of Frams failing at the crimp between the
base and can on a cold start on watercooled VW engines (which use heavy
oil - recommended xW40 or xW50 - and can develop 100 PSI or more on a
cold start, I've seen this myself on cars equipped with an oil pressure
gauge) I never experienced this myself, as by the time I got my first
VW I was already soured on Fram by my slant six experiences. In fact, I
ran a Canton/Mecca filter on my Scirocco because I thought I was going
to keep that car forever (and in retrospect, I should have.)
jim
The fact is it has been scientifically proven that Fram filters do a
better job than Wix for removing the smallest particles from the oil.
That was not determined by cutting filters open but by doing tests on
the oil after many miles of service. And the effects of not filtering
the finest particles takes many years and many miles to show up. The
look of the filter may be important to you, but many taxi and delivery
services use fram filters because they are more interested in the
results than what the filter looks like on the inside.
>
> FRAM does not claim to have particuarly good filtering efficiency, and
> they do appear to have cut corners on the interior construction. So in
> my mind the question is not if FRAM filters are OK, the question is,
> Given that FRAM filters are not particualrly cheap, why would I buy
> one?
Because tests have shown they do remove smaller particles than wix or
purolator. That can be a good thing or a bad thing. If you have an old
beater that is loaded up with an accumulation of those fines plus a worn
out oil pump from many years of pumping those small particles putting a
Fram filter on the engine can lead to trouble.
-jim
Nate Nagel
So? Running with no oil pressure for >10 sec at a time is way more
detrimental to the life of an engine than <10 micron particles.
Taxi service may actually be a good application for Fram filters as they
don't do many cold starts per mile compared to regular private use vehicles.
hls
I understand your personal feelings about Fram. I dont use them either
anymore,
but have never had one fail on me. (I prefer not to swim upstream on
matters like this).
I am talking strictly about hard data, and there is little or none available
on filters
in general. I am sure the data exists, but extracting it is like pulling
teeth.
> 2) Lots of anecdotal reports of Frams failing at the crimp between the
> base and can on a cold start
Yeah, Ive heard this sort of anecdotal story before, but I have never
experienced
it, nor do I know anyone who has. It could be true....or not.
jim
Maybe yes if in fact that was the valid choice one faced. But unless
you are one of those guys on the internet with beater who swears he
would never use a Fram that isn't going to be the choice you're faced
with. That business of running with no oil pressure doesn't happen to
cars in good condition. If it did you can bet the dealerships would be
deluged with complaints because lots late model cars have Fram filters
on them and you can bet customers would be complaining.
> Taxi service may actually be a good application for Fram filters as they
> don't do many cold starts per mile compared to regular private use vehicles.
I've never seen any evidence that cold starts are a problem. I have
seen plenty of slant sixes with Fram filters and not a single one had
that problem. If there was a problem I would think the auto makers
would be concerned about engine damage from using Fram filters. But the
automakers aren't complaining about harm to new engines. The complaints
are all coming from guys on the internet with old worn out engines.
And what's with this cutting filters open and getting all panicked when
you see cardboard on the end of the filters? I used to have a chevy 283
with a canister filter. Every filter I put on that engine had cardboard
on both ends of the filter. For 30 years I saw that cardboard on every
filter I put on and every one I took off and not once did it look like
that was something I should be concerned about. Seemed like pretty
sturdy design to me.
-jim
Hachiroku ハチロク
I knew Cambridge was the home of the Corolla (and Matrix and Pontiac
Vibe), but i didn't know there was a Hino plant! How long has that been
there?
When I was married to my wife, we used to go stay at her sister's house
in Oshawa...with an upstairs balcony view of the Oshawa Assembly plant.
There is a lot of the automotive industry, both the big guns, and the
supplers in Ontario. At least there was until Bush 1 signed the Fair Trade
Agreement. Then all the suppliers that had Canadian plants closed them up,
since they didn't have to meet the Canadian 1/3 content laws anymore...
Hachiroku ハチロク
>> meanwhile Wix, Purolator, and Champion Labs have NEVER had a bad run
>> significant enough to register on our collective radar screens. 'nuff
>> said.
>>
>> nate
>
> The important point, for me, was that so many people jump on this
> bandwagon and there is very little or no objective data on the subject.
> This business of cutting
> open filters and declaring them good or no good got a lot of this started,
> and it
> had no relevance at all.
LOL! Not really! Lowered oil pressure in three cars with Fram filters got
this thread started!
Hachiroku ハチロク
> That can be a good thing or a bad thing. If you have an old
> beater that is loaded up with an accumulation of those fines plus a worn
> out oil pump from many years of pumping those small particles putting a
> Fram filter on the engine can lead to trouble.
Oil pump is in fine condition. I took it off and tested it.
cl...@snyder.on.ca
wrote:
Funny thing, a slant six has mechanical lifters, so low oil pressure
does not cause the light clatter that say, a Chevy six, or a 318
exhibits. Rod knock on startup IS SERIOUS.
cl...@snyder.on.ca
wrote:
They might filter the fine stuff when they stay together, but when
the paper end comes off the filter media, it dilters NOTHING.
And they DO come off. Not every one, but WAY too many.
cl...@snyder.on.ca
wrote:
>
>Maybe yes if in fact that was the valid choice one faced. But unless
>you are one of those guys on the internet with beater who swears he
>would never use a Fram that isn't going to be the choice you're faced
>with. That business of running with no oil pressure doesn't happen to
>cars in good condition. If it did you can bet the dealerships would be
>deluged with complaints because lots late model cars have Fram filters
>on them and you can bet customers would be complaining.
You'd be surprized how long an engine can run with NO OIL AT ALL,
particularly with solid lifters. - but there IS damage being done.
Do it too often, and the engine WILL fail.
>> Taxi service may actually be a good application for Fram filters as they
>> don't do many cold starts per mile compared to regular private use vehicles.
Often several thousand miles without a cold start in large metro area
cabs.
>
> I've never seen any evidence that cold starts are a problem. I have
>seen plenty of slant sixes with Fram filters and not a single one had
>that problem. If there was a problem I would think the auto makers
>would be concerned about engine damage from using Fram filters. But the
>automakers aren't complaining about harm to new engines. The complaints
>are all coming from guys on the internet with old worn out engines.
>
> And what's with this cutting filters open and getting all panicked when
>you see cardboard on the end of the filters? I used to have a chevy 283
>with a canister filter. Every filter I put on that engine had cardboard
>on both ends of the filter. For 30 years I saw that cardboard on every
>filter I put on and every one I took off and not once did it look like
>that was something I should be concerned about. Seemed like pretty
>sturdy design to me.
Aircraft filters are cuy open at EVERY oil change to check for metal
etc - and to verify the filtering capability as a secondary issue.
cl...@snyder.on.ca
wrote:
No Vibes out of Cambridge as far as I know, and the Hino plant has
been there 2 or 3 years.
>
>When I was married to my wife, we used to go stay at her sister's house
>in Oshawa...with an upstairs balcony view of the Oshawa Assembly plant.
>There is a lot of the automotive industry, both the big guns, and the
>supplers in Ontario. At least there was until Bush 1 signed the Fair Trade
>Agreement. Then all the suppliers that had Canadian plants closed them up,
>since they didn't have to meet the Canadian 1/3 content laws anymore...
Kitchener has lost the vast majority of it's automotive parts
manufacturing, and BOTH tire plants. Kitchener Frame, formerly Budd
Automotive, just closed for good last year. Almost lost lear seating
this year.. Lost most of the tool and die businresses too.
>
>
Hachiroku ハチロク
> No Vibes out of Cambridge as far as I know, and the Hino plant has been
> there 2 or 3 years.
The Vibe was being built on the same line as the Matrix. We used to see
them on the trucks with the..um...Matrices (?) being delivered!
>>
>>When I was married to my wife, we used to go stay at her sister's house
>>in Oshawa...with an upstairs balcony view of the Oshawa Assembly plant.
>>There is a lot of the automotive industry, both the big guns, and the
>>supplers in Ontario. At least there was until Bush 1 signed the Fair
>>Trade Agreement. Then all the suppliers that had Canadian plants closed
>>them up, since they didn't have to meet the Canadian 1/3 content laws
>>anymore...
>
> Kitchener has lost the vast majority of it's automotive parts
> manufacturing, and BOTH tire plants. Kitchener Frame, formerly Budd
> Automotive, just closed for good last year. Almost lost lear seating this
> year.. Lost most of the tool and die businresses too.
Both my Sister in law and her husband lost real good jobs when the Fair
Trade Agreement came on line. I don't know what...er, was it Mulroney at
the time? was thinking...
Hachiroku ハチロク
> The complaints are all
> coming from guys on the internet with old worn out engines.
Hmmm...change the filter, the oil pressure drops. On one car...ok..old
worn out engine.
Two cars? Well, maybe old worn out engines.
Three cars? I'm beginning to see a trend here.
And one of the old, worn out engines only has 139,000 miles on it, not
much for a Japanese car. And records I do have show oil changes every
4,500 miles.
Hachiroku ハチロク
>>Maybe yes if in fact that was the valid choice one faced. But unless you
>>are one of those guys on the internet with beater who swears he would
>>never use a Fram that isn't going to be the choice you're faced with.
>>That business of running with no oil pressure doesn't happen to cars in
>>good condition. If it did you can bet the dealerships would be deluged
>>with complaints because lots late model cars have Fram filters on them
>>and you can bet customers would be complaining.
>
>
> You'd be surprized how long an engine can run with NO OIL AT ALL,
> particularly with solid lifters. - but there IS damage being done. Do it
> too often, and the engine WILL fail.
Which also gets me. Soobs have horizontally opposed engines, with the
cylinders lying flat just above the oil line. So, not all of the oil
drains out of the cylinders, so when you start, they aren't totally 'dry'
like an upright engine is.
Nate Nagel
You haven't seen it so it isn't a problem. So why did I see it on two
different cars? Which is the sum total of my experience with slant
sixes? Meaning that Frams had a 100% failure rate for me on that engine?
No, they weren't "worn out beaters" (well, one *was* a beater but it had
a "fresh reman" engine in it - the other was all original with 80K
miles.) And what difference does it make anyway? You really mean to
say that a Wix filter can heal a worn out engine to the point that it
makes the oil pressure come up faster? Sounds kinda magical, but if so,
I'm gonna keep using Wix for sure!
jim
Nate Nagel wrote:
> You haven't seen it so it isn't a problem.
Me and the car manufacturers and many knowledable mechanics haven't seen
it as a problem.
I have seen where a fram filter used on an old engine that previously
used another brand filter did plug up pretty damn fast. And when I
removed the Fram filter, it felt heavy like it was full of lead. That
happened in just an hour of engine operation. So yes I do get why some
people are having problems. But in my opinion the filter is not really
the cause.
> So why did I see it on two
> different cars? Which is the sum total of my experience with slant
> sixes? Meaning that Frams had a 100% failure rate for me on that engine?
The point you can't seem to grasp is that the common denominator here
is not the Fram filter, but the application it is used on - an old
engine. The car manufacturers have not found a problem with Fram filters
on their late model engines.
Do you know for a fact that the tube on the slant six filter housing
was the correct length for the filter you installed? Do you know if
someone had removed or replaced that part and if replaced was it
original equipment? The answer to those questions is obviously no, but
yet you're superstitious belief is that the filter is to blame and not
your misapplication of the filter.
BTW I just looked up that part up and it is described as OIL FILTER
STANDPIPE/VALVE. That sounds to me like the engine came with a check
valve in the filter outlet tube. But that valve isn't going to help
prevent the symptoms you described if the tube (standpipe) is the wrong
length for the filter.
This old article from Popular Mechanics contains a short description of
the problem:
>
> No, they weren't "worn out beaters" (well, one *was* a beater but it had
> a "fresh reman" engine in it - the other was all original with 80K
> miles.) And what difference does it make anyway?
You tell me what difference it makes - I don't have the engine. If I had
the engine I could probably tell you where the problem is.
> You really mean to
> say that a Wix filter can heal a worn out engine to the point that it
> makes the oil pressure come up faster? Sounds kinda magical, but if so,
> I'm gonna keep using Wix for sure!
Yeah well maybe if a filter that removes more dirt from the oil had been
used all along there would never be a problem. But you and your
superstitions are free to do whatever you want.
-jim
nm...@wt.net
>
> You haven't seen it so it isn't a problem. So why did I see it on two
> different cars? Which is the sum total of my experience with slant
> sixes? Meaning that Frams had a 100% failure rate for me on that engine?
>
> No, they weren't "worn out beaters" (well, one *was* a beater but it had
> a "fresh reman" engine in it - the other was all original with 80K
> miles.) And what difference does it make anyway? You really mean to
> say that a Wix filter can heal a worn out engine to the point that it
> makes the oil pressure come up faster? Sounds kinda magical, but if so,
> I'm gonna keep using Wix for sure!
>
> nate
Mine wasn't a beater either. Kinda funny that it broke in and ran
perfect with no oil pressure issues at all until I tried a Fram
filter.
I suspect some might find it hilarious that the problem vanished
once I took the Fram filter off and never returned.
Dunno about you Nate, but I was born yesterday, but not last
night. :/
Whether this has anything to do with the OP's problem I don't
know. I'd never heard of a Fram filter causing lower run pressures.
That's a new one on me, but there is no doubt at all that the
anti drain valves are fairly useless.
Normally, if one noticed a lower pressure by using a certain filter,
I would suspect it is restrictive, usually due to being a "super"
filtering model. But the orange Fram filter is not one of those.
It's a stock plain jane filter.
I'll be interested to hear what the pressures are when he changes
to another brand filter. I forgot what he said they are running as
far as pressure. In general, you usually want to see about 10
pounds of pressure for each 1000 rpm. IE: 3000 rpm, you should
see at least 30 lb's oil pressure.
jim
nm...@wt.net wrote:
>
> On Nov 26, 6:49 am, Nate Nagel <njna...@roosters.net> wrote:
>
> >
> > You haven't seen it so it isn't a problem. So why did I see it on two
> > different cars? Which is the sum total of my experience with slant
> > sixes? Meaning that Frams had a 100% failure rate for me on that engine?
> >
> > No, they weren't "worn out beaters" (well, one *was* a beater but it had
> > a "fresh reman" engine in it - the other was all original with 80K
> > miles.) And what difference does it make anyway? You really mean to
> > say that a Wix filter can heal a worn out engine to the point that it
> > makes the oil pressure come up faster? Sounds kinda magical, but if so,
> > I'm gonna keep using Wix for sure!
> >
> > nate
>
> Mine wasn't a beater either.
Well if it was rebuilt it wasn't new and likely wasn't anywhere close to
being like original. Are you talking about a slant six engine?
> perfect with no oil pressure issues at all until I tried a Fram
> filter.
It's kinda suspicious that you can't keep your story straight.
Previously you said Fram was used right after the rebuild. Now you make
it sound like you used other filters and used the Fram much later. You
know anyone can make up a story and tell it on usenet.
-jim
Vic Smith
wrote:
> BTW I just looked up that part up and it is described as OIL FILTER
>STANDPIPE/VALVE. That sounds to me like the engine came with a check
>valve in the filter outlet tube. But that valve isn't going to help
>prevent the symptoms you described if the tube (standpipe) is the wrong
>length for the filter.
>
>This old article from Popular Mechanics contains a short description of
>the problem:
>
>http://tinyurl.com/yzku2ps
>
The guy in the article said he had the same problem with all filters,
so that standpipe might be the answer.
I drove a '74 Dart with that 225 for years and never had an issue.
Lot's of voodoo here.
A knowledge of oil flow through a particular engine where Frams
supposedly cause problems would be useful.
I suspect most of the complaints about Fram have nothing to do with
drainback, but with resistance to flow.
Maybe air pocketing and how the particular system handles that.
Just a guess, though. But nothing an oil pressure gage couldn't
determine pretty quick with the right method.
--Vic
Hachiroku ハチロク
>> No, they weren't "worn out beaters" (well, one *was* a beater but it had
>> a "fresh reman" engine in it - the other was all original with 80K
>> miles.) And what difference does it make anyway? You really mean to
>> say that a Wix filter can heal a worn out engine to the point that it
>> makes the oil pressure come up faster? Sounds kinda magical, but if
>> so, I'm gonna keep using Wix for sure!
>>
>> nate
>
> Mine wasn't a beater either. Kinda funny that it broke in and ran perfect
> with no oil pressure issues at all until I tried a Fram filter.
I started this thread because a while ago I posted a post in the Soob
group about my '89 losing oil pressure. Now, the oil pressure wasn't
fantastic when I bought it, but it got worse, *FAST*! Then someone made a
remark about Fram oil filters. Now, I use Quaker State, Castrol and
Valvoline (Mostly QS and Castrol) in my engines; never the bargain
basement or Wal*Mart stuff. I get the oil at AutoZone,and they often have
a deal including a Fram filter, so I get them.
I'll be replacing the Fram on the Soob with a Wix this weekend, and we'll
see what happens...
It's just funny, on three different cars, after installing a Fram filter
the oil pressure suffered an immediate drop!
Is it a good filter? I hope so. I usually use the Extra Gaurd, and the
last 'special' was a Tough Gaurd, but still the pressure dropped...
cl...@snyder.on.ca
wrote:
>On Wed, 25 Nov 2009 23:06:13 -0500, clare wrote:
The Vibe was built at Nummi in California.
cl...@snyder.on.ca
wrote:
>
>
>Nate Nagel wrote:
>
>> You haven't seen it so it isn't a problem.
>
>Me and the car manufacturers and many knowledable mechanics haven't seen
>it as a problem.
>
> I have seen where a fram filter used on an old engine that previously
>used another brand filter did plug up pretty damn fast. And when I
>removed the Fram filter, it felt heavy like it was full of lead. That
>happened in just an hour of engine operation. So yes I do get why some
>people are having problems. But in my opinion the filter is not really
>the cause.
>
>
>> So why did I see it on two
>> different cars? Which is the sum total of my experience with slant
>> sixes? Meaning that Frams had a 100% failure rate for me on that engine?
>
> The point you can't seem to grasp is that the common denominator here
>is not the Fram filter, but the application it is used on - an old
>engine. The car manufacturers have not found a problem with Fram filters
>on their late model engines.
> Do you know for a fact that the tube on the slant six filter housing
>was the correct length for the filter you installed? Do you know if
>someone had removed or replaced that part and if replaced was it
>original equipment? The answer to those questions is obviously no, but
>yet you're superstitious belief is that the filter is to blame and not
>your misapplication of the filter.
They were all the same pump, regardless if it used the long or short
filter.The standpipe was long untill 1972 so the older engine could
not use the PH43 - only the PH8A (or equivalent) (Long filter)
The FL1A Motorcraft filter is a direct fit replacement for the PH8A
and has a VERY superior construction. The Napa Gold filter is almost
as good and around heare costs more. I believe the FL1A used to be
called the FL30001 - and it had a double sealed drainback valve .
> BTW I just looked up that part up and it is described as OIL FILTER
>STANDPIPE/VALVE. That sounds to me like the engine came with a check
>valve in the filter outlet tube. But that valve isn't going to help
>prevent the symptoms you described if the tube (standpipe) is the wrong
>length for the filter.
There is no valve in the standpipe - or al least there wasn't in the
63 170, the 65 225 or the 69 225. (long standpipe) and I never had
problems using the long non-fram filters on ANY of my Mopars.
Hachiroku ハチロク
> On Thu, 26 Nov 2009 08:11:40 -0600, jim <"sjedgingN0Sp"@m@mwt,net> wrote:
>
>
>>
>>Nate Nagel wrote:
>>
>>> You haven't seen it so it isn't a problem.
<SNIP>
Oh, yeah. I forgot. You guys already had your Thanksgiving...
jim
Yes, but you have no way of knowing what part was on the car in
question. The guy who owned the car doesn't know what it had.
>
> The FL1A Motorcraft filter is a direct fit replacement for the PH8A
> and has a VERY superior construction. The Napa Gold filter is almost
> as good and around heare costs more. I believe the FL1A used to be
> called the FL30001 - and it had a double sealed drainback valve .
>
> > BTW I just looked up that part up and it is described as OIL FILTER
> >STANDPIPE/VALVE. That sounds to me like the engine came with a check
> >valve in the filter outlet tube. But that valve isn't going to help
> >prevent the symptoms you described if the tube (standpipe) is the wrong
> >length for the filter.
>
> There is no valve in the standpipe - or al least there wasn't in the
> 63 170, the 65 225 or the 69 225. (long standpipe) and I never had
> problems using the long non-fram filters on ANY of my Mopars.
Well your missing valve would explain why you were having problems.
But I suspect you were just unaware that the valve was there and quite
likely if you had problems with the oil draining back then the valve was
not functioning properly. Again this is something ore likely to happen
in an old dirty engine. I was not aware there was a check valve in the
outlet, but I never encountered the problem so there would be no reason
to be looking for a cause. It does make sense that this type of design
would need a valve in the outlet.
I found 2 sources that describe the part as "oil filter standpipe
w/valve".
And another popular mechanics article describing what what happens if
the valve sticks in the closed position:
-jim