Why the World is Better Off Without the Atheist USSR
Sound of Trumpet
Why the World is Better Off Without the USSR
Ilya Somin • February 15, 2011 3:58 am
There are some great historical events where it’s difficult to tell
whether their net effect was positive or not. Contra Brian Leiter, the
fall of the Soviet Union isn’t one of them.
The fall of the USSR led to the establishment of numerous successful
liberal democracies, including Poland, the the Czech Republic, the
Baltic States, and others. Some of these were established before the
USSR fully collapsed. But communist regimes in Eastern Europe would
not have fallen were not the USSR itself already close to collapse, as
it was in 1989–90.
Even the more authoritarian post-communist successor states are all
far freer than their communist predecessors were. For example, all of
them have vastly greater freedom of speech, freedom of religion,
protection for property rights, and freedom of internal and external
mobility (nearly all communist governments forbade emigration for most
of its citizens, and most also severely restricted internal movement).
I am no fan of the quasi-authoritarian government of ex-KGB colonel
Vladimir Putin, but it’s a lot less repressive than the USSR was by
any conceivable measure. For example, my relatives living in Russia
feel free to openly criticize the government and vote for opposition
parties. Even under Gorbachev, public criticism of the government was
severely circumscribed and opposition parties were banned until just
before the regime fell.
On the economic front, after a difficult transition in the mid-1990s,
there have been massive increases in incomes and standards of living.
For example, per capita GDP in Eastern Europe (including Russia and
Ukraine) rose from 33% of Western European levels in 1992 to 45% in
2008. Those countries that adopted free market policies most rapidly
and completely (e.g. — Estonia, Poland, and the Czech Republic) had
the highest growth rates and least painful transitions. These figures
greatly understate the true amount of economic progress because much
of the 1992 GDP consisted of military spending (at least 20% of Soviet
GDP at the time) and shoddy communist products many of which did not
meet any real consumer demand.
Finally, the fall of the USSR lifted the specter of global nuclear war
arising from a confrontation between the two superpowers. Although US-
Russian relations are sometimes tense today, there is no realistic
chance that the two nations will go to war.
What can Leiter stack against these massive improvements? The
following:
[W]hether the collapse of the Soviet Union should be considered a
good thing is a separate question. Certainly everyone (except the
despots) welcomes the end of totalitarian regimes, though some of the
former Soviet republics have remained thoroughly undemocratic, and
Russia itself has moved strongly back in that direction. Then, of
course, there was the enormous human cost to the collapse (increased
mortality, a decline in longevity, and massive economic and thus human
dislocation and suffering). Finally, certain other world-historic
crimes, such as the U.S. war of aggression against Iraq, are unlikely
to have occurred if the Soviet Union had remained intact.
I have covered the points about economic well-being and political
freedom above. The evidence of huge improvements in both is
overwhelming, even though some of the post-Soviet successor states are
far from admirable.
What about life expectancy? It is true that life expectancy in Russia
and Eastern Europe fell in the early 1990s. But as this German Max
Planck Institute study describes, life expectancy in those countries
began falling in the mid-1960s, with a brief acceleration in the early
1990s, that was soon reversed. One can’t blame the fall of the USSR
for a trend that long predated it. The same study also shows that life
expectancy in Eastern Europe (and to a lesser extent Russia) began to
rise again in the late 1990s, possibly because of increased economic
growth and improvements in standards of living. Moreover, most of the
fall in Russian life expectancy in the 1990s predated privatization of
the economy and was probably caused by rising alcoholism (due in large
part to falling vodka prices) rather than by economic shocks.
In this context, it’s important to remember that communist-era health
statistics and economic data are extremely unreliable and in many
cases falsified for propaganda purposes. For example, official East
German data absurdly claimed that East Germany had higher per capita
income than Italy by 1970 and had nearly equaled Britain. Thus, the
above data probably underestimate the extent of post-Soviet progress
because they likely overestimate life expectancy and living standards
in the Soviet era.
Finally, we have Leiter’s claim that the survival of the USSR might
have averted “world-historic crimes” such as the US invasion of Iraq.
Without getting into the rights and wrongs of the Iraq War, I think
it’s not at all obvious that it counts as a “world-historic crime.”
Although the war may not have been worth its cost from a US point of
view and was often badly conducted, the replacement of a mass-
murdering despot by a relatively democratic government is very likely
a net gain for Iraqis themselves. It’s also worth noting that the Cold
War era was far from free of bloody proxy wars, many of which had
worse outcomes than Iraq. Such conflicts would likely have continued
had the USSR survived.
Perhaps more to the point, the USSR had a tendency to commit “world-
historic crimes” of its own, such as the mass murder of millions of
its own people and — most recently — the 1979 invasion of Afghanistan,
which ended up killing over 1 million people. Had the USSR survived
the 1980s, it is very likely that such atrocities would have recurred.
Previously in Soviet history, periods of liberalization (e.g. the
mid-1920s and early 1960s) were followed by periods of heightened
repression at home and expansionism abroad (e.g. — the Stalin and
Brezhnev eras). Had Gorbachev’s reforms fizzled out or been reversed,
the same pattern would likely have recurred as more hardline communist
leaders returned to power and tried to suppress liberal tendencies.
We cannot know exactly how history would have unfolded if the USSR had
survived to the present day. But the overwhelming weight of evidence
suggests that the world is far better off without it.
UPDATE: I recognize that Leiter wasn’t suggesting that the fall of the
USSR was necessarily bad, merely that the issue is a close call. But
even the latter claim isn’t defensible.
Terry Cross
wrote:
> http://volokh.com/2011/02/15/assessing-the-fall-of-the-ussr/
>
> Why the World is Better Off Without the USSR
>
> Ilya Somin • February 15, 2011 3:58 am
>
Oh, but you know the USSR officials weren't TRUE Atheists. True
Atheists are sweet, kind, generous, and loving like all the people in
alt.atheism.
TCross
raven1
<sound_of...@gawab.com> wrote:
>Why the World is Better Off Without the USSR
I absolutely agree that the world is better off without the USSR, but
what, exactly, does this have to do with atheism?
Bill Snyder
They're both things that Strumpet doesn't like, of course.
--
Bill Snyder [This space unintentionally left blank]
raven1
I think you'd find that most atheists here are quite happy to see the
USSR gone. BTW, have you ever considered that the reason you receive
so many rude responses here might just be that you're an asshole?
Terry Cross
> On Wed, 16 Feb 2011 14:53:16 -0800 (PST), Terry Cross
>
> >On Feb 16, 2:40 pm, Sound of Trumpet <sound_of_trum...@gawab.com>
> >wrote:
> >>http://volokh.com/2011/02/15/assessing-the-fall-of-the-ussr/
>
> >> Why the World is Better Off Without the USSR
>
> >> Ilya Somin February 15, 2011 3:58 am
>
> >Oh, but you know the USSR officials weren't TRUE Atheists. True
> >Atheists are sweet, kind, generous, and loving like all the people in
> >alt.atheism.
>
> I think you'd find that most atheists here are quite happy to see the
> USSR gone.
Many of the atheists make excuses for the conduct of the Soviet Union,
and they are SO condemning of Hitler, McCarthy, and other strong anti-
Communists for condemning the USSR and suppressing Communist
incursions in their own countries. But it's easy to jump on the
winning side in retrospect, isn't it.
TCross
David Johnston
>
> Many of the atheists make excuses for the conduct of the Soviet Union,
And many Christians make excuses for the slaveholders of the
Confederacy. So what?
Mike Schilling
"Terry Cross" <tcro...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:2b249e9f-dec5-4387...@x3g2000yqj.googlegroups.com...
>
> Many of the atheists make excuses for the conduct of the Soviet Union,
> and they are SO condemning of Hitler, McCarthy, and other strong anti-
> Communists for condemning the USSR
Yes, that's what Hitler gets condemned for: being mean to the USSR.
Terry Cross
> On Wed, 16 Feb 2011 14:40:38 -0800 (PST), Sound of Trumpet
>
> >Why the World is Better Off Without the USSR
>
> I absolutely agree that the world is better off without the USSR, but
> what, exactly, does this have to do with atheism?
Yeah, right, the Politburo was Hindu, wasn't it? Or something like
that. Whatever, it was the official religion.
TCross
Bill Snyder
Well, it's not as if the Crossbot is capable of imagining any
other reason why people would be down on him. ("It didn't happen,
and anyway they had it coming.")
raven1
<tcro...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>On Feb 16, 5:03�pm, raven1 <quoththera...@nevermore.com> wrote:
>> On Wed, 16 Feb 2011 14:40:38 -0800 (PST), Sound of Trumpet
>>
>> <sound_of_trum...@gawab.com> wrote:
>> >Why the World is Better Off Without the USSR
>>
>> I absolutely agree that the world is better off without the USSR, but
>> what, exactly, does this have to do with atheism?
>
>
>Yeah, right, the Politburo was Hindu, wasn't it? Or something like
>that.
Again, the relevance to atheism in general might be?
> Whatever, it was the official religion.
Atheism isn't a religion.
Robert Carnegie
launder^Winvest their money in the West, and a copious supply of
inexpensive and pretty strong pornography from that part of the world,
as benefits to remember from the Soviet system's collapse.
raven1
<tcro...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>On Feb 16, 5:38�pm, raven1 <quoththera...@nevermore.com> wrote:
>> On Wed, 16 Feb 2011 14:53:16 -0800 (PST), Terry Cross
>>
>> <tcros...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> >On Feb 16, 2:40 pm, Sound of Trumpet <sound_of_trum...@gawab.com>
>> >wrote:
>> >>http://volokh.com/2011/02/15/assessing-the-fall-of-the-ussr/
>>
>> >> Why the World is Better Off Without the USSR
>>
>> >> Ilya Somin February 15, 2011 3:58 am
>>
>> >Oh, but you know the USSR officials weren't TRUE Atheists. �True
>> >Atheists are sweet, kind, generous, and loving like all the people in
>> >alt.atheism.
>>
>> I think you'd find that most atheists here are quite happy to see the
>> USSR gone.
>
>Many of the atheists make excuses for the conduct of the Soviet Union,
With the exception of Skeptic, who is batshit crazy, I can't think of
a single apologist for the Soviet Union here, atheist or otherwise.
Would you care to provide an example or two?
>and they are SO condemning of Hitler,
Imagine that.
>McCarthy, and other strong anti-
>Communists for condemning the USSR and suppressing Communist
>incursions in their own countries.
Sounds like more bullshit to me. Again, some examples please.
Michael A. Terrell
They do? Where do you live? Bubbaville?
--
You can't fix stupid. You can't even put a band-aid on it, because it's
Teflon coated.
thomas p.
news:mtOdnenWz_41AcPQ...@earthlink.com...
>
> David Johnston wrote:
>>
>> On Feb 16, 7:46 pm, Terry Cross <tcros...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> > Many of the atheists make excuses for the conduct of the Soviet Union,
>>
>> And many Christians make excuses for the slaveholders of the
>> Confederacy. So what?
>
>
> They do? Where do you live? Bubbaville?
At least up to the 60's in the US elementary and high school history texts
explained that the great majority of slaves were well treated and had a good
life. No doubt the textbooks have been cleaned up since then (one can hope
in any case), but it is hard to imagine that the attitude itself
disappeared. In any event it is clearly a lie that most or many atheists
make excuses for the Soviet Union; atheism would give them no reason to do
so.
Lawrence Watt-Evans
wrote:
>"Michael A. Terrell" <mike.t...@earthlink.net> skrev i meddelelsen
>news:mtOdnenWz_41AcPQ...@earthlink.com...
>>
>> David Johnston wrote:
>>>
>>> On Feb 16, 7:46 pm, Terry Cross <tcros...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> > Many of the atheists make excuses for the conduct of the Soviet Union,
>>>
>>> And many Christians make excuses for the slaveholders of the
>>> Confederacy. So what?
>>
>> They do? Where do you live? Bubbaville?
>
>At least up to the 60's in the US elementary and high school history texts
>explained that the great majority of slaves were well treated and had a good
>life.
Not all textbooks. I grew up in New England, and our textbooks did
not say anything of the sort, though they weren't particularly graphic
about slavery's horrors, either. They tended to talk more about how
nifty the Underground Railroad was than about conditions in the South.
I understand there were different editions sold south of the
Mason-Dixon Line.
> No doubt the textbooks have been cleaned up since then (one can hope
>in any case), but it is hard to imagine that the attitude itself
>disappeared. In any event it is clearly a lie that most or many atheists
>make excuses for the Soviet Union; atheism would give them no reason to do
>so.
There are still a few Communists making excuses for the Soviet Union,
but Communists are a tiny, tiny fraction of atheists. Blaming all
atheists for Soviet atrocities is rather like blaming all Christians
for Jonestown, or for the Mountain Meadows massacre.
--
My webpage is at http://www.watt-evans.com
I'm serializing a novel at http://www.ethshar.com/TheFinalCalling01.html
thomas p.
news:kssvl6550nf1a9vdq...@reader80.eternal-september.org...
> On Sat, 19 Feb 2011 13:14:22 +0100, "thomas p." <gud...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
>>"Michael A. Terrell" <mike.t...@earthlink.net> skrev i meddelelsen
>>news:mtOdnenWz_41AcPQ...@earthlink.com...
>>>
>>> David Johnston wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On Feb 16, 7:46 pm, Terry Cross <tcros...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > Many of the atheists make excuses for the conduct of the Soviet
>>>> > Union,
>>>>
>>>> And many Christians make excuses for the slaveholders of the
>>>> Confederacy. So what?
>>>
>>> They do? Where do you live? Bubbaville?
>>
>>At least up to the 60's in the US elementary and high school history texts
>>explained that the great majority of slaves were well treated and had a
>>good
>>life.
>
> Not all textbooks.
Of course not, but it was a common enough idea and not just in the South.
It was no doubt rare that any teacher openly defended the institution
itself, but segregation was either completely ignored or seen as necessary.
I grew up in New England, and our textbooks did
> not say anything of the sort, though they weren't particularly graphic
> about slavery's horrors, either. They tended to talk more about how
> nifty the Underground Railroad was than about conditions in the South.
>
> I understand there were different editions sold south of the
> Mason-Dixon Line.
The South was a little more open about its racist attitudes
>
>> No doubt the textbooks have been cleaned up since then (one can hope
>>in any case), but it is hard to imagine that the attitude itself
>>disappeared. In any event it is clearly a lie that most or many atheists
>>make excuses for the Soviet Union; atheism would give them no reason to
>>do
>>so.
>
> There are still a few Communists making excuses for the Soviet Union,
> but Communists are a tiny, tiny fraction of atheists. Blaming all
> atheists for Soviet atrocities is rather like blaming all Christians
> for Jonestown, or for the Mountain Meadows massacre.
No, it would be like blaming all people who smoked pipes for the gulag
system, i.e. there is no rational connection to be made unlike the Christian
examples you mentioned.
Terry Cross
> "Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terr...@earthlink.net> skrev i meddelelsennews:mtOdnenWz_41AcPQ...@earthlink.com...
>
>
>
> > David Johnston wrote:
>
> >> On Feb 16, 7:46 pm, Terry Cross <tcros...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> > Many of the atheists make excuses for the conduct of the Soviet Union,
>
> >> And many Christians make excuses for the slaveholders of the
> >> Confederacy. So what?
>
> > They do? Where do you live? Bubbaville?
>
> At least up to the 60's in the US elementary and high school history texts
> explained that the great majority of slaves were well treated and had a good
> life. No doubt the textbooks have been cleaned up since then (one can hope
> in any case), but it is hard to imagine that the attitude itself
> disappeared.
Right. Nothing changes in 50 years, including all the Atheist excuses
for brutality of the Soviet Union, and how the Communist agents in
this country were just idealists. Nothing changes.
> In any event it is clearly a lie that most or many atheists
> make excuses for the Soviet Union;
McCarthy has a bad name for naming popular Communists on American
soil. How evil he was to point up Stalin's agents! And your real
colors are shown by the fact that you still revile McCarthy. You
cannot have it both ways.
> atheism would give them no reason to do
> so.
Oh, good grief. You use your own integrity as a given to argue for
your own integrity? This is ridiculous.
TCross
Terry Cross
> "Lawrence Watt-Evans" <l...@sff.net> skrev i meddelelsennews:kssvl6550nf1a9vdq...@reader80.eternal-september.org...
>
>
>
> > On Sat, 19 Feb 2011 13:14:22 +0100, "thomas p." <gudl...@yahoo.com>
> > wrote:
>
> >>"Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terr...@earthlink.net> skrev i meddelelsen
> >>news:mtOdnenWz_41AcPQ...@earthlink.com...
>
> >>> David Johnston wrote:
>
> >>>> On Feb 16, 7:46 pm, Terry Cross <tcros...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>>> > Many of the atheists make excuses for the conduct of the Soviet
> >>>> > Union,
>
> >>>> And many Christians make excuses for the slaveholders of the
> >>>> Confederacy. So what?
>
> >>> They do? Where do you live? Bubbaville?
>
> >>At least up to the 60's in the US elementary and high school history texts
> >>explained that the great majority of slaves were well treated and had a
> >>good life.
>
> > Not all textbooks.
>
> Of course not, but it was a common enough idea and not just in the South.
> It was no doubt rare that any teacher openly defended the institution
> itself, but segregation was either completely ignored or seen as necessary.
Are draft animals "well treated"? Smart farmers treated their draft
animals well. True, they did not give them linen bedding, that is not
the heart of the complaint.
When Grant went through Virginia, he burned the slave shanties in the
middle of winter and forced the "freed slaves" to flee to Richmond
with no housing, no food, and no protection. You don't know Virginia
in the winter. Those people were never treated so cruelly by their
owners, and many died in "freedom" who had thrived in slavery.
TCross
raven1
<tcro...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>On Feb 19, 4:14 am, "thomas p." <gudl...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> "Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terr...@earthlink.net> skrev i meddelelsennews:mtOdnenWz_41AcPQ...@earthlink.com...
>>
>>
>>
>> > David Johnston wrote:
>>
>> >> On Feb 16, 7:46 pm, Terry Cross <tcros...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >> > Many of the atheists make excuses for the conduct of the Soviet Union,
>>
>> >> And many Christians make excuses for the slaveholders of the
>> >> Confederacy. So what?
>>
>> > They do? Where do you live? Bubbaville?
>>
>> At least up to the 60's in the US elementary and high school history texts
>> explained that the great majority of slaves were well treated and had a good
>> life. No doubt the textbooks have been cleaned up since then (one can hope
>> in any case), but it is hard to imagine that the attitude itself
>> disappeared.
>
>
>Right. Nothing changes in 50 years, including all the Atheist excuses
>for brutality of the Soviet Union,
Again, with the exception of Skeptic, who is a kook from "Full Canvas
Jacket" territory, I don't see any apologists for the Soviets here,
atheist or otherwise. Citations or retraction, please.
Terry Cross
wrote:
> "Terry Cross" <tcros...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
"Being mean to the USSR and its agents" is the crime poor McCarthy
committed.
TCross
Mitchell Holman
> On Feb 20, 6:47 am, "thomas p." <gudl...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> "Lawrence Watt-Evans" <l...@sff.net> skrev i
>> meddelelsennews:kssvl6550nf1
> a9vdqr7cube...@reader80.eternal-september.org...
The Underground Railroad only ran in one direction.
Terry Cross
> On Wed, 16 Feb 2011 18:46:56 -0800 (PST), Terry Cross
>
>
>
> >On Feb 16, 5:38 pm, raven1 <quoththera...@nevermore.com> wrote:
> >> On Wed, 16 Feb 2011 14:53:16 -0800 (PST), Terry Cross
>
> >> <tcros...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >> >On Feb 16, 2:40 pm, Sound of Trumpet <sound_of_trum...@gawab.com>
> >> >wrote:
> >> >>http://volokh.com/2011/02/15/assessing-the-fall-of-the-ussr/
>
> >> >> Why the World is Better Off Without the USSR
>
> >> >> Ilya Somin February 15, 2011 3:58 am
>
> >> >Oh, but you know the USSR officials weren't TRUE Atheists. True
> >> >Atheists are sweet, kind, generous, and loving like all the people in
> >> >alt.atheism.
>
> >> I think you'd find that most atheists here are quite happy to see the
> >> USSR gone.
>
> >Many of the atheists make excuses for the conduct of the Soviet Union,
>
The truth is not news. The confession is a shocker.
TCross
Terry Cross
>
> >Why the World is Better Off Without the USSR
>
> I absolutely agree that the world is better off without the USSR, but
> what, exactly, does this have to do with atheism?
Oh, of course -- the USSR was No True Atheist country.
TCross
raven1
You can't help being stupid and nasty. You can, however, refrain from
being dishonest as well. Now how about citing a single apologist for
the Soviets here?
raven1
There's also the matter of his making wild, unfounded accusations
against innocent people.
Lawrence Watt-Evans
<nom...@comcast.net> wrote:
>Terry Cross <tcro...@hotmail.com> wrote in
>news:fe2f39e2-ae85-4f5b...@q40g2000prh.googlegroups.com:
>
>> On Feb 20, 6:47 am, "thomas p." <gudl...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> "Lawrence Watt-Evans" <l...@sff.net> skrev i
>>> meddelelsennews:kssvl6550nf1
>> a9vdqr7cube...@reader80.eternal-september.org...
>>>
>>
>> Are draft animals "well treated"? Smart farmers treated their draft
>> animals well.
Thus demonstrating that many Southerners were bloody stupid.
>>True, they did not give them linen bedding, that is not
>> the heart of the complaint.
>>
>> When Grant went through Virginia, he burned the slave shanties in the
>> middle of winter and forced the "freed slaves" to flee to Richmond
>> with no housing, no food, and no protection.
War is hell, boyo.
>> You don't know Virginia
>> in the winter.
Where do you think I live, idiot?
>> Those people were never treated so cruelly by their
>> owners, and many died in "freedom" who had thrived in slavery.
Amazing. Someone who really IS defending slavery.
If you claim they were "never treated so cruelly by their owners," you
don't know much about what American slavery was like.
> The Underground Railroad only ran in one direction.
Well, it always eventually went north, but there were many routes, and
some involved going east to the coast and being smuggled to Canada by
ship, while others went west into the territories before turning
north.
Mitchell Holman
news:27s2m697s5irv55ps...@reader80.eternal-september.org:
By direction I mean out of the Confederacy and
into free states. No free blacks wanted to "escape"
to the South.
Howard Brazee
wrote:
>>> Are draft animals "well treated"? Smart farmers treated their draft
>>> animals well.
>
>Thus demonstrating that many Southerners were bloody stupid.
Treating draft animals well is similar to treating men on a chain gang
well, with enough food and rest to work very hard, and being careful
with the beatings to not interfere too much with their work.
Still, I suspect fewer draft animals were raped than slaves (or
prisoners).
--
"In no part of the constitution is more wisdom to be found,
than in the clause which confides the question of war or peace
to the legislature, and not to the executive department."
- James Madison
Howard Brazee
<quotht...@nevermore.com> wrote:
>>The truth is not news. The confession is a shocker.
>
>You can't help being stupid and nasty. You can, however, refrain from
>being dishonest as well. Now how about citing a single apologist for
>the Soviets here?
You misunderstand. Terry Cross isn't about beliefs, he is about
something sicker than that - he's all about trolling.
Andre Lieven
wrote:
> David Johnston wrote:
>
> > On Feb 16, 7:46 pm, Terry Cross <tcros...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > Many of the atheists make excuses for the conduct of the Soviet Union,
>
> > And many Christians make excuses for the slaveholders of the
> > Confederacy. So what?
>
> They do? Where do you live? Bubbaville?
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/19/opinion/19Ball.html
Consider yourself corrected, bubba.
Andre
Kurt Nicklas
Yes, actually it was. My wife grew up in the Soviet Union. Went to
Moscow State University
where she had classes in Marxism and Atheism.
You're really not very smart are you, Terry?
No, you're not.
Michael A. Terrell
I haven't heard even one Christian defend slave holding, so you're
the bubba.
Robert Carnegie
I haven't studied his career, but I've rarely heard it said that he
and his movement did much against the USSR or even "its agents" -
perhaps someone will enlighten me. It was the United States and U.S.
citizens that were ill-used.
Terry Cross
> On Sun, 20 Feb 2011 14:56:51 -0500, Lawrence Watt-Evans <l...@sff.net>
> wrote:
>
> >>> Are draft animals "well treated"? Smart farmers treated their draft
> >>> animals well.
>
> >Thus demonstrating that many Southerners were bloody stupid.
>
> Treating draft animals well is similar to treating men on a chain gang
> well, with enough food and rest to work very hard, and being careful
> with the beatings to not interfere too much with their work.
Regular beatings make people stupid and sullen -- and unable to work.
Hollywood has poisoned your mind.
> Still, I suspect fewer draft animals were raped than slaves (or
> prisoners).
You have been reading too much pornography. Rape makes pregnancies,
and too many pregnancies and children prevent a draft animal for doing
other work. Review your sources. :-)
TCross
Terry Cross
> On Sun, 20 Feb 2011 11:40:22 -0600, Mitchell Holman
>
> <nom...@comcast.net> wrote:
> >news:fe2f39e2-ae85-4f5b...@q40g2000prh.googlegroups.com:
>
> >> On Feb 20, 6:47 am, "thomas p." <gudl...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>> "Lawrence Watt-Evans" <l...@sff.net> skrev i
> >>> meddelelsennews:kssvl6550nf1
>
> >> Are draft animals "well treated"? Smart farmers treated their draft
> >> animals well.
>
> Thus demonstrating that many Southerners were bloody stupid.
Rather, it indicates that your sources are swayed by pornography
rather than history.
TCross
Terry Cross
No, the Communists of Hollywood overwhelmed him with anti-PR and talk
of paranoia, communists under the bed, etc. He lost the PR war,
despite the obvious fact that the US government, military, and
financial structure of America was riddled with Communists more loyal
to the USSR than America. Armand Hammer is but one example.
TCross
TCross
Andre Lieven
stonewalled:
> Andre Lieven wrote:
>
> > On Feb 18, 11:21 am, "Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terr...@earthlink.net>
> > wrote:
> > > David Johnston wrote:
>
> > > > On Feb 16, 7:46 pm, Terry Cross <tcros...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > Many of the atheists make excuses for the conduct of the Soviet Union,
>
> > > > And many Christians make excuses for the slaveholders of the
> > > > Confederacy. So what?
>
> > > They do? Where do you live? Bubbaville?
>
> >http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/19/opinion/19Ball.html
>
> > Consider yourself corrected, bubba.
>
> I haven't heard even one Christian defend slave holding, so you're
> the bubba.
<Projection>
The people quoted in the linked article were trying to LIE their way
away from the FACT that the South seceeded specifically due to
slavery.
Their lying was due to their refusal to face the facts that:
1) Slavery is Bad(tm).
2) Their beloved South was hugely pro slavery.
3) Their beloved South fought a war to defend slavery.
4) Their view is that the South was justified in seceeding.
Thus, they continue to *defend* slavery. QED.
Andre
Bill Snyder
Dear me, Turkey Crap, you mean McCarthy actually accused a
big-time donor to his party like Armand Hammer? (For the
sarcasm-impaired: Nope.)
--
Bill Snyder [This space unintentionally left blank]
Terry Cross
You missed the irony. Look up "no true Scotsman."
TCross
Olrik
KOOK FIGHT!
thomas p.
news:Xns9E9276C8ADAA1...@216.196.121.131...
Another point to make is that slaves were legally no different than the
draft animals mentioned. Human beings treated as draft animals are not
treated well. My thanks to Terry for pointing that out.
thomas p.
news:ijsuok$i0o$2...@news.eternal-september.org...
And one more demonstration of kooks' tendency to read everything literally.
Kadaitcha Man
void and empty from any dram of mercy. Ye puking wanton and effeminate
boy, so warped a base pander. Ye shrieked:
> On Feb 20, 1:32 pm, Terry Cross<tcros...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Hey, fasgnadh, here's an interesting snippet for your you:
>>> I absolutely agree that the world is better off without the USSR, but
>>> what, exactly, does this have to do with atheism?
>>
>> Oh, of course -- the USSR was No True Atheist country.
>
> Yes, actually it was. My wife grew up in the Soviet Union. Went to
> Moscow State University
> where she had classes in Marxism and Atheism.
--
Official Overseer of Kooks and Trolls in alt.atheism.
Hammer of Thor: February 2007
Pierre Salinger Memorial Hook, Line & Sinker: September 2005
Pierre Salinger Memorial Hook, Line & Sinker: April 2006
Pierre Salinger Memorial Hook, Line & Sinker: January 2007
Pierre Salinger Memorial Hook, Line & Sinker: August 2008
Official Member: Cabal Obsidian Order COOSN-124-07-06660
Official Overseer of Kooks & Trolls in 24hoursupport.helpdesk
Barbara Woodhouse Memorial Dog Whistle, Official owner
and trainer of Bucky Breeder, August 2008.
Member of:
Usenet Ruiner List
Top Assholes on the Net List
Most Hated Usenetizens of All Time List
Cog in the AUK Hate Machine List
thomas p.
news:0tn3m6d94vsk20gke...@4ax.com...>>On Feb 20, 7:04Â pm, Robert Carnegie <rja.carne...@excite.com> wrote:
>>> On Feb 20, 5:08Â pm, Terry Cross <tcros...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> > On Feb 16, 11:08Â pm, "Mike Schilling" <mscottschill...@hotmail.com>
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>> > > "Terry Cross" <tcros...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>>
>>> > >news:2b249e9f-dec5-4387...@x3g2000yqj.googlegroups.com...
>>>
>>> > > > Many of the atheists make excuses for the conduct of the Soviet
>>> > > > Union,
>>> > > > and they are SO condemning of Hitler, McCarthy, and other strong
>>> > > > anti-
>>> > > > Communists for condemning the USSR
>>>
>>> > > Yes, that's what Hitler gets condemned for: being mean to the USSR.
>>>
>>> > "Being mean to the USSR and its agents" is the crime poor McCarthy
>>> > committed.
>>>
>>> I haven't studied his career, but I've rarely heard it said that he
>>> and his movement did much against the USSR or even "its agents" -
>>> citizens that were ill-used.
>>
>>
>>No, the Communists of Hollywood overwhelmed him with anti-PR and talk
>>of paranoia, communists under the bed, etc. He lost the PR war,
>>despite the obvious fact that the US government, military, and
>>financial structure of America was riddled with Communists more loyal
>>to the USSR than America. Armand Hammer is but one example.
>
> Dear me, Turkey Crap, you mean McCarthy actually accused a
> big-time donor to his party like Armand Hammer? (For the
> sarcasm-impaired: Nope.)
>
> --
> Bill Snyder [This space unintentionally left blank]
One just has to look at the typical Hollywood product of the late 40's and
50's to see how absurd the claim of McCarthy being overwhelmed by Communist
propaganda from Hollywood is. Armand Hammer was as much a Communist as
Henry Ford. Like any good capitalist his devotion was to profit, i.e. he
sold to anyone who could buy and was always interested in more buyers.
W.T.S.
00a46b...@q14g2000vbf.googlegroups.com>, kurtn...@gmail.com
says...
Catholic Church.
--
http://www.rhrealitycheck.org/print/14481
Terry Cross
> "Bill Snyder" <bsny...@airmail.net> skrev i meddelelsennews:0tn3m6d94vsk20gke...@4ax.com...
>
>
>
> > On Sun, 20 Feb 2011 19:33:14 -0800 (PST), Terry Cross
>
> >>On Feb 20, 7:04 pm, Robert Carnegie <rja.carne...@excite.com> wrote:
> >>> On Feb 20, 5:08 pm, Terry Cross <tcros...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>> > On Feb 16, 11:08 pm, "Mike Schilling" <mscottschill...@hotmail.com>
> >>> > wrote:
>
> >>> > > "Terry Cross" <tcros...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
> >>> > >news:2b249e9f-dec5-4387...@x3g2000yqj.googlegroups.com...
>
> >>> > > > Many of the atheists make excuses for the conduct of the Soviet
> >>> > > > Union,
> >>> > > > and they are SO condemning of Hitler, McCarthy, and other strong
> >>> > > > anti-
> >>> > > > Communists for condemning the USSR
>
> >>> > > Yes, that's what Hitler gets condemned for: being mean to the USSR.
>
> >>> > "Being mean to the USSR and its agents" is the crime poor McCarthy
> >>> > committed.
>
> >>> I haven't studied his career, but I've rarely heard it said that he
> >>> and his movement did much against the USSR or even "its agents" -
> >>> citizens that were ill-used.
>
> >>No, the Communists of Hollywood overwhelmed him with anti-PR and talk
> >>of paranoia, communists under the bed, etc. He lost the PR war,
> >>despite the obvious fact that the US government, military, and
> >>financial structure of America was riddled with Communists more loyal
> >>to the USSR than America. Armand Hammer is but one example.
>
> > Dear me, Turkey Crap, you mean McCarthy actually accused a
> > big-time donor to his party like Armand Hammer? (For the
> > sarcasm-impaired: Nope.)
>
> > --
> > Bill Snyder [This space unintentionally left blank]
>
> One just has to look at the typical Hollywood product of the late 40's and
> 50's to see how absurd the claim of McCarthy being overwhelmed by Communist
> propaganda from Hollywood is. Armand Hammer was as much a Communist as
> Henry Ford.
Or Vladimir Lenin, for all of that. Since Communism is a scam and a
fraud, being pro-communist does in any way imply that one IS a
communist.
> Like any good capitalist his devotion was to profit, i.e. he
> sold to anyone who could buy and was always interested in more buyers.
Ah, no. The record shows that Armand Hammer was a great
"philanthropist" -- a concept totally at odds with capitalism, and may
be a cover for all kinds of non-capitalist practices. Hammer was also
widely known as a Communist "sympathizer".
TCross
Terry Cross
> In article <4933a5a5-07b8-45ef-857d-
> 00a46bc89...@q14g2000vbf.googlegroups.com>, kurtnick...@gmail.com
> says...
>
>
>
> > On Feb 20, 1:32 pm, Terry Cross <tcros...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > On Feb 16, 5:03 pm, raven1 <quoththera...@nevermore.com> wrote:
>
> > > > On Wed, 16 Feb 2011 14:40:38 -0800 (PST), Sound of Trumpet
>
> > > > <sound_of_trum...@gawab.com> wrote:
> > > > >Why the World is Better Off Without the USSR
>
> > > > I absolutely agree that the world is better off without the USSR, but
> > > > what, exactly, does this have to do with atheism?
>
> > > Oh, of course -- the USSR was No True Atheist country.
>
> > Yes, actually it was. My wife grew up in the Soviet Union. Went to
> > Moscow State University
> > where she had classes in Marxism and Atheism.
>
> > You're really not very smart are you, Terry?
>
> > No, you're not.
>
> And, eventually, Ireland will be better off without the iron grip of the
> Catholic Church.
And all those occupation forces from the Vatican in Ireland! When oh
when will dear old Eire be free of those?
TCross
Robert Carnegie
But breeding your female draft animal with a genetically superior
specimen produces more valuable offspring. And is a whole lotta fun
if you're so inclined. There are people today who spend good money to
buy a plastic imitation woman solely for their own sexual pleasure.
(And a certatin amount of modern abuse of draft animals.) Logically,
when it was possible to buy an actual woman on the same terms, many
would do.
According to Wikipedia "Genetic research suggests that a considerable
minority of white Americans (estimated at 1/3 of the population by
some geneticists such as Mark Shriver) has some distant African-
American ancestry, and that the majority of black Americans have some
European ancestry."
Robert Carnegie
Well, now I understand how it was that the Communists won (but wait).
Ben Kaufman
wrote:
LOL, Terry got you.
thomas p.
news:efdd7e17-5c85-42f4...@k7g2000yqj.googlegroups.com...
thomas p wrote:
Yes, as James Baldwin once said (commenting on the racist charge that Blacks
had low morals): "If I am part White, it is not because my grandmother
raped your grandfather".
thomas p.
thomas p wrote:
Actually the Commies won, but they are so Satanically clever that they have
managed to keep it all a secret.
: ))
Michael Stemper
>"Michael A. Terrell" <mike.t...@earthlink.net> skrev i meddelelsen news:mtOdnenWz_41AcPQ...@earthlink.com...
>> David Johnston wrote:
>>> On Feb 16, 7:46 pm, Terry Cross <tcros...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>> > Many of the atheists make excuses for the conduct of the Soviet Union,
>>>
>>> And many Christians make excuses for the slaveholders of the
>>> Confederacy. So what?
>>
>> They do? Where do you live? Bubbaville?
>
>At least up to the 60's in the US elementary and high school history texts
Right here, we can tell that you're making shit up. There was no such
thing as a universally-used textbook. Each school district made its
own selections, with the glaring exception of Texas, where the central
government dictated which books were to be used -- in Texas. [1]
Therefore, it's impossible to make statements about what was or was
not in U.S. text books.
>explained that the great majority of slaves were well treated and had a good
>life.
The centennial of the start of the Slaveholders' Insurrection occured
at the end of second grade for me, so this event and things leading up
to it were significant pseudo-current topics in my education. I never
once was told such a thing. Excerpts from Harriet Beecher Stowe, yes.
Pro-slaveholder propaganda, no.
[1] This is why there was a "Texas Schhol Book Depositary".
--
Michael F. Stemper
#include <Standard_Disclaimer>
"Writing about jazz is like dancing about architecture" - Thelonious Monk
Apostate
mste...@walkabout.empros.com (Michael Stemper) wrote:
>In article <4d5fb41e$0$56775$edfa...@dtext02.news.tele.dk>, "thomas p." <gud...@yahoo.com> writes:
>>"Michael A. Terrell" <mike.t...@earthlink.net> skrev i meddelelsen news:mtOdnenWz_41AcPQ...@earthlink.com...
>>> David Johnston wrote:
>>>> On Feb 16, 7:46 pm, Terry Cross <tcros...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>>> > Many of the atheists make excuses for the conduct of the Soviet Union,
>>>>
>>>> And many Christians make excuses for the slaveholders of the
>>>> Confederacy. So what?
>>>
>>> They do? Where do you live? Bubbaville?
>>
>>At least up to the 60's in the US elementary and high school history texts
>
>Right here, we can tell that you're making shit up. There was no such
>thing as a universally-used textbook. Each school district made its
>own selections, with the glaring exception of Texas, where the central
>government dictated which books were to be used -- in Texas. [1]
Who's making up what?
Please underline the "universally-used" in the text you've replied to
here. "elementary and high school history texts" doesn't entail or
imply *all* elementary and high school history texts, unless you need
it to, to spin off into an attack against a strawman.
Did you think the poster meant he'd studied from all the history texts
in the U.S., or that someone else had done so?
He described a condition that existed, he didn't claim *everywhere*.
>
>Therefore, it's impossible to make statements about what was or was
>not in U.S. text books.
Of course it is not, because only you added "all" or "every" into the
equation. A straightforward reading of the above statement stands by
itself as trivially false.
>
<snip>
--
Apostate alt.atheist #1931 I've found it!
BAAWA Knife AND SMASHer freelance Minion #'e'
EAC Deputy Director in Charge of Getting Paid,
Department of Redundancy Department
"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure
and the intelligent are full of doubt." -- Bertrand Russell
"Mr. Worf, set phasers on "Fuck You" and fire at will."
-- Doc Smartass
"Nature has a dark sense of humor, but life is certainly
one of the things it laughs at."
-- Rinaldo of Capadoccia
e-mail to %mynick%periodaaperiod%myAA#%@gee!mail!dottedcommie
David Johnston
> On Feb 20, 6:47 am, "thomas p." <gudl...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > "Lawrence Watt-Evans" <l...@sff.net> skrev i meddelelsennews:kssvl6550nf1a9vdq...@reader80.eternal-september.org...> > >>"Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terr...@earthlink.net> skrev i meddelelsen
> > >>news:mtOdnenWz_41AcPQ...@earthlink.com...
>
> > >>> David Johnston wrote:
>
> > >>>> On Feb 16, 7:46 pm, Terry Cross <tcros...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > >>>> > Many of the atheists make excuses for the conduct of the Soviet
> > >>>> > Union,
>
> > >>>> And many Christians make excuses for the slaveholders of the
> > >>>> Confederacy. So what?
>
> > >>> They do? Where do you live? Bubbaville?
>
> > >>At least up to the 60's in the US elementary and high school history texts
> > >>good life.
>
>
> > Of course not, but it was a common enough idea and not just in the South.
> > It was no doubt rare that any teacher openly defended the institution
> > itself, but segregation was either completely ignored or seen as necessary.
>
> animals well.
And thus we have an example of a Christian apologist for slave
holders.
fasgnadh
> On Wed, 16 Feb 2011 23:57:36 -0800 (PST), Terry Cross
> <tcro...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> raven1 and the other atheists nervously watch the spread of my thesis: B^]
>>> On Wed, 16 Feb 2011 14:40:38 -0800 (PST), Sound of Trumpet
>>>
>>> <sound_of_trum...@gawab.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Why the World is Better Off Without the USSR
>>>
>>> I absolutely agree that the world is better off without the USSR, but
>>> what, exactly, does this have to do with atheism?
Playing dumb won't help you, the atheist tyrannies are well documented;
"Atheism is the natural and inseparable part of Communism."
-Vladimir Ilyich Ulyanov (Lenin)
"We must combat religion"
-Vladimir Ilyich Ulyanov (Lenin)
“Down with religion and long live atheism;
the dissemination of atheist views is our chief task!”
- Vladimir Ilyich Ulyanov (Lenin)
"Our program necessarily includes the propaganda of atheism."
- Vladimir Ilyich Ulyanov (Lenin)
>>
>> Yeah, right, the Politburo was Hindu, wasn't it? Or something like
>> that.
>
> Again, the relevance to atheism in general might be?
That the atheist regimes, The Union of Savage Slaughter and
Repression(USSR) Mao's Cultural Devolution and Great Leap Backwards and
Pol Pot's Genocide were the ONLY atheist states in history, everyone of
which was a TYRANNY and killing over 70,000,000 people, far more than
any religion.
Playing dumb won't help you, it just demonstrates why the atheist
sheep were so easily led to destruction;
# http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_atheism#Wolak2004
#
# "State atheism is the official promotion of atheism
# by a government, typically by active suppression of
# religious freedom and practice."
# - "Protest for Religious Rights in the USSR:
# Characteristics and Consequences,
# David Kowalewski,
# Russian Review, Vol. 39, No. 4 (Oct., 1980), pp. 426-441,
#
#
# "An atheist, Pol Pot suppressed Cambodia’s Buddhist religion:
# monks were defrocked; temples and artifacts, including statues of
# Buddha, were destroyed; and people praying or expressing
# other religious sentiments were often killed.
# ...the government emptied the cities through mass evacuations
# and sent people to the countryside. Cambodians were overworked
# and underfed on collective farms, often succumbing to disease or
# starvation as a result. Spouses were separated and family meals
# prohibited in order to steer loyalties toward the state
# instead of the family.
#
# About 1.7 million Cambodians, or about 20 percent of the population,
# were worked, starved, or beaten to death under Pol Pot’s regime."
# - http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761579038/pol_pot.html
#
# The Cambodian Genocide:
http://www.lietuvos.net/istorija/communism/communism_photos2/392millones.jpg
#
# "The country's 40,000 to 60,000 Buddhist monks,
# regarded by the regime as social parasites,
# were defrocked and forced into labor brigades.
# Many monks were executed; temples and pagodas were
# destroyed or turned into storehouses or jails.
# Images of the Buddha were defaced and dumped into
# rivers and lakes. People who were discovered praying
# or expressing religious sentiments in other ways
# were often killed.
#
# The Christian and Muslim communities were among the most
# persecuted, as well. The Roman Catholic cathedral of
# Phnom Penh was completely razed.
#
# The Khmer Rouge forced Muslims to eat pork, which they
# regard as an abomination. Many of those who refused were killed.
# Christian clergy and Muslim imams were executed."
# - http://countrystudies.us/cambodia/29.htm
#
# "Forty-eight percent of Cambodia's Christians were killed
# because of their religion."
#
http://www.lietuvos.net/istorija/communism/communism_photos2/44camboyano.jpg
#
#
# "the state established atheism as the only scientific truth."
# - Daniel Peris,
# "Storming the Heavens: The Soviet League of the Militant Godless"
# Cornell University Press 1998 ISBN 9780801434853
#
#
# "State atheism has been mostly implemented in communist
# countries, such as the former Soviet Union,[1] China,
# Communist Albania, Communist Afghanistan, North Korea,
# Communist Mongolia and Poland under communist rule also
# promoted state atheism and suppressed religion.
# - Forced out: the fate of Polish Jewry in Communist Poland.
# Wolak, Arthur J. p 104
#
# In these nations, the governments viewed atheism as an
# intrinsic part of communist ideology.
>> Whatever, it was the official religion.
No it was the official IDEOLOGY, atheism like Fascism, Racism,
Colonialism, Nazism, Imperialism is a false ideoloyy, not a genuine
religion.
--
---------
alt.atheism FAQ:
http://altatheismfaq.blogspot.com/
http://groups.google.com.au/group/alt.atheism/msg/7c0978c14fd4ed37?hl=en&dmode=source
"Atheism is the natural and inseparable part of Communism."
-Vladimir Ilyich Ulyanov (Lenin)
"We must combat religion"
-Vladimir Ilyich Ulyanov (Lenin)
“Down with religion and long live atheism;
the dissemination of atheist views is our chief task!”
- Vladimir Ilyich Ulyanov (Lenin)
"Our program necessarily includes the propaganda of atheism."
- Vladimir Ilyich Ulyanov (Lenin)
http://www.atheistnexus.org/photo/2182797:Photo:8290?context=latest
http://www.atheistnexus.org/photo/2182797:Photo:8295?context=latest
http://www.atheistnexus.org/photo/2182797:Photo:6348?context=latest
http://www.atheistnexus.org/photo/2182797:Photo:17478?context=latest
"How can you make a revolution without firing squads?"
- Lenin
http://www.atheistnexus.org/photo/2182797:Photo:17475?context=latest
http://www.c96trading.com/Nagant_NKVD_300h.jpg
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/telegraph/multimedia/archive/01001/Tsar-family_1001874c.jpg
fasgnadh
> Kurt Nicklas, a stony coward and coistrel, a piss-drinking ass-head,
> void and empty from any dram of mercy. Ye puking wanton and effeminate
> boy, so warped a base pander. Ye shrieked:
>
>> On Feb 20, 1:32 pm, Terry Cross<tcros...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hey, fasgnadh, here's an interesting snippet for your you:
>
>>>> I absolutely agree that the world is better off without the USSR, but
>>>> what, exactly, does this have to do with atheism?
>>>
>>> Oh, of course -- the USSR was No True Atheist country.
>>
The no-true atheist fallacy! I wrote about it years ago! B^D
I have liverd to see my critique of the atheist myth take hold
and ave a life of it's own. Deeply satisfying, especially as
the atheists thought their best defense was in ignoring the facts!
"Let a thousand Flowers Bloom!"
BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAAA
>> Yes, actually it was. My wife grew up in the Soviet Union. Went to
>> Moscow State University
>> where she had classes in Marxism and Atheism.
Yes I know, my critique of atheist tyranny has taken hold and now
many others are conceding that they systematically implemented
atheist ideology, just as Lenin said:
"Atheism is the natural and inseparable part of Communism."
-Vladimir Ilyich Ulyanov (Lenin)
"We must combat religion"
-Vladimir Ilyich Ulyanov (Lenin)
“Down with religion and long live atheism;
the dissemination of atheist views is our chief task!”
- Vladimir Ilyich Ulyanov (Lenin)
"Our program necessarily includes the propaganda of atheism."
- Vladimir Ilyich Ulyanov (Lenin)
"You know, they are fooling us, there is no God...
all this talk about God is sheer nonsense"
- Stalin
E. Yaroslavsky, Landmarks in the Life of Stalin,
Foreign Languages Publishing House, Moscow 1940
But it was not just the Atheism of the leadership,
but of the entire atheist State apparatus;
The Atheist leadership's policies were implemented under
the Red Terror, via gulags and executions, the use of
every arm of the state for anti-religious propaganda
and the forced indoctrination of CHILDREN! B^[
“We do not fight against believers and not even clergymen.
WE FIGHT AGAINST GOD to snatch believers from Him.”
-Vechernaia Moskva, a Soviet newspaper
“Let us drive out the Capitalists from the earth,
and God from Heaven!” (early Soviet slogan)
"the state established atheism as the only scientific truth."
- Daniel Peris,
"Storming the Heavens: The Soviet League of the Militant Godless"
Cornell University Press 1998 ISBN 9780801434853
"Criticism of atheism was strictly forbidden"
"Between 1917 and 1940, 130,000 Orthodox priests were arrested.
In 1918, the Cheka under Felix Dzerzhinsky executed over
3000 Orthodox clergymen of all ranks.
Some were drowned in ice-holes or poured over with cold water
in winter until they turned to ice-pillars.
- John Shelton Curtis, The Russian Church and the Soviet State
(Boston: Little Brown, 1953)
--------
The truth is now out there, there are many other critics of
militant atheism who realise that history is the INDISPUTABLE
RECORD of atheisms catastrophic failure and are shoving it
down the throats of the worst atheist bigots in USENET.
Victory is mine. B^]
raven1
<tcro...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Ah, no. The record shows that Armand Hammer was a great
>"philanthropist" -- a concept totally at odds with capitalism
Yet practiced by millions of capitalists throughout the centuries.
raven1
When they string up the last priest from a lamp-post. You really don't
have a clue as to the political, economic, and social clout the RCC
has in Ireland, do you? It's much less than it was just a few decades
ago, but still enormous.
Bill Snyder
Ah, yes, the old "philanthropist" cover story. That's how we know
Bill Gates and Warren Buffett are not actually capitalists, but
Sekrit Commies. Then again, maybe that's how we know the Crossbot
is a not-so-Sekrit Crap Artist.
Robert Carnegie
> In article <4d5fb41e$0$56775$edfa...@dtext02.news.tele.dk>, "thomas p." <gud...@yahoo.com> writes:
> >"Michael A. Terrell" <mike.t...@earthlink.net> skrev i meddelelsen news:mtOdnenWz_41AcPQ...@earthlink.com...
> >> David Johnston wrote:
> >>> On Feb 16, 7:46 pm, Terry Cross <tcros...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>> > Many of the atheists make excuses for the conduct of the Soviet Union,
> >>>
> >>> And many Christians make excuses for the slaveholders of the
> >>> Confederacy. So what?
> >>
> >> They do? Where do you live? Bubbaville?
> >
> >At least up to the 60's in the US elementary and high school history texts
>
> Right here, we can tell that you're making shit up. There was no such
> thing as a universally-used textbook. Each school district made its
> own selections, with the glaring exception of Texas, where the central
> government dictated which books were to be used -- in Texas. [1]
>
> Therefore, it's impossible to make statements about what was or was
> not in U.S. text books.
>
> >explained that the great majority of slaves were well treated and had a good
> >life.
>
> The centennial of the start of the Slaveholders' Insurrection occured
> at the end of second grade for me, so this event and things leading up
> to it were significant pseudo-current topics in my education. I never
> once was told such a thing. Excerpts from Harriet Beecher Stowe, yes.
> Pro-slaveholder propaganda, no.
That's nice. However, amongst other things, I suppose each school
district didn't /write/ its own textbooks, they picked from a
catalogue. One in which "The book Texas wrote" will have been
relatively cheap.
I wonder if schools have been able to replace the pre-1960s
schoolbooks yet, if they felt the need to do so.
Wikipedia's uneven standard of contribution allows it to remind me
that it was indeed Texas's Board that last year deleted Archbishop
Oscar Romero from their version of history, which serves our purpose
as an indication of the way they do business.
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Óscar_Romero>
Ray Fischer
>On Feb 20, 1:52 pm, Howard Brazee <how...@brazee.net> wrote:
>> On Sun, 20 Feb 2011 14:56:51 -0500, Lawrence Watt-Evans <l...@sff.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >>> animals well.
>>
>>
>> Treating draft animals well is similar to treating men on a chain gang
>> well, with enough food and rest to work very hard, and being careful
>> with the beatings to not interfere too much with their work.
>
>Regular beatings make people stupid and sullen -- and unable to work.
And you know this from first-hand experience?
--
Ray Fischer | Mendacracy (n.) government by lying
rfis...@sonic.net | The new GOP ideal
Ray Fischer
>Playing dumb won't help you, the atheist tyrannies are well documented;
Being a rabid bigot won't help you since religious hatred and millings
are well documented. Further, your hate pretty well establishes that
your religion is corrupt.
Bill Snyder
wrote:
>Terry Cross <tcro...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>On Feb 20, 1:520m, Howard Brazee <how...@brazee.net> wrote:
>>> On Sun, 20 Feb 2011 14:56:51 -0500, Lawrence Watt-Evans <l...@sff.net>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> >>> Are draft animals "well treated"? mart farmers treated their draft
>>> >>> animals well.
>>>
>>> >Thus demonstrating that many Southerners were bloody stupid.
>>>
>>> Treating draft animals well is similar to treating men on a chain gang
>>> well, with enough food and rest to work very hard, and being careful
>>> with the beatings to not interfere too much with their work.
>>
>>Regular beatings make people stupid and sullen -- and unable to work.
>
>And you know this from first-hand experience?
Likeliest explanation I've heard so far.
fasgnadh
> fasgnadh celebrated the spread of his viewpoint:
>> raven1 acts dumb about the history of atheist TYRANNY:
>>> On Wed, 16 Feb 2011 23:57:36 -0800 (PST), Terry Cross
>>> <tcro...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>> raven1 and the other atheists nervously watch the spread of my
>>>> thesis: B^]
>>
>>>>> On Wed, 16 Feb 2011 14:40:38 -0800 (PST), Sound of Trumpet
>>>>>
>>>>> <sound_of_trum...@gawab.com> wrote:
>> >>>
>>>>>> Why the World is Better Off Without the USSR
>>>>>
>>>>> I absolutely agree that the world is better off without the USSR, but
>>>>> what, exactly, does this have to do with atheism?
>>
>>
>>
>> religion.
As anyone can see, the spirit of hater filled atheist bigotry is alive
and unwell:
# From: Steve Knight <skni...@cox.net>
# Newsgroups: alt.atheism
# Subject: A.A. BAAWA - FAQ
# Message-ID: <p8mrb5lvaf0cj5bp1...@4ax.com>
# Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2009 02:46:34 -0700
#
# We kill theists and shit down their throats
#
# Warlord Steve
# BAAWA
Not satisfied with murder, the atheist's 'Warlord'(sic)
advocates GENOCIDE, th murder of 1,600,000,000 men
women and children because of their beliefs;
# From: Steve Knight <skni...@cox.net>
# Newsgroups: alt.atheism,alt.religion.islam
# Subject: Re: Islam: the perfect religion and way of life for all
# Message-ID: <8t6ve5hs41qn3a2rv...@4ax.com>
# Date: Mon, 02 Nov 2009 18:58:18 -0800
#
# On Mon, 2 Nov 2009 21:22:32 +0200, "Katrina"
# <blondes_g...@yahoo.com> wrote:
#
# >Islam: the perfect religion and way of life for all
#
# It is the most foul, disgusting filth on Earth.
# The sooner we nuke you fuckers, the better.
#
# Warlord Steve
# BAAWA
> Being a rabid bigot won't help
It sure didn't help that psychopath Whorelord of yours when I
sent him and his hate-filled Islamophobia packing! B^D
But he was useful to demonstrate the violent
> hatred
which atheists continually express:
http://www.atheistnexus.org/photo/2182797:Photo:17475?context=latest
militant atheism is clearly a violent hate-filled perversion!
> hate pretty well establishes that
There is so much of it from atheist sociiopaths it is easy to provide
the evidence, something atheist slanderers NEVER have for their vile
accusations..
<snip baseless accusations and pathetic slanders>
thomas p.
news:ijubio$6vr$4...@news.eternal-september.org...
> In article <4d5fb41e$0$56775$edfa...@dtext02.news.tele.dk>, "thomas p."
> <gud...@yahoo.com> writes:
>>"Michael A. Terrell" <mike.t...@earthlink.net> skrev i meddelelsen
>>news:mtOdnenWz_41AcPQ...@earthlink.com...
>>> David Johnston wrote:
>>>> On Feb 16, 7:46 pm, Terry Cross <tcros...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>>> > Many of the atheists make excuses for the conduct of the Soviet
>>>> > Union,
>>>>
>>>> And many Christians make excuses for the slaveholders of the
>>>> Confederacy. So what?
>>>
>>> They do? Where do you live? Bubbaville?
>>
>>At least up to the 60's in the US elementary and high school history texts
>
> Right here, we can tell that you're making shit up. There was no such
> thing as a universally-used textbook.
Where did I make any such claim? It would be nice if you apologised.
Each school district made its
> own selections, with the glaring exception of Texas, where the central
> government dictated which books were to be used -- in Texas. [1]
>
> Therefore, it's impossible to make statements about what was or was
> not in U.S. text books.
I made no claim that any book was universally used.
thomas p.
news:ual5m691be9c5ug09...@4ax.com...
It is something that he does not wish to know anything about.
Les Hellawell
wrote:
What they would likely do is act dumb and do just what they
were told to do and nothing more. they would need constant
supervision.
Les Hellawell
Greetings from:
Yorkshire -The White Rose County
raven1
Bill Snyder
I merely meant that "stupid and sullen" struck me as a pretty fair
description of the Crossbot, although whether the effects extend
to inability to work is of course speculative.
fasgnadh
> On 2011-02-20 19:05, Kurt Nicklas wrote:
>> On Feb 20, 1:32 pm, Terry Cross<tcros...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Feb 16, 5:03 pm, raven1<quoththera...@nevermore.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Wed, 16 Feb 2011 14:40:38 -0800 (PST), Sound of Trumpet
>>>
>>>> <sound_of_trum...@gawab.com> wrote:
>>>>> Why the World is Better Off Without the USSR
>>>
>>>> I absolutely agree that the world is better off without the USSR, but
>>>> what, exactly, does this have to do with atheism?
>>>
>>> Oh, of course -- the USSR was No True Atheist country.
>>
>> Yes, actually it was. My wife grew up in the Soviet Union. Went to
>> Moscow State University
>> where she had classes in Marxism and Atheism.
>>
>> You're really not very smart are you, Terry?
>>
>> No, you're not.
>
The atheist kooks have already lost. B^]
Jimbo
> On Feb 16, 2:40 pm, Sound of Trumpet <sound_of_trum...@gawab.com>
> wrote:
>
> >http://volokh.com/2011/02/15/assessing-the-fall-of-the-ussr/
>
> > Why the World is Better Off Without the USSR
>
>
> Oh, but you know the USSR officials weren't TRUE Atheists.
Some were, some where not atheists at all. The "church" that was
destroyed was not destroyed for religious or atheistic reasons. It
was destroyed for taking money from the very poor and hording it in
gold and gems, in addition to having been accused of harboring all
manner of criminals, from murderers to pedophiles over a 40 year
period of time. It was warned to report its income and pay it's
taxes several times. The last straw came when the church refused to
release Andean Valovitch, a convicted murderer within the local
community and members of that local community began an angry protest
outside of the church itself. Valovitch murdered 6 women and was
being harbored by the church after escaping from a local jail before
being transferred to a prison camp. The protest escalated and the
government became involved using that as an excuse to confinscate for
it's back taxes. (Churches did not enjoy tax exempt status in the
USSR).
Since that, ill informed christer types have been erronously trying to
use that as a "oh pitiful us!" argument.
Jimbo
> On Wed, 16 Feb 2011 20:03:32 -0500, raven1
>
> <quoththera...@nevermore.com> wrote:
> >On Wed, 16 Feb 2011 14:40:38 -0800 (PST), Sound of Trumpet
> ><sound_of_trum...@gawab.com> wrote:
>
> >>Why the World is Better Off Without the USSR
>
> >what, exactly, does this have to do with atheism?
>
>
Man religionists, and particularly those that post in alt.atheism,
dishonestly try to conflate a tyrannical government, with all other
atheists.
Jimbo
> On Feb 16, 5:38 pm, raven1 <quoththera...@nevermore.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Wed, 16 Feb 2011 14:53:16 -0800 (PST), Terry Cross
>
> > <tcros...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > >On Feb 16, 2:40 pm, Sound of Trumpet <sound_of_trum...@gawab.com>
> > >wrote:
> > >>http://volokh.com/2011/02/15/assessing-the-fall-of-the-ussr/
>
> > >> Why the World is Better Off Without the USSR
>
>
> > >Atheists are sweet, kind, generous, and loving like all the people in
> > >alt.atheism.
>
> > I think you'd find that most atheists here are quite happy to see the
> > USSR gone.
>
> Many of the atheists make excuses for the conduct of the Soviet Union,
Bullshit, liar Terry.
Jimbo
wrote:
> "Terry Cross" <tcros...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:2b249e9f-dec5-4387...@x3g2000yqj.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> > Communists for condemning the USSR
>
> Yes, that's what Hitler gets condemned for: being mean to the USSR.
Yep... Hitler murdered huge numbers of Soviet Civilians who were
little more than farmers, shopowners, and families. The vast majority
of them were not atheists at all, they comprised Eastern Orthodox
Christians and Jews for the most part. McCarthy was an drunken
asshole whose mostly erroneous accusations cost innocent men and women
thier careers. The very few that McCarthy correctly accused was
already known by the Justice Department. He was eventually censured
and driven out of Washington, and good riddance.
These are the assholes that Cross supports.
Jimbo
> On Feb 19, 4:14 am, "thomas p." <gudl...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terr...@earthlink.net> skrev i meddelelsennews:mtOdnenWz_41AcPQ...@earthlink.com...
>
> > > David Johnston wrote:
>
> > >> On Feb 16, 7:46 pm, Terry Cross <tcros...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > >> > Many of the atheists make excuses for the conduct of the Soviet Union,
>
> > >> Confederacy. So what?
>
> > > They do? Where do you live? Bubbaville?
>
> > At least up to the 60's in the US elementary and high school history texts
> > in any case), but it is hard to imagine that the attitude itself
> > disappeared.
>
> Right. Nothing changes in 50 years, including all the Atheist excuses
> for brutality of the Soviet Union,
The brutality was not committed for atheistic reasons. No one painted
an atheist symbol on their shields and started killing people. No one
killed anyone in the name of no god. Tyrannical governments will
always be brutal to obtain and then maintain power. There are no
"excuses" needed to explain the brutality of a tyrrant.
Jimbo
> On Feb 20, 6:47 am, "thomas p." <gudl...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Lawrence Watt-Evans" <l...@sff.net> skrev i meddelelsennews:kssvl6550nf1a9vdq...@reader80.eternal-september.org...
>
> > > wrote:
>
> > >>"Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terr...@earthlink.net> skrev i meddelelsen
> > >>news:mtOdnenWz_41AcPQ...@earthlink.com...
>
> > >>> David Johnston wrote:
>
> > >>>> On Feb 16, 7:46 pm, Terry Cross <tcros...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > >>>> > Many of the atheists make excuses for the conduct of the Soviet
> > >>>> > Union,
>
> > >>>> And many Christians make excuses for the slaveholders of the
> > >>>> Confederacy. So what?
>
> > >>> They do? Where do you live? Bubbaville?
>
> > >>At least up to the 60's in the US elementary and high school history texts
> > >>explained that the great majority of slaves were well treated and had a
> > >>good life.
>
>
> > Of course not, but it was a common enough idea and not just in the South.
> > It was no doubt rare that any teacher openly defended the institution
> > itself, but segregation was either completely ignored or seen as necessary.
>
And there you have it folks. According to liar Terry here, slaves are
likened to draft animals.
Jimbo
> On Feb 16, 11:08 pm, "Mike Schilling" <mscottschill...@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > "Terry Cross" <tcros...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
> >news:2b249e9f-dec5-4387...@x3g2000yqj.googlegroups.com...
>
> > > Communists for condemning the USSR
>
> > Yes, that's what Hitler gets condemned for: being mean to the USSR.
>
> committed.
>
Nonsense. The crime that asshole McCarthy committed was falsely
accusing many in our own country of being communist and costing
innocent men and women their livelyhoods. Congress eventually started
investigating his accusations and censured him, particularly after he
began erroneously accusing high ranking members of our military.
McCarthy was a drunken bum, unfit for the office he held.
Jimbo
> On Feb 17, 5:58 am, raven1 <quoththera...@nevermore.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Wed, 16 Feb 2011 18:46:56 -0800 (PST), Terry Cross
>
> > <tcros...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > >On Feb 16, 5:38 pm, raven1 <quoththera...@nevermore.com> wrote:
>
> > >> <tcros...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > >> >On Feb 16, 2:40 pm, Sound of Trumpet <sound_of_trum...@gawab.com>
> > >> >wrote:
> > >> >>http://volokh.com/2011/02/15/assessing-the-fall-of-the-ussr/
>
> > >> >> Why the World is Better Off Without the USSR
>
> > >> >> Ilya Somin February 15, 2011 3:58 am
>
> > >> >Oh, but you know the USSR officials weren't TRUE Atheists. True
> > >> >Atheists are sweet, kind, generous, and loving like all the people in
> > >> >alt.atheism.
>
> > >> I think you'd find that most atheists here are quite happy to see the
> > >> USSR gone.
>
>
>
> The truth is not news.
You're a lying idiot.