How to use the JDev/ADF OTN Forums effectively - with Timo Hahn & John Stegeman

[Chris Muir]

EMG members who frequent the OTN Forums for JDeveloper and ADF (http://
bit.ly/yHchHO) will know of Timo Hahn & John Stegeman who have given
invaluable assistance to others in replying to thousands of JDev/ADF
questions.

On considering the OTN Forums, everyday people post questions to the
JDev/ADF forum seeking answers. Yet so many people forget to state
their JDeveloper version, give no explanation of their use case, or
provide reams and reams of code with an expectation somebody is going
to read it all. It seems to me, even though people want answers, they
write such poor questions in the first place that their efforts are
doomed to fail before they even get the first reply.

In this EMG post I wanted to ask both Timo & John if they could
provide tips n guidance on how to write good questions on the OTN
Forums, in order to get effective results, an answer! In turn, with
a slight twist for us who do frequent the forums, I'm hoping both
gentlemen can also give hints on writing good replies to others'
questions too. It takes two to tango.

Over to Timo & John, thanks for your time gentlemen (especially on the
OTN Forums too!).

[Timo Hahn]

First I like to thank Chris for the chance to participate in such a
thread. Hopefully it’ll help others to get the right solution to their
questions faster.

Over the last 7-8 years I’m a frequent user of the OTN JDeveloper and
ADF forum. The first six month I spend reading posts as I was to
novice to feel eligible to answer even the simplest question. I had
enough problems with the framework in the stage it was in back then
then to answer questions of other users.

I spend hours each day looking for answers in the documentation, which
wasn't that much back then, so I ended up finding them almost every
time in the forum. This his way I read many, many posts. I soon saw a
pattern of getting an answer to a problem quickly.
1. search the forum if your question has been asked before (and
answered). Don’t forget to set the range to search to longer then the
last 90 days!
2. search the forum again using Google, or use Google in the first
place.
3. tell the other users of the forum which JDeveloper version you use.
4. tell us what you try to do, help the others to get the big picture
5. give information about the technologies you use in your
application
6. ask your specific question, providing code snipplets and any other
information which you think helps to solve your problem.
7. make your problem reproducible using e.g. the HR schema we all
know

This is the recipe, sorry to say that it does not guarantee that you
get the right or any answer at all.

I can’t stress the first three points enough. Most question have been
asked and answered before. Look to find the answer before asking
again.
Without your JDeveloper version most questions can’t be answered
correctly. Even is you get an answer which solves your problem at the
time you get the answer, think about all the other users who may look
for the same answer at a later point in time.
Right now, June 2012 there are >5 different version of JDeveloper in
use and production. If you read an answer to a question in one or two
years, it’s nearly impossible to know for which version the solution
was given and if it’s usable for you.
You’ll spend time and time to filter all the information and find out
what is useful for you and your problem. Most often you’ll need to ask
follow up questions to find out what answer solves your problem. This
does not only cost you time, but it costs all the forum users time
too.

Here are some things which you should avoid when not explicitly ask
for:
1. non formatted code java or UI pages. Read the FAQ on how to format
code to make it readable.
2. Long code listings which are not even commented. Most of the time
we only need to see a method.
3. Whole jsf, jsff or jspx pages.

After giving my impression I like to give you another really helpful
link discussing ‘How To Ask Questions The Smart Way’

If you have similar experience, or an other view ot helpful hint , I
like to hear from you.


Timo

[Simon Lessard]

Hi Timo and Chris,

This is a great topic idea and I'll most likely add my own grain of salt to it when I have a bit more time. For now though, I have a nice addition to 

Here are some things which you should avoid when not explicitly ask for:
1. non formatted code java or UI pages. Read the FAQ on how to format code to make it readable. 

I cannot agree more on that point. The only thing I wanted to add to it is that you can achieve that using [code] tag which seem to be unknown to some users. Personally, even if I don't answer much anymore, this used to be a showstopper while I was scanning the posts to determine if I was to answer or not. Given that I could not spend that much time answering people, I just didn't have the time to either try to read unformatted code or paste it in an IDE to reformat it given my schedule and the sheer amount of topics.

Regards,

~ Simon

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[John Flack]

Love the idea of doing this thread - thanks Timo and John - and also thank you for the value your forum answers have given me over the past few years.
One thing I've learned is that in the process of formulating a good forum question, you will be forced to think more clearly about the question yourself.  Sometimes I'm in the middle of writing my question, and suddenly, the answer comes to me because I've restated the problem in terms an outsider can understand.
Also, sometimes, an answer I get is wrong, but leads me to the right answer - I always reward that with a "Helpful", AND I always say "Hey, I got it!  Here's the right answer."  As an occasional answerer of questions, I hate it when I don't get feedback - Did I help you?  Did you find a better answer?  Did you just lose interest?

[Jan Vervecken]

hi

- about "One thing I've learned is that in the process of formulating a good forum question, you will be forced to think more clearly about the question yourself.  Sometimes I'm in the middle of writing my question, and suddenly, the answer comes to me because I've restated the problem in terms an outsider can understand."

-- Something I've experienced multiple times and I would highly recommend.

regards
Jan Vervecken

[Chad Thompson]

On Tuesday, June 12, 2012 at 4:39 AM, Simon Lessard wrote:

Here are some things which you should avoid when not explicitly ask for:
1. non formatted code java or UI pages. Read the FAQ on how to format code to make it readable. 

I cannot agree more on that point. The only thing I wanted to add to it is that you can achieve that using [code] tag which seem to be unknown to some users.

Agreed here - it's pretty difficult to answer a question when the question is poorly stated and only has a code listing.  (I'm seeing an exception - here's my JSFF file!)

One thing I also added to that survey about improving the forums a few weeks ago - sometimes it's helpful for me to actually see (esp. when someone is describing a 'visual' technique) what someone is trying to communicate:  being able to embed images would be a helpful thing to add to the forums.  

 

Personally, even if I don't answer much anymore, this used to be a showstopper while I was scanning the posts to determine if I was to answer or not. Given that I could not spend that much time answering people, I just didn't have the time to either try to read unformatted code or paste it in an IDE to reformat it given my schedule and the sheer amount of topics.

That's the other thing that needs to be made clear on the forums:  relying on the forums can get you a lot of constructive feedback, but it's not a substitute for Oracle Support.  If you really, really need to know something quickly (as many forum posters apparently do), the forums aren't always the best place to be your sole source of help - sometimes you need to file a Service Request with Oracle.

- Chad

-- 
Chad Thompson 
chad_t...@mac.com

[Birol Bora]

4) Did you read Fusion Developer Guide?
5) Did you read Web User Interface Developer's Guide?
6) Did you look FOD demo




2012/6/12 Zeeshan Baig <shan...@gmail.com>:
> How about making standard questionnaire If someone starts a new thread the
> standard sections could appears automatically or they can copy from the
> sticky thread.
>
> e.g.
>
> 1) Which Version of JDeveloper are you using?
>
> 2) Is problem repeatable using HR schema?
>
> 3) Do you have any sample code, If Yes paste below.
>
> ..and so on
>
> Zeeshan Baig
>
> www.baigzeeshan.com

[Chris Muir]

Indeed if you've looked to the OTN JDev forum you will see a sticky thread " Please read this before you post" which includes relevant things to do before posting: https://forums.oracle.com/forums/ann.jspa?annID=56

We can update that sticky thread with your suggestions and everyone can actively point to that thread (and this one too).

However where I see such suggestions fail is the enforcement of these conditions.  What tends to happen on the forum is somebody will post a "none compliant" question, somebody like Timo replies "please state your JDev version (etc)", then somebody else follows up with a reply with answers to the original question.  As such the original poster still gets an answer even though they're not met the conditions, and thus they have no reason to improve their questions.

(Reminds me of my kids, the first one gets a "no" from Mum when asking for something, then I stupidly give a "yes" and they know Dad's a soft touch ;-)

It's a shame the Jive forums (which OTN Forums runs on) doesn't have the ability to have a point scoring system for "good" posters, it's scoring system is focused on the person who provides the answer.

Maybe as a community you could look to identifying the top 5 best questions each week and rewarding the posters somehow?  Kudos on the thread, a blog post, or if you give us a list maybe we could write something into the upcoming ADF newsletter (...note the focus on a community driven effort here nudge-nudge-hint-hint).

CM.

[Chris Muir]

"So The extract of this discussion should be posted as an announcement in the OTN forum as a must read for new users."

I intend to publicize this thread more widely once concluded.

CM.

On 13/06/12 9:40 AM, Vinod Krishnan wrote:

Hi,

This is a good initiative. But most of the users who ask questions in OTN forums are not subscribed to this group.
So The extract of this discussion should be posted as an announcement in the OTN forum as a must read for new users.

People who want's an immediate resolution will be in a hurry to solve their problem and wouldn't mind to update the post after finding a solution.

There should be a common practice to update the forum even if they find the solution by themselves which will help others in the future.

Thanks,
Vinod Krishnan

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[John Stegeman]

Chris,

Thanks for the opportunity to share what I’ve learned over the years and my apologies for the delay in responding on the thread. Timo and others have already covered a lot of the items that I would have mentioned, so I’ll not repeat those items unless I have something to amplify.

1.       Even though I said I wasn’t going to repeat, I’ll use the first point to repeat: search first! Having said that, the OTN Forum search capability leaves a LOT to be desired, so I usually use Google to perform the search – this also has the benefit of searching the many good ADF-related blogs that are out there. If you know that the topic was covered on the forums, you can always add “site:forums.oracle.com” to your Google search to use Google to search the forums.

2.       If you are actively working with ADF, spend some time each day/week to read the forum. By doing so, you’ll accomplish a few things:

a.       You’ll learn about ADF by seeing what others are doing/struggling with.

b.      You’ll “prime your brain” so that when you run into a problem, you may recall “oh, I seem to remember someone else who had a similar issue on OTN – let me search the forum.”

3.       When you post your question, tell the forum what you are trying to accomplish in addition to how you may be attempting to accomplish it. In other words, tell us about your problem, not just about your failed solution. I have seen so many threads go off tangentially and try to make a failed solution work, but when the real problem (usually called the “use case”) surfaces, we find out that the attempted solution was absolutely the wrong way to solve the problem. I’m reminded of this post How do I inflate a bicycle tire with a potato? - The Old New Thing - Site Home - MSDN Blogs. On the flip side, if you are answering questions on OTN and you see someone following this pattern, one of the best things you can do is to *NOT* answer the question until you have all the information. You’ll save both your time and the poster’s time if you do so.

4.       Need more than one sentence help me ASAP PLZ! (questions like this don’t work).

5.       As a supplement to point #4 – spend some time formulating your question and thinking about how the readers of the forum will (or will not) be able to understand your problem. As Tom Kyte likes to say: ask the question so that your mother would be able to understand it (assuming your mother is not an IT professional). Remember that you have been working on your problem for some time and are intimately familiar with all of the details – we (the readers of your question) are not. As John Flack said earlier – it’s even possible that when you think clearly about your problem and formulate a clear test case, you’ll discover the solution on your own.

6.       Read the documentation. Yes, I know we are all IT pros and don’t need to read the documentation, but it’s pretty darn good. At least scan the Fusion Developer’s Guide for ADF Developers from cover to cover so that you are aware of the topics discussed, and you can then read in more detail when you need to. Make a point of doing this on a regular basis – I regularly find new snippets in there that I skimmed over before, but now make sense to me, given my experience.

7.       If you’re getting an error, tell us what the error is (stack traces/log messages/etc). If I had one OTN forum point for ever y time that someone posted I did something and got an error without telling us so much as the error message...... oh wait, I probably do have that many OTN forum points. If you see yourself posting any of the following sentences without providing more detail, you’re guilty of this:

a.       “It doesn’t work”

b.      “I got an error”

8.        

[John Stegeman]

whoops, sorry for the truncated post above.

I hope this is helpful!

[Timo Hahn]

Well, I din't expect that much feedback in this short time :) Glad
this theme got this much attention.
I like to comment on some answers.

Chad T. wrote that he like the ability to add images to threads. I'm
with you that images sometimes are helpful to answer a question. I
remember we had this feature some time back (at the time we lost the
red bullet for threads we already visited). It was not that impressive
as some 'users' started to put images on thread which where more spam
then helpful. Oracle pulled this feature fast, and from my point of
view this was the right decision. I often work on the train where the
connection isn't capable of transferring images. Images would make
this nearly impossible. Today it's not a real problem as the
questioner can easily put images onto a file sharing host where we can
decide to look at them or not.

I think Chris M. has a very good point when he points out that we
can't archive anything if answers are given without information about
the surroundings. True, some questions can be answered without much
background. I'm giving such answers too, but nevertheless we should
remind the questioner that he should at least tell us his JDev version
and a use case.

John F. and John S. pointed out that thinking about how to ask a
question sometimes gives you the answer. This is so true. Add point 5
of John's post (try to give a understandable use case) and even more
questions are answered right away.

Timo

[Steven Davelaar]

What about creating a "JDev forum question template" which names all sections that typically should be filled in with a short description?
Something like we have in bug db.

People using that template should then get priority from the forum monitor volunteers.

Steven.

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[missgeburt]

I think Antonis idea is great!
It could be integrated in Productivity Center.

The only problem with publishing issues with a few clicks is that developers will be tempted to raise too much threads for this and that..
They might also not search whether their issue is already resolved in the OTN.

On Fri, Jun 15, 2012 at 10:35 AM, Antonis Antoniou <antonis....@eproseed.com> wrote:

May i suggest something?
Why not give users the ability to create a new thread via JDeveloper? This way we can collect usefull informaiton such as JDev version, extentions, OS, configuration files, etc...
Antonis

--

[Chris Muir]

I think there is an ER in the works for this, I'll check.

However I do think we'll just get the opposite problem, lots of threads, lots of details, no description what is wrong but a message "why doesnt it work."

I've often thought an "ADF" Stackoverflow with gamification stats for posters & replyers would work well as the scoring & voting works for both parties in a thread.

Yet then we move people away from the huge amount of collateral on the OTN Forums & split the community. This is something I've always been mindful with the ADF EMG, I don't want it to compete with the OTN Forums. Besides let's face it, finding anything on the Internet is already a pain in the butt because everything is decentralized,it helps immensely when there's a 1 stop shop for finding info on a topic.

CM.

[Mark Robinson]

I completely agree.  StackOverflow provides a much better interface for dealing with questions than most forums do.  It is also aggressively moderated to keep comment quality high.

I like the way that questions are tagged in SO versus the forum approach.  On OTN, something is in 1 forum with some annotation tag.  On SO, there is 1 "forum" but everything is tagged and you filter what tags you want to watch.  So I can tag a question as Java, ADF Faces, Oracle10g and have it seen by everyone who is watching those tags.  This is a better approach, I don't know if you've been the top of OTN forums lately, there must be 100+ individual forums and you can't really search through the forum names in any way.

Additionally, searching OTN (via Google) is really odd.  I've noticed that often I will get a result from a page where the forum text is in Japanese(or another Asian dialect) but the question/reply text will be in English.  Shouldn't the forum language be derived from my browser locale rather than the URL I go to?


Mark

On Mon, Jun 18, 2012 at 6:00 AM, Hyangelo <hyan...@gmail.com> wrote:

Yes! A thousand times, yes! I find that the Stackoverflow format is much better at keeping the quality of the Q&A high. I think it is the combination of gamification and community moderation. 

I try my best to answer from time to time the occasional questions that popup in the [oracle-adf] tag. Although sadly, the oracle-adf tag is a ghost town of unanswered question most of the time. I recognize the advantage of a centralized place for information but the OTN forums is IMO ill equipped and not to mention obsolete. When was the last time that there was an effort to improve the OTN Forums experience? Stackoverflow has a superb and active development team behind constantly thinking of better ways to improve the system. I don't see why the Oracle should insist that the ADF developer community not get to pick the primary venue for Q&A support. Does OTN Forums provide a way to filter questions by category(e.g. by version, by BC, Controller or View)? No. Does OTN Forums make it easy to find the top/most popular(and therefore most common) issues? No. Does OTN Forums provide a way to get rid(or at least minimize) duplicate questions? No. Does OTN Forums provide a way for the community to mark an answer as incorrect/not helpful/misleading? No. I could go on but you probably get the point.

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[John Stegeman]

The SO discussion is getting a bit off-topic - asking a good question is the same no matter what forum software you use.

 

Unfortunately, with OTN - we gots what we gots. In other words, SO may be nice, but OTN is what we have. We do know that Oracle is working on something new for the forums, but apart from that, we haven't much information on what that might entail.

John 

[Chris Muir]

Unfortunately no. But Frank Nimphius in the ADF Code Corner does take
the chance to summarize such findings:
http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/developer-tools/adf/learnmore/index-101235.html

CM.

On 3 July 2012 12:44, Saif Kamaal <saifk...@gmail.com> wrote:
> All,
>
> This will be slightly off the topic but can we have the feature to download
> the forum question/answers which have been marked as "Answered" ?
>
> thanks
> Kamaal