Working Minor Aspects
David Hecht
considered major,i.e the conjunction, trine, square, sextile and
opposition. Yet, the divisibility of the circle invites other
possibilities which have been documented and are used with discretion by
astrologers.
"Minor aspects", if effective, are not likely to generate as strong a
connection as the "major" ones do. This brings to mind a notion that it
might be possible to augment the viability of these connections through
an active/passive strategy which involves working more readily at the
meanings of those considered positive while accepting more readily the
effects of those considered negative. The latter effect will seemingly
not be as powerful as the negative effects of "major" aspects and thus
should be able to be handled by simply allowing for the energies and
riding them out.
The "positive" one's, however, may provide an incentive to apply
yourself towards gaining the benefits they suggest. Such effort could
spell the difference between a "minor" and "major" effect. Any thoughts?
Dave
The best to everyone, now and always
dante rosati
exten...@webtv.net (David Hecht) wrote:
Harmonics generally decline in strength the higher one goes, so "minor"
aspects would indicate a more attenuated resonance of the planets
participating. The number symbolism of higher harmonic aspects needs to be
explored. I think the notion of positive or negative aspects is a
throwback to superstitious astrology: all aspects have a positive and
negative side to them which are potentials left to the free will of the
native to manifest to varying degrees.
regards,
dante
SongWeaver
PEACE, LOVE, JOY TO ALL.......
LMcKevitt
septile should be given more attention than it is, corresponding as it does
with the 7th harmonic chart. I have been trying to accumulate anecdotal
information on occurrences in lives when the Progressed Sun forms a septile
aspect to the natal Sun. (This should happen sometime between ages 51 and 53.)
There is very little written about transiting septiles--it might be interesting
if everyone would figure out what degrees septile their natal planets, then
look back and see what happened around that time in your chart. Septiles don't
get more than a 1 degree orb, if that.
The quintile (72 degrees) is also a "major" minor aspect, usually shows a lot
of creative intuition if it is a natal aspect. I've also noticed that
transiting and progressed quintiles tend to show up when major winnings occur,
usually involving Jupiter or the ruler of the 5th house.
Re the other aspects--semi-sextiles, semi-squares, etc.--I just don't see their
effects. They always seem to be "after the fact" aspects,that somebody brings
up after a major event, and--maybe this is just me, but-- a major event is
going to be accompanied by something bigger than one of the "semi's." I haven't
really looked at them too broadly in progressed charts. - Lauren
David Hecht
these "higher harmonics" are inclined to manifest in a more subtle or
less effective manner that it might be worthwhile to give them a little
nudge, that is for the "positive" ones(or whichever one's you prefer to
give energy to void of judgement)to see if the effect can be enhanced. I
have, for example, a very tight "quintile" between "jupiter and saturn"
which has yet to really pay off. If it were a major aspect, it would
seem that the combination of industry and opportunity would merge into
some sort of specific success story. In this case, it appears to require
a "little nudge", for example.
This would mean that, instead of waiting around for a mystical sort of
circumstamce to occur, perhaps it would be best to look at this as
though it were a "major" aspect and put some energy into it instead of
denying it's possibilities just because it is a "higher harmonic" and
perhaps missing out since the inherent strength here is not likely to be
enough to carry the day.
Scott
more psychological. They don't tend to manifest as events, but rather
attitudes (perhaps even unconscious ones). You are correct that as a major
aspect, the planets that are in quintile aspect in your chart might merge
into some kind of success story, but a quintile seems unlikely to manifest
that way. If it were a square, it would be quite energetic in its
expression (energy which may be harnessed ("good") or overwhelming ("bad")).
But a quintile doesn't have that kind of energy.
So, I believe that you are talking about consciously investing it with so
much energy that it, so to speak, "turns into" a square (with the added
benefit that, since the energy you give it is controllable (being
consciously applied) it will harnessable rather than overwhelming).
Well, I tend to the philosophy that if it were meant to be a square, it
would BE a square. Perhaps a little fatalistic, but so be it. The quintile
aspect forms a part of you that would no longer mesh with the rest of you if
it were treated as a different aspect. It forms part of a whole pattern
with the other aspects in your chart that cannot be disentangled.
I believe that we should not fight the aspects in our charts. Pouring
energy into a planetary relationship that may not be able to handle that
influx is like putting too much electricity through a circuit. That's why
electricians developed fuses! Blowing an astrological fuse doesn't sound
too pleasant to me.
The quintile aspect, like all the major and minor aspects, has a role to
play in its natural form. We should try and determine what part each aspect
plays, and work with each in that manner, rather than trying to force them
to be something they are not.
Scott
>David Hecht wrote in message
<23559-36...@newsd-124.bryant.webtv.net>...
>No one seems to be addressing my pro-active concept here.It is because
>these "higher harmonics" are inclined to manifest in a more subtle or
>less effective manner...
SeaGtGruff
hours, but I can't right now.
For the moment, I just want to point out some things which are probably rather
obvious. Minor aspects won't have the same strength in everyone's charts. It
depends on the number of aspects of a particular harmonic, as well as how
connected they are in the chart.
For example, I have the Moon quintile Saturn, the Moon decile (or
semi-quintile) Jupiter, and Jupiter decile Saturn, forming a midpoint pattern
(Jupiter = Moon/Saturn). (There are other points that connect with this
pattern, but I'm trying to keep things simple, so I'll ignore them.)
In terms of transits, progressions, or directions, anything that makes a
conjunction, opposition, quintile, bi-quintile, decile, or tre-decile to my
Moon will also be in one of these aspects with my Jupiter and Saturn. Thus,
it's intuitively obvious that my Moon, Jupiter, and Saturn will be more
"sensitive" to transiting quintiles, bi-quintiles, deciles, or tre-deciles. If
a transiting planet were to make a quintile to some other planet in my chart--
one which does not have a 5H or 10H aspect with another natal planet or point--
then it will probably have a less noticeable effect.
It's really a bit more complicated than that, because of the way harmonics
combine to create other harmonics. For example, if someone has the Sun
opposite Mars, but neither the Sun nor Mars have any 5H or 10H aspects to them,
then a transiting planet which forms a quintile to the Sun will also form a
tre-decile to Mars, again leading to a more noticeable effect. This is similar
to the way a transiting planet which forms a trine to the Sun will also form a
sextile to Mars, thus leading to a more noticeable effect.
Furthermore, the phenomenon of simultaneous aspects from a single transiting
planet can partially explain why aspects with very close orbs are more
effective than aspects with wider orbs. If a natal aspect is exact, the two
planets will be aspected by a transiting planet at exactly the same time. If a
natal aspect has a wider orb, the two planets will be aspected at slightly
different times; and the wider the orb, the greater the gap between the
transiting aspects to each planet.
Then there's another situation: a minor aspect between two transiting planets.
For many people, that aspect might pass by without any noticeable effect. But
if the transiting planets aspect one or more planets in someone's chart, an
effect is more likely to be noticed. For example, if the transiting Sun and
transiting Jupiter form a quintile with each other, and they also form a
conjunction, opposition, quintile, bi-quintile, decile, or tre-decile to a
natal planet, an effect is more likely.
I should add that this works with transits to progressed or directed planets as
well, or some other combination.
Michael Rideout
ZeroZero Magazine
<da...@interport.net> writes
>Harmonics generally decline in strength the higher one goes, so "minor"
>aspects would indicate a more attenuated resonance of the planets
>participating. The number symbolism of higher harmonic aspects needs to be
>explored.
I tend to feel that every angle a planet can make from 0-360 degrees has
some sort of significance. I read that ancient astrologers had lists of
many of these different angles. Does anyone have this infoavailable to
them?
Linden
Gail Klein
>Linden
The ancient Greeks used the 13th harmonic chart. I don't remember
off hand what it was called, but they considered it very important.
I have an NCGR conference lecture tape about it (I think it was
Linda Hill's lecture, not sure*) which is excellent. According to
her lecture, this 13H chart can be more revealing of things like
vocation than the ordinary 0H chart.
(* if I'm wrong about whose lecture it was, I'll try to find that
tape and post a correction. It's really a wonderful lecture and
I'd want to attribute it to the correct person!)
And in Vedic Astrology the 9th harmonic chart is used to determine
marriage, AFAIK. Michael Rideout would probably know if the 9H is
based on lunar mansions?
I have the book "Harmonic Charts" by David Hamblin, and it's very good
for the lower harmonics.
Gail
--
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SeaGtGruff
> The ancient Greeks used the 13th harmonic chart. I don't
> remember off hand what it was called, but they considered
> it very important. I have an NCGR conference lecture
> tape about it (I think it was Linda Hill's lecture, not sure*)
> which is excellent. According to her lecture, this 13H chart
> can be more revealing of things like vocation than the
> ordinary 0H chart.
>
> (* if I'm wrong about whose lecture it was, I'll try to find that
> tape and post a correction. It's really a wonderful lecture
> and I'd want to attribute it to the correct person!)
>
> And in Vedic Astrology the 9th harmonic chart is used to
> determine marriage, AFAIK. Michael Rideout would
> probably know if the 9H is based on lunar mansions?
>
> I have the book "Harmonic Charts" by David Hamblin, and
> it's very good for the lower harmonics.
The Greeks used "dodekamatoria" or something like that (I'm almost certain I'm
spelling it wrong). The first time I saw anything about it was in the early
1980s, while at college. It was mentioned in a book I found in the university
library, either Neugebauer's book on early Greek horoscopes, or another book
that referred to Neugebauer's book. I later found an article about it in Rob
Hand's _Essays on Astrology_ (which I don't have handy right now).
The term refers to twelfths, which would be dwads-- as I'll get to in a
minute-- but they were based on the 13th Harmonic (as we call it today).
Briefly, you calculate the 13H positions for the chart, and then insert them in
the standard chart (which is the *1H* chart, not the 0H chart). Thus, the 13H
positions weren't used by themselves. I don't remember much about this from my
college days, but Rob Hand wrote that the 13H positions were thought to
reinforce indications in the 1H chart (he referred to it as "underscoring," as
I recall).
Rob Hand used his own chart as one example. He noted that an interest in
astrology is often linked to a Mercury-Uranus aspect. In his 1H chart, Mercury
and Uranus are about 166 degrees apart, which isn't usually recognized as an
aspect (at least, not a *major* aspect). However, his 13H Mercury and 13H
Uranus are almost exactly conjunct, which helps to explain his interest in
astrology.
This technique is certainly intriguing, but I haven't studied it enough to have
much of an opinion on its value. In my own chart, it does give interesting
results. For example, I have Mercury trine Uranus, which correlates with my
interest in astrology. My 13H Mercury is conjunct my 1H Uranus and trine my 1H
Mercury, and my 13H Uranus is opposite my 1H Uranus and sextile my 1H Mercury
(my 13H Mercury and 13H Uranus are opposed). So according to what Rob Hand
said, the 13H positions underscore the indication that I'm interested in
astrology-- or in computers, or in unusual ideas, or in other Mercury-Uranus
types of things.
As I said, the term "dodekamatoria" (which I'm probably spelling wrong; I think
I'm leaving out a syllable) refers to twelfths, *not* thirteenths. However,
the Greeks apparently calculated the 13H positions by multiplying the 1H
positions by *12*, and then adding the 1H positions (12 + 1 = 13).
Rob Hand noted that in the 13th Harmonic, there are 13 complete zodiacs within
the zodiac; each sign is divided into 13 parts, and each part corresponds to a
sign. As in the dwads, the first part of each sign corresponds to the sign
itself, and the remaining parts follow the order of the zodiac, such that the
parts of Aries are Aries, Taurus, Gemini, Cancer, Leo, and so on.
But in the case of the dwads, there are only 12 parts to each sign, so the
sequence has gaps in it at the cusps of the signs. That is, the last dwad of
Aries corresponds to Pisces, and the first dwad of Taurus corresponds to
Taurus, so Aries is missing between them. In the case of the dodeka-whatevers,
the last part of each sign is the sign itself, so there are no gaps in the
sequence.
Rob Hand speculated that the dwads might have been a distorted version of the
dodeka-whatevers. And as I was playing around with them, I noticed something
interesting. What I was trying to do was figure out which degrees of the
zodiac would form specific aspects between the 1H and 13H charts. For example,
if a planet is at 0 degrees of a sign in the 1H chart, it will also be at 0
degrees of the same sign in the 13H chart. This is what I noticed:
1H chart 13H chart
0 Aries 0 Aries
2.5 Aries 2.5 Taurus
5 Aries 5 Gemini
7.5 Aries 7.5 Cancer
10 Aries 10 Leo
12.5 Aries 12.5 Virgo
15 Aries 15 Libra
17.5 Aries 17.5 Scorpio
20 Aries 20 Sagittarius
22.5 Aries 22.5 Capricorn
25 Aries 25 Aquarius
27.5 Aries 27.5 Pisces
0 Taurus 0 Taurus
2.5 Taurus 2.5 Gemini
etc.
That is, if a planet is at 20 Aries in the 1H chart, it will be at 20
Sagittarius in the 13H chart. If a planet is at 12.5 Gemini in the 1H chart,
it will be at 12.5 Scorpio in the 13H chart. And so on with other positions.
Note the pattern of degrees: 0, 2.5, 5, 7.5, 10, 12.5, 15, 17.5, 20, 22.5, 25,
27.5, then 0 again. These are the degrees (or half-degrees) at which the dwads
begin. And note that the pattern of signs is also identical with the dwads.
This makes me wonder if there is something to Rob Hand's speculation. Perhaps
the Greeks had noticed these patterns of degrees and signs, and had used them
as a kind of mnemonic device, or a shorthand method for calculating the
dodeka-whatevers? Thus, if a planet is at 15 degrees of a sign, then its
dodeka-whatever position will be at 15 degrees of the opposite sign. Perhaps
this then got corrupted into the system of dwads?
Of course, it might also be that the dwads were simply felt to be more rational
and elegant. After all, there are 12 signs of the zodiac, so the the idea of
dividing each sign into a zodiac unto itself has a certain attractiveness. And
as far as numbers are concerned, twelfths of a sign are *much* easier to work
with than thirteenths of a sign!
In Vedic astrology, the navamsa or 9H chart is used in connection with
marriage-- such as choosing the marriage partner, or choosing the best marriage
date-- but it's also used for other things. I'm not very knowledgeable about
Vedic astrology, but the few books I do have say that the navamsa chart is
supposed to show the native's ultimate path in life. The navamsa chart is very
important, and is one of three charts deemed to be essential in Vedic
astrology-- the normal (1H) chart, the navamsa (9H) chart, and the Moon chart
(the same as the 1H chart, except the Moon's position is used as the
"Ascendant," so it uses "Lunar houses"). In a few of my other books, the 9th
Harmonic is said to indicate that which completes us, which could be our spouse
(our "other half"), our career, or something else. It might also be possible
to draw parallels with the meaning of "9" in numerology.
The navamsa or 9H chart is *not* based on the nakshatras or Lunar mansions, at
least not per se. In Hindu, Arabian, and Chinese astrology, there are 28 Lunar
mansions, which is where the "critical degrees" come from (they're the cusps of
the Lunar mansions). Notice that 28 is *not* a multiple of 9, so the Lunar
mansions are not related to the navamsa chart in any way. *However*, Vedic
astrologers have another set of nakshatras or Lunar mansions, which divides the
zodiac into *27* parts, and 27 *is* a multiple of 9. In fact, that seems to be
the reason for using this other set of nakshatras, although it isn't related to
the navamsas per se.
Rather, each nakshatra is ruled by a specific "planet," and nine "planets are
used-- the Sun, Moon, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, the North Node,
and the South Node (but they don't go in that order). By using 27 nakshatras
instead of 28, the sequence of rulers is repeated three times, such that you
can begin at any one of the nakshatras (the one in which the natal Moon is
placed) and follow the sequence of rulers around the zodiac, with no gaps in
the sequence. This is important in predictive work based on the dasas or
planetary periods.
Even though the 27 nakshatras aren't based on the navamsas per se, there is a
connection of sorts between them, because there are 108 navamsas in the zodiac
(9 x 12 = 108), and four navamsas equal one nakshatra (108 / 27 = 4).
Michael Rideout
ZeroZero Magazine
writes
>
>The ancient Greeks used the 13th harmonic chart. I don't remember
>off hand what it was called, but they considered it very important.
>I have an NCGR conference lecture tape about it (I think it was
>Linda Hill's lecture, not sure*) which is excellent. According to
>her lecture, this 13H chart can be more revealing of things like
>vocation than the ordinary 0H chart.
I take it you mean that the aspect was 360/13 = 26.7 degree aspect?
If not, is this something related to the "Harmonic Chart Factor" setting
in astrolog? Astrolog cannot use a harmonic chart factor of 0. Mine is
set to 1 which is as far as I know pretty standard. Even if this option
has nothing to do with the info presented above, could someone explain
precisely what this option in Astrolog represents?
Also, is there a way to change the 'names' of the standard aspects in
AStrolog. Is there a data file that can be edited so that the 26.7 or a
23 degree aspect is included not only in aspect degree, but has a name
attributed to it as well.
>And in Vedic Astrology the 9th harmonic chart is used to determine
>marriage, AFAIK. Michael Rideout would probably know if the 9H is
>based on lunar mansions?
The ninth - Novile (40 degree) right? The only info I have on this
aspect is that it represents a very 'spiritual number', and that it
represents completion. Have have not used this aspect at all since I
haven't a clue how its practical use could aide analysis.
>I have the book "Harmonic Charts" by David Hamblin, and it's very good
>for the lower harmonics.
Noted.
Cheers,
Linden
Gail Klein
>In article <769jej$m...@panix2.panix.com>, Gail Klein <g...@panix.com>
>writes
>>
>>The ancient Greeks used the 13th harmonic chart. I don't remember
>>off hand what it was called, but they considered it very important.
>>I have an NCGR conference lecture tape about it (I think it was
>>Linda Hill's lecture, not sure*) which is excellent. According to
>>her lecture, this 13H chart can be more revealing of things like
>>vocation than the ordinary 0H chart.
>I take it you mean that the aspect was 360/13 = 26.7 degree aspect?
Yep.
>If not, is this something related to the "Harmonic Chart Factor" setting
>in astrolog? Astrolog cannot use a harmonic chart factor of 0. Mine is
>set to 1 which is as far as I know pretty standard. Even if this option
>has nothing to do with the info presented above, could someone explain
>precisely what this option in Astrolog represents?
I was mistaken when I wrote 0H, it should be 1H. 360/0 = 0
and 360/1 = 360. Please forgive my currently Neptune-hazed
mind...
If it's set to 1, it sounds as if this is indeed a feature for
computing harmonic charts. Stick 13 in place of 1 and see what
you get.
>Also, is there a way to change the 'names' of the standard aspects in
>AStrolog. Is there a data file that can be edited so that the 26.7 or a
>23 degree aspect is included not only in aspect degree, but has a name
>attributed to it as well.
Unfortunately, I'm not familiar enough with Astrolog to know that.
>>And in Vedic Astrology the 9th harmonic chart is used to determine
>>marriage, AFAIK. Michael Rideout would probably know if the 9H is
>>based on lunar mansions?
>The ninth - Novile (40 degree) right?
Yes, that's it.
>The only info I have on this
>aspect is that it represents a very 'spiritual number', and that it
>represents completion. Have have not used this aspect at all since I
>haven't a clue how its practical use could aide analysis.
I don't know how it's used in Vedic astrology, but what I've
done with all my harmonic charts is looked at them and tried to
find the aspects that don't show up in the regular natal 1H
chart. If I recall, that's what David Hamblin says is significant
in his book. For instance, in my 5H chart (quintile aspect) I have
a Mercury Saturn Uranus T-square. Don't know quite what it "means",
but I don't have any conventional connection between those planets
in the normal chart. There's also an exact yod of Moon Mars Mercury,
with Mercury at the apex. Presumably this could be interpreted
something like: a creative or inventive use of agitated emotions
(Mars and Moon) for thought forming or communication (Mercury),
or: active (Mars) mind (Moon) creates logic (Mercury).
The T-Square of Merc Saturn and Uranus might reflect my creative
uses of, or efforts to use, astrology.
As far as I know, David Hamblin doesn't say these charts' positions
need be placed into the natal as if it were a synastry comparison.
But Michael Rideout has made the point that this is what was done
with the 13th harmonic chart by the ancients, and indeed I remember
from the lecture tape that this is how the example charts were
interpreted.
Gail
>>I have the book "Harmonic Charts" by David Hamblin, and it's very good
>>for the lower harmonics.
>Noted.
>Cheers,
>Linden
--
Gail Klein
>I have developed a healthy respect for the septile (51.5) aspect. The
>septile should be given more attention than it is, corresponding as it does
>with the 7th harmonic chart. I have been trying to accumulate anecdotal
>information on occurrences in lives when the Progressed Sun forms a septile
>aspect to the natal Sun. (This should happen sometime between ages 51 and 53.)
>There is very little written about transiting septiles--it might be interesting
>if everyone would figure out what degrees septile their natal planets, then
>look back and see what happened around that time in your chart. Septiles don't
>get more than a 1 degree orb, if that.
This is a very interesting point. The Chiron return happens also
at about age 50, or 51. Zane Stein has some material in his Chiron
book about the meaning of the Chiron return. If I remember the
gist of it, it's about learning to offer one's experience for altruistic
rather than personal gain reasons, which seems to dovetail interestingly
with the p Sun septile n Sun that you mention here, which I'd never
considered before. Thank you for making this point!
>The quintile (72 degrees) is also a "major" minor aspect, usually shows a lot
>of creative intuition if it is a natal aspect. I've also noticed that
>transiting and progressed quintiles tend to show up when major winnings occur,
>usually involving Jupiter or the ruler of the 5th house.
Interesting, I'll have to look for them from now on.
>Re the other aspects--semi-sextiles, semi-squares, etc.--I just don't see their
>effects. They always seem to be "after the fact" aspects,that somebody brings
>up after a major event, and--maybe this is just me, but-- a major event is
>going to be accompanied by something bigger than one of the "semi's." I haven't
>really looked at them too broadly in progressed charts. - Lauren
As far as progressed aspects, I do notice effects from semi-sextiles
and quincunxes, and also progressed midpoint structures.
Gail
SeaGtGruff
> I take it you mean that the aspect was 360/13 = 26.7 degree
> aspect?
The 13th Harmonic contains all multiples of the 27:41:32.31 aspect:
360 * 1/13 = 27:41:32.31
360 * 2/13 = 55:23:04.62
360 * 3/13 = 83:04:36.92
360 * 4/13 = 110:46:09.23
360 * 5/13 = 138:27:41.54
360 * 6/13 = 166:09:13.85
360 * 7/13 = 193:50:46.15
360 * 8/13 = 221:32:18.46
360 * 9/13 = 249:13:50.77
360 * 10/13 = 276:55:23.08
360 * 11/13 = 304:36:55.38
360 * 12/13 = 332:18:27.69
360 * 13/13 = 360:00:00.00
If you draw a 13H chart, any planets separated by the above angles will show up
as being "conjunct." The way you draw up a chart for a given harmonic is to
multiply everything in the chart by the desired harmonic number, and then
reduce the products to 360 degrees or less.
For example, my Sun is at 11:48:12 Capricorn, or 281:48:12 in "absolute
longitude" (0 Capricorn is 270 degrees in "absolute longitude," so 11 Capricorn
is 270 + 11 = 281 degrees). If I multiply 281:48:12 by 13, I get 3663:26:36,
which needs to be reduced. The easiest way to reduce it is to divide by 360,
subtract the integer portion, and multiply by 360. Dividing 3663:26:36 (or
3663.443333) by 360, I get 10.17623148. Then I subtract 10 (the integer part),
getting 0.176231481. Then I multiply that by 360, getting 63.4433333, or
63:26:36, so the Sun is at 3:26:36 Gemini in my 13H chart.
My Moon is at 18:14:11 Libra, which is 27:04:23 Taurus in my 13H chart. Thus,
my Sun and Moon are "conjunct" in my 13H chart-- albeit it's an "out-of-sign
conjunction"-- so that means my Sun and Moon are separated by an angle of
27:41:32.31, or one of its multiples. If I take the shortest distance between
them, I get 83:34:01, which is about 3/13ths of the zodiac. If I subtract the
Sun from the Moon to find the actual phase arc (the faster body minus the
slower body), I get 276:25:59, which is about 10/13ths of the zodiac.
> If not, is this something related to the "Harmonic Chart
> Factor" setting in astrolog? Astrolog cannot use a harmonic
> chart factor of 0. Mine is set to 1 which is as far as I know
> pretty standard. Even if this option has nothing to do with
> the info presented above, could someone explain precisely
> what this option in Astrolog represents?
Yes, that setting is used to generate harmonic charts. For example, rather
than doing the calculations myself, I could just enter "13" as the "Harmonic
Chart Factor." That gives the Sun's position as 3:26:32 Gemini, and the Moon's
position as 27:04:22 Taurus. Note that these aren't precisely the same as the
figures I got when I did the calculations myself, as I was assuming that the
positions were given in whole seconds, but Astrolog was working with fractions
of seconds.
When you use Astrolog to generate an harmonic chart, it uses your natal 1H
house cusps, but it's standard in harmonic astrology to use equal houses
starting from the Ascendant's harmonic position. Thus, you should go to the
"Calculation Settings," change the "Solar Chart Setting" to "Object On
Ascendant," and enter "Ascendant" where it says "Use This Planet." Then you'll
need to change the "House System" setting to "Equal." This will display the
harmonic chart in the standard format. Once you've changed those settings, you
can keep changing the "Harmonic Chart Factor" to whatever other harmonic
numbers you're interested in.
To use the Greek method mentioned in the other posts, set the harmonic number
to 13, write down the new positions, and then insert them into your regular
(1H) chart. Astrolog can't show your 1H and 13H charts at the same time, so
you'll need to draw the chart on paper yourself.
> Also, is there a way to change the 'names' of the standard
> aspects in AStrolog. Is there a data file that can be edited so
> that the 26.7 or a 23 degree aspect is included not only in
> aspect degree, but has a name attributed to it as well.
As far as I know, the only way to do that is to edit the source code to change
the aspect names, and then recompile the program. What I do is just change the
degrees of the aspects to be whichever aspects I want to use, save the aspect
listing to a text file, and then edit the text file to replace the aspect
abbreviations as needed. For example, if I've redefined the septile to be 108
degrees (or a tre-decile), then I would use a text editor to replace "Sep" with
"TDc," or something like that. It would be nice if you could add new aspects
without redefining the existing aspects, or redefine *and* rename the existing
aspects, but you can't do either without modifying and recompiling the source
code.
> The ninth - Novile (40 degree) right? The only info I have
> on this aspect is that it represents a very 'spiritual number',
> and that it represents completion. Have have not used this
> aspect at all since I haven't a clue how its practical use
> could aide analysis.
Yes, the 9th Harmonic consists of the novile and its multiples:
40 degrees = 360 * 1/9 (waxing novile)
80 degrees = 360 * 2/9 (waxing bi-novile)
120 degrees = 360 * 3/9 (waxing tri-novile, or waxing trine)
160 degrees = 360 * 4/9 (waxing quadra-novile)
200 degrees = 360 * 5/9 (waning quadra-novile)
240 degrees = 360 * 6/9 (waning tri-novile, or waning trine)
280 degrees = 360 * 7/9 (waning bi-novile)
320 degrees = 360 * 8/9 (waning novile)
360 degrees = 360 * 9/9 (conjunction)
The number 3 has religious implications in Christianity (the Trinity), and
perhaps also in other religions. Note that 9 is three 3s, so that's at least
partly why 9 is said to be a very spiritual number. In the decimal system, 9
is the highest digit, or the largest 1-digit number, and it's followed by 10,
which begins a new cycle at a higher level. This explains where the idea of
"completion" comes from-- 9 completes the cycle of digits (1 through 9, or 0
through 9), and then a new cycle begins (10 through 19). Of course, if we were
using numbers written in some other system-- such as the duodecimal system, or
the hexadecimal system, or the vigesimal system-- then 9 wouldn't be the
largest digit!
Michael Rideout
SeaGtGruff
> The quintile (72 degrees) is also a "major" minor aspect,
> usually shows a lot of creative intuition if it is a natal aspect.
> I've also noticed that transiting and progressed quintiles
> tend to show up when major winnings occur, usually
> involving Jupiter or the ruler of the 5th house.
As I mentioned in another thread ("Progressed Cusps"), I won a videogame
contest in 1984. I know that sounds silly, but it was definitely a "major
winning" for me, because the prize was a bejeweled gold and platinum chalice
created by the Franklin Mint, supposedly valued at $25,000!
At the time, transiting Neptune, Jupiter, and Venus were conjunct within a
1.5-degree orb (Venus at 29:57 Sagittarius, Neptune at 0:13 Capricorn, and
Jupiter at 1:17 Capricorn). This multiple conjunction triggered a large 20H
configuration in my natal chart, which involves a quintile, Jupiter, and my
Fifth House! This configuration consists of the following:
The Moon - 18:14 Libra
The North Node - 18:19 Libra
Cusp of the Fifth House - 6:15 Scorpio (Placidus)
Neptune - 6:36 Scorpio
Jupiter - 24:20 Scorpio (in the Fifth House)
Saturn - 29:42 Sagittarius
The Midheaven - 0:56 Aries
The East Point - 0:47 Cancer
I won't bother to list all of the aspects, but they're multiples of 18 degrees,
and include the Moon quintile Saturn, Jupiter at the Moon/Saturn midpoint
(decile both the Moon and Saturn), and Neptune at the Moon/Jupiter midpoint
(vigintile both the Moon and Jupiter).
Furthermore, the traditional ruler of the Fifth House is Mars, and transiting
Mars was at 7:18 Scorpio, also triggering that natal 20H configuration! The
modern ruler (or co-ruler) of the Fifth House is Pluto, and transiting Saturn
was at 15:37 Scorpio, making a quintile to my natal Pluto at 4:03 Virgo, as
well as a very close square to my natal Uranus at 15:36 Leo (which is in my
Second House). My natal Uranus and Pluto are also in a 20H aspect-- Uranus
vigintile Pluto-- but it isn't connected to the aforementioned 20H
configuration, except at higher harmonics. For example, transiting Saturn was
at my natal Jupiter/Neptune midpoint, so it was in 40H aspects with Jupiter and
Neptune.
It's interesting that my winning came as a result of playing a videogame-- a
recreational activity-- and the transits were triggering natal aspects and
configurations with planets in the Fifth House or Leo, with two of the
transiting planets being in the Fifth House.
By the way, before the contest I had looked at the transits for the upcoming
event, and when I saw that transiting Neptune was going to be conjunct my natal
Saturn, I was afraid that it spelled disaster (being woken from a dream or
fantasy by cold, hard reality), because I had absolutely no confidence in my
ability to win the contest. Consequently, I predicted that I would lose the
contest!
After I won, I realized that my interpretation would perhaps be more consistent
with transiting *Saturn* conjunct natal *Neptune*, rather than the other way
around. And while I don't remember if I'd taken transiting Saturn square my
natal Uranus in the Second House into account, I'm sure I would have assumed an
unexpected *misfortune*, rather than an unexpected win. The fact that
transiting Jupiter and Venus were also conjunct my natal Saturn was undoubtedly
a major factor, but I think the various 5H, 10H, and 20H aspects were probably
a big help, because as I was playing the game in the contest, I suddenly "saw"
the pattern in my mind, and so was able to complete the game before anyone else
did.
Normally, aspects of such high harmonics are extremely weak, and can probably
be ignored. But when a lot of them are tied together to form a large harmonic
configuration, they become more significant. That's why I don't like to ignore
the minor aspects, even the very minor aspects.
Michael Rideout
LMcKevitt
50. One common thing I've observed among many people during Chiron returns is
that they suddenly realize they don't have to worry and obsess as much--they
become less uptight, even sometimes in the face of difficult life events that
might also be going on. Some astrologers associate Chiron with "audacity",
boldness, and this does seem to be a theme when one turns 50 and enters the
"youth of one's maturity" (don't you just love the euphemisms?). Of course,
this could also be circumstantial--around age 50, the kids have usually moved
out of the house, you're more comfortable in your own skin, etc. etc.
Regarding the Prog. Sun septiling the natal Sun, I have also taken an interest
in watching when the TRANSITING sun is septiling the natal sun. Happens twice a
year, and I have seen the septile definition ("brings things to fruition")
occurring around those times.
My first astrology teacher, the late Oscar Weber, in Boston, taught all the
usual aspects to his beginners, but always included the septile. It had been
his experience that it was extremely important. His emphasis on it has stuck
with me, I guess. - Lauren
Paul Brady
When my Chiron returned (also around age 50), I was diagnosed with
depression; and began treatments ( none of which seem to have worked
so far, after trying 4 different types). This experience seems to tie
in with the mythology of Chiron in a healing role. But I simply don't
believe any of the broad ideas about Chiron being a "benefic" and
always energising in a positive manner. In my case, Chiron in 2 degree
square Ascendant may symbolise my experience of this transit, and any
other transits I have of this outer planet. Like all planets, those
with more comfortable aspects to Chiron natally, probably have better
transits.
Have a Happy New Year; and if anyone has a more harmonious Chiron in
their chart that can release its "magic" (another term used to
describe Chiron) to cure depression, please let me know asap.
Paul Brady
Gail Klein
>Hi, Gail....you'd mentioned in your note about the Chiron return at around age
>50. One common thing I've observed among many people during Chiron returns is
>that they suddenly realize they don't have to worry and obsess as much--they
>become less uptight, even sometimes in the face of difficult life events that
>might also be going on. Some astrologers associate Chiron with "audacity",
>boldness, and this does seem to be a theme when one turns 50 and enters the
>"youth of one's maturity" (don't you just love the euphemisms?). Of course,
>this could also be circumstantial--around age 50, the kids have usually moved
>out of the house, you're more comfortable in your own skin, etc. etc.
Good points, Lauren. And the feeling of not needing to worry so
much also gels with a less "gain oriented" quality to general
motivation. The "maverick" quality attributed to Chiron seems to
suggest that, at its return, there may be new directions of interest
which open up which, while being of personal interest, can also be
of some use to the collective. It would be interesting to interview
a bunch of people and see what they may have started or changed at
that age.
>Regarding the Prog. Sun septiling the natal Sun, I have also taken an interest
>in watching when the TRANSITING sun is septiling the natal sun. Happens twice a
>year, and I have seen the septile definition ("brings things to fruition")
>occurring around those times.
Oh, ok, that sounds like another interesting thing to watch, although
generally I don't notice much from the transitting Sun (even the
squares and opps).
>My first astrology teacher, the late Oscar Weber, in Boston, taught all the
>usual aspects to his beginners, but always included the septile. It had been
>his experience that it was extremely important. His emphasis on it has stuck
>with me, I guess. - Lauren
Well, I'll try to watch for it -- you've gotten me intrigued! :)
Gail Klein
>On Wed, 30 Dec 1998 18:45:32 CST, lmck...@aol.com (LMcKevitt) wrote:
>>Hi, Gail....you'd mentioned in your note about the Chiron return at around age
>>50. One common thing I've observed among many people during Chiron returns is
>>that they suddenly realize they don't have to worry and obsess as much--they
>>become less uptight, even sometimes in the face of difficult life events that
>>might also be going on. Some astrologers associate Chiron with "audacity",
>>boldness, and this does seem to be a theme when one turns 50 and enters the
>>"youth of one's maturity" (don't you just love the euphemisms?). Of course,
>>this could also be circumstantial--around age 50, the kids have usually moved
>>out of the house, you're more comfortable in your own skin, etc. etc.
>>
>>Regarding the Prog. Sun septiling the natal Sun, I have also taken an interest
>>in watching when the TRANSITING sun is septiling the natal sun. Happens twice a
>>year, and I have seen the septile definition ("brings things to fruition")
>>occurring around those times.
>>
>>My first astrology teacher, the late Oscar Weber, in Boston, taught all the
>>usual aspects to his beginners, but always included the septile. It had been
>>his experience that it was extremely important. His emphasis on it has stuck
>>with me, I guess. - Lauren
>>
>When my Chiron returned (also around age 50), I was diagnosed with
>depression; and began treatments ( none of which seem to have worked
>so far, after trying 4 different types). This experience seems to tie
>in with the mythology of Chiron in a healing role. But I simply don't
>believe any of the broad ideas about Chiron being a "benefic" and
>always energising in a positive manner.
I definitely agree with this. Transits from Chiron to my natal
have been a very mixed bag.
>In my case, Chiron in 2 degree
>square Ascendant may symbolise my experience of this transit, and any
>other transits I have of this outer planet. Like all planets, those
>with more comfortable aspects to Chiron natally, probably have better
>transits.
>Have a Happy New Year; and if anyone has a more harmonious Chiron in
>their chart that can release its "magic" (another term used to
>describe Chiron) to cure depression, please let me know asap.
Well, I have a rough natal Chiron, too, and I'm really sorry to
hear of your struggle with depression. I've been taking St. John's
Wort, because it's gentler than pharmaceuticals, and Kava (which
is very mild, but it does help a bit with anxiety). Other than
that, an old friend was advising me recently that the key to
breaking a depression is to find something that sparks
excitement. Is there a record you used to love? Listen to it!
Force yourself to take walks; break patterns. If you can break
your routines just a little, that may help. It doesn't need to
be drastic, just something as simple as putting music on as soon
as you wake up, or taking a walk everyday. You have to force
yourself to do these things, I'm afraid, because when you're
depressed ("you" being just meant generally), you really have
no motivation for anything at all. And of course, Paul, talk to
us here - you're listened to. I hope you can find what works for
you, and I wish you a wonderful, UN-depressed, New Year.
Gail
>Paul Brady
Archon
stands sentinel at the gateway, but never reached
alt.astrology.moderated. Since I gather from Gail that it did reach
the archive, I must be thankful for this small mercy. She advises
posting it again, so here goes... (when I wrote there were only 3
responses to David's suggestion, on which I also commented)
On Sun, 27 Dec 1998 02:41:22 CST, exten...@webtv.net (David Hecht)
wrote:
>There is some debate about the actual effect of aspects other than those
>considered major,i.e the conjunction, trine, square, sextile and
>opposition. Yet, the divisibility of the circle invites other
>possibilities which have been documented and are used with discretion by
>astrologers.
>
>"Minor aspects", if effective, are not likely to generate as strong a
>connection as the "major" ones do. This brings to mind a notion that it
>might be possible to augment the viability of these connections through
>an active/passive strategy which involves working more readily at the
>meanings of those considered positive while accepting more readily the
>effects of those considered negative. The latter effect will seemingly
>not be as powerful as the negative effects of "major" aspects and thus
>should be able to be handled by simply allowing for the energies and
>riding them out.
>
>The "positive" one's, however, may provide an incentive to apply
>yourself towards gaining the benefits they suggest. Such effort could
>spell the difference between a "minor" and "major" effect. Any thoughts?
>Dave
This thoughtful hypothesis produced several useful responses, thus a
quality debate, and I find myself in partial agreement with all
contributors. Dave's premise that investing energy in the psyche
along the lines suggested by the minor aspects is an appropriate
extension of (what is now traditional) humanistic astrology. I advise
the empirical approach: try it over a lengthy period of time and learn
from your experiences.
I agree with dante that the resonance with the planetary archetype
attenuates with the higher order harmonics. He says the symbolism has
to be researched. Well, that seemed evident in the aftermath of the
excellent pioneering effort by John Addey in the late '70s, but all we
got in the early/mid '80s was glossy books containing speculation.
And nothing since, so far as I know. The substance of the subject
seems too hard for most astrologers and too subtle for the capable
ones. That point about positive/negative aspects is valid, but
lengthening experience with many charts inclines me to back off from
the humanistic perspective somewhat. Much of human life is
fate-driven still, and outcomes often seem positive or negative. When
correlated with the apparent causative/synchronous transits, the
traditional view often seems appropriate. I personally prefer
easy/difficult, particularly in natal charts (I mostly do events).
Lauren is right that major events are characterised by Ptolemaic
aspects, often interlinked in major configurations, but I have been
surprised to discover that the semisextile keeps showing up in a
significant context. It almost seems to play a structural part in
actualising the event. Cosmobiologists always cite the octile and
trioctile as common event catalysts, but I'm more sceptical about this
than I was half a Saturn cycle back.
I agree with Scott on his two main points: the aspects are
qualitively unique, and will manifest differently as a result, and the
manifestation will occur via the interlinking to the whole. The whole
organism, or entity, represented by the chart, will coordinate and
integrate the component parts. The qualitative effect of attempting
to activate a latent component of the psyche will be appropriate to
the holistic evolution of the person. It may colour subsequent
events, may even catalyse them, but don't expect discernible evidence
to be obvious.
ZeroZero Magazine
writes
>Well, I have a rough natal Chiron, too, and I'm really sorry to
>hear of your struggle with depression. I've been taking St. John's
>Wort,
Even though I rarely get depressed, when I have, I have found health
supplements like St Johns Wort, Ginseng, and Ginko Biloba to be very
useful. Its always useful to take an 'overdose' of these health
supplements because the recommended dosage will have very little
noticeable effect. I took 5 St Johns Wort tablets to see what they were
like, and they really chilled me out.
The best cures for depression are however music - as mentioned (+
singing along to the music), and physical exercise. A good walk in the
country or anywhere in fact can really sort out any lingering feelings
of depression. Sunlight can also help so get up early and enjoy as much
sun as you can.
Linden
Gail Klein
>In article <76evvc$n...@panix2.panix.com>, Gail Klein <g...@panix.com>
>writes
>>Well, I have a rough natal Chiron, too, and I'm really sorry to
>>hear of your struggle with depression. I've been taking St. John's
>>Wort,
>Even though I rarely get depressed, when I have, I have found health
>supplements like St Johns Wort, Ginseng, and Ginko Biloba to be very
>useful. Its always useful to take an 'overdose' of these health
>supplements because the recommended dosage will have very little
>noticeable effect. I took 5 St Johns Wort tablets to see what they were
>like, and they really chilled me out.
:))) This morning, I couldn't remember if I'd taken my tablet,
and I took another one, getting freaked out that I'd get some sort
of weird effect, if I "overdosed". :)))) This is what it's like
to get old....
>The best cures for depression are however music - as mentioned (+
>singing along to the music), and physical exercise. A good walk in the
>country or anywhere in fact can really sort out any lingering feelings
>of depression. Sunlight can also help so get up early and enjoy as much
>sun as you can.
Absolutely. Thanks :) (Your mention of singing is especially
pertinent to me, because with Mars in Taurus, sign of the throat,
singing enlivens me.)
Gail
>Linden
trac...@charm.net
This experience seems to tie
> in with the mythology of Chiron in a healing role. But I simply don't
> believe any of the broad ideas about Chiron being a "benefic" and
> always energising in a positive manner.
I have always wondered about this. No one has ever given me an assesment
of Chiron that makes complete sense to me. One case I've seen is of an
abused child (severe abuse, over a period of 6 years) with Chiron exactly
conjunct the abuser's Sun. Does anyone have any thoeries about this? It
strikes me that with Chiron being "the wounded healer" that Chiron could
represent the wounding just as well as the healing.
Cheryl
Archon
SeaGtGruff
<snip>
> No one has ever given me an assesment of Chiron that
> makes complete sense to me.
<snip>
> It strikes me that with Chiron being "the wounded healer"
> that Chiron could represent the wounding just as well as the
> healing.
While I haven't studied Chiron that much yet, I do tend to see it more in terms
of "woundedness" rather than "healing" per se; it's where we *need* to be
healed. Perhaps we can use Chiron to help heal other people's wounds, but I
think we should remember that Chiron wasn't able to heal his own wound. I have
an exact Mercury-Chiron sextile, and there are times when I've been giving
other people advice about their problems, and I'll suddenly think to myself,
"*I* should be taking this advice!"
> One case I've seen is of an abused child (severe abuse,
> over a period of 6 years) with Chiron exactly conjunct the
> abuser's Sun. Does anyone have any thoeries about this?
That's sad! But it does fit the symbolism, doesn't it? It's as if the Sun
individual (ego, self-identity) is saying to the Chiron individual, "I'm the
person who causes your wounds." Of course, on a positive level, person A's Sun
conjunct person B's Chiron could be saying, "I'm the person who heals your
wounds." Does the abuser have anything that squares or opposes the abusee's
Chiron? Or does the abusee have anything that squares or opposes the abuser's
Sun? Are there any midpoints that fall on the Sun-Chiron conjunction, either
within one or the other chart, or even between the two charts? Is there
anything which might indicate that the Sun individual would be a wounder,
rather than a healer, for the Chiron individual?
Michael Rideout
LMcKevitt
aspects.
I'm not inclined to think of Chiron as "wounded healer." Based solely on
intuition, I suspect that Chiron has something to do with boundaries--with
exceeding them, going beyond them, either yourself, or others with you. Some
astrologers consider Chiron as representative of "audacity, boldness." That
would tie in with the boundary thinking. I think the whole mind/body
connection, that has become so prevalent since Chiron's discovery, has some
connection with Chiron's meaning. The very nature of a centaur is such that the
symbolism could work.
I am re-reading Ken Wilber's book, "No Boundary" right now (written 2 years
after Chiron's discovery in 1979), and have frequently thought of the Chironic
mind/body symbolism while reading it.Wilber talks about "The Centaur level" of
consciousness in this book. Again, this "centaur" idea is tied in with the
mind/body connection. - Lauren
ZeroZero Magazine
writes
>In <tNAqTDA$+Ri2...@pcworks.demon.co.uk> ZeroZero Magazine
><Zero...@pcworks.demon.co.uk> writes:
>
>>In article <769jej$m...@panix2.panix.com>, Gail Klein <g...@panix.com>
>>writes
>
>>If not, is this something related to the "Harmonic Chart Factor" setting
>>in astrolog? Astrolog cannot use a harmonic chart factor of 0. Mine is
>>set to 1 which is as far as I know pretty standard. Even if this option
>>has nothing to do with the info presented above, could someone explain
>>precisely what this option in Astrolog represents?
>
>I was mistaken when I wrote 0H, it should be 1H. 360/0 = 0
>and 360/1 = 360. Please forgive my currently Neptune-hazed
>mind...
>
>If it's set to 1, it sounds as if this is indeed a feature for
>computing harmonic charts. Stick 13 in place of 1 and see what
>you get.
OK. Harmonic Chart Factor is now set to 13...hmmmm....
Things in my chart have changed. My Sun is now Libra rather than Virgo,
Moon is scorpio rather than aquarius...Ascendant is towards the middle
of the 7th house (!) and my first house is opposite the ascendant
heheh...
What does this setting mean? Can you work with this information?
>>The only info I have on this
>>aspect is that it represents a very 'spiritual number', and that it
>>represents completion. Have have not used this aspect at all since I
>>haven't a clue how its practical use could aide analysis.
>
>I don't know how it's used in Vedic astrology, but what I've
>done with all my harmonic charts is looked at them and tried to
>find the aspects that don't show up in the regular natal 1H
>chart. If I recall, that's what David Hamblin says is significant
>in his book. For instance, in my 5H chart (quintile aspect) I have
>a Mercury Saturn Uranus T-square. Don't know quite what it "means",
>but I don't have any conventional connection between those planets
>in the normal chart.
What would be the reasons for changing the harmonic chart factor to
anything but 1?
Linden
BluesMuse1
In article <19990103010351...@ng-cf1.aol.com>, seagt...@aol.com
(SeaGtGruff) writes:
>Subject: Re: Septiles and Chiron return-- Is Chiron depression?
>From: seagt...@aol.com (SeaGtGruff)
>Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 01:04:33 CST
>
>Cheryl (trac...@charm.net) wrote:
>
><snip>
>> No one has ever given me an assesment of Chiron that
>> makes complete sense to me.
><snip>
>> It strikes me that with Chiron being "the wounded healer"
>> that Chiron could represent the wounding just as well as the
>> healing.
Every once in a while, I will look back on significant events of my life, and
try to see if there are any astrological conditions that would correlate to
them. During the last half of 1995 I experienced a period of health crises,
one after another.
Up until now, I had only used the 10 major planets, as I have only been
studying astrology for a few years, and did not want to be overwhelmed by the
data available. However, using the 10 planets, I could find nothing in my
transits that would indicate such a difficult period in terms of my health. I
had heard about Chiron being a healer and a wounder, and decided to try running
Chiron transits for this period.
Sure enough, there was Chiron squaring my natal Mars for almost the entire
period of my health crises. That convinced me that Chiron was worthy of
further study on my part, and should be included in any chart work that I do.
Jeff
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------
"Any magick sufficiently developed is indistinguishable from technology" Phil
Carroll
ZeroZero Magazine
<lmck...@aol.com> writes
>I'm not inclined to think of Chiron as "wounded healer." Based solely on
>intuition, I suspect that Chiron has something to do with boundaries--with
>exceeding them, going beyond them, either yourself, or others with you.
What I read was that the transits of chiron can mark sudden and almost
shocking changes in self (attitudes, direction of life, appearance,
etc). I suppose this type of change could be considered exactly a part
of what you wrote above.
Sort of off ona tangent - does Chirons astrological significance rest
solely on the mythology behind the name? Has this changed over the past
years through seeing the real meaning of this planetoid?
Linden
SeaGtGruff
<snip>
> I'm not inclined to think of Chiron as "wounded healer."
That symbolism seems to work for me, but I do think that it's only a part of
what Chiron is about. It's like saying that the Sun represents the father; it
may be true, but certainly it's only a tiny subset of the Sun's meaning, and it
may not apply in a specific instance.
> Based solely on intuition, I suspect that Chiron has
> something to do with boundaries--with exceeding them,
> going beyond them, either yourself, or others with you.
I read that years ago, in Barbara Hand Clow's book (not that she originated the
idea, but that was the first book on Chiron that I ever read). And it does
make intuitive sense, both in terms of Chiron being an orbit-crosser, as well
as in terms of being primarily situated between Saturn (limitations) and Uranus
(freedom).
I suppose that any orbit-crossing object may have something to do with
"crossing the line" in some sense, although which line is being crossed would
of course depend on which orbit is being crossed. On that note, Pluto is an
orbit-crosser, as it crosses Neptune's orbit at times; and Pluto is sometimes
said to relate to the severing of connections, which might be seen as
"exceeding boundaries" in a way, if the connections being severed are thought
of as boundaries (connections which *limit* us, such that breaking the
connections allows us to move on to new territory).
<snip>
> I am re-reading Ken Wilber's book, "No Boundary" right
> now (written 2 years after Chiron's discovery in 1979), and
> have frequently thought of the Chironic mind/body
> symbolism while reading it.Wilber talks about "The Centaur
> level" of consciousness in this book. Again, this "centaur"
> idea is tied in with the mind/body connection.
I've never heard of his book. Can you post the ISBN and the name of the
publisher? I wonder if it's still in print?
Michael Rideout
Scott
>Moon is scorpio rather than aquarius...Ascendant is towards the middle
>of the 7th house (!) and my first house is opposite the ascendant
>heheh...
>
>What does this setting mean? Can you work with this information?
Well, I don't spend a lot of time working with harmonic charts, but I have
studied them a little. Although there might be some unusual properties of
H13 charts, in general the signs in harmonic charts are there to position
the planets, and little else. That the houses appear at all is just an
artifact of Astrolog; they are meaningless. In other words, ignore the
signs and the houses. The aspects are king in this curious land!
Rulerships and such are carried over from the natal chart - in other words,
if Venus natally rules the second house, then it still rules those matters
in the harmonic chart (even though there is no actual harmonic second
house). Harmonic charts make it easier to see relationships in the natal
chart that might not be readily apparent, as the harmonic major aspects are
manifestations of (sometimes) natal minor aspects related to the number of
the harmonic (i.e., in an H13 chart the aspects reveal the relationships of
the planets in terms of 13ths of the circle - not the sort of thing you
normally look for in natal charts).
Of course, I am nowhere near being an expert on harmonics. I am sure others
might have more to say in this regard.
Scott
SeaGtGruff
<snip>
> Sort of off ona tangent - does Chirons astrological
> significance rest solely on the mythology behind the name?
I hope not! I have some reservations about that way of thinking, which is not
to say that I think it's wrong; I just think it should be used cautiously.
This is a sticky issue which has stirred up heated debate among some
astrologers.
Some of the ideas about Chiron's (or any body's) meanings are derived from its
orbital characteristics and its position within the Solar System (i.e., between
Saturn and Uranus).
> Has this changed over the past years through seeing the
> real meaning of this planetoid?
One would hope so! And I do think it has. But I personally haven't studied
Chiron's meanings that much, let alone the origins and evolution of its
meanings.
Michael Rideout
SeaGtGruff
> Well, I don't spend a lot of time working with harmonic
> charts, but I have studied them a little. Although there
> might be some unusual properties of H13 charts, in general
> the signs in harmonic charts are there to position the
> planets, and little else. That the houses appear at all is just
> an artifact of Astrolog; they are meaningless. In other
> words, ignore the signs and the houses. The aspects are
> king in this curious land!
That pretty much sums up my own feelings, although I have seen books which make
a big deal of the signs and houses in harmonic charts. And in the "divisional"
charts (or vargas) of Vedic astrology-- which were a major influence on John
Addey's ideas about harmonic charts-- the signs and houses *are* considered to
be important. So I guess you and I are in the minority, Scott! <grin>
> Rulerships and such are carried over from the natal chart -
> in other words, if Venus natally rules the second house,
> then it still rules those matters in the harmonic chart (even
> though there is no actual harmonic second house).
> Harmonic charts make it easier to see relationships in the
> natal chart that might not be readily apparent, as the
> harmonic major aspects are manifestations of (sometimes)
> natal minor aspects related to the number of the harmonic
> (i.e., in an H13 chart the aspects reveal the relationships of
> the planets in terms of 13ths of the circle - not the sort of
> thing you normally look for in natal charts).
<snip>
Again, that's how I look at it, too; harmonic charts are tools to help us see
aspects and configurations which might otherwise go unnoticed in the chart.
Although I do occasionally use harmonic charts in that way, I then go back to
the 1H chart to actually interpret the aspects and configurations.
Michael Rideout
SeaGtGruff
_Essays on Astrology_, by Robert Hand. The technique which Gail and I were
referring to in earlier posts is "dodekatemoria." I think that's what I'd
called it, but I had thought that I might be misspelling it.
Michael Rideout
Gail Klein
>In article <76bnnq$o...@panix2.panix.com>, Gail Klein <g...@panix.com>
>writes
>>In <tNAqTDA$+Ri2...@pcworks.demon.co.uk> ZeroZero Magazine
>><Zero...@pcworks.demon.co.uk> writes:
>>
>>>In article <769jej$m...@panix2.panix.com>, Gail Klein <g...@panix.com>
>>>writes
>>If it's set to 1, it sounds as if this is indeed a feature for
>>computing harmonic charts. Stick 13 in place of 1 and see what
>>you get.
>OK. Harmonic Chart Factor is now set to 13...hmmmm....
>Things in my chart have changed. My Sun is now Libra rather than Virgo,
>Moon is scorpio rather than aquarius...Ascendant is towards the middle
>of the 7th house (!) and my first house is opposite the ascendant
>heheh...
>What does this setting mean? Can you work with this information?
Sure. Assuming that what you have is indeed your 13th harmonic chart
(and you can check simply by picking one planet, multiplying its
absolute longitude by 13, then subtract 360 from the result until
you get a number below 360, and convert it back to zodiacal value,
and compare if this position is the same as the planet in the chart
Astrolog came up with. Here's a short example of finding a 13th harmonic
position:
Natal planet is at 8 Virgo 12. In absolute longitude this is 158 12.
158 12 X 13 = 2056 36
2056 36 - 360 = 1696 36
1696 36 - 360 = 1336 36
1336 36 - 360 = 976 36
976 36 - 360 = 616 36
616 36 - 360 = 256 36
256 36 is 16 Sagittarius 36. So, the natal planet which is 8 Virgo 12,
has a 13th harmonic position of 16 Sag 36.)
According to my notes from the lecture tape, there are 3 ways to
use the 13th harmonic chart.
The first is to draw equal houses from the 13th harmonic MC, which
gives you a new look at your "hidden" vocational emphases. Place
more importance on house positions and aspects than on signs, I
think.
The 2nd is to draw equal houses from the 13th harmonic Ascendant.
This gives a look at your "hidden" relationship tendencies.
The 3rd is to place the 13th harmonic planets and angles inside
your natal, as if you were comparing transits to your natal. The
contacts made by the 13th harmonic positions to the natal, may
show areas of special emphasis, the way transits would.
An example might be a writer who natally has Venus in Pisces in the
3rd, but instead of being, say, a fiction writer, is a writer of
technical manuals. The 13H chart, this person turns out to have
something like Saturn in Virgo in the 3rd. (A similar example was
given on the tape, but I don't remember it exactly, so I'm just using
this to illustrate how the 13H chart can sometimes be more "accurate"
in showing what a person actually does.)
>>>The only info I have on this
>>>aspect is that it represents a very 'spiritual number', and that it
>>>represents completion. Have have not used this aspect at all since I
>>>haven't a clue how its practical use could aide analysis.
You were talking about the 9th harmonic, above.
>>I don't know how it's used in Vedic astrology, but what I've
>>done with all my harmonic charts is looked at them and tried to
>>find the aspects that don't show up in the regular natal 1H
>>chart.
Except for the 13th, where some people say to look for what emphasizes
natal patterns.
>>If I recall, that's what David Hamblin says is significant
>>in his book. For instance, in my 5H chart (quintile aspect) I have
>>a Mercury Saturn Uranus T-square. Don't know quite what it "means",
>>but I don't have any conventional connection between those planets
>>in the normal chart.
>What would be the reasons for changing the harmonic chart factor to
>anything but 1?
Well, it depends. For one thing, like with the 13th, it can give
a perspective that may explain seeming inconsistencies, like in my
writer example above. And with the other harmonics, this is a way
of examining a natal chart for the patterns that express the principles
of a given number. For instance, the 5th harmonic examines the natal
chart for its specific expression of "fiveness", which pertains to
a person's inventive potential.
The 7th harmonic examines the natal specifically in terms of "sevenness"
which pertains to the inspiration potential. The conjunctions in a
harmonic will show the planets that are fused together in the
expression of whatever principles are attributed to its harmonic.
The squares will show the tension in expressing those principles
as will the oppositions. The trines and sextiles will show the flow
of energies between the planets which express the principles of the
number easily. It is sort of confusing to make sense of these charts
to start with, though. It's like putting a part of something under
extreme magnification; what you're looking at is no longer obscured
(we usually don't pick up on these harmonics when we look at the
natal chart -- whose eye is trained to see the septiles, noviles,
and quintiles, etc? We usually just see the plain old squares,
opps, trines, and sextiles because they're so easy to spot), but
it can be difficult to relate it meaningfully to the rest of the
whole organism.
Gail Klein
>Michael Rideout
Michael's follow through inspired me to get off my lazy peregrine-Venus
butt and confirm the name of the lecturer on that tape; it wasn't
Linda Hill, after all, but Linda Martin (at least, I *think* her first
name is Linda, but her last name is definitely Martin). Good thing
I checked!
Jonathan C. Dunn
On Mon, 4 Jan 1999, SeaGtGruff wrote:
> Lauren McKevitt (lmck...@aol.com) wrote:
>
> <snip>
> > I'm not inclined to think of Chiron as "wounded healer."
>
> That symbolism seems to work for me, but I do think that it's only a part of
> what Chiron is about. It's like saying that the Sun represents the father; it
> may be true, but certainly it's only a tiny subset of the Sun's meaning, and it
> may not apply in a specific instance.
>
> > Based solely on intuition, I suspect that Chiron has
> > something to do with boundaries--with exceeding them,
> > going beyond them, either yourself, or others with you.
>
> I read that years ago, in Barbara Hand Clow's book (not that she originated the
> idea, but that was the first book on Chiron that I ever read). And it does
> make intuitive sense, both in terms of Chiron being an orbit-crosser, as well
> as in terms of being primarily situated between Saturn (limitations) and Uranus
> (freedom).
>
> I suppose that any orbit-crossing object may have something to do with
> "crossing the line" in some sense, although which line is being crossed would
> of course depend on which orbit is being crossed. On that note, Pluto is an
> orbit-crosser, as it crosses Neptune's orbit at times; and Pluto is sometimes
> said to relate to the severing of connections, which might be seen as
> "exceeding boundaries" in a way, if the connections being severed are thought
> of as boundaries (connections which *limit* us, such that breaking the
> connections allows us to move on to new territory).
Lauren,
I would make a difference between Pluto and Chiron in this way: the orbital area
of the gas-giants Jupiter-through-Neptune refers to 'consciousness itself'.
Pluto belongs partially to a regions beyond (or below) the consciousness-limit
of Neptune. It therefore might be thought of as referring to efforts to push
things out of consciousness/society or to pull them in from the depths. Chiron
and the other centaurs, on the other hand, cross orbits, but they do so *among*
the large bodies, showing more of a mercurial transition or translation between
differring kinds of consciousness or strata of society. Chiron is often
described as 'chameleonlike', whereas Pluto is steady and obsessive.
Thanks,
-Jonathan Dunn
Jonathan C. Dunn
I love this subject title. I am inclined to see Chiron as related quite heavily
to Libra (by perigee and perhaps even rulership) and Libra is connected to the
roller-coaster of life and the search for centeredness. The Septile of course
means one seventh (libra).
On Mon, 4 Jan 1999, SeaGtGruff wrote:
> Linden (Zero...@pcworks.demon.co.uk) wrote:
>
> <snip>
> > Sort of off ona tangent - does Chirons astrological
> > significance rest solely on the mythology behind the name?
>
> I hope not! I have some reservations about that way of thinking, which is not
> to say that I think it's wrong; I just think it should be used cautiously.
> This is a sticky issue which has stirred up heated debate among some
> astrologers.
Michael,
Amen. Well said. Some people insist upon using every aspect of every myth as an
indication of what Chiron is, and others harshly reject the idea the mythology
has any information about it.
> Some of the ideas about Chiron's (or any body's) meanings are derived from its
> orbital characteristics and its position within the Solar System (i.e., between
> Saturn and Uranus).
>
> > Has this changed over the past years through seeing the
> > real meaning of this planetoid?
Linden,
People have continued to see Chiron largely connected with health crises and
healing and wounding, although I have some reservations that the drumbeat about
the mythical Chiron's connection with healing may have brought undue emphasis on
this.
Anyway, Chiron definitely seems to have a connection to everything 'New Age',
including soul-mates, clean technology, harmony with mind/body/nature, etc.
Astronomically, Chiron is technically now seen as a comet, although it is the
largest object in the solar system which is known to have cometary activity.
This even places it in a different category with the other 'centaur' bodies
which have similar orbital characteristics.
I like this quote from an astronomer who studies Pluto quite a lot:
*****************************************************************************
"Is it a comet? ... we know the activity we see is not due to water
sublimating from the surface, as is the case for comets ... maybe Chiron
could be considered for membership in the Ice planets to keep Pluto
company..." - Marc W. Buie, Lowell Observatory
*****************************************************************************
jon...@speakeasy.org http://www.speakeasy.org/~jondunn/
*****************************************************************************
SeaGtGruff
> I would make a difference between Pluto and Chiron in
> this way: the orbital area of the gas-giants
> Jupiter-through-Neptune refers to 'consciousness itself'.
> Pluto belongs partially to a regions beyond (or below) the
> consciousness-limit of Neptune. It therefore might be
> thought of as referring to efforts to push things out of
> consciousness/society or to pull them in from the depths.
> Chiron and the other centaurs, on the other hand, cross
> orbits, but they do so *among* the large bodies, showing
> more of a mercurial transition or translation between
> differring kinds of consciousness or strata of society.
> Chiron is often described as 'chameleonlike', whereas
> Pluto is steady and obsessive.
Those are some interesting comments; I especially like the following sentences:
> Pluto belongs partially to a regions beyond (or below) the
> consciousness-limit of Neptune. It therefore might be
> thought of as referring to efforts to push things out of
> consciousness/society or to pull them in from the depths.
If A's orbit crosses B's orbit, then B's orbit cross A's orbit, too. So which
one is the "orbit-crosser"? It seems intuitively obvious that the body with
the more elliptical orbit is the one doing the crossing, and the more circular
orbit is the "line" being crossed. Or perhaps we might say that the smaller or
less massive (more minor) body crosses the orbit of the larger or more massive
(more major) body? I'm more inclined to go with the first suggestion, but I
brought up the second one for cases where the orbits might have the same
eccentricities.
Comets are an interesting subject, and their reputation as "cosmic messengers"
is-- as I understand it-- at least partly based on the fact that they go "out"
of the Solar System for a time (depending on where we place the outermost edge
of the Solar System), and then swing back in, suggesting that they're carrying
messages to us. Here's a thought: If-- from our perspective-- comets bring us
messages from "out there," perhaps they also pick up messages from us and carry
them back out to parts unknown? These sorts of analogies are highly fanciful--
the celestial bodies aren't people, so we really shouldn't impose human
characteristics or imageries upon them-- but they can sometimes be useful.
Michael Rideout
ZeroZero Magazine
, Jonathan C. Dunn <jon...@speakeasy.org> writes
>Linden,
>
>People have continued to see Chiron largely connected with health crises and
>healing and wounding, although I have some reservations that the drumbeat about
>the mythical Chiron's connection with healing may have brought undue emphasis
>on
>this.
I have been noticing chiron quite a lot lately. I had my Pluto
semisquare ascendant a while back, and this was quite heavy, activating
the venus/pluto natal square...
Anyway, Chiron is hot on Pluto's heels and is now semisquaring my
ascendant. Strange thing is, I haven't seen my ex since splitting up
begining of Sept (, which is unusual in this area where everyone seems
to know everyone) and happened to bump into her two nights ago. We still
like each other, and I still find her intensely attractive, but I seem
to be getting on with things and healing the emotional damage incurred
by the Pluto semisquare, instead of pondering and feeling annoyed.
I'm looking forward to seing just how much more the chiron-semisquare
will manifest. I know health and healing are associated with chiron, but
also shock - sudden change, and guru/wisdom.
I know that time heals, and the pluto semisquare went out of orb a while
ago, but chirons sudden movement into semisquare does seem to be having
an effect.
My thought on Chiron: "the one who heals through the teaching of truth
and the giver of wisdom". Any more one liners? ;)
Linden
ZeroZero Magazine
Jonathan C. Dunn
On Sat, 9 Jan 1999, ZeroZero Magazine wrote:
> ...
> My thought on Chiron: "the one who heals through the teaching of truth
> and the giver of wisdom". Any more one liners? ;)
>
> Linden
>
Linden,
In all the whirl of ideas about Chiron (my own and others') I still remember the
quote of the late Al H. Morrison: "...an inconvenient benefic...".
I think that Chiron can be as misguided and unwise as any other planet. Chiron
seeks enlivenment and well-being. The attempts to do so can be foolish,
desperate, or destructive. An individual can indiscriminately set oneself up as
a giver of wholeness. Etc.
I think a Chiron degree can bring one to a heightened awareness of the balance
or imbalance of one's life.
Where Pluto is completely focused on long-term goals and bull-dozes over
obstacles, Chiron seems focused on the moment - the shortcomings of the moment
or the opportunities. One of the earliest keywords for Chiron is "now" - between
Saturn's past and Uranus' future. To be completely centered and focused or to be
completely desperate, bi-polar, vulnerable, and distracted...
Thanks,
-Jonathan Dunn