alt.binaries.prictures.erotica.ll-series have to be banned!!
DaRkNeSS
children having sex!
i hate this kinda stuff..
DaRkNeSS
Ronald P. Hunter
Then DON'T LOOK AT IT. I hate some of the other groups, like people talking
about basketball, or baseball. They are offensive to me. Let's remove them.
What about those groups where people discuss quilts. How OBSCENE. Out they
go. And all the religious groups,,, they offend the atheists, out they go.
Put your feet on the slippery slope and slide into oblivion.
There are a LOT of groups you couldn't PAY me to look at, but I don't run
around advocating their removal, I just DON'T LOOK AT THEM. You should do the
same.
--
Ron Hunter rphu...@home.com
Doug Davis
>You guys have really opened the door to these types of silly demands
>by dropping alt.flame.nigger. It is an offensive group, as are many on
>usenet. So I choose not to subscribe to it. But for my ten dollars a
>month, I wish to make that choice for myself.
Actually the choice was made by the rmgroup. Not by Airnews.
>If Airnews does not change its policies, I would imagine that many of
>your customers will move to Altopia and Newscene because they carry
>the groups that you are dropping or refusing to add. Do you really
>want to lose customers over your misguided policies?
I think you need to research what happend more.
John Huff
article<B0A5523934124CCA.4D8D65DE...@lp.airnews.net>,"Ronald
P. Hunter" <rphu...@home.com> wrote: with much thought
Ronald,
Now, now, they're just voicing themselves about the removal of a
group. They're right to free speech, you know.
John Huff
Frank Durda IV
> Yes staff, and while we are banning groups, please do away with the
> alt.religion, alt.philosophy, and alt.christnet groups. I hate this
> kinda stuff. These are actually people discussing ideas that many find
> offensive. We cannot allow free speech to continue unchecked on
> Airnews.
Attention K-mart shoppers: The group in the subject line was ADDED.
The fact that we ADDED the group (after a request AND it met established
criteria) is what the person is complaining about, NOT that it was
removed.
See?
Group name time who newgrouped it
alt.binaries.pictures.erotica.ll-series 930154307 lane...@hotmail.com
930154307 which is Wed Jun 23 11:11:47 1999
(This is the date it was added to our system - from active.times)
Active says:
alt.binaries.pictures.erotica.ll-series 0000000206 0000000001 y
> On Fri, 25 Jun 1999 10:09:11 GMT, Da...@PuNk.Net (DaRkNeSS) wrote:
> >this is just a stupid pedophile groups with binaries images of
> >children having sex!
> >i hate this kinda stuff..
Don't worry, I assume the LEAs and other watchdog groups are already
monitoring the group like they do similar groups. The feds like
these type of cases: quick to investigate, easy to get an indictment,
little trouble to get an arrest in just about any country, in court
this activity is hard to defend, and the jail-time and fines are
substantial. It doesn't matter where they post from, people who
post that stuff do get caught and their mailing, phone lists, bank
and credit card records also get confiscated, which leads to more
arrests.
Ferd Berfle
<uhclem...@nemesis.lonestar.org> wrote:
>> Paine wrote:
//begin sarcasm
>> Yes staff, and while we are banning groups, please do away with the
>> alt.religion, alt.philosophy, and alt.christnet groups. I hate this
>> kinda stuff. These are actually people discussing ideas that many find
>> offensive. We cannot allow free speech to continue unchecked on
>> Airnews.
//end sarcasm
Ronald P. Hunter
>
> On Fri, 25 Jun 1999 09:28:25 -0500, in
> article<B0A5523934124CCA.4D8D65DE...@lp.airnews.net>,"Ronald
> P. Hunter" <rphu...@home.com> wrote: with much thought
> >>
> >> this is just a stupid pedophile groups with binaries images of
> >> children having sex!
> >> i hate this kinda stuff..
> >
> >Then DON'T LOOK AT IT. I hate some of the other groups, like people talking
> >about basketball, or baseball. They are offensive to me. Let's remove them.
> >What about those groups where people discuss quilts. How OBSCENE. Out they
> >go. And all the religious groups,,, they offend the atheists, out they go.
> >Put your feet on the slippery slope and slide into oblivion.
> >
> >There are a LOT of groups you couldn't PAY me to look at, but I don't run
> >around advocating their removal, I just DON'T LOOK AT THEM. You should do the
> >same.
>
> Ronald,
>
> Now, now, they're just voicing themselves about the removal of a
> group. They're right to free speech, you know.
> John Huff
Yep, and MY opinion is also expressed. Freedom is sometimes an uncomfortable
situation.
--
Ron Hunter rphu...@home.com
Doug Davis
Paine <tomp...@revolution.now> wrote:
>
>I understand that a rmgroup message was issued, but I don't understand
>why Airnews quit carrying the group. Does "the rmgroup" decide what
>groups Airnews carries on its servers? Or does Frank and the staff
>decide the policies of their business? Did you know that the
>disgusting, offensive group alt.flame.niggers was still active on
>other premium servers that are in competition with Airnews?
There were three rmgroups issued. The most recent one was a week
or so ago. When researched we found two others. One from the creator
(I would consider that fairly authoritive) over 8 months ago.
As has been pointed out, repeatedly we really don't care what
other "premium news servers" carry or don't carry. Some of them
carry the other 60,000 some odd bogus groups and others directly
censor/editorialize their support groups.
>In the spirit of research, at 10PM Eastern, Altopia had 9340 messages
>in this group. 656 of them were posted today.
>
>At 9PM Eastern, Newscene had 8425 messages in this group. 629 of them
>were posted today.
>
>For some reason, these other servers have not removed this group, but
>Airnews has. These other two servers apparently have a policy of
>carrying whatever groups that the customers ask for, while here at
>Airnews the groups that we have access to are apparently already
>decided for us. In your own research, would you like to try to find
>out why these groups are active on these other servers, but not at
>Airnews? Does "the rmgroup" mean one thing here, but a different thing
>to Altopia and Newscene?
Yes. We follow established usenet policys. Altopia creates and
carrys anything (there are only 28k legit groups and Altopias
active file has 90k groups currently) I don't have an account
on newscene anymore as they found out I worked for Airnews
and canceled it. (I posted nothing, just sent their help
desk email about an issue)
>Free speech is often ugly and offensive. But the absence of free
>speech is even worse.
I agree. (FWIW, I'm a card carrying Libertarian) However, group
creation/deletion is a function of Usenets guidelines which we all
sort of loosely agree to adhear to. Since there is a legit rmgroup
from a legit source (and two others) what would you have us do?
Noone is interfering with your rights to free speech or expression.
If you want the group, go into alt.config get the newgroup issued
(or rmgroup canceled) and we will put it back. (you may not have
to do anything as it looks like others are already doing just that)
Look at it from another perspective, what liability is created
when we add or continue the group AFTER its been legitimately
removed?
Fap!
What exactly are the established criteria? THAT seems to be a point
of contention.
Criteria #1: Requested by customers
Criteria #2: Isn't alt.flame.niggers
Maybe?
Frank Durda IV
: What exactly are the established criteria [for adding groups]? THAT
: seems to be a point of contention.
The criteria for adding groups is on the web page right down there at the
bottom of the page.
http://www.airnews.net/addnews.html
The group you are trying to compare to (a.f.n) was removed in 1995 (less
than three hours after its creation) by the person whose name/system was
used to create it (yep, a forgery). It was also removed at FOUR later dates
and it shoud never have been here at all.
(The group in the subject line of this post has NOT been rmgrouped by anyone,
the difference between these two groups that you are looking for.)
In fact, a.f.n had been removed on three occasions years BEFORE Mr. Denebeim
came along. His latest rmgroup drew our attention to our error in carrying
the group, which we corrected. On it's own, Mr. Denebeims removal directive
would have been ignored for reasons explained earlier.
In this case, the "recognized authority" was the administrator at the
University of Texas back in 1995 who said he didn't send out the creation
message a few hours earlier that had his servers name forged to it, and he
wanted it removed. That person is "recognized". The three subsequent
removals PRIOR to the latest supported removal.
By the way, the site interbusiness.it sends out bad newgroup messages on
almost a daily basis, and these are almost universally ignored. The most
recent creation (in June of 1999) of a.f.n came from there and appears to
have been meant as a joke for alt.tasteless.jokes. A rmgroup to undo the
perpetual damage coming from interbusiness.it is common and are done by
people in addition Mr. Denebeims. Interbusiness.it has even sent out change
orders turning non-moderated groups into moderated ones, and vice versa,
causing even more problems.
Here is the history of creations and removals for a.f.n, right off of ISC.ORG.
(Noted items start with >>>) If you want to look yourself:
ftp://ftp.isc.org/pub/usenet/control/alt/alt.flame.niggers.Z
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>From alt.fan.o...@cs.utexas.edu Sat Oct 14 05:59:14 1995
Path: uunet!in1.uu.net!newsserver2.jvnc.net!io.net!rcolby
From: alt.fan.o...@cs.utexas.edu (Alt.Fan.OJ-Simpson)
Newsgroups: control,alt.flame.niggers.ctl
Subject: cmsg newgroup alt.flame.niggers
Control: newgroup alt.flame.niggers
>>>>>>>>>************************** Creation 5:59AM Oct 14, 1995
Date: 13 Oct 1995 12:21:19 GMT
Organization: THE DESTROYERS.
Reply-To: alt.fan.o...@cs.utexas.edu
Lines: 1
Approved: ne...@cs.utexas.edu
Message-ID: <4karap$2...@nigger.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu
Xref: uunet control.newgroup:2382
OJ Simpson is a murderer. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<The charter?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>From flet...@cs.utexas.edu Sat Oct 14 08:36:19 1995
Path: uunet!in2.uu.net!cs.utexas.edu!cs.utexas.edu!not-for-mail
From: flet...@cs.utexas.edu
Newsgroups: control,alt.flame.niggers.ctl
Subject: cmsg rmgroup alt.flame.niggers
Control: rmgroup alt.flame.niggers 8:36 AM Oct 14, 1995
>>>>>>>>>************************* REMOVAL 11111111111111111111111111111
Date: 13 Oct 1995 12:21:19 GMT
Approved: ne...@cs.utexas.edu
Message-ID: <-4karap$2...@nigger.net>
Lines: 26
Xref: uunet control.rmgroup:1165
The appended newgroup control message was forged.
Cs.utexas.edu had nothing to do with it other than to be a victim of a
forgery. The primary purpose of this rmgroup is to keep USENET
administrators, who may get this in their mailbox, from flooding my
mailbox with hate mail. It might also be nice if you honored it, but
that's up to you, of course.
Thanks
Fletcher
Path: cs.utexas.edu!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!newsserver2.jvnc.net!io.net!rcolby
From: alt.fan.o...@cs.utexas.edu (Alt.Fan.OJ-Simpson)
Newsgroups: control,alt.flame.niggers.ctl
Subject: cmsg newgroup alt.flame.niggers
Control: newgroup alt.flame.niggers
Date: 13 Oct 1995 12:21:19 GMT
Organization: THE DESTROYERS.
Reply-To: alt.fan.o...@cs.utexas.edu
Lines: 1
Approved: ne...@cs.utexas.edu
Message-ID: <4karap$2...@nigger.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu
OJ Simpson is a murderer.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>From s...@oro.net Tue Oct 31 02:58:09 1995
Path: uunet!in1.uu.net!sunrise.gv.ssi1.com!oronet!smudge.oro.net!smj
From: s...@oro.net
Newsgroups: alt.config,alt.flame.niggers.ctl
Subject: cmsg rmgroup alt.flame.niggers
Control: rmgroup alt.flame.niggers
>>>>>>>>>************************** ADDITIONAL REMOVAL 222222222222222222
Date: 31 Oct 1995 05:46:35 GMT
Organization: "oronet, Penn Valley, CA"
Lines: 27
Approved: s...@oro.net
Message-ID: <474d7r$m...@hg.oro.net>
References: <4karap$2...@nigger.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: s...@smudge.oro.net
Originator: s...@smudge.oro.net
Xref: uunet control.rmgroup:1367
not discussed in alt.config
joke/revenge/personal group
created without charter or tagline
The original article had these discrepencies:
Unknown Link: in1.uu.net!newsserver2.jvnc.net
Unknown Site: newsserver2.jvnc.net
Neither From:[sim...@cs.utexas.edu]
nor Originator:[]
nor Sender:[]
match the Path:[rcolby]
The orignal article was:
> Path: oronet!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!newsserver2.jvnc.net!io.net!rcolby
> From: alt.fan.o...@cs.utexas.edu (Alt.Fan.OJ-Simpson)
> Newsgroups: control,alt.flame.niggers.ctl
> Subject: cmsg newgroup alt.flame.niggers
> Control: newgroup alt.flame.niggers
> Date: 13 Oct 1995 12:21:19 GMT
> Organization: THE DESTROYERS.
> Reply-To: alt.fan.o...@cs.utexas.edu
> Lines: 1
> Approved: ne...@cs.utexas.edu
> Message-ID: <4karap$2...@nigger.net>
> NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu
>
> OJ Simpson is a murderer.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>From mt...@aber.ac.uk Wed Dec 4 13:19:30 1996
Path: uunet!in1.uu.net!134.222.90.2!EU.net!usenet2.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!uknet!strath-cs!dcl-cs!bath.ac.uk!aber!not-for-mail
From: mt...@aber.ac.uk
Newsgroups: alt.flame.niggers
Subject: cmsg rmgroup alt.flame.niggers
Control: rmgroup alt.flame.niggers
>>>>>>>>>************************* ANOTHER REMOVAL 33333333333333333333
Date: 4 Dec 1996 16:14:12 GMT
Organization: University of Wales - Aberystwyth - Prifysgol Cymru
Lines: 1
Approved: mt...@aber.ac.uk
Message-ID: <remove.alt.f...@osfb.aber.ac.uk>
NNTP-Posting-Host: osfb.aber.ac.uk
Xref: uunet control.rmgroup:7679
Remove group alt.flame.niggers
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>From us...@hotmail.com Mon Aug 10 13:55:42 1998
Path: news.isc.org!uunet!in2.uu.net!news-nyc.telia.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!24.92.226.83!newse1.twcny.rr.com!not-for-mail
From: us...@hotmail.com (None)
Control: rmgroup alt.flame.niggers
>>>>>>>>>************************* ANOTHER REMOVAL 44444444444444444444444
Newsgroups: alt.flame.niggers,alt.config
Approved: us...@hotmail.com
Subject: cmsg rmgroup alt.flame.niggers
Followup-To: poster
Summary: offensive, racist
Sender: us...@hotmail.com
Organization: None
Reply-To: us...@hotmail.com
Message-ID: <35cef6ee.12429134@news-server>
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.1/32.230
Lines: 8
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 17:34:28 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Host: d185d101a.rochester.rr.com
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 13:34:28 EDT
Xref: news.isc.org control.rmgroup:8950
Requesting removal of this group.
Aaron W
ICQ: 11243182
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>From m...@linux.it Thu Jun 3 16:58:15 1999
Path: news.isc.org!newsfeed.stanford.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!ayres.ftech.net!news.ftech.net!colt.net!Pollux.Teleglobe.net!server-b.cs.interbusiness.it!not-for-mail
From: m...@linux.it
Newsgroups: alt.tasteless.jokes
Subject: .
Control: newgroup alt.flame.niggers
>>> >>>Creation by known rogue news server***
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 1999 00:43:55 GMT
Organization: Centro Servizi Interbusiness
Approved: m...@linux.it
Message-ID: <37570c4...@news.interbusiness.it>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.120.226.44
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.01/16.397
Lines: 1
Xref: news.isc.org control.newgroup:163610
>>>(No charter, newsgroups line, explanation, or other information given)<<<
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>From altc...@deepthot.aurora.co.us Thu Jun 3 22:18:36 1999
Path: news.isc.org!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news.deepthot.aurora.co.us!bounce-back
From: Jay Denebeim <altc...@deepthot.aurora.co.us>
Newsgroups: alt.config,alt.flame.niggers
Subject: cmsg rmgroup alt.flame.niggers
Control: rmgroup alt.flame.niggers
>>>>>>>>>************************** MOST RECENT REMOVAL 555555555555555555
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 1999 05:19:48 -0000
Organization: Deep Thought
Lines: 46
Approved: Jay Denebeim <dene...@deepthot.aurora.co.us>
Message-ID: <9284735...@deepthot.aurora.co.us>
NNTP-Posting-Host: marvin.deepthot.aurora.co.us
X-Trace: dent.deepthot.aurora.co.us 928473590 31827 209.180.244.41 (4 Jun 1999 05:19:50 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: use...@news.deepthot.aurora.co.us
NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Jun 1999 05:19:50 GMT
X-Info: ftp://ftp.isc.org/pub/pgpcontrol/README.html
ftp://ftp.isc.org/pub/pgpcontrol/README
X-PGP-Sig: 2.6.3i Subject,Control,Message-ID,Date,From,Sender
iQBVAwUBN1dh9AyWFYlod6g9AQELggH+O1EhriOljzu2+pmv9jJTVgN3HhkOMG2q
EOkk0q4wdPIQBo4BabBkF+v1VW5BXZZzzzeJuRG1ecClefLplbg3sA==
=Esc7
Originator: altc...@deepthot.aurora.co.us (Alt Rmgroup Account)
Xref: news.isc.org control.rmgroup:82056
This rmgroup is being issued for the following reasons:
* Newgroup from tin.it
--
This rmgroup message has been signed. To automate add the following
to your control.ctl file:
rmgroup:altconfig@deepthot*:alt.*:verify-alt.config
Finger *is* working. The MIT server seems to be down, and I don't
know how to get it into the default server pgp 5 uses.
here is my public key:
Type Bits/KeyID Date User ID
pub 512/6877A83D 1999/04/07 alt.config
-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
Version: 2.6.3i
mQBNAzcKy5AAAAECAMXe66qTZBxnjmisPJct6yc6qgHbmOiqKwEG02zcXkI/ZBL/
NO4ufw8qJUyd57KejAkhBY/UI6WlDJYViWh3qD0ABRG0CmFsdC5jb25maWeJAFUD
BRA3CtqxDJYViWh3qD0BAemHAf9/ZoZkkTEzkK/oIp2ABVH5O+B3ntdrjo13Jcpc
Vex3ILQmBpq/w0pN3z7ji7ol710SBaAu3UgvKjCF259yakfX
=ojym
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
Path: news.deepthot.aurora.co.us!news1.bewellnet.com!newsfeed.stanford.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!ayres.ftech.net!news.ftech.net!colt.net!Pollux.Teleglobe.net!server-b.cs.interbusiness.it!not-for-mail
From: m...@linux.it
Newsgroups: alt.tasteless.jokes
Subject: .
Control: newgroup alt.flame.niggers
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 1999 00:43:55 GMT
Organization: Centro Servizi Interbusiness
Approved: m...@linux.it
Message-ID: <37570c4...@news.interbusiness.it>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.120.226.44
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.01/16.397
Lines: 1
Xref: news.deepthot.aurora.co.us control.newgroup:28499
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ronald P. Hunter
>
> On Fri, 25 Jun 1999 09:28:25 -0500, "Ronald P. Hunter"
> <rphu...@home.com> wrote:
>
> >DaRkNeSS wrote:
> >>
> >> this is just a stupid pedophile groups with binaries images of
> >> children having sex!
> >> i hate this kinda stuff..
> >> DaRkNeSS
> >
> >Then DON'T LOOK AT IT. I hate some of the other groups, like people talking
> >about basketball, or baseball. They are offensive to me. Let's remove them.
> >What about those groups where people discuss quilts. How OBSCENE. Out they
> >go. And all the religious groups,,, they offend the atheists, out they go.
> >Put your feet on the slippery slope and slide into oblivion.
> >
> >There are a LOT of groups you couldn't PAY me to look at, but I don't run
> >around advocating their removal, I just DON'T LOOK AT THEM. You should do the
>
> >same.
> in fact yeap i hate pedophile kinda stuff, it shocked me
> just knowing that a groups existing and thrashing the newsgroups scene
> make me feel realy bad, why the hell a children of about 5-10 years
> old being photographed sucking cocks and being post to a know
> newsgroups still exist?
> it is ofensive to me and to a majority of people i think!
> im not anti porn because i download a lots of porn/erotics pics
> alt.binaries.nospam.teenfem/alt.binaries.picture.erotica.als..or
> others are cool...no kiddies no underage just cool porn pics!
> finally black cat horny robs..or any others teen series are not
> offensive to me because 15-17 year old teenagers are concious about
> their sexuality sex between concenting people is cool..but forced rape
> sex with children is filth!
>
> see ya
> sorry for my bad english..im french speaking:-)
> DaRkNeSS
IF you don't want to see what is in those groups, DON'T GO THERE. The fact is
that such posts do exist, and posters WILL post that kind of stuff (even though
it is illegal in most places), and if there aren't places for them, they will
post it in OTHER GROUPS. At least, if there are groups for those who will post
those images, those who don't want to see them can avoid them.
Nothing wrong with your english.
--
Ron Hunter rphu...@home.com
DaRkNeSS
DaRkNeSS
maybe we have to track posters of these pics?but i know that its kinda
slippy to track poster because we have to draw the line of what we can
or cannot tolerated..another discussion to come...same batchannel same
bat hour hehe:-)
DaRkNeSS
nostr...@uucp.org
>The group you are trying to compare to (a.f.n) was removed in 1995 (less
>than three hours after its creation) by the person whose name/system was
>used to create it (yep, a forgery). It was also removed at FOUR later dates
>and it shoud never have been here at all.
Quite a few more of the same sort are still here and have been around
for quite a while.
Probably lack the same *visibility*.
Ronald P. Hunter
Attempts ARE made to track the posters, but they can be in just about any
country of the world, post, and drop out of sight, and always (unless they have
a masochistic streak, or LIKE prison life) take steps to prevent tracing. Even
so, you read about busts almost every month. In these days of digital cameras,
and scanners, I am quite surprised there isn't a LOT more of this kind of thing
around. At least you CAN avoid seeing it, if you want to.
--
Ron Hunter rphu...@home.com
Ronald P. Hunter
>
> Don't worry about your English skills, as they are far better than my
> French.
>
> The internet is international, but different countries and even local
> governments have laws on porn and obscenity that are different. The
> kind of porn that you say that you like, pictures of 15 to 17
> year-olds having sex, is illegal where I live, whether the sex is
> consensual or not. Another question: Is there any way to tell a
> person's age just by looking at a picture?
>
> As Frank Durda stated in this thread already, the various governments
> have the resources and ability to track down anybody who posts clearly
> illegal pictures. If you see something that you think is illegal where
> you live, and hate it that much, complain to a law enforcement
> official in your country about it. If it really is illegal, and enough
> people like yourself complain, they will probably do something about
> it.
>
> Other than that, don't subscribe to groups or download from groups
> like alt.binaries.pictures.erotica.children or any of the dozens of
> groups like it if you don't want to view that garbage. Ignoring it
> will not make it go away, but it will probably make your experiences
> on usenet more enjoyable by not having to wade through a bunch of
> pictures that you say you hate.
>
> Regards,
>
> Paine
> pa...@REMOVETHISskuz.net
It's kinda like the old joke, I'm sure everyone has heard: "Get up on this
chair, and you can see EVERYTHING." Don't look, and you won't be offended.
--
Ron Hunter rphu...@home.com