Sun Sextile Pluto---good, bad? determiner or not?
jer...@my-deja.com
for questions so basic, you will want to throw cyber shoes at me.
First, from what I have been reading (and I am reading a lot of this
stuff, but I am quite new), some astrologers believe that the star
charts are merely reflections of ourselves, and some seem to believe
that the stars are much more deterministic. (In other words, the stars
tell us what will happen as well as what our choices in life are)
And everybody seems to regard Pluto with a great deal of dread. There's
not much that I can find on Pluto. It seems like a less popular planet
than Venus, Mars, and Saturn. But from what I've been reading, Pluto
has to do with things of depth, intensity, perhaps secrets, or things
buried.
So, I just got a reading that says "Sun Sextile Pluto". The astrologer
I used says this means a time of creativity. But I first thought, "Wow!
Something's going to happen." You know, like I would wake up in the
middle of the Blair Witch Project.
Can anybody give me any ideas on this. I really thought that Venus
would have more to do with being creative and artistic. And does it
mean my mind will be more open to Pluto-like thinking, or that Plut-like
stuff is going to happen in my life?
Just in case anybody needs to know, here are my "star stats":
Virgo, sept 4, 1960,
Born at 2:53 PM, EST, during Daylight Savings Time
40.00 N
75.10 W (Philadelphia)
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
April
jer...@my-deja.com wrote:
(snippage of fine and worthy sentiments)
> So, I just got a reading that says "Sun Sextile Pluto". The astrologer
> I used says this means a time of creativity. But I first thought, "Wow!
> Something's going to happen." You know, like I would wake up in the
> middle of the Blair Witch Project.
> Can anybody give me any ideas on this. I really thought that Venus
> would have more to do with being creative and artistic. And does it
> mean my mind will be more open to Pluto-like thinking, or that Plut-like
> stuff is going to happen in my life?
*** I tend to think of the Sun as signifying creative drive and
charisma, whereas Venus might better describe the urge to beautify and
to connect with others (which art in the conventional sense certainly
can do). The sextile has always struck me as a little more *voluntary*
than those ball-busting hard aspects (square, opposition)--it seems to
describe *opportunities*, such as when an interesting-looking person
passes your office at work and you have the choice to say something, in
hopes of getting to know them better, or just letting them pass by. And
one way of interpreting Pluto is as a symbol of the collective, and its
aspects to personal planets as describing our role in the collective.
So here's what I might say about Sun sextile Pluto: An opportunity to
act as a creative focal point on behalf of the collective. Imagine, for
example, a rock star (Sun) who is approached with an invitation
(sextile) to perform at a benefit concert for a very worthy and
universal cause--say, AIDS research or world hunger.
I would think that you will find yourself presented with a series of
opportunities which, if taken, would involve you in issues larger than
yourself, and with people who are intense, focused, in need, and/or
otherwise Plutonian.
> Just in case anybody needs to know, here are my "star stats":
>
> Virgo, sept 4, 1960,
> Born at 2:53 PM, EST, during Daylight Savings Time
> 40.00 N
> 75.10 W (Philadelphia)
***MMM...I'm not really sure why you got a "Sun sextile Pluto"
interpretation...Your natal Sun is conjunct Pluto, your progressed Sun
is not sextile Pluto, and transiting Pluto will soon be squaring your
natal Sun.
*** By the way, Jeffrey Green, Steven Forrest, and Donna Cunningham have
all written terrific books about Pluto, which you might find
interesting.
Cheers,
April Elliott Kent
http://www.members.home.com/thebigsky/
--
To reply by email use aprilan.jonny.hotmail.com
remove the first dot and change the second to @
jer...@my-deja.com
>First of all--Jeri?--I enjoyed your witty and disarming post.
Thank you! I'm sure it must be quite a change among all the
accusations and name calling (even the Puritans got dragged into it!)
And they're dead!)
But alas, I can freely say that though this stuff is fascinating, I am
clueless. I have found some very good sites, but the "outer" planets
are not much discussed. If you should remember the title of that book
on Pluto, I shall be much obliged.
And thank you! It is quite a relief to know that Sun sextile Pluto
does not indicate I am going to get lost in the woods with a bunch of
kids who keep using the F--- word and getting lost. Actually, I think
we owe that witch a favor . . . .
<SNIP>
>So here's what I might say about Sun sextile Pluto: An opportunity to
>act as a creative focal point on behalf of the collective. Imagine, for
>example, a rock star (Sun) who is approached with an invitation
>(sextile) to perform at a benefit concert for a very worthy and
>universal cause--say, AIDS research or world hunger.
>I would think that you will find yourself presented with a series of
>opportunities which, if taken, would involve you in issues larger than
>yourself, and with people who are intense, focused, in need, and/or
>otherwise Plutonian.
>> Just in case anybody needs to know, here are my "star stats":
>>
>> Virgo, sept 4, 1960,
>> Born at 2:53 PM, EST, during Daylight Savings Time
>> 40.00 N
>> 75.10 W (Philadelphia)
>***MMM...I'm not really sure why you got a "Sun sextile Pluto"
>interpretation...Your natal Sun is conjunct Pluto, your progressed Sun
>is not sextile Pluto, and transiting Pluto will soon be squaring your
>natal Sun.
>*** By the way, Jeffrey Green, Steven Forrest, and Donna Cunningham have
>all written terrific books about Pluto, which you might find
>interesting.
Thank you for your kind reply. The reading was taken from a
"forecast" for the next month, based on my chart. According to the
astrologer, from Oct 28, 1999 to Oct 30, The Sun will be sextile to
natal Pluto.
But, to clarify-----your particular belief about all of this is not
that the star and planet alignments are just about our inner selves.
They can also indicate that "events" are going to take place? (Like
the rock star having a chance to do an AIDS benefit. I would consider
that an event. Having a mindset to do such a thing would be an "inner
self" reflection of the stars.)
The event vs. psychology thing sort of has me confused. If the sun
is in conjunction with Jupiter, does that mean I'm going to *get* rich
(event) or that I will *feel* rich? (inner self)
Thanks for your patience!
--Jeri
April
*** Okay, I get it. This forecast would be referring to the transiting
Sun, that is, the Sun in the sky as we speak; it moves through each sign
pretty quickly, about a month. For that reason, its movements and
aspects aren't given as much "weight" as a slower-moving aspect, such as
would be formed by transiting Pluto to the natal Sun, or the progressed
Sun. This isn't to say it has no meaning or import; but I suspect it
would act more as a "trigger" to catalyze slower moving aspects.
I don't mean to get too complicated here. Basically, you would have
this same aspect every November. You might think back to Novembers past
and see if you find a common thread.
> But, to clarify-----your particular belief about all of this is not
> that the star and planet alignments are just about our inner selves.
> They can also indicate that "events" are going to take place? (Like
> the rock star having a chance to do an AIDS benefit. I would consider
> that an event. Having a mindset to do such a thing would be an "inner
> self" reflection of the stars.)
*** My personal orientation tends toward the free-will, personal
improvement kind of astrology. But of course, we live on earth, and
physical events *do* take place here!--so of course they are reflected
in the chart as well. I think the reason many (but by no means all)
modern astrologers have backed away from "event-oriented"
prognostication is not because it can't be done, but because we live in
a society that stresses the individual's free will and the many, many
choices available to us--unlike many other times in history, when class
structure, sex, race, and so forth curtailed our potential in a much
more obvious way. So it's become arguably more difficult to "predict"
events for individuals with precision, because they generally have a lot
more options available to them.
But I guess a deeper philosophic point (which you may enjoy, with that
Sag ascendant, Jupiter rising, and bushel of 9th house planets!) is one
I've grappled with for the past decade: what's the point, really, of
predicting events? Some argue that it's helpful to the client to be
advised of specific events that might be coming up, like a job loss or a
death in the family, so that they can be prepared. For myself, I'm not
sure I would find it helpful to go to an astrologer and be read a
laundry list of when these kinds of things were going to happen, and
then be sent on my way. With my own clients, I try to offer them what
I've enjoyed in the best readings I've had: that is, perspective on
where they're at, so they have an opportunity to collaborate more
creatively with *whatever* comes their way.
To use the example of the rock star and the benefit concert, I might
make such a prognostication to the rock star and he might call me a
month later and say, "Wow, that's uncanny, how'd you know that?" Nice
validation of astrology and of my ability to interpret it. End of
story. But what if I'd spoken to him instead of upcoming opportunities
to give back to the global community, to use his personal success to
help others? Then we get to have a nice conversation about that area of
his life, which is maybe something that's been much on his mind, and
maybe leads to a deeper, richer exploration of various points in his
chart, and maybe a better understanding of what he has to offer the
world, rather than taking the somewhat isolationist (in my opinion)
approach of predicting what the world is going to be doing to, or
offering, him. The danger of such an approach, I feel, is that it might
tend to foster a sense of helplessness and passivity in your client.
> The event vs. psychology thing sort of has me confused. If the sun
> is in conjunction with Jupiter, does that mean I'm going to *get* rich
> (event) or that I will *feel* rich? (inner self)
*** Is it fair to say, "both"? ;> My take on Jupiter, for instance, is
that wherever it holds influence in your chart (life), you feel richly
blessed. With natal Jupiter in my second house, I've never been
wealthy, but I've always felt lucky about my relationship with money and
material possessions.
> Thanks for your patience!
>
> --Jeri
*** Thanks for the opportunity to share these thoughts with you!
Looking forward to more posts from you.
All the best,
April
Beep
>Greetings from the most star-illiterate reader of this board. Get ready
>for questions so basic, you will want to throw cyber shoes at me.
>
>First, from what I have been reading (and I am reading a lot of this
>stuff, but I am quite new), some astrologers believe that the star
>charts are merely reflections of ourselves, and some seem to believe
>that the stars are much more deterministic. (In other words, the stars
>tell us what will happen as well as what our choices in life are)
>
>And everybody seems to regard Pluto with a great deal of dread.
As I try to incorporate future transits to my own chart into my
normally no-predictive-stuff astrology...I'm really trying not to look
at anything with "dread"! Some things look pretty darn challenging,
yes, but I like to think of the challenges as possible opportunities
for growth and change...Pluto in particular....
Pam
recent veteran of Pluto in focal point of my t-square...
email address: beep at west dot net
Rheumatic Disease info: http://www.silcom.com/~sblc
Mark Martin
> Greetings from the most star-illiterate reader of this board. Get ready
> for questions so basic, you will want to throw cyber shoes at me.
>
> First, from what I have been reading (and I am reading a lot of this
> stuff, but I am quite new), some astrologers believe that the star
> charts are merely reflections of ourselves, and some seem to believe
> that the stars are much more deterministic. (In other words, the stars
> tell us what will happen as well as what our choices in life are)
>
> And everybody seems to regard Pluto with a great deal of dread. There's
> not much that I can find on Pluto. It seems like a less popular planet
> than Venus, Mars, and Saturn. But from what I've been reading, Pluto
> has to do with things of depth, intensity, perhaps secrets, or things
> buried.
>
> So, I just got a reading that says "Sun Sextile Pluto". The astrologer
> I used says this means a time of creativity. But I first thought, "Wow!
> Something's going to happen." You know, like I would wake up in the
> middle of the Blair Witch Project.
>
> Can anybody give me any ideas on this. I really thought that Venus
> would have more to do with being creative and artistic. And does it
> mean my mind will be more open to Pluto-like thinking, or that Plut-like
> stuff is going to happen in my life?
>
> Just in case anybody needs to know, here are my "star stats":
>
> Virgo, sept 4, 1960,
> Born at 2:53 PM, EST, during Daylight Savings Time
> 40.00 N
> 75.10 W (Philadelphia)
>
> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Before you buy.
Hi Jeri,
Your birthday is the day before mine, but three years earlier. I also have
Sun conjunct Pluto in my birth chart, but where yours is with an orb
(separation) of 6:07 degrees, mine is 0:06 degrees (six minutes). Is Labor
Day weekend your own personal holiday too?
Let me say a few things about Pluto. IMHO, a lot of the fear surrounding
Pluto that is often expressed in this group is unnecessarily exaggerated. I
know, I was one of the people talking about my Sun - Pluto conjunction, and
all the terrible things that happened to me, so I'm guilty of this
exaggeration too. Pluto has to do with change in a transforming way. I've
come to think of change, growth, personal evolution as a way of life. Pluto
can have some positive qualities. Relating to change and transformation,
Pluto is associated with regeneration, birth, and therefore the creative
process, as in the creation of life. Negatively, Pluto is like a steam
roller: slow, ponderous, inexorable, unavoidable. If you stand in the way,
oblivious of it's approach, you will get flattened. You can try to step
aside, run away, but a Pluto transit will eventually catch up to you. With
the awareness that astrology brings, you can climb aboard the steam roller
and ride it rather than get flattened by it. The advice to me once was to
"ride the dragon!"
Any astrologer who believes absolute fatalism is being irresponsible.
Here's my opinion. If every twitch of the eyelid were determined by the
most minute and obscure transits, then life wouldn't have any meaning in
itself. Astrology describes (does not determine) the influences at work in
our lives, and it's up to our own free will how we respond to those
influences. There's an old quotation you'll probably come across sooner or
later that "The stars impel, they do not compel." With this in mind, I see
a lot of people falling into the trap of over interpreting their chart.
Some people who are not conversant with astrology will learn about their Sun
sign, and subconsciously play out that role, not realizing that there are
stronger influences from other sources in their natal chart. Other people
who are more conversant with astrology will look at the more obscure
details, and maybe assume that everything is equally significant, and play
out the roles dictated by less significant details. This is a form of
auto-suggestion in both cases, and leads to unrealized potential. So some
amount of perspective is required to know what is the most important
influences, and how to make the best of who you are and how you experience
life. This perspective is ultimately an art form that grows out of a never
ending process of learning, growing and evolving as a person. So that's my
philosophical take on astrology.
I took a look at your chart, and you do indeed have Sun transiting sextile
to Natal Pluto exact 10/29/1999. This is a very short-term influence,
lasting a couple of days or so. If it were the other way around, Pluto
transiting sextile to natal Sun, it would be a much longer lasting transit
(due to the slow movement of Pluto), and it would hit probably three,
possibly five times and last a couple of years. This would be a much more
significant influence than Sun transiting Pluto. The Pluto transiting
square natal Sun you have coming up (I have it too) will be an exact hit on
1/18/2000, 5/15/2000, and 11/15/2000. It generally has influence felt about
three months before and after the exact hit, and may have another secondary
period without an exact hit as Pluto retrogrades and goes direct back and
forth near the exact position. The Sun transiting to Pluto can have it's
creative qualities, but it will be more personal, not necessarily involving
other people. The Pluto transiting square Sun is more of a power struggle
type of situation. You may already be feeling this. I know I am. I work
in Tech Support. Today, I had to tell a guy who wasn't cooperating and
wasn't willing to consider my suggestions that there was nothing more I
could do for him. This might be the first time ever I close an incident
with a resolution code of "unresolved". This is the kind of power struggles
I'm learning to deal with in a Pluto transiting square Sun.
Mark
Beep
wrote:
What do you think of Sun/Pluto in synastry?
I have lots of friends with their Suns conjunct and opp my Pluto...I
grew up in a household where my Pluto was opp one's Sun, square two
others, and for the last their Pluto squared my Sun :)
Pam
never a dull moment
jer...@my-deja.com
I see. I agree with you that a laundry list of events would be a big
drag. And the person would run the danger of all prophecies being
self fulfilling. Hmmm. Actually, I am starting to see that being an
astrologer might bring up all kinds of ethical questions.
Did you ever read CS Lewis' CHRONICLES OF NARNIA? In the second book,
PRINCE CASPIAN, Caspian and his tutor go up to the top of the castle
at night, and the tutor shows him two great planets coming into
conjunction, and he says, "There! Tarva and Umbril have kissed." This
wasn't an everyday sort of alignment. It was a big major one that
indicated great events coming on. It indicated, in fact, that Narnia
would be re-established, and Caspian, of course, was to be her king.
Are there great big alignments like that in a person's life? Not that
I aim to be king. But what I really want is knowledge of my destiny:
if I am meant to be one thing or another.
--Jeri
Mark Martin
> On Thu, 28 Oct 1999 01:00:31 CST, Mark Martin <mpma...@bwn.net>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >Let me say a few things about Pluto. IMHO, a lot of the fear surrounding
> >Pluto that is often expressed in this group is unnecessarily exaggerated. I
> >know, I was one of the people talking about my Sun - Pluto conjunction, and
> >all the terrible things that happened to me, so I'm guilty of this
> >exaggeration too.
>
> What do you think of Sun/Pluto in synastry?
>
> I have lots of friends with their Suns conjunct and opp my Pluto...I
> grew up in a household where my Pluto was opp one's Sun, square two
> others, and for the last their Pluto squared my Sun :)
I wouldn't think that Pluto - Sun interactions would be particularly romantic.
Interestingly though, Pluto conjunct Sun is considered a key aspect for a solid
relationship. The Pluto person is a major influence in the Sun person's life,
bring some rather intense changes into this person's life. Pluto either thinks
of Sun as a sort of hero or heroine, or despises this person and everything they
represent. Pluto can psychologically overpower Sun. The whole thing leaves me
with the impression of a co-dependent relationship with a sort of guru or
father-figure. How Pluto handles this would determine whether the relationship
was dysfunctional or not. I remember the U2 lyrics:
"Have you come here for forgiveness?
Have you come here to raise the dead?
Have you come here to play Jesus
To the lepers in your head?"
I would think that Sun opposite Pluto would also be considered a key aspect, but
it's not. The same type of interaction is going on here, but with a twist. The
Sun person might have a stronger counter-reaction to Pluto's power trips, and in
so doing, transform themselves, rather than being transformed by Pluto. In this
case, Sun tends to get the upper hand, and Pluto will want to re-evaluate where
they are coming from and why they want to change the Sun person. There's a sort
of turning away from each other, causing each person to examine themselves in a
new light.
Sun square Pluto strangely seems to indicate great intimacy, especially
sexually. This becomes a serious problem and breaks down as the Sun person feels
invaded or violated by Pluto. This would be understandable if Pluto becomes
obsessive of Sun. There's a significant lesson to be learned here. If the
conflict is resolved and an understanding reached, then the process could have a
bonding effect in the relationship.
I should give Sun trine Pluto some air time too. This is a mutually
regenerative, self-renewing partnership. Sun benefits from Pluto's insights or
resources, while Pluto is given much needed confidence by Sun's convincing
appreciation or admiration of Pluto's qualities. Together, the two people can
make changes in their sphere of influence, whether it's society, work
environment, family, or in whatever context the relationship operates.
>
> Pam
> never a dull moment
>
> email address:
> beep at west dot net
> Rheumatic Disease info:
> http://www.silcom.com/~sblc
Mark
Pete Phoenix
--
Mark Martin <mpma...@bwn.net> wrote in message
news:38194D11...@bwn.net...
[snip]
Hi Mark,
I'm enjoying your insight here. I went through a three year
relationship with a girl who's Pluto was opposite my Sun. There
was a lot more tied into this, as her Uranus was also opposite,
and her Chiron/ Saturn was conjunct. (phew!!). She was and still
is, one of the most accomplished emotional manipulators I have
ever met.
For a long time I allowed myself to be dragged hither and yon by
her intense and powerful emotional undertow, but eventually, over
time, I began to respond differently to all these shennanigans.
To put it simply, I worked hard to stay in "Adult" mode, and not
get dragged into "Good Parent", who was often seen as "Bad
Parent".
I did indeed have to transform myself in a most fundamental way.
And I turned away from her finally, 2 months before the wedding.
Why did I stay with her so long? In the words of the old gag: "I
needed the eggs."
And my Chiron is on her Venus.
> Sun square Pluto strangely seems to indicate great intimacy,
especially
> sexually. This becomes a serious problem and breaks down as
the Sun person feels
> invaded or violated by Pluto. This would be understandable if
Pluto becomes
> obsessive of Sun. There's a significant lesson to be learned
here. If the
> conflict is resolved and an understanding reached, then the
process could have a
> bonding effect in the relationship.
>
> I should give Sun trine Pluto some air time too. This is a
mutually
> regenerative, self-renewing partnership. Sun benefits from
Pluto's insights or
> resources, while Pluto is given much needed confidence by Sun's
convincing
> appreciation or admiration of Pluto's qualities. Together, the
two people can
> make changes in their sphere of influence, whether it's
society, work
> environment, family, or in whatever context the relationship
operates.
> Mark
Pete.
**Dream as if you'll live forever...
Live as if you'll die today...**
>
>
Beep
wrote:
>Beep wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 28 Oct 1999 01:00:31 CST, Mark Martin <mpma...@bwn.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >Let me say a few things about Pluto. IMHO, a lot of the fear surrounding
>> >Pluto that is often expressed in this group is unnecessarily exaggerated. I
>> >know, I was one of the people talking about my Sun - Pluto conjunction, and
>> >all the terrible things that happened to me, so I'm guilty of this
>> >exaggeration too.
>>
>> What do you think of Sun/Pluto in synastry?
>>
>> I have lots of friends with their Suns conjunct and opp my Pluto...I
>> grew up in a household where my Pluto was opp one's Sun, square two
>> others, and for the last their Pluto squared my Sun :)
>
>I wouldn't think that Pluto - Sun interactions would be particularly romantic.
>Interestingly though, Pluto conjunct Sun is considered a key aspect for a solid
>relationship. The Pluto person is a major influence in the Sun person's life,
>bring some rather intense changes into this person's life. Pluto either thinks
>of Sun as a sort of hero or heroine, or despises this person and everything they
>represent. Pluto can psychologically overpower Sun. The whole thing leaves me
>with the impression of a co-dependent relationship with a sort of guru or
>father-figure. How Pluto handles this would determine whether the relationship
>was dysfunctional or not. I remember the U2 lyrics:
>"Have you come here for forgiveness?
>Have you come here to raise the dead?
>Have you come here to play Jesus
>To the lepers in your head?"
Interesting.
I have had quite a few platonic friendships with my Pluto conjunct
their sun...I'm trying to translate what you have said into that
context.
>
>I would think that Sun opposite Pluto would also be considered a key aspect, but
>it's not. The same type of interaction is going on here, but with a twist. The
>Sun person might have a stronger counter-reaction to Pluto's power trips, and in
>so doing, transform themselves, rather than being transformed by Pluto. In this
>case, Sun tends to get the upper hand, and Pluto will want to re-evaluate where
>they are coming from and why they want to change the Sun person. There's a sort
>of turning away from each other, causing each person to examine themselves in a
>new light.
Hmm.
The relatives that I have this aspect with...we aren't in contact,
now.
Some friends have stuck with it, but we aren't as close as we once
were (my Pluto, their sun)
>
>Sun square Pluto strangely seems to indicate great intimacy, especially
>sexually. This becomes a serious problem and breaks down as the Sun person feels
>invaded or violated by Pluto. This would be understandable if Pluto becomes
>obsessive of Sun. There's a significant lesson to be learned here. If the
>conflict is resolved and an understanding reached, then the process could have a
>bonding effect in the relationship.
Well the one I was thinking of was NOT a sexual relationship at
all...it is a parent/child relationship which went through a lot of
truly horrific things before a bond of friendship was made (parent's
Pluto square child's sun)
>
>I should give Sun trine Pluto some air time too. This is a mutually
>regenerative, self-renewing partnership. Sun benefits from Pluto's insights or
>resources, while Pluto is given much needed confidence by Sun's convincing
>appreciation or admiration of Pluto's qualities. Together, the two people can
>make changes in their sphere of influence, whether it's society, work
>environment, family, or in whatever context the relationship operates.
Trine?
What's that?
(me looks around in my life...draws a blank ;) )
Mark, thank you for what you have written. I will save it for
reference; it was very interesting and thought-provoking.
Pam
Pluto-ruled
Max Grudzien
"....Sun opposite Pluto.....The Sun person might have a stronger
counter-reaction to Pluto's power trips, and in so doing, transform
themselves, rather than being transformed by Pluto. In this case, Sun
tends to get the upper hand, and Pluto will want to re-evaluate where they
are coming from and why they want to change the Sun person. There's a sort
of turning away from each other, causing each person to examine themselves
This is Dead on IMO. I was working with a lady at the base on development
of a new computer system whose Mars/Pluto conjunction in Virgo opposed my
Sun/Venus conjunction in Pisces. (I also have the same Sun/Pluto opp
natally within a half degree orb.) Originally we got on well together but
as more responsibility was delegated to her by supervisors all of her
latent "stuff" started emerging (this was also noticed by other personnel)
and consequently I developed a strong "allergic" reaction to her power
trips, aggressiveness, and dominating tactics, to the point where we had
limited personal interaction (although we were only about 2-300 ft apart in
different rooms). The result (i.e. transformation) is that I've learned to
be more self-assertive, and not be used/manipulated by people who are prone
to doing so to others (whether it's conscious or unconscious).
In general, I also think all Sun/Pluto interaspects have some sort of
karmic meaning IMO, but this is intuition on my part.
Max
Thomas Seers
Mark Martin wrote:
>
> Beep wrote:
>
> > On Thu, 28 Oct 1999 01:00:31 CST, Mark Martin <mpma...@bwn.net>
> > wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >Let me say a few things about Pluto. IMHO, a lot of the fear surrounding
> > >Pluto that is often expressed in this group is unnecessarily exaggerated. I
> > >know, I was one of the people talking about my Sun - Pluto conjunction, and
> > >all the terrible things that happened to me, so I'm guilty of this
> > >exaggeration too.
> >
> > What do you think of Sun/Pluto in synastry?
> >
> > I have lots of friends with their Suns conjunct and opp my Pluto...I
> > grew up in a household where my Pluto was opp one's Sun, square two
> > others, and for the last their Pluto squared my Sun :)
>
> I wouldn't think that Pluto - Sun interactions would be particularly romantic.
> Interestingly though, Pluto conjunct Sun is considered a key aspect for a solid
> relationship.
I doubt it :), though there are many inovations in astrology today. A
Sun/Mars conjunction is a negative aspect, therefore a Sun/Pluto
conjunction would be more intense, not recommended.
Thomas
The Pluto person is a major influence in the Sun person's life,
> bring some rather intense changes into this person's life. Pluto either thinks
> of Sun as a sort of hero or heroine, or despises this person and everything they
> represent. Pluto can psychologically overpower Sun. The whole thing leaves me
> with the impression of a co-dependent relationship with a sort of guru or
> father-figure. How Pluto handles this would determine whether the relationship
> was dysfunctional or not. I remember the U2 lyrics:
> "Have you come here for forgiveness?
> Have you come here to raise the dead?
> Have you come here to play Jesus
> To the lepers in your head?"
>
> I would think that Sun opposite Pluto would also be considered a key aspect, but
> it's not. The same type of interaction is going on here, but with a twist. The
> Sun person might have a stronger counter-reaction to Pluto's power trips, and in
> so doing, transform themselves, rather than being transformed by Pluto. In this
> case, Sun tends to get the upper hand, and Pluto will want to re-evaluate where
> they are coming from and why they want to change the Sun person. There's a sort
> of turning away from each other, causing each person to examine themselves in a
> new light.
>
> Sun square Pluto strangely seems to indicate great intimacy, especially
> sexually. This becomes a serious problem and breaks down as the Sun person feels
> invaded or violated by Pluto. This would be understandable if Pluto becomes
> obsessive of Sun. There's a significant lesson to be learned here. If the
> conflict is resolved and an understanding reached, then the process could have a
> bonding effect in the relationship.
>
> I should give Sun trine Pluto some air time too. This is a mutually
> regenerative, self-renewing partnership. Sun benefits from Pluto's insights or
> resources, while Pluto is given much needed confidence by Sun's convincing
> appreciation or admiration of Pluto's qualities. Together, the two people can
> make changes in their sphere of influence, whether it's society, work
> environment, family, or in whatever context the relationship operates.
>
> >
> > Pam
> > never a dull moment
> >
> > email address:
> > beep at west dot net
> > Rheumatic Disease info:
> > http://www.silcom.com/~sblc
>
> Mark
--
*****************************************
Thomas Seers AMAFA
E-mail: Se...@astro-clinic.com
Lebanon, TN 37087
Tel (615) 453-5133 Fax (615) 453-0031
http://www.acelink.net/users/belzar/
*****************************************
Pedantus
Thomas Seers <bel...@acelink.net> wrote in message
news:3819948E...@acelink.net...
>
>
> Mark Martin wrote:
> >
> > Beep wrote:
> >
> > > On Thu, 28 Oct 1999 01:00:31 CST, Mark Martin <mpma...@bwn.net>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > >
surrounding
> > > >Pluto that is often expressed in this group is unnecessarily
exaggerated. I
> > > >know, I was one of the people talking about my Sun - Pluto
conjunction, and
> > > >all the terrible things that happened to me, so I'm guilty of
this
> > > >exaggeration too.
> > >
> > >
> > > I have lots of friends with their Suns conjunct and opp my
Pluto...I
> > > grew up in a household where my Pluto was opp one's Sun, square
two
> > > others, and for the last their Pluto squared my Sun :)
> >
> > I wouldn't think that Pluto - Sun interactions would be particularly
romantic.
> > Interestingly though, Pluto conjunct Sun is considered a key aspect
for a solid
> > relationship.
>
> I doubt it :), though there are many inovations in astrology today. A
> Sun/Mars conjunction is a negative aspect, therefore a Sun/Pluto
> conjunction would be more intense, not recommended.
> Thomas
Sheesh, you know I love you, Thomas, but every now and then I think
you are the reincarnation of William Lilly. And, in this case, I think
you are correct...its not a socially accomodating aspect...unless there
is a war on at the time.
Rog
Beep
<rlsat...@exotrope.net> wrote:
>
>Thomas Seers <bel...@acelink.net> wrote in message
>news:3819948E...@acelink.net...
>>
>>
>> Mark Martin wrote:
>> >
>> > Beep wrote:
>> >
>> > > On Thu, 28 Oct 1999 01:00:31 CST, Mark Martin <mpma...@bwn.net>
>> > > wrote:
>> > >
>> > > >
>> > > >Let me say a few things about Pluto. IMHO, a lot of the fear
>surrounding
>> > > >Pluto that is often expressed in this group is unnecessarily
>exaggerated. I
>> > > >know, I was one of the people talking about my Sun - Pluto
>conjunction, and
>> > > >all the terrible things that happened to me, so I'm guilty of
>this
>> > > >exaggeration too.
>> > >
>> > > What do you think of Sun/Pluto in synastry?
>> > >
>> > > I have lots of friends with their Suns conjunct and opp my
>Pluto...I
>> > > grew up in a household where my Pluto was opp one's Sun, square
>two
>> > > others, and for the last their Pluto squared my Sun :)
>> >
>> > I wouldn't think that Pluto - Sun interactions would be particularly
>romantic.
>> > Interestingly though, Pluto conjunct Sun is considered a key aspect
>for a solid
>> > relationship.
>>
>> I doubt it :), though there are many inovations in astrology today. A
>> Sun/Mars conjunction is a negative aspect, therefore a Sun/Pluto
>> conjunction would be more intense, not recommended.
>> Thomas
>
> Sheesh, you know I love you, Thomas, but every now and then I think
>you are the reincarnation of William Lilly. And, in this case, I think
>you are correct...its not a socially accomodating aspect...unless there
>is a war on at the time.
>
>
>Rog
>
>
>>
>>
Well, I have this with a huge proportion of my friends...and my family
:)
Pam
this means war??? ;)
Tad Perry
>drag. And the person would run the danger of all prophecies being
>self fulfilling. Hmmm. Actually, I am starting to see that being an
>astrologer might bring up all kinds of ethical questions.
>
>Did you ever read CS Lewis' CHRONICLES OF NARNIA? In the second book,
>PRINCE CASPIAN, Caspian and his tutor go up to the top of the castle
>at night, and the tutor shows him two great planets coming into
>conjunction, and he says, "There! Tarva and Umbril have kissed." This
>wasn't an everyday sort of alignment. It was a big major one that
>indicated great events coming on. It indicated, in fact, that Narnia
>would be re-established, and Caspian, of course, was to be her king.
>
>Are there great big alignments like that in a person's life? Not that
>I aim to be king. But what I really want is knowledge of my destiny:
>if I am meant to be one thing or another.
One time I said the following to somebody and it clicked for them. It
might for you, too.
There is no past and future.
There are two futures.
You get to pick which you're going to have.
One is the destiny that makes you, born out of what you perceive to be
the past.
The other is the destiny you make, born out of what you perceive to be
the future.
In all cases, the thing you are about to become is the thing you were
"meant to be" when you consider the karmic rules that are in place
that make it all happen if you opt to cede control.
tvp
jer...@my-deja.com
>>jeriwho wrote:
>>Are there great big alignments like that in a person's life? Not that
>>I aim to be king. But what I really want is knowledge of my destiny:
>>if I am meant to be one thing or another.
>One time I said the following to somebody and it clicked for them. It
>might for you, too.
>There is no past and future.
>There are two futures.
>You get to pick which you're going to have.
>One is the destiny that makes you, born out of what you perceive to be
>the past.
>The other is the destiny you make, born out of what you perceive to be
>the future.
>In all cases, the thing you are about to become is the thing you were
>"meant to be" when you consider the karmic rules that are in place
>that make it all happen if you opt to cede control.
>tvp
I think that is an intriguiing philosophy to have as an overall
approach to life, but I am taking a much more strategic approach to a
single, definite goal. I want to know exactly what conditions are
favorable and how much influence they have over actual events so that
I can make a strategy and act upon it. My own past doesn't come into
play at all except for the skills I have accumulated and now hold in
possession. My own future as a global thing is not my target. I just
want as much information as possible to achieve a specific goal that I
want to achieve.
If the stars carry no weight in terms of what others do or what I can
expect form my environment, then I will plan my strategy one way. But
if the stars do carry an influence on things that will happen out of
my personal control, I would like to know how influential they are and
what the indications are so that I can behave in accord with them to
achieve my ends.
Hope that clarifies it!
Tad Perry
Here is where you err. And seeing it is important. The past is
*always* in play.
Even though I admit that it is completely over-come-able, I will never
say that it is *ever* over-look-able under any circumstances.
The degree to which you learn it's lessons indicates it's
"over-come-able-ness", the degree to which you ignore those lessons is
the degree to which it will bite you in the ass.
(Pardon the vulgarity, it sounded so much better that way.)
>My own future as a global thing is not my target. I just
>want as much information as possible to achieve a specific goal that I
>want to achieve.
If you put the effort necessary into getting there, the chance of
getting there is maximized.
The planets are best viewed as the energies of the past OR the
opportunities of the future.
Pick one.
tvp
Michael Johnson
I thought this list was just a software release list. Is this the norm to be
discussing astrological techniques and such? (Not that I mind, I just want
to clarify my own understanding.)
--
Best Wishes,
Michael
Rajeev Upadhye <yuy...@giaspn01.vsnl.net.in> wrote in message
news:Pine.OSF.3.96.991030...@giaspn01.vsnl.net.in...
> HAMW - http://sos.netonecom.net/webpub/AstroSoftware/ham.htm
>
>
>
> I have an experience of Sun|pluto relationship. My friend's pluto is
> tightly conjunct my Sun. Add to that venus! They are conjunct too.
> Some one described this as "two psychological octopuses wrestling
> constantly...". Yes. It is stimulating but at times very tiring too
> because pluto tries to manipulate Sun.
>
> I was told that it creates a lasting creative bond.
>
>
> Hope this helps
>
> Rajeev
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________________
> To unsubscribe, write to HAMW-uns...@listbot.com
> Start Your Own FREE Email List at http://www.listbot.com/
>
jer...@my-deja.com
>>My own past doesn't come into
>>play at all except for the skills I have accumulated and now hold in
>>possession.
>Here is where you err. And seeing it is important. The past is
>*always* in play.
No, Tad, it really isn't. Not in terms of making a strategy. I've
supplied a client with everything available to support the client up
to this point, and I need to know the client's mindset. Case closed.
My past really doesn't enter into it. If the client is favorable or
interested in my process, I would like to know this, and I will
continue to make the time investment to gain the client for future
support processes. If the client is unable to view my method as
workable in his situation, then I would like to just close up shop and
move on. It's a matter of wanting to know how amenable the client is.
This doesn't have much to do with my past. It does have to do with
conditions being favorable, or the client himself being favorable to a
particular process of support.
At first I was concerned that the Pluto situation (since so many
people seem to think of it as unlucky or bad) indicated that this was
just a bad time to offer a support method to a client. I was
wondering if I should wait.
Otherwise, my only interest for myself in terms of the Pluto
situation is the idea that maybe the time is now right for me to
discover a flaw in the process itself or in my methodology of creating
the support process for the client. As I understand it, Pluto's
influence is to discover what needs to be killed off in order to
bring to llife a transformed, living replacement.
I suppose I could use this event, (or any event) to sit and stare at
myself and my past, but I have a job to do and a goal to reach and a
client to win. And even though introspection does make up a part of
my life, not this part. For this I need strategy, information, and
decision.
>>My own future as a global thing is not my target. I just
>>want as much information as possible to achieve a specific goal that I
>>want to achieve.
>If you put the effort necessary into getting there, the chance of
>getting there is maximized.
Thank you, I know that. Having done all that I could do, I would like
to know if the stars/planets have any influence on conditions
themselves.
>The planets are best viewed as the energies of the past OR the
>opportunities of the future.
>Pick one.
I'm still looking to see if anybody can read them (or if they truly
have inflluence) as determiners of conditions that exist in a person's
environment. In othe words, if certain times under their influence
are more auspicious for winning a client than other times.
jw
Mark Martin
> Mark Martin <mpma...@bwn.net> wrote in message
> news:38194D11...@bwn.net...
> >
> > I would think that Sun opposite Pluto would also be considered
> a key aspect, but
> > it's not. The same type of interaction is going on here, but
> with a twist. The
> > Sun person might have a stronger counter-reaction to Pluto's
> power trips, and in
> > so doing, transform themselves, rather than being transformed
> by Pluto. In this
> > case, Sun tends to get the upper hand, and Pluto will want to
> re-evaluate where
> > they are coming from and why they want to change the Sun
> person. There's a sort
> > of turning away from each other, causing each person to examine
> themselves in a
> > new light.
> >
> Hi Mark,
> I'm enjoying your insight here. I went through a three year
> relationship with a girl who's Pluto was opposite my Sun. There
> was a lot more tied into this, as her Uranus was also opposite,
> and her Chiron/ Saturn was conjunct. (phew!!). She was and still
> is, one of the most accomplished emotional manipulators I have
> ever met.
> For a long time I allowed myself to be dragged hither and yon by
> her intense and powerful emotional undertow, but eventually, over
> time, I began to respond differently to all these shennanigans.
> To put it simply, I worked hard to stay in "Adult" mode, and not
> get dragged into "Good Parent", who was often seen as "Bad
> Parent".
> I did indeed have to transform myself in a most fundamental way.
> And I turned away from her finally, 2 months before the wedding.
>
> Why did I stay with her so long? In the words of the old gag: "I
> needed the eggs."
> And my Chiron is on her Venus.
This is fascinating. I was just summarizing the sections on these
particular four cross-aspects from Lyn Birkbeck "Do It Yourself
Relationship Astrology". Now, at least a couple of people are
confirming the indications from what I wrote. I'm pretty impressed with
Birkbeck's ability to synthesize the interpretations and come up with
situations and responses that are likely to occur.
It would be interesting to see, Pete, if this girl you mentioned had
things in her natal chart, or maybe progressions that made her a
particularly Plutonian type of personality? Or was it just the
interaction between the two of you that brought out all this
manipulation? Also, how close was the orb on this aspect?
I'm still a bit perplexed at why Birkbeck considers Sun conj. Pluto a
"key aspect". I guess this isn't necessarily a negative aspect, if both
sides make the best of it. But then, I don't think a "key aspect" needs
to be positive, just significant; in this case the Pluto person makes a
significant impact on the Sun person's life. It could be a therapist,
professor, manager, legal counselor, marriage counselor, or anyone else
who makes a profound, transforming change in the person's life without
it being a romantic relationship. There are some aspects that Birkbeck
indicates are both "key" and "teardrop aspect", or particularly
sorrowful. e.g. Moon opp. Pluto. Here, he's saying the Pluto person
emotionally feeds off the Moon person in order to subconsciously gain a
position of power. There's a parent-child type relationship happening,
a lot of crap going on that in the end either makes or breaks the
relationship. Yuck.
Mark
Beep
wrote:
>There are some aspects that Birkbeck
>indicates are both "key" and "teardrop aspect", or particularly
>sorrowful. e.g. Moon opp. Pluto. Here, he's saying the Pluto person
>emotionally feeds off the Moon person in order to subconsciously gain a
>position of power. There's a parent-child type relationship happening,
>a lot of crap going on that in the end either makes or breaks the
>relationship. Yuck.
Heh.
What about Moon square Pluto...?
Pam
I may have to buy the book
April
*** I like it!
> I suppose I could use this event, (or any event) to sit and stare at
> myself and my past, but I have a job to do and a goal to reach and a
> client to win. And even though introspection does make up a part of
> my life, not this part. For this I need strategy, information, and
> decision.
>
> >>My own future as a global thing is not my target. I just
> >>want as much information as possible to achieve a specific goal that I
> >>want to achieve.
>
> >If you put the effort necessary into getting there, the chance of
> >getting there is maximized.
>
> Thank you, I know that. Having done all that I could do, I would like
> to know if the stars/planets have any influence on conditions
> themselves.
>
> >The planets are best viewed as the energies of the past OR the
> >opportunities of the future.
>
> >Pick one.
>
> I'm still looking to see if anybody can read them (or if they truly
> have inflluence) as determiners of conditions that exist in a person's
> environment. In othe words, if certain times under their influence
> are more auspicious for winning a client than other times.
>
> jw
I would say, yes, definitely they can be read that way, I just would
prefer to say "indicators"--as in, *describing* the conditions-- rather
than "determiners," which suggests the planets are actually, physically
exerting sway. But, that's me, and you'll probably find many
astrologers who believe in a causal explanation of planetary influences.
In any case, I suspect what you might be looking for is a good,
traditional, cookbook style guide to transits, such as Rob Hand's
classic "Planets in Transits." It sounds as though we are all jumping
in with best intentions to give you ideology when what you really need
in this instance is good old fashioned, nuts and bolts stuff, practical
stuff like, "What's the best day to have this meeting?" Am I reading
you here? And I think Hand's book is a really terrific place to start.
I think March & McEvers' "The Only Way to Learn About Horary and
Electional Astrology" (or something very close to that) is quite good
too, depending on your level of technical astrological understanding.
Hope this helps!
All the best,
April Kent
Heather
first..LOL because I like him ( Hi Tad) <wink> and then read your
reply to him which I found very revealing. I had no idea what
your DOB was yet said to myself as I read your words"accumulated"
"now hold in possession" and "win". I said to myself this is one
negged out scorpionic person or a negative operating sun-pluto.
I then went to the top of the thread and found your DOB and yes
I was correct without even knowing your DOB to begin with.
First
of all I've been an astrologer for over 8 years but because
of my head for business.. Astrology is not my main profession..
even though I utilize it every day. With that said I have been
in Sales working with clients for over 13 years in many dog eat
dog arenas and been number one in sales no matter what I did.
Why? easy... I don't look at clients as "winning". I look at them as
human beings that in many cases have become my friends as well.
People I care about enough to "improve" their situation.
I cannot sell anyone anything that I truly feel would not or
could not work for them. A good example is me selling
more ads than anyone but upon seeing that the product
itself that someone else created was NOT improving
my clients bottom line..I quit. Yes...I am that caring and
that honest..
yes you Can care, be honest and still be number one
with out looking at it as "winning". You don't "win" clients,
you cultivate relationships to improve conditions. Until
you stop viewing people as something you "win" you
will always be lost. And I for one will not teach anyone
how to use astrology for such a negative reason as you
are searching for. You have much to learn it seems; not just
about Astrology, but much more importantly, how to view
people. I'm an extremely intuitive person and quite frankly
anyone who needs to use or ask about astrology in regards
to "winning" clients..immediately tells me that they are failing
at it without astrology.
"Your process" in sales is the kiss of death. There is no room
for "your" anything when dealing with clients. It's not about
"you" it's about "them" Perhaps it's my attitude about clients
that has got me where I am today. I learned it from my Dad as a child
and he became a millionaire with the exact same approach that
I use too.. It's because of this approach
that I was asked to be Director of sales for a startup company that
sold triple what the competition was selling and they had 20 times
our financial resources. Serve others and not yourself and you
will go far. Ye shall reap what you have sown.
If you want to know about Pluto..you're going to learn quite
a bit about him in the years to come. He seems to already
have you firmly in his sight ; and apparently won't be letting
go for many years..which looks like you're in for quite
a ride. Only Pluto can create scenarios to wake you
up. I can't.
Good Luck to You.
Heather
jer...@my-deja.com wrote in message
<7vhnfb$2in$1...@nntp3.atl.mindspring.net>...
jer...@my-deja.com
> I had to sit for awhile before writing this. I started reading Tad's post
>first..LOL because I like him ( Hi Tad) <wink> and then read your
>reply to him which I found very revealing. I had no idea what
>your DOB was yet said to myself as I read your words"accumulated"
>"now hold in possession" and "win". I said to myself this is one
>negged out scorpionic person or a negative operating sun-pluto.
>I then went to the top of the thread and found your DOB and yes
>I was correct without even knowing your DOB to begin with.
No, I'm Virgo, with Sagittarius---something. Rising. No, Ascendent.
No, First House. Wait. Virgo with Sagitarius in the Moon? Oh,
that's not right. I'll check. [walks away to find charts]
I'm Virgo: Sun in VIrgo; Moon in Pisces; Sagittarius Ascendant
Sept 4, 1960
2:53 PM, EST (DST)
Philadelphia PA
Thank you for this excellent sermon. Now let me tell you this: I
have put six months into entirely free work for this person and have
been glad to do it. My work is an avocation of teaching women to
protect themselves from men who are harassing them. I am dealing with
a woman who has been harassed, stalked, and publicly humiliated by a
man. I have spent six months explaining to her the psychology of
violence, control, and harassment, and I have succeeded in seeing her
learn to keep her mind, emotions, and skills marshalled when he calls
her up repeatedly or sends her harassing mail.
But I must win, yes *win* her trust and confidence so that she will
allow me to go beyond explaining principles and begin to implement
definite actions that will keep her protected and push back the person
harassing her.
I do not charge her anything. I do not plan to charge her anything.
My professional work writing software manuals keeps me in big buckets
of money. But yes, I must "win" her consent, her agreement, and her
actions. She is my client (not my friend) because our relationship
needs to be professional. Yet I am asking her to make a very personal
commitment to me, to give me her confidences about matters that are
personal to her. And I have to ask it dispassionately and
professionally. But yes, I care about her very much and am very
willing to make enormous sacrifices to help her.
The next time you decide to correct a Scorpio who is actually a Virgo.
who seems hell bent on making a sale but is actually trying to prevent
violence and harassment from escalating, maybe you ought to *ask*
before you preach.
>"Your process" in sales is the kiss of death. There is no room
>for "your" anything when dealing with clients. It's not about
>"you" it's about "them" Perhaps it's my attitude about clients
>that has got me where I am today. I learned it from my Dad as a child
>and he became a millionaire with the exact same approach that
>I use too.. It's because of this approach
>that I was asked to be Director of sales for a startup company that
>sold triple what the competition was selling and they had 20 times
>our financial resources. Serve others and not yourself and you
>will go far. Ye shall reap what you have sown.
>If you want to know about Pluto..you're going to learn quite
>a bit about him in the years to come. He seems to already
>have you firmly in his sight ; and apparently won't be letting
>go for many years..which looks like you're in for quite
>a ride. Only Pluto can create scenarios to wake you
>up. I can't.
Oh, believe me, Heather, you e-mail has been quite revealing. Thank
you.
If Pluto is the killing off of what needs to be killed, then I surely
do need Pluto. ven if Pluto's actions are painful, I want to be
transformed to a person who can win others to the support of martial
thinking and calmness. To be persuasive with women who have been
victimized, I need transparency and openness with my clients. But
with all my shortcomings, I have found I do possess one distinct
quality, Heather When they ask me a question, I answer the question
that they asked.
But right now, I want to win this cllient. As my initial work closes
up, I have to wait for her decision on how she wants to proceed, and I
want to know if there is a "best time" in terms of planetary
influences to present her with a list of options she can choose that
will continue her development along these lines. But it is almost
time for her to make a commitment or for her to seek other options. I
just want to put a plan in front of her at the best possible time.
jer...@my-deja.com
>>jer...@my-deja.com wrote:
>> Otherwise, my only interest for myself in terms of the Pluto
>> situation is the idea that maybe the time is now right for me to
>> discover a flaw in the process itself or in my methodology of creating
>> the support process for the client. As I understand it, Pluto's
>> influence is to discover what needs to be killed off in order to
>> bring to llife a transformed, living replacement.
>*** I like it!
Hmmm, I think I got the wording from Mark Martin. If it didn't come
from Mark Martin, then I think I got it from a two-part article on
Pluto that I searched out on the web. (ah, Plagiarism! Such a time
saver!)
But the real, question, April, is do you as an astrologer think that
it is an accurate way to describe Pluto's influence? I know you will
answer directly, clearly, and without a lecture. And for this, my
gentle friend, THANK YOU.
<SNIP>
>I would say, yes, definitely they can be read that way, I just would
>prefer to say "indicators"--as in, *describing* the conditions-- rather
>than "determiners," which suggests the planets are actually, physically
>exerting sway. But, that's me, and you'll probably find many
>astrologers who believe in a causal explanation of planetary influences.
>In any case, I suspect what you might be looking for is a good,
>traditional, cookbook style guide to transits, such as Rob Hand's
>classic "Planets in Transits." It sounds as though we are all jumping
>in with best intentions to give you ideology when what you really need
>in this instance is good old fashioned, nuts and bolts stuff, practical
>stuff like, "What's the best day to have this meeting?" Am I reading
>you here? And I think Hand's book is a really terrific place to start.
>I think March & McEvers' "The Only Way to Learn About Horary and
>Electional Astrology" (or something very close to that) is quite good
>too, depending on your level of technical astrological understanding.
'
Ah, books! Where would us Virgos be without them? I just saw a
reference to PLANETS IN TRANSITS on the web site that lets you make
your own chart report. (It lets you connect to Astrodienst (sp?) and
then come back and look up everything on your chart)
As soon as I pay off my gym dues for the year, I shall plan to buy it.
March & McEvers' "The Only Way to Learn About Horary and
Electional Astrology" seems less well known, but I think I dug up a
site devoted to horary books, so I will check that.
Is that really what I am asking? Am I looking for some type of horary
chart that will tell me how the event will unfold?
Thanks again for the help!
April
>
> April <ro...@home.com> wrote:
>
> >>jer...@my-deja.com wrote:
> >> Otherwise, my only interest for myself in terms of the Pluto
> >> situation is the idea that maybe the time is now right for me to
> >> discover a flaw in the process itself or in my methodology of creating
> >> the support process for the client. As I understand it, Pluto's
> >> influence is to discover what needs to be killed off in order to
> >> bring to llife a transformed, living replacement.
>
> >*** I like it!
>
> Hmmm, I think I got the wording from Mark Martin. If it didn't come
> from Mark Martin, then I think I got it from a two-part article on
> Pluto that I searched out on the web. (ah, Plagiarism! Such a time
> saver!)
>
> But the real, question, April, is do you as an astrologer think that
> it is an accurate way to describe Pluto's influence? I know you will
> answer directly, clearly, and without a lecture. And for this, my
> gentle friend, THANK YOU.
*** Yes, I think your interpretation of uncovering flaws in a process or
methodology sounds quite appropriate for Pluto's influence. He also
seems to favor "bringing things back from the dead"--so, maybe
resucitating and revamping abandoned methodologies...?
*** I think a horary chart might be quite useful. Just ask the specific
question ("What approach can I take with my client that will demonstrate
the value of my services to best advantage?" or some such thing), note
the time, draw the chart--theoretically, all should be revealed. I have
found them useful in the past; the key is to ask the right question!
Another approach is to schedule important meetings or similar
interactions with your prospective client on days that are
advantageous. This falls more into the category of electional
astrology, and can be useful, but can get quite complicated; for this
reason, I tend to use electional astrology pretty sparingly--say, for
choosing a wedding date or a date to incorporate a business, that kind
of thing. For something of an important, but not necessarily
life-altering, nature, I might just check the moon's sign and aspects
for the date in question to get a feel for how things might go, and,
importantly, the kind of energy my client might best respond to on a
given day (as described by the moon's sign; for instance, when the moon
is in Libra, I might tend to ask them a lot of questions and tailor my
presentation to their reactions; when the moon is in Aries, I would try
to keep the presentation very short and to the point). If the moon is
making predominantly harmonious aspects to other transiting planets that
day, indications are good that the matter in question will go pretty
smoothly and make both parties reasonably happy. But if it's making a
lot of nasty aspects, we can expect to have to work a little harder to
get things to come out the way we want.
This is an extremely simplified explanation, of course. Suffice to say,
the idea behind electional astrology, as I understand it, is to use
astrology to flow with the momentum of the day, instead of struggling
against it. Some days are better for certain things than others, which
I guess we've all noticed; astrology can be a handy tool for figuring
out which things go better on which day! (Kind of like subtitles for a
foreign film.)
Anyway, the March & McEvers book is quite handy, and is probably
available also through Amazon.com.
I very much hope this has been helpful.
Heather
You were born with your Pisces moon opposite Pluto. Which
means your emotions and daily activities are influenced
by Pluto which governs the sign of Scorpio. You were also born
with the Sun in Virgo conjunct Pluto, albeit with a 6 degree separation
but nonetheless a conjunction when it come to affecting
the sun. again....scorpionic. Since you are new to astrology
I encourage you to begin by learning about your own chart.
Check out the book "Planets in Aspect" by Robert Pelletier
I will quote an excerpt concerning a setup in your own chart
to make a point.
moon opposite Pluto:
"You are naturally defiant of authority and may have difficulty in
dealing with the general public, although your job may require
such contact. Try to have consideration for the feelings of those you serve.
If you aren't careful you may become cranky and hard to
get along with, although you won't realize it"
I wasn't intending to lecture you only to point out that clients
(and it doesn't matter if money is exchanged or not. That's irrelevant)
are not "won" in any way shape or form. nor for that matter
is trust. You earn it. period. There are no planetary setups
that will "win" your clients trust. For that at this point I am
very happy about. LOL. Like I said there are no smoke
and mirrors about trust...no planetary magic.
By the way.. coincidentally I just spent the last 9 days being
harassed by a man by phone. It was very difficult to make this stop.
I got counseling by someone who cared and "won" me over
into changing my number <wink> dang that was hard to do.
( By the way in case you took that literally...no I didn't get
counseling.. I changed my number) <BG>
Sorry for the sarcasm but I've been stalked and harassed my
whole life by men...one way or another. It's about power
and control.
I have tried to help people my whole life too..be it with suicide, drugs,
men...you name it I've done it. But what I came to realize is
you cannot and I repeat cannot help ANYONE that doesn't
want to help themselves. You cannot fight their battles for them.
And by "helping" them as you call it you are making them weaker.
While what you are
doing is admirable ;when you come to realize that you must let go
of control in peoples lives to give them their own strength..
only then will you have truly helped them. hmmmm guess
when I realized this???? On the biggest Pluto hit to my
chart in my life. Just as I realize I cannot help you to see this...
only you can come to see this...hopefully before it's too late.
By the way the only way to "push back" a person is to put
them in jail . I doubt you advocate murder so that's off the list.
<smirk> restraining orders are worthless. Ironically as I am writing
this I just got a phone call with unknown name and unknown
number on my caller ID. Am I wigging out? nope. why?
yes it could be that this guy is well connected and got my new
unlisted phone number. If it's him will I fall to pieces?
nope.I'm in control not him. He's the one with the problem..
not me. That's something not any counselor
could teach me. it comes from within ....period. when you don't
give stalkers what they want... they fold. By the way...I assume
you've been stalked in your life correct? otherwise how could
you know the mindset of a stalker eh? <wink>
Take Care and be well.
Heather
jer...@my-deja.com wrote in message
<7vine0$gl0$1...@nntp8.atl.mindspring.net>...
Pete Phoenix
----- Original Message -----From: Michael JohnsonTo: Rajeev UpadhyeSent: 02 November 1999 01:56Subject: Re: Sun|Pluto in Synastry Re: Sun Sextile Pluto---good, bad? determiner , , or not?I misread. Sorry. I thought you said "highly UNlikely" and I disagreed. Yes,
I agree, it is "highly likely". Very strong physical attraction. Thanks for
your input.
Best Wishes,
Michael
----- Original Message -----
From: Rajeev Upadhye <yuy...@giaspn01.vsnl.net.in>
To: Michael Johnson <hek...@intergate.bc.ca>
Cc: Pete Phoenix <flam...@clara.co.uk>; <ha...@listbot.com>
Sent: Monday, November 01, 1999 5:58 PM
Subject: Re: Sun|Pluto in Synastry Re: Sun Sextile Pluto---good, bad?
determiner , , or not?
> On Mon, 1 Nov 1999, Michael Johnson wrote:
>
> | Does anyone have thoughts on the combination of the person A's Su to
> | person B's Ma/Ve=ASC?
> |
> | Best Wishes,
> | -Michael
>
>
> Its highly likely that the person A is attracted to B's personality.
>
> Harmonically (and harmoniously too),
>
> Rajeev Upadhye
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
> Fundamentals of Research Methodology | Address:
> =========== == ======== =========== | 4, Saket Society
> " Take the roots of some tree, | 12/3 A Kothrud
> Crush them with something, | Near Sangam Press
> Then give them to someone, | Pune 411 029
> Something will definitely happen..." | Maharashtra, INDIA
> | Phone - + 91 20 365685
> - PANCHA TANTRA | Fax + 91 20 365685
> (A Sanskrit Book of Parables) |
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
> Visit HAM-W web page at:
> http://sos.netonecom.net/webpub/AstroSoftware/ham.htm
>
============================================================================
=
>
>
Mark Martin
> On Sun, 31 Oct 1999 14:40:21 CST, Mark Martin <mpma...@bwn.net>
> wrote:
>
> >There are some aspects that Birkbeck
> >indicates are both "key" and "teardrop aspect", or particularly
> >sorrowful. e.g. Moon opp. Pluto. Here, he's saying the Pluto person
> >emotionally feeds off the Moon person in order to subconsciously gain a
> >position of power. There's a parent-child type relationship happening,
> >a lot of crap going on that in the end either makes or breaks the
> >relationship. Yuck.
>
> Heh.
>
> What about Moon square Pluto...?
>
Actually, the couple that I'm working with right now have this one.
Birkbeck flags this as a "teardrop aspect." The Moon person feels held in
a sort of psychological arm-lock by the Pluto person, or my term term is a
psychological strangle-hold. Pluto sees Moon as weak, pathetic,
ineffectual. Moon reacts (or retaliates) to this according to the emotional
structure described by the sign and house placement of the Moon in that
native's chart. With Moon in Sagittarius, he reacts irresponsibly and
outrageously when in any way restricted or obligated. He wants to assert
his freedom, to grow in his own way and be his own person. I should point
out that they've got a lot going for them -- a lot more than me and my
girlfriend have going for us (I don't even want to look at our synastry).
They've also got a Sun conj. Asc, as well as Asc opp. Asc. These are both
"key aspects". With Ascendants opposite, each one's Asc is in on the
other's 7th house cusp. Here, they're attracted to the Shadow side of
themselves as reflected in the other person, and learn to recognize and
integrate their Shadow Self. The Sun conj Asc is very beneficial, as they
enjoy helping each other out. I would say the most troublesome aspect,
though, is a Mercury square Mars, resulting in constant arguing and
bickering back and forth (which they do). The Moon squ. Pluto is probably
more profound, but also more subconscious than out in the open. A lot of
Pluto's action is more subconscious than conscious. This is where you feel
more compelled against your better judgment.
Mark
jer...@my-deja.com
>>jer...@my-deja.com wrote:
>> But the real, question, April, is do you as an astrologer think that
>> it is an accurate way to describe Pluto's influence? I know you will
>> answer directly, clearly, and without a lecture. And for this, my
>> gentle friend, THANK YOU.
>*** Yes, I think your interpretation of uncovering flaws in a process or
>methodology sounds quite appropriate for Pluto's influence. He also
>seems to favor "bringing things back from the dead"--so, maybe
>resucitating and revamping abandoned methodologies...?
Yes, that seems to be the consensus. Not much help in figuring out
how and when to best approach a client, but very helpful for choosing
a time to review and test a method. I'm thinking that the influence
of Pluto might assist in problems coming to light or the non-working
items to suddenly show up. But on to the horary question:
>> Is that really what I am asking? Am I looking for some type of horary
>> chart that will tell me how the event will unfold?
>>
>> Thanks again for the help!
>>
>*** I think a horary chart might be quite useful. Just ask the specific
>question ("What approach can I take with my client that will demonstrate
>the value of my services to best advantage?" or some such thing), note
>the time, draw the chart--theoretically, all should be revealed. I have
>found them useful in the past; the key is to ask the right question!
I have no idea how to read a horary chart, but I did check Amazon, and
yes they carry the March & McEvers book on horary astrology. In fact,
it is much more quickly available than Hand's book on transits, which
has to be special ordered (!) I may even order it tonight.
Thank you. This does seem like a complicated endeavour. But I'll
look into it.
I think at first I was thinking that there might be periods, like when
Venus is in conjunction with everything on a person's natal chart,
that a person would be very open, very receptive to ideas, very
willing to listen, very willing to trust another person. And if
Mercury were in conjunction with Jupiter for me at the exact same
time, I would be influenced to be forceful and precise in speech, sort
of at my astrological best when it comes to persuasion and speaking
articulately. So I was looking for a time when the client would be
receptive and open, and I would be articulate and highly organized in
my presentation. But from what I've been reading in the last three
days, those aspects only last for a day or two and don't seem all that
influential.
That was why the Pluto thing had me scared at first. I was concerned
that is was *unlucky* but after reading your posts and Mark's, it
seems that no aspect is really unlucky in and of itself. They just do
different things. It's all a matter of timing and harmony, as I
understand it.
Thank you again for the explanations and recommendations.
--jeri
doovinator
The whole situation I was talking about on the other post regarding the
Scorpio--well her sun/moon was not only conjunct my 7th cusp but also
RIGHT ON my Venus/Mars midpoint!!
What ELSE was there? She had a Yod between Jupiter/Uranus and Mercury;
my Gemini planets were right on the midpoint of the Jupiter/Uranus
sextile and "filled in" a yod for her with her sun/moon sextile Mars in
Capricorn. Her Mercury also "filled in"a grand sextile in my chart--I
have five points covered but not Sagittarius.
I'm waiting for the next comment!
KAYFOLSON
I have been loving this story. Being a scorpio, I have a similar one about a
GEMINI soulmate who last minute went off with a capricorn businesswoman[his
boss..] Oh yea, and this was AFTER he claimed his rights as my soulmate, and I
made the commitment to move, quit my job and leave my aries on and off
boyfriend. When I get to him, 800 miles later, I found out his boss made him an
offer he couldnt refuse.
After returning home I was heartbroken. He wouldnt even return my calls.
Finally one day there it was. In the mailbox, a beautiful ivory linen envelope
with a heart drawn on the outside. FINALLY> My heart was pounding as I held it
close to me. I think that the next 5 minutes was the closest I had ever been
to jumping off the balcony. IT was an invitation to their F******** Wedding.
Some Gemini's have nerve dont they!
<< EEZ!!
The whole situation I was talking about on the other post regarding the
Scorpio--well her sun/moon was not only conjunct my 7th cusp but also
RIGHT ON my Venus/Mars midpoint!!
>>
So your venus/mars = your descendant.Wow!
That is intense pressure on your partners..eh?'
They need to be the' be all-end all' to portray that point in your chart. That
is a heavily idealised and romantic notion for someone to live up to. I am not
surorised that when you found someone that fit , you tried to stick with. I
admire your wife for being straightforward and real.
<< or her with her sun/moon sextile Mars in
Capricorn. Her Mercury also "filled in"a grand sextile in my chart--I
have five points covered but not Sagittarius.
>>
Grand sextiles amaze me. I see where you get that wonderful turn of phrase,
that way with words and the ability to make connections. The web like links to
ideas that interconnect are great for astrological correlations.
kay
Being a scorpio like the ex you speak of, I am sure she knew, that to end her
letters with 'love' kept you hooked in to all those connections of yours.
Pete Phoenix
I'd say I'm not surprised that this relationship has had such a
deep impact on your life.
It looks like you have the midpoint ASC = VE/MA, indicating that
"Carnal Juice" and an appreciation of the erotic is pretty much
front-and-centre when it comes to how you approach relationships.
Your Scorpio friend plugged into that, good style, body (Sun) and
soul (Moon).
Whatever else was apparent in your synastry, this link-up would
ensure that you would live erotically. I would be fascinated to
check out the rest of the midpoint synastry between you two,
particularly contacts to the following midpoints( both charts, if
you have hers).
MO/VE: [devotion; pure tenderness and gentleness.Essence of the
Feminine]
SO/MA: [vigour; drive,strength; action. Essence of the masculine]
SO/MO: [The inner marriage of yin & yang. At-one-ment with the
self. Inner peace.]
SO/MC: [The perceived goal or objective of life. Awareness of
individuality. Father image.]
VE/VX: [The Venus/ Vertex midpoint has to do with compulsive,
powerful feelings of physical attraction]
VE/MC: ["The Romantic Ideal". Very strong physical attraction]
PL/VX: [A deeply transformative/destructive, compelling and
often painful encounter]
PL/NO: [ A karmic link. Possible power struggles & manipulation.
A fateful relationship.
NO/VX: [Inescapable associations. Fateful unions.]
I've found these midpoints to be triggered most often in serious
relationships of all kinds, but especially those with a
romantic/erotic content. Often both partners have the same
midpoint triggered by a different planet; a "double-whammy"
effect
I was surprised that the VE/PL midpoint didn't show up in my
studies, but maybe if I'd had a larger sample to study, it would
have. (?)
The midpoint that showed up most often was...wait for
it.....SO/MC (!). This surprised me at first, but then I thought
'wait a minute...this midpoint is the point of greatest awareness
of our goal and objective in life. If someone has an important
planet sitting on this midpoint in my chart, it's likely that
their energy could make an enormous difference to my life-goals'.
This list has never been published before, so far as I'm aware.
It is by no means exhaustive, and the interpretations are mostly
my own, with a little nudge here and there from COSI. It appears
here for the first time, ladeez and gentlemen.
Have fun!
Pete.
**Dream as if you'll live forever...
Live as if you'll die today...**
doovinator <do...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:488-381...@storefull-617.iap.bryant.webtv.net...
> Oh JEEZ!!
>
> The whole situation I was talking about on the other post
regarding the
> Scorpio--well her sun/moon was not only conjunct my 7th cusp
but also
> RIGHT ON my Venus/Mars midpoint!!
>
> What ELSE was there? She had a Yod between Jupiter/Uranus and
Mercury;
> my Gemini planets were right on the midpoint of the
Jupiter/Uranus
> sextile and "filled in" a yod for her with her sun/moon sextile
Mars in
> Capricorn. Her Mercury also "filled in"a grand sextile in my
chart--I
> have five points covered but not Sagittarius.
>
Tad Perry
>
>>>My own past doesn't come into
>>>play at all except for the skills I have accumulated and now hold in
>>>possession.
>
>>Here is where you err. And seeing it is important. The past is
>>*always* in play.
>
>No, Tad, it really isn't. Not in terms of making a strategy.
I'll try to help (honestly, that's how I view it) once more.
The lessons you are going to be drawing from when you formulate this
strategy are located in the past. If you overlook something important
(and how would you know it's importance if you had overlooked it?)
then there may be lessons back there that could have been applied but
weren't.
That would mean that the past comes into play not only in terms of the
skills you have accumulated, but in terms of those skills you
potentially could have accumulated but didn't. (Your stance assumes
you accumulated everything available when actually I'm sure you would concede
that that can't be true.)
In fact, the Tarot Card representing "The Fool" (walking blindly and
happily near the edge of a cliff that is in complete darkness where he
cannot see it) was drawn specifically to illustrate the point I am
trying to make here.
So please reconsider it as a sort of "Ancient Wisdom" rather than
"Tad's opinion".
I don't own it, and it's not opinion.
It's the way it works.
tvp
Tad Perry
>
>>>My own past doesn't come into
>>>play at all except for the skills I have accumulated and now hold in
>>>possession.
>
>>Here is where you err. And seeing it is important. The past is
>>*always* in play.
>
>supplied a client with everything available to support the client up
>to this point, and I need to know the client's mindset. Case closed.
>My past really doesn't enter into it. If the client is favorable or
>interested in my process, I would like to know this, and I will
>continue to make the time investment to gain the client for future
>support processes. If the client is unable to view my method as
>workable in his situation, then I would like to just close up shop and
>move on. It's a matter of wanting to know how amenable the client is.
>
>This doesn't have much to do with my past. It does have to do with
>conditions being favorable, or the client himself being favorable to a
>particular process of support.
>
>At first I was concerned that the Pluto situation (since so many
>people seem to think of it as unlucky or bad) indicated that this was
>just a bad time to offer a support method to a client. I was
>wondering if I should wait.
>
>situation is the idea that maybe the time is now right for me to
>discover a flaw in the process itself or in my methodology of creating
>the support process for the client. As I understand it, Pluto's
>influence is to discover what needs to be killed off in order to
>bring to llife a transformed, living replacement.
>
>myself and my past, but I have a job to do and a goal to reach and a
>client to win. And even though introspection does make up a part of
>my life, not this part. For this I need strategy, information, and
>decision.
>
>>>My own future as a global thing is not my target. I just
>>>want as much information as possible to achieve a specific goal that I
>>>want to achieve.
>
>>If you put the effort necessary into getting there, the chance of
>>getting there is maximized.
>
>Thank you, I know that. Having done all that I could do, I would like
>to know if the stars/planets have any influence on conditions
>themselves.
>
>>The planets are best viewed as the energies of the past OR the
>>opportunities of the future.
>
>>Pick one.
>
>I'm still looking to see if anybody can read them (or if they truly
>have inflluence) as determiners of conditions that exist in a person's
>environment. In othe words, if certain times under their influence
>are more auspicious for winning a client than other times.
Separately, as this does not concern our difference of opinion,
I can only say that you are wondering while I am absolutely certain.
Pick a time where the Moon makes a good aspect to Jupiter of the
person being sent. Then pick another where it makes a bad aspect to
Saturn.
Now send someone else out on the two sales missions and see what
happens. (A blind test.)
Moon square Saturn will tell you how everything went unbelievably
wrong. (Might not even make the meeting.)
Moon trine Jupiter will tell you how it went better than could have
been usually expected.
tvp
jer...@my-deja.com
>> > jer...@my-deja.com wrote:
>> > Ah, books! Where would us Virgos be without them? I just saw a
>> > reference to PLANETS IN TRANSITS on the web site that lets you make
>> > your own chart report. (It lets you connect to Astrodienst (sp?) and
>> > then come back and look up everything on your chart)
>Would love to know what site that was.... sounds way cool
>Cheers!
http://www.astrology-numerology.com/astrology.html
>==========
>Mmmm... I want to taste you and feel the heat come from your body...
No thank you. Nice to be asked, though.
>Guess what kind of mood I am in..?
I think I'd rather not. Virgo, here.
>I need to feel you in me......
Perhaps you would like something to read, instead . . . . .
jer...@my-deja.com
"Heather" <adb...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> ahemm yes you are scorpionic ( I never said you were a Scorpio)
> You were born with your Pisces moon opposite Pluto. Which
> means your emotions and daily activities are influenced
> by Pluto which governs the sign of Scorpio. You were also born
> with the Sun in Virgo conjunct Pluto, albeit with a 6 degree
separation
> but nonetheless a conjunction when it come to affecting
> the sun. again....scorpionic.
That certainly seems convoluted to me. I mean, what about my sun sign
being Virgo and the Ascendant being Sagittarius and the Moon in Pisces?
Wouldn't they be the most important aspects? It seems like if you can
find an angle to a planet in the natal chart, then link it to a sign,
and then say "Aha! I've proved that this is the sort of person you
are," that you can say anything about anybody and find some angle
somewhere that will relate to a sign and give you support for what you
say.
You know what you've taught me, Heather? That just like anything else,
astrology can be used to adopt a narrow view and pass judgement on other
people. The only thing I asked from start to finish is how influential
the stars/planets are in making a presentation to win a client over.
And that's still all I really care about. And you still haven't given
me an answer. And I still really want to know.
All the lecturing, all the speculation on what type of person I am, all
the comments about how I am doomed in my attempt, all the nonsense about
how Pluto is hunting me down---all of that came from you. It didn't
even come from the stars. Like Peter said in the other newsgroup, Pluto
also gives me a very good crap detector, and believe me, it is working
now. A person is more than one planet's reading in one aspect. I'm not
goign to let you stereotype me and then justify yourself by reeling of a
story of your suffering. It's all beside the point.
The stars, I am sure, are impartial. And Pluto, even if it's relentless
like Mark said, actually does good things. Pluto makes us face
ourselves. It will make me perfect the method that I use, and it will
make me work on myself to be more open and transparent with the people I
need to work with. I'm not going to run from that. Mark's right. If I
want to help this person and win this person, then I need to embrace
Pluto. It doesn't matter what judgment you pass on me or how you
criticize me or compare yourself to me. Like Peter said in the
unmoderated group, Pluto finds all of us.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
======================================= MODERATOR'S COMMENT:
Please take any personal conflicts offline.
JPeterOwen
> I said to myself this is one
>>negged out scorpionic person or a negative operating sun-pluto.
>>I then went to the top of the thread and found your DOB and yes
>>I was correct without even knowing your DOB to begin with.
jeriwho replied:
>No, I'm Virgo, with Sagittarius---something. Rising. No, Ascendent.
>No, First House. Wait. Virgo with Sagitarius in the Moon? Oh,
>that's not right. I'll check. [walks away to find charts]
>
>I'm Virgo: Sun in VIrgo; Moon in Pisces; Sagittarius Ascendant
>Sept 4, 1960
>2:53 PM, EST (DST)
>Philadelphia PA
She's talking about that nice big sun conjunction pluto in your natal chart.
Sun conj Pluto is associated with being assertive to the point of a danger of
extremism. It can also indicate a highly competitive person. However, that is
only half the reading. It also indicates a person who wants to see social
justice done, and who is very concerned about people being victimized. Some
people view these as a series of traits, but you can look at them as the same
trait seen from different viewpoints. A sun conj pluto person wants to stop
suffering and injustice and has the balls to make it so. You won't let things
stand in your way. The danger, of course, is that you can become too
aggressive and lose sight of the goal as you ram home the agenda. On the other
hand, the only sort of person who can accomplish such an agenda is the one who
will ram it through the opposition.
But a look at the natal chart also shows Pluto in the Eighth house, which means
you have a high crap detector and a low tolerance for crap. Just the sort of
person to brush aside self-congratulatory posts and insist that a question be
answered directly. It most likely does not matter to you how successful
Heather is in business or how saintly her father is. You want an answer for
*your* question. You have very little patience with anything that is beside
the point.
Heather wrote:
>A good example is me selling
>>more ads than anyone but upon seeing that the product
>>itself that someone else created was NOT improving
>>my clients bottom line..I quit. Yes...I am that caring and
>>that honest..
And she's humble, too. Just ask her.
jeriwho wrote:
>I
>have put six months into entirely free work for this person and have
>been glad to do it. My work is an avocation of teaching women to
>protect themselves from men who are harassing them. I am dealing with
>a woman who has been harassed, stalked, and publicly humiliated by a
>man. I have spent six months explaining to her the psychology of
>violence, control, and harassment, and I have succeeded in seeing her
>learn to keep her mind, emotions, and skills marshalled when he calls
>her up repeatedly or sends her harassing mail.
This is very much in sync with a Virgo who has Pluto Eighth House and Sun conj
Pluto. Service is important to you, and helping underdogs and those treated
unjustly is important to you. Being impatient with answers that you view as
beside the point is also typical.
So as you see, you freely choose responses, but the stars have their affect on
what makes you the person you are and how you respond.
In terms of the person you are trying to win over, I think you should follow
April's advice in getting down to basics (which is where I am), and read some
of the primary texts on astrological influences. But also take a good hard
look at the chart of the person you want to win over. Look for characteristics
that tell you how much that person will let another person enter into personal
matters, how receptive that person is to new ideas, how assertive that person
will be, how much of a team player that person is, etc.
Some people can quickly see a good idea and a capable person and accept them
instantly for what they are. Other people are at the other extreme, and even
if you have good ideas and a genuine concern, some people cannot let you in on
their private worlds. Take a look at the natal chart to see what you are
dealing with in terms of the inner person. A little help that's accepted does
more than a truckload of help that is refused.
Jon
PS to Heather:
Bad form to so obviously enjoy it that Pluto has somebody in his sites! Just
remember dear, Pluto gets everybody sooner or later, and he's not nearly as
impressed with us as we are impressed with ourselves. He has a habit of
tearing down the structures that he finds where ever they are hiding, even in
Director of Sales offices!
KAYFOLSON
erm...I hesitate to mention this, but my VE/MA midpoint (or one
of 'em, since there are eight), sits at 25 Gemini.
Does that count, do you think? ;-)
--
Pete.
**Dream as if you'll live forever... >>
Pete,
I may be dense but I dont get that. There are 8 VE/MA midpoints? I can think
of 2. In the way I think of midpoints anyhow.
kay
Pete Phoenix
--
Pete.
**Dream as if you'll live forever...
Live as if you'll die today...**
KAYFOLSON <kayf...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19991103004905...@ng-fx1.aol.com...
Hi Kay,
sorry, I should have said that there are 8 midpoint contacts to
each planetary pair. These are at 0 degs ( conjunction), the two
at 90 degs (square), 180 degs (opposition)' two at 45 degs
(semisquare) and the two at 135 degs ( sesquiquadrate...boy I
hate typing out that word! From now on, I'll just say 'octile'
and be done with it! LOL)
So that makes 8 points on the ecliptic that 'sit on' ( or =) any
given planetary-pair, or planet/angle pairing.
The first four points listed are called the 'direct' midpoints,
and the last four are called the 'indirect' midpoints.
Although in my experience, they all carry equal intensity.
Hope that makes more sense! :-))
Pete.
**Dream as if you'll live forever...
KAYFOLSON
>
> Pete,
> I may be dense but I dont get that. There are 8 VE/MA
midpoints? I can think
> of 2. In the way I think of midpoints anyhow.
> kay
> >>
<<
Hi Kay,
sorry, I should have said that there are 8 midpoint contacts to
each planetary pair. These are at 0 degs ( conjunction), the two
at 90 degs (square), 180 degs (opposition)' two at 45 degs
(semisquare) and the two at 135 degs ( sesquiquadrate...boy I
hate typing out that word! From now on, I'll just say 'octile'
and be done with it! LOL) >>
<<
and be done with it! LOL)
So that makes 8 points on the ecliptic that 'sit on' ( or =) any
given planetary-pair, or planet/angle pairing.
The first four points listed are called the 'direct' midpoints,
and the last four are called the 'indirect' midpoints.
Although in my experience, they all carry >>
<< my experience, they all carry equal intensity.
Hope that makes more sense! :-))
>>
Yes, now I get it.
I usually just get on with the direct midpoints.
Do you find that there are just too many when you use aspects to midpoint
points?
I use oppositiosns and conjunctions and thats about it. Maybe I am missing
out, and I will have a look and see.
thanks for getting back to me.
kay
Heather
you still don't get it Jon . I see nothing
wrong with declining helping someone "win" people
Jon. It's my choice. Someone asked me to
set up a chart for a caesarian. it was my choice
not to assist in playing God with a child's life.
She wanted her child to be" perfect.".. ridiculous.
That's not what astrology is for..to make "perfect"
children.
I have strong principles and most certainly will
not give them up. I was also asked to
counsel a couple that were intentionally falsifying
their tax records and hiding money from the IRS.
I declined to assist. Again my choice. There are
plenty of sub rate astrologers that will take a buck
and do what's asked.. no matter what.
I'm not one of them.
Heather
JPeterOwen wrote in message
<19991102095039...@ng-fc1.aol.com>...
>Heather wrote:
>> I said to myself this is one
>>>negged out scorpionic person or a negative operating sun-pluto.
>>>I then went to the top of the thread and found your DOB and yes
>>>I was correct without even knowing your DOB to begin with.
>
>jeriwho replied:
>>No, I'm Virgo, with Sagittarius---something. Rising. No, Ascendent.
>>No, First House. Wait. Virgo with Sagitarius in the Moon? Oh,
>>that's not right. I'll check. [walks away to find charts]
>>
>>I'm Virgo: Sun in VIrgo; Moon in Pisces; Sagittarius Ascendant
>>Sept 4, 1960
>>2:53 PM, EST (DST)
>>Philadelphia PA
>
>>A good example is me selling
>>>more ads than anyone but upon seeing that the product
>>>itself that someone else created was NOT improving
>>>my clients bottom line..I quit. Yes...I am that caring and
>>>that honest..
>
>And she's humble, too. Just ask her.
>
>jeriwho wrote:
>>I
>>have put six months into entirely free work for this person and have
>>been glad to do it. My work is an avocation of teaching women to
>>protect themselves from men who are harassing them. I am dealing with
>>a woman who has been harassed, stalked, and publicly humiliated by a
>>man. I have spent six months explaining to her the psychology of
>>violence, control, and harassment, and I have succeeded in seeing her
>>learn to keep her mind, emotions, and skills marshalled when he calls
>>her up repeatedly or sends her harassing mail.
>
Heather
Pluto.) if you don't want learn about your chart don't post your data.
the moon and the sun
and its aspects are crucial in the interpretation of the natal chart.
Pluto is scorpionic. Your sun and moon aspect Pluto. This
is not my opinion. This is fact. There is no need for hostility.
So you have a difficult moon and emotional nature. Well
most people do with a moon -Pluto opposition. Don't
worry you'll be fine.
Cheers!
Heather
jer...@my-deja.com wrote in message <7vmv35$118$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
>In article <0800247322001...@msn.com>,
> "Heather" <adb...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> ahemm yes you are scorpionic ( I never said you were a Scorpio)
>> You were born with your Pisces moon opposite Pluto. Which
>> means your emotions and daily activities are influenced
>> by Pluto which governs the sign of Scorpio. You were also born
>> with the Sun in Virgo conjunct Pluto, albeit with a 6 degree
>separation
>> but nonetheless a conjunction when it come to affecting
>> the sun. again....scorpionic.
>
Heather
JPeterOwen wrote in message
Just
>remember dear, Pluto gets everybody sooner or later, and he's not nearly as
>impressed with us as we are impressed with ourselves. He has a habit of
>tearing down the structures that he finds where ever they are hiding, even
in
>Director of Sales offices!
Sorry I missed your PS ...
I'm a Sun -Pluto conjunction ; sextile Neptune Jon. my moon
is in Taurus and does not oppose Pluto. However...I am quite
familiar with Pluto. Most astrologers are Jon...and certainly
this one. I am finishing up transiting Pluto squaring my
conjunction and semi-squaring my Saturn.
Would you still like to teach this astrologer
about Pluto? <g>
Take Care
Heather
jer...@deja-news.com
>>
>>I'm still looking to see if anybody can read them (or if they truly
>>have inflluence) as determiners of conditions that exist in a person's
>>environment. In othe words, if certain times under their influence
>>are more auspicious for winning a client than other times.
>Separately, as this does not concern our difference of opinion,
>I can only say that you are wondering while I am absolutely certain.
Thank you for clearly answering. So I gather from your reply that you
view the influence of the stars as primarily psychological and not as
direct influences upon environmental conditions. In other words, the
stars may work on us (or reflect us so we can work on ourselves), but
the stars are not going to influence the set of circumstances
themselves, apart from our perception of them.
I think that's what you're telling me. And thank you. That's all I
really wanted to know. I don't plan to carry out any double-blind
studies.. I just want to know how many astrologers view environment
as a factor under astrological influence and how many view the mind as
the sole (or almost entirely the sole) factor under astrological
influence.
jer...@deja-news.com
>In article <7vhnfb$2in$1...@nntp3.atl.mindspring.net> jer...@my-deja.com writes:
>>
>>>>My own past doesn't come into
>>>>play at all except for the skills I have accumulated and now hold in
>>>>possession.
>>
>>>Here is where you err. And seeing it is important. The past is
>>>*always* in play.
>>
>>No, Tad, it really isn't. Not in terms of making a strategy.
>I'll try to help (honestly, that's how I view it) once more.
>The lessons you are going to be drawing from when you formulate this
>strategy are located in the past. If you overlook something important
>(and how would you know it's importance if you had overlooked it?)
>then there may be lessons back there that could have been applied but
>weren't.
I'm going to gather from your reply that you view the influence of the
stars as primarily psychological and not as direct influences upon
environmental conditions.
Again, I think what you have to say has a lot of worth, but it is not
what I am asking about. I am asking about how much the stars/planets
will influence the conditions as the first phase of this education
process draws to a close. The six months of development of materials
and the step by step presentation of the calm, ordered, strategic
mindset is finished.
In the development of the materials I questioned myself, my past, my
analysis, and the military and martial classics I consulted very
heavily. And there certainly will come a point when I will re
evaluate the materials, how well they developed the ideas of a calm,
clear mindset, and how I presented them. But that's not what I'm
asking about right now. I'm asking about how much influence the stars
have on my prospective client's mindset and if the stars/planets
influence conditions enough so that timing the final lesson properly
will be imporetant.
So I'm going to gather from your answers, that you think, no, there
are no times that are more innately propitious than others. It's the
mindset alone that creates the propitious circumstances, and the stars
are a pointer/reflection/influence of the mindset. But not the
environment itself as a separate entity.
Pete Phoenix
>SNIP>
> Hi Kay,
> sorry, I should have said that there are 8 midpoint contacts to
> each planetary pair. These are at 0 degs ( conjunction), the
two
> at 90 degs (square), 180 degs (opposition)' two at 45 degs
> (semisquare) and the two at 135 degs ( sesquiquadrate...boy I
> hate typing out that word! From now on, I'll just say 'octile'
> and be done with it! LOL) >>
> So that makes 8 points on the ecliptic that 'sit on' ( or =)
any
> given planetary-pair, or planet/angle pairing.
> The first four points listed are called the 'direct' midpoints,
> and the last four are called the 'indirect' midpoints.
> Although in my experience, they all carry >>
>
> Hope that makes more sense! :-))
>
>
> Yes, now I get it.
> I usually just get on with the direct midpoints.
> Do you find that there are just too many when you use aspects
to midpoint
> points?
> I use oppositiosns and conjunctions and thats about it. Maybe I
am missing
> out, and I will have a look and see.
> thanks for getting back to me.
> kay
No problem. Try to find all of them. Your software will list them
under "midpoint trees".
I use an orb of no more than 1degree, maybe 1 and a half if the
Sun, Moon or angles are involved.
jer...@my-deja.com
"Heather" <adb...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Your chart is very accurate.Obviously.( moon opposite Pluto and Sun
conjunct
> Pluto.) if you don't want learn about your chart don't post your data.
Obviously my chart is the exact reflection of who I am. I posted my
stats so that people could tell me if Pluto would have an effect on
upcoming events. But, hey, thanks for the psycho analysis. Like I
said, everything you have posted so far has been quite revealing.
(Sometimes, Heather, actions speak louder than stars and planets.)
But your opinion of my chart is beside the point. I suppose that you
are never going to answer the question I asked about the nature of
astrology's influence on events . . . .
Hope sales are doing well.
> the moon and the sun
> and its aspects are crucial in the interpretation of the natal chart.
> Pluto is scorpionic. Your sun and moon aspect Pluto. This
> is not my opinion. This is fact. There is no need for hostility.
Ah, never mistake laughter at your expense for snarling. The Director
of Sales should know that. If not, I shall not charge you for
explaining it.
> So you have a difficult moon and emotional nature. Well
> most people do with a moon -Pluto opposition. Don't
> worry you'll be fine.
>
> Cheers!
How can a moon be difficult? It's in Pisces, and I love it. (Hey you!
Keep your hands off my moon!) Makes me creative, and intuitive, and
probably strengthens my crap-o-meter with that Pisces "psychic
component". My nature, according to my astrologer is analytical, quick,
insightful, and passionate about figuring things out. Becoming a
mathematician was strongly suggested, but I am still opting for super
hero. (How Virgo of me!) Earth is my strongest element: practical.
Hey, are you really an astrologer? You should be telling me this.
Please give my regards to your millionaire father. And yes, Heather, I
certainly can see you really *do* care. (Shame on me.)
jeri---VIRGO(Moon in Pisces; Sag Ascendant)---who
Come visit my web site for more of that Pisces influence on a Virgo
mind with Sagittarius riding through!:
http://www.pipeline.com/~jeriwho/index.html
Martial Arts,
Dr. Who
Health Tips
etc.,
etc.,
etc.,
JPeterOwen
I never said you didn't know about Pluto. I said that gleefully anticipating
that Pluto has somebody in its sites is just plain mean, and all the soap box
stuff doesn't amount to a hill of beans. It was still mean.
The kid wants to know the future so things will work out for her, and she's
doing a good deed for somebody else. Have the lights come on yet? She's just
like everybody else, with a social conscience. Talking about millionaire
fathers and job promotions won't matter in the least to a Virgo with Pluto in
Virgo. It's not even the way she defines success, Miss Astrologer. She sees
success as accomplishing some great service for somebody else. That's what
makes life meaningful to her.
Quit bragging to her, quit sulking, and give her a hand. I'm no astrologer and
I don't even rank as an amateur. I've read Goodman's Sun Signs and Van Toen's
The Mars book, and a lot of web sites, and that's it. She can check the natal
charts and try to understand how her "client"/friend thinks, and get into
harmony with that thinking.
As far as all the great, wonderful things you've done, so what? What matters
is the good thing you decide to do right now.
Be careful, Orion's foot is coming into conjunction with his mouth on your
chart.
Heather
mad you'd know it. No one is mean in here..you're over reacting.
How is stating a fact mean? Fact: the chart has a multi -year
Pluto transit about to hit. Yes Pluto does have the chart in it's
sight. It's a figure of speech and it is accurate. Please
check her date of birth.
Pluto is the most transformational
planet we have. If you hang around enough you will listen first
hand to some of the group members experiences. Everything
from life and death experiences, Successes and downfalls;
learning experiences and wake up calls. Most of us
have dealt with Pluto in our lives in one way shape or form.
I think it is doing someone more harm than good NOT telling
them they have a Pluto transit coming up and what that can mean.
lets say hypothetically a client had Pluto about
to oppose their mars. That mars was in the 8th house natally.
mars ruled the 7th.
You know full well that your client just met a guy off the internet
and he moved in with your client in 2 weeks time. One astrologer
says don't go into dark alleys.
another astrologer berates
the other astrologer for not telling it like it is and warn her of a
potential attack from the new relationship.
Later.. the aforementioned client has the guy that moved in with her take
an umbrella and beat her within an inch of
her life and poked her eye out with that umbrella. Which astrologer
would you have wanted?
By the way...this was no hypothetical story.
Astrologers shouldn't do consultations if they're going to candy
coat things. Pluto transits are not a walk in the park..
they aren't supposed to be. Why lie to people and imply
they are.
As far as giving someone a hand with Pluto... I see now
why you are not following. Perhaps you have not experienced
the magnitude of a transit to you chart from Pluto. When a client
of mine is going through a big Pluto hit to their chart I am in
crisis mode for them helping them through it. be it death, cancer,
a broken marriage or someone's life being turned upside down
I have been there for them. if you knew how to read a chart
you wouldn't have to take my word for it. You can see that
in my chart in 6 seconds or less.
I really think you have misunderstood my intentions but
thats the net. You can't hear a voice, see the sparkle in an
eye or the warmth of a smile. All you see are words.
Take care
Heather
JPeterOwen wrote in message
<19991103183729...@ng-fc1.aol.com>...
Mark Martin
> "Heather" <fempr...@nospammhotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I had to sit for awhile before writing this. I started reading Tad's post
<snip>
>
> Thank you for this excellent sermon. Now let me tell you this: I
> have put six months into entirely free work for this person and have
> been glad to do it. My work is an avocation of teaching women to
> protect themselves from men who are harassing them. I am dealing with
> a woman who has been harassed, stalked, and publicly humiliated by a
> man. I have spent six months explaining to her the psychology of
> violence, control, and harassment, and I have succeeded in seeing her
> learn to keep her mind, emotions, and skills marshalled when he calls
> her up repeatedly or sends her harassing mail.
>
> But I must win, yes *win* her trust and confidence so that she will
> allow me to go beyond explaining principles and begin to implement
> definite actions that will keep her protected and push back the person
> harassing her.
>
> I do not charge her anything. I do not plan to charge her anything.
> My professional work writing software manuals keeps me in big buckets
> of money. But yes, I must "win" her consent, her agreement, and her
> actions. She is my client (not my friend) because our relationship
> needs to be professional. Yet I am asking her to make a very personal
> commitment to me, to give me her confidences about matters that are
> personal to her. And I have to ask it dispassionately and
> professionally. But yes, I care about her very much and am very
> willing to make enormous sacrifices to help her.
>
> The next time you decide to correct a Scorpio who is actually a Virgo.
> who seems hell bent on making a sale but is actually trying to prevent
> violence and harassment from escalating, maybe you ought to *ask*
> before you preach.
<snip, again>
There's been something bothering me about this discussion from the beginning.
I think I understand something more about what's going on here now. Jeri, if
you're willing to listen to what I have to say, and you might not like it, I
might be able to clear up some of what this is all about. But if you're going
to insist on pursuing your present course of action and not accept some radical
changes of your thoughts, attitudes and direction, then you can skip the rest
of this message and go on as you were.
In your natal chart, looking at Venus, there are no major aspects between Venus
and other planets. You do have Venus inconjunct Moon, but I don't consider
inconjunct one of the major aspects, and Venus inconjunct Moon is much the same
as unaspected Venus. Venus is the planet of love, affection, social urges.
Unaspected Venus means that this aspect of your personality is disconnected,
not well integrated into the rest of your personality.
I've seen this once before. A woman who I was supposed to be very
astrologically compatible with had an unaspected Venus. I was the latest
addition to a long list of long-distant email friends, none of whom knew each
other, but she had no close personal friends of either sex. She tried to
overcompensate for this by being overly sociable with the people that she did
meet. I told her about the unaspected Venus. I hadn't heard from her in a
long time, so I asked her what was going on, and she said that she decided to
focus her relationships on people who lived within a 50 mile radius. And that
was the end of that.
Unaspected Venus can go two ways. Either you don't integrate or socialize well
with other people at all, or you overcompensate and try to have as many
relationships as possible in an attempt to gain some social skills. Or it can
go both ways at the same time, and you hold everyone at arms length, while
putting up a facade of being courteous and agreeable. You're wanting to help
this woman out, to be a friend of some sort, but you're making it so impersonal
and businesslike that there's no possibility for trust or intimacy. In your
responses on this newsgroup, you acknowledge advice given, but in such a way
that you leave the impression that you're not really taking the advice to
heart. With this unaspected Venus in the philosophical 9th house, you're doing
this (counseling this woman) more for the glory and recognition, for being
right, and doing what's right, than for any money. A very charitable
placement. You want to help her, but you don't want to be a friend with her;
you want to be her counselor or saviour. From the way you respond to every
message on this subject, sometimes more than once, I see that you are extremely
communicative, attempting to be sociable and relate to other astrologers about
your situation, and you're obviously overcompensating for a lacking of this
ability in yourself. And why are you making an "avocation of teaching women to
protect themselves from men who are harassing them"? If you're not getting
paid, it's not a business. It doesn't seem this is part of some organized
charitable organization. This seems like a rather extreme hobby. Is this
service you're providing another form of overcompensation? Have you done this
for other people, or is this the first time?
If you have to keep this woman emotionally at arms length in order to "make the
sale", then I don't see how you will ever gain her trust. I would suggest that
you discontinue this pursuit. Refer the woman to a professional who has the
training and background to work with people in her situation. I realize you
have substantial emotional investment in this, but I think she'll respect your
for your honesty and kindness. For yourself, keep your job publishing software
manuals, and try integrating your social skills in a less high-tension
environment. Find a club or two to join. Go bar hopping a few times (but
don't make a habit of it). Take some classes. Join a dating service. There's
lots of possibilities. But you don't have to be the center of attention, and
you don't have to go around "saving" people from themselves. It can be just as
good to find a stool off to the side, and let interesting people find you.
This is all the more I'm going to say on this subject.
Mark
jer...@my-deja.com
>jer...@my-deja.com wrote:
>There's been something bothering me about this discussion from the beginning.
>I think I understand something more about what's going on here now. Jeri, if
>you're willing to listen to what I have to say, and you might not like it, I
>might be able to clear up some of what this is all about. But if you're going
>to insist on pursuing your present course of action and not accept some radical
>changes of your thoughts, attitudes and direction, then you can skip the rest
>of this message and go on as you were.
Thank you, Mark. Yes, I'm willing to hear what you have to say.
>In your natal chart, looking at Venus, there are no major aspects between Venus
>and other planets. You do have Venus inconjunct Moon, but I don't consider
>inconjunct one of the major aspects, and Venus inconjunct Moon is much the same
>as unaspected Venus. Venus is the planet of love, affection, social urges.
>Unaspected Venus means that this aspect of your personality is disconnected,
>not well integrated into the rest of your personality.
<SNIP>
>Unaspected Venus can go two ways. Either you don't integrate or socialize well
>with other people at all, or you overcompensate and try to have as many
>relationships as possible in an attempt to gain some social skills. Or it can
>go both ways at the same time, and you hold everyone at arms length, while
>putting up a facade of being courteous and agreeable. You're wanting to help
>this woman out, to be a friend of some sort, but you're making it so impersonal
>and businesslike that there's no possibility for trust or intimacy. In your
>responses on this newsgroup, you acknowledge advice given, but in such a way
>that you leave the impression that you're not really taking the advice to
>heart.
Well, from my perspective, I'm looking for the advice I've asked for,
which is about astrological influences on the things around us as well
as ourselves. I'm not looking for advice on other things. I have
taken the advice to get Hand's book, and I have done natal charts on
the person I am working with. But the rest of the info seems
superfluous. It's not what I was asking.
> With this unaspected Venus in the philosophical 9th house, you're doing
>this (counseling this woman) more for the glory and recognition, for being
>right, and doing what's right, than for any money. A very charitable
>placement.
Recognition is a huge motivator for me. And one thing I realized about
Pluto was that he might help me see that inner motivation more and
*not* behave in terms of recognition. Even apart from the
recognition, I think I should help this person, and I think it is
right to help this person. The drive for recognition is a hindrance.
I don't want to be governed by my ego but by proper ethic. As I
understand Pluto, he gets rid of impure motives and helps us (while
hurting us) to kill them off so we can have better motives.
>You want to help her, but you don't want to be a friend with her;
>you want to be her counselor or saviour.
Well, I do want to be a friend with her. But this is not the time to
push that. So I try to be a friend *to* her. But I don't think it's
right, especially in a time like this in another person's life, to
expect anything in return (in terms of friendship) until the situation
is sorted out for her. And yes, I do want to be her counselor and
savior, and I'm trying *not* to want that. I want to stay focused on
being more of an educator (though a concerned educator) who can help
her find her own strengths and achieve the mindset that works best for
her.
>From the way you respond to every
>message on this subject, sometimes more than once, I see that you are extremely
>communicative, attempting to be sociable and relate to other astrologers about
>your situation, and you're obviously overcompensating for a lacking of this
>ability in yourself. And why are you making an "avocation of teaching women to
>protect themselves from men who are harassing them"? If you're not getting
>paid, it's not a business. It doesn't seem this is part of some organized
>charitable organization. This seems like a rather extreme hobby. Is this
>service you're providing another form of overcompensation? Have you done this
>for other people, or is this the first time?
No, I've done this for other people. The skills of coming to grips
with what frightens us or intimidates us are not often taught and are
not well taught. Struggle against aggression or control can be
brought down to a strategic solution if a person understands the
components of the situation and the mindset of others involved. As
for why I'm doing it . . . because I should. And because I can.
>If you have to keep this woman emotionally at arms length in order to "make the
>sale", then I don't see how you will ever gain her trust. I would suggest that
>you discontinue this pursuit.
I think you have read me very well, but this particular statement is
really not accurate. I have been very open and very vulnerable with
her. The situation itself will remain private, and you may not be
entirely accurate in your assessment of it, but you have certainly
read *me* very well.
As I have worked through this I have been hampered by two things: my
own desire for recognition and my own indecisiveness (that
indecisiveness must be on my chart somewhere) about what to say at
what point. Both of these I view as ego problems, and they get in the
way of anybody's true purpose. I can't talk about them in terms of
astrology because I don't understand enough about astrology to know
how to view it through that lens.
But in spite of ego, I do need to do this as much as I am invited to
do so. If I know how to do something and another person doesn't and
is suffering, then I ought to help that person. Because I can. And
because I should. But I know it hinges on that person inviting me to
do so. Well, that person did invite me to do so for the first phase.
And now the first phase is ending and was successful. I'd like to go
on to the second phase, but I must be invited.
>Refer the woman to a professional who has the
>training and background to work with people in her situation. I realize you
>have substantial emotional investment in this, but I think she'll respect your
>for your honesty and kindness.
Well, she does see professionals in terms of the legal and emotional
ramifications of this situation. What I do is break a situation down
into its other aspects: strategy and mindset. I look at what an
aggressor does and says and tell her the agressor's point of view,
motivation, and probable course of action (and weaknesses). Again,
not using astrology. Because I've predicted some of his actions
accurately and could communicate effectively with her, she invited me
to explain this method to her.
So far, what I have done for her has worked for her very well. As it
comes to a close, I plan to (in fact, already have) told her that
there are many options to choose from, and mine is only one. (But I
want her to pick mine), but in the end, the choice is hers, and I've
kept it no-pressure on her. Just high pressure on me to be as clear
as possible.
>For yourself, keep your job publishing software
>manuals, and try integrating your social skills in a less high-tension
>environment. Find a club or two to join. Go bar hopping a few times (but
>don't make a habit of it). Take some classes. Join a dating service. There's
>lots of possibilities. But you don't have to be the center of attention, and
>you don't have to go around "saving" people from themselves. It can be just as
>good to find a stool off to the side, and let interesting people find you.
Thank you. I really am not trying to save her from herself. She's a
terrific person, and it's not herself that's her problem. I''m trying
to educate her on what the mindset is of the person harassing her and
how to meet that mindset with a calm and ready mindset of her own that
will defeat it. Ultimately, the goal is to use this calm mindset
successfully and then for her to get on with her life. She doesn't
need to be saved form herself because there's nothing wrong with her.
I respect what you're trying to tell me, but I do believe in this
method of learning to assess a situation and develop a calm and clear
mindset. And it does work for people, and entire books have been
written about it, but it is not usually thought of as something that a
western woman would use. It's more thought of in military terms.
I'm not really interested in bar hopping, and I'm already a member of
some clubs, etc.,, etc., But this work is not a replacement for a
social life. It is my avocation. It's what I believe in, and it's
what I plan to continue to develop.
But thank you. I think you have shown me some true insight of myself
and reminded me of what can really deter me. And if there is a
planetary aspect that indicates both supreme self confidence and yet
supreme indecisiveness, I hope you will tel me what it is.
jer...@my-deja.com
First of all, Heather your posts have clearly shown me what is going to
happen to me if I let my voracious need for recognition control me.
More than anybody else, your example has motivated me to either
eliminate this drive in myself or---if that is impossible---to control
it rigidly. As I said, your posts have been *extremely* enlightening
and instructive (and yes, entertaining), even though they never
explicitly had anything to do with what I was asking. Good luck in all
your many successful sales. No doubt with the compassion and insight
you have, you will be president of the company one day, and I hope your
millionaire father lives to be 109.
And Jon, thank you for the advice on checking the charts. (And for the
more impartial assessment about Sun Conj Pluto in my own chart). But
there's no need to squabble, "kids" (PS to Jon, I am 39 (!)). I've
made up my mind on my course of action and feel very clear about it.
So, thank you. No matter what anybody's motives were, it was
enlightening, and I am much clearer on what to do.
warrr...@gmail.com
Todd Carnes
> I have this aspect it only seems to describe all the signs working thru me
don hindenach
warrr...@gmail.com wrote:
> I have this aspect it only seems to describe all the signs working thru me
>
However, I suggest you re-post with the intent of communicating a bit better as I have no idea what you are hoping to learn.
hint: aspects are what they are - 'good'and 'bad' are what you make of them.
--
-donh-
donh at audiosys dot com