When Did God Get Into the Wedding Business?

[Mitchell Holman]

When Did God Get Into the Wedding Business?
Feb. 6, 2013,



Was marriage originally a legal or a religious institution?

A legal institution, mostly. Marriage developed independently
in hundreds of human civilizations, so it�s difficult to
pinpoint history�s first marriage or even the society that
first conceived of marriage as an institution. Early Sumerian
marriage agreements, which date to the third millennium B.C.,
are among the oldest records relating to marriage. The couples
swore an oath to a series of deities in a small number of
agreements, but most of the records contain no mention of gods
or religion, suggesting that the Sumerians viewed weddings as
legal events. The terms of marriage were decidedly contractual,
including specific worldly punishments for cheating. There is
no indication that someone who violated the marriage agreement
suffered the eternal wrath of Shamash and Marduk, or that those
deities took a personal interest in strong marriages.

The ancient Hebraic take on marriage is difficult to ascertain.
Scholars have argued for years over whether to translate the
Old Testament word describing a marriage agreement as "contract,"
which is a simple agreement between two parties, or "covenant,"
which includes an additional vow to God. One of the difficulties
is that the Old Testament uses the same word to describe both
God�s relationship with the Israelites and a husband�s promise
to his wife. Some ancient Hebrew writers explicitly analogized
those two commitments, and, of course, the Ten Commandments
mention God�s aversion to adultery. However, like the Sumerian
marriage agreements, documents describing ancient Jewish marriages
are mostly lists of legal obligations and consequences and rarely
contain spiritual language. It�s likely that the idea of marriage
as a sacred union involving God developed over time among ancient
Jews, but the evidence is open to interpretation.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/2013/02/same_se
x_marriage_when_did_weddings_become_religious_events.html

[Steve Hayes]

On Thu, 07 Feb 2013 08:25:26 -0600, Mitchell Holman <nomailverizon.net> wrote:

>When Did God Get Into the Wedding Business?
>Feb. 6, 2013,

In the Garden of Eden

see

http://khanya.wordpress.com/2008/06/18/the-theology-of-christian-marriage/
and
http://ondermynende.wordpress.com/2006/09/17/the-state-should-get-out-of-the-marriage-business-2/


--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

[Christopher A. Lee]

On Thu, 07 Feb 2013 16:48:21 +0200, Steve Hayes
<haye...@telkomsa.net> wrote:

>On Thu, 07 Feb 2013 08:25:26 -0600, Mitchell Holman <nomailverizon.net> wrote:
>
>>When Did God Get Into the Wedding Business?
>>Feb. 6, 2013,
>
>In the Garden of Eden

Are you really this stupid or just being a jerk for effect?

>see
>
>http://khanya.wordpress.com/2008/06/18/the-theology-of-christian-marriage/
>and
>http://ondermynende.wordpress.com/2006/09/17/the-state-should-get-out-of-the-marriage-business-2/

Apparently you really are.

[Mitchell Holman]

Steve Hayes <haye...@telkomsa.net> wrote in
news:oaf7h85ne7v6am7qj...@4ax.com:

> On Thu, 07 Feb 2013 08:25:26 -0600, Mitchell Holman
> <nomailverizon.net> wrote:
>
>>When Did God Get Into the Wedding Business?
>>Feb. 6, 2013,
>
> In the Garden of Eden
>

No wedding ceremony that I can find there.

[harry k]

On Feb 7, 6:58 am, Mitchell Holman <nomailverizon.net> wrote:
> Steve Hayes <hayes...@telkomsa.net> wrote innews:oaf7h85ne7v6am7qj...@4ax.com:

>
> > On Thu, 07 Feb 2013 08:25:26 -0600, Mitchell Holman
> > <nomailverizon.net> wrote:
>
> >>When Did God Get Into the Wedding Business?
> >>Feb. 6, 2013,
>
> > In the Garden of Eden
>
>    No wedding ceremony that I can find there.

Not even a hint of a mention of one.

As to the answer to the title. Religion got into the marrieage
business the moment the first shaman realized it was another way to
control the sheep.

Harry K

[duke]

On Thu, 07 Feb 2013 08:25:26 -0600, Mitchell Holman <nomailverizon.net> wrote:

>
>
>
>
>

>When Did God Get Into the Wedding Business?
>Feb. 6, 2013,

>Was marriage originally a legal or a religious institution?

Religious beyond a shadow of a doubt.

>A legal institution, mostly. Marriage developed independently
>in hundreds of human civilizations, so it�s difficult to
>pinpoint history�s first marriage or even the society that
>first conceived of marriage as an institution.

Nope, not a marriage. Just a cave man that likes what he sees. And lo and
behold, he took what he wanted and 9 months later, a little cave man showed up.
Then God told the caveman that he will bless what the caveman likes, and so
begins a relationship pleasing to God.

And so the first wedding ceremony tool place a few million years later in a
formalized fashion..

The dukester, American - American
********************************************
You can't fix stupid.
********************************************

[Steve Hayes]

On Thu, 07 Feb 2013 06:56:44 -0800, Christopher A. Lee
<chrisl...@comcast.net> wrote:

>On Thu, 07 Feb 2013 16:48:21 +0200, Steve Hayes
><haye...@telkomsa.net> wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 07 Feb 2013 08:25:26 -0600, Mitchell Holman <nomailverizon.net> wrote:
>>
>>>When Did God Get Into the Wedding Business?
>>>Feb. 6, 2013,
>>
>>In the Garden of Eden
>
>Are you really this stupid or just being a jerk for effect?

Do you always substitute mindless ad hominems for rational discussion?

[Steve Hayes]

Ah well, that settles the matter -- the wedding business doesn't exist.

[Christopher A. Lee]

On Thu, 07 Feb 2013 20:30:02 +0200, Steve Hayes
<haye...@telkomsa.net> wrote:

>On Thu, 07 Feb 2013 08:58:46 -0600, Mitchell Holman <nomailverizon.net> wrote:
>
>>Steve Hayes <haye...@telkomsa.net> wrote in
>>news:oaf7h85ne7v6am7qj...@4ax.com:
>>
>>> On Thu, 07 Feb 2013 08:25:26 -0600, Mitchell Holman
>>> <nomailverizon.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>>When Did God Get Into the Wedding Business?
>>>>Feb. 6, 2013,
>>>
>>> In the Garden of Eden
>>>
>>
>>
>> No wedding ceremony that I can find there.
>
>
>Ah well, that settles the matter -- the wedding business doesn't exist.

What a fucking moron.

[Jeanne Douglas]

In article <hnr7h8pmphs7a6abo...@4ax.com>,

duke <duckg...@cox.net> wrote:

> On Thu, 07 Feb 2013 08:25:26 -0600, Mitchell Holman <nomailverizon.net>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >When Did God Get Into the Wedding Business?
> >Feb. 6, 2013,
>
> >Was marriage originally a legal or a religious institution?
>
> Religious beyond a shadow of a doubt.
>
> >A legal institution, mostly. Marriage developed independently
> >in hundreds of human civilizations, so it’s difficult to
> >pinpoint history’s first marriage or even the society that
> >first conceived of marriage as an institution.
>
> Nope, not a marriage. Just a cave man that likes what he sees. And lo and
> behold, he took what he wanted and 9 months later, a little cave man showed
> up.
> Then God told the caveman that he will bless what the caveman likes, and so
> begins a relationship pleasing to God.
>
> And so the first wedding ceremony tool place a few million years later in a
> formalized fashion..

Wow. dukie thinks mankind is millions of years old.

--
JD

"Osama Bin Laden is dead and GM is alive."--VP Joseph Biden

[Don Martin]

On Thu, 07 Feb 2013 06:56:44 -0800, Christopher A. Lee

<chrisl...@comcast.net> wrote:

>On Thu, 07 Feb 2013 16:48:21 +0200, Steve Hayes
><haye...@telkomsa.net> wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 07 Feb 2013 08:25:26 -0600, Mitchell Holman <nomailverizon.net> wrote:
>>
>>>When Did God Get Into the Wedding Business?
>>>Feb. 6, 2013,
>>
>>In the Garden of Eden
>
>Are you really this stupid or just being a jerk for effect?

I read somewhere years ago that marriage did not become a sacrament in
the catholic church until the 15th century. That rather lets A&E out.

>>see
>>
>>http://khanya.wordpress.com/2008/06/18/the-theology-of-christian-marriage/
>>and
>>http://ondermynende.wordpress.com/2006/09/17/the-state-should-get-out-of-the-marriage-business-2/
>
>Apparently you really are.

--

aa #2278 Never mind "proof." Where is your evidence?
BAAWA Chief Assistant to the Assistant Chief Heckler
Fidei defensor (Hon. Antipodean)
The Squeeky Wheel: http://home.comcast.net/~drdonmartin/

[Smiler]

I see no evidence of thought from puke. Belief, yes...thought, no.

--
Smiler,

The godless one. a.a.# 2279

All gods are tailored to order. They're made to

exactly fit the prejudices of their believers.

[Christopher A. Lee]

On Thu, 7 Feb 2013 17:54:11 -0800, Pete <d...@kn.app> wrote:

>Slate would never have a clue.
>Regarding contracts an argument would then be made whether written or oral
>and be endless.
>
>As to a marriage before God,

What God?

Where did you demonstrate its real world existence, and its
applicability to everybody?

> started for sure under the Jews. Before that
>there was no law. It also carries over to the believer.
>God

What God?

Where did you demonstrate its real world existence, and its
applicability to everybody?

> allowed divorce under restriction, to the Jews because of the hardness
>of their hearts. Those who divorce today often have the same hardness of
>heart. Sometimes both parties, sometimes one.
>
>The accepted legal divorces is when one or the other commit adultery, and
>if someone came to Christ

What Christ?

Where did you demonstrate its real world existence, and its
applicability to everybody?

> as a believer and the other party could not or
>would not stay married to them then they were free to remarry.

[Christopher A. Lee]

On Thu, 7 Feb 2013 18:34:54 -0800, Pete <d...@kn.app> wrote:

>On Thu, 7 Feb 2013 20:07:14 -0600, L. Raymond wrote:

>
>> Pete wrote:
>>
>>> Slate would never have a clue.
>>> Regarding contracts an argument would then be made whether written or oral
>>> and be endless.
>>>

>>> As to a marriage before God, started for sure under the Jews.
>>
>> Really? You're certain neither the Hindus, Sumerians, Greeks, Roman,
>> Egyptians nor Chinese ever invoked gods at their ceremonies, all of
>> which would have predated or been contemporaneous with Jewish
>> civilization of a few millenia ago? How do you know that "for sure"?
>>
>
>The question was about God, not gods. Most of the gods you speak of
>wouldn't care, they liked free sex, homo sex, animal sex, child sex, so of
>what value would there be for marriage.

Neither does yours, imbecile - figments of the imagination don't.

>>> Before that there was no law.
>>

>> Before what was there no law of what kind for whom where?
>
>No spiritual laws written down regarding God the Father

Idiot.

> , although the
>basics were written in mans hearts, they just did not count for sin.

Idiot.

[Christopher A. Lee]

On Thu, 7 Feb 2013 18:40:50 -0800, Pete <d...@kn.app> wrote:

>There is only one God.

There are thousands, and they're all merely religious belief objects -
including yours.

>> Where did you demonstrate its real world existence, and its
>> applicability to everybody?
>>
>

>It? there is no it? Only a fool says in their heart, there is no God.

The stupid theist insults by proxy, hiding behind his mythology.

Again, where did you demonstrate its existence in the real world
before rudely and stupidly presuming it?

>>> started for sure under the Jews. Before that
>>>there was no law. It also carries over to the believer.
>>>God
>>
>> What God?
>>
>

>There is only one God, and you are not him.

Prove it or keep your bullshit to yourself, imbecile.

>> Where did you demonstrate its real world existence, and its
>> applicability to everybody?
>>
>

>I do not demonstrate any "its". Nor any accountability to "its"

Translation: you can't.

>>> allowed divorce under restriction, to the Jews because of the hardness
>>>of their hearts. Those who divorce today often have the same hardness of
>>>heart. Sometimes both parties, sometimes one.
>>>
>>>The accepted legal divorces is when one or the other commit adultery, and
>>>if someone came to Christ
>>
>> What Christ?
>>
>

>There is only one Messiah.

No, moron. 2,000 years ago Messiah wannabes were a dime a dozen. And
even if there actually were an historical Jesus, he was not the
Messiah - that would have been somebody who freed Judea from Roman
occupation.

>> Where did you demonstrate its real world existence, and its
>> applicability to everybody?
>

>It is not my responsibility to "its" demonstration.

Yes it is, when you beg the question by rudely and stupidly talk about
it outside your religion.

>>> as a believer and the other party could not or
>>>would not stay married to them then they were free to remarry.
>

>However, your freudian slip did suggest, One God. Good show.

Stop lying.

[Christopher A. Lee]

On Thu, 7 Feb 2013 18:47:20 -0800, Pete <d...@kn.app> wrote:

Newsgroups restored.

It is dishonest to trim them without pointing it out.

But we know why you did it.

>Rotfl, name calling already? Arguing from a weak point?

No,liar.

You are rudely and stupidly presuming your religious beliefs including
its hypothetical god apply to everybody else, cross-posting to a
newsgroup where it should be obvious even to you that it is merely a
belief not an actuality.

That's what makes you an idiot.

[Steve Hayes]

On Thu, 7 Feb 2013 07:12:15 -0800 (PST), harry k <tur...@q.com> wrote:

>On Feb 7, 6:58�am, Mitchell Holman <nomailverizon.net> wrote:
>> Steve Hayes <hayes...@telkomsa.net> wrote innews:oaf7h85ne7v6am7qj...@4ax.com:
>>
>> > On Thu, 07 Feb 2013 08:25:26 -0600, Mitchell Holman
>> > <nomailverizon.net> wrote:
>>
>> >>When Did God Get Into the Wedding Business?
>> >>Feb. 6, 2013,
>>
>> > In the Garden of Eden
>>
>> � �No wedding ceremony that I can find there.
>
>Not even a hint of a mention of one.

What are your criteria for a "wedding ceremony"?

Does a wedding need a "ceremony"?

[Mitchell Holman]

Pete <d...@kn.app> wrote in news:mvZQs.87807$uU.3...@newsfe11.iad:

> On Thu, 7 Feb 2013 20:07:14 -0600, L. Raymond wrote:
>
>> Pete wrote:
>>
>>> Slate would never have a clue.
>>> Regarding contracts an argument would then be made whether written
>>> or oral and be endless.
>>>
>>> As to a marriage before God, started for sure under the Jews.
>>
>> Really? You're certain neither the Hindus, Sumerians, Greeks, Roman,
>> Egyptians nor Chinese ever invoked gods at their ceremonies, all of
>> which would have predated or been contemporaneous with Jewish
>> civilization of a few millenia ago? How do you know that "for sure"?
>>
>
> The question was about God, not gods. Most of the gods you speak of
> wouldn't care, they liked free sex, homo sex, animal sex, child sex,
> so of what value would there be for marriage.

Whereas your God just likes.....murder.



GE 6:11-17, 7:11-24 God is unhappy with the wickedness
of man and decides to do something about it. He kills
every living thing on the face of the earth other than
Noah's family.

EX 9:22-25 A plague of hail from the Lord strikes down
everything in the fields of Egypt both man and beast
except in Goshen where the Israelites reside.

EX 12:29 The Lord kills all the first-born in the
land of Egypt. Even the first born animals are killed.

EX 32:27-29 With the Lord's approval, the Israelites
slay 3000 men.

NU 16:27-33 The Lord causes the earth to open and
swallow up the men and their households (including
wives and children) because the men had been rebellious.

NU 16:35 A fire from the Lord consumes 250 men.

NU 16:49 A plague from the Lord kills 14,700 people.

NU 21:6 Fiery serpents, sent by the Lord, kill many
Israelites.

NU 31:17-18 Moses, following the Lord's command, orders
the Israelites to kill all the Midianite male children
and "... every woman who has known man ...." (Note: How
would it be determined which women had known men? One
can only speculate.)

[Uncle Vic]

Jeanne Douglas <hlwd...@NOSPAMgmail.com> wrote in
news:hlwdjsd2-9488A1...@news.giganews.com:

He thinks Noah forged the Flood millions of years ago.

--
Uncle Vic
aa# 2011
The meaning of life is to find your gift.
The purpose of life is to give it away.

Visit my You Tube Channel!
http://www.youtube.com/user/Vicman6311?feature=mhee

[Uncle Vic]

Pete <d...@kn.app> wrote in news:mvZQs.87807$uU.3...@newsfe11.iad:

> On Thu, 7 Feb 2013 20:07:14 -0600, L. Raymond wrote:
>
>> Pete wrote:
>>
>>> Slate would never have a clue.
>>> Regarding contracts an argument would then be made whether written
>>> or oral and be endless.
>>>
>>> As to a marriage before God, started for sure under the Jews.
>>
>> Really? You're certain neither the Hindus, Sumerians, Greeks, Roman,
>> Egyptians nor Chinese ever invoked gods at their ceremonies, all of
>> which would have predated or been contemporaneous with Jewish
>> civilization of a few millenia ago? How do you know that "for sure"?
>>
>
> The question was about God, not gods.

There's a difference?

[Uncle Vic]

Pete <d...@kn.app> wrote in news:WAZQs.83318$532....@newsfe03.iad:

>>
>> What God?
>>
>
> There is only one God, and you are not him.

Which one is The One? I think "Allah" has the most believers, and numbers
seem to be very important to the religious.

>
>> Where did you demonstrate its real world existence, and its
>> applicability to everybody?
>>
>

> I do not demonstrate any "its". Nor any accountability to "its"

You don't demonstrate anything. You merely make a lot of claims.

>
>>> allowed divorce under restriction, to the Jews because of the
>>> hardness
>>>of their hearts. Those who divorce today often have the same hardness
>>>of heart. Sometimes both parties, sometimes one.
>>>
>>>The accepted legal divorces is when one or the other commit adultery,
>>>and if someone came to Christ
>>
>> What Christ?
>>
>

> There is only one Messiah.

Emmanuel? Quezalcoatl? Horus? Krishna? Dyoneseus?

<snip>

[Christopher A. Lee]

On Thu, 07 Feb 2013 21:26:42 -0600, Uncle Vic <so...@noway.com> wrote:

>Pete <d...@kn.app> wrote in news:mvZQs.87807$uU.3...@newsfe11.iad:
>
>> On Thu, 7 Feb 2013 20:07:14 -0600, L. Raymond wrote:
>>
>>> Pete wrote:
>>>
>>>> Slate would never have a clue.
>>>> Regarding contracts an argument would then be made whether written
>>>> or oral and be endless.
>>>>
>>>> As to a marriage before God, started for sure under the Jews.
>>>
>>> Really? You're certain neither the Hindus, Sumerians, Greeks, Roman,
>>> Egyptians nor Chinese ever invoked gods at their ceremonies, all of
>>> which would have predated or been contemporaneous with Jewish
>>> civilization of a few millenia ago? How do you know that "for sure"?
>>>
>>
>> The question was about God, not gods.
>
>There's a difference?

He's one of those idiots who can't grasp that there is a real world
beyond his religion.

[Dakota]

On 2/7/2013 6:52 PM, Smiler wrote:
> On Thu, 07 Feb 2013 14:13:42 -0800, Jeanne Douglas wrote:
>
>> In article <hnr7h8pmphs7a6abo...@4ax.com>,
>> duke <duckg...@cox.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, 07 Feb 2013 08:25:26 -0600, Mitchell Holman <nomailverizon.net>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> When Did God Get Into the Wedding Business? Feb. 6, 2013,
>>>
>>>> Was marriage originally a legal or a religious institution?
>>>
>>> Religious beyond a shadow of a doubt.
>>>
>>>> A legal institution, mostly. Marriage developed independently in

>>>> hundreds of human civilizations, so it�s difficult to pinpoint
>>>> history�s first marriage or even the society that first conceived of

>>>> marriage as an institution.
>>>
>>> Nope, not a marriage. Just a cave man that likes what he sees. And lo
>>> and behold, he took what he wanted and 9 months later, a little cave man
>>> showed up.
>>> Then God told the caveman that he will bless what the caveman likes, and
>>> so begins a relationship pleasing to God.
>>>
>>> And so the first wedding ceremony tool place a few million years later
>>> in a formalized fashion..
>>
>> Wow. dukie thinks mankind is millions of years old.
>
> I see no evidence of thought from puke. Belief, yes...thought, no.
>

According to the Catholics, there's god the father, god the son, and
god the holy ghost. No women god unless the ghost is female. Marriage
would be a mystery to those three.

[Jeanne Douglas]

In article <WAZQs.83318$532....@newsfe03.iad>, Pete <d...@kn.app>
wrote:

> There is only one God.
>

> > Where did you demonstrate its real world existence, and its
> > applicability to everybody?
> >
>

> It? there is no it? Only a fool says in their heart, there is no God.

Then it's a good thing that Christopher didn't say that, now isn't it.

> >> started for sure under the Jews.
> >> Before that
> >>there was no law. It also carries over to the believer.
> >>God
> >
> > What God?
> >
>

> There is only one God, and you are not him.

Where's your evidence?

> > Where did you demonstrate its real world existence, and its
> > applicability to everybody?
> >
>

> I do not demonstrate any "its". Nor any accountability to "its"
>

> >> allowed divorce under restriction, to the Jews because of the
> >> hardness
> >>of their hearts. Those who divorce today often have the same hardness of
> >>heart. Sometimes both parties, sometimes one.
> >>
> >>The accepted legal divorces is when one or the other commit adultery, and
> >>if someone came to Christ
> >
> > What Christ?
> >
>

> There is only one Messiah.

Where's your evidence that there is even one messiah?

> > Where did you demonstrate its real world existence, and its
> > applicability to everybody?
> >
>

> It is not my responsibility to "its" demonstration.
>

> >> as a believer and the other party
> >> could not or
> >>would not stay married to them then they were free to remarry.
>

> However, your freudian slip did suggest, One God. Good show.

Where's your evidence?

[Jeanne Douglas]

In article <XnsA160C4F6E81...@216.196.121.131>,

Uncle Vic <so...@noway.com> wrote:

> Jeanne Douglas <hlwd...@NOSPAMgmail.com> wrote in
> news:hlwdjsd2-9488A1...@news.giganews.com:
>
> > In article <hnr7h8pmphs7a6abo...@4ax.com>,
> > duke <duckg...@cox.net> wrote:
> >
> >> On Thu, 07 Feb 2013 08:25:26 -0600, Mitchell Holman
> >> <nomailverizon.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >When Did God Get Into the Wedding Business?
> >> >Feb. 6, 2013,
> >>
> >> >Was marriage originally a legal or a religious institution?
> >>
> >> Religious beyond a shadow of a doubt.
> >>
> >> >A legal institution, mostly. Marriage developed independently
> >> >in hundreds of human civilizations, so it’s difficult to
> >> >pinpoint history’s first marriage or even the society that
> >> >first conceived of marriage as an institution.
> >>
> >> Nope, not a marriage. Just a cave man that likes what he sees. And
> >> lo and behold, he took what he wanted and 9 months later, a little
> >> cave man showed up.
> >> Then God told the caveman that he will bless what the caveman likes,
> >> and so begins a relationship pleasing to God.
> >>
> >> And so the first wedding ceremony tool place a few million years
> >> later in a formalized fashion..
> >
> > Wow. dukie thinks mankind is millions of years old.
> >
>
> He thinks Noah forged the Flood millions of years ago.

Actually, he thinks it was billions of years ago.

[Y]

On Feb 8, 3:07 pm, Dakota <ma...@NOSPAMmail.com> wrote:
> On 2/7/2013 6:52 PM, Smiler wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Thu, 07 Feb 2013 14:13:42 -0800, Jeanne Douglas wrote:
>

> >> In article <hnr7h8pmphs7a6abonuv5i08adf289i...@4ax.com>,

> >>   duke <duckgumb...@cox.net> wrote:
>
> >>> On Thu, 07 Feb 2013 08:25:26 -0600, Mitchell Holman <nomailverizon.net>
> >>> wrote:
>
> >>>> When Did God Get Into the Wedding Business? Feb. 6, 2013,
>
> >>>> Was marriage originally a legal or a religious institution?
>
> >>> Religious beyond a shadow of a doubt.
>
> >>>> A legal institution, mostly. Marriage developed independently in

> >>>> hundreds of human civilizations, so it’s difficult to pinpoint

> >>>> history’s first marriage or even the society that first conceived of

> >>>> marriage as an institution.
>
> >>> Nope, not a marriage.  Just a cave man that likes what he sees.  And lo
> >>> and behold, he took what he wanted and 9 months later, a little cave man
> >>> showed up.
> >>> Then God told the caveman that he will bless what the caveman likes, and
> >>> so begins a relationship pleasing to God.
>
> >>> And so the first wedding ceremony tool place a few million years later
> >>> in a formalized fashion..
>
> >> Wow. dukie thinks mankind is millions of years old.
>
> > I see no evidence of thought from puke. Belief, yes...thought, no.
>
> According to the Catholics, there's god the father, god the son, and
> god the holy ghost. No women god unless the ghost is female. Marriage
> would be a mystery to those three.

The Force cares little about marriage. Marriage is an emergent idea of
the human mind. The human mind is an emergent outcome of the force,
and so the force created these things. This doesn't mean to say that
"the force" prefers marriage. It simply made the brain that is able to
think this idea. The Christian God was created by the force, emergent
from the human mind, and the ability of the human mind to concoct and
write fiction. It is in this fiction that the idea of marriage is
popularized.

The Christian God has a mental illness as chronicled by the Old and
New Testament.

He has a mood disorder, and delusions of grandeur. The Christian God
is not as grand as he thinks, because The force is grander all
powerful and real. The Force cannot have a mental illness, because it
has no mind. The force is plain and simple force, which shapes and
controls the outcome of everything.

-y

[SkyEyes]

On Feb 7, 7:48 am, Steve Hayes <hayes...@telkomsa.net> wrote:
> On Thu, 07 Feb 2013 08:25:26 -0600, Mitchell Holman <nomailverizon.net> wrote:
> >When Did God Get Into the Wedding Business?
> >Feb. 6, 2013,
>

> In the Garden of Eden
>

> see
>
> http://khanya.wordpress.com/2008/06/18/the-theology-of-christian-marr...
> andhttp://ondermynende.wordpress.com/2006/09/17/the-state-should-get-out...

The Garden of Eden is *mythology*, and all the links in the world
won't change that.

Brenda Nelson, A.A.#34 and A+ atheist
BAAWA Knight of the Golden Litterbox
EAC Professor of Feline Thermometrics and Cat-Herding
skyeyes nine at cox dot net OR
skyeyes nine at yahoo dot com

[harry k]

On Feb 7, 7:15 pm, Steve Hayes <hayes...@telkomsa.net> wrote:

Do you _really_ need an explanation of what a "wedding ceremony" is?

Harry K

[harry k]

On Feb 7, 10:29 am, Christopher A. Lee <chrislee95...@comcast.net>
wrote:

> On Thu, 07 Feb 2013 20:30:02 +0200, Steve Hayes
>
>
>
>
>
> <hayes...@telkomsa.net> wrote:
> >On Thu, 07 Feb 2013 08:58:46 -0600, Mitchell Holman <nomailverizon.net> wrote:
>

> >>Steve Hayes <hayes...@telkomsa.net> wrote in

> >>news:oaf7h85ne7v6am7qj...@4ax.com:
>
> >>> On Thu, 07 Feb 2013 08:25:26 -0600, Mitchell Holman
> >>> <nomailverizon.net> wrote:
>
> >>>>When Did God Get Into the Wedding Business?
> >>>>Feb. 6, 2013,
>
> >>> In the Garden of Eden
>
> >>   No wedding ceremony that I can find there.
>
> >Ah well, that settles the matter -- the wedding business doesn't exist.
>
> What a fucking moron.

From his responses I don't think he quite measures up to "moron"
criteria.

Harry K

[Steve Hayes]

No, but I think you do.

[Steve Hayes]

On Thu, 7 Feb 2013 21:37:38 -0800 (PST), SkyEyes <skye...@cox.net> wrote:

>On Feb 7, 7:48�am, Steve Hayes <hayes...@telkomsa.net> wrote:
>> On Thu, 07 Feb 2013 08:25:26 -0600, Mitchell Holman <nomailverizon.net> wrote:
>> >When Did God Get Into the Wedding Business?
>> >Feb. 6, 2013,
>>
>> In the Garden of Eden
>>
>> see
>>
>> http://khanya.wordpress.com/2008/06/18/the-theology-of-christian-marr...
>> andhttp://ondermynende.wordpress.com/2006/09/17/the-state-should-get-out...
>
>The Garden of Eden is *mythology*, and all the links in the world
>won't change that.

The nature of myth.
Source: Berdyaev 1948:70.
Myth is a reality immeasurably greater than concept. It is
high time that we stopped identifying myth with invention,
with the illusions of primitive mentality, and with anything,
in fact, which is essentially opposed to reality... The
creation of myths among peoples denotes a real spiritual life,
more real indeed than that of abstract concepts and rational
thought. Myth is always concrete and expresses life better
than abstract thought can do; its nature is bound up with that
of symbol. Myth is the concrete recital of events and original
phenomena of the spiritual life symbolized in the natural
world, which has engraved itself on the language memory and
creative energy of the people... it brings two worlds together
symbolically.

But for the purpose of this topic it doesn't matter whether it is mythology or
not.

[Uncle Vic]

Pete <d...@kn.app> wrote in news:7L1Rs.121638$EO2....@newsfe04.iad:

> On Thu, 07 Feb 2013 21:26:42 -0600, Uncle Vic wrote:
>
>> Pete <d...@kn.app> wrote in news:mvZQs.87807$uU.3...@newsfe11.iad:
>>
>>> On Thu, 7 Feb 2013 20:07:14 -0600, L. Raymond wrote:
>>>
>>>> Pete wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Slate would never have a clue.
>>>>> Regarding contracts an argument would then be made whether written
>>>>> or oral and be endless.
>>>>>
>>>>> As to a marriage before God, started for sure under the Jews.
>>>>
>>>> Really? You're certain neither the Hindus, Sumerians, Greeks, Roman,
>>>> Egyptians nor Chinese ever invoked gods at their ceremonies, all of
>>>> which would have predated or been contemporaneous with Jewish
>>>> civilization of a few millenia ago? How do you know that "for sure"?
>>>>
>>>
>>> The question was about God, not gods.
>>
>> There's a difference?
>

> That is obvious.
>
>

Only to another believer. There's the same and as much evidence available
for your god as any other. A lot of the myths are strikingly similar, too.

[Steve Hayes]

On Thu, 7 Feb 2013 23:23:16 -0800, Pete <d...@kn.app> wrote:

>And.....forever you shall roast in the Lake of fire and brimstone made for
>the devil and his angels unless you repent. God is a Just God.

Is that a description of marital bliss then?

[Steve Hayes]

On Fri, 08 Feb 2013 01:45:31 -0600, Uncle Vic <so...@noway.com> wrote:

>Pete <d...@kn.app> wrote in news:7L1Rs.121638$EO2....@newsfe04.iad:
>
>> On Thu, 07 Feb 2013 21:26:42 -0600, Uncle Vic wrote:
>>
>>> Pete <d...@kn.app> wrote in news:mvZQs.87807$uU.3...@newsfe11.iad:
>>>
>>>> On Thu, 7 Feb 2013 20:07:14 -0600, L. Raymond wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Pete wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Slate would never have a clue.
>>>>>> Regarding contracts an argument would then be made whether written
>>>>>> or oral and be endless.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As to a marriage before God, started for sure under the Jews.
>>>>>
>>>>> Really? You're certain neither the Hindus, Sumerians, Greeks, Roman,
>>>>> Egyptians nor Chinese ever invoked gods at their ceremonies, all of
>>>>> which would have predated or been contemporaneous with Jewish
>>>>> civilization of a few millenia ago? How do you know that "for sure"?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The question was about God, not gods.
>>>
>>> There's a difference?
>>
>> That is obvious.
>>
>>
>
>Only to another believer. There's the same and as much evidence available
>for your god as any other. A lot of the myths are strikingly similar, too.

Including marriage. It features in a lot of myths, and is itself a myth.

[Steve Hayes]

On Thu, 7 Feb 2013 23:18:49 -0800, Pete <d...@kn.app> wrote:

>On Thu, 07 Feb 2013 18:54:04 -0800, Christopher A. Lee wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 7 Feb 2013 18:47:20 -0800, Pete <d...@kn.app> wrote:
>>
>> Newsgroups restored.
>>
>> It is dishonest to trim them without pointing it out.
>>
>

>You would never have known except for your reader.

>> But we know why you did it.
>

>Someone from your froup asked that it be done.

Yup, and I've acceded to that request.

[Uncle Vic]

Y <yana...@hotmail.com> wrote in news:c4a94654-2b7f-4a7e-a893-72c37de11d44
@h17g2000yqe.googlegroups.com:

> The Christian God has a mental illness as chronicled by the Old and
> New Testament.

What you have is far worse. You apparently exist.

[Jeanne Douglas]

In article <7L1Rs.121638$EO2....@newsfe04.iad>, Pete <d...@kn.app>
wrote:

> On Thu, 07 Feb 2013 21:26:42 -0600, Uncle Vic wrote:
>

> > Pete <d...@kn.app> wrote in news:mvZQs.87807$uU.3...@newsfe11.iad:
> >
> >> On Thu, 7 Feb 2013 20:07:14 -0600, L. Raymond wrote:
> >>
> >>> Pete wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Slate would never have a clue.
> >>>> Regarding contracts an argument would then be made whether written
> >>>> or oral and be endless.
> >>>>
> >>>> As to a marriage before God, started for sure under the Jews.
> >>>
> >>> Really? You're certain neither the Hindus, Sumerians, Greeks, Roman,
> >>> Egyptians nor Chinese ever invoked gods at their ceremonies, all of
> >>> which would have predated or been contemporaneous with Jewish
> >>> civilization of a few millenia ago? How do you know that "for sure"?
> >>>
> >>
> >> The question was about God, not gods.
> >
> > There's a difference?
>

> That is obvious.

Not really. Since there's no evidence for any of them.

[Jeanne Douglas]

In article <HJ1Rs.9910$Sq4....@newsfe14.iad>, Pete <d...@kn.app> wrote:

> On Thu, 07 Feb 2013 21:18:41 -0600, Mitchell Holman wrote:
>

> And.....forever you shall roast in the Lake of fire and brimstone made for
> the devil and his angels unless you repent. God is a Just God.
>

> And you will notice that you said he killed, not murdered.


Why should we believe you?

[walksalone]

Pete <d...@kn.app> wrote in news:mvZQs.87807$uU.3...@newsfe11.iad:

> On Thu, 7 Feb 2013 20:07:14 -0600, L. Raymond wrote:
>
>> Pete wrote:
>>
>>> Slate would never have a clue.
>>> Regarding contracts an argument would then be made whether written
>>> or oral and be endless.
>>>
>>> As to a marriage before God, started for sure under the Jews.
>>
>> Really? You're certain neither the Hindus, Sumerians, Greeks, Roman,
>> Egyptians nor Chinese ever invoked gods at their ceremonies, all of
>> which would have predated or been contemporaneous with Jewish
>> civilization of a few millenia ago? How do you know that "for sure"?
>>
>
> The question was about God, not gods. Most of the gods you speak of

Oh shit oh dear, another one.
Pete, unless you can show reason to accept that fractured fairytale as
being anything for others to take serious, then gods it is. You see,
there is no evidence for them either. But then, you can't accept that,
just as you can't accept that you are an atheist. The difference between
you & the "real atheists" out there, they include your gods in the no
show list.
Not to mention that many of those gods are concerned with family, &
children. Unlike your god that used them for it's killing machines,
according to the Judaic myth.
Capitilizing Glod does not make it a proper noun, let alone name, in
Inuit, or English. You will have to do better.
Try this.
Define your god in terms that make sense to a thirteen year old, or if
you feel lucky, an eight year old. One that has not been exposed to the
cancer.
Then return & rephrase the question to something like, I dunno,
When did my god get into the wedding business?
Did ypou notice in the above sentence, only the first word is
capitalized. That's standard for written English.
According to the various churches that practice your frctured fairy tale,
it alwas was in the racket. According to recorded history, when they
could make money off it.

> wouldn't care, they liked free sex, homo sex, animal sex, child sex,

But they would, or at least those concerned with family & children would.
But haveing willingly excluded theology, the study of gods, from your
education, you can't accept that. Your problem, no one elses. Atheist
or theist.
Not all of the gods of humanity were as self centered as the revealed
gods of the desert.

> so of what value would there be for marriage.

Same as today, when it was wanted. Beyond that, political ties, such as
binding forgien kings to a mutual treaty. Property rights &
responsibilities, see the Code of Hammurabi for more details.
IOW, you have not done any researh into this, & you want atheists, that
don't hold with the villans of your fractured fairy tale, to accept it
exists. & that based on your personal desire. No thanks, not
interested.
Side note, the code of Hammurabi, it predates the revealed gods of the
desert, all of them.

>>> Before that there was no law.
>>

>> Before what was there no law of what kind for whom where?
>
> No spiritual laws written down regarding God the Father, although the
> basics were written in mans hearts, they just did not count for sin.

Of course not, that god, �l, was so well known, that people did not have
to beg it to tell them what it wanted them to do. & just for you,
society, which includes humanty, not just the great apes & the animal
kingdom, went downhill according to some.

Considering the newsgroup you are posting from, the above will elude you,
for you have no choice in the matter. Victims of your type rarely do,
though some recover.
Even so, by posting to the atheist nerwsgroup, you have given others
permission to examione your claims, & take appropriate action to laugh at
you, sympathize with you, or be ignored like the average droll in the
athest newgroups. The choice is yours, & I suspect laughter will be the
end result. That in spite of the fact that theists that don't
prostyleize are welcome here. & that is a very braodly defined social
gaff.

[1]

walksalone who suspects none of the above will appeal to Pete, & that it
will continue to whine like a new puppy that was locked out of the house
because it is to young to housetrain.

DISABUSE, v.t. To present your neighbor with another and
better error than the one which he has deemed it advantageous
to embrace.
Devils dictionary

[walksalone]

Pete <d...@kn.app> wrote in news:HJ1Rs.9910$Sq4....@newsfe14.iad:

> On Thu, 07 Feb 2013 21:18:41 -0600, Mitchell Holman wrote:
>

>> Pete <d...@kn.app> wrote in news:mvZQs.87807$uU.3...@newsfe11.iad:
>>
>>> On Thu, 7 Feb 2013 20:07:14 -0600, L. Raymond wrote:

Warning to aa regulars, xian history included, & boy is it long.

snip

>> NU 21:6 Fiery serpents, sent by the Lord, kill many
>> Israelites.
>>
>> NU 31:17-18 Moses, following the Lord's command, orders
>> the Israelites to kill all the Midianite male children
>> and "... every woman who has known man ...." (Note: How
>> would it be determined which women had known men? One
>> can only speculate.)
>
> And.....forever you shall roast in the Lake of fire and brimstone made
> for the devil and his angels unless you repent. God is a Just God.
>
> And you will notice that you said he killed, not murdered.

Which, when I was a child & learning about the xian myth, was a big no
no. But then, the apologetics got hold of it & reinterpolated it to make
it more palatable to true believers that had a problem with wars & such.
They rewrote it to thou shall not murder, a new get out of hell card that
was much needed considering the wars of humanity, some of which were &
probably still are, religious in nature.

[2]

walksalone who has to admit, apologetics can change their inerrent word
of god faster than he can change socks, The difference being, my
changeing socks does not harm others, or can it be used as a cause to
the detriment of others.

How does that song go, oh yeah, something like this

Go ahead & hate your neighbor
Go ahead & cheat a friend
Do it in the name of heaven
All will be forgiven in the end.

Murder defined:
Noun: murder
1. Unlawful premeditated killing of a human being by a human being

Verb: murder
1. Kill intentionally and with premeditation
2. Alter so as to make unrecognizable

[WordWeb.info]

murder 'm?:d? ? noun. Also (now arch. & dial.) murther 'm?:�?. OE.
1 (An instance of) the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being
by another, (a) criminal homicide with malice aforethought. OE.
b (An instance of) non-criminal homicide of a particularly reprehensible
kind; fig. (a) mortal sin, (a) great wickedness. l15.
A. Christie If I'd committed a murder, I wouldn't go�and give myself up.
USA Today He was acquitted of attempted murder. Daily Telegraph The
detective who solves a murder by deducing the series of events that led
to the crime. Proverb: Murder will out. personified: Shelley I met Murder
on the way�He had a mask like Castlereagh.
2� Terrible slaughter, destruction of life. ME�l16.
3 As interjection. Expr. the fear that oneself or another is in danger of
murder; joc. expr. shock, dismay, etc. lME.
R. Crompton Police! Help! Murder! Robbers!
4 (An instance of) destruction or spoliation tantamount to murder;
something extremely unpleasant or undesirable to experience. Freq.
hyperbol. m19.
b Something or someone excellent or marvellous. US slang. m20.
A. J. Lerner She should be taken out and hung For the cold-blooded murder
of the English tongue! Alan Ross An old hip injury�Not so bad when I'm
just walking�but murder climbing stairs.b M. Shulman A Benny Goodman
record started to play. �Oh, B.G.!� cried Noblesse��Man, he's murder,
Jack.�
5 A game for a number of participants, involving a mock murder hunt in
which one player in the role of detective has to discover the identity of
another player taking the role of murderer. m20.
Phrases:
blue murder: see blue adjective.
first-degree murder, second-degree murder: see degree noun.
get away with murder: see get verb.
judicial murder: see judicial adjective.
Comb.:
murder bag: containing equipment for a detailed examination at the scene
of a murder;
murder book, murder file: for recording details of a police investigation
of a murder;
murder game = sense 5 above;
murder inquiry, murder investigation a police investigation of a murder;
murder log: recording details of a police investigation of a murder;
murdermonger
a a person who commits murder as a profession;
b a writer of murder stories;
murder mystery
a a mysterious murder;
b a novel, play, etc., about a murder in which the murderer's identity is
concealed until the denouement;
murder one, murder two US colloq. first-degree (or second-degree) murder;
murder room a room used as a centre for directing a police investigation
into a murder;
murder squad a division of a police force appointed to investigate
murders.
murderish adjective (rare) murderous m16.
ORIGIN: Old English mor?or = Gothic maur?r, from Germanic from Indo-
European base also of Old English, Old Saxon mor?, Old Norse mor�, Old &
mod. High German mord, Dutch moord, reinforced in Middle English by Old
French murdre (mod. meurtre), from Germanic.
murder 'm?:d? ? verb. Also (now arch. & dial.) murther 'm?:�?. OE.
I verb trans.
1 Kill (a human being) unlawfully, esp. wickedly or inhumanly; spec. kill
(a human being) with a premeditated motive, kill with malice
aforethought. OE.
b refl. Commit suicide. arch. lME.
I. McEwan He was going to find his daughter and murder her abductor.
2 Put an end to or destroy in an act tantamount to murder (chiefly
hyperbol.); spoil by bad execution, representation, etc. ME.
G. Greene A really dreadful woman singer murders the�charm of �You're the
Top�. D. Caute In the Roundhouse�they now murder language and with it
reason. M. Gee You�ate red kidney beans and raw garlic while a pianist
murdered Gershwin.
3 Slaughter in a terrible manner, massacre. lME.
Tennyson They turn on the pursuer�They murder all that follow. J.
Steinbeck Killer whales attacked the sea-lions�and murdered a great
number of them.
4 Consume or spend (time) unprofitably. arch. e18.
5 Conclusively defeat (an opponent etc.), esp. at a game or sport. slang.
m20.
Observer If the passing had got much worse, a team of corporals'
grandmothers would have murdered them.
6 Consume (food or drink) greedily or with relish. colloq. m20.
L. R. Banks Hey, I could murder an ice cream.
II verb intrans.
7 Perform the act of murder; commit murder. m16.
J. Hyde These men will fight, lie, rob, murder for Mormonism if
commanded. A. Storr A measure of sympathy is generally extended to�the
lover who murders from jealousy.
�murdering piece = murderer 2.
murderable adjective able to be murdered; provoking or inviting murder:
e20.
murde'ree noun
a a person who is murdered;
b a person who provokes or invites murder:
m19.
murderess noun a female murderer lME.
ORIGIN: Old English a-, for-, of)myr?rian = Old High German murdran,
Gothic maur?rjan, from Germanic; superseded in Middle English by a new
formation on the noun.

OED

Ancient Pagans
As soon as Christianity was legal (315), more and more pagan temples were
destroyed by Christian mob. Pagan priests were killed.
Between 315 and 6th century thousands of pagan believers were slain.
Examples of destroyed Temples: the Sanctuary of Aesculap in Aegaea, the
Temple of Aphrodite in Golgatha, Aphaka in Lebanon, the Heliopolis.
Christian priests such as Mark of Arethusa or Cyrill of Heliopolis were
famous as "temple destroyer." [DA468]
Pagan services became punishable by death in 356. [DA468]
Christian Emperor Theodosius (408-450) even had children executed,
because they had been playing with remains of pagan statues. [DA469]
According to Christian chroniclers he "followed meticulously all
Christian teachings..."
In 6th century pagans were declared void of all rights.
In the early fourth century the philosopher Sopatros was executed on
demand of Christian authorities. [DA466]
The world famous female philosopher Hypatia of Alexandria was torn to
pieces with glass fragments by a hysterical Christian mob led by a
Christian minister named Peter, in a church, in 415.
[DO19-25]
Mission
Emperor Karl (Charlemagne) in 782 had 4500 Saxons, unwilling to convert
to Christianity, beheaded. [DO30]
Peasants of Steding (Germany) unwilling to pay suffocating church taxes:
between 5,000 and 11,000 men, women and children slain 5/27/1234 near
Altenesch/Germany. [WW223]
Battle of Belgrad 1456: 80,000 Turks slaughtered. [DO235]
15th century Poland: 1019 churches and 17987 villages plundered by
Knights of the Order. Victims unknown. [DO30]
16th and 17th century Ireland. English troops "pacified and civilized"
Ireland, where only Gaelic "wild Irish", "unreasonable beasts lived
without any knowledge of God or good manners, in common of their goods,
cattle, women, children and every other thing." One of the more
successful soldiers, a certain Humphrey Gilbert, half-brother of Sir
Walter Raleigh, ordered that "the heddes of all those (of what sort
soever thei were) which were killed in the daie, should be cutte off from
their bodies... and should bee laied on the ground by eche side of the
waie", which effort to civilize the Irish indeed caused "greate terrour
to the people when thei sawe the heddes of their dedde fathers, brothers,
children, kinsfolke, and freinds on the grounde".
Tens of thousands of Gaelic Irish fell victim to the carnage. [SH99, 225]
Crusades (1095-1291)
First Crusade: 1095 on command of pope Urban II. [WW11-41]
Semlin/Hungary 6/24/96 thousands slain. Wieselburg/Hungary 6/12/96
thousands. [WW23]
9/9/96-9/26/96 Nikaia, Xerigordon (then turkish), thousands respectively.
[WW25-27]
Until Jan 1098 a total of 40 capital cities and 200 castles conquered
(number of slain unknown) [WW30]
after 6/3/98 Antiochia (then turkish) conquered, between 10,000 and
60,000 slain. 6/28/98 100,000 Turks (incl. women & children) killed.
[WW32-35]
Here the Christians "did no other harm to the women found in [the
enemy's] tents - save that they ran their lances through their bellies,"
according to Christian chronicler Fulcher of Chartres. [EC60]
Marra (Maraat an-numan) 12/11/98 thousands killed. Because of the
subsequent famine "the already stinking corpses of the enemies were eaten
by the Christians" said chronicler Albert Aquensis. [WW36]
Jerusalem conquered 7/15/1099 more than 60,000 victims (jewish, muslim,
men, women, children). [WW37-40]

(In the words of one witness: "there [in front of Solomon's temple] was
such a carnage that our people were wading ankle-deep in the blood of our
foes", and after that "happily and crying for joy our people marched to
our Saviour's tomb, to honour it and to pay off our debt of gratitude")

The Archbishop of Tyre, eye-witness, wrote: "It was impossible to look
upon the vast numbers of the slain without horror; everywhere lay
fragments of human bodies, and the very ground was covered with the blood
of the slain. It was not alone the spectacle of headless bodies and
mutilated limbs strewn in all directions that roused the horror of all
who looked upon them. Still more dreadful was it to gaze upon the victors
themselves, dripping with blood from head to foot, an ominous sight which
brought terror to all who met them. It is reported that within the Temple
enclosure alone about ten thousand infidels perished." [TG79]
Christian chronicler Eckehard of Aura noted that "even the following
summer in all of palestine the air was polluted by the stench of
decomposition". One million victims of the first crusade alone. [WW41]
Battle of Askalon, 8/12/1099. 200,000 heathens slaughtered "in the name
of Our Lord Jesus Christ". [WW45]
Fourth crusade: 4/12/1204 Constantinople sacked, number of victims
unknown, numerous thousands, many of them Christian. [WW141-148]
Rest of Crusades in less detail: until the fall of Akkon 1291 probably 20
million victims (in the Holy land and Arab/Turkish areas alone). [WW224]

Note: All figures according to contemporary (Christian) chroniclers.
Heretics
Already in 385 C.E. the first Christians, the Spanish Priscillianus and
six followers, were beheaded for heresy in Trier/Germany [DO26]
Manichaean heresy: a crypto-Christian sect decent enough to practice
birth control (and thus not as irresponsible as faithful Catholics) was
exterminated in huge campaigns all over the Roman empire between 372 C.E.
and 444 C.E. Numerous thousands of victims. [NC]
Albigensians: the first Crusade intended to slay other Christians. [DO29]
The Albigensians (cathars = Christians allegedly that have all rarely
sucked) viewed themselves as good Christians, but would not accept roman
Catholic rule, and taxes, and prohibition of birth control. [NC]
Begin of violence: on command of pope Innocent III (greatest single pre-
nazi mass murderer) in 1209. Bezirs (today France) 7/22/1209 destroyed,
all the inhabitants were slaughtered. Victims (including Catholics
refusing to turn over their heretic neighbours and friends) 20,000-
70,000. [WW179-181]
Carcassonne 8/15/1209, thousands slain. Other cities followed. [WW181]
subsequent 20 years of war until nearly all Cathars (probably half the
population of the Languedoc, today southern France) were exterminated.
[WW183]
After the war ended (1229) the Inquisition was founded 1232 to search and
destroy surviving/hiding heretics. Last Cathars burned at the stake 1324.
[WW183]
Estimated one million victims (cathar heresy alone), [WW183]
Other heresies: Waldensians, Paulikians, Runcarians, Josephites, and many
others. Most of these sects exterminated, (I believe some Waldensians
live today, yet they had to endure 600 years of persecution) I estimate
at least hundred thousand victims (including the Spanish inquisition but
excluding victims in the New World).
Spanish Inquisitor Torquemada alone allegedly responsible for 10,220
burnings. [DO28]
John Huss, a critic of papal infallibility and indulgences, was burned at
the stake in 1415. [LI475-522]
University professor B.Hubmaier burned at the stake 1538 in Vienna.
[DO59]
Giordano Bruno, Dominican monk, after having been incarcerated for seven
years, was burned at the stake for heresy on the Campo dei Fiori (Rome)
on 2/17/1600.

Witches
from the beginning of Christianity to 1484 probably more than several
thousand.
in the era of witch hunting (1484-1750) according to modern scholars
several hundred thousand (about 80% female) burned at the stake or
hanged. [WV]
incomplete list of documented cases:
The Burning of Witches - A Chronicle of the Burning Times
Religious Wars
15th century: Crusades against Hussites, thousands slain. [DO30]
1538 pope Paul III declared Crusade against apostate England and all
English as slaves of Church (fortunately had not power to go into
action). [DO31]
1568 Spanish Inquisition Tribunal ordered extermination of 3 million
rebels in (then Spanish) Netherlands. Thousands were actually slain.
[DO31]
1572 In France about 20,000 Huguenots were killed on command of pope Pius
V. Until 17th century 200,000 flee. [DO31]
17th century: Catholics slay Gaspard de Coligny, a Protestant leader.
After murdering him, the Catholic mob mutilated his body, "cutting off
his head, his hands, and his genitals... and then dumped him into the
river [...but] then, deciding that it was not worthy of being food for
the fish, they hauled it out again [... and] dragged what was left ... to
the gallows of Montfaulcon, 'to be meat and carrion for maggots and
crows'." [SH191]
17th century: Catholics sack the city of Magdeburg/Germany: roughly
30,000 Protestants were slain. "In a single church fifty women were found
beheaded," reported poet Friedrich Schiller, "and infants still sucking
the breasts of their lifeless mothers." [SH191]
17th century 30 years' war (Catholic vs. Protestant): at least 40% of
population decimated, mostly in Germany. [DO31-32]
Jews
Already in the 4th and 5th centuries synagogues were burned by
Christians. Number of Jews slain unknown.
In the middle of the fourth century the first synagogue was destroyed on
command of bishop Innocentius of Dertona in Northern Italy. The first
synagogue known to have been burned down was near the river Euphrat, on
command of the bishop of Kallinikon in the year 388. [DA450]
17. Council of Toledo 694: Jews were enslaved, their property
confiscated, and their children forcibly baptized. [DA454]
The Bishop of Limoges (France) in 1010 had the cities' Jews, who would
not convert to Christianity, expelled or killed. [DA453]
First Crusade: Thousands of Jews slaughtered 1096, maybe 12.000 total.
Places: Worms 5/18/1096, Mainz 5/27/1096 (1100 persons), Cologne, Neuss,
Altenahr, Wevelinghoven, Xanten, Moers, Dortmund, Kerpen, Trier, Metz,
Regensburg, Prag and others (All locations Germany except Metz/France,
Prag/Czech) [EJ]
Second Crusade: 1147. Several hundred Jews were slain in Ham, Sully,
Carentan, and Rameru (all locations in France). [WW57]
Third Crusade: English Jewish communities sacked 1189/90. [DO40]
Fulda/Germany 1235: 34 Jewish men and women slain. [DO41]
1257, 1267: Jewish communities of London, Canterbury, Northampton,
Lincoln, Cambridge, and others exterminated. [DO41]
1290 in Bohemian (Poland) allegedly 10,000 Jews killed. [DO41]
1337 Starting in Deggendorf/Germany a Jew-killing craze reaches 51 towns
in Bavaria, Austria, Poland. [DO41]
1348 All Jews of Basel/Switzerland and Strasbourg/France (two thousand)
burned. [DO41]
1349 In more than 350 towns in Germany all Jews murdered, mostly burned
alive (in this one year more Jews were killed than Christians in 200
years of ancient Roman persecution of Christians). [DO42]
1389 In Prag 3,000 Jews were slaughtered. [DO42]
1391 Seville's Jews killed (Archbishop Martinez leading). 4,000 were
slain, 25,000 sold as slaves. [DA454] Their identification was made easy
by the brightly colored "badges of shame" that all jews above the age of
ten had been forced to wear.
1492: In the year Columbus set sail to conquer a New World, more than
150,000 Jews were expelled from Spain, many died on their way: 6/30/1492.
[MM470-476]
1648 Chmielnitzki massacres: In Poland about 200,000 Jews were slain.
[DO43]


Native Peoples
Beginning with Columbus (a former slave trader and would-be Holy
Crusader) the conquest of the New World began, as usual understood as a
means to propagate Christianity.
Within hours of landfall on the first inhabited island he encountered in
the Caribbean, Columbus seized and carried off six native people who, he
said, "ought to be good servants ... [and] would easily be made
Christians, because it seemed to me that they belonged to no religion."
[SH200]
While Columbus described the Indians as "idolators" and "slaves, as many
as [the Crown] shall order," his pal Michele de Cuneo, Italian nobleman,
referred to the natives as "beasts" because "they eat when they are
hungry," and made love "openly whenever they feel like it." [SH204-205]
On every island he set foot on, Columbus planted a cross, "making the
declarations that are required" - the requerimiento - to claim the
ownership for his Catholic patrons in Spain. And "nobody objected." If
the Indians refused or delayed their acceptance (or understanding), the
requerimiento continued:
I certify to you that, with the help of God, we shall powerfully enter in
your country and shall make war against you ... and shall subject you to
the yoke and obedience of the Church ... and shall do you all mischief
that we can, as to vassals who do not obey and refuse to receive their
lord and resist and contradict him." [SH66]

Likewise in the words of John Winthrop, first governor of Massachusetts
Bay Colony: "justifieinge the undertakeres of the intended Plantation in
New England ... to carry the Gospell into those parts of the world, ...
and to raise a Bulworke against the kingdome of the Ante-Christ." [SH235]
In average two thirds of the native population were killed by colonist-
imported smallpox before violence began. This was a great sign of "the
marvelous goodness and providence of God" to the Christians of course,
e.g. the Governor of the Massachusetts Bay Colony wrote in 1634, as "for
the natives, they are near all dead of the smallpox, so as the Lord hath
cleared our title to what we possess." [SH109,238]
On Hispaniola alone, on Columbus visits, the native population (Arawak),
a rather harmless and happy people living on an island of abundant
natural resources, a literal paradise, soon mourned 50,000 dead. [SH204]
The surviving Indians fell victim to rape, murder, enslavement and
spanish raids.
As one of the culprits wrote: "So many Indians died that they could not
be counted, all through the land the Indians lay dead everywhere. The
stench was very great and pestiferous." [SH69]
The indian chief Hatuey fled with his people but was captured and burned
alive. As "they were tying him to the stake a Franciscan friar urged him
to take Jesus to his heart so that his soul might go to heaven, rather
than descend into hell. Hatuey replied that if heaven was where the
Christians went, he would rather go to hell." [SH70]
What happened to his people was described by an eyewitness:
"The Spaniards found pleasure in inventing all kinds of odd cruelties ...
They built a long gibbet, long enough for the toes to touch the ground to
prevent strangling, and hanged thirteen [natives] at a time in honor of
Christ Our Saviour and the twelve Apostles... then, straw was wrapped
around their torn bodies and they were burned alive." [SH72]
Or, on another occasion:
"The Spaniards cut off the arm of one, the leg or hip of another, and
from some their heads at one stroke, like butchers cutting up beef and
mutton for market. Six hundred, including the cacique, were thus slain
like brute beasts...Vasco [de Balboa] ordered forty of them to be torn to
pieces by dogs." [SH83]
The "island's population of about eight million people at the time of
Columbus's arrival in 1492 already had declined by a third to a half
before the year 1496 was out." Eventually all the island's natives were
exterminated, so the Spaniards were "forced" to import slaves from other
caribbean islands, who soon suffered the same fate. Thus "the Caribbean's
millions of native people [were] thereby effectively liquidated in barely
a quarter of a century". [SH72-73] "In less than the normal lifetime of a
single human being, an entire culture of millions of people, thousands of
years resident in their homeland, had been exterminated." [SH75]
"And then the Spanish turned their attention to the mainland of Mexico
and Central America. The slaughter had barely begun. The exquisite city
of Tenochtitln [Mexico city] was next." [SH75]
Cortez, Pizarro, De Soto and hundreds of other spanish conquistadors
likewise sacked southern and mesoamerican civilizations in the name of
Christ (De Soto also sacked Florida).
"When the 16th century ended, some 200,000 Spaniards had moved to the
Americas. By that time probably more than 60,000,000 natives were dead."
[SH95]


Although none of the settlers would have survived winter without native
help, they soon set out to expel and exterminate the Indians. Warfare
among (north American) Indians was rather harmless, in comparison to
European standards, and was meant to avenge insults rather than conquer
land. In the words of some of the pilgrim fathers: "Their Warres are
farre less bloudy...", so that there usually was "no great slawter of
nether side". Indeed, "they might fight seven yeares and not kill seven
men." What is more, the Indians usually spared women and children.
[SH111]
In the spring of 1612 some English colonists found life among the
(generally friendly and generous) natives attractive enough to leave
Jamestown - "being idell ... did runne away unto the Indyans," - to live
among them (that probably solved a sex problem).
"Governor Thomas Dale had them hunted down and executed: 'Some he
apointed (sic) to be hanged Some burned Some to be broken upon wheles,
others to be staked and some shott to deathe'." [SH105] Of course these
elegant measures were restricted for fellow englishmen: "This was the
treatment for those who wished to act like Indians. For those who had no
choice in the matter, because they were the native people of Virginia"
methods were different: "when an Indian was accused by an Englishman of
stealing a cup and failing to return it, the English response was to
attack the natives in force, burning the entire community" down. [SH105]
On the territory that is now Massachusetts the founding fathers of the
colonies were committing genocide, in what has become known as the
"Peqout War". The killers were New England Puritan Christians, refugees
from persecution in their own home country England.
When however, a dead colonist was found, apparently killed by
Narragansett Indians, the Puritan colonists wanted revenge. Despite the
Indian chief's pledge they attacked.
Somehow they seem to have lost the idea of what they were after, because
when they were greeted by Pequot Indians (long-time foes of the
Narragansetts) the troops nevertheless made war on the Pequots and burned
their villages.
The puritan commander-in-charge John Mason after one massacre wrote: "And
indeed such a dreadful Terror did the Almighty let fall upon their
Spirits, that they would fly from us and run into the very Flames, where
many of them perished ... God was above them, who laughed his Enemies and
the Enemies of his People to Scorn, making them as a fiery Oven ... Thus
did the Lord judge among the Heathen, filling the Place with dead
Bodies": men, women, children. [SH113-114]
So "the Lord was pleased to smite our Enemies in the hinder Parts, and to
give us their land for an inheritance". [SH111].
Because of his readers' assumed knowledge of Deuteronomy, there was no
need for Mason to quote the words that immediately follow:
"Thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth. But thou shalt utterly
destroy them..." (Deut 20)
Mason's comrade Underhill recalled how "great and doleful was the bloody
sight to the view of the young soldiers" yet reassured his readers that
"sometimes the Scripture declareth women and children must perish with
their parents". [SH114]
Other Indians were killed in successful plots of poisoning. The colonists
even had dogs especially trained to kill Indians and to devour children
from their mothers breasts, in the colonists' own words: "blood Hounds to
draw after them, and Mastives to seaze them." (This was inspired by
spanish methods of the time)
In this way they continued until the extermination of the Pequots was
near. [SH107-119]

The surviving handful of Indians "were parceled out to live in servitude.
John Endicott and his pastor wrote to the governor asking for 'a share'
of the captives, specifically 'a young woman or girle and a boy if you
thinke good'." [SH115]

Other tribes were to follow the same path.
Comment the Christian exterminators: "God's Will, which will at last give
us cause to say: How Great is His Goodness! and How Great is his Beauty!"
"Thus doth the Lord Jesus make them to bow before him, and to lick the
Dust!" [TA]
Like today, lying was OK to Christians then. "Peace treaties were signed
with every intention to violate them: when the Indians 'grow secure uppon
(sic) the treatie', advised the Council of State in Virginia, 'we shall
have the better Advantage both to surprise them, & cutt downe theire
Corne'." [SH106]
In 1624 sixty heavily armed Englishmen cut down 800 defenseless Indian
men, women and children. [SH107]
In a single massacre in "King Philip's War" of 1675 and 1676 some "600
Indians were destroyed. A delighted Cotton Mather, revered pastor of the
Second Church in Boston, later referred to the slaughter as a
'barbeque'." [SH115]
To summarize: Before the arrival of the English, the western Abenaki
people in New Hampshire and Vermont had numbered 12,000. Less than half a
century later about 250 remained alive - a destruction rate of 98%. The
Pocumtuck people had numbered more than 18,000, fifty years later they
were down to 920 - 95% destroyed. The Quiripi-Unquachog people had
numbered about 30,000, fifty years later they were down to 1500 - 95%
destroyed. The Massachusetts people had numbered at least 44,000, fifty
years later barely 6000 were alive - 81% destroyed. [SH118] These are
only a few examples of the multitude of tribes living before Christian
colonists set their foot on the New World. All this was before the
smallpox epidemics of 1677 and 1678 had occurred. And the carnage was not
over then.
All the above was only the beginning of the European colonization, it was
before the frontier age actually had begun.
A total of maybe more than 150 million Indians (of both Americas) were
destroyed in the period of 1500 to 1900, as an average two thirds by
smallpox and other epidemics, that leaves some 50 million killed directly
by violence, bad treatment and slavery.

More Glorious events in US history
Reverend Solomon Stoddard, one of New England's most esteemed religious
leaders, in "1703 formally proposed to the Massachusetts Governor that
the colonists be given the financial wherewithal to purchase and train
large packs of dogs 'to hunt Indians as they do bears'." [SH241]
Massacre of Sand Creek, Colorado 11/29/1864. Colonel John Chivington, a
former Methodist minister and still elder in the church ("I long to be
wading in gore") had a Cheyenne village of about 600, mostly women and
children, gunned down despite the chiefs' waving with a white flag: 400-
500 killed.
From an eye-witness account: "There were some thirty or forty squaws
collected in a hole for protection; they sent out a little girl about six
years old with a white flag on a stick; she had not proceeded but a few
steps when she was shot and killed. All the squaws in that hole were
afterwards killed ..." [SH131]
More gory details.
By the 1860s, "in Hawai'i the Reverend Rufus Anderson surveyed the
carnage that by then had reduced those islands' native population by 90
percent or more, and he declined to see it as tragedy; the expected total
die-off of the Hawaiian population was only natural, this missionary
said, somewhat equivalent to 'the amputation of diseased members of the
body'." [SH244]

20th Century Church Atrocities
Catholic extermination camps
Surpisingly few know that Nazi extermination camps in World War II were
by no means the only ones in Europe at the time. In the years 1942-1943
also in Croatia existed numerous extermination camps, run by Catholic
Ustasha under their dictator Ante Paveli, a practising Catholic and
regular visitor to the then pope. There were even concentration camps
exclusively for children!
In these camps - the most notorious was Jasenovac, headed by a Franciscan
friar - orthodox-Christian serbians (and a substantial number of Jews)
were murdered. Like the Nazis the Catholic Ustasha burned their victims
in kilns, alive (the Nazis were decent enough to have their victims
gassed first). But most of the victims were simply stabbed, slain or shot
to death, the number of them being estimated between 300,000 and 600,000,
in a rather tiny country. Many of the killers were Franciscan friars. The
atrocities were appalling enough to induce bystanders of the Nazi
"Sicherheitsdient der SS", watching, to complain about them to Hitler
(who did not listen). The pope knew about these events and did nothing to
prevent them. [MV]
Catholic terror in Vietnam
In 1954 Vietnamese freedom fighters - the Viet Minh - had finally
defeated the French colonial government in North Vietnam, which by then
had been supported by U.S. funds amounting to more than $2 billion.
Although the victorious assured religious freedom to all (most non-
buddhist Vietnamese were Catholics), due to huge anticommunist propaganda
campaigns many Catholics fled to the South. With the help of Catholic
lobbies in Washington and Cardinal Spellman, the Vatican's spokesman in
U.S. politics, who later on would call the U.S. forces in Vietnam
"Soldiers of Christ", a scheme was concocted to prevent democratic
elections which could have brought the communist Viet Minh to power in
the South as well, and the fanatic Catholic Ngo Dinh Diem was made
president of South Vietnam. [MW16ff]
Diem saw to it that U.S. aid, food, technical and general assistance was
given to Catholics alone, Buddhist individuals and villages were ignored
or had to pay for the food aids which were given to Catholics for free.
The only religious denomination to be supported was Roman Catholicism.
The Vietnamese McCarthyism turned even more vicious than its American
counterpart. By 1956 Diem promulgated a presidential order which read:
"Individuals considered dangerous to the national defense and common
security may be confined by executive order, to a concentration camp."

Supposedly to fight communism, thousands of buddhist protesters and monks
were imprisoned in "detention camps." Out of protest dozens of buddhist
teachers - male and female - and monks poured gasoline over themselves
and burned themselves. (Note that Buddhists burned themselves: in
comparison Christians tend to burn others). Meanwhile some of the prison
camps, which in the meantime were filled with Protestant and even
Catholic protesters as well, had turned into no-nonsense death camps. It
is estimated that during this period of terror (1955-1960) at least
24,000 were wounded - mostly in street riots - 80,000 people were
executed, 275,000 had been detained or tortured, and about 500,000 were
sent to concentration or detention camps. [MW76-89].
To support this kind of government in the next decade thousands of
American GI's lost their life.

Christianity kills the cat
On July 1, 1976, Anneliese Michel, a 23-year-old student of a teachers
college in Germany, died: she starved herself to death. For months she
had been haunted by demonic visions and apparitions, and for months two
Catholic priests - with explicit approval of the Catholic bishop of
Wrzburg - additionally pestered and tormented the wretched girl with
their exorcist rituals. After her death in Klingenberg hospital - her
body was littered with wounds - her parents, both of them fanatical
Catholics, were sentenced to six months for not having called for medical
help. None of the priests was punished: on the contrary, Miss Michel's
grave today is a place of pilgrimage and worship for a number of
similarly faithful Catholics (in the seventeenth century Wrzburg was
notorious for it's extensive witch burnings).
This case is only the tip of an iceberg of such evil superstition and has
become known only because of its lethal outcome. [SP80]

Rwanda Massacres
In 1994 in the small african country of Rwanda in just a few months
several hundred thousand civilians were butchered, apparently a conflict
of the Hutu and Tutsi ethnic groups.
For quite some time I heard only rumours about Catholic clergy actively
involved in the 1994 Rwanda massacres. Odd denials of involvement were
printed in Catholic church journals, before even anybody had openly
accused members of the church.
Then, 10/10/96, in the newscast of S2 Aktuell, Germany - a station not at
all critical to Christianity - the following was stated:
"Anglican as well as Catholic priests and nuns are suspect of having
actively participated in murders. Especially the conduct of a certain
Catholic priest has been occupying the public mind in Rwanda's capital
Kigali for months. He was minister of the church of the Holy Family and
allegedly murdered Tutsis in the most brutal manner. He is reported to
have accompanied marauding Hutu militia with a gun in his cowl. In fact
there has been a bloody slaughter of Tutsis seeking shelter in his
parish. Even two years after the massacres many Catholics refuse to set
foot on the threshold of their church, because to them the participation
of a certain part of the clergy in the slaughter is well established.
There is almost no church in Rwanda that has not seen refugees - women,
children, old - being brutally butchered facing the crucifix.
According to eyewitnesses clergymen gave away hiding Tutsis and turned
them over to the machetes of the Hutu militia.
In connection with these events again and again two Benedictine nuns are
mentioned, both of whom have fled into a Belgian monastery in the
meantime to avoid prosecution. According to survivors one of them called
the Hutu killers and led them to several thousand people who had sought
shelter in her monastery. By force the doomed were driven out of the
churchyard and were murdered in the presence of the nun right in front of
the gate. The other one is also reported to have directly cooperated with
the murderers of the Hutu militia. In her case again witnesses report
that she watched the slaughtering of people in cold blood and without
showing response. She is even accused of having procured some petrol used
by the killers to set on fire and burn their victims alive..." [S2]
As can be seen from these events, to Christianity the Dark Ages never
come to an end.

References:
[DA]
K.Deschner, Abermals krhte der Hahn, Stuttgart 1962.
[DO]
K.Deschner, Opus Diaboli, Reinbek 1987.
[EC]
P.W.Edbury, Crusade and Settlement, Cardiff Univ. Press 1985.
[EJ]
S.Eidelberg, The Jews and the Crusaders, Madison 1977.
[LI]
H.C.Lea, The Inquisition of the Middle Ages, New York 1961.
[MM]
M.Margolis, A.Marx, A History of the Jewish People.
[MV]
A.Manhattan, The Vatican�s Holocaust, Springfield 1986.
See also V.Dedijer, The Yugoslav Auschwitz and the Vatican, Buffalo NY,
1992.
[NC]
J.T.Noonan, Contraception: A History of its Treatment by the Catholic
Theologians and Canonists, Cambridge/Mass., 1992.
[S2]
Newscast of S2 Aktuell, Germany, 10/10/96, 12:00.
[SH]
D.Stannard, American Holocaust, Oxford University Press 1992.
[SP]
German news magazine Der Spiegel, no.49, 12/2/1996.
[TA]
A True Account of the Most Considerable Occurrences that have Hapned in
the Warre Between the English and the Indians in New England, London
1676.
[TG]
F.Turner, Beyond Geography, New York 1980.
[WW]
H.Wollschlger: Die bewaffneten Wallfahrten gen Jerusalem, Zrich 1973.
(This is in german and what is worse, it is out of print. But it is the
best I ever read about crusades and includes a full list of original
medieval Christian chroniclers' writings).
[WV]
Estimates on the number of executed witches:

N.Cohn, Europe's Inner Demons: An Enquiry Inspired by the Great Witch
Hunt, Frogmore 1976, 253.
R.H.Robbins, The Encyclopedia of Witchcraft and Demonology, New York
1959, 180.
J.B.Russell, Witchcraft in the Middle Ages, Ithaca/NY 1972, 39.
H.Zwetsloot, Friedrich Spee und die Hexenprozesse, Trier 1954, 56.

[walksalone]

Pete <d...@kn.app> wrote in news:WAZQs.83318$532....@newsfe03.iad:


Warning to aa, yes, those lists again.

> On Thu, 07 Feb 2013 18:20:36 -0800, Christopher A. Lee wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 7 Feb 2013 17:54:11 -0800, Pete <d...@kn.app> wrote:
>>

>>>On Thu, 07 Feb 2013 08:25:26 -0600, Mitchell Holman wrote:
>>>
snip, thank gosh.

>> What God?
>>
>
> There is only one God.

As far as you know, which is beging to look like extremely little when it
comes to humanity's gods.
Now, pick out your god from the following incomplete lists.
A-a
Abgaledit
Abhijnaraja
Abhimukhi
Abonsam
Acadla
Acolmiztli
Acolnahuacatl
Adad
Adhimukticarya
Adhimuktivasita
Adibuddha
Adidharma
Adro
Aed
Aengus
Age
Aglibol
Aine
Ajalamo
Ajaya
Aje
Akasagarbha
Akonadi
Akongo
Aksayajnana -Karmanda
Aksobhya
Ala
Alad Udug Lama
Alatangana
Alk'unta'm
Allat
Almaqh
Ama-arhus
Amaethon
Amasagnul
Amida
Amimitl
Amitabha
Amm
Amma
Amma (2)
Amma (l)
Ammavaru
Amoghapasa
Amoghasiddhi
Anantamukhi
Anat
Anaulikutsai'x
Anbay
Andarta
Anjea
Ankalamman
Ansar
Antu
Anu
Anu
Anunnaki
Aondo
Apap
Aphrodisias
Apsu
A'ra
Arapacana
Arawa
Aray
Arcismati
Arebati
Arebati
Arianrhod
Arsay
Arsu
Arthapratisamvit
Arvernus
Arya-Tara
Asalluha
Asar
Asase Yaa
Asase Yaa
Aserah
Aserah
Asertu
Ashiakle
Asira
Asis
Asnan
Asokottamasri
Asratum
Assur
Astlik
Ataa Naa Nyongmo
Atarsamain
Atete
Athirat
Atl
Atlahua
Attar
Aufaniae
Avalokitesvara
Avalokitesvara
Avrikiti
Aya
Ayaba
Ayurvasita
Azizos
Ba
Baal
Baba
Badb
Bagba
Balaparamita
Bala-Sakti
Baltis
Banba
Banga
Barsamin
Basamum
Beg-Tse
Behanzin
Bel
Belatucadros
Belenus
Belet-Ili
Belet-Seri
Beltiya
Bhagavan
Bhaisajyaguru
Bhrkuti- Tara
Bhumi
Bhutadamara
Bi-har
Birdu
Boann
Bodhisattva
Bonchor
Bres Macelatha
Brigit
Buadza
Buddha
Buddhabodhiprabhavasita
Buddhakapala
Budha
Bugid Y Aiba
Buk
Bumba
Bumba
Caelestis
Cagu
Cailleach Bheur
Camulos
Camunda
Candali
Candarosana
Candesvari
Cankilikkaruppan
Carcika
Cathubodua
Cauri
Ce Acatl
Cenkalaniyammal
Centeocihuatl
Ceridwen
Cernunnos
Cghene
Chalchiuhtlatonal
Chalchiuhtlicue
Chalchiuhtotolin
Chalmecacihuitl
Chalmecatl
Chang Fei
Chang Hs'ien
Chantico
Chattrosnisa
Chi Sung Tzu
Chicomecohuatl
Chicomexochitl
Chiconahui
Chiconahui Itzculntli-Chantico
Chiconahuiehecatl
Chikara
Chiuke
Chos-Skyon
Chu Jung
Cihuacoatl-Quilaztli
Cipactli
Cipactonal
Citlalatonac
Citlalicue
Citrasena
Cittavasita
Co(co)chimetl
Coatlicue
Cocidius
Col
Condatis
Coyolxauhqui
Cunda
Dadimunda
Dagan
Dagan (2)
Dagda
Damgalnuna
Danaparamita
Danu (I)
Datin
Deng
Deng
Dhanada
Dharani
Dharmadhatuvagisvara
Dharmakirtisagaraghosa
Dharmamegha
Dharmapala
Dharmavasita
Dhrtarastra
Dhupa
Dhupatara
Dhvajagrakeyura
Dhvajosnisa
Dhyanibuddha
Dhyanibuddhasakti
Diancecht
Diang
Dictynna
Digambara
Dipa
Dipa Tara
Dipankara
Divona
dMu-bDud Kam-Po Sa-Zan
Dombi
Don
Dongo
Donn
Dumuzi
Durjaya
Dzivaguru
Ea
Edeke
Ehecatl
Ehecatl-Quetzalcoatl
Eji Ogbe
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El'eb
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Ellaman
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Epona
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Erh Lang
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Erra
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Esu
Esus
Faraguvol
Faro
Faro
Fe
Feng Po
Fidi MukuIlu
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Flaitheas
Fu Shen
Gad
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Gestu
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God
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Il
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Karai-Shin
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Rubanga
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Sa
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sMan-Bla
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So
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Tar
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Teuhcatl
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Tezcatzoncatl
Thab-Iha
Theandros
Thuremlin
TIaloque- Tepictoton
Tiamat
Tien Mu
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Tir
Tispak
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Tlahuizcalpantecuhtli
Tlalchitonatiuh
Tlaloc
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Tloque Nahauque
Tne'sqan
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Tomiyauhtecuhtli
Tomiyauhtecuhtli
Tonacacihuatl
Tonacatccuhtli
Tonaleque
Tonatiuh
Topoh
Tork
Toro
Tororut
Totoltecatl
Totoltecatl
Tou Mou
Tozi
Trailokyavijaya
Triglav
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Tsunigoab
Tu (l)
Tuatha de Danann
Tule
Tutu
Tzontemoc
Tzu Sun Niangniang
Ua Ildak
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Unumbote
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Upakesini
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Usnisavijaya
Vac
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Verbti
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Vidyraja
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Wed Kumbamb
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Wiu
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Wu
Wu'squus
Xewioso
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Xochiquetzal-Ichpuchtli
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Yama
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Yaro
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yauhqueme
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Yoalli Ehecatl
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Yu-Chiang
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Zarpanitu(m)
Zemi

>> Where did you demonstrate its real world existence, and its
>> applicability to everybody?

> It? there is no it? Only a fool says in their heart, there is no God.

4:17 Guard thy foot when thou goest to the house of God, and be ready to
hearken: it is better than when fools give sacrifices; for they know not
that they do evil.


5:2 For a dream cometh through a multitude of business; and a fool's
voice through a multitude of words.

5:3 When thou vowest a vow unto God, defer not to pay it; for He hath no
pleasure in fools; pay that which thou vowest.

6:8 For what advantage hath the wise more than the fool? or the poor man
that hath understanding, in walking before the living?

9:17 The words of the wise spoken in quiet are more acceptable than the
cry of a ruler among fools.


9:7 The days of visitation are come, the days of recompense are come,
Israel shall know it. The prophet is a fool, the man of the spirit is
mad! For the multitude of thine iniquity, the enmity is great.


19:11 The princes of Zoan are utter fools; the wisest counsellors of
Pharaoh are a senseless counsel; how can ye say unto Pharaoh: 'I am the
son of the wise, the son of ancient kings'?

50:36 A sword is upon the boasters, and they shall become fools; a sword
is upon her mighty men, and they shall be dismayed.

10:8 The wise in heart will receive commandments; but a prating fool
shall fall.

19:10 Luxury is not seemly for a fool; much less for a servant to have
rule over princes.

20:3 It is an honour for a man to keep aloof from strife; but every fool
will be snarling.

Now, show the audience you are posturing for, how that makes sense when
according to the Hebrew text, a foolm is not defined in any specific
manner. & why xians are disqualified from the title.

BTW, humanmity, had & has many gods. Yours, like the other revealed gods
of the desert, are not counted among the better.

>> What Christ?

Indeed, there is only one true Judaic messiah, & bubba the bastard child
who is not from the House of David is not it. Quite possibly, he is
responsible for the condition of the western world, & its cancer in the
rest of the world, today. His name is Korash, but you are not likely
aware of him or his importance. Without him, we would not have had the
religious hatered we have today.
Jesus of Nazareth (c. 4 BC - c. 30)
Theudas
Menahem ben Judah
Simon bar Kokhba (died c. 135) - defeated in the Second Jewish War
Moses of Crete (5th century)
Is?a? ben Ya'?ub Obadiah Abu 'Isa al-Isfahani of Ispahan
Yudghan
Serene (Sherini, Sheria, Serenus, Zonoria, Sa�ra) (c. 720)
David Alroy or Alrui (c. 1160)
Abraham Abulafia (b. 1240)
Nissim ben Abraham
David Reuveni
Shlomo Molkho (or, Solomon Molko)
Isaac Luria (or, Yitzhak Luria)
Hayim Vital
Moses Botarel of Cisneros
Asher Lemmlein
Sabbatai Zevi (Alternative spellings: Shabbetai, Sabbetai; Tvi, Tzvi)
Jacob Querido
Barukhia Russo (Osman Baba)
Miguel (Abraham) Cardoso (b. 1630)
Mordecai Mokia? ("the Rebuker") of Eisenstadt
L�bele Prossnitz
Jacob Joseph Frank (1726 - 1791) - Founder of the Frankist movement
R. Nachman of Bratslav
J. Krishnamurti (1895 - 1986)
Rebbe Menachem Mendel Schneerson (1902 - 1994)
Georges-Emest Roux (1903 - 1981), the Christ de Montfavet, founder of the
Eglise Chr�tienne Universelle
Sun Myung Moon (born 1920) - Founder of the Unification Church
Sathya Sai Baba (born 1926 or 1929)
David Icke (born 1952), the British former footballer and football
commentator who became famous in the early 1990s for claiming to be the
Son of God.
David Koresh (1959-1993)
Maria Devi Christos (born 1960) - Founder of the "Great White
Brotherhood"
Jesus of Nazareth (c. 4 BC - c. 30)
Theudas
Menahem ben Judah
Simon bar Kokhba (died c. 135) - defeated in the Second Jewish War
Moses of Crete (5th century)
Is?a? ben Ya'?ub Obadiah Abu 'Isa al-Isfahani of Ispahan
Yudghan
Serene (Sherini, Sheria, Serenus, Zonoria, Sa�ra) (c. 720)
David Alroy or Alrui (c. 1160)
Abraham Abulafia (b. 1240)
Nissim ben Abraham
David Koresh
David Reuveni
Shlomo Molkho (or, Solomon Molko)
Isaac Luria (or, Yitzhak Luria)
Hayim Vital
Moses Botarel of Cisneros
Asher Lemmlein
Sabbatai Zevi (Alternative spellings: Shabbetai, Sabbetai; Tvi, Tzvi)
Jacob Querido
Barukhia Russo (Osman Baba)
Miguel (Abraham) Cardoso (b. 1630)
Mordecai Mokia? ("the Rebuker") of Eisenstadt
L�bele Prossnitz
Jacob Joseph Frank (1726 - 1791) - Founder of the Frankist movement
R. Nachman of Bratslav
Jiddu Krishnamurti (1895 - 1986)
Rebbe Menachem Mendel Schneerson (1902 - 1994)
Georges-Emest Roux (1903 - 1981), the Christ de Montfavet, founder of the
Eglise Chr�tienne Universelle
Sun Myung Moon (born 1920) - Founder of the Unification Church
David Icke (born 1952), the British former footballer and football
commentator who became famous in the early 1990s for claiming to be the
Son of God.
In Judaism, the Messiah (from the Hebrew ????, moshiach, meaning "the
anointed one") is a human descendant of King David, who will rebuild the
nation of Israel and restore the Davidic Kingdom; thus bringing world
peace. Christians consider Jesus Christ to be that messiah, as well as
the son of God and a part of trinity. The word Christ (Greek ???st??,
Khristos, "the anointed one") is a literal translation of "moshiach".

The Septuagint, an ancient Jewish translation of the Old Testament into
Greek, translates all thirty-nine instances of the word as Khristos. The
New Testament records the Greek form ?ess?a?, Messias, only twice, in
John 1:41 and 4:25.

In the Hebrew Bible
Main articles: Judaism and Christianity and Jewish Messiah

The messiah-concept plays a prominent role in many books in the Hebrew
Bible (Old Testament). In the Hebrew Bible, Israelite priests, prophets,
and kings were anointed with oil, and so consecrated to their respective
offices. The moshiach is anointed "above all his fellows" (Psalms 45:7),
and therefore embraces himself in all the three offices.

The Hebrew Bible contains a small number of prophecies concerning a
future descendant of King David, who will be anointed as the Jewish
people's new leader (moshiach). This leader will rebuild the nation of
Israel and restore the Davidic Kingdom.

The Jewish concept of moshiach (the messiah) has little, if anything, in
common with the Christian concept of Jesus Christ as messiah. This
subject is covered in more detail in the entry on Jewish eschatology.

In the New Testament
main article: Jesus Christ as the Messiah

Christians as we have come to know it emerged from Judaism in the first
century of the Common Era. The first Christians were Jews, and likely
subscribed to Jewish beliefs and practices common at the time. Among
these was a belief that a messiah � a descendant of King David�would
restore the monarchy and Jewish independence. According to mainstream
Jewish beliefs, the failure of Jesus to restore the Kingdom, and his
crucifixion by Romans, negated claims that he was the messiah (since most
Jews do not accept that Jesus was the messiah, they reject the use of the
full (Christian) name. See the Jewish conception of the messiah for a
more detailed discussion of the Jewish understanding of the messiah).
Nevertheless, many of Jesus's followers�perhaps inspired by encounters
with Jesus after his crucifixion and entombment, but also drawing on
alternative interpretations of Biblical passages�redefined the concept of
messiah to encompass the resurrection and the promise of a second coming.
In addition to this alternative understanding of the messiah, early
Christians brought from Judaism its scriptures, fundamental doctrines
such as monotheism, and other beliefs and practices. See Comparing and
contrasting Judaism and Christianity.

Christian readings of the Hebrew Bible or Old Testament uncover what they
see as hundreds of references to Jesus Christ; some such readings
maintain that almost every reading was about not only the topic of the
chapter as such, but is also about the coming of Jesus Christ Himself, if
only read properly. In this view, the prophecies about Jesus became more
definite and fuller as the ages rolled on. Different periods of prophetic
revelation have been pointed out: (1) the patriarchal; (2) the Mosaic;
(3) the period of David; (4) the period of prophetism, i.e., of those
prophets whose work form a part of the Old Testament canon.

In Islam
Main article: Isa

In al-Qur'an, the scripture of Islam, Isa (Jesus) is described as a
Prophet of Allah (God) as well as messiah. He is regarded, like all other
Prophets in Islam, as a human being, and not God incarnate nor the son of
God. However the role of the messiah is reduced greatly in importance.
The main task of the messiah in Islam is to proclaim the coming of Ahmed.

Of much greater importance is another figure in Islam called al-Mahdi who
might be described as a messianic figure, but is an entirely differnt
person and is not considered to be the Messiah in Islam. Shia and Sunni
opinions on al-Mahdi differ somewhat, but both sects agree that Isa
(Jesus), the son of Mary, is the Messiah.

Other Jewish people purported to be messiahs

Josephus's report of messiahs in the first century

Josephus asserts that the Jesus of the Christians was indeed the true
messiah. However, also from Josephus it appears that in the first century
before the destruction of the Temple a number of messiahs arose promising
relief from the Roman yoke, and finding ready followers. Josephus speaks
of them thus: "Another body of wicked men also sprung up, cleaner in
their hands, but more wicked in their intentions, who destroyed the peace
of the city no less than did these murderers [the Sicarii]. For they were
deceivers and deluders of the people, and, under pretense of divine
illumination, were for innovations and changes, and prevailed on the
multitude to act like madmen, and went before them in the wilderness,
pretending that God would there show them signs of liberty" (Josephus,
"B. J." ii. 13, �; 4; idem, "Ant." xx. 8, �; 6). Matt. xxiv. 24, warning
against "false Christs and false prophets," gives testimony to the same
effect.

About 44 CE a man named Theudas appeared, claiming to be a prophet. He
urged the people to follow him with their belongings to the Jordan, which
he would divide for them. According to Acts v. 36 (which seems to refer
to a different date), he secured about 400 followers. Cuspius Fadus sent
a troop of horsemen after him and his band, slew many of them, and took
captive others, together with their leader, beheading the latter ("Ant."
xx. 5, � 1).

An Egyptian messiah is said to have gathered together 30,000 adherents,
whom he summoned to the Mount of Olives, opposite Jerusalem, promising
that at his command the walls of Jerusalem would fall down, and that he
and his followers would enter and possess themselves of the city. But
Felix, the procurator (c. 55-60), met the throng with his soldiery. The
prophet escaped, but those with him were killed or captured, and the
multitude dispersed.

Another messiah, Josephus reports, promised the people "deliverance and
freedom from their miseries" if they would follow him to the wilderness.
Both leader and followers were killed by the troops of Festus, the
procurator. Even when Jerusalem was already being destroyed by the
Romans, a prophet, according to Josephus suborned by the defenders to
keep the people from deserting, announced that God commanded them to come
to the Temple, there to receive miraculous signs of their deliverance.
Those who came met death in the flames.

Menahem ben Judah

Unlike these Messiahs, who expected their people's deliverance to be
achieved through divine intervention, Menahem, the son of Judas the
Galilean and grandson of Hezekiah, the leader of the Zealots, who had
troubled Herod, was a warrior. When the war broke out he attacked Masada
with his band, armed his followers with the weapons stored there, and
proceeded to Jerusalem where he captured the fortress Antonia,
overpowering the troops of Agrippa II. Emboldened by his success, he
behaved as a king, and claimed the leadership of all the troops. Thereby
he aroused the enmity of Eleazar, another Zealot leader, and met death as
a result of a conspiracy against him. He is probably identical with the
Menahem ben Hezekiah mentioned in the Talmud (tractate Sanhedrin 98b) and
called "the comforter that should relieve".

Bar Kokhba

With the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem the appearance of
messiahs ceased for a time. Sixty years later a politico-Messianic
movement of large proportions took place with Shimeon Bar Kokhba (also:
Bar Kosiba) at its head. This leader of the revolt against Rome was
hailed as Messiah-king by Rabbi Akiva, who referred to him, Numbers xxiv.
17: "There shall come forth a star out of Jacob, and a scepter shall rise
out of Israel, and shall smite through the corners of Moab,", and Hag.
ii. 21, 22; "I will shake the heavens and the earth and I will overthrow
the thrones of kingdoms. . . ." (Talmud tracate Sanhedrin 97b). Although
some doubted his messiahship, he seems to have carried the nation with
him for his undertaking. After stirring up a war (133-135) that taxed the
power of Rome, he at last met his death on the walls of Bethar. His
Messianic movement ended in defeat and misery for the survivors.

Moses of Crete

The unsuccessful issue of the Bar Kokba war put an end for centuries to
Messianic movements, but Messianic hopes were nonetheless cherished. In
accordance with a computation found in the Talmud, the Messiah was
expected in 440 (Sanh. 97b) or 471 ('Ab. Zarah 9b). This expectation in
connection with the disturbances in the Roman empire attendant upon
invasions may have raised up the Messiah who appeared about this time in
Crete, and who won over the Jewish population to his movement. He called
himself Moses, and promised to lead the people, like the ancient Moses,
dryshod through the sea back to Palestine. His followers, convinced by
him, left their possessions and waited for the promised day, when at his
command many cast themselves into the sea, some finding death, others
being rescued. The pseudo-Messiah himself disappeared (Socrates,
"Historia Ecclesiastica," vii. 38; Gr�tz, "Gesch." 3d ed., iv. 354-355).

In 7th century Persia

The pseudo-Messiahs that followed played their roles in the Orient, and
were at the same time religious reformers whose work influenced Karaism.
At the end of the seventh century appeared in Persia Is?a? ben Ya'?ub
Obadiah Abu 'Isa al-Isfahani of Ispahan (for other forms of his name and
for his sect see "J. Q. R." xvi. 768, 770, 771; Gr�tz, l.c. v., notes 15
and 17). He lived in the reign of the Ommiad Caliph 'Abd al-Malik ibn
Marwan (684-705). He claimed to be the last of the five forerunners of
the Messiah and to have been appointed by God to free Israel. According
to some he was himself the Messiah. Having gathered together a large
number of followers, he rebelled against the caliph, but was defeated and
slain at Rai. His followers claimed that he was inspired and urged as
proof the fact that he wrote books, although he was ignorant of reading
and writing. He founded the first sect that arose in Judaism after the
destruction of the Temple.

His disciple Yudghan, called "Al-Ra'i" (= "the shepherd of the flock of
his people"), who lived in the first half of the eighth century, declared
himself to be a prophet, and was by his disciples regarded as a Messiah.
He came from Hamadan, and taught doctrines which he claimed to have
received through prophecy. According to Shahristani, he opposed the
belief in anthropomorphism, taught the doctrine of free will, and held
that the Torah had an allegorical meaning in addition to its literal one.
He admonished his followers to lead an ascetic life, to abstain from meat
and wine, and to pray and fast often, following in this his master Abu
'Isa. He held that the observance of the Sabbath and festivals was merely
a matter of memorial. After his death his followers formed a sect, the
Yudghanites, who believed that their Messiah had not died, but would
return.

Serene

Between 720 and 723 a Syrian, Serene (his name is given variously in the
sources as Sherini, Sheria, Serenus, Zonoria, Sa�ra) appeared as the
messiah. The immediate occasion for his appearance may have been the
restriction of the liberties of the Jews by the caliph Omar II (717-720)
and his proselytizing efforts. On the political side, this Messiah
promised the expulsion of the Muslims and the restoration of the Jews to
the Holy Land. He had followers even in Spain, where the Jews were
suffering under the oppressive taxation of their new Arab rulers, and
many left their homes for the new Messiah. Like Abu 'Isa and Yudghan,
Serene also was a religious reformer. He was hostile to rabbinic Judaism.
His followers disregarded the dietary laws, the rabbinically instituted
prayers, and the prohibition against the "wine of libation"; they worked
on the second day of the festivals; they did not write marriage and
divorce documents according to Talmudic prescriptions, and did not accept
the Talmudic prohibition against the marriage of near relatives (see
Gr�tz, l.c. note 14). Serene was arrested. Brought before Caliph Yazid,
he declared that he had acted only in jest, whereupon he was handed over
to the Jews for punishment. His followers were received back into the
fold upon giving up their heresy.

Messiahs during the Crusades

Under the influence of the Crusades the number of Messiahs increased, and
the twelfth century records many of them. One appeared in France (c.
1087) and was slain by the French; another appeared in the province of
Cordova (c. 1117), and one in Fez (c. 1127). Of these three nothing is
known beyond the mention of them in Maimonides' "Iggeret Teman" (letter
to the Yemenite Jews)

David Alroy

The next important Messianic movement appears again in Persia. David
Alroy or Alrui, who was born in Kurdistan, about 1160 declared himself a
Messiah. Taking advantage of his personal popularity, the disturbed and
weakened condition of the caliphate, and the discontent of the Jews, who
were burdened with a heavy poll tax, he set out upon his political
schemes, asserting that he had been sent by God to free the Jews from the
Moslem yoke and to lead them back to Jerusalem. For this purpose he
summoned the warlike Jews of the neighboring district of Adherbaijan and
also his coreligionists of Mosul and Baghdad to come armed to his aid and
to assist in the capture of Amadia. From this point his career is
enveloped in legend. His movement failed, and he is said to have been
assassinated, while asleep, by his own father-in-law. A heavy fine was
exacted from the Jews for this uprising. After his death Alroy had many
followers in Khof, Salmas, Tauris, and Maragha, and these formed a sect
called the Menahemists, from the Messianic name "Menahem," assumed by
their founder.

In Yemen

Soon after Alroy an alleged forerunner of the Messiah appeared in Yemen
(in 1172) just when the Muslims were making determined efforts to convert
the Jews living there. He declared the misfortunes of the time to be
prognostications of the coming Messianic kingdom, and called upon the
Jews to divide their property with the poor. This pseudo-Messiah was the
subject of Maimonides' "Iggeret Teman." He continued his activity for a
year, when he was arrested by the Muslim authorities and beheaded at his
own suggestion, it is said, in order that he might prove the truth of his
mission by returning to life.

Abraham Abulafia

With Abraham ben Samuel Abulafia (b. 1240; d. after 1291), the cabalist,
begin the pseudo-Messiahs whose activity is deeply influenced by their
cabalistic speculations. As a result of his mystic studies, Abulafia came
to believe first that he was a prophet; and in a prophetic book which he
published in Urbino (1279) he declared that God had spoken to him. In
Messina, on the island of Sicily, where he was well received and won
disciples, he declared himself to be the Messiah and announced 1290 as
the year for the Messianic era to begin. Solomon ben Adret, who was
appealed to with regard to Abulafia's claims, condemned him, and some
congregations declared against him. Persecuted in Sicily, he went to the
island of Comino, near Malta (c. 1288), still asserting in his writings
his Messianic mission. His end is unknown. Two of his disciples, Joseph
Gikatilla and Samuel, both from Medinaceli, later claimed to be prophets
and miracle-workers. The latter foretold in mystic language at Ayllon in
Segovia the advent of the Messiah.

Nissim ben Abraham

Another pretended prophet was Nissim ben Abraham, active in Avila. His
followers told of him that, although ignorant, he had been suddenly
endowed, by an angel, with the power to write a mystic work, "The Wonder
of Wisdom," with a commentary thereon. Again an appeal was made to
Solomon ben Adret, who doubted Nissim's prophetic pretension and urged
careful investigation. The prophet continued his activity, nevertheless,
and even fixed the last day of the fourth month, Tammuz, 1295, as the
date for the Messiah's coming. The credulous prepared for the event by
fasting and almsgiving, and came together on the appointed day. But
instead of finding the Messiah, some saw on their garments little
crosses, perhaps pinned on by unbelievers to ridicule the movement. In
their disappointment some of Nissim's followers are said to have gone
over to Christianity. What became of the prophet is unknown.

Moses Botarel of Cisneros

After the lapse of a century another false Messiah came forward with
Messianic pretensions. According to Gr�tz (l.c. viii. 404), this
pretended Messiah is to be identified with Moses Botarel of Cisneros. One
of his adherents and partizans was Hasdai Crescas. Their relation is
referred to by Geronimo da Santa F� in his speech at the disputation in
Tortosa 1413.

Asher Lemmlein

In 1502, Asher Lemmlein (L�mmlein), a German proclaiming himself a
forerunner of the Messiah, appeared in Istria, near Venice, and announced
that if the Jews would be penitent and practice charity the Messiah would
come within half a year, and a pillar of cloud and of smoke would precede
the Jews on their return to Jerusalem. He found believers in Italy and
Germany, even among the Christians. In obedience to his preaching, people
fasted and prayed and gave alms to prepare for the coming of the Messiah,
so that the year came to be known as the "year of penitence." But the
"Messiah" either died or disappeared (see Lemmlein Asher).

Reuveni and Solomon Molko

Among the pseudo-Messiahs are to be included David Reuveni and Solomon
Molko. The former pretended to be the ambassador and brother of the King
of Khaibar, a town and former district of Arabia, in which the
descendants of the "lost tribes" of Rueben and Gad were supposed to
dwell. He sent to the pope and powers of Europe to secure cannon and
firearms for war against the Muslims, who, he said, prevented the union
of the Jews living on the two sides of the Red Sea. He denied expressly
that he was a Messiah or a prophet (comp. Fuenn, "Keneset Yisrael," p.
256), claiming that he was merely a warrior. The credence which he found
at the papal court in 1524, the reception accorded to him in 1525 at the
Portuguese court (whither he came at the invitation of John III, and
where he at first received the promise of help), the temporary cessation
of persecution of the Maranos--all gave the Portuguese and Spanish
Maranos reason to believe that Reuveni was a forerunner of the Messiah.
Selaya, inquisitor of Badajoz, complained to the King of Portugal that a
Jew who had come from the Orient (referring to Reuveni) had filled the
Spanish Maranos with the hope that the Messiah would come and lead Israel
from all lands back to Palestine, and that he had even emboldened them to
overt acts (comp. Gr�tz, l.c. ix. 532). A spirit of expectancy was
aroused by Reuveni's stay in Portugal. A Marano woman in the region of
Herara in Puebla de Alcocer declared herself a prophetess, had visions,
and promised to lead her coreligionists to the Holy Land. She and many
who believed in her were burned.

Isaac Luria

Isaac Luria (Isaac ben Solomon Ashkenazi Luria) was a Jewish advocate of
Kabbalah (esoteric mysticism) and claimed to be the messiah. At a later
point, his disciple and successor, Hayyim Vital Calabrese, was thought of
as the messiah by some Palestinian Jews. Both claimed to be Ephraitic
Messiahs, forerunners of the Davidic Messiah.

Isaac Luria (b. 1534 in Jerusalem; d. 1572 in Safed, Israel) taught in
his mystic system the transmigration and superfetation of souls, and
believed himself to possess the soul of the messiah of the house of
Joseph, and to have it as his mission to hasten the coming of the messiah
of the house of David through the mystic improvement of souls. Having
developed his Kabbalistic system in Egypt without finding many followers,
he went to Safed, Israel, about 1569. There he met Hayyim Vital
Calabrese, to whom he revealed his secrets and through whom he secured
many disciples. To these he taught secretly his messiahship. He believed
that the messianic era would commence in the beginning of the second half
of the second day (of the year 1000) after the destruction of the Temple
in Jerusalem, that is, in 1568.

On Luria's death, Hayyim Vital Calabrese (b. 1543; d. 1620 at Damascus)
claimed to be the Ephraitic Messiah and preached the speedy advent of the
Messianic era. In 1574 Abraham Shalom, a pretender to the Davidic
Messiahship, it seems, sent to Vital, saying that he (Shalom) was the
Davidic Messiah, whereas Vital was the Messiah of the house of Joseph. He
urged Vital to go to Jerusalem and stay there for at least two years,
whereupon the divine spirit would come upon him. Shalom bade Vital,
furthermore, not to fear death, the fate of the Ephraitic Messiah, as he
would seek to save him from this doom.

Sabbatai Zevi

The most important messianic movement, and one whose influence was wide-
spread throughout Jewry, lasting in some quarters over a century, was
that of Sabbatai (or Shabbethai) Zevi (b. at Smyrna 1626; d. at Dulcigno
1676). See the article on Sabbatai Zevi for more details.

Sabbethaian pseudo-messiahs

After his death Sabbatai was followed by a line of putative messiahs.
Jacob Querido, son of Joseph Filosof, and brother of the fourth wife of
Sabbatai, became the head of the Shabbethaians in Salonica, being
regarded by them as the incarnation of Shabbethai. He pretended to be
Shabbethai's son and adopted the name Jacob Tzvi. With 400 followers he
went over to Islam about 1687, forming a sect called the D�nmeh. He
himself even made a pilgrimage to Mecca (c. 1690). After his death his
son Berechiah or Berokia succeeded him (c. 1695-1740).

A number of Shabbethai's followers declared themselves Messiahs. Miguel
(Abraham) Cardoso (1630-1706), born of Marano parents, may have been
initiated into the Shabbethaian movement by Moses Pinheiro in Leghorn. He
became a prophet of the Messiah, and when the latter embraced Islam he
justified this treason, saying that it was necessary for the Messiah to
be reckoned among the sinners in order to atone for Israel's idolatry. He
applied Isa. liii. to Shabbethai, and sent out epistles to prove that
Shabbethai was the true Messiah, and he even suffered persecution for
advocating his cause. Later he considered himself as the Ephraitic
Messiah, asserting that he had marks on his body which were proof of
this. He preached and wrote of the speedy coming of the Messiah, fixing
different dates until his death (see Cardoso, Miguel).

Mordecai Mokia???

Another follower of Shabbethai who remained faithful to him, Mordecai
Mokia? ("the Rebuker") of Eisenstadt, also pretended to be a Messiah. His
period of activity was from 1678 to 1682 or 1683. He preached at first
that Shabbethai was the true Messiah, that his conversion was for mystic
reasons necessary, that he did not die but would reveal himself within
three years after his supposed death, and pointed to the persecution of
the Jews in Oran (by Spain), in Austria, and in France, and to the
pestilence in Germany as prognostications of his coming. He found a
following among Hungarian, Moravian, and Bohemian Jews. Going a step
further, he declared that he was the Davidic Messiah. Shabbethai,
according to him, was only the Ephraitic Messiah and was furthermore
rich, and therefore could not accomplish the redemption of Israel. He
(Mordecai), being poor, was the real Messiah and at the same time the
incarnation of the soul of the Ephraitic Messiah. Italian Jews heard of
him and invited him to Italy. He went there about 1680, and received a
warm welcome in Reggio and Modena. He spoke of Messianic preparations
which he had to make in Rome, and hinted at having perhaps to adopt
Christianity outwardly. Denounced to the Inquisition, or advised to leave
Italy, he returned to Bohemia, and then went to Poland, where he is said
to have become insane. From his time a sect began to form there, which
still existed at the beginning of the Mendelssohnian era.

Another Shabbethaians messaish claimant was L�bele Prossnitz. He taught
that God had given dominion of the world to the "pious one," i.e., the
one who had entered into the depths of Kabbalah. Such a representative of
God had been Shabbethai, whose soul had passed into other "pious" men,
into Jonathan Eybesch�tz and into himself. Another, Isaiah Hasid (a
brother-in-law of the Shabbethaian Judah Hasid), who lived in Mannheim,
secretly claimed to be the resurrected Messiah, although publicly he had
abjured Shabbethaian beliefs.

Jacob Frank

Jacob Frank (b. 1726 in Podolia; d. 1791), founder of the Frankists, also
claimed the be the messiah. In his youth he had been brought into
relation with the D�nmeh. He taught that he was a reincarnation of King
David. Having secured a following among some Turkish and Wallachian Jews,
he came in 1755 to Podolia, where the Shabbethaians were in need of a
leader, and revealed himself to them as the reincarnation of the soul of
Berechiah.

He laid stress on the idea of the "holy king" who was at the same time
Messiah, and he accordingly called himself "santo se�or" (="holy lord").
His followers claimed he performed miracles; and they even prayed to him.
His purpose, as well as that of his sect, was to uproot rabbinic Judaism.
He was forced to leave Podolia; and his followers were persecuted.
Returning in 1759, he advised his followers to embrace Christianity, and
about 1,000 were converted and became priviliged Polish gentry of Jewish
origins. He himself was converted in Warsaw November 1759. Later his
insincerity was exposed, and he was imprisoned as a heretic, remaining,
however, even in prison the head of this sect. See the article on Jacob
Frank for more details.

In Christianity
Most Christians have regarded Jesus as the one and only Messiah.
Currently there are about 800 million people who believe this living on
the earth.

A few million people - a fraction of one percent - consider Rev. Moon to
be the Second Coming of Christ.



Requirements for any messiah to perform on arrival:

Descendant of David

"See, a time is coming -- declares the Lord -- when I will raise up a
true branch of David's line. He shall reign as king and shall prosper,
and he shall do what is just and right in the land." -- Jeremiah 23:5
(See also Ezekiel 34:23-24, 37:21-28; Isaiah 11:1-9; Jeremiah 30:7-10;
Jeremiah 33:14-16; Hosea 3:4-5)

Preceded by Elijah

"Lo, I will send the prophet Elijah to you before the coming of the
awesome [the messiah], fearful day of the Lord. He shall reconcile
parents with children and children with their parents, so that, when I
come, I do not strike the whole land with utter destruction." -- Malachi
3:23-24

World Peace

"And he [the messiah] shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke
many people; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their
spears into pruning hooks. Nation shall not lift up sword against nation,
neither shall they learn war any more." -- Isaiah 2:4

"He [the messiah] will destroy death forever." -- Isaiah 25:8

"Then the inhabitants of the cities of Israel will go out and make fire
and feed them with the weapons -- shields and bucklers, bows and arrows,
clubs and spears; they shall use them as fuel for seven years." --
Ezekiel 39:9

Universal Knowledge of G-d

"For the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters
cover the sea." -- Isaiah 11:9

"And no longer shall one teach his neighbor or shall one teach his
brother, saying, 'Know the Lord, for they shall all know Me, from their
smallest to their greatest' says the Lord." -- Jeremiah 31:33

"All who survive of all those nations that came up against Jerusalem
shall make a pilgrimage year by year to bow low to the King Lord of Hosts
and to observe the feasts." -- Zechariah 14:16

"And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there
be one Lord, and His name one." -- Zechariah 14:9

"Thus said the Lord of Hosts: 'In those days, ten men from nations of
every tongue will take hold -- they will take hold of every Jew by a
corner of his cloak and say, 'Let us go with you, for we have heard that
G-d is with you'." -- Zechariah 8.23

Building of the Third Temple

"And I will set My sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore. My temple
also shall be with them. Yes, I will be their G-d and they shall be My
people. And the heathen shall know that I the Lord do sanctify Israel,
when My sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore." -- Ezekiel
37:26-28 (See also Ezekiel 40-48; Isaiah 33:20)

Death Will Cease

"He [the messiah] will swallow up death forever." -- Isaiah 25:8

Resurrection of the Dead

"Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise.
Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust, for thy dew is as the dew of
herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead." -- Isaiah 26:19

"And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some
to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." --
Daniel 12:2

"Therefore, prophecy and say to them, 'So says the Lord G-d: Lo! I open
your graves and cause you to come up out of your graves as My people, and
bring you home to the land of Israel. Then you shall know that I am the
Lord, when I open your graves and lead you up out of your graves as My
people'." -- Ezekiel 37:12-13

Ingathering of Israel

"I will bring thy seed from the east, and gather you from the west. I
will say to the north, 'Give up', and to the south, 'Keep not back, bring
My sons from far, and My daughter from the ends of the earth'." -- Isaiah
43:5-6. (See also Jeremiah 16:15; 23:3; Isaiah 11:12; Zechariah 10:6;
Ezekiel 37:21-22)

The Nations Will Help the Jews Materially

"Then you shall see and be radiant, and your heart shall fear and expand;
because the abundance of the sea shall be overturned upon you, the wealth
of the nations shall come to you." -- Isaiah 60:5

"Foreigners shall build up your walls, and their kings shall minister to
you. Men shall bring you the wealth of the nations with their kings led
in procession. For the nation and kingdom that will not serve you shall
perish; those nations shall be utterly laid waste." -- Isaiah 60:10-12

"But you shall be called 'priests of the Lord', men shall say of you,
'ministers of our G-d'; you shall eat the wealth of the nations, and in
their riches you shall glory." -- Isaiah 61:6

Eternal Joy and Gladness Will Characterize the Jewish Nation

"And the redeemed of the Lord shall return, and come to Zion in song;
everlasting joy shall be upon their head; they shall obtain joy and
gladness, and sorrow and sighing shall flee." -- Isaiah 51:11

The Jews Will Be Sought For Spiritual Guidance

"Thus says the Lord of hosts: 'In those days ten men out of all the
languages of the nations shall take hold and seize the robe of a Jew,
saying: 'Let us go with you, for we have heard that G-d is with you'." --
Zechariah 8:23

All Weapons Of War Will Be Destroyed

"Then those who dwell in the cities of Israel will go forth and set fire
to the weapons and burn them, shields and bucklers, bows and arrows,
handspikes and spears, and they will make fires of them for seven
years." -- Ezekiel 39:9

The Enemy Dead Will Be Buried

"For seven months the House of Israel will be burying them, in order to
cleanse the land." -- Ezekiel 39:12

The Egyptian River Will Run Dry

"And the Lord will utterly destroy the tongue of the sea of Egypt and
wave His hand over the river with His scorching wind, and smite it into
seven channels, and make men cross dryshod." -- Isaiah 11:15

Trees Will Yield New Fruit Monthly in Israel

"And on both sides of the bank of the stream, all trees for food will
grow; their leaves will not wither nor will their fruit fail, but they
will bear fresh fruit every month, because their waters flow from the
Sanctuary; their fruit will be for food, and their leaves for
medicine." -- Ezekiel 47:12

Each Tribe of Israel Will Receive It's Inheritance

"Thus says the Lord, G-d: 'These are the boundaries by which you shall
divide the land for inheritance among the twelve tribes of Israel: Joseph
shall have two portions. And you shall divide equally that which I swore
to give your fathers, and this land shall fall to you as your
inheritance'." -- Ezekiel 47:13-14

All Warfare Will Cease

"And He shall judge among the nations and decide for many peoples; and
they shall beat their swords into ploughshares, and their spears into
pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither
shall they learn war anymore." -- Isaiah 2:4

& of course, none of those requirements have been meet.

For more about the Judaic messiah:
The Messiah Texts
Raphel Patai

There are rather a lot of them.

> However, your freudian slip did suggest, One God. Good show.

His question of what god, is the correct way to request further
information from you about your version of god, LLc Inc.

Information you may be wise enough to avoid pretending to have, on any
but the emotional level

walksalone who suspects the phrase, SOSDD aka same old shit different
day, originated in the churches of the US. Well, it is, isn't it.


Fine clothes may disguise, but silly words will disclose a fool.

[Steve Hayes]

And tell us their attitude towards marriage.

[Mitchell Holman]

Pete <d...@kn.app> wrote in news:HJ1Rs.9910$Sq4....@newsfe14.iad:

> On Thu, 07 Feb 2013 21:18:41 -0600, Mitchell Holman wrote:
>
>> Pete <d...@kn.app> wrote in news:mvZQs.87807$uU.3...@newsfe11.iad:
>>
>>> On Thu, 7 Feb 2013 20:07:14 -0600, L. Raymond wrote:
>>>

>>>> Pete wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Slate would never have a clue.
>>>>> Regarding contracts an argument would then be made whether written
>>>>> or oral and be endless.
>>>>>
>>>>> As to a marriage before God, started for sure under the Jews.
>>>>
>>>> Really? You're certain neither the Hindus, Sumerians, Greeks,
>>>> Roman, Egyptians nor Chinese ever invoked gods at their ceremonies,
>>>> all of which would have predated or been contemporaneous with
>>>> Jewish civilization of a few millenia ago? How do you know that
>>>> "for sure"?
>>>>
>>>
>>> The question was about God, not gods. Most of the gods you speak of

>>> wouldn't care, they liked free sex, homo sex, animal sex, child sex,

>>> so of what value would there be for marriage.
>>

>> Whereas your God just likes.....murder.
>>
>> GE 6:11-17, 7:11-24 God is unhappy with the wickedness
>> of man and decides to do something about it. He kills
>> every living thing on the face of the earth other than
>> Noah's family.
>>
>> EX 9:22-25 A plague of hail from the Lord strikes down
>> everything in the fields of Egypt both man and beast
>> except in Goshen where the Israelites reside.
>>
>> EX 12:29 The Lord kills all the first-born in the
>> land of Egypt. Even the first born animals are killed.
>>
>> EX 32:27-29 With the Lord's approval, the Israelites
>> slay 3000 men.
>>
>> NU 16:27-33 The Lord causes the earth to open and
>> swallow up the men and their households (including
>> wives and children) because the men had been rebellious.
>>
>> NU 16:35 A fire from the Lord consumes 250 men.
>>
>> NU 16:49 A plague from the Lord kills 14,700 people.
>>

>> NU 21:6 Fiery serpents, sent by the Lord, kill many
>> Israelites.
>>
>> NU 31:17-18 Moses, following the Lord's command, orders
>> the Israelites to kill all the Midianite male children
>> and "... every woman who has known man ...." (Note: How
>> would it be determined which women had known men? One
>> can only speculate.)
>
> And.....forever you shall roast in the Lake of fire and brimstone made
> for the devil and his angels unless you repent. God is a Just God.

Really?

Your god goes thru Egypt killing all the
first born children and you call that "just"?

[walksalone]

Steve Hayes <haye...@telkomsa.net> wrote in
news:l1s9h8hataj0gaaaa...@4ax.com:

> On Fri, 8 Feb 2013 11:47:57 +0000 (UTC), walksalone
> <spams...@nerdshack.com> wrote:
>
>>Pete <d...@kn.app> wrote in news:WAZQs.83318$532....@newsfe03.iad:
>>
>>
>>Warning to aa, yes, those lists again.
>>
>>> On Thu, 07 Feb 2013 18:20:36 -0800, Christopher A. Lee wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Thu, 7 Feb 2013 17:54:11 -0800, Pete <d...@kn.app> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On Thu, 07 Feb 2013 08:25:26 -0600, Mitchell Holman wrote:
>>>>>
>>snip, thank gosh.
>>
>>
>>>> What God?
>>>>
>>>
>>> There is only one God.
>>
>>As far as you know, which is beging to look like extremely little when
>>it comes to humanity's gods.
>>Now, pick out your god from the following incomplete lists.
>>A-a
>>Abgaledit

snip

>>Apap

> And tell us their attitude towards marriage.

First, it is considered good form on usenet to trim a post to the portions
you wish to discuss or amplify. It is considered better form to mark that
text as removed.

Now, which god do you want to discuss? If you can't identify the god/dess
involved, how can you nag or worry over which one does what, & why the
others may not be concerned about it.

Airyaman
Aryaman acccused of introducing marriage
Ataensic also created the world from her corpse.
Bast/Bastet/Pasht
Bes

I think you might be getting the hint. If you want to question any deity's
position on marriage, you have to ask about that deity. You could call it
a show off good faith on your part. You are at least willing to do some of
the work & required reading. If you aren't, I've better ways to waste my
time.

[1-3]

walksalone who never tires of being amused by people that pretend to ask
ponderous questions in the hopes of geting others to make them look good in
their own eyes.

"You know, I've gone to a lot of psychics, and they've told me a lot of
different things, but not one of them has ever told me 'You are an
undercover policewoman here to arrest me.'"
-- New York City undercover policewoman

[duke]

On Thu, 07 Feb 2013 14:13:42 -0800, Jeanne Douglas <hlwd...@NOSPAMgmail.com>
wrote:

>In article <hnr7h8pmphs7a6abo...@4ax.com>,
> duke <duckg...@cox.net> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 07 Feb 2013 08:25:26 -0600, Mitchell Holman <nomailverizon.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >When Did God Get Into the Wedding Business?
>> >Feb. 6, 2013,
>>
>> >Was marriage originally a legal or a religious institution?
>>
>> Religious beyond a shadow of a doubt.
>>
>> >A legal institution, mostly. Marriage developed independently
>> >in hundreds of human civilizations, so it’s difficult to
>> >pinpoint history’s first marriage or even the society that
>> >first conceived of marriage as an institution.
>>
>> Nope, not a marriage. Just a cave man that likes what he sees. And lo and
>> behold, he took what he wanted and 9 months later, a little cave man showed
>> up.
>> Then God told the caveman that he will bless what the caveman likes, and so
>> begins a relationship pleasing to God.
>>
>> And so the first wedding ceremony tool place a few million years later in a
>> formalized fashion..

>Wow. dukie thinks mankind is millions of years old.

What are you defining as "man"kind? The concept of a "licensed" wedding is just
a few hundred years old.

The dukester, American - American
********************************************
You can't fix stupid.
********************************************

[duke]

On Fri, 08 Feb 2013 00:52:08 +0000, Smiler <Youm...@JoeKing.com> wrote:

>On Thu, 07 Feb 2013 14:13:42 -0800, Jeanne Douglas wrote:
>
>> In article <hnr7h8pmphs7a6abo...@4ax.com>,
>> duke <duckg...@cox.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, 07 Feb 2013 08:25:26 -0600, Mitchell Holman <nomailverizon.net>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> >
>>> >When Did God Get Into the Wedding Business? Feb. 6, 2013,
>>>
>>> >Was marriage originally a legal or a religious institution?
>>>
>>> Religious beyond a shadow of a doubt.
>>>
>>> >A legal institution, mostly. Marriage developed independently in
>>> >hundreds of human civilizations, so it’s difficult to pinpoint
>>> >history’s first marriage or even the society that first conceived of
>>> >marriage as an institution.
>>>
>>> Nope, not a marriage. Just a cave man that likes what he sees. And lo
>>> and behold, he took what he wanted and 9 months later, a little cave man
>>> showed up.
>>> Then God told the caveman that he will bless what the caveman likes, and
>>> so begins a relationship pleasing to God.
>>>
>>> And so the first wedding ceremony tool place a few million years later
>>> in a formalized fashion..
>>
>> Wow. dukie thinks mankind is millions of years old.
>

>I see no evidence of thought from puke. Belief, yes...thought, no.

And I'm still your intellectual master.

[duke]

On Thu, 07 Feb 2013 21:21:51 -0600, Uncle Vic <so...@noway.com> wrote:

>Jeanne Douglas <hlwd...@NOSPAMgmail.com> wrote in
>news:hlwdjsd2-9488A1...@news.giganews.com:

>
>> In article <hnr7h8pmphs7a6abo...@4ax.com>,
>> duke <duckg...@cox.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, 07 Feb 2013 08:25:26 -0600, Mitchell Holman
>>> <nomailverizon.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >When Did God Get Into the Wedding Business?
>>> >Feb. 6, 2013,
>>>
>>> >Was marriage originally a legal or a religious institution?
>>>
>>> Religious beyond a shadow of a doubt.
>>>
>>> >A legal institution, mostly. Marriage developed independently
>>> >in hundreds of human civilizations, so it�s difficult to
>>> >pinpoint history�s first marriage or even the society that
>>> >first conceived of marriage as an institution.
>>>
>>> Nope, not a marriage. Just a cave man that likes what he sees. And
>>> lo and behold, he took what he wanted and 9 months later, a little
>>> cave man showed up.
>>> Then God told the caveman that he will bless what the caveman likes,
>>> and so begins a relationship pleasing to God.
>>>
>>> And so the first wedding ceremony tool place a few million years
>>> later in a formalized fashion..
>>
>> Wow. dukie thinks mankind is millions of years old.

>He thinks Noah forged the Flood millions of years ago.

Forged?

[walksalone]

Pete <d...@kn.app> wrote in news:jB8Rs.121647$EO2....@newsfe04.iad:

> On Thu, 07 Feb 2013 21:35:26 -0600, Uncle Vic wrote:
>
>> Pete <d...@kn.app> wrote in news:WAZQs.83318$532....@newsfe03.iad:

snip

>>> There is only one Messiah.
>>
>> Emmanuel? Quezalcoatl? Horus? Krishna? Dyoneseus?

> That is sort of dumb, you asked a question, got an answer, and then
> list others?

All of the above share a characteristic of your missing messiah, They
died & resurected. All may have been, depending on your criteria,
considered saviours of humanity.

EMMANUEL m Biblical, French, English Pronounced: e man WEL (French),
e MAN yoo el (English) Means "God is with us" in Hebrew. This was the
foretold name of the Messiah in the Old Testament.

Not the xian messiah then. Or else wrong prophesy.


Queazatol
http://www.puertovallarta.net/fast_facts/quetzalcoatl-feathered-
serpent.php

Horus
http://www.egyptianmyths.net/horus.htm

Krishna
http://www.sanatansociety.org/hindu_gods_and_goddesses/krishna.htm

Dyoneseus
http://www.pantheon.org/articles/d/dionysus.html

You are not very familiar with the gods of humanity, but then you already
have the answer so why should you fash yourself over the gods?


walksalone who has a suspicion that Pete will soon join the other great
losers from the alt.atheism halls of shame, Bleatwiright, iben, j etc.
Truely they are powerful in their own opinion, but the abyss doesn't
care.


alt.atheism FAQ
http://www.skepticfiles.org/atheist/atheistf.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alt.atheism
http://www.bookcase.com/library/faq/archive/atheism/faq.html
<http://www.livinginternet.com/u/mod_charter_or_FAQ/alt/alt.atheism.moder
ated.txt>
http://www.textfiles.com/internet/FAQ/faqathi1.txt
http://www.all-science-fair-
projects.com/science_fair_projects_encyclopedia/Alt.atheism

Related sites

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/nontheism/atheism/index.html

[walksalone]

Pete <d...@kn.app> wrote in news:2H8Rs.55732$On7...@newsfe16.iad:

> On Fri, 8 Feb 2013 11:47:57 +0000 (UTC), walksalone wrote:

Unmarked text removal reinserted.
********************************
Newsgroups:
infernal:alt.christnet.christianlife,alt.bible.prophecy,alt.atheism,alt.c
hristnet.theology
Subject: Re: When Did God Get Into the Wedding Business?
To: Pete <d...@kn.app>
Followup-To: alt.christnet.christianlife,alt.atheism

Pete <d...@kn.app> wrote in news:WAZQs.83318$532....@newsfe03.iad:


Warning to aa, yes, those lists again.

> On Thu, 07 Feb 2013 18:20:36 -0800, Christopher A. Lee wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 7 Feb 2013 17:54:11 -0800, Pete <d...@kn.app> wrote:
>>
>>>On Thu, 07 Feb 2013 08:25:26 -0600, Mitchell Holman wrote:
>>>
snip, thank gosh.


>> What God?
>>
>
> There is only one God.

As far as you know, which is beging to look like extremely little when it
comes to humanity's gods.
Now, pick out your god from the following incomplete lists.
A-a

snip

Zapotlantenan
Zarpanitu(m)
Zemi


>> Where did you demonstrate its real world existence, and its
>> applicability to everybody?

> It? there is no it? Only a fool says in their heart, there is no God.

4:17 Guard thy foot when thou goest to the house of God, and be ready to
hearken: it is better than when fools give sacrifices; for they know not
that they do evil.

snip

*************************************************************

>> Fine clothes may disguise, but silly words will disclose a fool.
>

> So you can afford expensive clothes, big deal.


MOF, no I can't.
But I can afford to use the library, on line sources, & books in order
to learn to evaluate claims, such as your pretensions, & think for
myself. & you, care to tell the audience how you spend your time & money
in ways that help, not claim to, but help, others?

walksalone who suspects that not only is Pete full of himself, but rancid
hot air as well.


Back in my early childhood, I had learned that God
doesn't fight on any army's side. So there was little point
in praying. Nonetheless, before every battle prayers
were read, all kinds of incantations were recited, staged
by all sorts of preachers. We attended these ceremonies,
and I saw how the soldiers stood in place, as though
they couldn't believe their ears. . . . I couldn't believe
it either, but I counted for nothing. . . . Since then, I've
given up any belief in God, in a "light" that leads us, or
anything of this sort. Goethe has said, "If God created
this world, then he should review his plan."
�Marlene Dietrich

[walksalone]

Pete <d...@kn.app> wrote in news:RK8Rs.218614$pV4.1...@newsfe21.iad:

> On Fri, 8 Feb 2013 13:47:40 +0000 (UTC), walksalone wrote:

Unmarked text restored, letr's see what Pete does not want to try to
address?

*************************************************************************

*******************************************************

>> walksalone who never tires of being amused by people that pretend to
>> ask ponderous questions in the hopes of geting others to make them
>> look good in their own eyes.
>

> Then why your response to me? I never asked the questions. Seems
> hypocritical to me.

Are you so arrogant that you asume that when you piss on the carpet, no
one will notice & no one will rub your nose in it? It appears you
actually are. Be that as it may, anyone can respond to you, or ignore
you. You have no special privalages here.
As to questions, it is a result of being somewhat educated. I am not
restricted to only one line of thought.
Don't like it, feel free to hit the door. Or continue to not realise how
embarrassed you should be by pretending to know what you can't show.

BTW, the response was to a question asked by Steve. Or are you steve as
well? Not that it matters, I don't think so.


walksalone who has to conclude, not only does Pete not understand why he
is being laughed at, but wants the glory of others as well. Or he is as
incompetent with a newsreader as explaining, providing edvidence, or even
verifiable evidence.
I wish I could say I'm surprised, but I don't like to tell lies. Not
even the white ones.

Try reading some of the following to begin to understand, your opinion is
unfounded when it comes to the knowledge you can only pretend to display
in regards to your fractured fairy tale.

AASOR Annual of the American Schools of Oriental Research
AJSL American Journal of Semitic Languages
AOAT Alter Orient und Altes Testament
�AT �gypten und Altes Testament
ABD Anchor Bible Dictionary 6 volumes (Ed. D.N. Freedman; New York:
Doubleday, 1992).
ABL Harry Frank & Roger Boraas, Atlas of the Bible Lands
(Maplewood: Hammond, 1990 - revised edition).
AEO Ancient Egyptian Onomastica I - II
AJA American Journal of Archaeology
�L �gypten und Levant / Egypt and the Levant (Vienna)
ANET James B. Pritchard, Ancient Near Eastern Texts Relating to the Old
Testament (Princeton: Princeton University Press, 1969 - 3rd edition).
AOS American Oriental Society
ARAB D.D. Luckenbill, Ancient Records of Assyria and Babylon (2
volumes Chicago: The University of Chicago Press, 1926-1927)
ARCE American Research Center in Egypt
ASAE Annales du service des antiquit�s de l'�gypte (Cairo)
ASOR American Schools of Oriental Research
BA Biblical Archaeologist
BAR Biblical Archaeology Review
BASOR Bulletin of the American Schools of Oriental Research
BES Bulletin of the Egyptian Seminar
BIFAO Bulletin de l'Institut Fran�ais d'Arch�ologie Orientale (Cairo)
BN Biblische Notizen (Bamberg)
BZAW Beiheften zur Zeitschrift f�r �gyptische Sprache und
Altertumskunde
CAD The Assyrian Dictionary of the Oriental Institute of the University
of Chicago (eds. I. J Gelb, et. al.: Chicago: The University of Chicago
Press, 1956 to present)
CBQ Catholic Biblical Quarterly
Cd'� Chronique d'�gypte
CDME R.O. Faulkner, Concise Dictionary of Middle Egyptian (Oxford: Oxford
University Press, 1962)
CRIPEL Cahiers de recherches de l'institut de Papyrologie et
d'�gyptologie de Lille
DE Discussions in Egyptology (Oxford)
DLE Leonard H. Lesko, A Dictionary of Late Egyptian 5 volumes (Berkeley:
BC Scribe, 1982-1990)
DtrH Deuteronomistic History or Historian
EA El-Amarna = Amarna Letters
EEF Egypt Exploration Fund
EES Egypt Exploration Society
GM G�ttinger Miszellen
HAB The Harper Atlas of the Bible (Ed. J.B. Pritchard; New York, Harper
& Row, 1987)
HTR Harvard Theological Review
IDB Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible 4 volumes & supplement (Ed.
G.A. Buttrick; Nashville: Abingdon Press, 1962 & 1976)
IEJ Israel Exploration Journal
IFAO Institut fran�ais d'arch�ologie orientale
ISBE International Standard Bible Encyclopedia (Ed. G.W. Bromiley: Grand
Rapids:Eerdmans, 1979-1988)
JANES Journal of the Ancient Near Eastern Society
JAOS Journal of the American Oriental Society
JARCE Journal of the American Research Center in Egypt
JEA Journal of Egyptian Archaeology
JETS Journal of the Evangelical Theological Society
JB Jerusalem Bible
JBL Journal of Biblical Literature
JNES Journal of Near Eastern Studies
JSOT Journal for the Study of the Old Testament
JSS Journal of Semitic Studies
JSSEA Journal of the Society for the Study of Egyptian Antiquities
JTC Journal for Theology and the Church
LXX Septuagint (Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible)
KB Ludwig Koehler & Walter Baumgartner, Lexicon in Veteris Testamenti
Libros (Leiden: Brill, 1985).
KJV King James Version
KRI Kenneth Kitchen, Ramesside Inscriptions, Historical and
Biographical 7 Volumes (Oxford: Blackwell, 1968- )
LEM Alan H. Gardiner, Late Egyptian Miscellanies (Bibliotheca
Aegyptiaca; Brussels: �dition de la Fondation �gyptologique Reine
Elizabeth, 1937).
Les. Kurt Sethe, Aegyptische Lesest�cke zum Gebrauch in akademischen
Unterricht (Leipzig: J.C. Hinrichs'sche, 1928).
MBA Yohanan Aharoni & Michael Avi-Yonah, The MacmillanBible Atlas (New
York: Macmillan, 1977 - revised edition).
MIFAO Memoires de l'institut fran�ais d'arch�ologie Orientale
MMJ Metropolitan Museum Journal
MT Masoretic Text
NAS New American Standard Bible
NBD New Bible Dictionary (Ed. J.D. Douglas; Downers Grove/Leister:
InterVarsity Press, 1982 - revised edition)
NEAEHL New Encyclopedia of Archaeological Excavations in the Holy Land
4 Volumes (Ed. Ephriam Stern; New York: Simon & Schuster, 1993).
NEB New English Bible
NIV New International Version
OBA Herbert G. May, Oxford Bible Atlas (London/New York: Oxford
University Press, 1974).
OBO Orbis Biblicus et Orientalis (Freiberg)
PEQ Palestine Exploration Quarterly
PSBA Proceedings of the Society of Biblical Archaeology
RITA K.A. Kitchen, Ramesside Inscriptions Translated and Annotated: Notes
and Comments 7 Volumes (Oxford: Blackwell, 1993-).
RB Adriaan de Buck, Egyptian Readingbook (Leiden: Nederlands
Instituut voor het Nabije Oosten, 1970 - 3rd edition).
RSV Revised Standard Version
RV Revised Version
SAK Studien zur Alt�gyptischen Kultur
SJOT Scandanavian Journal of Old Testament
TB Tyndale Bulletin (Cambridge)
TDOT Theological Dictionary of the Old Testament (Eds. G.J. Botterweck &
Helmer Ringgren; Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1974-)
TLZ Theologische Zeitschrift
Urk. I Kurt Sethe, Urkunden des Alten Reich (Leipzig:
Hinrichs'sche, 1933)
Urk. IV Kurt Sethe, Urkunden der 18. Dynastie 4 volumes (Berlin:
Akademie-Verlag,1961).
VA Varia Aegyptiaca (San Antonio)
VT Vetus Testamentum
VTS Vetus Testamentum Supplements
Wb Adolf Erman & Hermann Grapow, W�rterbuch der �gyptischen Sprache 5
volumes (Leipzig: J.C. Hinrichs'sche, 1926-1931).
Z�S Zeitschrift f�r �gyptische Sprache und Altertumskunde
ZAW Zeitschrift fur die Alttestamentliche Wissenschaft
ZDPV Zeitschrift des deutschen Pal�stina-Vereins

[Christopher A. Lee]

What has that got to do with your claim that there is only one,
imbecile?

[walksalone]

Pete <d...@kn.app> wrote in news:8R8Rs.86560$LS5....@newsfe10.iad:

> On Fri, 8 Feb 2013 10:50:37 +0000 (UTC), walksalone wrote:

unmarked text restored, poor Pete. Not everyone forgets more than he
hopes.
********************************************************

*************************************************************************
*

>> walksalone who suspects none of the above will appeal to Pete,
>

> Correct.
>
> Don't need to, the fact that you are fighting against God is proof

Pointing out your silly pretensions is not fighting against your god.
I've no need to, nor doeds anyone else. I spent 20 years of my life
helping insure that some of the mentally handicapped were free to believe
as they wish, as long As they kept it to appropriate venues. I realise
you are clueless about what that means, but there you are.

> enough, or you are even dumber than the believers wasting your time
> against something that does not exist. LOL

Because I don't believe your fractured fairy tales gods exist, how can I
fight them? Don't you get tired of chaseing your tail? Silly question,
of course you don't. After all, it's the reason you are here.

walksalone who will moniter Pete's flights of fancy for now. It's
unusual to encounter one so ignorant, but not unusal as it should be.

The only difference between God and Adolf Hitler is that God is more
proficient at genocide."
Author unklown to me.

[walksalone]

Pete <d...@kn.app> wrote in news:XY8Rs.55733$On7....@newsfe16.iad:

> On Fri, 08 Feb 2013 07:10:10 -0600, Mitchell Holman wrote:
>
>> Pete <d...@kn.app> wrote in news:HJ1Rs.9910$Sq4....@newsfe14.iad:
>>
>>> On Thu, 07 Feb 2013 21:18:41 -0600, Mitchell Holman wrote:
>>>
>>>> Pete <d...@kn.app> wrote in news:mvZQs.87807$uU.3...@newsfe11.iad:
>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, 7 Feb 2013 20:07:14 -0600, L. Raymond wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Pete wrote:

snip

>>> And.....forever you shall roast in the Lake of fire and brimstone
made
>>> for the devil and his angels unless you repent. God is a Just God.
>>
>> Really?
>>
>> Your god goes thru Egypt killing all the
>> first born children and you call that "just"?
>

> Yes. Are you a Jew hater or similar?
> Were not the Egyptians killing all the male babies?

According to history, the Egytpian vacation & the exodus never happened.
But that did not stop the priesthood of Judea from pretending it did.

walksalone who realises that Pete never heard that before, & wouldn't
know where to go to show any other reaon to believe otherwise.

The heroes of the Hebrew text, as they really were supposedly acting.

Absalom--ordered killings (2 Sam. 13:28-29 RSV) and had sex in the open
(2 Sam. 16:22 RSV);
Amon--raped his sister, Tamar (2 Sam. 13:11-14 RSV);
Abimelech--killed a city's inhabitants (Jud. 9:45 RSV); and murdered
wantonly (Jud. 9:5);
Ehud--murdered king Eglon (Jud. 3:21-22 RSV);
Elijah--committed murder (1 Kings 18:40);
Elisha--lied (2 Kings 6:19), told a man a lie (2 Kings 8:10 RSV), cursed
42 small boys to be torn apart for mocking his bald head (2 Kings 2:23-24
RSV);
Gideon--killed (Jud. 8:16:17 the Living Bible), murdered prisoners (Jud.
8:21 RSV), engaged in polygamy (Jud. 8:30);
Issac--lied (Gen. 26:6-7 and attempted to sacrifice his wife to save
himself (Gen. 26:9);
Jacob--swindled Esau out of his birthright (Gen. 25:31-33 RSV), cheated
and lied (Gen. 27:19, 30:40-43 RSV) and lied to Rachel (Gen. 29:12);
Jehoida--ordered a murder (2 Kings 11:15-16 RSV);
Jehu--killed (Kings 9:24, 27, 10:11, 17), ordered killings (2 Kings 10:6-
7, 14, 25 RSV), and deceptively lied (2 Kings 10:18-19);
Jephthah--slaughtered people (Jud. 11:33), and killed his own daughter
(Jud. 11:39 RSV);
Jeremiah--lied (Jer. 38:24-27 NIV);
Joab--killed (2 Sam. 3:27, 18:14, 20:10);
Jonathan--killed (1 Sam. 14:13-14 NASB), and lied (1 Sam. 20:28);
Joseph--deceived his brothers (Gen. 42:7 NASB) and committed nepotism
(Gen. 47:11 RSV);
Joshua--killed and slaughtered without letup (Joshua 6:21, 8:25-28, 10:1,
20, 26-28, 30, 32-33, 35, 37, 39-41, 17-18, 21, 12:7), murdered prisoners
(Josh. 8:29), and hamstrung horses, (Josh. 11:9 RSV);
Laban--lied (Gen. 29:15) and deceived (Gen. 29:20-25);
Lot--offered his virgin daughters to a crowd (Gen. 19:8);
Samson--killed (Jud. 14:19, 15:8, 15), and had sex with a harlot (Jud.
16:1) and lied to Delilah (Jud. 16:10, 13),
Samuel--murdered (1 Sam. 15:33).
Abraham--told his wife to lie (Gen. 12:13), debauched Hagar, his
maidservant (Gen. 16:4), sent his maidservant and her child into the
wilderness (Gen. 21:14), lied (Gen. 20:2), and married his half-sister
(Gen. 20:11-12);
Saul--used his daughters as a snare (1 Sam. 8:20-21 NIV), ordered
gambling (1 Sam. 14:42), killed (1 Sam. 15:7-8, 20, 22:18-21), stripped
himself and acted unstable (1Sam. 19:24), admitted he sinned, played the
fool and erred (1 Sam.26:21), gave David's wife to another man (1 Sam.
25:44), and transgressed God by consulting a medium and being unfaithful
(1 Chron. 10:13-14 RSV)
Solomon--ordered murders (1 Kings 2:25 RSV, 2:34, 46), tried to kill
Jeroboam (1 Kings 11:40), enslaved people (1 Kings 9:21 RSV), did not
keep God's statutes or covenant (1 Kings 11:11 RSV), did evil (1 Kings
11:6), and lied to his mother (1 Kings 2:20-21 RSV, 2:25).


2 Chron. 30:16 Moses
was the Man of God; yet, he...
murdered an Egyptian (Ex. 2:12),
ordered an armed attack (Num. 31:3, 6),
ordered the murder of prisoners (Num. 31:17),
ordered the keeping of young female prisoners for several reasons (Num.
31:17),
led mass killings of women and children (Deut. 2:34, 3:3, 6),
ordered killings (Deut. 13:15, 20:13),
blasphemously wrote he was a greater prophet than Jesus (Deut. 34:10
NASB),
had a son out of wedlock (Ex. 2:21-22),
and was excluded by God from Canaan for four different reasons:
unbelief (Num 20:12),
rebellion (Num. 27:12-14 RSV),
trespassing (Deut. 13:51-52),
and rash words (Psalm 106:32-33 NIV).


David never doing evil (1 Sam. 25:28), following God fully (1Kings 11:6),
being an angel of God(2 Sam. 19:27), keeping his commandments of
God (1 Kings 3:14), and having a perfect heart with the Lord (1 Kings
15:3)
David version 2.
He killed (1 Sam. 17:50-51 RSV, 18:7, 27, 19:8, 23:5, 30:17, 2 Sam. 8:1,
2, 5, 13),
ordered murders (2 Sam. 1:15, 4:5-12),
ordered prisoners to be killed (2 Sam. 12:2931, 1 Chron. 20:3, 2 Sam.
8:1-2),
committed unprovoked aggression and mass killing (1 Sam. 27:8-11, 2 Sam.
5:20, 25),
gave up seven of Saul's descendants to be killed (2 Sam. 21:1-6, 9),
requested that Joab be killed (1 Kings 2:5-6),
intentionally arranged for Uriah to be killed in order to seize his wife
(2 Sam. 11:14-17),
displeased the Lord (2 Sam. 11:26-27),
impregnated another man's wife, committing adultery in the process (2
Sam. 11:2-5),
* wasn't allowed to build God's house because he was a man of war and
bloodshed (1 Chron. 22:7-8),
lied (1 Sam. 21:1-2, 27:8-10),
told Jonathan to lie (1 Sam. 20:5-6),
admitted he sinned by taking a census (2 Sam. 24:10, 17, 1 Chron. 21: 8,
17)
committed extortion (1 Sam. 25:2-8),
prophesied incorrectly in his heart (1 Sam. 27:1),
sent out a spy (2 Sam. 16:36),
hamstrung horses (2 Sam. 8:4),
locked up 10 concubines for life for no apparent reason (2 Sam. 20:3),
committed bigamy (2 Sam. 3:2-3),
committed polygamy (2 Sam. 5:12),
despised the word of the Lord (2 Sam. 12: 9-11),
admitted he sinned by causing Uriah's death and taking his wife (2 Sam.
12:13-14),
and exposed himself like a pervert (2 Sam. 6:20).

[Christopher A. Lee]

On Fri, 08 Feb 2013 07:10:10 -0600, Mitchell Holman

What kind of mentally ill person threatens people with mythology
he knows they don't believe in the first place, for not believing it?

> Really?
>
> Your god goes thru Egypt killing all the
>first born children and you call that "just"?

Because in their Orwellian newspeak and doublethink, "just" has been
redefined to fit their fundamentalist beliefs - the Bible says its god
is just, therefore anything it does is by definition just.

Too bad they haven't the intelligence to go back to the original
meaning in conversation with non-fundamentalists.

But if they could think at all, let alone outside the box, they would
realise their god is only "real" to Christian and no more real to
anybody else than eg Zeus is to them.

[Christopher A. Lee]

On Fri, 8 Feb 2013 17:29:06 +0000 (UTC), walksalone
<spams...@nerdshack.com> wrote:

>Indeed, there is only one true Judaic messiah, & bubba the bastard child
>who is not from the House of David is not it. Quite possibly, he is
>responsible for the condition of the western world, & its cancer in the
>rest of the world, today. His name is Korash, but you are not likely
>aware of him or his importance. Without him, we would not have had the
>religious hatered we have today.

I googled, but couldn't find anything other than that it is the
Hebraic version of Cyrus, and of course David Koresh.

Do you have any more information, links, etc?

Presumably that is where David Koresh took his name from?

[Don Martin]

Pete <d...@kn.app> wrote:
> On Thu, 07 Feb 2013 18:20:36 -0800, Christopher A. Lee wrote:

<snip>

>>> started for sure under the Jews. Before that
>>> there was no law. It also carries over to the believer.
>>> God
>>
>> What God?
>>
>
> There is only one God, and you are not him.

Or even "you are not he," should you wish to put that in English. Now,
your evidence for this doubtlessly splendid being is? You make the
positive claim, you have the responsibility of demonstrating the truth of
what you have said.

--
aa #2278 Never mind "proof." Where is your evidence?
BAAWA Chief Assistant to the Assistant Chief Heckler
Fidei defensor (Hon. Antipodean)
The Squeeky Wheel: http://home.comcast.net/~drdonmartin/

[Tantum Ergo]

On Feb 7, 9:25 am, Mitchell Holman <nomailverizon.net> wrote:

> When Did God Get Into the Wedding Business?

When He told Adam and Eve to mutiply so they could
populate the earth, that was God wedding business
to speak like those people with a capitalistic mindset
who see opportunity for business as long as the market
demand it.
For us, not every decision is a business decision even
if the market research is inciting.

[Christopher A. Lee]

On Fri, 08 Feb 2013 18:24:58 GMT, Don Martin <drdon...@comcast.net>
wrote:

>Pete <d...@kn.app> wrote:
>> On Thu, 07 Feb 2013 18:20:36 -0800, Christopher A. Lee wrote:
><snip>
>
>>>> started for sure under the Jews. Before that
>>>> there was no law. It also carries over to the believer.
>>>> God
>>>
>>> What God?
>>>
>>
>> There is only one God, and you are not him.
>
>Or even "you are not he," should you wish to put that in English. Now,
>your evidence for this doubtlessly splendid being is? You make the
>positive claim, you have the responsibility of demonstrating the truth of
>what you have said.

One of the things that makes too many believers stupid, is that they
expect everybody else (not just atheists but also members of different
religions and even denominations) to grant their tenets even though it
should e obvious they don't.

If they did there would only be one religion with no separate
denominations and everybody would be a member of it.

[walksalone]

Christopher A. Lee <chrisl...@comcast.net> wrote in
news:f1fah8h4cqej4aq8p...@4ax.com:

> On Fri, 8 Feb 2013 17:29:06 +0000 (UTC), walksalone
> <spams...@nerdshack.com> wrote:

snip

> I googled, but couldn't find anything other than that it is the
> Hebraic version of Cyrus, and of course David Koresh.

Cyrus is the greek version IIRC.

> Do you have any more information, links, etc?

Not yet, or should I say, not handy. I'll get back to you in this same
thread in a while.

> Presumably that is where David Koresh took his name from?

That's my assumption also.

You might try a better search engine, or two.

http://www.metacrawler.com/search/advancedsearch?qc=web

using the terms Jewish history and cyrus the great yeilded

<http://www.rabbiwein.com/Cyrus-the-Great--Great-NonJews-in-Jewish-
History-P667.html>
[A book pitch]

under Cyrus the Great
http://www.cyrusthegreat.net/

walksalone who for a change, has things to do.


ABATIS, n. Rubbish in front of a fort, to prevent the rubbish
outside from molesting the rubbish inside.
Devils dictionary

[Christopher A. Lee]

On Fri, 8 Feb 2013 20:35:27 +0000 (UTC), walksalone

<spams...@nerdshack.com> wrote:

>Christopher A. Lee <chrisl...@comcast.net> wrote in
>news:f1fah8h4cqej4aq8p...@4ax.com:
>
>> On Fri, 8 Feb 2013 17:29:06 +0000 (UTC), walksalone
>> <spams...@nerdshack.com> wrote:
>
>snip
>
>> I googled, but couldn't find anything other than that it is the
>> Hebraic version of Cyrus, and of course David Koresh.
>
>Cyrus is the greek version IIRC.
>
>> Do you have any more information, links, etc?
>
>Not yet, or should I say, not handy. I'll get back to you in this same
>thread in a while.

Thanks.

>> Presumably that is where David Koresh took his name from?
>
>That's my assumption also.
>
>You might try a better search engine, or two.
>
>http://www.metacrawler.com/search/advancedsearch?qc=web
>
>using the terms Jewish history and cyrus the great yeilded
>
><http://www.rabbiwein.com/Cyrus-the-Great--Great-NonJews-in-Jewish-
>History-P667.html>
>[A book pitch]
>
>under Cyrus the Great
>http://www.cyrusthegreat.net/

I hadn't searched further on Cyrus the Great because it hadn't
occurred to me that was whom you meant.

What I found surprised me - we'd done Cyrus in history lessons more
then fifty years ago (first year at secondary school, age 11,
1959-60), and all I remembered was that he was that he was the Persian
conqueror whose empire included much of the then known civilised
world.

But it turns out that the Jews regarded him as the Messiah because he
had released the people of the OT from Babylon.

Which I didn't remember. I can't say whether it was taught and I'd
forgotten it (it was a long time ago), or whether it wasn't taught.

[Christopher A. Lee]

On Fri, 8 Feb 2013 12:59:42 -0800, Pete <d...@kn.app> wrote:

>On Fri, 8 Feb 2013 17:29:07 +0000 (UTC), walksalone wrote:
>
>> Unmarked text restored, letr's see what Pete does not want to try to
>> address?
>

>Your entire text. Which is why I put followups to AA.
>You have provided nothing new, just the same old boring stuff.
>All your gods are demons, gifts to you from satan.
>
>I know the reality of the spiritual and as a result put my Trust in God, He
>gave me His Faith to re-enforce it. Therefore I have no desire to speak
>with you about your beliefs.

???????

>Furthermore, if you were honest with yourself and providing your beliefs
>were true, you would not be wasting your time arguing against nothing,
>especially with nothing. Atheism is dead, scientism replaced it. You are
>out of date. Passe. Old news. Has been.

Get help.

Seriously.

All atheism is, is not being any kind of theist - not just your kind.

Not any kind of belief.

And "Scientism" is a fundamentalist canard.

[Christopher A. Lee]

On Fri, 8 Feb 2013 15:23:10 -0600, "L. Raymond" <badaddress@....com>
wrote:

>Christopher A. Lee wrote:
>
>> I googled, but couldn't find anything other than that it is the
>> Hebraic version of Cyrus, and of course David Koresh.

>>...

>> Presumably that is where David Koresh took his name from?
>

>It is. Back when he was still Vernon Howell, he cut a record in 1987
>meant to raise bail for some of his followers who'd been arrested. He
>used the company "Cyrus Productions" to produce it, the first public
>suggestion of what was coming from him.

I didn't know that.

[walksalone]

Pete <d...@kn.app> wrote in news:5HdRs.59286$_U.4...@newsfe20.iad:

> On Fri, 8 Feb 2013 17:29:07 +0000 (UTC), walksalone wrote:
>
>> Unmarked text restored, letr's see what Pete does not want to try to
>> address?
>

> Your entire text. Which is why I put followups to AA.

Why Pete, such honesty from a wannabe is refreshing. & here I thought
the lack of followups was your way of hiding your incompetence from your
loyal fans on the other groups.

> You have provided nothing new, just the same old boring stuff.

Of course not, I have provided recorded history, history that almost
anyone can verify.

> All your gods are demons, gifts to you from satan.

Which satan woluld that be, the Judaic ones, satan or hasatan, or the
xiann bogeyman, Satan? Do you even know.

> I know the reality of the spiritual and as a result put my Trust in
> God, He gave me His Faith to re-enforce it. Therefore I have no desire
> to speak with you about your beliefs.

Good, because my beliefs have never been discussed ikn detail. Some
minor knowledge has been brought forth, knowledge that you can not
respond to oin a sane manner.
Saddly, all you can do is pretend to speak with authority, authority you
can not display to others that don't believe liars like you.
& yes, you have been lieing, bad enough to atheists, but worse, to
yourself.

BTW, knowingly lieing is not the only lie you can tell, & is xian in
source.

> Furthermore, if you were honest with yourself and providing your

Unlike you, I am bluntly honmest with myself.

> beliefs were true, you would not be wasting your time arguing against
> nothing, especially with nothing. Atheism is dead, scientism replaced
> it. You are out of date. Passe. Old news. Has been.

Well fancy that, it knows high falutin talk, but not how to use it.
This is the way it is. I am comfortable with my beleifs & have one of
the most valuable currencys known to humanity. Peace of mind.
I am not the one pissing on the carpet in other newsgroups, you are.
I'm not the one to advertise my doubts, & pretend they aren't. You are.
& inasmuch as atheism is a passive don't accept claims by the uninformed
about what they think in the way of theology, atheism will exist until
theism is no longer a cancer feeding on humanity.

But don't worry Pete, atheists will continue to laugh at the ignorance
you parade, as they should.

walsalone who has not doubt that Pete thinks of himself as a jolly good
fellow who knows what he can't show. & in his fevered imagination, I'm
sure that's true. In the real world, not so much.

Some of the gods xianity in particular has, b ut doesn't claim.

Amon
Abalam
Adramelech
Agares
Ahriman
Aim
Alal
Allocer
Allu
Amaymon
Amdusias
Ammit
Amy
Andhaka
Andras
Andrealphus
Andromalius
Apep (Apophis)
Aristaqis
Armaros
Armen
Asag
Asakku
Asb'el
Ashtoroth
Asmoday
Astaroth
Asura
AzazelAzaz'el
Baal
Balam
Baraqel
Barbas
Barbatos
Basas'el
Bathin
Bathym
Beal
Beale
Beall
Beball
Beelzebub
Behemoth
Belial
Beleth
Belphegor
Berith
Betryal
Bifrons
Bine
Botis
Buer
Bune
Burikutonu
Badukuk
Caacrinolaas
Caassimolar
Caim
Camio
Carabia
Caym
Cerbere
Cerberus
Charun
Chax
Cimeies
Cimejes
Classyalabolas
Corson
Crocell
Culsu
Curson
Choronzon
Dantalion
Danyul
Decarabia
Djinn
Drudes
Demon Dragon King
Dumah
Elathan
Eligos
Ethniu
Euryale
Familiars
Flavros
Flauros
Focalor
Foraii
Foras
Forcas
Forneus
Forras
Furcas
Furfur
Gaap
Gader'el
Gaki
Gamigin
Glassia-labolis
Glasya-Labolas
Goblins
Gomory
Gorgons
Gremlins
Gremory
Grigori
Grognouef
Gualichu
Gusion
Gusoin
Gusoyn
Guzalu
Haborym
Haagenti
Halphas
Hanan'el
Hylden
Havres
Hauras
Haures
Hiisi/Hiiet
Hiranyaksha
Humbaba/Huwawa
Iblis
Imps
Incubus
Ipes
Ipos
Jikininki
Jinn
Kasadya
Kimaris
Kokb'ael
Koshchei
Labal
Labasu
Lamashtu
Lamia
Lamiai
Legion
Lempo
Leraje
Leraie
Leviathan
Lilin
Lilith
Lillu
Lix Tetrax
Lucifer
Malaphar
Malephar
Malphas
Malthus
Mammon
Mara
Marax
Marbas
Marchosias
Marthim
Mastema
Mathim
Medusa
Melchiresa/Melki-resha
Mephistopheles
Merihem
Molech/Moloch
Morax
Murmur
Mutis
Naberius
Naberus
Naphula
Neqa'el
Ninurta
N�kki
Oni
Onoskelis
Oray
Orcus
Orias
Oriax
Ornias
Orobas
Orobos
Ose
Oso
Paimon
Paimonia
Paymon
Pazuzu
Perkele
Phenex
Pinem'e
Piru
Pithius
Pitua
Procell
Pruflas
Pruslas
Puloman
Purson
Qenna
Rabisu
Rahab
Raiju
Raim
Rangda
Raum
Robin Goodfellow
Ronove
Ronwe
Rum'el
Rumyal
Rusalka
Sabnock
Saleos
Samael
Satan
Scox
Seir
Semyaz
Shax
Shedim
Shedu
Sidragasum
Sipwese'el
Sitri
Sojobo
Sthenno
Stolas
Succubus
Surgat
Tannin
Tengu
Thammuz
Tikbalang (Tik-ba-lang)
Tipua
Tonga-Hiti
Tuchulcha
Tuma'el
Tur'el
Utukku
Uvall
Vadatajs
Valac
Valefar
Vampire
Vanth
Vapula
Vassago
Velns
Vepar
Vephar
Vine
Xaphan
Xezbeth
Yasha
Yeqon
Yeter'el
Zagan
Zepar
Ziminiar

[fasgnadh]

On 8/02/2013 1:25 AM, Mitchell Holman wrote:
> When Did God Get Into the Wedding Business?

From the outset, civilization began 10,000 years ago with religion:

"We used to think agriculture gave rise to cities and later to
writing, art, and religion.
Now the world’s oldest temple suggests the urge to worship sparked
civilization."
-



Apart from brief disruptions from paganism, barbarism, Nihilism,
Fascism, the atheist regimes of the 20th century, Nazism,
..religious societies have continued building and sustaining civilisation.


And of course, we ARE all One, as religions have taught for
millennia and the human genographic project confirmed with
Mitochondrial Eve and the emergence of all modern humans Out of Africa.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_Eve

> Feb. 6, 2013,
>
>
>
> Was marriage originally a legal or a religious institution?

Archeology and anthropology show Religion preceeded, and defined,
Law. It still does in the modern, scientifically advanced, socially
progressive, free, open secular democracies which have been evolved,
IN EVERY CASE, by MAJORITY RELIGIOUS societies.

EVERY atheist state, on the other hand has been a totalitarian tyranny,
terrorising torturing and killing over 80,000,000 people in the short
time (70 years) they existed before FAILING CATASTROPHICALLY!


> A legal institution, mostly.

rubbish, not just humans, but a number of animal species,
have been mating for life since time immemorial!

Please spare us your historically inaccurate and baseless OPINIONS.

> Marriage developed independently
> in hundreds of human civilizations,

All post-dating religion and all inspired and sustained by it.

# From: raven1 <quotht...@nevermore.com>
# Newsgroups: alt.atheism
# Subject: Re: Anyone seen Hysteria, Abu Baker Bashir and Kelsey
Bjarnyard? B^D
# Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 21:15:11 -0500
# Message-ID: <87ttk498t9sueojr7...@4ax.com>
#
# There has never been a "Great, Enduring Atheist Civilization"

Of course not, atheism contains no inherent moral or ethical values,
as the nightmare of EVERY atheist regime in history evidenced.

Even you admit the central role of religion from the EARLIEST times;

> Early Sumerian marriage agreements, which date to the third
> millennium B.C., are among the oldest records relating to marriage.
> The couples swore an oath to a series of deities
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

And there is no evidence of atheism playing any part whatsoever,
which pretty much defines the role of atheism in civilisation.

> There is no indication that someone who violated the marriage agreement
> suffered the eternal wrath of Shamash and Marduk

Why is anyone surprised when religion shows greater compassion than the
prevailing brutality and barbarism of primitive times? After all, it is
the VECTOR for evolving civilisation, as the more reliable recorded
history shows. Religion, particularly the spread of Christianity and
Islam, was central to the creation of the modern Era. Christianity,
since it's adoption by Constantine, replaced paganism across the Roman
Empire, gradually replacing the throwing of Christians to the lions with
the Greatest Commandment. Then, as Christianity was losing it's puff,
(as ALL huuman organisations do) in it's Dark Age, Islamic civilisation
was flowering, reviving the wisdom of the Ancient Greeks, the Hindu
numerals which it would transmit into Europe, replacing the
Roman ones (and thus enabling modern commerce and trade to develop)
and adding it's own contributions in mathematics (Al Gibra,
Al Ghorisme), medicine, chemistry, astronomy, et al.
The influence of Islamic civilisation flowed into Europe via Spain, with
translations from the Arabic on everything from surgery to rules
of war, that triggered a European scientific renaissance.

> The ancient Hebraic take on marriage is difficult to ascertain.

As are most things about early religion, as much of it is lost in time,
until we get ACCURATE recordings of the revelations..
but the modern evolved forms of Judaism, Hinduism, Christianity and
Islam show it's ongoing relevance to humans, no human constructed
ideologies or social structures have shown such resilience, longevity
and usefulness.

Think on it.

> Scholars have argued for years over whether to translate the
> Old Testament word describing a marriage agreement as "contract,"
> which is a simple agreement between two parties, or "covenant,"
> which includes an additional vow to God.

Why do the simple minded think it can only be one of the above?

Marriage is a public committment by a couple, made in the eyes
of the community and God.

As modern life, and it's high rates of marital breakdown and divorce
shows, legality plays little part in keeping a marriage together, it
is the beliefs, attitudes, committment, empathy, consideration, in
short.. the degree to which they follow the SPIRITUAL INJUNCTION
to love and care for one another.. which is central.

Sex will not sustain a marriage forever.. and the Hindu's understood
it's purpose DEEPLY. Tantric sex is often misunderstood in the west
as a form of controlling male orgasm to heighten and extend pleasure,
which it certainly achieves.. but the foundation of the practice is
the that it focuses on the pleasure of one's PARTNER, not oneself.

That simple expression of the Divine Injunction to LOVE one another,
creates much deeper happiness than the selfish lust, hedonism and
selfishness of a materialist society, which CONSUMES sex, as it does
all other commodities.


> One of the difficulties
> is that the Old Testament uses the same word to describe both
> God’s relationship with the Israelites and a husband’s promise
> to his wife.

B^D That is not a 'difficulty, that is an INSIGHT! B^D

RELATIONSHIP is central to Spiritual teachings.
All through the Bible the Old Testament Prophets tell the
people that it is not Blood Sacrifices that God wants,
but the Love, the Hearts of mankind.. it is not compulsion
but an invitation to relationship

The Islamic mystics (Sufis) describe this RELATIONSHIP to God
in precisely the same terms as to the Beloved.

That is the term they use.

And they compare the passion of this faith in the rame terms
as the Majnun (Madness) of Love.

Only those who have experienced the love which sweeps away all
reason, can understand the intimate connection being described.

In the Romeo and Juliet tale of the Persians, "Layla and Majnun",
Majnun is found sitting in the dust, sifting it between his fingers..

His friends, fearful for his sanity ask what he is doing..

"I am searching for my Beloved."

"In the DUST?"

" I seek her everywhere "


For the Sufis and for the mystics of all religious traditions,
that also describes the relationship with God.. it is not the
tired, sad notion of mere OBEDIENCE, but the flowing of ones own
heart into something immense, powerful and utterly overwhelming.

When Jesus washed the feet of his disciples, he modelled the way
every parent loves a child, and every lover seeks to please their
beloved. selfless love, that fulfills self.

How sad for the atheistic materialists, who argue that only the
physical world is real.

How can their Spirits SOAR, when they deny thay have one.

> Some ancient Hebrew writers explicitly analogized
> those two commitments, and, of course, the Ten Commandments
> mention God’s aversion to adultery.

Well, be honest, How do you feel when your boyfriend/girlfriend
cheats on you.

In the 60's Free Love was regarded as 'cool', until your partner did it,
and then.. surprise surprise.. people felt hurt, wounded, they were
left out, even if only for a night, and therefore NOT as important, or
loved, as they would wish to be.

It is NOT that one can COMPEL, by law or by guilt, or obligation, that
someone is truly committed to another, but that it appears to be a basic
desire of humans, and jealousy really is a curse.

Thus it is NOT about posessing the Beloved,
but about finding the Beloved and BEING the Beloved.


He who bends to himself a joy
doth the winged life destroy
but he who kisses it as it flies
lives in eternity's sunrise.

> However, like the Sumerian marriage agreements,

Yawn, what can you tell about Romeo and Juliet by
READING THEIR MARRIAGE CONTRACT that is in any way important? B^p

> documents describing ancient Jewish marriages
> are mostly lists of legal obligations and consequences and rarely
> contain spiritual language.

The point is, you poor loveless idiot, that mere DOCUMENTS
can never DESCRIBE a relationship.

To think they can is true madness.

> It’s likely that the idea of marriage
> as a sacred union involving God developed over time among ancient
> Jews,

Yes. It evolves as mankind does, as it's understanding grows.

IS this a surprise to anyone?

The development of human civilisation is analogous to that of
the human individual, initially there is no formal 'teaching'
the infant learns to WALK for example, by trail and error.
The child is watched over by a loving parent, who will, if the
infant goes to stick a fork in the power outlet, simply smack it's
hand away with a loud "NO!"
This sort of simple, MEMORABLE, - Old Testament - approach is
suitable for a pre-literate infant, or society.

LAter as the child, or society matures, you can EXPLAIN electricity
and why you shouldn't complete an electrical circuit.

The love of the parent REMAINS CONSTANT, it's method of INSTRUCTION
alters as the student evolves and grows.

This is called Progressive Revelation, it's why prophets and Messengers
of God appear at historical intervals over time, re-emphasing the
Eternal Verities (love God by loving one another) and some social laws
(dietry, marriage, blood sacrifice not required etc) may change as
humanity evolves and matures.

Jews, Christians, Muslims, Bahai, Sikhs all agree they worship the One
God, the message of Love is re-iterated because ALL human institutions
atrophy, may become corrupted over time, as Jesus pointedly demonstrated
when the Religious Authorities of his time CONDEMNED HIM, but as he also
pointedly declared, he came, NOT to change the Law and the Prophets, but
to FULFIL them.

Nothing has endured, or has been of such enduring significance and
efficacy, as the great world religions.. despite the imperfections
which exist in ANY human organisation, their contribution to human
civilisation is undeniable..

I really don't understand how atheists, of all people, who have never
created even a single secular democracy, let alone a great and enduring
civilisation, dare to mock the far greater achievements of religion.







--


"At the dawn of the 20th Century approximately one half of the world's
population identified itself as either Muslim, Catholic, Protestant,
Hindu or Buddhist, and 100 years of secularism, and technological
advancement, and scientific progress later and that number is now
two thirds.

So, for those of you who enjoy beginning coffee shop
conversations with "The Death of God" .. it's time to change
the subject! It's time to talk about something else , because
it's not happening at all.

People are becoming more religious, not less religious,
and religion itself is also evolving"



- Dr Reza Aslan

http://www.abc.net.au/rn/bigideas/stories/2010/2929354.htm


---------

alt.atheism FAQ:

http://altatheismfaq.blogspot.com/


http://groups.google.com.au/group/alt.atheism/msg/7c0978c14fd4ed37?hl=en&dmode=source



"Atheism is the natural and inseparable part of Communism."
-Vladimir Ilyich Ulyanov (Lenin)

"We must combat religion"
-Vladimir Ilyich Ulyanov (Lenin)

“Down with religion and long live atheism;
the dissemination of atheist views is our chief task!”
- Vladimir Ilyich Ulyanov (Lenin)

"Our program necessarily includes the propaganda of atheism."
- Vladimir Ilyich Ulyanov (Lenin)



http://www.atheistnexus.org/photo/2182797:Photo:8290?context=latest

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- Lenin

http://www.atheistnexus.org/photo/2182797:Photo:17475?context=latest

http://www.c96trading.com/Nagant_NKVD_300h.jpg


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/telegraph/multimedia/archive/01001/Tsar-family_1001874c.jpg

[fasgnadh]

On 9/02/2013 9:10 AM, fasgnadh wrote:
> On 8/02/2013 1:25 AM, Mitchell Holman wrote:
>> When Did God Get Into the Wedding Business?
>
>
> From the outset, civilization began 10,000 years ago with religion:
>
> "We used to think agriculture gave rise to cities and later to
> writing, art, and religion.

> Now the world�s oldest temple suggests the urge to worship sparked
> civilization."

- http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2011/06/gobekli-tepe/mann-text

>> God�s relationship with the Israelites and a husband�s promise

>> mention God�s aversion to adultery.

>
> Well, be honest, How do you feel when your boyfriend/girlfriend
> cheats on you.
>
> In the 60's Free Love was regarded as 'cool', until your partner did it,
> and then.. surprise surprise.. people felt hurt, wounded, they were
> left out, even if only for a night, and therefore NOT as important, or
> loved, as they would wish to be.
>
> It is NOT that one can COMPEL, by law or by guilt, or obligation, that
> someone is truly committed to another, but that it appears to be a basic
> desire of humans, and jealousy really is a curse.
>
> Thus it is NOT about posessing the Beloved,
> but about finding the Beloved and BEING the Beloved.
>
>
> He who bends to himself a joy
> doth the winged life destroy
> but he who kisses it as it flies
> lives in eternity's sunrise.
>
> > However, like the Sumerian marriage agreements,
>
> Yawn, what can you tell about Romeo and Juliet by
> READING THEIR MARRIAGE CONTRACT that is in any way important? B^p
>
>> documents describing ancient Jewish marriages
>> are mostly lists of legal obligations and consequences and rarely
>> contain spiritual language.
>
> The point is, you poor loveless idiot, that mere DOCUMENTS
> can never DESCRIBE a relationship.
>
> To think they can is true madness.
>

> > It�s likely that the idea of marriage

[Mitchell Holman]

Pete <d...@kn.app> wrote in news:XY8Rs.55733$On7....@newsfe16.iad:

>> Really?
>>
>> Your god goes thru Egypt killing all the
>> first born children and you call that "just"?
>

> Yes. Are you a Jew hater or similar?
> Were not the Egyptians killing all the male babies?

Nope.

Don't you know your own Bible?




Thus saith the LORD, About midnight will I go out into
the midst of Egypt. And all the firstborn in the land of
Egypt shall die, from the first born of Pharaoh that sitteth
upon his throne, even unto the firstborn of the maidservant
that is behind the mill; and all the firstborn of beasts.
Exodus 11:4

[Smiler]

On Fri, 08 Feb 2013 07:25:34 -0800, Pete wrote:

> On Fri, 08 Feb 2013 01:47:46 -0800, Jeanne Douglas wrote:
>
>> In article <7L1Rs.121638$EO2....@newsfe04.iad>, Pete <d...@kn.app>
>> wrote:

>>
>>> On Thu, 07 Feb 2013 21:26:42 -0600, Uncle Vic wrote:
>>>
>>>> Pete <d...@kn.app> wrote in news:mvZQs.87807$uU.3...@newsfe11.iad:
>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, 7 Feb 2013 20:07:14 -0600, L. Raymond wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Pete wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Slate would never have a clue.
>>>>>>> Regarding contracts an argument would then be made whether written
>>>>>>> or oral and be endless.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As to a marriage before God, started for sure under the Jews.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Really? You're certain neither the Hindus, Sumerians, Greeks,
>>>>>> Roman, Egyptians nor Chinese ever invoked gods at their ceremonies,
>>>>>> all of which would have predated or been contemporaneous with Jewish
>>>>>> civilization of a few millenia ago? How do you know that "for
>>>>>> sure"?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> The question was about God, not gods.
>>>>

>>>> There's a difference?
>>>
>>> That is obvious.
>>
>> Not really. Since there's no evidence for any of them.
>
>
> The fact that you are fighting against God is proof enough, or you are

> even dumber than the believers wasting your time against something that
> does not exist. LOL

Thanks for your admission that your god doesn't exist.

--
Smiler,

The godless one. a.a.# 2279

All gods are tailored to order. They're made to

exactly fit the prejudices of their believers.

[Smiler]

On Fri, 08 Feb 2013 07:14:16 -0800, Pete wrote:

> On Thu, 07 Feb 2013 18:48:27 -0800, Christopher A. Lee wrote:

>
>> On Thu, 7 Feb 2013 18:40:50 -0800, Pete <d...@kn.app> wrote:
>>
>>>On Thu, 07 Feb 2013 18:20:36 -0800, Christopher A. Lee wrote:
>>>

<snip>

>>>> What God?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>There is only one God.
>>
>> There are thousands, and they're all merely religious belief objects -
>> including yours.

>>
>>>> Where did you demonstrate its real world existence, and its
>>>> applicability to everybody?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>It? there is no it? Only a fool says in their heart, there is no God.
>>

>> The stupid theist insults by proxy, hiding behind his mythology.
>>
>> Again, where did you demonstrate its existence in the real world before
>> rudely and stupidly presuming it?

>>
>>>>> started for sure under the

>>>>> Jews. Before that
>>>>>there was no law. It also carries over to the believer. God
>>>>
>>>> What God?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>There is only one God, and you are not him.
>>

>> Prove it or keep your bullshit to yourself, imbecile.
>>
>>
> Don't need to, the fact that you are fighting against God

And the fact that you're fighting against leprechauns shows what?

> is proof enough,
> or you are even dumber than the believers wasting your time against
> something that does not exist. LOL

Thanks for your admission that your supposed god character doesn't exist.

>
>>>> Where did you demonstrate its real world existence, and its
>>>> applicability to everybody?
>>>>
>>>>

>>>I do not demonstrate any "its". Nor any accountability to "its"
>>
>> Translation: you can't.
>>
>>>>> allowed divorce under restriction, to the Jews because of the
>>>>> hardness
>>>>>of their hearts. Those who divorce today often have the same hardness
>>>>>of heart. Sometimes both parties, sometimes one.
>>>>>
>>>>>The accepted legal divorces is when one or the other commit adultery,
>>>>>and if someone came to Christ
>>>>
>>>> What Christ?

>>>>
>>>>
>>>There is only one Messiah.
>>

>> No, moron. 2,000 years ago Messiah wannabes were a dime a dozen. And
>> even if there actually were an historical Jesus, he was not the Messiah
>> - that would have been somebody who freed Judea from Roman occupation.

>>
>>>> Where did you demonstrate its real world existence, and its
>>>> applicability to everybody?
>>>

>>>It is not my responsibility to "its" demonstration.
>>
>> Yes it is, when you beg the question by rudely and stupidly talk about
>> it outside your religion.
>>
>>>>> as a believer and the other party could not or
>>>>>would not stay married to them then they were free to remarry.

>>>
>>>However, your freudian slip did suggest, One God. Good show.
>>

>> Stop lying.

[Olrik]

Well, aren't we glad to have fasgnadh, our own a.a. little wedding
counselor!

Here's fasgnadh's favorite atheist Wedding Reception! Behold:

-
Table Antipasti platter
Marinated grilled vegetables
Mozzarella & Avocado
Roasted vine cherry tomatoes
Marinated olives
Rocket & parmesan salad
Ciabatta with olive oil & balsamic vinegar
-
Chargrilled piri piri chicken with roasted red & yellow peppers
Seared salmon, asparagus & new potato salad with herbs & mustard dressing
-
Couscous salad with aubergine, courgette, sun dried tomato & basil
-
Rocket, radicchio, Gorgonzola & crispy bacon salad
Red & yellow plum tomato salad with coriander & basil
French bean salad with roasted red onions
Selection of breads
-
Pavlova with fresh fruits & cream
Mango, melon & grape salad with raspberry coulis
Tea & coffee

--
Olrik
aa #1981
EAC Chief Food Inspector, Bacon Division

[harry k]

On Feb 7, 11:27 pm, Steve Hayes <hayes...@telkomsa.net> wrote:
> On Thu, 7 Feb 2013 21:41:09 -0800 (PST), harry k <turn...@q.com> wrote:
> >On Feb 7, 7:15 pm, Steve Hayes <hayes...@telkomsa.net> wrote:
> >> On Thu, 7 Feb 2013 07:12:15 -0800 (PST), harry k <turn...@q.com> wrote:
> >> >On Feb 7, 6:58 am, Mitchell Holman <nomailverizon.net> wrote:
> >> >> Steve Hayes <hayes...@telkomsa.net> wrote innews:oaf7h85ne7v6am7qj...@4ax.com:

>
> >> >> > On Thu, 07 Feb 2013 08:25:26 -0600, Mitchell Holman

> >> >> > <nomailverizon.net> wrote:
>
> >> >> >>When Did God Get Into the Wedding Business?

> >> >> >>Feb. 6, 2013,
>
> >> >> > In the Garden of Eden
>
> >> >>    No wedding ceremony that I can find there.
>
> >> >Not even a hint of a mention of one.
>
> >> What are your criteria for a "wedding ceremony"?
>
> >> Does a wedding need a "ceremony"?
> >> --
> >> Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
> >> Blog:http://khanya.wordpress.com
> >> E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
>
> >Do you _really_ need an explanation of what a "wedding ceremony" is?
>
> No, but I think you do.
>

Well, then why don't you provide one?

Harry K

[Steve Hayes]

Because I have yet to be convinced that a wedding needs a "ceremony".

I already provided an explanation in a link. You can read it if you need one.

[walksalone]

Pete <d...@kn.app> wrote in news:lUkRs.34779$H22....@newsfe13.iad:

> On Sat, 09 Feb 2013 00:13:58 +0000, Smiler wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 08 Feb 2013 07:14:16 -0800, Pete wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, 07 Feb 2013 18:48:27 -0800, Christopher A. Lee wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Thu, 7 Feb 2013 18:40:50 -0800, Pete <d...@kn.app> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On Thu, 07 Feb 2013 18:20:36 -0800, Christopher A. Lee wrote:
>>>>>

Followup reset, wouldn't want Pete's audience to miss a chance to join
in. Not to mention, followups do not drop the message from the list of
newsgroups in the header. Not what a followup is for. Another thing
Pete is likely unable to properly define.

Snip

>> And the fact that you're fighting against leprechauns shows what?
>>
>>> is proof enough,
>>> or you are even dumber than the believers wasting your time against
>>> something that does not exist. LOL
>>
>> Thanks for your admission that your supposed god character doesn't
>> exist.
>>
>

> Poor attempt at a reverse twist. Point is you are no better than Don

You try & fail at that with amusing regularity. But then, thats what
losers are for on usenet. & though you don't see yourself as a loser,
that is what you have made yourself by failing to respond to anything
without invokeing your pretend claims are real. Like this one.

> Quixote charging at windmills. You charge at anything and are easily
> spooked.

That would be you, else you could actually engage in conversation.
Such as , which god of the multitude of hu,manity's gods is the real one,
where is the evidence. Not evidence of what others have believed,
evidece of existence.
Hint, if it does not exist on the earth, then it does't influence the
earths activities.
You want to pretend it does, set up a scientific test & have qualified
people verify the results.

Hint: No holy text, tradition, or claims for a god are evidence, let
alone proof of a god.

Hint: The formation of planets show no need of a god wagging its willie
& poofing them into existence.

snip

There was a part refering to a messiah in there, one you pretend to claim
as yours, & you don't have to actually support the claiom. Wedll, wrong
answer again. Is your messiah on this list? If not, he is not supported
by historical evidence that has been published & av ailible to those that
have a fiend in Jesus.

Jah Asikari
Mirza Ghulam Ahmad
Theudas
Menahem ben Judah
Simon bar Kokhba
Moses of Crete
Obadiah Abu 'Isa al-Isfahani of Ispahan
Yudghan
Serene (Sherini, Sheria, Serenus, Zonoria, Sara)
David Alroy or Alrui
Abraham Abulafia
Nissim ben Abraham
David Reuveni
Shlomo Molkho (or, Solomon Molko)
Isaac Luria (or, Yitzhak Luria)
Hayim Vital
Moses Botarel of Cisneros
Asher Lemmlein
Sabbatai Zevi (alternative spellings: Shabbetai, Sabbetai; Tvi, Tzvi)
Jacob Querido
Barukhia Russo (Osman Baba)
Miguel (Abraham) Cardoso
Mordecai Mokia
Jacob Joseph Frank
R. Nachman of Bratslav
J. Krishnamurti
Rebbe Menachem Mendel Schneerson
Georges-Emest Roux
Sun Myung Moon
Sathya Sai Baba
David Icke
David Koresh
Maria Devi Christos

Have at it loser, all you can do is establish you have faith, which is
not in doubt, & can do noting but bluster, which is also not in doubt.


walksalone who doubts Pete has the discernment to understand Genesis
chapter 1, or it's implications for the Judaic faith & his red headed
step child faith. Not that it matters. Unlike him, many people do have
discernment. & can understand the implications.

BTW Pete, this is the god you have been looking for, & no one told ylou
abolut it. Until now. Get cracking boy, you can still catch the train.
Or not.

Amida [Amida-Nyorai] Immeasurable life
Japan, Buddhist
A buddha that posesses the properties of immeasurable life, & light. In
the Jodo faith, he is the key to access to Jodo, the pure land. At the
time of death, simplely saying his name is release if your beleif is pure
& deep.It is he the japanese turn to at the moment of death, for his
realm has a Lotus pond, that is just brimming with ambrosia & surrounded
by jewel studded trees. On the branches of those trees are perched
marvlous birds & melodious bells are attached to every branch. The buddha
& his angels circle the area while scattering lotus petals on the gentle
breezes.

[Don Martin]

On Fri, 8 Feb 2013 21:11:40 -0800, Pete <d...@kn.app> wrote to Smiler:

>> Thanks for your admission that your supposed god character doesn't exist.
>>
>

>Poor attempt at a reverse twist. Point is you are no better than Don

>Quixote charging at windmills. You charge at anything and are easily
>spooked.

And you've got just the Spook to do it, but no evidence for the
existence of said Spook. Tough shit, Bunky.

[harry k]

On Feb 9, 12:05 am, Steve Hayes <hayes...@telkomsa.net> wrote:

I suggest you go back and reread my 1st post to Mitchell. Do you see
_anything_ there that I support a ceremony?

Harry K