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Nobody saw anybody toss shells in Oak Cliff
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donald willis
Mar 13, 2017, 2:28:52 PM3/13/17
to
Nobody Saw Anybody Toss Shells in Oak Cliff
1, Patrolman J.M. Poe: "[Domingo Benavides] told me [the suspect] was
running out across this lawn. He was unloading his pistol as he ran."
(v7p68)
2. Sgt. Gerald Hill: "A citizen had pointed out to [Poe] where the
suspect had reloaded his gun and dropped these [three spent jackets from
shells] in the grass...." (v8[[48-9)
3. Counsel: "When the officers came out there, did you tell them what you
had seen?"
Benavides: "No, sir. I left right after. I give the shells to the
officer. I turned around and went back, and we returned to work."
(v6p451)
In other words, Benavides did NOT tell Poe that he had seen the man
running and unloading his gun. And thus Poe could not have repeated the
story to Hill.
4. Poe and Hill both got away with this fabrication re a supposed
revolver at the scene because radio-log transcriber G.D. Henslee had
appended "Westbrook-Batchelor" instead of "Hill" to Hill's 1:40 radio
transmission: "Shells at the scene indicate the suspect is armed with an
automatic .38 rather than a pistol." (Sawyer Exh A p397)
5. Years later, Hill "explained" the "automatic" reference by saying that
there was a "cluster of shells" found at the scene ("With Malice", p260).
But the "cluster" explanation does not account for the reference to a
".38" in the transmission. As Dale Myers writes, "Thirty-eight automatic
cartridges are traditionally marked , "38 AUTO...." (p261) As Henslee
transcribes, "automatic .38". The most likely explanation for Hill's
"error", then, was that Benavides, Poe, and/or Hill saw "38 AUTO" on the
shells. Hill said, "Shells at the scene indicate", not "configuration of
shells at the scene indicates". True, the mere fact of "shells at the
scene" could indicate "automatic", but not "automatic .38"....
6. We return to Benavides. Why--as he testified--didn't he tell the
officers what he had seen? In fact, he testified that he DID see the
suspect throwing shells (v6p450). But he didn't say why he failed to
relate that information to the cops at the scene. Perhaps because....
7. Det. J. R. Leavevlle: "Officer Poe also told me someone had picked up
two empty .38 hulls from the street.... I also talked with another
employee of the lot, Domingo Benavides, who said he went to the scene of
the shooting and picked up the two empty hulls...." (CE 2002 pp217-218)
Leavelle, then, talked to both Poe and Benavides, but does not mention
that Benavides actually saw the gunman. In fact, in his 11/22/63
supplementary report, he writes, "Another witness who saw the officer
lying in the street, but did not see the suspect , was a Domingo
Benavides." (WM p449) Perhaps accounting for the difference between
Leavelle's same-day report and Poe's ("the suspect reloaded his gun as he
ran across the church lawn" [WM p487]}: Poe's acquiescence was needed to
make the thing work; Leavelle's wasn't. And perhaps DPD wanted a little
ambiguity in case Benavides didn't come around.
8. Fellow witness Ted Callaway has echoed Leavelle's words. He told
Myers that Benavides said to him, "Hell, no, I didn't see [the suspect].
When I heard that shooting, I fell down into the floorboard of my truck
and I stayed there.... I ain't gonna go down there and tell them my story
unless they give me something." (WM pp220-221)
9. Myers has witnesses Mary Wright and Barbara Davis calling the
dispatcher at the same time, 1:15 (WM p383). The dispatchers then cite
Wright's address, on the police radio, three times , at 1:19 (CE 1974:57).
However, it's about *1:21* before the Davis address, 400 E. 10th, is
broadcast (CE 1974:57). Apparently, the Davises called a little later
than did Wright. And Myers seems all too aware of a little problem here:
He scrupulously records the Wright-address broadcast times in his text
(pp104-105). but omits the belated mention of the Davis address.
10. The Davises may have called the cops only because fellow witness Mrs.
Markham told them to: "Mrs. Markham was standing across the street
hollering. She told us to call the police" (v6p458). Most of the other
witnesses, that is, heard at least three shots. The Davises heard only
two (Barbara: v3p343; Virginia: v6p456). They were lying in bed with
Barbara's children, and apparently the first shot or two caught them
dozing or actually woke them up. This would account for the apparent fact
that they were so slow to get going, to make the call. And that lost
minute or two would mean that they missed seeing the shooter. Hence,
Myers' selective documentation of the radio logs.
In her Commission testimony, Virginia Davis seems to be rather
transparently over-compensating for the lost minute or two reflected on
the police radio. In her slightly scatterbrained way, she tries to help
the police investigation (Homicide Capt. Fritz, we see, seemed desperately
to want witnesses to both Oswald and a revolver) by moving the time of
their telephone call back: About nine times (v6pp458, 460, 464), she
testifies that they called the cops *first*, then saw the gunman:
Counsel: "Did you call the police before or after you saw [the man] cut
across your yard?"
Davis: "Before." (v6p458)
But poor Virginia couldn't move back the time of the police-radio
broadcast.
11. Benavides seems not to have spoken or written a public word--no
interview, no statement, no affidavit--until his Commission testimony.
As noted above, Callaway suggests what it took, finally, to make Benavides
testify, "[The gunman] had just got back to the sidewalk when he threw the
first [shell]...." (v6p450) Myers: "If Benavides actually saw Tippit's
killer drop the shells, why did he wait nearly 20 minutes, before telling
police?" (WM p260) The same goes double for witness Sam Guinyard, who
NEVER, apparently, told the cops that he had supposedly seen the killer
tossing shells on Patton St. (v7p399).
Nobody pays attention to Guinyard. But nobody should pay any attention to
Benavides, Davis, or Davis either.
Note: Witness Ted Callaway is generally credited with being Patrolman
H.W. Summers' source for his 1:37 radio transmission ("I got an eyeball
witness") re a gunman with a ".32 dark finish automatic pistol" (CE
1974:74). Callaway's supposed mis-identification was "based on the way
[the gunman] handled the weapon" (WM p146). The dispatcher told Summers
to hold on to his 1:37 witness (CE 1974:75]. Myers has Callaway with
Summers as the latter calls the dispatcher at both 1:37 and 1:39 (pp146,
148).
Callaway returned, in fellow witness W.W. Scoggins' cab, to the Tippit
scene about 1:23 (WM p385). "'When I got out of the cab... I didn't
hesitate a bit, like a lot of guys would. I walked straight to this
plainclothes officer... and I said, 'Here's the officer's pistol.' He
said, 'Okay, thank you very much.' After that I walked right back to the
[used car] lot'." (WM p303)
This doesn't sound like the witness who would have been in Summers' car as
late as 1:39. That sounds more like Scoggins, who testified that he had
left "his cab setting down there and got in a car with [policemen] and
left the scene" (v3p337), after returning there with Callaway. FBI agent
Robert M. Barrett verifies that when he, Barrett, got to the scene, at
1:42, Scoggins' cab was still sitting there near 10th and Patton (WM
p288).
The only clue we have as to what Scoggins might have told Summers re the
weapon is his response to counsel's "How many shots did you hear?"
Scoggins: "Three or four..... They was fast." Counsel: "They were fast
shots?" Scoggins: "Yes, they were fast" (v3p325). This echoes Jack
Tatum's "I heard three real quick shots" (WM p71).
But neither Callaway nor Scoggins testified that he heard a police officer
report their information on the radio.
dcw
1, Patrolman J.M. Poe: "[Domingo Benavides] told me [the suspect] was
running out across this lawn. He was unloading his pistol as he ran."
(v7p68)
2. Sgt. Gerald Hill: "A citizen had pointed out to [Poe] where the
suspect had reloaded his gun and dropped these [three spent jackets from
shells] in the grass...." (v8[[48-9)
3. Counsel: "When the officers came out there, did you tell them what you
had seen?"
Benavides: "No, sir. I left right after. I give the shells to the
officer. I turned around and went back, and we returned to work."
(v6p451)
In other words, Benavides did NOT tell Poe that he had seen the man
running and unloading his gun. And thus Poe could not have repeated the
story to Hill.
4. Poe and Hill both got away with this fabrication re a supposed
revolver at the scene because radio-log transcriber G.D. Henslee had
appended "Westbrook-Batchelor" instead of "Hill" to Hill's 1:40 radio
transmission: "Shells at the scene indicate the suspect is armed with an
automatic .38 rather than a pistol." (Sawyer Exh A p397)
5. Years later, Hill "explained" the "automatic" reference by saying that
there was a "cluster of shells" found at the scene ("With Malice", p260).
But the "cluster" explanation does not account for the reference to a
".38" in the transmission. As Dale Myers writes, "Thirty-eight automatic
cartridges are traditionally marked , "38 AUTO...." (p261) As Henslee
transcribes, "automatic .38". The most likely explanation for Hill's
"error", then, was that Benavides, Poe, and/or Hill saw "38 AUTO" on the
shells. Hill said, "Shells at the scene indicate", not "configuration of
shells at the scene indicates". True, the mere fact of "shells at the
scene" could indicate "automatic", but not "automatic .38"....
6. We return to Benavides. Why--as he testified--didn't he tell the
officers what he had seen? In fact, he testified that he DID see the
suspect throwing shells (v6p450). But he didn't say why he failed to
relate that information to the cops at the scene. Perhaps because....
7. Det. J. R. Leavevlle: "Officer Poe also told me someone had picked up
two empty .38 hulls from the street.... I also talked with another
employee of the lot, Domingo Benavides, who said he went to the scene of
the shooting and picked up the two empty hulls...." (CE 2002 pp217-218)
Leavelle, then, talked to both Poe and Benavides, but does not mention
that Benavides actually saw the gunman. In fact, in his 11/22/63
supplementary report, he writes, "Another witness who saw the officer
lying in the street, but did not see the suspect , was a Domingo
Benavides." (WM p449) Perhaps accounting for the difference between
Leavelle's same-day report and Poe's ("the suspect reloaded his gun as he
ran across the church lawn" [WM p487]}: Poe's acquiescence was needed to
make the thing work; Leavelle's wasn't. And perhaps DPD wanted a little
ambiguity in case Benavides didn't come around.
8. Fellow witness Ted Callaway has echoed Leavelle's words. He told
Myers that Benavides said to him, "Hell, no, I didn't see [the suspect].
When I heard that shooting, I fell down into the floorboard of my truck
and I stayed there.... I ain't gonna go down there and tell them my story
unless they give me something." (WM pp220-221)
9. Myers has witnesses Mary Wright and Barbara Davis calling the
dispatcher at the same time, 1:15 (WM p383). The dispatchers then cite
Wright's address, on the police radio, three times , at 1:19 (CE 1974:57).
However, it's about *1:21* before the Davis address, 400 E. 10th, is
broadcast (CE 1974:57). Apparently, the Davises called a little later
than did Wright. And Myers seems all too aware of a little problem here:
He scrupulously records the Wright-address broadcast times in his text
(pp104-105). but omits the belated mention of the Davis address.
10. The Davises may have called the cops only because fellow witness Mrs.
Markham told them to: "Mrs. Markham was standing across the street
hollering. She told us to call the police" (v6p458). Most of the other
witnesses, that is, heard at least three shots. The Davises heard only
two (Barbara: v3p343; Virginia: v6p456). They were lying in bed with
Barbara's children, and apparently the first shot or two caught them
dozing or actually woke them up. This would account for the apparent fact
that they were so slow to get going, to make the call. And that lost
minute or two would mean that they missed seeing the shooter. Hence,
Myers' selective documentation of the radio logs.
In her Commission testimony, Virginia Davis seems to be rather
transparently over-compensating for the lost minute or two reflected on
the police radio. In her slightly scatterbrained way, she tries to help
the police investigation (Homicide Capt. Fritz, we see, seemed desperately
to want witnesses to both Oswald and a revolver) by moving the time of
their telephone call back: About nine times (v6pp458, 460, 464), she
testifies that they called the cops *first*, then saw the gunman:
Counsel: "Did you call the police before or after you saw [the man] cut
across your yard?"
Davis: "Before." (v6p458)
But poor Virginia couldn't move back the time of the police-radio
broadcast.
11. Benavides seems not to have spoken or written a public word--no
interview, no statement, no affidavit--until his Commission testimony.
As noted above, Callaway suggests what it took, finally, to make Benavides
testify, "[The gunman] had just got back to the sidewalk when he threw the
first [shell]...." (v6p450) Myers: "If Benavides actually saw Tippit's
killer drop the shells, why did he wait nearly 20 minutes, before telling
police?" (WM p260) The same goes double for witness Sam Guinyard, who
NEVER, apparently, told the cops that he had supposedly seen the killer
tossing shells on Patton St. (v7p399).
Nobody pays attention to Guinyard. But nobody should pay any attention to
Benavides, Davis, or Davis either.
Note: Witness Ted Callaway is generally credited with being Patrolman
H.W. Summers' source for his 1:37 radio transmission ("I got an eyeball
witness") re a gunman with a ".32 dark finish automatic pistol" (CE
1974:74). Callaway's supposed mis-identification was "based on the way
[the gunman] handled the weapon" (WM p146). The dispatcher told Summers
to hold on to his 1:37 witness (CE 1974:75]. Myers has Callaway with
Summers as the latter calls the dispatcher at both 1:37 and 1:39 (pp146,
148).
Callaway returned, in fellow witness W.W. Scoggins' cab, to the Tippit
scene about 1:23 (WM p385). "'When I got out of the cab... I didn't
hesitate a bit, like a lot of guys would. I walked straight to this
plainclothes officer... and I said, 'Here's the officer's pistol.' He
said, 'Okay, thank you very much.' After that I walked right back to the
[used car] lot'." (WM p303)
This doesn't sound like the witness who would have been in Summers' car as
late as 1:39. That sounds more like Scoggins, who testified that he had
left "his cab setting down there and got in a car with [policemen] and
left the scene" (v3p337), after returning there with Callaway. FBI agent
Robert M. Barrett verifies that when he, Barrett, got to the scene, at
1:42, Scoggins' cab was still sitting there near 10th and Patton (WM
p288).
The only clue we have as to what Scoggins might have told Summers re the
weapon is his response to counsel's "How many shots did you hear?"
Scoggins: "Three or four..... They was fast." Counsel: "They were fast
shots?" Scoggins: "Yes, they were fast" (v3p325). This echoes Jack
Tatum's "I heard three real quick shots" (WM p71).
But neither Callaway nor Scoggins testified that he heard a police officer
report their information on the radio.
dcw
donald willis
Mar 15, 2017, 9:39:48 PM3/15/17
to
passage in "With Malice" actually seem to put Callaway in the "automatic"
column:
Callaway's description of the action makes it sound more like an automatic
than a revolver--the shooter (not Oswald) was pushing up with his left
hand towards the bottom of the weapon. And if the person whom some
witnesses saw was the guy with Tippit's gun, he might have just been
checking to see if it was loaded....
>
> Callaway said this...
>
> Mr. BALL. And how was he holding the gun?
> Mr. CALLAWAY. We used to say in the Marine Corps in a raised pistol position.
> Mr. BALL. That would be with the muzzle pointed upward, and with the arm bent at the elbow, is that right?
>
> This would be no way to load an automatic.
Callaway begs to differ with you:
"He had a gun in his right hand, holding it in... in a raised pistol
position. His left hand was going toward the butt of the gun--like the
way you'd LOAD AN AUTOMATIC--butt end. He just took his left hand and
pushed it up--or put it up toward the butt, or handle of the gun. That's
the way you'd TAKE A CLIP and put it in there." (With Malice, pp78,80).
So, Bud, contrary to your "expertise" re loading an automatic, Callaway
actually proves to be a witness to an AUTOMATIC pistol. I'm glad you got
me looking at this paragraph again, in Myers--it pretty much settles the
issue! If the Davises saw someone unloading a revolver, then we've got
two different gunmen. But I think the radio logs discredit THEIR
testimony....
Oswald had already unloaded before Callaway saw him heading down Patton.
He saw SOMEONE heading down Patton, with an AUTOMATIC!
dcw
Anthony Marsh
Mar 16, 2017, 6:54:39 PM3/16/17
to
witnesses.
> dcw
>
Bud
Mar 17, 2017, 7:08:47 AM3/17/17
to
> dcw
donald willis
Mar 17, 2017, 8:10:28 PM3/17/17
to
weapon as an automatic. "Left hand going toward the butt of the gun" is
the way he put it. Certainly doesn't sound like a movement which could be
connected with a revolver....
dcw
mainframetech
Mar 17, 2017, 10:26:29 PM3/17/17
to
On Wednesday, March 15, 2017 at 9:39:48 PM UTC-4, donald willis wrote:
Chris
Bud
Mar 18, 2017, 1:56:18 PM3/18/17
to
> Callaway is famous for having ID'd the man's
> weapon as an automatic. "Left hand going toward the butt of the gun" is
> the way he put it. Certainly doesn't sound like a movement which could be
> connected with a revolver....
automatic.
> dcw
bigdog
Mar 18, 2017, 6:43:10 PM3/18/17
to
Anthony Marsh
Mar 18, 2017, 6:45:49 PM3/18/17
to
hand and put your left hand under the stock.
http://files.harrispublications.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/8/2015/05/sw66-gbg-range-682x383.1431110928.png
> dcw
>
donald willis
Mar 18, 2017, 8:09:44 PM3/18/17
to
With Malice, p80. Actually, it seems to have been Callaway's *only*
impression. At least I've never seen him say he had a second idea on the
subject.
dcw
Bud
Mar 18, 2017, 11:04:57 PM3/18/17
to
Mitch Todd
Mar 18, 2017, 11:05:06 PM3/18/17
to
Callaway occur, relative to the others he gave?
A quick search yields the following. In how many of
these does Callaway say the pistol was an automatic?
1963
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/callaway.htm
1964
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/callaway1.htm
1964
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTxfBdlAADY
1967
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6U2Va5Iy40M
1986
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UWdWMhqLSM
donald willis
Mar 19, 2017, 7:24:14 PM3/19/17
to
the Marines, and he thought that was how an automatic was loaded or
unloaded, not how one would HOLD the weapon....
> > dcw
> >
donald willis
Mar 19, 2017, 7:25:01 PM3/19/17
to
he's holding right hand & forearm up. I assume, then, that's that what
the term means. My own question would be, is that the first step in
loading or unloading a revolver? Seems like unloading in that position to
your left hand would be awkward--easier it seems to shake the shells into
the left palm more at belly level, easier to have your palm horizontal.
dcw
Mark OBLAZNEY
Mar 19, 2017, 9:02:14 PM3/19/17
to
mainframetech
Mar 19, 2017, 9:04:41 PM3/19/17
to
impressions left by his witnesses. They appear very straight and honest.
And their stories fit what I would expect from them. Too bad you're
locked in to the tired old WCR, you might learn something, even at your
age.
Chris
Anthony Marsh
Mar 19, 2017, 9:07:45 PM3/19/17
to
kook.
Don't forget the first rule:
Anthony Marsh
Mar 19, 2017, 9:07:56 PM3/19/17
to
automatic.
>> dcw
>
>
Anthony Marsh
Mar 19, 2017, 9:08:30 PM3/19/17
to
On 3/13/2017 2:28 PM, donald willis wrote:
> Nobody Saw Anybody Toss Shells in Oak Cliff
>
> 1, Patrolman J.M. Poe: "[Domingo Benavides] told me [the suspect] was
> running out across this lawn. He was unloading his pistol as he ran."
> (v7p68)
>
> 2. Sgt. Gerald Hill: "A citizen had pointed out to [Poe] where the
> suspect had reloaded his gun and dropped these [three spent jackets from
> shells] in the grass...." (v8[[48-9)
>
Usually words inside brackets indicate a comment made by the poster
> Nobody Saw Anybody Toss Shells in Oak Cliff
>
> 1, Patrolman J.M. Poe: "[Domingo Benavides] told me [the suspect] was
> running out across this lawn. He was unloading his pistol as he ran."
> (v7p68)
>
> 2. Sgt. Gerald Hill: "A citizen had pointed out to [Poe] where the
> suspect had reloaded his gun and dropped these [three spent jackets from
> shells] in the grass...." (v8[[48-9)
>
about the passage being quoted. So in this case what did YOU mean by:
[three spent jackets from shells]
When the empty cartridges are loaded with powder and a bullet they
become ROUNDS.
Mitch Todd
Mar 20, 2017, 8:55:38 PM3/20/17
to
the cylinder, letting it swing out, then pushing the extractor
rod in, which causes the extractor to push the spent cases
partially out of the cylinder. From there, you can pick them
out with your free hand or just point the barrel upwards to
let the cases fall out. The wildcard is that Oswald's
revolver was built for a lend lease contract for UK
service, and chambered for .38/200. That model was commonly
re-imported into the US after the war and modified to fire
.38 special (.38 sp being a common round in the US... .38/200,
not so much). FWIR, the .38/200 cartridge case has a slightly
larger diameter cartridge case and a slightly smaller bullet
than the .38 special, both of which cause a number of problems.
I wouldn't be surprised to find out that the difference
causes issues with extraction.
But, anyway, none of it quite answered my question. When did
the intervew in With Malice happen?
donald willis
Mar 20, 2017, 8:56:50 PM3/20/17
to
On Sunday, March 19, 2017 at 6:08:30 PM UTC-7, Anthony Marsh wrote:
> On 3/13/2017 2:28 PM, donald willis wrote:
> > Nobody Saw Anybody Toss Shells in Oak Cliff
> >
> > 1, Patrolman J.M. Poe: "[Domingo Benavides] told me [the suspect] was
> > running out across this lawn. He was unloading his pistol as he ran."
> > (v7p68)
> >
> > 2. Sgt. Gerald Hill: "A citizen had pointed out to [Poe] where the
> > suspect had reloaded his gun and dropped these [three spent jackets from
> > shells] in the grass...." (v8[[48-9)
> >
>
> Usually words inside brackets indicate a comment made by the poster
> about the passage being quoted. So in this case what did YOU mean by:
>
> [three spent jackets from shells]
>
>
> That makes no sense. The spent jackets are the same thing as the shells.
> When the empty cartridges are loaded with powder and a bullet they
> become ROUNDS.
Apologies. You're right. I think that was Hill's phrase, not mine,
> On 3/13/2017 2:28 PM, donald willis wrote:
> > Nobody Saw Anybody Toss Shells in Oak Cliff
> >
> > 1, Patrolman J.M. Poe: "[Domingo Benavides] told me [the suspect] was
> > running out across this lawn. He was unloading his pistol as he ran."
> > (v7p68)
> >
> > 2. Sgt. Gerald Hill: "A citizen had pointed out to [Poe] where the
> > suspect had reloaded his gun and dropped these [three spent jackets from
> > shells] in the grass...." (v8[[48-9)
> >
>
> Usually words inside brackets indicate a comment made by the poster
> about the passage being quoted. So in this case what did YOU mean by:
>
> [three spent jackets from shells]
>
>
> That makes no sense. The spent jackets are the same thing as the shells.
> When the empty cartridges are loaded with powder and a bullet they
> become ROUNDS.
maybe, but either way, yes, it's redundant....
dcw
donald willis
Mar 20, 2017, 8:57:33 PM3/20/17
to
curious that both initial takes on the weapon--on the police radio--were
"automatic". And three people had to lie to the Commission to discredit
those errant (?) guesses--Hill, Poe, and Benavides....
dcw
Anthony Marsh
Mar 21, 2017, 11:55:07 AM3/21/17
to
Gee, I wonder what that means? Does it mean that McAdams merely copied
and pasted it from a conspiracy kook?
Anthony Marsh
Mar 21, 2017, 11:55:58 AM3/21/17
to
shooters like to unload the empties into their other hand to A. be neat,
B. pick up after themselves, C. reuse the shells to reload their own ammo,
or D. avoid leaving behind evidence.
Some people don't care and just shake them out onto the ground.
> dcw
>
Anthony Marsh
Mar 21, 2017, 11:56:16 AM3/21/17
to
>
>>> dcw
>>>
>
>
Anthony Marsh
Mar 21, 2017, 7:58:43 PM3/21/17
to
> dcw
>
donald willis
Mar 21, 2017, 8:08:32 PM3/21/17
to
cylinder....
, letting it swing out, then pushing the extractor
> rod in, which causes the extractor to push the spent cases
> partially out of the cylinder. From there, you can pick them
> out with your free hand or just point the barrel upwards to
> let the cases fall out. The wildcard is that Oswald's
> revolver was built for a lend lease contract for UK
> service, and chambered for .38/200. That model was commonly
> re-imported into the US after the war and modified to fire
> .38 special (.38 sp being a common round in the US... .38/200,
> not so much). FWIR, the .38/200 cartridge case has a slightly
> larger diameter cartridge case and a slightly smaller bullet
> than the .38 special, both of which cause a number of problems.
> I wouldn't be surprised to find out that the difference
> causes issues with extraction.
>
> But, anyway, none of it quite answered my question. When did
> the intervew in With Malice happen?
only, and cites several sources. I myself haven't seen the source in
which the quote appears. Here are Myers'sources:
SS affidavit 12/3/63, FBI interview 2/26/64, WC testimony, CBS news story
6/27/67, Myers' own interview 12/8/86, and HSCA testimony 7/26/78. If the
quote was from his own interview, I don't believe the latter was ever
published....
dcw
donald willis
Mar 21, 2017, 8:08:52 PM3/21/17
to
Bud
Mar 21, 2017, 10:10:27 PM3/21/17
to
Anthony Marsh
Mar 22, 2017, 6:31:42 PM3/22/17
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Anthony Marsh
Mar 22, 2017, 11:00:08 PM3/22/17
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donald willis
Mar 22, 2017, 11:05:46 PM3/22/17
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info out there! Three wrongs don't make a right....
dcw
Mitch Todd
Mar 23, 2017, 10:26:20 PM3/23/17
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having any number of opportunities to do so.
> , letting it swing out, then pushing the extractor
>> rod in, which causes the extractor to push the spent cases
>> partially out of the cylinder. From there, you can pick them
>> out with your free hand or just point the barrel upwards to
>> let the cases fall out. The wildcard is that Oswald's
>> revolver was built for a lend lease contract for UK
>> service, and chambered for .38/200. That model was commonly
>> re-imported into the US after the war and modified to fire
>> .38 special (.38 sp being a common round in the US... .38/200,
>> not so much). FWIR, the .38/200 cartridge case has a slightly
>> larger diameter cartridge case and a slightly smaller bullet
>> than the .38 special, both of which cause a number of problems.
>> I wouldn't be surprised to find out that the difference
>> causes issues with extraction.
>>
>> But, anyway, none of it quite answered my question. When did
>> the intervew in With Malice happen?
>
> This section of several paragraphs, on Callaway, is given one footnote
> only, and cites several sources. I myself haven't seen the source in
> which the quote appears. Here are Myers'sources:
>
> SS affidavit 12/3/63, FBI interview 2/26/64, WC testimony, CBS news story
> 6/27/67, Myers' own interview 12/8/86, and HSCA testimony 7/26/78. If the
> quote was from his own interview, I don't believe the latter was ever
> published...
11/22/63 Dallas Sherriff's dept affidavit:
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/callaway.htm
The 12/3/63 SS affidavit is here:
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10490&relPageId=552
FBI report of the 2/26/64 interview is here:
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=62314&relPageId=136
Callaway's WC testimony:
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/callaway1.htm
sho run
A 1964 (I think '64) TV news interview:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTxfBdlAADY
This should be the '67 CBS interview:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6U2Va5Iy40M
and, finally, the testimony from the 1986 mock trial between
Spence and Bugliosi:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UWdWMhqLSM
I have yet to find the HSCA document, (it appears to
be HSCA document 180-10091-10128) but given what
I'm seeing, it looks like Callaway consistently
says nothing about an automatic until December 1986.
Anthony Marsh
Mar 24, 2017, 6:08:32 PM3/24/17
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you visit and look for it at AARC?
Maybe if you could figure out some key words that SHOULD be in it.
donald willis
Mar 24, 2017, 6:12:02 PM3/24/17
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On Thursday, March 23, 2017 at 7:26:20 PM UTC-7, Mitch Todd wrote:
> On 3/21/2017 7:08 PM, donald willis wrote:
> > On Monday, March 20, 2017 at 5:55:38 PM UTC-7, Mitch Todd wrote:
> >> On 3/19/2017 6:25 PM, donald willis wrote:
> >>> On Saturday, March 18, 2017 at 8:05:06 PM UTC-7, Mi cut ume, then, that's that what
> On 3/21/2017 7:08 PM, donald willis wrote:
> > On Monday, March 20, 2017 at 5:55:38 PM UTC-7, Mitch Todd wrote:
> >> On 3/19/2017 6:25 PM, donald willis wrote:
> >>> the term means. My own question would be, is that the first step in
> >>> loading or unloading a revolver? Seems like unloading in that position to
> >>> your left hand would be awkward--easier it seems to shake the shells into
> >>> the left palm more at belly level, easier to have your palm horizontal.
> >>
> >> The essential moves in unloading a revolver are unlatching
> >> the cylinder
> >
> > Callaway thought the gunman was reaching for the butt of the gun, not the
> > cylinder....
>
> So far, he never mentioned it until at least 1986, though
> having any number of opportunities to do so.
>
If, as you seem to be implying, Summers' source was not Callaway, who was
> >>> loading or unloading a revolver? Seems like unloading in that position to
> >>> your left hand would be awkward--easier it seems to shake the shells into
> >>> the left palm more at belly level, easier to have your palm horizontal.
> >>
> >> The essential moves in unloading a revolver are unlatching
> >> the cylinder
> >
> > Callaway thought the gunman was reaching for the butt of the gun, not the
> > cylinder....
>
> So far, he never mentioned it until at least 1986, though
> having any number of opportunities to do so.
>
it? There are several other Oak Cliff witnesses who had several
opportunities to come forward, but NEVER did. I've considered that
Scoggins might have been the source, but couldn't quite nail that down.
Then, we have to (or could) address the other apparently incorrect
assumption made by Summers' witness--the reference to a .32. I guess, at
a distance, one could make an educated, but incorrect guess re that....
DPD didn't seem to want ANY reference to "automatic", gun or hulls--was
there even one mention by any Oak Cliff witness, in testimony or other
forum?
PERIOD. Yet, there it is, on the police radio....
dcw
Mitch Todd
Mar 25, 2017, 9:14:45 PM3/25/17
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On 3/24/2017 5:12 PM, donald willis wrote:
> On Thursday, March 23, 2017 at 7:26:20 PM UTC-7, Mitch Todd wrote:
>> On 3/21/2017 7:08 PM, donald willis wrote:
>>> On Monday, March 20, 2017 at 5:55:38 PM UTC-7, Mitch Todd wrote:
>>>> On 3/19/2017 6:25 PM, donald willis wrote:
>>>>> On Saturday, March 18, 2017 at 8:05:06 PM UTC-7, Mi cut ume, then, that's that what
>>>>> the term means. My own question would be, is that the first step in
>>>>> loading or unloading a revolver? Seems like unloading in that position to
>>>>> your left hand would be awkward--easier it seems to shake the shells into
>>>>> the left palm more at belly level, easier to have your palm horizontal.
>>>>
>>>> The essential moves in unloading a revolver are unlatching
>>>> the cylinder
>>>
>>> Callaway thought the gunman was reaching for the butt of the gun, not the
>>> cylinder....
>>
>> So far, he never mentioned it until at least 1986, though
>> having any number of opportunities to do so.
>>
>
> If, as you seem to be implying, Summers' source was not Callaway, who was
> it? There are several other Oak Cliff witnesses who had several
> opportunities to come forward, but NEVER did. I've considered that
> Scoggins might have been the source, but couldn't quite nail that down.
> Then, we have to (or could) address the other apparently incorrect
> assumption made by Summers' witness--the reference to a .32. I guess, at
> a distance, one could make an educated, but incorrect guess re that....
This is the "dark finish .32 automatic" thing, right? If
> On Thursday, March 23, 2017 at 7:26:20 PM UTC-7, Mitch Todd wrote:
>> On 3/21/2017 7:08 PM, donald willis wrote:
>>> On Monday, March 20, 2017 at 5:55:38 PM UTC-7, Mitch Todd wrote:
>>>> On 3/19/2017 6:25 PM, donald willis wrote:
>>>>> On Saturday, March 18, 2017 at 8:05:06 PM UTC-7, Mi cut ume, then, that's that what
>>>>> the term means. My own question would be, is that the first step in
>>>>> loading or unloading a revolver? Seems like unloading in that position to
>>>>> your left hand would be awkward--easier it seems to shake the shells into
>>>>> the left palm more at belly level, easier to have your palm horizontal.
>>>>
>>>> The essential moves in unloading a revolver are unlatching
>>>> the cylinder
>>>
>>> Callaway thought the gunman was reaching for the butt of the gun, not the
>>> cylinder....
>>
>> So far, he never mentioned it until at least 1986, though
>> having any number of opportunities to do so.
>>
>
> If, as you seem to be implying, Summers' source was not Callaway, who was
> it? There are several other Oak Cliff witnesses who had several
> opportunities to come forward, but NEVER did. I've considered that
> Scoggins might have been the source, but couldn't quite nail that down.
> Then, we have to (or could) address the other apparently incorrect
> assumption made by Summers' witness--the reference to a .32. I guess, at
> a distance, one could make an educated, but incorrect guess re that....
Callaway were the source, how would he be able to determine
the caliber of the pistol from across the street? One way
or another, you're going to have a problem with the Summers
source.
> DPD didn't seem to want ANY reference to "automatic", gun or hulls--was
> there even one mention by any Oak Cliff witness, in testimony or other
> forum?
have seen the cases on the ground and assumed just from
their presence. Autos eject cases with each firing cycle,
while revolvers retain the cases until the cases are
manually removed. I doubt that many criminals who use
revolvers reload at the crime scene. In fact, I'll bet
very, very few do.
donald willis
Mar 26, 2017, 9:20:30 PM3/26/17
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No witness stepped up to say he was the source. It's an orphan
transmission.
>
>
> > DPD didn't seem to want ANY reference to "automatic", gun or hulls--was
> > there even one mention by any Oak Cliff witness, in testimony or other
> > forum?
>
> I wouldn't be surprised that the officers on scene would
> have seen the cases on the ground and assumed just from
> their presence.
Benavides picked up all the hulls in that area. No officers (supposedly)
saw the hulls on the ground. In an '80s interview with Dale Myers,
however, Sgt. Hill said that maybe he picked up some hulls, and maybe Poe
did, too, but that Benavides "didn't handle the shells"!
And he added that that's how he knew they were 38s, because he saw them so
stamped. But Myers noted, further, that the hulls would not only have
read "38", but also "auto" or "special". (With Malice p261) Hill radioed
re 38 automatic shells, so apparently that's what he saw....
Okay, yes, I wonder if cops, even back then, would play so fast & loose
with crime-scene evidence before it's photographed. (Of course, it's
apparent that Capt. Fritz did, in the depository, but then he's a
Captain....)
In sum: The two "automatic 38" and "automatic 32" transmissions have
never really been satisfactorily explained....
dcw
mainframetech
Mar 26, 2017, 9:23:19 PM3/26/17
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people may be after you and you have no compunctions about shooting them,
reloading is the one thing you can be sure they would do for futher
protection.
Chris
Mitch Todd
Mar 28, 2017, 12:10:24 PM3/28/17
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a guy IDing the type and caliber of a pistol someone's
holding as they run by on the opposite side of the street.
How accurate do you expect that to be?
>>> DPD didn't seem to want ANY reference to "automatic", gun or hulls--was
>>> there even one mention by any Oak Cliff witness, in testimony or other
>>> forum?
>>
>> I wouldn't be surprised that the officers on scene would
>> have seen the cases on the ground and assumed just from
>> their presence.
>
> Two problems immediately arise here. The original story was that witness
> Benavides picked up all the hulls in that area. No officers (supposedly)
> saw the hulls on the ground. In an '80s interview with Dale Myers,
> however, Sgt. Hill said that maybe he picked up some hulls, and maybe Poe
> did, too, but that Benavides "didn't handle the shells"!
on the two he found, picking them up with a stick and
putting them in an empty cigarette pack. A quick
dictionary check shows the verb "handle" to mean "feel
or manipulate with the hands." So he didn't *handle*
the shells but he did gather two of them, and Hill is
still right.
> And he added that that's how he knew they were 38s, because he saw them so
> stamped. But Myers noted, further, that the hulls would not only have
> read "38", but also "auto" or "special". (With Malice p261) Hill radioed
> re 38 automatic shells, so apparently that's what he saw....
the whole transmission is "The shells at the scene indicate
that the suspect is armed with an automatic 38, rather than
a pistol." That's interesting to me. I'm not a gun nut, but
I've known more than a few, and have been around and fired
an uncivilized assortment of firearms. I've never heard of
a pistol described as an "automatic .38" or "automatic .45"
or "automatic 9mm" or "automatic .380" or "automatic .32,"
etc, etc. It's always been caliber first. Often, caliber
only, or caliber + make/model. But never "automatic" first.
Same for cartridges. .38 special, .38 S&W, .38 Colt, .357
magnum, .380 ACP, .38 auto, .38 super, etc. So "automatic
.38" is a bit of pretty odd usage. And Hill follows up with
the qualification "rather than a pistol." Also pretty odd.
[By the way, I presume that "pistol" in this case was
intended to mean "revolver." You may disagree] Now, here's
the rub: The only specific cartridge I've known to be referred
to generically as a ".38" is a .38 special. I assume that
years of its use as the universal police service issue
cartridge has something to do with that. Anyway, let me
ramble on with one more thing: there have been a number of
auto pistols built to fire .38 special. Most famously,
there's a variant of the Colt M1911 that fires .38 SPL
rather than .45 ACP.
Now that I've bored you with all that, consider this
possibility:
Hill get to the crime scene, finds out that there are
shells strewn about on the ground, and sees at least
one with "38 SPL" around the primer. He's a cop, so
that's just a regular ol' .38 like every cop shoots,
to him. From the shells being on the ground, he
presumes that the shooter had an automatic (see what
I've already written about how revolvers handle spents
vs autos). So he radios in that the pistol was an
an "*automatic* .38" and has to add "rather than
a [revolver]."
> Okay, yes, I wonder if cops, even back then, would play so fast & loose
> with crime-scene evidence before it's photographed. (Of course, it's
> apparent that Capt. Fritz did, in the depository, but then he's a
> Captain....)
>
> In sum: The two "automatic 38" and "automatic 32" transmissions have
> never really been satisfactorily explained....
is important.
Anthony Marsh
Mar 29, 2017, 11:50:32 AM3/29/17
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donald willis
Mar 29, 2017, 11:51:16 AM3/29/17
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won't quite allow it. Both testified that the witness SAW the perp
tossing empty shells around--ergo, "revolver". Or should have been on the
police radio....
Of course, the testimony of Poe, Hill & Benavides might have been false,
coordinated simply to keep the word "automatic" out of the hearings.
(The fellow officer whom Hill suggested sent the "automatic" transmission
was not called to testify.) Then, your above scenario would work, but
there would still be the coordinated, false testimony or three witnesses.
That seems a long way to go just for one word, but hey, maybe DPD brass
was paranoid....
dcw
Anthony Marsh
Mar 29, 2017, 8:53:06 PM3/29/17
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> dcw
>
donald willis
Mar 30, 2017, 8:16:19 PM3/30/17
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made re shells and guns? Hill made a mistake re "38 AUTO" (well, he got
it half right, somehow, eh?), Summers' witness made a "mistake" re a "32
automatic" (all wrong, here, eh?), and Fritz made a "mistake" re picking
up the hulls at the other end). When do mistakes become a policy?
dcw
Mitch Todd
Apr 2, 2017, 8:14:18 PM4/2/17
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Kimo Sabe? How do you know exactly who said what to whom
and when, or how many witnesses' statements made up the
contents of the different radio transmissions?
donald willis
Apr 4, 2017, 9:36:58 PM4/4/17
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the discussion re the 1:40 transmission, beginning with the testimony of
the Unholy Three.....
dcw
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