How did Oswald change history?

[BOZ]

How does someone change history? Oswald made history. It doesn't make
sense "Changed history." If Oswald got into a time machine he could have
changed history.

[Anthony Marsh]

Like the novel 2984, just lie about past events.

[BOZ]

Eric Blair's 1984?

[bigdog]

On Sunday, June 2, 2019 at 1:13:40 PM UTC-4, BOZ wrote:

It would be more correct to say Oswald changed the course of history. We
will never know how the world would be different had JFK not been
assassinated but it can be a fun parlor game to speculate about. Most
likely he would have been re-elected. Would he have gotten us into the
Vietnam War as deeply as LBJ did? Would the civil rights movement have
evolved into the riots that we saw in the latter part of the decade. Would
MLK have been assassinated? Would RFK have run for President in 1968?
Would Nixon have been elected? We'll never know the answers to these and
many more questions. It's safe to say things would have been different.
Just how different is impossible to say.

[claviger]

That all started in Massachusetts with a phony Boston Tea Party
culprits dressed like Native Americans. Did the real Natives even
drink English tea?

President Andrew Jackson was very adept at starting wars with
the Southeastern Native American tribes leading to the criminal
Trail of Tears death march.

The Minnesota Sioux Uprising in 1862 was instigated by the US
Government under the Lincoln Administration. The Gold Rush in
the Dakotas was another US Government provocation.

The USS Maine explosion and Tonkin Gulf Incident were doubtful
as well. Some claim the First Gulf War was a setup and so was the
Second Gulf War.

[Anthony Marsh]

I have to make typos to slip things past McAdams Cockney filter.

[BOZ]

History is the study of past events.

[Anthony Marsh]

Stop being silly. JFK had already given the order to remove
all troops from Vietnam. Why do you keep trying to turn him into
what YOU are, a HAWK. He had the chance to start WWIII and declined.
If you're so tough, why don't YOU start WWWIII just for giggles?

[Anthony Marsh]

On Tuesday, June 4, 2019 at 8:26:25 PM UTC-4, claviger wrote:
> On Monday, June 3, 2019 at 2:20:15 PM UTC-5, Anthony Marsh wrote:
> > On Sunday, June 2, 2019 at 1:13:40 PM UTC-4, BOZ wrote:
> > > How does someone change history? Oswald made history. It doesn't make
> > > sense "Changed history." If Oswald got into a time machine he could have
> > > changed history.
> > Like the novel 2984, just lie about past events.
>
> That all started in Massachusetts with a phony Boston Tea Party

But it was fun. And the point was to fight against the illegal tariffs.
You like Trump puts on everything.
No taxatition without representation.

> culprits dressed like Native Americans. Did the real Natives even
> drink English tea?
>

I can't remember that far back but I think almost all the tea came from
India, not England.

> President Andrew Jackson was very adept at starting wars with
> the Southeastern Native American tribes leading to the criminal
> Trail of Tears death march.
>

I think one of my ancestors was in that tribe.

> The Minnesota Sioux Uprising in 1862 was instigated by the US
> Government under the Lincoln Administration. The Gold Rush in
> the Dakotas was another US Government provocation.
>
> The USS Maine explosion and Tonkin Gulf Incident were doubtful
> as well. Some claim the First Gulf War was a setup and so was the
> Second Gulf War.

As well? What does that mean? You think the Civil War was a hoax?
Are you getting all this from Alex Jones?

[Steve M. Galbraith]

No, JFK did not give orders to remove all troops from Vietnam. The plan -
and it was a plan and not an order - to withdraw MOST of the troops by
1965 was contingent on the government of South Vietnam being able to take
on the effort itself.

This has been discussed here numerous times. And you get it wrong every
time.

[Jerry Organ]

On Thursday, June 6, 2019 at 10:25:03 AM UTC-3, Anthony Marsh wrote:
> Stop being silly. JFK had already given the order to remove
> all troops from Vietnam. Why do you keep trying to turn him into
> what YOU are, a HAWK. He had the chance to start WWIII and declined.
> If you're so tough, why don't YOU start WWWIII just for giggles?

"given the order to remove all troops from Vietnam"? Really?

Kennedy had the military draw up all kinds of provisional plans. An
assessment of a nuclear exchange with the USSR that showed the Soviets
would have gotten through to American cities convinced Kennedy to tone
down the threat of a confrontation and to stop urging Americans to build
bomb shelters.

I don't see things going well between Kennedy and Brezhnev. Kennedy wasn't
like Johnson and Nixon who proved they could bring about detente.

[BOZ]

THE BOSTON TEA PARTY TEA CAME FROM CHINA.

[BOZ]

On Thursday, June 6, 2019 at 10:25:39 AM UTC-3, Anthony Marsh wrote:

Did you know that Paul Revere participated in the Boston Tea Party?

[19efppp]

JFK made a deal with Khrushchev to end the Cuban Missile Crisis. We would
have had detente 10 years earlier.

[Anthony Marsh]

Didn't you ever watch Doctor Who? He/She changes history all the time.
TARDIS.
Watch the Rosa episode.

[Anthony Marsh]

On 6/6/2019 8:18 PM, Jerry Organ wrote:
> On Thursday, June 6, 2019 at 10:25:03 AM UTC-3, Anthony Marsh wrote:
>> Stop being silly. JFK had already given the order to remove
>> all troops from Vietnam. Why do you keep trying to turn him into
>> what YOU are, a HAWK. He had the chance to start WWIII and declined.
>> If you're so tough, why don't YOU start WWWIII just for giggles?
>
> "given the order to remove all troops from Vietnam"? Really?
>
> Kennedy had the military draw up all kinds of provisional plans. An
> assessment of a nuclear exchange with the USSR that showed the Soviets
> would have gotten through to American cities convinced Kennedy to tone
> down the threat of a confrontation and to stop urging Americans to build
> bomb shelters.
>

Maybe you're not old enough to remember The Cuban Missile Crisis.
I lived through it!

> I don't see things going well between Kennedy and Brezhnev. Kennedy wasn't
> like Johnson and Nixon who proved they could bring about detente.
>

You seem to be ASSuMING who would be Premier in his second term.
How can you be sure? Events in the US could influence the Soviet Union.
Ever hear of the Polaris missile?

[Steve M. Galbraith]

On Thursday, June 6, 2019 at 8:19:01 PM UTC-4, Jerry Organ wrote:

It's useless. If you search the archives here you'll see that he's made
the same claim for years.

As to the "tone down the threat." I'm puzzled as to how you came to this
conclusion. From the very first days of his Administration JFK
fundamentally altered ("flexible response", "MAD" doctrine) Eisenhower's
policies ("massive retaliation") that relied on the first use of nuclear
weapons in the battlefield.

It was Ike who rattled the nuclear sword, not JFK.

[Jerry Organ]

On Saturday, June 8, 2019 at 2:18:48 PM UTC-3, 19efppp wrote:
> JFK made a deal with Khrushchev to end the Cuban Missile Crisis. We would
> have had detente 10 years earlier.

Is that the same Cuban Missile Crisis that had its seeds in Kennedy
allowing the Bay of Pigs to go forward? I guess with Jupiter missiles on
Russia's border, Khrushchev figured no one would mind the USSR similarly
helping out a small nation actually threatened by a world power.

After all, the US had some 25000 warheads against the USSR's 3000; the US
had so many because Kennedy had lied about the "missile gap" in the 1960
election; that justified him staring an ICBM arms race once he lied his
way to election. Kennedy was going to use the already-adequate but
ever-expanding lead in nuclear arms as leverage; the chance of
confrontation was such that there was an American craze in the building of
backyard bomb shelters.

[Steve M. Galbraith]

On Sunday, June 2, 2019 at 1:13:40 PM UTC-4, BOZ wrote:

Would the country have followed the same course, would US history been the
same, if Kennedy had lived? Civil rights? Foreign policy? Vietnam? The
social upheavals of the Sixties?

Certainly LBJ enacted far more reaching domestic policies - civil rights,
voting rights, housing act, poverty programs - then JFK had even imagined.
So in that sense history was different.

Did Oswald think by killing JFK he was essentially ending the covert war
on Cuba? That's basically what happened (whether he believed it would or
not). The assassination plots faded away, the entire "Operation
Mongoose"/covert war strategy petered out. JFK and, especially RFK, were
no longer there pushing for it. Joe Califano, a top aided to LBJ, said he
was ordered by LBJ to tell the Cuban exiles that their war on Cuba was
over. I can't see the Kennedys doing that.

So, yes, history changed in small and perhaps large ways.

[Anthony Marsh]

Well, obviously I am talking about that age old question "What if." But I
can take it a step further because science fiction often plays with that
idea. For instance the show Doctor Who had an episode where she had to go
back in time with the Tardis, not to change history, but to prevent a
future racist from changing history by keeping Rosa Parks off that bus
that day.

Stephen King dealt with the same thing in his movie about Donald Trump
called the Dead Zone. Instead of the hero assassinating the Presidential
candidate, the candidate is such a coward that he holds up a baby to
shield himself from the shots and his Mafia sidekick kills the assassin.
So instead of Trump starting a nuclear war to destroy all life on Earth,
he is so humiliated that he commits suicide and the world is saved.

[Anthony Marsh]

Are you REALLY that ignorant? An NSAM is an order.

The A stands for ACTION.
If it was only a wish it would be an NSWM.

[Anthony Marsh]

So only Republicans can be your hero and Democrats are always the
villains? Then what do you think Nixon did that was more important? And
you ignore Reagan? Why, he was too Liberal for you?

[19efppp]

Even if you have a point about blaming JFK for the Cuban Missile Crisis,
the fact is that he made a deal with the Soviets to end it. That is
detente. The assassination of JFK ended detente with the Soviet Union
until Nixon revived it.

[Anthony Marsh]

All true, but I guess you missed some subtle details.
There is a difference between quantity and quality.
Plus you may be counting only the ICBMs. The west also had nuclear
landmines in Europe and was ahead of Russia in new missiles such as the
Polaris. During the Cuban Missile Crisis Russia sent subs with nuclear
tipped torpedoes close to the US. Location, location, location.
The US is surrounded by seas. Russia is surrounded by land.
But the US also had very small nuclear missiles that could be delivered
by cannon. That's why Russia held onto its buffer countries that it had
won back from German. Very complex calculation.

[Anthony Marsh]

On 6/9/2019 3:36 AM, Steve M. Galbraith wrote:
> On Thursday, June 6, 2019 at 8:19:01 PM UTC-4, Jerry Organ wrote:
>> On Thursday, June 6, 2019 at 10:25:03 AM UTC-3, Anthony Marsh wrote:
>>> Stop being silly. JFK had already given the order to remove
>>> all troops from Vietnam. Why do you keep trying to turn him into
>>> what YOU are, a HAWK. He had the chance to start WWIII and declined.
>>> If you're so tough, why don't YOU start WWWIII just for giggles?
>>
>> "given the order to remove all troops from Vietnam"? Really?
>>
>> Kennedy had the military draw up all kinds of provisional plans. An
>> assessment of a nuclear exchange with the USSR that showed the Soviets
>> would have gotten through to American cities convinced Kennedy to tone
>> down the threat of a confrontation and to stop urging Americans to build
>> bomb shelters.
>>
>> I don't see things going well between Kennedy and Brezhnev. Kennedy wasn't
>> like Johnson and Nixon who proved they could bring about detente.
>
> It's useless. If you search the archives here you'll see that he's made
> the same claim for years.
>

The difference is that I back it up with files. You have nothing.

http://the-puzzle-palace.com/nsam263.jpg

http://the-puzzle-palace.com/SecDef1.htm

> As to the "tone down the threat." I'm puzzled as to how you came to this
> conclusion. From the very first days of his Administration JFK
> fundamentally altered ("flexible response", "MAD" doctrine) Eisenhower's
> policies ("massive retaliation") that relied on the first use of nuclear
> weapons in the battlefield.
>

How dare you accuse IKE of ordering a first strike.

[Jerry Organ]

"Flexible response" had three stages. Stage Two allowed the first-use
introduction of battlefield nukes. Stage Three was MAD.

Ike had no nuclear-level confrontation with Khrushchev, nor did he have to
raise the alert level to the equivalent of DEFCON 2. Eisenhower--like LBJ
and Nixon--saw the value of getting along with the other superpowers. Ike
was concerned with world peace and warned of the Military-Industrial
Complex.

[BOZ]

History is the study of the past. How can you change the past?

[Jerry Organ]

On Monday, June 10, 2019 at 1:03:20 AM UTC-3, 19efppp wrote:
> Even if you have a point about blaming JFK for the Cuban Missile Crisis,
> the fact is that he made a deal with the Soviets to end it. That is
> detente. The assassination of JFK ended detente with the Soviet Union
> until Nixon revived it.

Detente would have been Kennedy saying "We have missiles at the throat of
the USSR's largest cities and, with Cuba, the USSR now have the same. So
let's play nice and work towards a SALT treaty. I'll even slow down our
lead part in the nuclear arms race for a few months."

McNamara told Kennedy the missiles were not a tactical problem (Soviet
subs with similar missiles made regular patrols off the US, as did the US
towards Russia). It was a political problem in that Kennedy figured he
would lose the 1964 election if he did not force the removal of the
missiles. Some had thought Kennedy had shown weakness in Vienna and the
Missile Crisis was a chance to show he could be a hawk.

I don't know what your source is or if they portray it in the movies
differently, but on October 26 EXCOMM had to persuade Kennedy, who wanted
to invade Cuba (days earlier, 500 aircraft were send to Florida and made
ready for one-hour alert), to wait a little more. Strategic Air Command
was place on DEFCON 2. Later that day, Khrushchev offered to remove the
missiles in exchange for a pledge not to invade Cuba.

That was the easing point; there were complications before a final
agreement was reached. In US history books, Kennedy (popular at the time
and mythological in death) gets nearly all the credit for resolving the
crisis, similar to Ronald Reagan being credited for the collapse of the
Soviet Union, when internal changes in the USSR were more the reason.

[Jerry Organ]

On Monday, June 10, 2019 at 1:00:35 AM UTC-3, Anthony Marsh wrote:
> So only Republicans can be your hero and Democrats are always the
> villains? Then what do you think Nixon did that was more important? And
> you ignore Reagan? Why, he was too Liberal for you?

I think Kennedy was an entitled debutant who got elected too early. More
so than most Democrats, it would seem, I greatly admire Lyndon Johnson and
Jimmy Carter.

My problem with Reagan is that while things were fairly calm and Americans
reclaimed their military mojo, it was basically eight wasted years. No
work done on social issues, the rich got richer and so on. Almost like
what we have in the White House now. Trump, with a populist campaign to
restore America to earlier values, got into the White House by capturing
many of the same major swing states as did Reagan.

[Steve M. Galbraith]

Khrushchev wrote in his autobiography that he misjudged JFK, that after
Vienna in particular (JFK on NK: "He beat the hell out of me... He savaged
me") that he viewed JFK as "too intelligent and too weak" and could be
pushed around. Two months later NK started construction of the Berlin
Wall. NK behavior really was appalling at Vienna with his confrontational
approach.

It wasn't JFK that caused the tensions (although he contributed to it with
all of that Operation Mongoose recklessness); it was Khrushchev believing
that he could ratchet things up and take advantage of what he viewed as a
weak president.

And again: JFK drastically altered Ike's military doctrine from a massive
nuclear retaliation first to a flexible response where the US would use
conventional weapons first, limited nuclear weapons, then massive
retaliation. JFK really deserves credit for reducing US/Soviet nuclear
tensions and taking on the hardliners in the Pentagon.

[Anthony Marsh]

How does the assassination end the detente? What changed on both sides?
What do you think is the nest thing that Nixon did? The Pepsi deal?

[Anthony Marsh]

Something like that, but JFK had already authorized a second invasion of
Cuba to take place in December of 1963. AMWORLD

[19efppp]

JFK made a deal with the Soviet Union to end the crisis. That is detente.
Sorry you don't like the facts.

[19efppp]

I think it is useless to argue with your science.

[Anthony Marsh]

Sorry, I had meant to reply to your message earlier, but lost it. One
factor you forgot was the trick Reagan pulled on the Soviets. Read The
Cuckoo's Egg. The US knew about the Russians hacking into our defense
research network so we kept feeding them fantasy data about our STARWARS
project and they tried to compete with it and develop counter measures to
the point that they bankrupted their whole economy. Plus the rise of the
Russian Mafia made it almost impossible for the average citizen to buy
things in stores. Their econony collapsed. Did WE help the Russian Mafia?
Not allowed to say, but one Donald J. Trump was very helpful in our
efforts laundering their money. Now Trump is working for Putin and doing
the same trick in reverse by creating a War in Space program.

[BOZ]

Did you know that George Lucas' Star Wars project was influenced by The
Hidden Fortress, Star Trek, and The Wizard of Oz?

[Jerry Organ]

On Tuesday, June 11, 2019 at 5:25:36 PM UTC-3, Anthony Marsh wrote:

> Something like that, but JFK had already authorized a second invasion of
> Cuba to take place in December of 1963. AMWORLD

The Kennedys were obsessed with Castro. Johnson ended the assassination
plots and eased tensions in the region.

No Kennedys = No foreign affairs disasters one-after-the-other. With Ted,
you got Chappaquiddick. How much can one family get away with and still
have unquestioning supporters? (Case in point: Look what's happening in
the White House now.)

[Anthony Marsh]

Did you know that he came to Cambridge and showed us rushes of the film
as he was working on it?

[Anthony Marsh]

On 6/13/2019 10:31 PM, Jerry Organ wrote:
> On Tuesday, June 11, 2019 at 5:25:36 PM UTC-3, Anthony Marsh wrote:
>
>> Something like that, but JFK had already authorized a second invasion of
>> Cuba to take place in December of 1963. AMWORLD
>
> The Kennedys were obsessed with Castro. Johnson ended the assassination
> plots and eased tensions in the region.
>

Temporarily.

> No Kennedys = No foreign affairs disasters one-after-the-other. With Ted,
> you got Chappaquiddick. How much can one family get away with and still
> have unquestioning supporters? (Case in point: Look what's happening in
> the White House now.)
>

How can almost half the country support a Nazi?

[claviger]

Donald J Trump was born in New York giving him American citizenship. After
Military School he served in the US Navy as Lt Cmdr Thomas Farrell, but
his Russian code name is "Yuri". So after changing his name to Donald J.
Trump he is not a traitor at all, he is loyal to his his Russian heritage.

Yes the Russians finally did it. Brilliantly they maneuvered a Russian
spy into the White House. Problem now he won't take orders from his cousin
Vladimir Putin to do what the Democrats really want: to crash the US
Economy so they can take over like Maduro did in Venezuela. Russian
troops are on the way to Venezuela as we speak, but now there is a sibling
rivalry and Trump is having a blast making silly US Socialists crazy.
Putin definitely knows what a bunch of idiots the Democrats are, so he is
biding his time while cousin Yuri has fun messing with all the swamp rats
in DC. Now the problem is cousin Yuri had a taste of Free Enterprise and
gets high on competition! So these two brilliant Russian cousins are
playing games with each other, and it is all in the family!

[Anthony Marsh]

On 6/15/2019 11:26 PM, claviger wrote:
> On Wednesday, June 12, 2019 at 6:41:50 PM UTC-5, Anthony Marsh wrote:
>> On 6/11/2019 12:28 PM, Jerry Organ wrote:
>>
>> Sorry, I had meant to reply to your message earlier, but lost it. One
>> factor you forgot was the trick Reagan pulled on the Soviets. Read The
>> Cuckoo's Egg. The US knew about the Russians hacking into our defense
>> research network so we kept feeding them fantasy data about our STARWARS
>> project and they tried to compete with it and develop counter measures to
>> the point that they bankrupted their whole economy. Plus the rise of the
>> Russian Mafia made it almost impossible for the average citizen to buy
>> things in stores. Their econony collapsed. Did WE help the Russian Mafia?
>> Not allowed to say, but one Donald J. Trump was very helpful in our
>> efforts laundering their money. Now Trump is working for Putin and doing
>> the same trick in reverse by creating a War in Space program.
>
> Donald J Trump was born in New York giving him American citizenship. After

Or do you mean HATCHED from the test tube?

> Military School he served in the US Navy as Lt Cmdr Thomas Farrell, but

So now you've invented a new kook theory and claim that Trump used the
alias of Thomas Farrel? Where do you find all this crap?

> his Russian code name is "Yuri". So after changing his name to Donald J.

See, McAdms, you are allowing your minions to reveal SCI code names.

> Trump he is not a traitor at all, he is loyal to his his Russian heritage.
>

That theory is cute, but you can't prove it wwith DNA. You know, like
SCIENCE.

> Yes the Russians finally did it. Brilliantly they maneuvered a Russian
> spy into the White House. Problem now he won't take orders from his cousin
> Vladimir Putin to do what the Democrats really want: to crash the US
> Economy so they can take over like Maduro did in Venezuela. Russian

That is not his mission. His mission is to DIVIDE the US. And he's
already done it.
And Republicans are stealing from the poor to give to rich, who then
contribute to Republicans.

> troops are on the way to Venezuela as we speak, but now there is a sibling
> rivalry and Trump is having a blast making silly US Socialists crazy.
> Putin definitely knows what a bunch of idiots the Democrats are, so he is
> biding his time while cousin Yuri has fun messing with all the swamp rats
> in DC. Now the problem is cousin Yuri had a taste of Free Enterprise and
> gets high on competition! So these two brilliant Russian cousins are
> playing games with each other, and it is all in the family!
>
>

Maybe it's a Family Feud.

[Ace Kefford]

On Sunday, June 2, 2019 at 1:13:40 PM UTC-4, BOZ wrote:
> How does someone change history? Oswald made history. It doesn't make
> sense "Changed history." If Oswald got into a time machine he could have
> changed history.

By being set up as the patsy he allowed the military-industrial complex,
the mafia, texas oil men, the vietnamese secret police, and some jealous
husbands and boyfriends kill JFK.