Why Atheists Worship Fantasy and Science Fiction ?
ohoe
I write much about atheists and their atheism on this blog site;
partly because I cannot fathom what it must be like to live without
any sense of transcendent purpose and hope in life; partly because I
am genuinely bemused by the kind of person who is more militantly and
dogmatically god-obsessed in their denial of God than most believers
are in their affirmation of God; partly because I find it bizarre that
there are people who would project such an intensity of hatred and
expend such a force of energy upon something which they claim does not
even exist; and partly because of the realization that it is not the
idea of “god” so much which really disturbs these guys but
specifically the God of the Bible, as revealed in Jesus Christ and as
worshipped in Christianity that really makes them madder than a junk
yard dog. And as I have come to know Christ as Lord and saviour, as
the One of such infinite love and compassion, it concerns me that this
God of love is such an object of hate and revulsion to them.
Welcome to the weird world of cyberspace, I guess...
What has this to do with Tolkien and The Lord of the Rings? A lot,
actually.
I have noticed how may footsoldiers for atheism are big fans of
fantasy and sci-fi, how many of them are fascinated by computers and
programming, of gaming and role-playing, of the kind of dressing up
that goes with medieval and civil war recreations. I have often been
struck by how many of them use names of characters from various
fantasy and sci-fi epics as their online monikers. My point is that
many of these guys - and guys they mostly are - immerse themselves in
the fantastic and the mythic in a way that runs counter to their
professed rationalism and commitment to philosophical naturalism. It's
as if, on the one hand, they deny the existence of anything but the
material but on the other hand, cannot extinguish their deep yearning
for the spiritual, the mythic and the transcendent. They channel the
latter urges into an obsession with toys, games, playing and escapism.
It all seems rather contradictory but it also is telling in that one
can apparently chase God out of one's life but one cannot get rid of
the God-shaped vacuum that remains, so one attempts to fill it up with
all sorts of little gods, perhaps the kind that inhabit books, and
movies and computer games, perhaps some more malevolent ones...
Many atheists are big fans of the works of J R R Tolkien. In our
common humanity that is something they share with Christians and other
theists, pagans and agnostics. Tolkien strikes a resonant chord with
all of us. But of course Tolkien was a committed Christian - as were
many of the great pioneers of Fantasy fiction - MacDonald, Williams,
Lewis et. al. - and his faith and his belief in God are an essential
part of his writing. Not just a minor part, but at the core of his
literature. One cannot fully comprehend the richness, the symbolism,
the themes of his work if one cannot appreciate the spiritual and
transcendent dimension that were so important to him. Of course
Tolkien does not hit the reader over the head with his religious or
spiritual concerns but the person for whom the cosmos is all there is,
all there ever was, and all there ever will be is not a person who can
inhabit Tolkien's world. But it says something about the human spirit
and the religious impusle that the committed materialist and atheist
can indeed feel at home in Tolkien's world even when rejecting the
very basis of Tolkien's worldview. Perhaps, in a corner of his heart,
behind a door he fears to open, the atheist really does believe in the
myth of the gods after all...
Mike Williams
"ohoe" <oo...@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:d0507f0b.04082...@posting.google.com...
> I have noticed how may footsoldiers for atheism are big fans of
> fantasy and sci-fi,
Ever noticed how many devout Christians were foot-soldiers for Hitler and
other despots?
Jez
> Talking Tolkien
>
>
> I write much about atheists and their atheism on this blog site;
> partly because I cannot fathom what it must be like to live without
> any sense of transcendent purpose and hope in life; partly because I
No, you just don't understand what it is to deal with reality.
You prefer fantasies, just like little children do.
Now fuck off from alt.atheism and take your childish fantasies with you.
Besides, Tolkien is pretty crap.
--
Jez
"The condition of alienation, of being asleep, of being unconscious,
of being out of one's mind, is the condition of the normal man. Society
highly values its normal man.It educates children to lose themselves
and to become absurd,and thus to be normal. Normal men have killed
perhaps 100,000,000 of their fellow normal men in the last fifty years."
R.D. Laing
ChuckPFb
> I write much about atheists and their atheism on this blog site;
> partly because I cannot fathom what it must be like to live without
> any sense of transcendent purpose and hope in life;
You're projecting your own inadequacies on atheiests. Just because
you can't make it without an imaginary friend doesn't mean everyone
else can't.
>partly because I
> am genuinely bemused by the kind of person who is more militantly and
> dogmatically god-obsessed in their denial of God than most believers
> are in their affirmation of God;
True, that's an amusing aspect of some atheists, however, you're limiting
your contacts with atheists to only a certain subset of them. There are
many atheists who simply don't think about atheism or God, they're too
busy with other more real pursuits such as their careers, social intercourse,
hobbies, projects, etc. Start talking to them about god(s) or lack of god(s)
and you'll just get a blank look and an attempt to change the subject. These
people don't wear their atheism like a badge or a medal or something.
>partly because I find it bizarre that
> there are people who would project such an intensity of hatred and
> expend such a force of energy upon something which they claim does not
> even exist;
Their intensity of hatred is not directed at all upon God, but upon *you* - there's
a big difference.
> and partly because of the realization that it is not the
> idea of “god” so much which really disturbs these guys but
> specifically the God of the Bible, as revealed in Jesus Christ and as
> worshipped in Christianity that really makes them madder than a junk
> yard dog.
These are generally persons who've had theism forced upon them at some point
in their lives, and they don't like it. Just as you'd be upset if there were Buddhists
running around everywhere trying to force Buddhism on you, or Scientologists,
or Moonies, or whatever label of cult crackpots.
>And as I have come to know Christ as Lord and saviour, as
> the One of such infinite love and compassion, it concerns me that this
> God of love is such an object of hate and revulsion to them.
They don't hate your God, what upsets them is the proselytizer who often
attempts to use the police powers of the state to force religious ideas upon
the secular public. That's generally the source of contentions.
> What has this to do with Tolkien and The Lord of the Rings? A lot,
> actually.
Nope.
> I have noticed how may footsoldiers for atheism are big fans of
> fantasy and sci-fi, how many of them are fascinated by computers and
> programming, of gaming and role-playing, of the kind of dressing up
> that goes with medieval and civil war recreations.
Why not broaden your social horizons and hang around with other social
groups? You'll find atheists in all of them, from auto racing enthusiasts
to mountaineers, to businesspeople or maybe even Republicans. There
are atheists everywhere who don't advertise their atheism. They don't
belong to churches and have other things to do on Sunday mornings.
> Many atheists are big fans of the works of J R R Tolkien.
Many atheists are big fans of the works of persons who write about
horses. Why not check them out some time?
> Perhaps, in a corner of his heart,
> behind a door he fears to open, the atheist really does believe in the
> myth of the gods after all...
Possibly. But you're projecting again. Broaden your social horizons.
There are many more sets of atheists who never think about atheism at
all, they're too preoccupied with other activities. They don't discuss
religion on Usenet or anywhere else. Bring the subject up and they'll
just change it.
Scott
"Mike Williams" <mikew@Nospamever][.orgnetcom> wrote in message
news:41307298$0$3599$61c6...@un-2park-reader-02.sydney.pipenetworks.com.au...
Ever notice how North Koreans filed their religious vacuum by succumbing to
a secular deity?
Scott
Scott
"Jez" <iced_...@NOSPAMdsl.pipex.com> wrote in message
news:413093c5$0$20244$cc9e...@news-text.dial.pipex.com...
> ohoe wrote:
> > Talking Tolkien
> >
> >
> > I write much about atheists and their atheism on this blog site;
> > partly because I cannot fathom what it must be like to live without
> > any sense of transcendent purpose and hope in life; partly because I
>
> No, you just don't understand what it is to deal with reality.
I'd bet neither do you.
> You prefer fantasies, just like little children do.
so do you.
Jez
> "Jez" <iced_...@NOSPAMdsl.pipex.com> wrote in message
> news:413093c5$0$20244$cc9e...@news-text.dial.pipex.com...
>
>>ohoe wrote:
>>
>>>Talking Tolkien
>>>
>>>
>>>I write much about atheists and their atheism on this blog site;
>>>partly because I cannot fathom what it must be like to live without
>>>any sense of transcendent purpose and hope in life; partly because I
>>
>>No, you just don't understand what it is to deal with reality.
>
>
> I'd bet neither do you.
You don't see me praying to non-existant entities.
>
>
>
>>You prefer fantasies, just like little children do.
>
>
> so do you.
No, I prefer the world, a world that is obviously devoid of any 'God'.
Why do you belivers have to post your trash to alt.atheism ??
WE ARE NOT INTERESTED IN YOUR 'GODS'!!!!
Scott
"ChuckPFb" <nos...@nospam2.com> wrote in message
news:zC0Yc.264226$OB3.1...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> "ohoe" <oo...@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:d0507f0b.04082...@posting.google.com...
>
> > I write much about atheists and their atheism on this blog site;
> > partly because I cannot fathom what it must be like to live without
> > any sense of transcendent purpose and hope in life;
>
> You're projecting your own inadequacies on atheiests. Just because
> you can't make it without an imaginary friend doesn't mean everyone
> else can't.
Atheists, Chuck, as are aware that I've been arguing lately, are no
different when they argue for their imaginary friend, moral progress.
>
> >partly because I
> > am genuinely bemused by the kind of person who is more militantly and
> > dogmatically god-obsessed in their denial of God than most believers
> > are in their affirmation of God;
>
> True, that's an amusing aspect of some atheists, however, you're limiting
> your contacts with atheists to only a certain subset of them. There are
> many atheists who simply don't think about atheism or God, they're too
> busy with other more real pursuits such as their careers, social
intercourse,
> hobbies, projects, etc. Start talking to them about god(s) or lack of
god(s)
> and you'll just get a blank look and an attempt to change the subject.
These
> people don't wear their atheism like a badge or a medal or something.
I do the same thing but I'm a theist.
>
> >partly because I find it bizarre that
> > there are people who would project such an intensity of hatred and
> > expend such a force of energy upon something which they claim does not
> > even exist;
>
> Their intensity of hatred is not directed at all upon God, but upon
*you* - there's
> a big difference.
Does that implies some moral truth backing that hatred?
>
> > and partly because of the realization that it is not the
> > idea of “god” so much which really disturbs these guys but
> > specifically the God of the Bible, as revealed in Jesus Christ and as
> > worshipped in Christianity that really makes them madder than a junk
> > yard dog.
>
> These are generally persons who've had theism forced upon them at some
point
> in their lives, and they don't like it. Just as you'd be upset if there
were Buddhists
> running around everywhere trying to force Buddhism on you, or
Scientologists,
> or Moonies, or whatever label of cult crackpots.
don't forget forced moral truths.
>
> >And as I have come to know Christ as Lord and saviour, as
> > the One of such infinite love and compassion, it concerns me that this
> > God of love is such an object of hate and revulsion to them.
>
> They don't hate your God, what upsets them is the proselytizer who often
> attempts to use the police powers of the state to force religious ideas
upon
> the secular public. That's generally the source of contentions.
What makes a scular public holier than thou?
>
> > What has this to do with Tolkien and The Lord of the Rings? A lot,
> > actually.
>
> Nope.
>
> > I have noticed how may footsoldiers for atheism are big fans of
> > fantasy and sci-fi, how many of them are fascinated by computers and
> > programming, of gaming and role-playing, of the kind of dressing up
> > that goes with medieval and civil war recreations.
>
> Why not broaden your social horizons and hang around with other social
> groups? You'll find atheists in all of them, from auto racing
enthusiasts
> to mountaineers, to businesspeople or maybe even Republicans. There
> are atheists everywhere who don't advertise their atheism. They don't
> belong to churches and have other things to do on Sunday mornings.
Same for theists.
>
> > Many atheists are big fans of the works of J R R Tolkien.
>
> Many atheists are big fans of the works of persons who write about
> horses. Why not check them out some time?
>
> > Perhaps, in a corner of his heart,
> > behind a door he fears to open, the atheist really does believe in the
> > myth of the gods after all...
>
> Possibly. But you're projecting again. Broaden your social horizons.
> There are many more sets of atheists who never think about atheism at
> all, they're too preoccupied with other activities. They don't discuss
> religion on Usenet or anywhere else. Bring the subject up and they'll
> just change it.
There would appear to be a lot who actually do though, eh.
Scott
Scott
> Scott wrote:
>
> > "Jez" <iced_...@NOSPAMdsl.pipex.com> wrote in message
> > news:413093c5$0$20244$cc9e...@news-text.dial.pipex.com...
> >
> >>ohoe wrote:
> >>
> >>>Talking Tolkien
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>I write much about atheists and their atheism on this blog site;
> >>>partly because I cannot fathom what it must be like to live without
> >>>any sense of transcendent purpose and hope in life; partly because I
> >>
> >>No, you just don't understand what it is to deal with reality.
> >
> >
> > I'd bet neither do you.
>
> You don't see me praying to non-existant entities.
human rights are bull shit.
>
> >
> >
> >
> >>You prefer fantasies, just like little children do.
> >
> >
> > so do you.
>
> No, I prefer the world, a world that is obviously devoid of any 'God'.
hince a-theism.
> Why do you belivers have to post your trash to alt.atheism ??
Works both ways. Atheist cross post from alt.atheism. Even in replies. I
might be mistaken but I don't recall seeing you being critical to Editor of
Evil Bible.
>
> WE ARE NOT INTERESTED IN YOUR 'GODS'!!!!
Ya, I know. Most of you are interested in your own mythologies.
G*rd*n
> ...
> fantasy and sci-fi, how many of them are fascinated by computers and
> programming, of gaming and role-playing, of the kind of dressing up
> that goes with medieval and civil war recreations. I have often been
> struck by how many of them use names of characters from various
> fantasy and sci-fi epics as their online monikers. My point is that
> many of these guys - and guys they mostly are - immerse themselves in
> the fantastic and the mythic in a way that runs counter to their
If atheists are indeed rationalistic, it would seem par for
the course for them to play at non-rationality. It is the
believer for who the non- or anti-rational is more than a
game.
(I'm going along here with the unsupported assumptions that
atheists are almost all rationalistic and fantasy and science
fiction non-rationalistic, which are not my own perceptions.)
--
(<><>) /*/
}"{ G*rd*n }"{ g...@panix.com }"{
{ http://www.etaoin.com | latest new material 5/10/04 <-adv't
raven1
>Talking Tolkien
I love Tolkien because I enjoy well-written fantasy. However, unlike
theists, I can distinguish fantasy from reality.
Jez
> "Jez" <iced_...@NOSPAMdsl.pipex.com> wrote in message
> news:41309b71$0$20246$cc9e...@news-text.dial.pipex.com...
>
>>Scott wrote:
>>
>>
>>>"Jez" <iced_...@NOSPAMdsl.pipex.com> wrote in message
>>>news:413093c5$0$20244$cc9e...@news-text.dial.pipex.com...
>>>
>>>
>>>>ohoe wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Talking Tolkien
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>I write much about atheists and their atheism on this blog site;
>>>>>partly because I cannot fathom what it must be like to live without
>>>>>any sense of transcendent purpose and hope in life; partly because I
>>>>
>>>>No, you just don't understand what it is to deal with reality.
>>>
>>>
>>>I'd bet neither do you.
>>
>>You don't see me praying to non-existant entities.
>
>
> human rights are bull shit.
Oh really ? Not an American by any chance are you ?
>
>
>
>>>
>>>
>>>>You prefer fantasies, just like little children do.
>>>
>>>
>>>so do you.
>>
>>No, I prefer the world, a world that is obviously devoid of any 'God'.
>
>
> hince a-theism.
Yip.
>
>
>>Why do you belivers have to post your trash to alt.atheism ??
>
>
> Works both ways. Atheist cross post from alt.atheism. Even in replies. I
> might be mistaken but I don't recall seeing you being critical to Editor of
> Evil Bible.
I don't often comment on any of his posts.
>
>
>
>>WE ARE NOT INTERESTED IN YOUR 'GODS'!!!!
>
>
>
> Ya, I know. Most of you are interested in your own mythologies.
Actually we have no mythologies. None. Nada...Zilch.
Douglas Berry
the cliffs of alt.atheism on 28 Aug 2004 07:07:34 -0700 by Zoog,
minion of Zathar. As he fell, he screamed:
>I write much about atheists and their atheism on this blog site;
>partly because I cannot fathom what it must be like to live without
>any sense of transcendent purpose and hope in life; partly because I
>am genuinely bemused by the kind of person who is more militantly and
>dogmatically god-obsessed in their denial of God than most believers
>are in their affirmation of God; partly because I find it bizarre that
>there are people who would project such an intensity of hatred and
>expend such a force of energy upon something which they claim does not
>even exist; and partly because of the realization that it is not the
>idea of “god” so much which really disturbs these guys but
>specifically the God of the Bible, as revealed in Jesus Christ and as
>worshipped in Christianity that really makes them madder than a junk
>yard dog. And as I have come to know Christ as Lord and saviour, as
>the One of such infinite love and compassion, it concerns me that this
>God of love is such an object of hate and revulsion to them.
Wow. Just a touch of assumption and projection there.
Let me clear it up: I don't believe in gods. Any of them. As for
hatred, it's directed at religious freaks who insist that i have to
accept their rules in my life.
>I have noticed how may footsoldiers for atheism are big fans of
>fantasy and sci-fi, how many of them are fascinated by computers and
>programming, of gaming and role-playing, of the kind of dressing up
>that goes with medieval and civil war recreations.
Which of course explains all the Christians in SF Fandom, the computer
industry, gaming, and historical recreations.
Hell, one of the big name fans in our area is a Catholic priest.
>I have often been
>struck by how many of them use names of characters from various
>fantasy and sci-fi epics as their online monikers. My point is that
>many of these guys - and guys they mostly are - immerse themselves in
>the fantastic and the mythic in a way that runs counter to their
>professed rationalism and commitment to philosophical naturalism.
We accept that SF/gaming isn't real. I do not think of myself as
Barak, Ranger of the North (From a D&D game I play in.) The same goes
for Iron Horse (Champions) and Eneri Sugaman (GURPS Traveller). I
don't believe that the SF I read and watch is real.
>It's
>as if, on the one hand, they deny the existence of anything but the
>material but on the other hand, cannot extinguish their deep yearning
>for the spiritual, the mythic and the transcendent. They channel the
>latter urges into an obsession with toys, games, playing and escapism.
Not really. SF/F appeals because it stretches the mind. It's fun to
play what-if.
>It all seems rather contradictory but it also is telling in that one
>can apparently chase God out of one's life but one cannot get rid of
>the God-shaped vacuum that remains, so one attempts to fill it up with
>all sorts of little gods, perhaps the kind that inhabit books, and
>movies and computer games, perhaps some more malevolent ones...
Naw, I replaced that hole with Barry Bonds (joke!) Truth be tld,
there is no hole. I just live my life.
>Many atheists are big fans of the works of J R R Tolkien. In our
>common humanity that is something they share with Christians and other
>theists, pagans and agnostics. Tolkien strikes a resonant chord with
>all of us. But of course Tolkien was a committed Christian - as were
>many of the great pioneers of Fantasy fiction - MacDonald, Williams,
>Lewis et. al. - and his faith and his belief in God are an essential
>part of his writing. Not just a minor part, but at the core of his
>literature. One cannot fully comprehend the richness, the symbolism,
>the themes of his work if one cannot appreciate the spiritual and
>transcendent dimension that were so important to him. Of course
>Tolkien does not hit the reader over the head with his religious or
>spiritual concerns but the person for whom the cosmos is all there is,
>all there ever was, and all there ever will be is not a person who can
>inhabit Tolkien's world. But it says something about the human spirit
>and the religious impusle that the committed materialist and atheist
>can indeed feel at home in Tolkien's world even when rejecting the
>very basis of Tolkien's worldview. Perhaps, in a corner of his heart,
>behind a door he fears to open, the atheist really does believe in the
>myth of the gods after all...
Or maybe not. Tolkien is popular becuase he wrote an incredible cycle
of stories. On the SF side of the camp, noted atheist and humanist
Issac Asimov occupies the same lofty plateau. If anything, Asimov's
works are more spirtual.
Being an atheist does not require that you lock yourself away from all
things touched by a theist. Hell, one of my favorite songs of all
time is "Spirit in the Sky"! But we do not read SF/F to fill a void,
we read it to enjoy the story.
--
Douglas E. Berry Do the OBVIOUS thing to send e-mail
Atheist #2147, Atheist Vet #5
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as
when they do it from religious conviction."
Blaise Pascal (1623-1662), Pense'es, #894.
Dave Holloway
> Many atheists are big fans of the works of J R R Tolkien. In our
> common humanity that is something they share with Christians and other
> theists, pagans and agnostics. Tolkien strikes a resonant chord with
> all of us. But of course Tolkien was a committed Christian - as were
> many of the great pioneers of Fantasy fiction - MacDonald, Williams,
> Lewis et. al. - and his faith and his belief in God are an essential
> part of his writing. Not just a minor part, but at the core of his
> literature. One cannot fully comprehend the richness, the symbolism,
> the themes of his work if one cannot appreciate the spiritual and
> transcendent dimension that were so important to him. Of course
> Tolkien does not hit the reader over the head with his religious or
> spiritual concerns but the person for whom the cosmos is all there is,
> all there ever was, and all there ever will be is not a person who can
> inhabit Tolkien's world. But it says something about the human spirit
> and the religious impusle that the committed materialist and atheist
> can indeed feel at home in Tolkien's world even when rejecting the
> very basis of Tolkien's worldview. Perhaps, in a corner of his heart,
> behind a door he fears to open, the atheist really does believe in the
> myth of the gods after all...
>
Yeah, well, you don't really believe that God exists.
So there.
Dave
John Baker
<iced_...@NOSPAMdsl.pipex.com> wrote:
>Scott wrote:
>
>> "Jez" <iced_...@NOSPAMdsl.pipex.com> wrote in message
>> news:41309b71$0$20246$cc9e...@news-text.dial.pipex.com...
>>
>>>Scott wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>"Jez" <iced_...@NOSPAMdsl.pipex.com> wrote in message
>>>>news:413093c5$0$20244$cc9e...@news-text.dial.pipex.com...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>ohoe wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Talking Tolkien
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I write much about atheists and their atheism on this blog site;
>>>>>>partly because I cannot fathom what it must be like to live without
>>>>>>any sense of transcendent purpose and hope in life; partly because I
>>>>>
>>>>>No, you just don't understand what it is to deal with reality.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>I'd bet neither do you.
>>>
>>>You don't see me praying to non-existant entities.
>>
>>
>> human rights are bull shit.
>
>Oh really ? Not an American by any chance are you ?
He's a fundy idiot. Nationality makes no difference.
Mark K. Bilbo
<d0507f0b.04082...@posting.google.com> we saw our hero
oo...@lycos.com (ohoe):
Man, it doesn't get much lamer than this...
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
Alt-atheism website at: http://www.alt-atheism.org
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Often anger is a sign of engagement with life. People who
are angry are touched deeply by the events of their lives
and feel strongly about them....Anger is just a demand for
change, a passionate wish for things to be different....
And, as it was for me, it may be the first expression of
the will to live." -- Rachel Naomi Remen
Takuon Soho
that
I have the highest respect for those who choose to believe.
You wrongly think that all atheists hate god and hate those who choose
to follow the beliefs of religion and this is not the case although
I am sure there are some who think this way.
Upon first learning and reading Tolkien, I thought that he was an atheist
and was promptly corrected by readers in this newsgroup that such was not
the
case and that he professed to be a devout catholic.
Though I find this indeed curious, it is fine with me.
Browsing through his published letters, he takes numerous opportunities
to re-avow his sincere and devout catholicism.
Tolkien's work remains one of the greatest feats of imagination and
storytelling
and everyone can appreciate it.
Occuring in a kind of earthian pre-history, there is no organized religion,
at least in the form
to which we are accustomed, in its pages.
The only thing that worries me is the growth of certain religions whoose
goal
is to oppose or overthrow all religions of opposing and/or different
beliefs.
This is, of course, as great a threat to those who choose not to believe
as it is to the most devout belivers.
This is religion's greatest threat and is the trend that you should be
concerned with.
Tak (aka Jimserac, James Pannozzi)
"ohoe" <oo...@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:d0507f0b.04082...@posting.google.com...
maf & dog, inc.
>
>"Jez" <iced_...@NOSPAMdsl.pipex.com> wrote in message
>news:41309b71$0$20246$cc9e...@news-text.dial.pipex.com...
>> Scott wrote:
>>
>> > "Jez" <iced_...@NOSPAMdsl.pipex.com> wrote in message
>> > news:413093c5$0$20244$cc9e...@news-text.dial.pipex.com...
>> >
>> >>ohoe wrote:
>> >>
>> >>>Talking Tolkien
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>I write much about atheists and their atheism on this blog site;
>> >>>partly because I cannot fathom what it must be like to live without
>> >>>any sense of transcendent purpose and hope in life; partly because I
>> >>
>> >>No, you just don't understand what it is to deal with reality.
>> >
>> >
>> > I'd bet neither do you.
>>
>> You don't see me praying to non-existant entities.
>
>human rights are bull shit.
I nominate this for Best Non-Sequitur of the Month.
Be that as it may, Squat -- since you think human rights are bullshit,
then it would follow that you wouldn't mind a lengthy prison sentence
for attending church.
<Squat scratches his head>
Oops. Did you forget that freedom of and from religion is one of those
bullshit human rights, which you are exercising right now?
Ditto for freedom of speech.
>> >>You prefer fantasies, just like little children do.
>> >
>> >
>> > so do you.
>>
>> No, I prefer the world, a world that is obviously devoid of any 'God'.
>
>hince a-theism.
Very good. I'm impressed with your comprehension -- today.
>> Why do you belivers have to post your trash to alt.atheism ??
>
>Works both ways. Atheist cross post from alt.atheism. Even in replies. I
>might be mistaken but I don't recall seeing you being critical to Editor of
>Evil Bible.
If you have to criticize Evil Blather, then you need to find a hobby.
If you would read the responses to Evil Bibble, you will find the
consensus to be that EB is a nutbutcket.
>
>>
>> WE ARE NOT INTERESTED IN YOUR 'GODS'!!!!
>
>
>Ya, I know. Most of you are interested in your own mythologies.
Such as? (This ought to be highly entertaining.)
John Baker
>Talking Tolkien
>
>
>I write much about atheists and their atheism on this blog site;
>partly because I cannot fathom what it must be like to live without
>any sense of transcendent purpose and hope in life;
Yes, that's pretty obvious. However, your inability to comprehend life
without a belief in or a need for your deity does not justify attempts
to ridicule or trivialize those who lack such belief. Perhaps it would
be better for you to actually learn a little about your subject before
writing any more.
> partly because I
>am genuinely bemused by the kind of person who is more militantly and
>dogmatically god-obsessed in their denial of God than most believers
>are in their affirmation of God;
If there were no militant Christians, there'd be no militant atheists.
We aren't militant about opposing or denying your god. We don't
believe he exists. What some of us *are* militant about opposing is
that small subset of Christians who try to force their beliefs onto
everyone else.
> partly because I find it bizarre that
>there are people who would project such an intensity of hatred and
>expend such a force of energy upon something which they claim does not
>even exist;
The anger that *some* atheists display isn't directed at your god.
It's directed at that subset of believers mentioned above.
> and partly because of the realization that it is not the
>idea of “god” so much which really disturbs these guys but
>specifically the God of the Bible, as revealed in Jesus Christ and as
>worshipped in Christianity that really makes them madder than a junk
>yard dog.
No, what makes us angry is Christians who can't get a handle on the
fact that not everyone shares their beliefs, and who incessantly
attempt to shove those beliefs down our throats.
> And as I have come to know Christ as Lord and saviour, as
>the One of such infinite love and compassion, it concerns me that this
>God of love is such an object of hate and revulsion to them.
If you're happy with your imaginary friend, that's fine. Most atheists
really couldn't care less. Just don't try to force us to hang out with
him. <G>
One more time, just to make sure it sinks in. We don't hate your god.
You can't hate something you don't believe exists. The anger, hate and
revulsion expressed by some atheists, and which you're so bemused by,
is directed at *you* (figuratively speaking), not at your invisible
friend.
That being said, I do understand your position. It's a common fallacy
among Christians. Unable to understand or accept that it's their own
attitude and actions that put many atheists off, they rationalize that
it must be because we "hate God." That simply isn't true. As a
Christian, you are, as you've already admitted, incapable of
comprehending how anyone could not believe in your god. You don't
understand why anyone would reject your message of redemption, and so
you go about spreading your "good news" with the best of intentions.
However, to the atheist, who does not share your beliefs or understand
why you *do* believe, the proselytizing Christian is not a welcome
bringer of salvation. He's just an annoying pest.
And why does that anger seem to be directed mainly at Christians?
Simple. Adherents of most other religions, at least here in the
States, don't seem to feel obligated to "convert" everyone they meet.
Or to insult and belittle anyone who doesn't share their beliefs.
>
>Welcome to the weird world of cyberspace, I guess...
>
>What has this to do with Tolkien and The Lord of the Rings? A lot,
>actually.
No, nothing, actually. Can you say "strawman?"
>
>I have noticed how may footsoldiers for atheism
Before we go on here, perhaps it might be a good thing to define just
what the hell a "foot soldier for atheism" is. When is the last time a
proselytizing atheist came knocking on your door with a copy of 'The
Blind Watchmaker' in hand? When is the last time you saw a group of
atheists handing out pamphlets at the bus station? When is the last
time you heard of a group of atheists protesting a book or film or
boycotting the sponsor of a television program because they found it
personally offensive? While there may be the odd exception now and
then, atheists generally don't do those things. But Christians do. It
would seem that it's your side that employs the "foot soldiers."
> are big fans of
>fantasy and sci-fi, how many of them are fascinated by computers and
>programming, of gaming and role-playing, of the kind of dressing up
>that goes with medieval and civil war recreations.
Can't speak for anyone else, of course, but I've never played any
role-playing games, and I haven't read a science fiction or fantasy
novel in years. I have been to a couple of Civil War reenactments and
a medieval fair or two, but as a photographer documenting the event,
not as a participant. And although I didn't ask, I'd be willing to bet
that most of the participants weren't atheists.
> I have often been
>struck by how many of them use names of characters from various
>fantasy and sci-fi epics as their online monikers.
Odd. I'd think that using the name of a sci-fi/fantasy character as
your nym would be more a sign of youth than of atheism.
Particularly since the majority of the regulars here in alt.atheism
post under their real names. Even the young guys. <G>
> My point is that
>many of these guys - and guys they mostly are
You don't get out much, do you? There are just as many women who are
atheists as men.
> - immerse themselves in
>the fantastic and the mythic in a way that runs counter to their
>professed rationalism and commitment to philosophical naturalism. It's
>as if, on the one hand, they deny the existence of anything but the
>material but on the other hand, cannot extinguish their deep yearning
>for the spiritual, the mythic and the transcendent. They channel the
>latter urges into an obsession with toys, games, playing and escapism.
>It all seems rather contradictory but it also is telling in that one
>can apparently chase God out of one's life but one cannot get rid of
>the God-shaped vacuum that remains, so one attempts to fill it up with
>all sorts of little gods, perhaps the kind that inhabit books, and
>movies and computer games, perhaps some more malevolent ones...
You're just getting sillier and sillier as you go along.
>
>Many atheists are big fans of the works of J R R Tolkien.
And many more aren't.
And many theists are also fans of Tolkien.
> In our
>common humanity that is something they share with Christians and other
>theists, pagans and agnostics. Tolkien strikes a resonant chord with
>all of us. But of course Tolkien was a committed Christian - as were
>many of the great pioneers of Fantasy fiction - MacDonald, Williams,
>Lewis et. al. - and his faith and his belief in God are an essential
>part of his writing.
And what bearing does this have on whether the books themselves are
well written and worth reading?
> Not just a minor part, but at the core of his
>literature. One cannot fully comprehend the richness, the symbolism,
>the themes of his work if one cannot appreciate the spiritual and
>transcendent dimension that were so important to him. Of course
>Tolkien does not hit the reader over the head with his religious or
>spiritual concerns but the person for whom the cosmos is all there is,
>all there ever was, and all there ever will be is not a person who can
>inhabit Tolkien's world. But it says something about the human spirit
>and the religious impusle that the committed materialist and atheist
>can indeed feel at home in Tolkien's world even when rejecting the
>very basis of Tolkien's worldview. Perhaps, in a corner of his heart,
>behind a door he fears to open, the atheist really does believe in the
>myth of the gods after all...
And perhaps not.
But my, you are a long winded one, aren't you? Not surprising. Many
Christians who "visit" us are quite adept at taking the long route to
say what amounts to not much of anything. What this entire post boils
down to is that you're claiming that atheists are a bunch of immature
geeks who live in a fantasy world. While that may be true of some of
us (since it's true of a certain percentage of people in general), it
certainly isn't true of all or even most of us. So don't be surprised
if a few of the regulars bring out their flame throwers. <G>
I'll close by saying it's quite apparent that you don't know very much
at all about atheists or atheism and most of what you *think* you know
is wrong, which is typical of most Christians who post here. I'd
suggest, if you're going to post in alt.atheism regularly, that you
don't commit the "sin" most of your fellow Christians do. Don't
stubbornly cling to your misconceptions even after they've been
pointed out and corrected. Take the time to learn a bit about who and
what we *really* are. It'll go a long way toward helping you avoid
looking foolish.
<web site spam snipped>
Coby
> "ChuckPFb" <nos...@nospam2.com> wrote in message
> news:zC0Yc.264226$OB3.1...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
>> "ohoe" <oo...@lycos.com> wrote in message
> news:d0507f0b.04082...@posting.google.com...
>>
>>> I write much about atheists and their atheism on this blog site;
>>> partly because I cannot fathom what it must be like to live without
>>> any sense of transcendent purpose and hope in life;
>>
>> You're projecting your own inadequacies on atheiests. Just because
>> you can't make it without an imaginary friend doesn't mean everyone
>> else can't.
>
> Atheists, Chuck, as are aware that I've been arguing lately, are no
> different when they argue for their imaginary friend, moral progress.
Maybe that's true in cases, but at least they have some evidence for it.
--
Coby
"Every year civilization is invaded by millions of tiny barbarians-
they are called children." Hannah Arendt
Mark K. Bilbo
<d0507f0b.04082...@posting.google.com> we saw our hero
oo...@lycos.com (ohoe):
> http://tertius.blogspot.com/
You know, it's interesting that this guy spends so much time babbling
about US domestic politics when his email address ends in "au."
Anywho...
I bounced around his babble and read through some of his screeds,
especially where he pees on himself about "weak" atheism. Found he doesn't
understand atheism nor agnosticism. But he's sure got a lot of opinions on
them.
I guess the US isn't the only English speaking nation with a crappy,
imploding school system...
Jason Coplen
> Your points are quite interesting but I guess I'm a more friendly atheist in
> that
> I have the highest respect for those who choose to believe.
>
>
Might be fine for you, but I have no respect for those beliefs. The
people might be fine, but to respect ignorance is rather silly.
towelie
I don't even like sci-fi, so there goes another strawman up in flames.
--
If you don't like my lyrics you can press fast forward. - Jay-Z
aa #2133
ap #19
Kronk
>Talking Tolkien
>
>
>I write much about atheists and their atheism on this blog site;
>partly because I cannot fathom what it must be like to live without
>any sense of transcendent purpose and hope in life;
And the transcendent purpose you have in your life is what? Spending
an eternity flattering and fawning over an extremely powerful
non-human that hasn't the slightest need of you? What's it like to
like to have *that* for an ultimate purpose?
>partly because I
>am genuinely bemused by the kind of person who is more militantly and
>dogmatically god-obsessed in their denial of God than most believers
>are in their affirmation of God;
Back when I believed there was a Santa Claus, elves, and flying
reindeer up North, I had doubts. Now that I believe this is just
another of humankind's many fictions, I am not troubled by any doubts
because that explanation makes so much more sense.
>partly because I find it bizarre that
>there are people who would project such an intensity of hatred and
>expend such a force of energy upon something which they claim does not
>even exist;
1. There is nothing at all inconsistent about making a character
assessment of a described character, whether or not the character in
question is living, dead, or fictional.
2. Among the many god characters humans have created, I find some to
have appealing personalities (eg. Prometheus, Ganesh), some to be
unappealing (most any gods that behave like brats and throw tantrums
when they don't get their way), some to be evil (those who abuse their
power to wring their selfish desires from the weak), and some to be
bizarrely alien or incomprehensible (eg. Quetzalcoatl, and the central
god of the Gnostics). The God of Abraham tends to be in the last
category--when it is not clearly partaking of the two categories just
before.
3. But even for the evil gods, I don't hate them any more than I hate
Hitler--who I never actually knew and who no longer exists. But in
the case of both, I can hate what they stand for.
4. And even for the believers in detestable Gods, I don't feel
animosity merely for their faith. And in this, I seem to be like most
atheists. (Check alt.atheism, the global hotbed of so-called
"militant" atheism, and see how often the Amish are attacked for their
devotion to the Christian god.) What renders god-believers of any
stripe detestable and contemptable is when they would exploit any
power advantage (for example usurping the power of the state, or
specifically targeting the naive and the weak) to try to indoctrinate
others into their belief--a sure sign that the belief has not enough
merit to stand on its own.
>and partly because of the realization that it is not the
>idea of "god" so much which really disturbs these guys but
>specifically the God of the Bible, as revealed in Jesus Christ and as
>worshipped in Christianity that really makes them madder than a junk
>yard dog.
Again, look at the Amish, and consider why it is that they do not
enrage atheists. It is also worth noting that Islamic theocratic
zealots are just as despised as Christian theocratic zealots. It
isn't the belief system, it's the way it's used.
And BibleJesus is most conspicuous for his absence outside of the
Bible storybook.
>And as I have come to know Christ as Lord and saviour,
Let me guess, you have come to know him without ever actually meeting
him.
>as the One of such infinite love and compassion,
The BibleJesus character hardly measured up to even basic human
standards of love and compassion.
>it concerns me that this
>God of love is such an object of hate and revulsion to them.
Why does that concern you? Is your God like Tinkerbell--in danger of
disappearing if we do not all clap for it?
>Welcome to the weird world of cyberspace, I guess...
>
>What has this to do with Tolkien and The Lord of the Rings? A lot,
>actually.
>
>I have noticed how may footsoldiers for atheism are big fans of
>fantasy and sci-fi, how many of them are fascinated by computers and
>programming, of gaming and role-playing, of the kind of dressing up
>that goes with medieval and civil war recreations.
Like most humans, atheists enjoy and appreciate imagination.
Imagination is what gives us the ability to contemplate realities
which do not presently exist. And practice with that ability better
enables us to envision realities to strive for, and it better prepares
us for new realities when they arrive. What all those activities you
listed have in common is that they operate under a global script that
defines the laws and logic of their realities. The simplest fiction
is that which operates under the normal laws we all live under.
Restoration fiction borrows heavily from the rules of past realities,
and it is a challenge of both imagination, to use rules we don't
routinely use, and our powers of research, to determine what those
rules really were. Good science fiction is the creation of any set of
rules subject only to the constraints of the physics we know of, so
far as we know them--with some imaginative license where we aren't so
sure. And even good fantasy operates within the logical constraints
and limitations of a created reality. (Fantasy wherein, literally,
anything was possible would be dead boring.)
And computers, of course, offer an interactive alternate reality,
which can have real and tangible effects in our reality. Just as
humans have used mechanical contrivances to assist or amplify human
power or speed, we are now using computers to do the same for our
imagination.
>I have often been
>struck by how many of them use names of characters from various
>fantasy and sci-fi epics as their online monikers.
Those are generally characters they find appealing. Notice how few of
them call themselves "God"--a character they also consider fictional,
but repellant.
>My point is that
>many of these guys - and guys they mostly are - immerse themselves in
>the fantastic and the mythic in a way that runs counter to their
>professed rationalism
Imagination is not at all contrary to rationalism.
>and commitment to philosophical naturalism.
Only when it comes to establishing beliefs about reality.
>It's
>as if, on the one hand, they deny the existence of anything but the
>material but on the other hand, cannot extinguish their deep yearning
>for the spiritual, the mythic and the transcendent.
It isn't that they cannot, it's that they do not want to. Fantasy is
fun, and fascination with the fantastic is an innate part of being
human. Witness the thousands of gods and magical beings that have
been concocted by humans in every age and place. Some of us simply
exercise reasonable diligence against letting our fantasies invade and
contaminate our perceptions of reality.
>It all seems rather contradictory
There is zero conflict or contradiction in keeping fantasy separate
from reality.
>but it also is telling in that one
>can apparently chase God out of one's life but one cannot get rid of
>the God-shaped vacuum that remains, so one attempts to fill it up with
>all sorts of little gods, perhaps the kind that inhabit books, and
>movies and computer games, perhaps some more malevolent ones...
What you have dimly appreciated is that we all have a basic fantasy
need. What you haven't yet figured out is that a huge diversity of
fictions can fulfill that need in humans, and gods comprise a very
small subset of the possible fictions that will serve. And your
particular god is but one of thousands in that subset--and it isn't
even the first, last, or greatest. It is simply another.
>Many atheists are big fans of the works of J R R Tolkien. In our
>common humanity that is something they share with Christians and other
>theists, pagans and agnostics. Tolkien strikes a resonant chord with
>all of us. But of course Tolkien was a committed Christian - as were
>many of the great pioneers of Fantasy fiction
Although we all have a basic need for fantasy, some of us have a
stronger need than others, and not all of us are scrupulous about
keeping fantasy separate from reality. That some who especially like
to dwell in fantasy might also have had beliefs in gods or other
magical beings is not the least bit surprising.
>One cannot fully comprehend the richness, the symbolism,
>the themes of his work if one cannot appreciate the spiritual and
>transcendent dimension that were so important to him.
And the Bible derives a lot of its symbolism from prior fantasies it
borrowed from too. Fantasies breed more fantasies, and if one were to
try to trace all the roots of a given fantasy, one would have little
time left for reality. But in a well-told story, we don't need to
know the roots. The richness of meaning is all there in the story.
>Of course
>Tolkien does not hit the reader over the head with his religious or
>spiritual concerns but the person for whom the cosmos is all there is,
>all there ever was, and all there ever will be is not a person who can
>inhabit Tolkien's world.
If you mean our efforts not to confuse fiction and reality would
prevent us from actually believing we were in Middle Earth, yes. And
I'd say that is a good thing. But we are every bit as capable of
reading his works as fiction as any god-believer who also reads it as
fiction.
>But it says something about the human spirit
>and the religious impusle that the committed materialist and atheist
>can indeed feel at home in Tolkien's world even when rejecting the
>very basis of Tolkien's worldview.
The very basis of Tolkien's fantasy world was imagination. I've never
seen any atheist reject imagination.
>Perhaps, in a corner of his heart,
>behind a door he fears to open, the atheist really does believe in the
>myth of the gods after all...
Perhaps the evangelism of certain theists is a defense against the
buried fear that, in the end, there might really be a difference
between fantasy and reality.
Kronk
Steve Knight
snip
>I write much about atheists and their atheism on this blog site;
>partly because I cannot fathom what it must be like to live without
>any sense of transcendent purpose and hope in life; partly because I
>am genuinely bemused by the kind of person who is more militantly and
>dogmatically god-obsessed in their denial of God than most believers
>are in their affirmation of God;
No matter how you slice, dice, perfume, wrap or lie, it's still
superstition There is no combination of words that will change it to
absolute truth.
You claim we are obsessed about not believing and rant and rage
whenever affronted by it. Try putting the shoe on the other foot.
Instead of making up intellectual word soup intended for believer's
only, try understanding what it's like being an atheist.
Do you know how careful we have to be around people like you? We
can lose our jobs, our friends and family not to mention being
physically assaulted. All because we have a logical conviction that
all superstition is bunk.
You also state on your web site that 'we don't deserve the benefit
of the doubt' and paddle out a Strawman argument. That's an
interesting aspect of keeping an open mind.
I also noticed you only defending your superstition without any
balance. Unless criticizing atheism is your version of balance.
Unfortunately, I didn't see 'any' empirical evidence to support
'any' claim you made.
Here you are whining about atheist obsession and you have your own
Blog ranting against us. Ironic hypocrisy thy name is superstition.
Warlord Steve
BAAWA
www.sonic.net/~wooly
AnotherObserver®
>Talking Tolkien
>
"I only have just one bullet with your name".
--
Davidwd
~~~~~~~~~
irreligionist
Dale
> partly because I cannot fathom what it must be like to live without
> any sense of transcendent purpose and hope in life;
I think this is the key to why many God-believers feel so threatened by
atheists. They believe that their beliefs lend life some purpose and hope,
but deep down they know it's more like enjoying a movie by suspending
disbelief. The presence of atheists threatens their ability to disbelive in
the essential purposelessness of life, and because they have no way to deal
with that, atheism threatens the very fabric of their being.
> partly because I
> am genuinely bemused by the kind of person who is more militantly and
> dogmatically god-obsessed in their denial of God than most believers
> are in their affirmation of God; partly because I find it bizarre that
> there are people who would project such an intensity of hatred and
> expend such a force of energy upon something which they claim does not
> even exist;
I'm also bemused by this type of atheist, but that isn't the only kind. This
guy is an ignorant bigoted hypocrite who spends much more time writing and
thinking about what's wrong with atheists than I have ever spent thinking
about what's wrong with theists.
[...]
> Many atheists are big fans of the works of J R R Tolkien. In our
> common humanity that is something they share with Christians and other
> theists, pagans and agnostics. ... Perhaps, in a corner of his heart,
> behind a door he fears to open, the atheist really does believe in the
> myth of the gods after all...
Here's where his ignorant bigotry really shines through. The "many" atheists
who are big fans of Tolkien are believer wannabes, but the Christians and
other believers are not inferior because of their enjoyment of Tolkien's
fiction.
Dale
news:wN0Yc.14483$OB2....@newssvr22.news.prodigy.com...
The fact that most people think they have a religious vacuum that needs to
be filled doesn't prove anything and doesn't support any argument, except
for Marx's comment about religion being the opiate of the masses.
John Baker
No, it sure doesn't. And even though I know this guy is a hit and run
troll, I took the time to post a semi-serious reply, just to show our
theist "guests" that even when subjected to unjustified vilification
from clueless idiots like 'ohoe', atheists can, and often do, remain
calm and rational.
Sam Culotta
Point well made. Turning oneself over to any sort of deity to the extent
that critical thinking is abandoned or devalued is the real sin.
Sam
>
>
Mark K. Bilbo
<4130d7f0...@news.gvtc.com> we saw our hero vo...@isp.com (Kronk):
> On 28 Aug 2004 07:07:34 -0700, oo...@lycos.com (ohoe) wrote:
>
>>Talking Tolkien
>>
>>
>>I write much about atheists and their atheism on this blog site; partly
>>because I cannot fathom what it must be like to live without any sense of
>>transcendent purpose and hope in life;
>
> And the transcendent purpose you have in your life is what?
Blogging.
herothatdied
of why observant christians don't study Set Theory, I'm now more than a
little interested in giving such a thing a look-see... htd
Michelle Malkin
"Dave Holloway" <silentdav...@cableone.net> wrote in message
news:10j1fah...@corp.supernews.com...
Tolkien created his own mythological world using Christianity, the
Vikings and many other myths to do this. We should ask ohoe if
he/she believes in Viking mythology and other myths simply because
he/she reads them.
Good to see you back again, Dave.
--
^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^
Michelle Malkin (Mickey) aa list#1
alt.atheism atheist/agnostic list name collector
BAAWA Knight & EAC Bible thumper thumper
http://questioner.www2.50megs.com
^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^
"Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never
stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and
neither do we." George W. Bush, Washington, D.C., Aug. 5, 2004
>
>
> Dave
herothatdied
"Michelle Malkin" <hypa...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:pPydnY3S2ec...@comcast.com...
>
> Michelle Malkin (Mickey) aa list#1
> alt.atheism atheist/agnostic list name collector
> BAAWA Knight & EAC Bible thumper thumper
> http://questioner.www2.50megs.com
> ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^
> "Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never
> stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and
> neither do we." George W. Bush, Washington, D.C., Aug. 5, 2004
>
saying there's nothing wrong with racial internment camps, right? Or do you
have some super deep double game going on just to make everybody's head
hurt? - htd
raven1
Our Mickey is *definitely* not _that_ Michelle Malkin, if you're
referring to the absolutely contemptible Neo-con bitch of a
"journalist" with that name, who seems intent on making Ann Coulter
seem rational and moderate...
Michelle Malkin
"herothatdied" <heroth...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:f5aYc.613$O85.326@trnddc05...
Mark K. Bilbo
<gvCdnTy_qeu...@comcast.com> we saw our hero "Michelle Malkin"
<hypa...@comcast.net>:
Speaking of such...
I wonder why it's never occurred to that woman that she's not white. I
mean, does she think the racists she allies herself with are going to
overlook that she's not "one of us?"
herothatdied
"Mark K. Bilbo" <alt-a...@org.webmaster> wrote in message
news:FqSdndA-sp3...@megapath.net...
heralded his homosexuality as a talisman of their own tolerance - as long as
he stuck to the party line. But the republican party manages at one and the
same time to be the theoretical enemy of affirmative action and its most
avid practical practioner. Minority representation in conservative punditry
is almost inversely representative of its representation in the conservative
movement - htd
Billy Goat
Why do Christians worship Horror?
But seriously...
I can see why you might consider fantasy as something threatening. But
people who understand the difference between fantasy and reality have
nothing to fear from fantasy, and can even find it entertaining.
--Billy
Mark K. Bilbo
<nNaYc.1492$UI6.1395@trnddc08> we saw our hero "herothatdied"
<heroth...@yahoo.com>:
On the other hand, once the "ethnic cleansing" begins...
(Well, she should keep her bags packed)
John Baker
"raven1" <quotht...@nevermore.com> wrote in message
news:85c2j0dpiaqjuajc2...@4ax.com...
Is making Ann Coulter seem rational and moderate even possible?
John Baker
<heroth...@yahoo.com> wrote:
No. Mickey is definitely *not* that stupid, racist bitch.
>
Doc Smartass
She got her ass handed to her on "Hardball" last week...damn, but she's a
loon.
--
Dr. Smartass -- BAAWA Knight of Heckling -- a.a. #1939
The Fundamentalist
== Knows no greater joy than the sound of his own voice.
== Knows no greater terror than the god he creates in his own image.
== Knows no greater evil than an unfettered mind.
== Knows no greater blasphemy than being told "NO."
Joe Ordinary
the softrat
<mikew@Nospamever][.orgnetcom> wrote:
>
>"ohoe" <oo...@lycos.com> wrote in message
>news:d0507f0b.04082...@posting.google.com...
>> I have noticed how may footsoldiers for atheism are big fans of
>> fantasy and sci-fi,
>
>Ever noticed how many devout Christians were foot-soldiers for Hitler and
>other despots?
>
Ever notice that many Followers of Satan cannot distinguish between
Sin and Error? Or don't want to. Anyone who suggests or implies that
Christians of any variety, devout or otherwise, cannot be mistaken is
at best an unwitting FoS.
the softrat
"Honi soit qui mal y pense."
mailto:sof...@pobox.com
--
If at first you don't succeed, destroy all evidence that you
tried. -- Steven Wright
Bill Snyder
<whata...@where.net> wrote:
Don't feed *which* off-topic troll?
<looks at list of groups>
Oh, *that* off-topic troll. <Voice="Crocodile Dundee"> "THAT'S not a
troll . . ." </Voice> Why, his message wasn't even 100 lines long,
and it's a typical "drive-by" -- a one-shot type rant. Hardly worth
noticing, if not for the unusual quantity of accomplices and "useful
idiots." Would you like to trade him for, say, Ed Conrad?
--
Bill Snyder [This space unintentionally left blank.]
Onelia Herriot
>
>
> I write much about atheists and their atheism on this blog site;
> partly because I cannot fathom what it must be like to live without
> any sense of transcendent purpose and hope in life;
I see a problem here as most scifi fantacy fans are more hopefull about
humanities future than most christians I know. You believe in the apocolypse
and damnation etc 8)
> partly because of the realization that it is not the
> idea of “god” so much which really disturbs these guys but
> specifically the God of the Bible, as revealed in Jesus Christ and as
> worshipped in Christianity that really makes them madder than a junk
> yard dog. And as I have come to know Christ as Lord and saviour, as
> the One of such infinite love and compassion, it concerns me that this
> God of love is such an object of hate and revulsion to them.
The problem many of us supposed atheists have is more a case of which of
this planets religions (all of which believe they are the only true
religion) is the real one, so instead we decide it is safer and cuases less
conflect to believe in no specific god.
You are very wrong however if you believe this makes us unspiritual. Most of
us do believe in a higher power/ force (I myself simply call it mother
nature) that causes life and aging etc its just the whole heaven/hell thing
we have trouble living with.
Why?
Ok, some personal details here. Lost my virginity at 27, dont lie, steal,
cheat or gamble (or drink or smoke). How do you think I feel when someone
whom you know has not lived as much of a "moral life" as you , tells you
that you are going to hell because you dont go to church where as they, who
have stolen and have numerous minor abuse chargers behind them, are going to
heaven because they have found God.
I myself believe that IF there is a heaven/after life we will each be judged
on how we live our lives here, not on how good a church goer you are
> What has this to do with Tolkien and The Lord of the Rings? A lot,
> actually.
ANd I heard the other day from someone that he was a white surpremisist. If
this is true does it mean that you are one too?
> I have noticed how may footsoldiers for atheism are big fans of
> fantasy and sci-fi, how many of them are fascinated by computers and
> programming, of gaming and role-playing, of the kind of dressing up
> that goes with medieval and civil war recreations.
Mmm, I play computer games and read books instead of going out to nightclubs
and drinking too much. I roleplay (including LRP) becuase it streches the
imagination as well as its fun to behave like children (LRP here) and run
around with fake swords and try and kill imaginary creatures. Its the
recapturing the innocents of childhood.
> It's
> as if, on the one hand, they deny the existence of anything but the
> material but on the other hand, cannot extinguish their deep yearning
> for the spiritual, the mythic and the transcendent. They channel the
> latter urges into an obsession with toys, games, playing and escapism.
mm, have to reverse this. Its as if on one hand they believe whole heartedly
in god but then faithfully and repeatedly feel they must go through the
religious steps to prove their faith to their God and fill the continual
whole in their soul.
> Many atheists are big fans of the works of J R R Tolkien.
I dont know about anyone else out there but I definately dont choose which
books to read by reading the authors bio!
>. Perhaps, in a corner of his heart,
> behind a door he fears to open, the atheist really does believe in the
> myth of the gods after all...
Ok reverse again. Perhaps in the corner of their heart, behind a door they
fear to open, the religious (notice non-denominational) really beleive that
maybe God is really a myth after all (remember, Myth is an unsubstantiated
story of a possible historic event, eg Greek and roman mythology)
Onelia Herriot
"Jason Coplen" <j.co...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:y56Yc.3684$9N1....@newssvr31.news.prodigy.com...
> Takuon Soho wrote:
> > Your points are quite interesting but I guess I'm a more friendly
atheist in
> > that
> > I have the highest respect for those who choose to believe.
> >
> >
>
> Might be fine for you, but I have no respect for those beliefs. The
> people might be fine, but to respect ignorance is rather silly.
So much for religion teaching tolerance!
Onelia Herriot
"Mark K. Bilbo" <alt-a...@org.webmaster> wrote in message
> On Sat, 28 Aug 2004 07:07:34 -0700 in episode
> <d0507f0b.04082...@posting.google.com> we saw our hero
> oo...@lycos.com (ohoe):
>
>
> You know, it's interesting that this guy spends so much time babbling
> about US domestic politics when his email address ends in "au."
>
> Anywho...
>
> I bounced around his babble and read through some of his screeds,
> especially where he pees on himself about "weak" atheism. Found he doesn't
> understand atheism nor agnosticism. But he's sure got a lot of opinions on
> them.
>
> I guess the US isn't the only English speaking nation with a crappy,
> imploding school system...
>
Being an Aussie I can spread some light on this then. If he went to public
school in Australia he would have to be under 25 years of age as that is
when religios eductaion was banedd in public schools
However my bet is he is amoung the very VERY large proportion of
international students who are the latest victims here of christianity.
They come out to get a university qualification and return home as preaching
born again christians- nice education system isnt it 8)
(Btw, its not taught at uni, the churches just purposely target these "lost
souled" pagans (no offence to any asian reading this, its not my belief!) )
raven1
wrote:
Not really, but I think my point is clear in any case...
RetroProphet
Mormon "scripture" sure does.
The only atheists I know who worship
Fantasy and Science Fiction are Scientologists.
aelfwina
"the softrat" <sof...@pobox.com> wrote in message
news:6tn2j0l2qihktb0mp...@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 29 Aug 2004 00:10:43 +1000, "Mike Williams"
> <mikew@Nospamever][.orgnetcom> wrote:
>
> >
> >"ohoe" <oo...@lycos.com> wrote in message
> >news:d0507f0b.04082...@posting.google.com...
> >> I have noticed how may footsoldiers for atheism are big fans of
> >> fantasy and sci-fi,
> >
> >Ever noticed how many devout Christians were foot-soldiers for Hitler and
> >other despots?
> >
> Ever notice that many Followers of Satan cannot distinguish between
> Sin and Error? Or don't want to. Anyone who suggests or implies that
> Christians of any variety, devout or otherwise, cannot be mistaken is
> at best an unwitting FoS.
*Applause!*
Barbara (a frequently wrong and mistaken Christian )
thomas p
>Talking Tolkien
>
>
>I write much about atheists and their atheism on this blog site;
>partly because I cannot fathom what it must be like to live without
>any sense of transcendent purpose and hope in life; partly because I
>am genuinely bemused by the kind of person who is more militantly and
>dogmatically god-obsessed in their denial of God than most believers
>are in their affirmation of God; partly because I find it bizarre that
>there are people who would project such an intensity of hatred and
>expend such a force of energy upon something which they claim does not
>even exist;
Explain something to me. What is the difference between creating
negative strawmen (as you do above) and bearing false witness?
snip
Mike Williams
"aelfwina" <aelf...@cableone.net> wrote in message
news:10j3633...@corp.supernews.com...
>
> "the softrat" <sof...@pobox.com> wrote in message
> news:6tn2j0l2qihktb0mp...@4ax.com...
>> On Sun, 29 Aug 2004 00:10:43 +1000, "Mike Williams"
>> <mikew@Nospamever][.orgnetcom> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >"ohoe" <oo...@lycos.com> wrote in message
>> >news:d0507f0b.04082...@posting.google.com...
>> >> I have noticed how may footsoldiers for atheism are big fans of
>> >> fantasy and sci-fi,
>> >
>> >Ever noticed how many devout Christians were foot-soldiers for Hitler
>> >and
>> >other despots?
>> >
>> Ever notice that many Followers of Satan cannot distinguish between
>> Sin and Error? Or don't want to. Anyone who suggests or implies that
>> Christians of any variety, devout or otherwise, cannot be mistaken is
>> at best an unwitting FoS.
>
> *Applause!*
> Barbara (a frequently wrong and mistaken Christian )
So only Christians can err? Or are appropriate judges? The OP is quick to
condemn.
*nemo*
oo...@lycos.com (ohoe) wrote:
> Talking Tolkien
>
>
> I write much about atheists and their atheism on this blog site;
> partly because I cannot fathom what it must be like to live without
> any sense of transcendent purpose and hope in life; partly because I
> am genuinely bemused by the kind of person who is more militantly and
> dogmatically god-obsessed in their denial of God than most believers
> are in their affirmation of God; partly because I find it bizarre that
> there are people who would project such an intensity of hatred and
> expend such a force of energy upon something which they claim does not
> even exist; and partly because of the realization that it is not the
> idea of “god” so much which really disturbs these guys but
> specifically the God of the Bible, as revealed in Jesus Christ and as
> worshipped in Christianity that really makes them madder than a junk
> yard dog. And as I have come to know Christ as Lord and saviour, as
> the One of such infinite love and compassion, it concerns me that this
> God of love is such an object of hate and revulsion to them.
Nothing but strawmen here. If you took the time to actually read what we
have to say, you'd realize that for the vast majority of us, this "God"
critter doesn't really concern us. I'm no more concerned about the
Christian sky-daddy than I am about Zeus or Thor or any other such
phantom that you can come up with.
What we get so worked up about is those believers who feel compelled to
attempt to force all others to join their religion. Since Christianity
is the biggest offender in this regard where I live, I think it's only
natural that I spend much of my time dealing with it. After all, knowing
the details of Hinduism will do me no good when a pair of JW's or fundy
Baptists show up on my door, will it?
If you want to continue being bemused by us, enjoy yourself. No doubt
you'll be very self-satisfied with your activity. But honestly, you are
having no effect on us. Folks like you are as amusing to us as we are to
you... the only difference is that we understand you, but you have no
clue about us.
--
Nemo - EAC Commissioner for Bible Belt Underwater Operations.
Atheist #1331 (the Palindrome of doom!)
BAAWA Knight! - One of those warm Southern Knights, y'all!
Charter member, SMASH!!
http://home.earthlink.net/~jehdjh/Relpg.html
Draco Dormiens Nunquam Titillandus
Quotemeister since March 2002
Mark K. Bilbo
<Xns9553E72918C2...@216.77.188.18> we saw our hero Doc
Smartass <gekiski...@astroboyskivviesmail.com>:
> "Michelle Malkin" <hypa...@comcast.net> wrote in
> news:gvCdnTy_qeu...@comcast.com:
>
>
>> "herothatdied" <heroth...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:f5aYc.613$O85.326@trnddc05...
>>>
>>> "Michelle Malkin" <hypa...@comcast.net> wrote in message
>>> news:pPydnY3S2ec...@comcast.com...
>>> >
>>> > Michelle Malkin (Mickey) aa list#1
>>> > alt.atheism atheist/agnostic list name collector BAAWA Knight & EAC
>>> > Bible thumper thumper http://questioner.www2.50megs.com
>>> > ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ "Our
>>> > enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never
>>> > stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and
>>> > neither do we." George W. Bush, Washington, D.C., Aug. 5, 2004
>>> >
>>> OK, so you're not _that_ Michelle Malkin, the one who just put out a
>>> book saying there's nothing wrong with racial internment camps, right?
>>> Or do
>> you
>>> have some super deep double game going on just to make everybody's head
>>> hurt? - htd
>>>
>>>
>> I am not that right-wing bimbo. I got my name from my father.
>
> She got her ass handed to her on "Hardball" last week...damn, but she's a
> loon.
Tweedy Matthews really surprised me. He almost acted like an journalist or
something for once...
Mark K. Bilbo
<gKbYc.10646$0J6...@fe1.columbus.rr.com> we saw our hero "John Baker"
<nu...@bizniz.net>:
May not be but that other Malkin is putting serious effort into the
endeavor...
Charlton Wilbur
OH> They come out to get a university qualification and return
OH> home as preaching born again christians- nice education system
OH> isnt it 8) (Btw, its not taught at uni, the churches just
OH> purposely target these "lost souled" pagans (no offence to any
OH> asian reading this, its not my belief!) )
This is not limited to Australia; when I was in graduate school there
was a fairly intolerant fundamentalist church within walking distance
of campus that held services in Chinese, Korean, and Japanese. Many
foreign students from Asia went to that church because it was
superficially welcoming, and the church did its best to indoctrinate
them in the worst aspects of intolerant Christianity.
(I had to put up with a roommate, originally from Beijing, who would
come home from Sunday and Wednesday services and tell me exactly who
was going to Hell and why. It was not pleasant, and I was quite glad
when he moved out after a semester because he had found a church
friend to share an apartment with.)
Charlton
--
cwilbur at chromatico dot net
cwilbur at mac dot com
Michelle Malkin
"RetroProphet" <RetroProp...@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:cgs1r...@drn.newsguy.com...
> Does the Bible count as Fantasy and Science Fiction?
Just plain old fantasy. There is no science of any kind in it.
>
> Mormon "scripture" sure does.
Fantasy is fantasy. Smith made up his own fantasies with
biblical fantasy mixed in.
>
> The only atheists I know who worship
> Fantasy and Science Fiction are Scientologists.
Name one atheist who is a Scientologist and you'll probably
be naming someone who isn't an atheist.
The very first science fiction convention I ever attended was
NYConIII in NYC. A Scientology convention was held in the
hotel at the same time. You never saw such glares as we got
from the Scientologists (who must have known that their
so-called 'religion' was made up whole cloth by a failed
science fiction writer (L.Ron Hubbard) as the result of a bet
he had with a couple other science fiction writers.) I
remember a lot of us either ignoring them or just laughing
at them.
Christopher Kreuzer
> Tolkien is popular becuase he wrote an incredible cycle
> of stories. On the SF side of the camp, noted atheist and humanist
> Issac Asimov occupies the same lofty plateau. If anything, Asimov's
> works are more spiritual.
Um. Asimov's works are more spiritual than Tolkien's works? Where do you
get that from? I don't remember there being much spirituality in
Asimov's works (though it is a long time since I read them). There is,
however, a subtle but very definite spirituality or religious/moral
underpinning to Tolkien's works.
Christopher
--
---
Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard
Christopher Kreuzer
Sorry. I have to ask this! Is your surname really Bilbo?
And where does the name come from?
James V. Blakely
> > news:pPydnY3S2ec...@comcast.com...
> > >
> > > Michelle Malkin (Mickey) aa list#1
> > > alt.atheism atheist/agnostic list name collector
> > > BAAWA Knight & EAC Bible thumper thumper
> > > http://questioner.www2.50megs.com
> > > ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^
> > > "Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never
> > > stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and
> > > neither do we." George W. Bush, Washington, D.C., Aug. 5, 2004
> > >
> > OK, so you're not _that_ Michelle Malkin, the one who just put out a
book
> > saying there's nothing wrong with racial internment camps, right? Or do
> you
> > have some super deep double game going on just to make everybody's head
> >
> >
> I am not that right-wing bimbo. I got my name from my father.
I guess I'm not the only one who is confused by your name.
>
>
>
Sumbuny
"ohoe" <oo...@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:d0507f0b.04082...@posting.google.com...
>
> I have noticed how may footsoldiers for atheism are big fans of
> programming, of gaming and role-playing, of the kind of dressing up
> that goes with medieval and civil war recreations.
(1) Which NewsGroup are you posting from, since this is cross-posted all
over the place?
(2) You might be surprised at how many Christians of various denominations
are also sci fi/fantasy fans....after all, these are nothing more than
grown-up fairy tales.
Or are you now implying that all parents who read fairy tales to their
children are doing so because of their religion or choice not to belong to a
religion?
(Any future replies will have headers trimmed)
Buny
<posting from alt.religion.christian/roman-catholic>
jwk
>
>
> I write much about atheists and their atheism on this blog site;
> partly because I cannot fathom what it must be like to live without
> any sense of transcendent purpose and hope in life; partly because I
> am genuinely bemused by the kind of person who is more militantly and
> dogmatically god-obsessed in their denial of God than most believers
> are in their affirmation of God; partly because I find it bizarre that
> there are people who would project such an intensity of hatred and
> expend such a force of energy upon something which they claim does not
> even exist; and partly because of the realization that it is not the
> idea of “god” so much which really disturbs these guys but
> specifically the God of the Bible, as revealed in Jesus Christ and as
> worshipped in Christianity that really makes them madder than a junk
> yard dog. And as I have come to know Christ as Lord and saviour, as
> the One of such infinite love and compassion, it concerns me that this
> God of love is such an object of hate and revulsion to them.
[snip]
Typical - a theist writing about what it is like to be something they
have never been.
One more time for the slow learners - we don't hate your god. We
don't care about your myths at all, but some of us do hate some of you
believers because of the horrible way you treat us. (Like this nasty
post.) Gee, imagine that.
jwk
Llanzlan Klazmon
news:d0507f0b.04082...@posting.google.com:
> Talking Tolkien
>
>
> I write much about atheists and their atheism on this blog site;
> partly because I cannot fathom what it must be like to live without
> any sense of transcendent purpose and hope in life;
What transcendant purpose would that be? You plan to spend eternity in a
christian heaven that was (according to the myth) so good that the
perfect angels rebelled. The contradictions of the xians dogma are just
too funny.
> partly because I
> am genuinely bemused by the kind of person who is more militantly and
> dogmatically god-obsessed in their denial of God than most believers
> are in their affirmation of God;
Hint: atheist's don't believe in gods. Theists do, therefore you are
denying the gods of the other faiths. So tell us why you deny Shiva.
> partly because I find it bizarre that
> there are people who would project such an intensity of hatred and
> expend such a force of energy upon something which they claim does not
> even exist;
Perhaps because bleaters such as yourself keep pestering their betters
insisting that they must believe their myths or else.
> and partly because of the realization that it is not the
> idea of “god” so much which really disturbs these guys but
> specifically the God of the Bible, as revealed in Jesus Christ and as
> worshipped in Christianity that really makes them madder than a junk
> yard dog.
Woof woof. Gee that sounded real mad.
> And as I have come to know Christ as Lord and saviour, as
> the One of such infinite love and compassion, it concerns me that this
> God of love is such an object of hate and revulsion to them.
>
This is the same god that according to the myth, murdered most people on
the planet, egged on all manner of genocide, killed an innocent couple
for not turning over their entire belongings to one of the original
henchmen. OK. Whatever floats your boat.
> Welcome to the weird world of cyberspace, I guess...
>
> What has this to do with Tolkien and The Lord of the Rings? A lot,
> actually.
>
Not anythying actually. Some people just like creative writing.
<Rest of lame nonsense snipped>.
LK.
Paul Duca
ohoe wrote:
> Talking Tolkien
>
>
> I write much about atheists and their atheism on this blog site;
> partly because I cannot fathom what it must be like to live without
> any sense of transcendent purpose and hope in life; partly because I
> am genuinely bemused by the kind of person who is more militantly and
> dogmatically god-obsessed in their denial of God than most believers
> are in their affirmation of God; partly because I find it bizarre that
> there are people who would project such an intensity of hatred and
> expend such a force of energy upon something which they claim does not
> even exist; and partly because of the realization that it is not the
> idea of “god” so much which really disturbs these guys but
> specifically the God of the Bible, as revealed in Jesus Christ and as
> worshipped in Christianity that really makes them madder than a junk
> yard dog. And as I have come to know Christ as Lord and saviour, as
> the One of such infinite love and compassion, it concerns me that this
> God of love is such an object of hate and revulsion to them.
>
> Welcome to the weird world of cyberspace, I guess...
>
> What has this to do with Tolkien and The Lord of the Rings? A lot,
> actually.
>
> I have noticed how may footsoldiers for atheism are big fans of
> fantasy and sci-fi, how many of them are fascinated by computers and
> programming, of gaming and role-playing, of the kind of dressing up
> that goes with medieval and civil war recreations. I have often been
> struck by how many of them use names of characters from various
> fantasy and sci-fi epics as their online monikers. My point is that
> many of these guys - and guys they mostly are - immerse themselves in
> the fantastic and the mythic in a way that runs counter to their
> professed rationalism and commitment to philosophical naturalism. It's
> as if, on the one hand, they deny the existence of anything but the
> material but on the other hand, cannot extinguish their deep yearning
> for the spiritual, the mythic and the transcendent. They channel the
> latter urges into an obsession with toys, games, playing and escapism.
> It all seems rather contradictory but it also is telling in that one
> can apparently chase God out of one's life but one cannot get rid of
> the God-shaped vacuum that remains, so one attempts to fill it up with
> all sorts of little gods, perhaps the kind that inhabit books, and
> movies and computer games, perhaps some more malevolent ones...
Does God fill the life-shaped vacuum in YOUR life with
anything other than menial church activites and endless hours of Bible
study?
Paul
Mike Williams
"Sumbuny" <IGNORETH...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:OzsYc.9901$bT1.2872@fed1read07...
> (2) ... these are nothing more than grown-up fairy tales.
I would beg to differ. When well done, they represent different activities.
The symbolism in fairy tales (fantastic parables) offer a different
experience to the exploration of difference in SF.
Michelle Malkin
"jwk" <jwkinr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c6f5ba32.04082...@posting.google.com...
And, we don't need a non-existent sky-pixie to feel hopeful about
anything. To say that atheists live without hope makes about as
much sense as believing in a 'god' that you can't even provide
evidence for its existence.
Of course, atheists don't hate your god, as you've been told
many times. You can't hate something that doesn't exist. You
seem unable to comprehend this, so the problem is yours, not
ours. The same with this idea that you have about atheists being
'god obsessed'. If theists such as yourself weren't constantly
invading alt.atheism in attempts to convert us or attack us with
lies and pure ignorance, your god would just be mentioned as
one of many in our discussions of mythology. Basically, your
god is less than important to us. The problem is, mostly,
so-called Christians such as yourself (again) invading our turf,
not just to discuss their beliefs and ask about what we do or
don't believe, but to insult, belittle, write snooty letters like
yours and try to tell us what we should or shouldn't believe.
Personally, I don't care what you believe, as long as you don't
hurt anyone mentally or physically under the guise of 'religion',
but when you tell others what they should believe and start
proselytizing all over the place (some do, some don't), then
you are fair game for being told to keep your long, Pinocchio
noses out of our business. It's theists like you that we hate.
--
^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^
Mark K. Bilbo
<UasYc.1260$Ez.15...@news-text.cableinet.net> we saw our hero
"Christopher Kreuzer" <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk>:
> Mark K. Bilbo <alt-a...@org.webmaster> wrote:
>
> Sorry. I have to ask this! Is your surname really Bilbo? And where does
> the name come from?
Yep, it really is. It's French and originally spelled Bilbaud. They were
were French Hugenots who came to the US in 1700. The name was Anglicized
to "Bilbo" *long before Tolkien was even born. <g>
It is a rare-as-hell family name. Apparently we're *all descendents of one
Jacque Bilbaud and, to my knowledge, there's only the one Bilbo "family"
in the US.
I'm betting Tolkien had *no clue. <g>
Dan Tilque
> Oh, *that* off-topic troll. <Voice="Crocodile Dundee">
> "THAT'S not a troll . . ." </Voice> Why, his message wasn't
> even 100 lines long, and it's a typical "drive-by" -- a one-
> shot type rant. Hardly worth noticing, if not for the unusual
> quantity of accomplices and "useful idiots."
<Voice="Olympic commentator">
Well Bill, he certainly has stirred up a real hornet's nest of
flamage here. His choice of newsgroups was solid, although I
can't but think it would have been enhanced by the addition of a
totally unrelated group such as, oh ... alt.tv.iron.chef, for
example. But the judges should definitely reward him with a good
score for artistic impression. On the other hand, he's going to
lose a lot for technical merit. Where was the imaginative
spelling, erratic punctuation and random capitalization?
>Would you like
> to trade him for, say, Ed Conrad?
Oh, he has a long way to go to catch up to the masters, but he
certainly shows lots of potential.
</Voice>
--
Dan Tilque
Alan Hobson
> On Sun, 29 Aug 2004 00:10:43 +1000, "Mike Williams"
> <mikew@Nospamever][.orgnetcom> wrote:
>
> >
> >> fantasy and sci-fi,
> >
> >other despots?
> >
> Ever notice that many Followers of Satan cannot distinguish between
> Sin and Error? Or don't want to. Anyone who suggests or implies that
> Christians of any variety, devout or otherwise, cannot be mistaken is
> at best an unwitting FoS.
1) Why would your all-powerful god allow any of his devout followers
to be mistaken?
2) How do you know that *you*, right at this very moment, aren't being
allowed to mistakenly follow satan?
-Alan
aa#1608 BAAWA
Alan Hobson
> Talking Tolkien
<snip blather>
The difference is that atheists know what fantasy is. We don't live
it. We simply use it for recreation.
-Alan
aa#1608 BAAWA
Christopher Kreuzer
Mark K. Bilbo <alt-a...@org.webmaster> wrote:
> "Christopher Kreuzer" <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk>: wrote
>> Sorry. I have to ask this! Is your surname really Bilbo? And where
>> does the name come from?
>
> Yep, it really is. It's French and originally spelled Bilbaud. They
> were were French Hugenots who came to the US in 1700. The name was
> Anglicized to "Bilbo" *long before Tolkien was even born. <g>
>
> It is a rare-as-hell family name. Apparently we're *all descendents
> of one Jacque Bilbaud and, to my knowledge, there's only the one
> Bilbo "family" in the US.
>
> I'm betting Tolkien had *no clue. <g>
Thanks for the history of your name. I'm going to see if I can remember
where Tolkien got the name Bilbo from, though as you say it is unlikely
to be anything to do with seeing your family name anywhere. There was a
example of where he created the name Gamgee for a family in LotR using a
name from the Birmingham dialect of his childhood (turn of the century -
1900's) for cotton-wool (gamgee). Tolkien named one of the Gamgees
Samwise (Sam of LotR). The other coincidence was that gamgee was a
shortened version of gamgee-tissue (a medical thing) invented by one
Sampson Gamgee. Tolkien was most surprised to receive a letter (number
184 in the published collection of letters) from a Sam Gamgee of
Tooting, London. It is a pity that he never had the delight of receiving
a letter from a Mr Bilbo!
As for the origin of the name Bilbo, the closest I could get was the
entries in Appendix F of LotR: "To their man-children they [hobbits]
usually gave names that had no meaning at all in their daily language
[...]. Of this kind are Bilbo, Bungo, Polo, Lotho and so on." The one
rule was to have male first names generally ending in an 'o' or an 'e'.
So it seems that Tolkien just made up the name Bilbo, and it is a total
coincidence that the same name and presumably pronunciation arose
somewhere else. Though I am sure there are now many people whose first
name is Bilbo, whose parents were 'inspired' by LotR... There is
certainly a dog called Frodo who made the news when he got a passport.
Steve O
>
> The very first science fiction convention I ever attended was
> NYConIII in NYC. A Scientology convention was held in the
> hotel at the same time. You never saw such glares as we got
> from the Scientologists (who must have known that their
> so-called 'religion' was made up whole cloth by a failed
> science fiction writer (L.Ron Hubbard) as the result of a bet
> he had with a couple other science fiction writers.) I
> remember a lot of us either ignoring them or just laughing
> at them.
I wouldn't class Hubbard as a failed science fiction writer.
His Conan stories were quite successful, weren't they?
Then again, he wrote them before he turned into a screaming basket case, I
suppose.
JGMJG
"Jez" <iced_...@NOSPAMdsl.pipex.com> wrote in message
news:413093c5$0$20244$cc9e...@news-text.dial.pipex.com...
> ohoe wrote:
> > Talking Tolkien
> >
> >
> > I write much about atheists and their atheism on this blog site;
> > partly because I cannot fathom what it must be like to live without
> > any sense of transcendent purpose and hope in life; partly because I
>
> You prefer fantasies, just like little children do.
>
> Now fuck off from alt.atheism and take your childish fantasies with you.
>
> Besides, Tolkien is pretty crap.
No, I prefer fantasy world situations to exercise the mind and because I
prefer a world so unlike this one. Let's face it this ones
pretty lame right now.
Steve O
>
> Of course, atheists don't hate your god, as you've been told
> many times. You can't hate something that doesn't exist. You
> seem unable to comprehend this, so the problem is yours, not
> ours. The same with this idea that you have about atheists being
> 'god obsessed'. If theists such as yourself weren't constantly
> invading alt.atheism in attempts to convert us or attack us with
> lies and pure ignorance, your god would just be mentioned as
> one of many in our discussions of mythology. Basically, your
> god is less than important to us. The problem is, mostly,
> so-called Christians such as yourself (again) invading our turf,
> not just to discuss their beliefs and ask about what we do or
> don't believe, but to insult, belittle, write snooty letters like
> yours and try to tell us what we should or shouldn't believe.
> Personally, I don't care what you believe, as long as you don't
> hurt anyone mentally or physically under the guise of 'religion',
> but when you tell others what they should believe and start
> proselytizing all over the place (some do, some don't), then
> you are fair game for being told to keep your long, Pinocchio
> noses out of our business. It's theists like you that we hate.
Michelle, isn't it the position of a strong atheist to actively oppose
organised religion because of the damage and harm it can cause, or have I
misunderstood that part?
Steve O
Hey, I'm not so sure.
There's a guy across the road from me who holds barbeques in full Klingon
uniform. ;-)
Scott
"Dale" <dmg...@nspm.airmail.net> wrote in message
news:Yr7Yc.14576$1I4....@newssvr22.news.prodigy.com...
> "Scott" <sc...@nospam.net> wrote in message
> news:wN0Yc.14483$OB2....@newssvr22.news.prodigy.com...
> >
> > "Mike Williams" <mikew@Nospamever][.orgnetcom> wrote in message
> >
>
news:41307298$0$3599$61c6...@un-2park-reader-02.sydney.pipenetworks.com.au...
> > >
> > > "ohoe" <oo...@lycos.com> wrote in message
> > > news:d0507f0b.04082...@posting.google.com...
> > > > I have noticed how may footsoldiers for atheism are big fans of
> > > > fantasy and sci-fi,
> > >
> > > Ever noticed how many devout Christians were foot-soldiers for Hitler
> and
> > > other despots?
> >
> to
> > a secular deity?
>
> The fact that most people think they have a religious vacuum that needs to
> be filled doesn't prove anything and doesn't support any argument, except
> for Marx's comment about religion being the opiate of the masses.
It's natural for people to be religious. North Koreans have their opiate in
their "Dear Leader".
Scott
"Sam Culotta" <culot...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:fN7Yc.2370$4m2.571@trnddc01...
>
> "Scott" <sc...@nospam.net> wrote in message
> news:wN0Yc.14483$OB2....@newssvr22.news.prodigy.com...
> >
> > "Mike Williams" <mikew@Nospamever][.orgnetcom> wrote in message
> >
>
news:41307298$0$3599$61c6...@un-2park-reader-02.sydney.pipenetworks.com.au...
> > >
> > > "ohoe" <oo...@lycos.com> wrote in message
> > > news:d0507f0b.04082...@posting.google.com...
> > > > I have noticed how may footsoldiers for atheism are big fans of
> > > > fantasy and sci-fi,
> > >
> > > Ever noticed how many devout Christians were foot-soldiers for Hitler
> and
> > > other despots?
> >
> > Ever notice how North Koreans filed their religious vacuum by succumbing
> to
> > a secular deity?
> >
>
> Point well made. Turning oneself over to any sort of deity to the extent
> that critical thinking is abandoned or devalued is the real sin.
"Real sin"? If most atheists are correct and materialism/naturalism is the
true nature of reality then there is no "real sin" because moral progress
can't exist as anything other than an illusion.....just like gods.
Scott
Scott
"John Baker" <jba...@neo.rr.com> wrote in message
news:klf1j01n15qofg7nq...@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 28 Aug 2004 16:34:08 +0100, Jez
> <iced_...@NOSPAMdsl.pipex.com> wrote:> >> news:41309b71$0$20246$cc9e...@news-text.dial.pipex.com...
> >>
> >>>Scott wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>"Jez" <iced_...@NOSPAMdsl.pipex.com> wrote in message
> >>>>news:413093c5$0$20244$cc9e...@news-text.dial.pipex.com...
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>ohoe wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>Talking Tolkien
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>I write much about atheists and their atheism on this blog site;
> >>>>>>partly because I cannot fathom what it must be like to live without
> >>>>>>any sense of transcendent purpose and hope in life; partly because I
> >>>>>
> >>>>>No, you just don't understand what it is to deal with reality.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>You don't see me praying to non-existant entities.
> >>
> >>
> >> human rights are bull shit.
> >
> >Oh really ? Not an American by any chance are you ?
>
>
> He's a fundy idiot. Nationality makes no difference.
Like hell I am.
Mark K. Bilbo
<5rCYc.1464$Rv5.17...@news-text.cableinet.net> we saw our hero
"Christopher Kreuzer" <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk>:
> [other newsgroups snipped - alt.atheism left for Bilbo!]
>
> Mark K. Bilbo <alt-a...@org.webmaster> wrote:
>> "Christopher Kreuzer" <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk>: wrote
>
>>> Sorry. I have to ask this! Is your surname really Bilbo? And where does
>>> the name come from?
>>
>> Yep, it really is. It's French and originally spelled Bilbaud. They were
>> were French Hugenots who came to the US in 1700. The name was Anglicized
>> to "Bilbo" *long before Tolkien was even born. <g>
>>
>> It is a rare-as-hell family name. Apparently we're *all descendents of
>> one Jacque Bilbaud and, to my knowledge, there's only the one Bilbo
>> "family" in the US.
>>
>> I'm betting Tolkien had *no clue. <g>
>
> Thanks for the history of your name. I'm going to see if I can remember
> where Tolkien got the name Bilbo from, though as you say it is unlikely to
> be anything to do with seeing your family name anywhere. There was a
> example of where he created the name Gamgee for a family in LotR using a
> name from the Birmingham dialect of his childhood (turn of the century -
> 1900's) for cotton-wool (gamgee). Tolkien named one of the Gamgees Samwise
> (Sam of LotR). The other coincidence was that gamgee was a shortened
> version of gamgee-tissue (a medical thing) invented by one Sampson Gamgee.
> Tolkien was most surprised to receive a letter (number 184 in the
> published collection of letters) from a Sam Gamgee of Tooting, London. It
> is a pity that he never had the delight of receiving a letter from a Mr
> Bilbo!
I'm surprised nobody ever wrote him.
> As for the origin of the name Bilbo, the closest I could get was the
> entries in Appendix F of LotR: "To their man-children they [hobbits]
> usually gave names that had no meaning at all in their daily language
> [...]. Of this kind are Bilbo, Bungo, Polo, Lotho and so on." The one rule
> was to have male first names generally ending in an 'o' or an 'e'.
>
> So it seems that Tolkien just made up the name Bilbo, and it is a total
> coincidence that the same name and presumably pronunciation arose
> somewhere else. Though I am sure there are now many people whose first
> name is Bilbo, whose parents were 'inspired' by LotR... There is certainly
> a dog called Frodo who made the news when he got a passport.
I always figured it was a coincidence.
Tolkien fans, though, give me such suspicious looks. <g>
(I actually had to show my driver's license to someone at a writer's
convention)
Scott
> Scott wrote:
>
> > "Jez" <iced_...@NOSPAMdsl.pipex.com> wrote in message
> > news:41309b71$0$20246$cc9e...@news-text.dial.pipex.com...
> >
> >>Scott wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>"Jez" <iced_...@NOSPAMdsl.pipex.com> wrote in message
> >>>news:413093c5$0$20244$cc9e...@news-text.dial.pipex.com...
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>ohoe wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>Talking Tolkien
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>I write much about atheists and their atheism on this blog site;
> >>>>>partly because I cannot fathom what it must be like to live without
> >>>>>any sense of transcendent purpose and hope in life; partly because I
> >>>>
> >>>>No, you just don't understand what it is to deal with reality.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>I'd bet neither do you.
> >>
> >>You don't see me praying to non-existant entities.
> >
> >
> > human rights are bull shit.
>
> Oh really ? Not an American by any chance are you ?
<set a bait and made a catch>
Of course I'm an american. I'm also a realiest.
"Human rights are only a convenient fantasy" - stoney.
Why is that a true statement *if* materialism is true like stoney believes
it is? Because if materialism is true, there is no such thing as moral
progress. What can you measure said progress against? Nothing. You have no
materialistic means to make an empirical measurement by. Nothing at all. For
moral progress to exist (and therefore some kind of inherent human rights -
aka natural rights) you need a Moral Truth, an ethical moral realism.
Materialism denies all of that and says morality is all Meta-ethical
Relativism and therefore only subjective perception. Moral truth, moral
realism, moral progress, inherent rights of man, and god all exist in the
same metaphysical existence. All that can be said about morality is that
preferences are relative to within cultures and individuals, cultural
relativism and subjectivism. If materialism is true than the Americanism is
built upon a fantasy. Jefferson, I believe, knew he had to *ground* his
human rights on intuitionism as being endowed from his deistic creator
because nature didn't afford him the luxury.
>
> >
> >
> >
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>You prefer fantasies, just like little children do.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>so do you.
> >>
> >>No, I prefer the world, a world that is obviously devoid of any 'God'.
> >
> >
> > hince a-theism.
>
> Yip.
> >
> >
> >>Why do you belivers have to post your trash to alt.atheism ??
> >
> >
> > Works both ways. Atheist cross post from alt.atheism. Even in replies. I
> > might be mistaken but I don't recall seeing you being critical to Editor
of
> > Evil Bible.
>
> I don't often comment on any of his posts.
>
> >
> >
> >
> >>WE ARE NOT INTERESTED IN YOUR 'GODS'!!!!
> >
> >
> >
> > Ya, I know. Most of you are interested in your own mythologies.
>
> Actually we have no mythologies. None. Nada...Zilch.
Do you believe in humanism and materialism/naturalism? If you do, you
believe in an oxymoron. Humanism is inherently moral cognitive while
materialism is inherently moral non-cognitive. If you think otherwise, you
have a mythology.
Scott
Scott
"maf & dog, inc. " <m...@f.chezchien> wrote in message
news:0om1j0p1o7nqu4o38...@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 28 Aug 2004 14:55:07 GMT, "Scott" <sc...@nospam.net> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Jez" <iced_...@NOSPAMdsl.pipex.com> wrote in message
> >news:41309b71$0$20246$cc9e...@news-text.dial.pipex.com...
> >> Scott wrote:
> >>
> >> > "Jez" <iced_...@NOSPAMdsl.pipex.com> wrote in message
> >> > news:413093c5$0$20244$cc9e...@news-text.dial.pipex.com...
> >> >
> >> >>ohoe wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >>>Talking Tolkien
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>>I write much about atheists and their atheism on this blog site;
> >> >>>partly because I cannot fathom what it must be like to live without
> >> >>>any sense of transcendent purpose and hope in life; partly because I
> >> >>
> >> >>No, you just don't understand what it is to deal with reality.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > I'd bet neither do you.
> >>
> >> You don't see me praying to non-existant entities.
> >
> >human rights are bull shit.
>
>
> Be that as it may, Squat -- since you think human rights are bullshit,
> then it would follow that you wouldn't mind a lengthy prison sentence
> for attending church.
> <Squat scratches his head>
>
> Oops. Did you forget that freedom of and from religion is one of those
> bullshit human rights, which you are exercising right now?
> Ditto for freedom of speech.
I nominate you a fool.
> >> >>You prefer fantasies, just like little children do.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > so do you.
> >>
> >> No, I prefer the world, a world that is obviously devoid of any 'God'.
> >
> >hince a-theism.
>
> Very good. I'm impressed with your comprehension -- today.
>
> >> Why do you belivers have to post your trash to alt.atheism ??
> >
> >Works both ways. Atheist cross post from alt.atheism. Even in replies. I
> >might be mistaken but I don't recall seeing you being critical to Editor
of
> >Evil Bible.
>
> If you have to criticize Evil Blather, then you need to find a hobby.
> If you would read the responses to Evil Bibble, you will find the
> consensus to be that EB is a nutbutcket.
> >
> >>
> >> WE ARE NOT INTERESTED IN YOUR 'GODS'!!!!
> >
> >
> >Ya, I know. Most of you are interested in your own mythologies.
>
> Such as? (This ought to be highly entertaining.)
>
> >
> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >>Now fuck off from alt.atheism and take your childish fantasies with
> >you.
> >> >>
> >> >>Besides, Tolkien is pretty crap.
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Jez
> >> "The condition of alienation, of being asleep, of being unconscious,
> >> of being out of one's mind, is the condition of the normal man. Society
> >> highly values its normal man.It educates children to lose themselves
> >> and to become absurd,and thus to be normal. Normal men have killed
> >> perhaps 100,000,000 of their fellow normal men in the last fifty
years."
> >> R.D. Laing
> >
>
Joe Mason
On 2004-08-30, Steve O <ste...@aol.com> wrote:
> Michelle, isn't it the position of a strong atheist to actively oppose
> organised religion because of the damage and harm it can cause, or have I
> misunderstood that part?
Atheism doesn't have a position; it can't, because it's not organized.
Individual atheists may take this view if they want. Michelle apparently
doesn't.
Joe
Scott
"Coby" <c-p...@comgo.fish> wrote in message
news:6E5Yc.250321$eM2.13863@attbi_s51...
> Scott wrote:
> > "ChuckPFb" <nos...@nospam2.com> wrote in message
> > news:zC0Yc.264226$OB3.1...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> >>> partly because I cannot fathom what it must be like to live without
> >>> any sense of transcendent purpose and hope in life;
> >>
> >> you can't make it without an imaginary friend doesn't mean everyone
> >> else can't.
> >
> > Atheists, Chuck, as are aware that I've been arguing lately, are no
> > different when they argue for their imaginary friend, moral progress.
>
> Maybe that's true in cases, but at least they have some evidence for it.
Oh?! Well, Coby, how about you prove up the evidence for moral progress. To
do so you are going to have to first prove Metaphysical Moral Truth, Moral
Realism, Moral Objectivism.
See the argument on "no moral progress"
http://www-phil.tamu.edu/~b-everman/victor/moral/Relativism_handout.pdf
Jez
> "Jez" <iced_...@NOSPAMdsl.pipex.com> wrote in message
> news:4130a617$0$20253$cc9e...@news-text.dial.pipex.com...
>
>>Scott wrote:
>>
>>
>>>"Jez" <iced_...@NOSPAMdsl.pipex.com> wrote in message
>>>news:41309b71$0$20246$cc9e...@news-text.dial.pipex.com...
>>>
>>>
>>>>Scott wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>"Jez" <iced_...@NOSPAMdsl.pipex.com> wrote in message
>>>>>news:413093c5$0$20244$cc9e...@news-text.dial.pipex.com...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>ohoe wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Talking Tolkien
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I write much about atheists and their atheism on this blog site;
>>>>>>>partly because I cannot fathom what it must be like to live without
>>>>>>>any sense of transcendent purpose and hope in life; partly because I
>>>>>>
>>>>>>No, you just don't understand what it is to deal with reality.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>I'd bet neither do you.
>>>>
>>>>You don't see me praying to non-existant entities.
>>>
>>>
>>>human rights are bull shit.
>>
>>Oh really ? Not an American by any chance are you ?
>
>
> <set a bait and made a catch>
>
> Of course I'm an american. I'm also a realiest.
Yeah sure dude.
>
> "Human rights are only a convenient fantasy" - stoney.
>
> Why is that a true statement *if* materialism is true like stoney believes
> it is? Because if materialism is true, there is no such thing as moral
> progress. What can you measure said progress against? Nothing. You have no
> materialistic means to make an empirical measurement by. Nothing at all. For
> moral progress to exist (and therefore some kind of inherent human rights -
> aka natural rights) you need a Moral Truth, an ethical moral realism.
> Materialism denies all of that and says morality is all Meta-ethical
> Relativism and therefore only subjective perception. Moral truth, moral
> realism, moral progress, inherent rights of man, and god all exist in the
> same metaphysical existence. All that can be said about morality is that
> preferences are relative to within cultures and individuals, cultural
> relativism and subjectivism. If materialism is true than the Americanism is
> built upon a fantasy. Jefferson, I believe, knew he had to *ground* his
> human rights on intuitionism as being endowed from his deistic creator
> because nature didn't afford him the luxury.
>
Dunno what the fuck your ranting about there.
>
>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>You prefer fantasies, just like little children do.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>so do you.
>>>>
>>>>No, I prefer the world, a world that is obviously devoid of any 'God'.
>>>
>>>
>>>hince a-theism.
>>
>>Yip.
>>
>>>
>>>>Why do you belivers have to post your trash to alt.atheism ??
>>>
>>>
>>>Works both ways. Atheist cross post from alt.atheism. Even in replies. I
>>>might be mistaken but I don't recall seeing you being critical to Editor
>
> of
>
>>>Evil Bible.
>>
>>I don't often comment on any of his posts.
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>WE ARE NOT INTERESTED IN YOUR 'GODS'!!!!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Ya, I know. Most of you are interested in your own mythologies.
>>
>>Actually we have no mythologies. None. Nada...Zilch.
>
>
> Do you believe in humanism and materialism/naturalism? If you do, you
> believe in an oxymoron. Humanism is inherently moral cognitive while
> materialism is inherently moral non-cognitive. If you think otherwise, you
> have a mythology.
'Believe in' strange phrase that.
I know of the existence of such philosophies, but whether I believe in
them is another matter.
Robibnikoff
"Joe Mason" <j...@notcharles.ca> wrote in message
news:slrncj6c1...@arch.notcharles.ca...
Neither do I. I honestly couldn't care less if people want to believe in a
god and practice a religion - Just don't try to force it on other people.
--
__________
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
#1557
Coby
I don't have to do anything of the sort. If it isn't pretty obvious to you
that the average lot of us humans just keeps getting better (and largely
because of how we treat each other), well then I guess we may have a
difference of perception. From my perspective, the historical record would
seem to indicate that, on balance, human morals have progressed a great deal
since Nebuchadnezzer's time.
> See the argument on "no moral progress"
> http://www-phil.tamu.edu/~b-everman/victor/moral/Relativism_handout.pdf
I just saw some stuff on moral relativism. Is there a historical argument
somewhere that I missed? Or does "moral progress" mean something different
than what I think it means?
--
Coby
"Every year civilization is invaded by millions of tiny barbarians-
they are called children." Hannah Arendt
zambon...@knowshpamatyahoo.com
How ironic. Don't the Klingons usually only eat things that are living
or at least raw? Like the old Romulan saying goes: "A Klingon needs a
barbeque grill like a fish needs a bicycle."
When I hold a barbeque, I usually dress up like an early 21st century
terran. Pretty eccentric, eh?
zamboni
Fred Stone
> Michelle Malkin wrote:
>>
>> The very first science fiction convention I ever attended was
>> NYConIII in NYC. A Scientology convention was held in the
>> hotel at the same time. You never saw such glares as we got
>> from the Scientologists (who must have known that their
>> so-called 'religion' was made up whole cloth by a failed
>> science fiction writer (L.Ron Hubbard) as the result of a bet
>> he had with a couple other science fiction writers.) I
>> remember a lot of us either ignoring them or just laughing
>> at them.
>
> I wouldn't class Hubbard as a failed science fiction writer.
> His Conan stories were quite successful, weren't they?
That was Robert E. Howard. Who also wrote some Cthulhu mythos stories,
BTW.
> Then again, he wrote them before he turned into a screaming basket
> case, I suppose.
>
>
>
--
Fred Stone
aa# 1369
Cthulhu for President! Why vote for a lesser evil?
Douglas Berry
over the cliffs of alt.atheism on Mon, 30 Aug 2004 14:00:55 +0100 by
Zoog, minion of Zathar. As he fell, he screamed:
So? Does he believe he's a Klingon? Or is it something he does for
fun with his friends. I know several members of the local Klingon
Assault Group. A couple of lawyers, one cop, a RN, a few business
types. Once a month or so they get together in costume and have fun.
--
Douglas E. Berry Do the OBVIOUS thing to send e-mail
Atheist #2147, Atheist Vet #5
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as
when they do it from religious conviction."
Blaise Pascal (1623-1662), Pense'es, #894.
Scott
> Scott wrote:
> > "Jez" <iced_...@NOSPAMdsl.pipex.com> wrote in message
> > news:4130a617$0$20253$cc9e...@news-text.dial.pipex.com...
> >
> >>Scott wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>"Jez" <iced_...@NOSPAMdsl.pipex.com> wrote in message
> >>>news:41309b71$0$20246$cc9e...@news-text.dial.pipex.com...
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>Scott wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>"Jez" <iced_...@NOSPAMdsl.pipex.com> wrote in message
> >>>>>news:413093c5$0$20244$cc9e...@news-text.dial.pipex.com...
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>ohoe wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>Talking Tolkien
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>I write much about atheists and their atheism on this blog site;
> >>>>>>>partly because I cannot fathom what it must be like to live without
> >>>>>>>any sense of transcendent purpose and hope in life; partly because
I
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>No, you just don't understand what it is to deal with reality.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>I'd bet neither do you.
> >>>>
> >>>>You don't see me praying to non-existant entities.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>human rights are bull shit.
> >>
> >>Oh really ? Not an American by any chance are you ?
> >
> >
> > <set a bait and made a catch>
> >
> > Of course I'm an american. I'm also a realiest.
>
> Yeah sure dude.
Yep. I do that at times to set up an agument.
>
> >
> > "Human rights are only a convenient fantasy" - stoney.
> >
> > Why is that a true statement *if* materialism is true like stoney
believes
> > it is? Because if materialism is true, there is no such thing as moral
> > progress. What can you measure said progress against? Nothing. You have
no
> > materialistic means to make an empirical measurement by. Nothing at all.
For
> > moral progress to exist (and therefore some kind of inherent human
rights -
> > aka natural rights) you need a Moral Truth, an ethical moral realism.
> > Materialism denies all of that and says morality is all Meta-ethical
> > Relativism and therefore only subjective perception. Moral truth, moral
> > realism, moral progress, inherent rights of man, and god all exist in
the
> > same metaphysical existence. All that can be said about morality is that
> > preferences are relative to within cultures and individuals, cultural
> > relativism and subjectivism. If materialism is true than the Americanism
is
> > built upon a fantasy. Jefferson, I believe, knew he had to *ground* his
> > human rights on intuitionism as being endowed from his deistic creator
> > because nature didn't afford him the luxury.
> >
>
> Dunno what the fuck your ranting about there.
Yes. I know.
If you believe humans have rights by virtue of being human (circular) or you
believe those rights come from sowhere else and you are a naturalists, don't
you think you should be able to explain the natural source for those endowed
human rights? You have to link moral realism/truth to natural causes. If you
can't but still believe in such things as moral progress your epistemology
is a factual rejection materialism/naturalism. You will have lost any
creditibility in demanding empirical evidence from a theist for his god when
you yourself believe in something (moral progress) that has no evidenctial
support.
http://www-phil.tamu.edu/~b-everman/victor/moral/Relativism_handout.pdf
> >
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>You prefer fantasies, just like little children do.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>so do you.
> >>>>
> >>>>No, I prefer the world, a world that is obviously devoid of any 'God'.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>hince a-theism.
> >>
> >>Yip.
> >>
> >>>
> >>>>Why do you belivers have to post your trash to alt.atheism ??
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>Works both ways. Atheist cross post from alt.atheism. Even in replies.
I
> >>>might be mistaken but I don't recall seeing you being critical to
Editor
> >
> > of
> >
> >>>Evil Bible.
> >>
> >>I don't often comment on any of his posts.
> >>
> >>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>WE ARE NOT INTERESTED IN YOUR 'GODS'!!!!
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>Ya, I know. Most of you are interested in your own mythologies.
> >>
> >>Actually we have no mythologies. None. Nada...Zilch.
> >
> >
> > Do you believe in humanism and materialism/naturalism? If you do, you
> > believe in an oxymoron. Humanism is inherently moral cognitive while
> > materialism is inherently moral non-cognitive. If you think otherwise,
you
> > have a mythology.
>
> 'Believe in' strange phrase that.
> I know of the existence of such philosophies, but whether I believe in
> them is another matter.
Hence, the question
Scott
wbarwell
Did you know they have their own religion?
Its called Juche.
--
Senator Waxman's searchable database of iraq war lies.
www.house.gov/reform/min/features/iraq_on_the_record/
A good portal to more lies and Bush stupidity is to be found at
www.failureisimpossible.com - Go to the index and go to
"L" for lies. All you need to know about Bush when you
step into the voting booth. Bush is a liar and surrounds
himself with fellow liars.
Cheerful Charlie
Scott
"wbarwell" <wbar...@munnnged.mylinuxisp.com> wrote in message
news:41336648$0$172$811e...@news.mylinuxisp.com...
> Scott wrote:
> > It's natural for people to be religious. North Koreans have their opiate
> > in their "Dear Leader".
>
> Did you know they have their own religion?
> Its called Juche.
http://www.itf-information.com/patterns16.htm
JUCHE is a philosophical idea [not religion] that man is the master of
everything and decides everything. In other words, the idea that man is the
master of the world and his own destiny. It is said that this idea was
rooted in Baekdu Mountain which symbolizes the spirit of the Korean people.
The diagram represents Baekdu mountain.
Wayne Throop
: "Real sin"? If most atheists are correct and materialism/naturalism is the
: true nature of reality then there is no "real sin" because moral progress
: can't exist as anything other than an illusion.....just like gods.
You say that almost as if it were a bad thing.
This reminds me of the "free will" discussion a while back on rasfw. If
one insists that "free will" must mean "your actions are unpredictable",
even if your mental state is in principle predictable, then it's really
better not to have free will, since otherwise your decisions would not
determine (would not be the cause of) your actions. Not quite the same
situation, but use of the term "moral" to exclude things based on, eg,
iterated prisoner's dilemma leading pretty much to the golden rule,
and to insist that "moral" can only mean "what god says", is to define
all the usefulness out of the term.
IMO.
Wayne Throop thr...@sheol.org http://sheol.org/throopw
Wayne Throop
: Because if materialism is true, there is no such thing as moral
: progress. What can you measure said progress against?
Effectiveness. Which does not always mean "screw everybody else".
As analyses of evolution of cooperation make clear.
jwk
Since we aren't organized, there isn't a pat answer to that one. For
what it is worth, I consider myself a strong atheist because I have
absolutely no belief in mysticism. Not gods, goddesses, four-leaf
clovers, crystals, ESP, nothing that requires lots of imagination and
provides no proof. But that is only my interpetation.
jwk
Dave
> Many atheists are big fans of the works of J R R Tolkien.
> [...]
Many Christians are big fans of J.R.R. Tolkien. Pull your head out.
raven1
<spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>As for the origin of the name Bilbo, the closest I could get was the
>entries in Appendix F of LotR: "To their man-children they [hobbits]
>usually gave names that had no meaning at all in their daily language
>[...]. Of this kind are Bilbo, Bungo, Polo, Lotho and so on." The one
>rule was to have male first names generally ending in an 'o' or an 'e'.
Which is interesting, as the Took and Brandybuck family trees in
Appendix C contain *zero* names that follow this rule, and the Gamgee
family tree has only a couple, although the Baggins family tree
generally adheres to it
raven1
<alt-a...@org.webmaster> wrote:
Actually I have a friend whose nickname is Bilbo, from his resemblance
to the Rankin-Bass cartoon depiction. He bears it proudly.