Is ADF A Dead-End For Enterprise App Development

[rajendar.talatam]

HI All,

what is share for ADF being used as Enterprise Software Development currently  

Thanks

raj

[Florin Marcus]

Hi Rajendar,
ADF may not be the most hipster web framework today, 

but when it comes to large and heavy systems, there is no replacement for ADF at this point in terms of productivity.

Why do you think  Facebook is actively hiring ADF developers in London and Dublin?

https://www.facebook.com/careers/jobs/a0I1H00000LTd6UUAT

Thank you,

Florin

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[Shay Shmeltzer]

Are your worries revolving around the popularity of ADF or do you see any technical issues?

Assuming that you are asking about popularity...

I am not aware of a market survey that checked Oracle ADF usage.

While ADF is not the most commonly used Java based framework - there are many companies that rely on it to run their business.

(Including Oracle - Our Oracle SaaS offering is based on ADF).

You can look up "Oracle ADF" job posts on various job search sites (monster, indeed etc) and you'll find many companies who are hiring, including big consulting companies that do various ADF projects for other companies.

Shay

[Jeba Jothimoni]

Hi,

 

I agree. When it comes to Enterprise Application, ADF is still a good framework.

But what bothers us is that Oracle is not coming up with new components or features in ADF and they are focusing their energy in their cloud offerings and MAF.

 

Thanks,

 

Jeba Jothimoni,

 

 

From: <adf-met...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Florin Marcus <florin...@gmail.com>
Reply-To: "adf-met...@googlegroups.com" <adf-met...@googlegroups.com>
Date: Monday, November 27, 2017 at 11:53 AM
To: "adf-met...@googlegroups.com" <adf-met...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [ADF EMG] Is ADF A Dead-End For Enterprise App Development

 

Hi Rajendar,
ADF may not be the most hipster web framework today, 

but when it comes to large and heavy systems, there is no replacement for ADF at this point in terms of productivity.

 

Why do you think  Facebook is actively hiring ADF developers in London and Dublin?

 

https://www.facebook.com/careers/jobs/a0I1H00000LTd6UUAT

 

Thank you,

Florin

 

 

On Fri, Nov 24, 2017 at 6:02 PM, rajendar.talatam <rajendar...@gmail.com> wrote:

HI All,

 

what is share for ADF being used as Enterprise Software Development currently  

 

Thanks

raj

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[Shay Shmeltzer]

Oracle is definitely focusing on cloud functionality - and Oracle ADF actually benefits from this.

You can run your ADF apps in the Oracle Java Cloud Service.

You can simplify your ADF DevOps and lifecycle management with Developer Cloud Service (that has ADF and JDeveloper specific features).

example - Agile Development with Oracle Developer Cloud Service and JDeveloper 12.2.1

In addition while our latest 12.2.1.3 release was focused on fixing, stabilizing and enhancing existing features in ADF the other 12.2.1.* releases added a host of new features.

http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/developer-tools/jdev/documentation/12211-nf-3045488.html
http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/developer-tools/jdev/documentation/1213nf-2222743.html

Shay

[John Flack]

I've been job-hunting recently, and will agree that there are ADF jobs to be had.  In fact, one company was having some trouble finding some mid-level ADF developers - enough trouble that they ALMOST, but not quite, met my asking price.

As for Jeba's problem about new components and features, I agree.  But I've noticed that 12c, particularly release 2, is more compatible with other JSF component libraries.  So if ADF Faces doesn't have a component you need, you could check PrimeFaces or ICEFaces, and if there is a component you want there, it might work.  And it definitely works to use HTML5 pages.

[Susanto Paul]

I am trying to get a job with 6+ years ADF experience, but sorry to say that i am not able to get single interview scheduled since last 3 months.

Regards Paul

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[hasim syed]

One of my friend has same positive/negative experience and reason behind that is ADF has mature enough to get outsourced. 

[Łukasz VV.]

Yes it is, unfortunately. 

[Alejandro Tovar Lanz]

Currently working in a migration from ADF to different stack. This is the 3rd project I've worked where they are navigating away from ADF - according to the management:

- Too expensive.

- ADF implementation failed and/or too complicated. 

- ADF expensive to run. 

- ADF had problems under load.  

Of course only 1 week into the project was enough to realise that even though the Vendor is a big one (as usual) the ADF code lacks of experience. Mistakes have been made, those commonly made by java developers with no ADF Experience. ADF built in such way it basically black hole of resources where the app has to run in 16 managed servers to serve no more of 1000 concurrent users.... 

Project is now 4 years old - extremely large, and can not even passionate / activate correctly so they have made decision of migrate to the trendy new technologies. 

I don't think Oracle took care of their client after they sold them the products. They recommended the big vendor without making sure they will do a top notch job.

It is sad because I consider myself as an ADF Developer, however, I have to hear people complain and putting the framework down only because they got a poor implementation to the point of no return...

Alejandro

Alejandro Tovar Lanz

____________________

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[Alexis Lopez]

I agree that ADF is not the most hipster web framework today, but I've been working as independent consultant for ADF projects for the last 3 years and have always been busy. My clients are even planning to migrate old forms/reports apps to ADF in 2018 so there's more work to do :)

Maven integration is something I would like to see evolving in next versions of JDeveloper, but at least with what we have today we can create continuous integration environments for ADF projects that work pretty well. I have to say that I haven't tried 12.2.1.3 so maybe there are improvements in this area that I haven't discovered yet.

Regards,

--
Alexis López

http://www.acelopez.com

http://www.clojug.org/

[Karthik Nag S]

I think, I agree with Susanto Paul's job hunting experience atleast w.r.t Indian IT Job Market. We don't find much openings for ADF here in India compared to other J2EE framenworks, even though ADF is a very robust J2EE framework.   

Regards,

Karthik Nag S

[Alejandro Tovar Lanz]

I would stay out of 12 release of ADF - JDeveloper performance is horrendous. No matter how much tuning you do, is like 20 steps backwards in comparison to R1 or even R2 11G. 

Alejandro Tovar Lanz

____________________

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[Sudhakar M]

I agree that 12C ADF JDeveloper has lot of issues, specially the 12.2.1.3 has some basic bugs which makes it very difficult to use.I have posted some workarounds based on our product work.

http://adftraining.com/blog/work-around-for-bugs-in-jdeveloper-12-2-1-3-0

Having used and built applications on Oracle ADF from 2005, I would say that ADF has a definite advantage over other stacks I am using in parallel for our projects like nodejs, dot net etc.

But here are some points which I have to reiterate

1)  It is really a true Rapid Application Development Tool minus the Slow JDev (Hope we will see eclipse, eclipsing the JDeveloper for ADF development in future).

2)  ADF Essentials is a very good offering which will take out the licensing hassles and build enterprise applications for free.

3)  It really scales well provided you know what is what about the framework does.(The largest I had used is for 45000 users with around 7000 concurrent users)

Usual Complaint by our Developers:

Slow JDev (even in the source view after applying all tuning parameters as well)

Too much time taken to refresh the pending changes for GIT

Too many parameters to control the tuning part of the application

Usual Complaint by our Clients:

Licensing is very costly

It needs a super hardware to run with

Difficult to get ADF developers in the market or they are very costly

Thanks & Regards,
Sudhakar.

[Florin Marcus]

I have to start by saying that I think Oracle ADF is the most productive web framework when it comes to large, complex enterprise applications.

The slowest developer in our team will be twice as fast in implementing a very complex UI than anyone using any other web framework (apart maybe from .NET).

That being said, Alejandro has brought up few valuable points - is incredible to see the high number of ADF projects that get stuck somewhere down the line, usually after an enthusiastic start.

After actively being involved in few dozens of large ADF projects, my focus being performance tuning and ADF productivity, here is why I think this happens:

1. Oracle ADF - a complex framework to learn

Part of the problem is the way Oracle choosed to advertise ADF: an extremely quick and simple way to bulild web applications. In a way, that was true, building nice UI against an HR schema looked simple. But building a production quality application is a complex thing, no matter the framework. 

So, developers new to ADF are typically geting 60% of functionality quickly done, usually without having enough perspective over what ADF really does at runtime, of how Java connectivity works, because Oracle told them they don’t have to.

Other web frameworks require a significant amount of study before having your first screen ready.

I think “the ilusion of easy coding" without really understanding what you are doing is ironically one of the weaknesses of ADF.

In my opinion, ADF is the framework with a steep learning curve, which comes naturally, given the powerful features you get with it.

2. ADF Dev Team’s lack of involvement within the community. 

For a while, we were lucky to have Steve Muench actively involved with the community and he was tremendously helpful.

I have to say that ADF Product Management team did a fantastic job to promote and explain ADF functionality. But they can’t possibly replace the voice of framework authors. 

If you have a closer look at other major frameworks eg Spring, Hibernate, even APEX - you see the brains behind the code speaking at conferences, answering questions on forums.

Even using Oracle support is truly hard to pass by the first level and reach ADF Team. I am happy to say that Oracle JET is not doing the same mistakes, happy to see John "JB" Brock very much alive on forums.

3. ADF performance and scalability (not JDeveloper being slow).

First part of the blame goes to JDeveloper team and not to ADF team: Default settings that an Application Module instance comes with are ridiculous. You can't even support 5 concurrent users with those settings.

Secondly,  there is not a single official Oracle article that’s correct then it comes to ADF tunning. 

Why exactly, it was debated here. I need to say that ADF Product management team put a lot of effort into supporting us with changing the documentation, some improvement were done, but not enough. 

I bet that anyone from Oracle JDBC Team  would roll on the floor laughing if they would read this statement from ADF tuning guide:

“ By holding onto the JDBC connection, it allows each application module instance to keep its JDBC PreparedStatement objects cached and reusable across subsequent accesses by clients, thereby providing the best performance.” 

I am sure Oracle runs already plenty of  Oracle Fusion Apps systems. Why not checking with their team mates about how they tune their production envs? There is not a single ADF production system of a significant size I know of that runs according to above settings .

4. JDeveloper being slow.

We’ve had already 5 versions of JDeveloper 12c. Still slower than 11g, still freezing at times. JDeveloper was always behind ADF in terms of quality, but these days, more than ever.

Florin

  

Currently working in a migration from ADF to different stack. This is the 3rd project I've worked where they are navigating away from ADF - according to the management:

- Too expensive.

- ADF implementation failed and/or too complicated. 

- ADF expensive to run. 

- ADF had problems under load.  

Of course only 1 week into the project was enough to realise that even though the Vendor is a big one (as usual) the ADF code lacks of experience. Mistakes have been made, those commonly made by java developers with no ADF Experience. ADF built in such way it basically black hole of resources where the app has to run in 16 managed servers to serve no more of 1000 concurrent users.... 

Project is now 4 years old - extremely large, and can not even passionate / activate correctly so they have made decision of migrate to the trendy new technologies. 

I don't think Oracle took care of their client after they sold them the products. They recommended the big vendor without making sure they will do a top notch job.

It is sad because I consider myself as an ADF Developer, however, I have to hear people complain and putting the framework down only because they got a poor implementation to the point of no return...

[Amr Gawish]

Thanks Florin / Alejandro for your insights and I agree with all of them, but I believe there might be reasons outside of Oracle or ADF control, and that is the market shift.

The market is moving towards smaller applications / module footprint with functional design patterns and RESTful and asynchronous / Event based based approach everywhere, and with the rise of usage of Microservices architecture and containers, it even becomes more main stream.

Oracle is moving heavily towards the cloud and these technologies are making sense in their cloud portfolio and oracle already have a framework - Oracle JET - that works well with this architecture, so ADF is taking a more backseat now!

While there are some software like Oracle Sales Cloud that are using Oracle ADF at the moment, newer cloud application opted for JET instead for performance and maintainability.

Regards,

Amr

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[Sten Vesterli]

ADF is a very productive framework, but it seems effectively orphaned by Oracle. 

I like the new and very relevant features like the ability to publish ADF BC as REST services, but the JDeveloper 12c releases are slow, buggy and probably the worst software Oracle has shipped since Internet Application Server 1.0.0. The Oracle SaaS teams are using the last version where JDeveloper worked (11.1.1.7) so there seems to be no internal impetus to improve things.

What could save ADF would be for the Oracle  SaaS teams move to 12.2. That would make sense, as it would allow them to easily publish all the REST APIs the Oracle SaaS products are missing, but it's a chicken-and-egg situation: Unless JDev improves, the SaaS team won't switch. And unless the SaaS team switches, JDev won't improve. Since 12.2 has been out for more than a year with no sign of this switch, I assume the SaaS teams have thrown away JDev 12c in disgust and have decided their future lies with JET UIs on top of REST services written in any tool but ADF. 

Sten Vesterli

Author of Oracle ADF Survival Guide and other ADF books

[David Gress]

Replying to Florin -

In your item #3 about holding onto the JDBC connection... for best performance.

Since this is in the manual many will do it. What is the approach that you use? Release/return the connection after use?

Thanks!

[David Gress]

Sten - Is using Eclipse with the Oracle plug-in better that using JDev 12.2?

On Monday, November 27, 2017 at 11:46:33 AM UTC-5, rajendar.talatam wrote:

[Florin Marcus]

Hi David, 

That’s correct - aquire-and-releasing the connection after each request/response lifecycle is the only way you can scale a java web application, not only an ADF ones.

Hibernate/JPA uses this approach, IBatis uses it - along with every framework wrapper that works on top of JDBC. 

How this can even be a topic, I can’t understand. 

It looks like the ADF and JDBC Teams don’t have many lunches together.

Thanks,

Florin

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[John Flack]

I've used the Eclipse plug-in to develop ADF Essentials applications.  My opinion:

1. Eclipse is probably less buggy than JDeveloper, but I've rarely found JDeveloper so buggy as to be unusable - more annoying than show-stopping.
2. By the way, I prefer NetBeans to Eclipse, and I do like the user interface for JDeveloper better (when it works)
3. I like ADF BC a lot, and you have to use JPA - EclipseLink or Hibernate for your Model when you use Eclipse.  But JPA does work, and performs pretty well out of the box.
4. A bug (feature?) in 12c R2 ADF Essentials breaks basic JEE security - so you can deploy applications with JEE authentication to Oracle WebLogic and it works, but not to Glassfish or TomEE (I haven't tried other JEE servers).  The problem is that there is some initialization code that calls a method that requires WebLogic.  Kind-of defeats the purpose of ADF Essentials.
5. ADF Essentials works fine in standard JEE servers as long as you don't configure web.xml for authentication.
6. So you could use 12c R1 or 11g and everything works, but that limits you to Glassfish 3.1 not 4.

[Kevin Angus]

Hi all,

The other consequence with John's point 6 is that it restricts you in terms of future browser compatibility.

We are also not able to move from 12.1. Unfortunately 12.2 has a showstopper issue for us in that all drag and drop (plus a few other things) is disabled on touch screen laptops.

I suspect it thinks the device is a tablet or something but the result is our app is unusable.

A bug has been raised but no response on a fix yet, so until that happens we have to stick at 12.1 or consider another platform entirely longer term.

So, in respect of the topic's title and considering Sten's comments, sadly ADF is in danger of being a dead end for us at the moment.

Cheers,

Kevin

[Jose Rodríguez Aróstegui]

Hi,

Hi all,

1. A bug (feature?) in 12c R2 ADF Essentials breaks basic JEE security - so you can deploy applications with JEE authentication to Oracle WebLogic and it works, but not to Glassfish or TomEE (I haven't tried other JEE servers).  The problem is that there is some initialization code that calls a method that requires WebLogic.  Kind-of defeats the purpose of ADF Essentials.

With Jdeveloper 12.2.1.0.0 this bug/feature is not still present, it's in higher versions. My applications are built with ADF Essentials + Shiro security (thanks to Sten Vesterli book) and running in GF 4.1.1 currently without major issues.

Regards,

Jose

[John Flack]

By the way - I did publish a work-around for this problem at https://jcflack.blogspot.com/2017/03/a-work-around-for-security-in-adf.html.  I'm not crazy about this because it replaces one of Oracle's jar files for ADF Essentials with your own version.  But it does work.

[Mansi Rao]

But looking into the discussion, there are mixed responses that are limited to some parts of the world. Not everywhere in the world is ready to accept ADF as an alternative of J2EE framework. As one among us quoted the same, in India, there are not many opportunities for ADF developers. Even few of known trained candidates are trying to upgrade more of what they can to be in safe zone.

[Conor Lynch]

In practical terms JDeveloper 12c is very poor performance wise.

Even on a new PC, it hangs. It takes ages to run an application. It closes for no reason.

I contacted Oracle earlier this year for tips to speed it up on windows and I got a few tips which didn't make any real difference.

And the support team didn't really want to admit there was a problem.

This has been an issue since we started ADF more then a year ago.

We have to remote connect to a virtual Linux server to get it to run quickly enough to allow for any development flow whatsoever.

Here's hoping the next version of JDeveloper works.

Regards,

       Conor.

[John Flack]

We haven't had major performance problems with our ADF applications, except in one very specific operation.  Even that operation is probably our bug, not the framework, but it is a feature that is rarely used (and has a work-around), so it has been very low priority to diagnose and fix it.

As for JDev 12c, yes, we've noticed bugs, but haven't had any problems that made it unusable, just occasionally a pain. Most important for us - at least 8GB memory.  Still, you can also develop ADF applications with Eclipse if you find that it works better for you.  Just have to write JPA instead of ADF Business Objects.

[Shay Shmeltzer]

Quick question - are you using the regular Studio edition of JDev or are you using the version that comes with the SOA Suite installer?

What’s your client configuration in terms of CPU/RAM?

Shay

Shay Shmeltzer

Director of Product Management, Oracle Cloud Development Tools

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[Florin Marcus]

Conor talks about JDeveloper's performance and I agree with him entirely: JDeveloper 12c is much slower that JDeveloper 11g - to the point that it significantly affects developer's productivity. 

There were 6 JDeveloper 12c releases already - all of them below average.

Here is a list of fundamental problems that are not being fixed for years:

- JDeveloper gets very slow on large workspaces after using it for a certain amount of time.
- JDeveloper gets stuck when manually editing page definition files (you can see  StackOverFlowError -infinite loops-  on JDeveloper console).

- Re-deploying ADF libraries require Weblogic restart, not only re-running the application.

- Drag and drop a method action into a page generates the wrong reference - throws an error at runtime.

- BC Tester is buggy - it executes all VOs at startup, it hangs if any of the VOs queries fails to run. This is the worse since the strongest point of ADF was the ability to test your screen logic from BC tester.

- Using Shared (Application Scope) Application Modules to cache choice lists is no longer possible because someone guy messed up synchronization logic on shared VO instances. 

All these are reported to Oracle support for years, but we are hitting a wall out there. Based on my latest interactions with support I doubt there is anyone knowledgeable left in ADF Dev team.

The worst part is that Shay genuinely believes is a matter of RAM and CPU. Of course, JDeveloper runs fast when you use it for demo applications against HR schema. Shay, why don't you ask anyone from Fusion Apps Dev Team why they didn't upgrade to JDeveloper 12c yet? 

JDeveloper today acts as a drawback to a still excellent ADF framework. And nobody from Oracle seems to realize it.

[Srinivasan M]

On 12C jdev, we also faced stability issues, but got it stable on following this blog (https://www.techartifact.com/blogs/2017/05/performance-tuning-of-jdeveloper-12c.html) though would have liked the default jdev to have this without needing to change.

But more importantly, we are seeing  performance issues in  production after moving  to 12.2.1.2 from 11.1.1.7.1. After much analysis, we found Shared Application Module in 12C is badly performing under load. So we are seeing all our LOVs perform pathetic once we upgraded to 12C! Oracle is struggling to resolve this on SR#3-17311111261 (Bug#28111471 SHARED APP MODULE LOV).

[Torsten Kleiber]

Hi!

We already discussed this with the German ADF Community withh Shay, Frank and Duncan at least in the last two DOAG conferences. 

So I think they know about the problems long enough.

But it seems that JET, Chatbots and Cloud are more important to Oracle.

Kind regards

Torsten

[Florin Marcus]

Thank you Srinigenie for mentioning Bug#28111471 SHARED APP MODULE LOV (Shared Application Module performance on  JDev 12.2.1.2)

We have reported the same problem 7 months ago: Bug 27278915 : STUCK THREAD JAVA.UTIL.CONCURRENT.LOCKS.REENTRANTLOCK

but nobody in ADF Team seems to have the slightest idea how their latest changes produced this issue.

[Srinivasan M]

Florin - It does appear that Bug#27278915 to be the same issue as Bug#28111471 - atleast based on the stack trace. I have got my bug escalated to P1. Maybe you can raise the priority as well. Our production site drags really slow when the LOVs go into a thread lock!

For rest in ADF community, please hold off any migrations to versions beyond 12.2.1.2 until this performance issue is resolved by Oracle. We are having a tough time convincing our business users with this performance issue.

[dkfthig...@gmail.com]

Hi Everyone,

 

I don’t post much in this forum, but have to speak up now to say that we have been having the same types of issues Florin and the others list also.  I’ve seen issues with the shared AM’s, stopped using the AM tester as routinely as I once did, seen drag and drop just not do anything sometimes when dragging from the data control into the page source or from the component palette to the page, so have been building the tags by hand most times.

 

I’m running 12.2.1.3 on an i7 2.9Ghz Quad Core with 32Gb Ram and an SSD and have used all the performance tweaks that have been blogged about including turning of some very useful features like the auditing on larger files and code completion, but still get 1-2s delays in simple tasks like expanding the tree in the projects pane or just arrowing around the jsff page source or pagedef xml.

 

Deployment takes between 2-8 minutes with the embedded WLS and changes often don’t get reflected without a full restart or the app fails when you try to re-deploy, so the debug/fix cycle is a nightmare.  A few times a day the WLS startup will just stop working and restarting JDev will get it working again.

 

On average once or twice a day JDev will just stop responding and need to be killed.  This occurred in 11g also where it would run away with a memory leak and bring the computer to a halt, thankfully in 12c it doesn’t seem to do that, it just stops responding.

 

On some larger page fragments (1500+ lines) or pagedefs it’s preferable to open them in an external editor to make changes quickly.  We had some similar issues with 11g, but the 12c issues are even worse and are a significant impact on developer productivity.

 

We’ve seen other issues that would probably come back to bad practices on our part, but in 12c there have been a few cases where binding context has not been valid where it was in 11g and null pointer errors are occurring in Oracle code.  We’ve managed to fix these by re-ordering some of the application code or sharing pagedef’s between task activities where they were once separate page defs.  But we haven’t had the time to investigate root causes for those. 

 

There has been a major effort with the lov’s too, many of our query by example fields were straight edit fields allowing users to use wildcards, but the attributes they were based on had declarative lov’s defined for advanced search and for input.  The change to 12c meant those lov’s appeared in the column filters automatically, and there didn’t seem a way to force them to show as a simple input field whilst having the declarative lov in place, so we had to double up some fields with transients to use in the table output.

 

Also we have moved to 12.2.1.3 and have had issues where tasks workspaces that have gone from 11.1.1.9 to 12.2.1.2 won’t run in 12.2.1.3 due to LVTT class format errors, which don’t seem to happen if you migrate from 11.1.1.9 straight to 12.2.1.3.  Still trying to pin this one down, but it hasn’t been easy.

 

To be honest I haven’t had the time to really map out all the above as some of the others have, so can’t point to specific Oracle bugs and haven’t spent the time to check for SR’s etc.. so really just have been trying to get around issues and move on quickly.

 

Regards,

David Higgins

Tribal Group

[Karthik Nag S]

Yes, I agree with  Torsten OJET,  Chatbots and Cloud have become more important and ADF has taken a backseat. I have never come accross any new project since last one year that has been developed using ADF. Infact many projects running on ADF in some companies are looking into redeveloping the same with OJET or other javascript frameworks. I am scared as an ADF faces developer since I have not come accross any ADF job opening from past 18 months. Also I am curious if there will be any traction on ADF in coming OOW and ODTUG. 

Regards,

Karthik Nag S

--

[Conor Lynch]

Hi Shay,

I am using a Windows 10 PC, 64-bit with 4 Core's.

The processor is Intel Core i1-6700 CPU @ 3.4 GHz.

16 GB RAM.

JDeveloper version is currently at 12.2.1.3.

I would be grateful to hear any suggestions regarding speeding up the application.

We've tweaked performance and changed settings so the PC isn't filled with JDeveloper logs.

(A certain genius on this thread helped a lot with performance issues, so we had expert help).

I'd be delighted to try a new version of JDeveloper, with the performance settings changed made my default.

In the meantime I've taken an increased interest in ORDS and Oracle Jet, and I would also be grateful for links to Oracle articles which compare ADF to Jet.

Thanks for your time,

Conor.

[hadi wijaya]

Hi David Higgins,

Thanks for your comparation summary, its usefull for me to make a future step in most of my adf projects. 

Anyway, most of my ADF project done by using Jdev 11.1.1.2 and 11.1.1.7, and then nowadays several project needs to be upgrade to the newest adf technology, but in this forum lately, many disscussion told jdev 12c has causing lack of productivity for the developer team, so.. do you have an oppinion or suggestion related to development strategy for this? And what is jdev 12c version is the most stable release comparing to jdev 11.1.1.7? And do you have steps to do migration from old source code (adf 11.1.1.2) into 12c without messing the code?

Thanks.

Regards,

Hadi Wijaya

Metrodata Group

[Victor pacheco]

Hi

I am going to start a web project and i dont know which is better ADF or JET.

Which one is better decision? What do you recommed? I fear invest time in ADF and get into trouble.

Thank you?

Victor

--

[John Flack]

The answer, of course, is "it depends".  What are the skills of your developers?  What is your target application server?  What is your target database?  Do you have other applications that you need to communicate with? Are you a heavily Oracle-based shop?

And of course, the right answer for you may be neither - there are lots of web frameworks out there.

On Wednesday, July 11, 2018 at 10:52:05 AM UTC-4, victor.pacheco.garces wrote:

[Victor pacheco]

Hi

Thanks for reply.

Skills: Developers will be hiring depending on decision, Jet or Adf.

Application server: Any good java server, Glassfish, Tomacat or Weblogic.

Database: Oracle Database for sure.

Others applications: No need for communicate to others applications.

The application starts in 0, totally new application. Must be a web application lightweight, scalable, responsive, possibly if all go rigth mobile too.

I change my question: if you should must decide on this information, which technology do you choose?

Thank you.

--

[John Flack]

So you are going to hire a whole new team for this project.  You will find it easier (and maybe cheaper) to hire JavaScript developers than ADF developers.  However, few of them will have had any experience with Jet.  They WILL probably have had experience with Jet's underlying technologies like JQuery.

If you decide to go the ADF path, I strongly recommend that you find an ADF expert to lead your team.  You will have already read in this thread some of the problems that people are having with JDeveloper/ADF and the probability that Oracle support for ADF is waning.  ADF never gained a big following and Oracle is betting the company on the Cloud - and ADF development is not part of it.  Still, it won't go away quickly because Fusion and other Oracle applications like the Support portal was built with it.  And frankly, at least through 12.1.3, I have never found a more productive development environment.  I've seen users of JavaScript frameworks struggle to get working applications that I could have done in half the time with ADF.  But they weren't using Jet - I don't know much about Jet, so I don't know if it would have helped.  One thing about ADF - to get full benefit, you will be locked into Oracle WebLogic Server.  Other application servers are supported with ADF Essentials, but that will limit you somewhat.

If Oracle Database is definitely in your environment to stay, and if you can find good Oracle developers, you might want to consider APEX.  I've seen some very nice APEX applications, and have done a few APEX tutorials that convince me that it is pretty easy to use and productive. And APEX is certainly a popular track at user conferences like ODTUG KScope.

On Thursday, July 12, 2018 at 10:13:55 AM UTC-4, victor.pacheco.garces wrote:

Hi

Thanks for reply.

[Steve Muench]

John, I respectfully disagree with your statement that “ADF development is not part of it”.

As you hint at later in your mail, over 20,000 internal Oracle Applications developers build most of our cloud applications using Oracle ADF and even our cloud-based Visual Builder Cloud Service lets a developer create and maintain REST-accessible, ADF business objects with Oracle JET user interfaces.

ADF applications deploy easily to the Oracle Cloud using the Java Cloud Service. The same server-side Groovy scripting that a customer leverages to customize the ADF-based business objects in Oracle Sales Cloud is used to write server-side business logic for VBCS. The only difference is that the former uses Oracle Application Composer inside Oracle Sales Cloud, while the latter uses the VBCS design time. The underlying ADF technology for the business objects is the same.

I’ve forwarded on some of the complaints I’ve read in this thread about JDeveloper 12c to our management for increased visibility...

[Jean-Marc Desvaux]

Hello All,

Nice and reassuring to read Steve's post.

However, I must say that very few posts are backing ADF as a strategic choice for the future and all the poor experience most ADF shops are sharing since the last couple of years is showing more frustrations than anything else.

The focus on Jet is somehow breaking the ADF value as a complete framework, which is to me what makes ADF a unique and great solution. And this is really disappointing because ADF does not need much improvement to be a really great framework. But apart from database technologies it seems it's in Oracle DNA to kill anything good and start something new, and it's hard to understand...

Add to this the new or long due bugs associated with the unstable JDev environment, IDE and Runtime poorly configured at first install, thousands of warnings and errors in logs before starting anything are not helping in increasing confidence.

At General Construction, we have many ADF apps what we will maintain for sometime, maybe 4-5 years, but all new apps or any apps re-engineered are built with APEX.

Since version 5, APEX can do most of what we need to do in a simple and smart way. It's very stable, scalable and improving at each new release. 

Database (PL/SQL) coupled with good Javascript, JQuery knowledge is enough to build great web applications. 

 

I've been advocating ADF for the last 10 years but not anymore. 

Oracle must show clearly their investment in ADF and commitment to improve by releasing stable version of Jdev/ADF IDE and runtime.

Jean-Marc

On Thursday, July 12, 2018 at 9:21:14 PM UTC+4, Steve Muench wrote:

John, I respectfully disagree with your statement that “ADF development is not part of it”.

As you hint at later in your mail, over 20,000 internal Oracle Applications developers build most of our cloud applications using Oracle ADF and even our cloud-based Visual Builder Cloud Service lets a developer create and maintain REST-accessible, ADF business objects with Oracle JET user interfaces.

ADF applications deploy easily to the Oracle Cloud using the Java Cloud Service. The same server-side Groovy scripting that a customer leverages to customize the ADF-based business objects in Oracle Sales Cloud is used to write server-side business logic for VBCS. The only difference is that the former uses Oracle Application Composer inside Oracle Sales Cloud, while the latter uses the VBCS design time. The underlying ADF technology for the business objects is the same.

I’ve forwarded on some of the complaints I’ve read in this thread about JDeveloper 12c to our management for increased visibility...

On Thu, 12 Jul 2018 at 19:00, John Flack <JFlack@insightpolicyresearch.com> wrote:

So you are going to hire a whole new team for this project.  You will find it easier (and maybe cheaper) to hire JavaScript developers than ADF developers.  However, few of them will have had any experience with Jet.  They WILL probably have had experience with Jet's underlying technologies like JQuery.

If you decide to go the ADF path, I strongly recommend that you find an ADF expert to lead your team.  You will have already read in this thread some of the problems that people are having with JDeveloper/ADF and the probability that Oracle support for ADF is waning.  ADF never gained a big following and Oracle is betting the company on the Cloud - and ADF development is not part of it.  Still, it won't go away quickly because Fusion and other Oracle applications like the Support portal was built with it.  And frankly, at least through 12.1.3, I have never found a more productive development environment.  I've seen users of JavaScript frameworks struggle to get working applications that I could have done in half the time with ADF.  But they weren't using Jet - I don't know much about Jet, so I don't know if it would have helped.  One thing about ADF - to get full benefit, you will be locked into Oracle WebLogic Server.  Other application servers are supported with ADF Essentials, but that will limit you somewhat.

If Oracle Database is definitely in your environment to stay, and if you can find good Oracle developers, you might want to consider APEX.  I've seen some very nice APEX applications, and have done a few APEX tutorials that convince me that it is pretty easy to use and productive. And APEX is certainly a popular track at user conferences like ODTUG KScope.

On Thursday, July 12, 2018 at 10:13:55 AM UTC-4, victor.pacheco.garces wrote:

Hi

Thanks for reply.

Skills: Developers will be hiring depending on decision, Jet or Adf.

Application server: Any good java server, Glassfish, Tomacat or Weblogic.

Database: Oracle Database for sure.

Others applications: No need for communicate to others applications.

The application starts in 0, totally new application. Must be a web application lightweight, scalable, responsive, possibly if all go rigth mobile too.

I change my question: if you should must decide on this information, which technology do you choose?

Thank you.

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[Vik]

In today's world i will totally go building a JET if Oracle fanboy and definitely a good option else picking up angular matetial any day. 

Reach out to me if you want to see real life  Oracle applications built using angular material by vendors

Vik

[Petros Mikos]

Hello all,

I have also moved to APEX from ADF a couple of years ago.

It's amazing what you can do with a browser, not needing restarts, crashes, i7, SSD, tons of RAM, a Weblogic expert, a JAVA expert, etc.

Easier learnig curve coming from a Forms/Reports background.

Exceptional Oracle product.

[John Flack]

Have to agree with Jean-Marc that building your REST services with ADF Business Objects and the front end with a JS framework (like Angular) and Jet is not quite the same thing as building top to bottom ADF applications.  There are other alternatives for building your REST services.  For instance, in the Oracle stack, Oracle REST Data Services (ORDS) is very good and getting better.  But if you want to stop locking yourself into Oracle, you don't want to build REST services with either of these.  In the Java world, JAX-RS is not hard to use, easily developed with Eclipse or NetBeans (or InteliJ? - I've never used it) and runs on any JEE application server, not just Oracle database (ORDS) and not just WebLogic (ADF BC).  Or there is NodeJS - I'm not a fan, but it does work and is very popular.

[filip.h...@gmail.com]

Hi guys,

ADF as Enterprise Software Development framework is still the best.  Functionalities like taskflows, templating, reusable components, ADF BC, etc, make this framework the best on the market for real enterprise development.

I believe the challenge lies in the IDE to be used.  Like mentioned before, it is JDeveloper, certainly 12c, that makes working with ADF very troublesome.  I've seen customers using JRebel to counter it, which seems to be working very well.

If the Oracle development team would come out with a really stable and performed IDE, it will put ADF back on the map.

Off course, it all depends on the kind of application you are building.  If we are talking about a 50-screen application, then a lot of other frameworks and topologies are coming into the picture.

But if we are talking about real enterprise applications, with more then 100-screens, we've seen projects with more then 2000 view objects, then you need a framework like ADF.

I believe that there are certainly enough features and functionalities in the ADF framework to build the applications it is meant for, so focusing on the IDE and also trying to get the Oracle SaaS team on board for the next major release, would really boost the ADF community.

My 2 cents.

Filip Huysmans 

[Conor Lynch]

Hi there,

I didn't get an answer to my performance question above when I provided the specs of the PC I am using.

I'll put it another way.

Does anyone have a link to a list of all of the recommended settings and configurations that need to be applied to JDeveloper 12.2.1.3 to prevent it from:

 - Filling your PC with log files.

 - Hanging after you have made a change.

 - Crashing.

Any other general performance settings would be great also.

Thanks a lot,

Conor.

[Tshifhiwa Madima]

https://www.techartifact.com/blogs/2017/05/performance-tuning-of-jdeveloper-12c.html

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[Daniel Diaz]

Hi Rajendar I can assure that  it is not a dead-end for enterprise App Development.

 I worked in south and central american countries and I have been quite well, good Salaries and quite good oferts that can give you the possibility to pick and be comfortable in any enterprise.

Regardless in south and central america is not as popular as in USA, UK, india, Canada and other first world countries (There is more money to pay licenses) I have been pretty good and there is a strong community committed to improve the framework implementation and share tricks.

It is truth that the framework has to enhance some features and the practicality in the graphical field (they are working on it) but when it comes to heavy systems is one the best options among a lot of enterprise framework.

I worked with developers that came from Struts, Primefaces, and Grails among other frameworks and the reviews are good when it comes to compare ADF with the competition for large systems.

I know the creators are working in integration at some level with Oracle Jet, this can improved considerably some details.

I already did good looking and scalable systems with the framework, customers are happy.

On Monday, November 27, 2017 at 10:46:33 AM UTC-6, rajendar.talatam wrote:

HI All,

what is share for ADF being used as Enterprise Software Development currently  

Thanks

raj

[Karthik Nag S]

Hi All,

Is there any news or information about Jdeveloper/ADF's future and its roadmap from recent OOW 2018?

I just came across the below mentioned link which talks about ADF 19.

https://static.rainfocus.com/oracle/oow18/sess/1522968678673001pGtQ/PF/OracleADF_1540572685030001QUH6.pdf

Do you think ADF will come back to its life and regain its popularity with ADF 19? Please feel free to share your thoughts.

Looking forward to know your opinion :) 

Regards,

Karthik Nag S

--

[Daniel Diaz]

I was about to open a discussion about this release separately.

I think Oracle ADF has a steady and big enough community to keep on for some years.

Because of the following advantages (According to my personal Opinion):

1. BCComponents- 

    1.1. -Full integration and connection with the back-end with just one framework and one editor.

    1.2. - Stables components that handle the connection with the DB and minimize the amount of code you have to write.

 2. Declarative Components. That minimize the amount of code on the client layer

Now the major disadvantages comparing with other trends modern front-ends frameworks  (According to my personal opinion).

1. Client JSF Layer and components:  

    1.1. Comparing with other frameworks

     components the responsive design behaviour and the css style maintenance is harder.

   1.2.JSF Lifecycle components:  There are some components as af:panelAccordion among others that need to go to 

    the server and get back to show an info that is already in the cache, this feel slow for the user and create errors when there

   is latency in the network.

   1.3. Some times when there are several fragments (.jsff) with several unbounded task flow in a single page 

    the interaction between fragments through Contextual events to refresh UI components makes things that have 

     to be easy a little harder.

According to the presentation release they focusing on client side components and integration with Jet, so I see it promising.

These are going to help us to make better products, since they are going to have better responsive design behaviour and better fell to the user due to the fact that some components

are going  to work just in the cache of the front layer so the pages and more components are going to work smoothly.

[Srinivasan M]

https://blogs.oracle.com/shay/oracle-adf-or-oracle-jet-an-update

[Karthik Nag S]

Hi All,

Is anyone aware of any news or content about Oracle ADF in ongoing ODTUG Kscope19? Please share the links if possible.

Thanks in advance.

Regards,

Karthik Nag S

[Cüneyt Taşlı]

I am attending APEX session.

 

Please let me know if you’d like to get the access to the presentation of any  APEX session.

 

Regards,

 

Cuneyt Tasli
Chairman

GENEX Software Inc. 
Istanbul, Turkey

 

 

 

 

From: Cüneyt Yavuz Taşlı <cun...@geneks.com.tr>
Date: Tuesday, June 25, 2019 at 12:23
To: "adf-met...@googlegroups.com" <adf-met...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [ADF EMG] Re: Is ADF A Dead-End For Enterprise App Development

 

 

Hi,

 

I am at KSCOPE19. I am not aware of any ADF sessions.

 

Attached please find the session list.

 

 

Regards,

 

Cuneyt Tasli
Chairman

GENEX Software Inc. 
Istanbul, Turkey

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/adf-methodology/CAOm26EF2znG%3Du3HySbDy3SEvGMVafgNrzEv_zeD1N1TWUh2Omw%40mail.gmail.com.

For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Değerli Paydaşımız mesai saatleri dışında ve tatil günlerinde size daha hızlı destek verebilmemiz amacı ile 0212 277 16 77 nolu telefonumuzdan bize ulaşmanızı rica ediyoruz. Bu hat doğrudan Destek personelimize yönlendirilmiştir.

[Cüneyt Taşlı]

 

Hi,

 

I am at KSCOPE19. I am not aware of any ADF sessions.

 

Attached please find the session list.

 

 

Regards,

 

Cuneyt Tasli
Chairman

GENEX Software Inc. 
Istanbul, Turkey

 

 

 

 

 

From: <adf-met...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Karthik Nag S <karthik...@gmail.com>
Reply-To: "adf-met...@googlegroups.com" <adf-met...@googlegroups.com>
Date: Tuesday, June 25, 2019 at 10:09
To: "adf-met...@googlegroups.com" <adf-met...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [ADF EMG] Re: Is ADF A Dead-End For Enterprise App Development

 

Hi All,

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/adf-methodology/CAOm26EF2znG%3Du3HySbDy3SEvGMVafgNrzEv_zeD1N1TWUh2Omw%40mail.gmail.com.

For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[amir hosein khanof]

if I ware in ADF team in Oracle I would do 3 things...

1- more focust on ADF Rest ( easy as already huge task as been handled)

2- integrate the ADFRest with Jet ( like drang and drop from datacontrol)

3- for UI or view controller part (not model as it need huge task to be done)  would use another IDE's

so easy yeah! 

and ADF would last for more than 10 years....

some point to be considere here...

first ADF Rest performance is good enough as it is use ADF as stateless so not active passive so no complex cluster, so no huge RAM consumption...

second, drang and drop from JET to ADF BC Rest is easy to do, they already have its sample on JET Cookbook

third, they are using this senario in Oracle Cloud, the point is that why Oracle dont want to exhibits this scenario to public??? maybe it has conflict of interest with Oracle Cloud strategy...

what do you think?

it seems the ADF Product team in Oracle are take this in consideration but they are so busy with the cloud it is not good at all..

be vigilant ADF product team or at least support ADF Community, people like me would do this task for free if you support ! please! :D

--

Amir Khanof
Senior Oracle MiddleWare Developer

09122124673

[Steve Muench]

Amir, in short, I'm glad we are on the same page.

VBCS can be used to declaratively build Oracle JET UIs against any REST service, but it's particular great for building Oracle JET UIs against ADFBC REST services. If you have built Oracle ADFBC REST services using JDeveloper, like all of our Fusion Applications teams have, those REST services work great as the backend of a VBCS Oracle JET application. 

If you want to build a brand new application and don't want to manage the ADFBC REST service separately from JDeveloper, then you can also use VBCS' visual business object builder, and in the process you are also building ADF BC REST services, using a cloud-based, visual drag and drop designer surface and full support for ADF BC Groovy validation rules, triggers, and object functions to write your business logic. It's the exact same ADFBC REST Service supporting the backend.

There are a few things that you can do today using JDeveloper while building an ADFBC REST Service that you cannot accomplish using VBCS business object builder -- for example, creating business objects that extend other business objects using inheritance as well as overriding the Java code of the ADFBC framework itself -- but most things that can be accomplished declaratively in JDeveloper  IDE using ADFBC REST Services can be done with a few clicks from your browser in the VBCS business object editor.

These things have been possible to use together for the past couple of years.

I guess we need to do a better job of getting the word out about it...

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/adf-methodology/CADCeSJyoEyFOePwvm3XjGFJtPAUEHr%3DAgLJSwnzuBOZN3z9esg%40mail.gmail.com.

[Shay Shmeltzer]

Amir,

I believe Oracle is actually addressing your top 3:

1- more focust on ADF Rest ( easy as already huge task as been handled)

If you look at the new feature docs for ADF in the 12 releases you’ll see constant increase in the capabilities that the ADF BC REST capabilities offer.

https://docs.oracle.com/middleware/12213/adf/develop/consuming-adf-restful-web-services.htm#GUID-589F3905-5A8D-402D-B2D2-3BEEB2D7DDD4

2- integrate the ADFRest with Jet ( like drang and drop from datacontrol)

JET can consume any REST service including ADF’s - and as far as using this in a drag and drop approach 

Have a look at Visual Builder - it gives you this drag and drop experience for creating JET UI on top of ADF BC REST

See - Oracle JET UI on Top of Oracle ADF With Visual Builder

3- for UI or view controller part (not model as it need huge task to be done)  would use another IDE's

If your new UI is JET based then Visual Builder is that new IDE giving you the combined visual development with access to code directly.

Example - Developing Web Applications with Oracle Visual Builder

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/adf-methodology/CADCeSJyoEyFOePwvm3XjGFJtPAUEHr%3DAgLJSwnzuBOZN3z9esg%40mail.gmail.com.

[Karthik Nag S]

Hi All,

I found below mentioned optimistic article on ADF. 

 https://blogs.oracle.com/jdeveloperpm/oracle-adf-a-status-update  

Thank you Shay Shmeltzer and Andrejus Baranovskis.

Regards,

Karthik Nag S

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/adf-methodology/1D832764-BC7D-4E67-BC94-631AEA5C9222%40oracle.com.

[Nurlan Nurmanov]

Hi,

I am late to show, you have probably made your decision regarding what platform to choose. I have been thinking about the same topic for some time now, let me add my 2cents here.

1. Despite the issues listed here (which I attribute to the DNA of the Company), Oracle ADF is still a good product. It gives you a possibility to create products much faster compared to JPA/JS combination. I have done projects using Hibernate/JPA/ReactJS and compared to this stack my productivity with Oracle ADF is much better.

2. To be successful with Oracle ADF you have to have a strong team. ADF is easy to start and easy to make mistakes. Keep this in mind.

3. I agree the market share of ADF is decreasing, people now look at NodeJS/Spring Boot/JS etc technologies to build products. I guess the market is shrinking for all JSF/JSP type frameworks. The Oracle should be blamed here as well, as they do not listen to market demand, namely create a free version of Oracle ADF BC which can we deployed as a fat jar, similar to Spring Boot;

4. Regarding Oracle JET. I started one of my projects with Oracle JET and I must say that I was able to create a simple project easily, but then I had to integrate it with some third party components and I stuck. The problem Oracle JET is it lacks community support. Look at Github stars and compare it with React/Angular/Vue. This is Oracle's fault, as they could not create large community around it. Without community, you will be re-inventing the wheel.

On Thursday, July 12, 2018 at 8:13:55 PM UTC+6, victor.pacheco.garces wrote:

Hi

Thanks for reply.

Skills: Developers will be hiring depending on decision, Jet or Adf.

Application server: Any good java server, Glassfish, Tomacat or Weblogic.

Database: Oracle Database for sure.

Others applications: No need for communicate to others applications.

The application starts in 0, totally new application. Must be a web application lightweight, scalable, responsive, possibly if all go rigth mobile too.

I change my question: if you should must decide on this information, which technology do you choose?

Thank you.

On 07/12/2018 08:47 AM, John Flack wrote:

The answer, of course, is "it depends".  What are the skills of your developers?  What is your target application server?  What is your target database?  Do you have other applications that you need to communicate with? Are you a heavily Oracle-based shop?

And of course, the right answer for you may be neither - there are lots of web frameworks out there.

On Wednesday, July 11, 2018 at 10:52:05 AM UTC-4, victor.pacheco.garces wrote:

Hi

I am going to start a web project and i dont know which is better ADF or JET.

Which one is better decision? What do you recommed? I fear invest time in ADF and get into trouble.

Thank you?

Victor

   

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[amir hosein khanof]

Agreed, simply the Oracle Cloud business is the first priority.

On Tue, Jul 3, 2018 at 4:03 PM 'Torsten Kleiber' via ADF Enterprise Methodology Group <adf-met...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

Hi!

We already discussed this with the German ADF Community withh Shay, Frank and Duncan at least in the last two DOAG conferences. 

So I think they know about the problems long enough.

But it seems that JET, Chatbots and Cloud are more important to Oracle.

Kind regards

Torsten

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[Karthik Nag S]

Hi All,

Is anyone aware of news or announcements regarding Oracle ADF in OOW19? I did not get to see any article or blog w.r.t ADF in recent times.

Thnaks,

Karthik Nag S 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/adf-methodology/CADCeSJygSYT_BXd%3DGBP84Bp9EJt02reU51DeADj-%3DsDS0r5MYg%40mail.gmail.com.

[Shay Shmeltzer]

For the question about OOW and ADF - slides from the session are here:

https://events.rainfocus.com/widget/oracle/oow19/catalogcodeone19?search=ADF

And the new ADF is also out - Oracle JDeveloper and Oracle ADF 12.2.1.4 Now Available

Shay