Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Spousal/Partner Cooperation

[Sandra Dodd]

-=-
So what do you do if your spouse/partner "goes along" with the idea of
unschooling in theory, but won't do any research about it and clearly
doesn't "get it"? Do you have to regurgitate everything you read
and/or hear and try to put it in a way that he/she may understand?
That idea sounds overwhelming to me, on top of taking care of a 3.5yo &
a 1.5 yo. -=-

Gradually show him when better ways work. Keep doing what you're
doing and talk sometimes about why you're doing it. When you want to
regurgitate what you read, try to do a 25-words-or-less version.

I used to do the count to three thing when Kirby and Marty were
little, but it's about control. You might ask him on the side WHY he
counts to three. He probably hasn't really thought about it, but is
just doing it.

You could say to the kids, too, things like "I'm sorry Daddy counted
to three," or just try another way right then as it's happening to
get them to do the whatever-it-is he wants them to do, and turn to
him and say "Done!" (happily somehow if/when you can).

Keith took longer than I did, but he passed me at some point, so that
he worries less (after he got it) than I do.

-=-When they do things like say, "Don't climb up the slide - you're
going
to smash your nose.", or "If you hold your Barbie's shoe while riding
in your car seat, you will lose it.", or "That's enough - don't get
another scoop of mashed potatoes until you've finished the one I gave
you". -=-

You might ask him to say only things that are clearly true, because
you want to help the kids learn to be clear and careful.
You might ask him to qualify his statements so the kids will learn to
qualify theirs.

"I'm afraid if you climb up the slide you'll get hurt."
That would be a true statement.
"You will smash your nose" is almost a curse. And it's an ugly thing
to say.
If it's rules instead of principles, maybe mention to him that the
slide is to play on, and if they're not in other people's way, why
should they limit themselves to only going down? Ask him to climb up
WITH the kid, to help her.

-=-"If you hold your Barbie's shoe while riding
in your car seat, you will lose it."-=-

What, lose it in the whole universe, or drop it in the car?
Couldn't he help her "find it" then (knowing that it has gone
somewhere downward from the car seat)?
"I'm afraid you might lose the shoe."
That's a true statement.
And again, it's about him. <g> It's about his fear or his frustration
or his need to control, rather than about Barbie or her shoe.

Maybe talk to him about the real value of a scoop of mashed
potatoes. They're not very expensive. Maybe hers were cold. Maybe
it's hard for her to get a good scoop from a small pile. Maybe he
could eat from the little pile because he's better with utensils, and
let her eat from the full scoops. They could share. Maybe her
little pile was cold and she wanted warm potatoes.

Maybe something here would help:
http://sandradodd.com/rules

Sandra

[mamaa...@yahoo.com]

What changes his mind about any subject? Actually, there's two
questions: what does he think will change his methods and what do you
think will work?

For some people, web sites won't impress them, but a book might.

For my dh, reading about wouldn't convince him that it will work. He's
seen my gentle approach work and eventually tried it with increasing
frequency.

Some might want to be given suggestions or help in the moment, e.g.,
honey, I'm not that worried about the Barbie shoe in the car, because
I'm sure we could find it if it drops. Or are you worried that we won't
be able to pick it up while driving? That might be a problem. I'm more
worried about it losing it in the store...

Other people are more sensitive to their parenting being "corrected" in
the moment. You could later bring up some alternatives to counting to
three.

I tend to talk about my experiences and how much I used to assume
control was needed but then Look What Happened!!! Those unschooling
ideas work and it's like Soooo Cooool. (If I had Photoshop, I'd make a
picture of me in an unschooling cheerleader's outfit.)

Then there's talking about how he would have felt if his dad had been
patient instead of counting to three...

What is it with people not wanting kids to climb up slides?? I realize
it could be a problem if you've got a bunch of traffic coming down, but
I've never seen the problem when it's only one child. I think I'd ask
dh why he thinks it's dangerous, but I'd have a bit of a struggle not
to roll my eyes...

Eye rolling should be kept to a minimum and replaced with deep breaths!
Quiet deep breaths, not "here I am sighing because I feel the need to
correct you" breaths. ;-)

--aj

[Hm...@aol.com]

mamaa...@yahoo.com writes:

<<Then there's talking about how he would have felt if his dad had been
patient instead of counting to three...>>

**************************************************************************

 

Childhood experiences are a good spring board. I have used that thought process to explain things to Dh like.... "Honey, I know your childhood wasn't wonderful (hell neither was mine)and I know your dad was unkind to you and your siblings. Is it possible when you raise your voice you are forgetting that your dad often followed that with spankings? Because we don't parent as he did I don't think we should follow that path"

 Or whatever the topic finishing food, toys put away, tv and so on.

 

Also I have said to Dh "If I came in here and demanded that you (add task here) would you feel happy to do it?"

 

Laura

[Hm...@aol.com]

 

<<<So what do you do if your spouse/partner "goes along" with the idea of
unschooling in theory, but won't do any research about it and clearly
doesn't "get it"?  Do you have to regurgitate everything you read
and/or hear and try to put it in a way that he/she may understand?
That idea sounds overwhelming to me, on top of taking care of a 3.5yo &
a 1.5 yo. >>

****************************************************************

If you've done the research find the key pieces that helped you understand. Print a post every once in a while that may help him to see things better.

 

I laugh now thinking about it.... I have read several Sandra Dodd posts (and others)to DH over the years. Even he knew when I geeked out meeting Sandra in Peabody who she was. At that point real to him and not some paper I kept cramming in his face. Yes , I insisted (a few times) that he read something or take the time for me to read it to him bc it was important to me that he get it. If I didn't see that the light went on I took a situation in our house and helped him to understand that in Sandra's (direct and to the point) example it was something he was doing and offered other ways to deal with whatever the trigger was for him. He's a patient man when it comes to me being direct and those posts paid off even if he wasn't all that open to hearing them then:)

 

Just as if you would help him with anything else give him the information he needs and leave the rest that doesn't matter or apply out.

 

Your children are also quite small. You could try showing him by example that there is another way. 

Laura

[Sandra Dodd]

-=-Your children are also quite small. You could try showing him by example that there is another way.-=-

Right.  Two things about that--they will forget most of what's happening to them now.  Sad but true. (and in some cases, a relief, and true)

And as they get older he will be able to look to THEM for proof that these ideas of yours aren't crazy.

With learning situations, definitely, it helps to have your OWN family stories to tell after a while, and if you tell them in public (places like this) you can copy him at work. <g>  And your stories will start to help OTHER families, who will show them around, and that's how it works best.

Don't think that just because he doesn't get it today doesn't mean he won't be a lot further along a year from now, and five.

For a hyper-jump, try going to a conference where he can meet teens who've been unschooled since they were little.

Sandra

[Sandra Dodd]

-=- I can ask him

"What time do we need to leave to get to the

party on time?" and his response will likely be

something like "In the afternoon", and will not

have thought that telling me that I was expected

to bring a potluck dish would be necessary until

we're walking out the door, without even time to

stop and buy one without being quite late

(something I really don't like to do). -=-

But really, what's the big deal?  

I know it's just an example, but let's pretend the example is the whole problem.

With you knowing that he might not have told you everything, you could ask him more specific questions.  Why make him do all that thinking if you know he doesn't think that way?

You could ask when the party ends.  How long does he want to be there?  Do you need to be there at the beginning or not?  Are you supposed to bring anything?   

But if he says, last minute, that you were supposed to bring something, and if you stop to buy something and that makes you late, so what?

Unless it's your party and you're responsible for set-up, or it's a surprise party and you need to be there early, you can show up late.  Late and composed is better than early/on time and frazzled.  Late and frazzled isn't cool either.   Party invitations never say "Come frazzled!"

A potluck dish isn't "necessary."  If they live way out in the country it might be a problem, but if they're in town, you could go to the party, look around, and see what's been forgotten or is likely to run out, and go and buy some of that.  Plastic cups.  Buns.  Soda.

"What time do we need to leave to get to the party on time" seems a very, very vague question to me.

-=- If I

asked him to let me know sooner next time, he'd

roll his eyes, grumble something like "What's the

big deal?"

-=-

Ask him sooner.  

-=-I can say "Please trim the bottom two limbs off

of that tree", and he'd cut the whole thing down

(just an example - he loves trees almost as much

as I do), not ever seeing the difference in my

request and his actions. -=-

Is there some reason you don't trim those limbs yourself?

Or some reason you don't go out there when they're being trimmed and discuss it while you're both out there?

It sounds like a test he had to take all alone, and he failed.  Again.

-=-From his POV, he can't do anything right enough to please me,-=-

If your child felt that way, would you change?

Is getting your way, or waiting for him to communicate to your satisfaction, worth the risk of a broken home?

-=-In order for me to let go more, be less concerned

about these things, I have to take on more

responsibilities (do more things myself to make

sure I like the outcome), and I just don't think

I have it in me at this point.  -=-

What if...

What if there was a big flood at your house, or your husband lost his job, or your house caught fire?  

Wouldn't some things seem much, much less important then?

Can you just let those things seem much less important anyway, because your marriage is catching fire?

If a tree doesn't get trimmed or you're late to a party, what's the big deal?

-=-but he just doesn't

seem to want to go there.  Trying to explain it

all without seeming controlling or condescending

is exhausting, like walking on eggshells.

-=-

Then don't.  They're not school age.  It's too early to commit to unschooling.  Let it slide and move toward it gradually, together.

-=-Honestly, I find myself wondering lately if it'd

be easier to be a single parent.  Then I'd have

to deal with the issues only on a part-time

basis.  I know that's bogus, but I find myself

thinking about it a lot. -=-

It's not bogus, it's delusional.  There would be NO unschooling.  You would deal with issues on a full-time basis, with no power of persuasion over the other party or his new wife and not much over your eventual boyfriend or husband.

I thought you LIKED your kids.

-=-So what do you do when your marital relationship

becomes questionable and you don't have the money

for counseling and you have young kids and no

trusted babysitter? -=-

Start being really nice to your husband and letting go of the behaviors you have that are making him resist you.

-=-Do you just ride it out,

keep trying until either it works or someone

gives in and just goes along for the sake of

peace?-=-

YOU give in and go along for the sake of peace.

Make HIS life happy and joyful and good.

If you can't do that for your husband,  you probably can't do it for your kids.

-=- I guess I know the answer to that - you

work harder to make the communication clearer,

more effective, and mutually agreeable.  But I

haven't figured out how to do that.

-=-

You seem to want to work harder to make him understand what you want him to do. 

Better to stop thinking he will do what you want him to do.

Change directions and routines.  Shake up your schedule and your patterns.  

-=-  Namaste.-=-

Are you seeing your husband clearly?  The goodness in him?  

Do you see the parts of  your children that are like your husband?

Do you see the parts of your husband that are like your children?

Every man has the little boy still in him.  Be nice to that little boy.

-=-He and I had very different

upbringings, him having been an only child until

he was in his 20s and me having an older brother

& a younger sister, and I often think that has a

lot to do with his communication problems (not

having to concern himself much with others).  He

just doesn't see them as problems.

-=-

If it's not a problem for him, you seem determined to make it a problem.  Are you jealous that he grew up in a way you wish you  had?  (Maybe, maybe not.)  Do you have voices and messages inside you that justified what went on with and between you and siblings that make you feel your husband had it too easy?  

More than all, did you by chance have an alcoholic parent and your husband didn't?

That would be the easiest problem to address. 

If not, never mind that.

You can be your husband's wife instead of wanting him to meet some criteria you seem to have pre-formed about how he should be.  

You could find cool things to appreciate.  

Maybe it wasn't this list I put this on, but here's something I wrote for friends who got married a little while back:

Don't aim for 50/50. 

If 50% is right, then 49% is wrong, and 65% would be something get angry about.

 

If you both aim for more than half, you'll meet around the middle, around half the time.  If you want the other person to stick around, "around" is the goal.

Sandra

[Betsy Hill]

**

That's a tough question. How can we be a team if
we can't communicate? **

Deborah Tannen has written several books about communication that contain some interesting insights. The one about male-female communication differences is entitled, _You Just Don't Understand_. (I don't know if you can hold a book conveniently while you are nursing, but I can get some of her books on audiotape from my library.)

Betsy

[Rob Marcoccia]

This book was on a required reading list for one of my college
courses and I have to say that even though I don't remember much
about it, I remember it was the first thing that actually made me
think about communication from different points of view. It was very
big for me at the time (definitely an Aha moment-- one of those
bricks that gradually paved my way to the path of mindful parenting).
Robin
Ma to Luca, 6 and Lillian, 4

[Betsy Hill]

**

But it's very hard for me to
feel connected to him when we aren't
communicating properly.**

Take the word "properly" completely out of your vocabulary. Try to stop comparing who your husband is with your image of proper husbandly perfection. You'll both be happier, I swear!

Betsy

[Sandra Dodd]

-=- Guess it's just another
thing I need to do myself (make the calls and
find out on my own).
-=-

If you had worded that (and thought that) as "It's probably something
that I should just do happily"
instead of
"Guess it's just
another
thing I need to do
myself"

Every few words or phrases of the way you worded it sound very put
upon, very "last straw."

-=-"What time do we need to leave to get to the

> party on time" seems a
> very, very vague question to me.
>

I gotta think about that one. It seems pretty
specific to me. Would you mind elaborating?
-=-

I did elaborate, in the e-mail before. I gave specific examples of
how you might ask questions to get all the information you might
need. If you click "archive" at the bottom, you can find the whole
thread in one place.

-=-

> It sounds like a test he had to take all alone,
> and he failed. Again.
>

I wish it seemed that simple in our home. I know
that I need to make lots of adjustments to
myself, my own attitude/outlook. But I feel like
I'm having to meet the needs of 3 kids instead of
2, while my own get ignored.-=-

It sounds to me that you're willing to hold your breath until you're
divorce, and that's not good for anyone involved. The kinder and
more generous you are, the kinder people in your family will be to you.

-=- It feels
unbalanced. I'm sure that's something that
requires a perspective shift, but do I just
ignore my own needs for the rest of our lives
together just to keep the peace? -=-

What are these extreme choices you're making? You either "just
ignore your own needs for the rest of your lives together..." or
what? Or he magically changes? Or what?

And by saying "the rest of our lives together" it sounds like you've
already set the timer. You didn't write "the rest of my life," as
someone intending to keep wedding vows might have done.

-=--=-From his POV, he can't do anything right

> enough to please me,-=-
>
> If your child felt that way, would you change?
>

-=-Of course, and I try with him, too, but after a
while I just get tired.-=-

If your child needed you to change, would you try for a while and
then declare "tired"?

-=- While I do need to get my
way sometimes, remember that this is about
communication. -=-

One way communication isn't communication at all.

Maybe you've about "communicated" him to death.

-= I'm willing to compromise if we
can just get to the point where I know that what
we say to each other is going to be what's
actually going to be recalled a week from now.
-=-=

Maybe put things in writing. Have a list on the wall. Have a map of
the house next time you want crepe myrtle. Mark the place with a
handful of flour. Even someone who's had a c-section can drop a
handful of flour.

Be creative. If all your stubborness could turn to hope and
creativity, things would be better.
If half of the justifications could turn to brainstorming it would help.

-=-

> What if...
> What if there was a big flood at your house, or
> your husband lost his
> job, or your house caught fire?
> Wouldn't some things seem much, much less
> important then?
>

-=-I try not to think too much about "What if"s. -=-

Really?
What other kind of thinking is there?

How could you be making decisions about whether to homeschool without
"what ifs"?
How did you decide to have children without "what if's"?

-=-Of
course something like that would be devastating
initially, but am I to think that we would
suddenly be able to communicate after the house
was cleaned out or rebuilt? What would have
changed to make communication clearer?-=-

Do you really need me to tell you what I hoped you would think?

I'm asking you to consider what might change if...
and you say you don't want to think "what if" and then ask me for the
answer.
"Am I to think..."

You seem to think there's one right answer, and that's less
flexibility than necessary for five people to get along together.

-=-Then don't. They're not school age. It's too

> early to commit to
> unschooling.
>

-=-I'm not sure I get this. I thought unschooling
started at birth.-=-

Some people think so. I don't. I think it's faddishly cool for some
people, and that some subset of those end up putting kids in school
when they're five. When that happens, I don't think they ever
"unschooled." They practiced attachment parenting. Why can't you
just call it that until school age? What would be the difference?

-=-Are you saying that it's just
not worth worrying about our different parenting
styles at this point, that it will likely change
as the girls get a little older?-=-

It WILL change. You hope it will change right?

Not "likely" change, but will get better or worse.

-=-

> I thought you LIKED your kids.
>

-=-With ALL due respect, that's out of line.-=-

I'll give you a full refund of all the money you paid to join this
list, then. $0.
You're the one indicating you feel near divorce and even think it
might be good.

THAT is not best for your children.
THAT does not lead toward peace for your chidren.
That is not a path to unschooling.

If you like your kids enough to keep your family intact, you need to
work on the relationship with your husband, which will definitely
involve changing your inflexible positions, and probably require LOTS
of thought about "what if."

-=

> YOU give in and go along for the sake of peace.
> Make HIS life happy and joyful and good.
>

-=-Does that not set a bad example for the girls? -=-

Are you setting a good example for the girls now?

-=-If I see that we're not communicating properly
and he doesn't see that we're not communicating
properly, does that mean that I'm trying to make
it a problem because I want us to comminicate
better?-=-

It means you have expectations that are unlikely to be met.
It means you should change your expectations.

Expectations can ruin everything.

-=- I definitely didn't have a happy
childhood, but his wasn't a whole lot better.-=-

There are ways to get over that.

-=- I want to meet his needs
without dismissing the fact that my needs count,
too.-=-

Sounds like a standoff.
Would you create a standoff with one of your children?
Would you maintain a standoff that risks your children's chance for a
happy, intact home?

Sandra

[Sandra Dodd]

-=-

Deborah Tannen has written several books about communication that contain some interesting insights.  The one about male-female communication differences is entitled, _You Just Don't Understand_.-=-

http://www.amazon.com/You-Just-Dont-Understand-Conversation/dp/0060959622

124 used & new available from $3.47

[GailB...@aol.com]

In a message dated 9/25/2006 6:03:05 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, smc...@yahoo.com writes:

Honestly, I find myself wondering lately if it'd
be easier to be a single parent.  Then I'd have
to deal with the issues only on a part-time
basis.  I know that's bogus, but I find myself

thinking about it a lot.  Can you tell that I
have a tendency to try to find the easy way out?

___

I found myself nodding with all the wonderful responses about this issue and just wanted to comment about this part.

 

Don't even wonder.  Don't even waste a minute of your time considering it.  All your energy should be directed at solutions within your marriage.  If you are a single parent, there will be no energy for much of anything.  Unschooling will be the least of your concerns.  I'm ten years down the road from where you are.  It doesn't really matter who was to blame or if you tried hard enough. When your kids are teenagers and haven't had their dad in their lives every day that really doesn't matter.

 

 I was a single parent.  There was nothing wonderful about it. I remarried an absolutely wonderful man who truly does get unschooling and we have a strong happy marriage.  We have five kids between us and my two absolutely love him. So do I.  He's a wonderful "dad" to them and they see their biological dad several times a year when he comes and stays with us or go to visit him in the summer.

 

We've tried our best to have a "good divorce" but I don't believe there is such a thing.  My kids' dad was here last week and I drove him to the airport early one morning after he had told the kids goodbye.  He talked about possibly moving closer and how it might be too late for his relationship with his daughter but maybe not his son.   It truly breaks my heart.  I hugged him goodbye and said..."seems like after 10 years this would get easier."  It doesn't.  I cried all the way home. 

 

I long ago stopped wondering if I could have done things differently. However,  I adamantly tell others considering a divorce to exhaust all avenues.  If you think you can give it a year and try everything you know to do before you  give up..think again........give it two...or three.  10 years goes by in a flash but for a child it can be most of their childhood.

 

Try self-help books, counseling--go alone if he won't go with you, consider a marriage retreat for a weekend, find a way to spend more time together and try and remember what it felt like to fall in love again. Be creative.  Be giving even when it doesn't feel like he is giving.  Be loving..even when it may seem he doesn't love you.  It could pay off and that "could" may make all the difference in the world for your children.

 

If there is no abuse, children need both parents in their lives.....together....every day.  Probably a statement not supported by some but I stand by it and I think my children would agree.

 

Gail

[Betsy Hill]

**

Every few words or phrases of the way you worded it sound very put

upon, very "last straw."**

Personally, I was very gloomy last month. My friends pointed out what they could hear about my attitude from my speech. I've been trying exercise and sunshine and positive thinking. I feel much better now. Your mileage may vary. More serious depression might require medical help. (I take Omega 3 supplements, which I think are good for brain function.)

Look for even small things to be happy about, or small things to do to be happier. Smile, even if it's artificial, it still stimulates chemicals that affect your mood. Smell the top of your kids' heads. Sing, hum, breathe, cherish.

If/when negative thoughts come, if you can't replace them w. positive thoughts, then at least attack the negative and cut it back to a realistic size.

"Cognitive therapy" has some pretty cool techniques. (I'm awaiting a new book from the library on this topic myself.)

Betsy

[Danielle Conger]

I just wanted to add a book recommendation that I don't think came
through yet: Thich Nhat Hahn's _Anger: Wisdom for Cooling the Flames_,
which is more about the mental work that can be done to heal
relationships than it is about *anger*, imo. He espouses gently and
clearly many of the ideas brought up about changing one's thinking and
taking care of relationships.

--
~~Danielle
Emily (9), Julia (7), Sam (6)
http://www.organiclearning.blogspot.com

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*

Connections: ezine of unschooling and mindful parenting
http://connections.organiclearning.org

[Sandra Dodd]

-=-

> Every few words or phrases of the way you
> worded it sound very put
> upon, very "last straw."
>

I am certainly aware of that. I'm just trying to
be honest about how I feel and figure out how to
make things better.-=-

I'm recommending changing the phrasing.
Being honest about how you feel and then seeing that your feelings
are selfish or unhelpful is the first step in changing how you word
your intentions or your summaries of what's happening.

If my husband is really making me mad, I could say "He doesn't care
that he's making me angry."

Or I could say "Maybe something's not going well with him. Maybe
he's feeling ill or work didn't go well."

Maybe caring whether I'm angry shouldn't be the first thing on his
list. Maybe he needs something. Food, water, a dark quiet room,
attention, privacy, something. If I just look at me, me, me and
what I want and how he sees me, it will be hard for me to wonder
whether he might be needier than I am. Maybe he's tired, wounded,
maybe work didn't go well, maybe the car's making a noise that sounds
like it might cost $600.

If I don't think about those things, then I very literally at that
moment do not care about him.
If I don't care about what he might need, I don't care.

Caring is important.

-=-I did read the whole thread, and I recall your
having made several suggestions of additional
questions I could have asked, that definitely
seem like they could help, but I don't see that
the initial question was "very, very vague". I
just see that you showed me ways to elaborate on
it, which is almost always an option.-=-

Elaboration overcomes vagueness.

-=- I'll do all I
can to make it work,-=-

Would you sell something to pay for counseling?
Would you borrow money for counseling?

-=- if neither of us are
happy some time in the future, then I feel
comfortable with the idea of us both moving on.
-=-

This disregards the profound DIScomfort it would bring to your children.

-=- I will always do my best to
give them what they need.-=-

Really? Then you've contradicted yourself in a very short space.
You can't do all you can to make your marriage work, and do your best
to give them what they need, and be comfortable with the idea of
moving on.

-=-
>
>> I thought you LIKED your kids.
>>
>>
> -=-With ALL due respect, that's out of line.-=-
>
> I'll give you a full refund of all the money
> you paid to join this
> list, then. $0.
>

That's just silly. -=-

Maybe consider showing these posts to your yoga instructor. <g>
Maybe he can help you see what people are telling you.

Maybe, if you print them out to show him, circle all the times you
use the word "just" (as in "that's just silly") and think about what
you mean when you choose that word. "Just." It's a powerfully
negative word.

-=-That is not a path to unschooling.
>

There are single unschooling parents, right? Are
their kids less unschooled that those with
married parents?-=-

There are single unschooling parents whose spouses are dead or who
are entirely out of the picture.
There are zero single unschooling parents whose ex spouse is opposed
to unschooling, because in such cases a judge orders that the
children to go to school.

-=-

> -=- I definitely didn't have a happy
> childhood, but his wasn't a whole lot
> better.-=-
>
> There are ways to get over that.
>

-=-Not seeing the relevance.-=-

You see no relevance in whether your childhood was unhappy?
Unmet needs in children turn into neediness in adulthood.
You seem desperately needy, but that CAN be addressed.

-=-Does a happy, intact home have to be defined as a
nuclear family?-=-

Yes. Intact means both parents and the children.
There are not any intact divorces.

Sandra

[plaidpa...@yahoo.com]

Stephanie Jackson wrote:
> From his POV, he can't do anything right enough

> to please me, and lately I think he's right.
> It's no fun for either of us to live that way.

but later on:
> There is a whole lot of good in him.

and describe him as: "very loving"
and with lots of "cool things to appreciate"

This is really important - you aren't describing him as abusive, or a
jerk. You aren't saying he's a Lousy dad, he's just not getting it
"right enough".

With my own partner, it has helped enormously for me to focus on the
positive aspects of his parenting. Like saying: "wow, you were really
patient today" without commenting to the effect that he isn't always so
patient. Or "I just love the fact that you went to the store with dd
dressed in her halloween costume" without mentioning the fact that he
yelled at her to put shoes on. It has helped him feel confident in his
*ability* to parent, as opposed to his relative *skill* as a parent.
That confidence has helped him improve his skills - to some extent I
think it gave him a reason to improve. He *knew* he could do even
better.

You keep repeating that its a communication problem, it sounds more
like a problem of expectations. It sounds like you are expecting him to
parent *like you* - which is impossible. Even if he agrees with you
100%, his parenting isn't going to look like yours, because he's not
you. THAT'S A GOOD THING. Your kids will learn different things about
life from their dad than they will from their mom. There will be times
when you are struggling to see the joy in a box of rocks, or an
incomprehensible computer game, or whatever, but dad is saying "hey,
cool!" There may be times when you are totally at a loss about some new
developmental stage, but he says "oh, I was like that at seven, too".
Or times when the girls go to him for support and advice b/c they think
more like he does and can't figure out why it matters if you don't
bring a dish to the potluck, or plant a tree ten feet more to the left.

For that matter, he's not ever going to communicate in the same way you
do, and that's a good thing, too. Your kids may be more like him than
you. They might not be very much like either of you! They will
certainly need to communicate with a wide variety of people in the
world, though, so having a couple different communication styles going
on in the home may not be such a bad thing.

Here's a link to The Five Love Languages:
http://www.fivelovelanguages.com/learn.html

If you're not familiar with that, its a way of describing how different
people experience and communicate love, affection, trust.... It amazing
just how different people can be.

---Meredith (Morgan, 5)

[Su Penn]

On Sep 25, 2006, at 7:53 PM, Stephanie Jackson wrote:

> I'm reminded of a time at our last house. I'd
> been asking for crape myrtles for 5 years, but he
> didn't want to spend the money, with our having
> lost my income when I quit my job to stay home
> with dd. After a couple of years he went out and
> bought 2 of them for Mother's Day. He went
> outside and starting digging a hole in the yard
> and I went out and asked what he was doing. He
> said he was planting them. I told him I wanted
> them in a different location, and showed him
> where.

If I were your partner, I'd have been frustrated and hurt by this,
too. I'd have felt criticized at a time when I was anticipating
making you really happy with something you had wanted for a long
time. Could you have let him plant the trees, and then just enjoyed
looking at them and appreciating them both as a kind of tree you love
and as a representation of his love even if they weren't where you
would have put them if you had been in charge?

I had a real gift when I was pregnant with our first son six years
ago and so sick for so long that I could not do anything: no
housework, no driving a car, no nothing. David, and a friend who
lived with us at the time, had to step up and take on all of my
responsibilities as well as their own. The gift in this--one of the
gifts, because there were surprisingly many--was that I had to let go
of wanting them to do things the way I would have done them. I had to
let them do things "wrong." It made me much less controlling in the
long run.

> If I see that we're not communicating properly
> and he doesn't see that we're not communicating
> properly, does that mean that I'm trying to make
> it a problem because I want us to comminicate
> better?

My partner David and I went to a Couple Enrichment workshop some
years ago. The whole point of the afternoon was to get people to own
their own problems, to recognize that a problem belongs to the person
who is experiencing it as a problem. Our example was that David is
untroubled by some things that I see as clutter. Our house at the
time had a landing on the stairs that often had things of his on it
that he would leave there literally for months. It didn't bother him;
it bothered me. I wanted to make it his problem and blame him for it
and force him to change his habits, but because I was the only one
bothered by this habit of his, it was actually _my_ problem. And
owning it as my problem has changed the way I approach him about
things like that, and how he responds. It has really changed things,
allowing us to find better solutions.

I hear you saying that you are dissatisfied with the way you
communicate as a couple. OK. But you are writing as if "we're not
communicating properly" is an objective reality that only you are
enlightened enough to recognize. It's not an objective reality. It's
your perception. You're not "trying to make it a problem"; you have
made it a problem. That doesn't mean your concerns aren't something
to take seriously, but if you see him as recalcitrant and deficient
because something that bothers you doesn't bother him, it's harder to
approach him in ways he can listen to and respond lovingly to.

A story about communication. David and I have been together a long
time and twice have been in conflicts that threatened our
relationship, so I have some experience with getting it really super-
duper wrong and also with getting it right.

David and I were in couples therapy. This might have been ten years
ago. In therapy, I did most of the talking, because I do most of the
talking everywhere. But it seemed to me that he wasn't pulling his
weight in therapy, and I was feeling discouraged and hurt by it.
Finally, in a session, I told him that I needed to see him doing his
share of the work in therapy and if he didn't, I'd leave him. He said
he didn't think he could do what it would require for the work he was
doing to become visible to me, that for him, a lot was happening
internally but he didn't need to verbalize it and wasn't sure he
could. We left that session feeling like our relationship was doomed.

A couple of days later, I was driving my car, feeling discouraged
about things. And suddenly it hit me that if I loved him, I should
trust him, and that if he said he was doing the work, I should
believe he was doing the work, even if my definition of "doing the
work" was so narrow that what he was doing didn't fit it. And that
moment of insight transformed everything.

I thought the problem was that David didn't talk enough about his
feelings or something like that. It turns out that the problem was
that I was unable to accept David as he was. You said elsewhere that
you end up feeling like you've got three kids to take care of, and I
know that sometimes I get stuck feeling like I am _always_ the one to
make a change (this happens with the kids, too, where I catch myself
wanting a conflict to be resolved by Eric, who is 5, changing his
behavior). But every time I have stopped trying to change someone I
love and focused instead on changing my own behavior or expectations,
becoming more tolerant, it has been transformative.

Su

[Sandra Dodd]

-=-Without rereading the whole thread, I don't
recall this having been about me being angry.
Frustrated, yes. Tired, yes. Angry? Not
recalling that.-=-

It's not all about you.
We're talking about ideas.

You're very argumentative and defensive.
If you're this argumentative in your marriage, I'm on your husband's
side.

Could you try to relax and let ideas flow by you instead of trying to
bat some away and strangle the others?

-=-This disregards the profound DIScomfort it

> would bring to your children.
>

-=-See, it sounds like you're still assuming that
the only way for kids to be happy is with both
parents. -=

See, it seems you've already decided to get divorced and you're
hoping people here will say "cool; no problem."

-=- I'm not on a fast track to divorce --=-

I believe your writing reveals something entirely contradictory to
the brief statement above. It seems you're running the final lap
toward divorce and you don't care.

-=-Sandra, have you ever, even for a day, felt a little down? -=-

Lots. Of course. All the way to absolute clinical depression and
back, more than once.
But for my sake, my children's sake, my husband's sake, and my dog,
my cats, this list, I make decisions all day every day that take me
nearer to a better, lighter, happier place. I consciously and
carefully choose NOT to wallow and justify and moan and sigh and
blame others.

-=- Have you ever looked for answers to help you heal a
relationship? Any relationship.-=-

Yes. Once when I was young (and childless) I got divorced. All the
women around me said "Oh yeah, Leave!" That was very heartless of
them. It was cavalier. It wasn't helpful. It was bullshit. But it
was the fashion of the day. Not one of them was there to help me
later. Not one of them said "Stay and work on it."

Are you suggesting that people on this list aren't trying to help you
heal a relationship?
Or are you suggesting (by using my name directly) that you don't
think *I* am offering any useful ideas?

-=-Have you ever thought that maybe, just
maybe, some peoples' constitutions are just a
little different from yours, and they may just
not feel the same emotions as you in a given day?
That they may express them differently than you?
Does that make them all selfish?-=-

If I agree that your constitution is different from mine, will that
mean that you're not being selfish?

http://sandradodd.com/balance

You've flung away a couple of questions presented in the hope of your
seeing that you're setting up extreme dichotomies.
You're looking at on/off switches instead of dimmer switches.

-=-

> There are zero single unschooling parents whose
> ex spouse is opposed
> to unschooling, because in such cases a judge
> orders that the
> children to go to school.
>

My spouse isn't opposed to unschooling. He just
doesn't "get it". I think it's not usually a
good idea to speak in absolutes. But that's just
what I think.-=-

I think you're either unsure of that you think, or you're just
claiming thoughts without having thoughts.

I know of zero (0) unschoolers who are happily unschooling with an
opposed ex spouse.
Do you know of any?

I know of absolutely zero, and have been involved in unschooling for
sixteen years.
Do you know of absolutely ONE?

-=-

> You see no relevance in whether your childhood
> was unhappy?
> Unmet needs in children turn into neediness in
> adulthood.
>

-=-Also entirely possible. I'm just not looking for
more problems. -=-

Are you just looking for the problem outside yourself and not in?

-=-

> You seem desperately needy, but that CAN be
> addressed.
>

I think that's a bit of an overstatement. Needy,
I'll give you. Desperately....can't agree with you.-=-

Doesn't matter whether you agree with me or not.
The fact that I stated "You seem..." is not an overstatement.
To me, your statements read like "I NEED (more, different, better,
perfection, communication on my terms)."

Desperation would lead one to discuss divorce.
I think discussion of divorce and resistance to suggestions of change
are both indicators in the "desparate" range.

What you've written and put in public will stay there a long time.
Maybe you can look back at it in six months or a year and see how it
looks to you then. Whether I had ever read it or not, it would look
the same. Whether I had ever commented on it or not, your
expressions of unhappiness would still be there.

It's not about me at all.

The ideas are worth examining.
The negativity isn't worth defending.

Sandra

[Sandra Dodd]

-=-

> Would you borrow money for counseling?
>

Sure.
-=-

But you told us you couldn't afford counselling, didn't you?

Maybe if you make a couple of phone calls and ask what one hour of
attorney's fees are compared to an hour of marriage counselling that
could be another deciding factor.

Sandra

[mamaa...@yahoo.com]

> On Sep 25, 2006, at 7:53 PM, Stephanie Jackson wrote:
>
> > I'm reminded of a time at our last house. I'd
> > been asking for crape myrtles for 5 years, but he
> > didn't want to spend the money, with our having
> > lost my income when I quit my job to stay home
> > with dd. After a couple of years he went out and
> > bought 2 of them for Mother's Day. He went
> > outside and starting digging a hole in the yard
> > and I went out and asked what he was doing. He
> > said he was planting them. I told him I wanted
> > them in a different location, and showed him
> > where.
>

Su Penn wrote:
> If I were your partner, I'd have been frustrated and hurt by this,
> too. I'd have felt criticized at a time when I was anticipating
> making you really happy with something you had wanted for a long
> time.

Have you read any NVC? It talks about expressing your needs and giving
the other person the opportunity to do the same. I could see something
like this happening with my dh and this is how I'd like to respond.

Oh, you're planting them already?

<be silent for longer than you'd think to make sure he has a real
opportunity to start talking if he wants to>

I've been wanting these for years.

How did you decide to plant them here?

<maybe he asks if you wanted them elsewhere, maybe he doesn't>

I always pictured them over there. What do you think?

I know you've already started digging. I didn't mean to make more work
for you. Thanks for getting to this so quickly.

etc.

The points people are making about doing things happily yourself and
expecting less aren't meant to just shove your wants and needs aside. A
lot of us believe that you won't get to a better place without being
happier and expecting less.

I know with the kids that little, it's mostly about putting their needs
waaay before yours. Read some stories about teenage unschoolers and see
how much they give back to their parents. Take the long view of
parenting and marriage. Be kind and gentle for a long time without
looking for its effect on dh. It's a better way to be, even if it leads
to no change in him. Of course, over time, it might just rub off on
him.

Same thing with the messages here. If you're unhappy with one, don't
write back immediately. There's no expectation that you have to answer
every--or any--question. No time frame. Come back to them later. Print
them and see if they look different on paper.

Hmm, we need some audio on unschooling sites so we can hear the voices
of other unschoolers...let their words wash over us...

Sandra, when are you going to start podcasting??!

--aj

[queenj...@yahoo.com]

Stephanie, it sounds like your dh, and my son's father have alot in
common. Some background: we lived in the same city as my son's father
for the first year of my son's life, then moved to another (close)state
to be near family, and my son saw his father every month. Then, when my
son was almost three, we moved back to that city for four years. During
that time he was very involved, we saw him every day, my son would
spend nights at his apt (just down the street), and for a period of
maybe 9 months he did live with us (we were not a couple during this
time.) When my son was in 1st grade, his experience in school was so
bad that i ended up quitting my job and moving back to live with my
family, and homeschool my son. My son's father did not want us to do
this, but didnt try to prevent it. We see him every 1-3 months now, and
my son will occasionally go on family trips with him.

Its very very hard to be around someone who doesnt practice mindful
parenting. My son's father was here last week, and it was a struggle
for me. I'm just not used to hearing someone talk to my son in a
patronizing way, or raise their voice at him. An example: They were
watching 2001 (the movie)and my son asked his father a question about
it. In our unschooling world, we'd pause the movie and talk about it.
But my son's father got this really incredulous, condenscending tone
(kind of like"how could you ask such a stupid question, isnt it
obvious") in answering him. It was really painful for me to hear.
Finally i just blurted out "Cant you be NICE??" He really truly doesnt
realize he is taking this tone, but when i point it out he seems to
make no effort to change.

He also has a real problem with making Seamus a priority when they are
together. They were going to go see a movie, seamus wanted to see one
movie, he wanted to see another. When they got back, they said they saw
the second movie. Seamus' father said it was fair because "they had
flipped a coin"...what kind of father doesnt let his kid choose the
movie when he is only in town for a couple of days? I finally had a sit
down with him, where i basically said that i didnt think he was making
his son a priority, he doesnt make very good choices, and that if he is
choosing to be a bad father, fine whatever, but i wanted to be sure it
was an intentional choice because his son will only be a child for the
next 8 years and then it will be too late. He got defensive and it
didnt go well.

I get the feeling that for you, its not really about where he wanted to
plant the flowers or whether you were late to the party, or where the
barbie shoe will end up. Its about the cumilative effect of these
little things over time that amount to a big thing. It can feel very
disrespectful to have your child's father basically shrug and act like
he is relieved of having to know these things. When i would point out
to my son's father a couple of examples (like the movie thing, or
making him sit in a record store for hours while he shopped, or leaving
him home alone while he went out or....)he would make it about that ONE
thing, and offer a reason ("i didnt know we were going to be at the
store that long...." "Seamus was fine with seeing that movie..."), and
not at all get that added up it amounts to some really crappy
parenting.

I agree with everyone else that of course your marriage is worth
working on. But i can also say that our lives are SO much better living
apart, and living mindfully and homeschooling, than they EVER were
together. And it wasnt like he was uninvolved, he was a daily part of
my son's life, we went on vacations together, every holiday together
etc. Is it sad that my son doesnt have a father who's willing to make
his son's happiness a priority? Absolutely yes.

I think changing attitude is important too (while my son was here i
kept thinking "WWAD?"--What Would Amy Carpenter, who signs her posts
Peace,Amy, Do?), let go of the little things that don't matter. But
your husband has responsibility too. If you DID get divorced, its
likely he'd only see his girls on the weekends, or a lot less than he
does now. Does he really want that? Does he NOT want that enough to
work on his parenting skills, and on his husband skills? Have you
discussed your unhappiness with him?

Katherine

[Betsy Hill]

**

See, it sounds like you're still assuming that
the only way for kids to be happy is with both

parents.**

My parents were divorced when I was 9. This wrecked Christmas and made other holidays annoying and complicated. This still affects me as a 47 year old adult. I'm really surprised at how easily you dismiss the consequences of divorce on your children.

Visitation with my dad wasn't as relaxing and natural as being together in our own home.

Since I went to public school, I had to go to worse public schools because of the downward mobility that often happens with divorce.

When my marriage got really flat, I stayed because I knew the my husband and I were both deeply beloved by our son and I didn't think he could live without either of us being in his life everyday. Most kids feel the same way, I'm sure.

Betsy

[Schuyler Waynforth]

> I'm reminded of a time at our last house. I'd
> been asking for crape myrtles for 5 years, but he
> didn't want to spend the money, with our having
> lost my income when I quit my job to stay home
> with dd. After a couple of years he went out and
> bought 2 of them for Mother's Day. He went
> outside and starting digging a hole in the yard
> and I went out and asked what he was doing. He
> said he was planting them. I told him I wanted
> them in a different location, and showed him

> where. He threw down the shovel and went back
> inside. My dd was about 6 weeks old at the time,
> and I'd had a c-section, so me doing it myself
> was just going to have to wait.

My mom sends me her old magazines every month or so. I unpack them
into the bathroom and read them at my leisure. Among the regular
subscriptions is the Unitarian Universalists World magazine. There was
an article about marriage that gently plays in the back of my head at
regular intervals.
http://www.uuworld.org/life/articles/threewayshusbsexpresslove2663.shtml
. The section that rings true with me, that I think about from time to
time is this:
"Husbands said that in most cases their actions said more than their
words. One husband said he expresses his love by filling up his wife's
car with gas and taking it to the mechanic for oil changes. Another
husband spoke of expressing his love by planning surprise weekend
get-aways with his wife. One man leaves chocolates on his wife's
pillow. Another draws a bath for his wife when she returns from a hard
day at work.

To men, loving actions can even be mundane. A retired editor, married
ten years, told me that he felt closest to his wife every Tuesday
afternoon. That's when he gathers together the household
recycling—plastic, glass, newspaper, corrugated cardboard—and places
it in boxes on the front lawn to be taken away. His wife is a
passionate environmentalist, but can no longer carry heavy loads. So
by handling the recycling, this husband says, he is doing something
that pleases her. In his words, this man believes loving is "about
deeds, not creeds. . . . What men do is often very deep, and reflects
a devotion that they can't express in words."

David loves me without talking about it. He fixes my coffee every
morning, and if he has to go to work before I get up, he cleans out
the pot and sets it up on the stove. He makes sure that the roof
doesn't leak, he keeps the car running, he works to support us, he
does the dishes when I'm tired. But he doesn't verbalize it. It just
isn't a part of him to talk about it.

So, maybe, when you went out and asked your husband to move the
plants, you didn't see everything else that there was to see. He was
giving you this gift, this gift that felt like a waste of money to
him, money you didn't have because you'd quit your job. He was being
extravagant and loving and generous and what you saw and expressed was
frustration at him not planting it in the right place. So, instead of
a gift, you helped him to give you both a point of resentment. A story
to tell to justify each of your anger. So you can tell it as a picture
of how pitiful his communication skills are and he can tell it as how
he can never satisfy you perfectionist requirements.

Marriage takes work. It takes commitment and work. I'm nowhere near as
good at working at my marriage as David is. He is so generous without
needing accolades from me that I don't always see how light he makes
my load. And those times when I feel like I am doing everything,
carrying for everyone, laboring and toiling and sweating without
enough people praising me (like they should), I forget how easy my
life is because of his generousity, his love, his silent and strong
support.

>If I see that we're not communicating properly
>and he doesn't see that we're not communicating
>properly, does that mean that I'm trying to make
>it a problem because I want us to comminicate
>better?

Maybe he is communicating in the best way he knows how. Maybe it is
you who aren't listening well enough.

>But I feel like
>I'm having to meet the needs of 3 kids instead of
>2, while my own get ignored.

Not that this is a totally fair way to look at the world, but he is
literally supporting 3 dependants. You decided to stay home when your
dd was born, I don't know how mutually that decision was arrived at,
but he has taken on the responsibility of support you all financially.
That is a big burden to carry. When the balance between expenditures
and income seems to have gone horribly askew in our lives, the stress
on David is really intense. His moods are much harder to deal with, he
is more likely to talk about how hard his career path has been on me,
our sex life disappers. It took a little while for me to suss it out,
to attribute his seemingly from nowhere depression with the burden of
responsibility that he carries, but now that I can see the pattern, it
is easier to talk about it with him. And I am trying to help carry
that burden by budgeting our money better and publically. So, maybe,
when you feel like you are carrying for everyone, look at how he is
too.

Schuyler

[Schuyler Waynforth]

Along the lines of looking at things from another perspective, turning
the negative to positive: Last night I was putting away clothes to get
beds ready to be slept in. I was grouchy and tired and feeling put
upon. It was only a burden, only a chore. But this morning when
Linnaea got dressed she was wearing a shirt that I'd folded last night
and put away. She wouldn't have known that she could wear that shirt
if I hadn't taken the time to put it were it was easy to find. And so
it changed from being burden and chore to being a gift that I gave
her, which washed away all the resentment I felt last night.

Schuyler

[ansiadancer]

If you want help to explore and untangle the impact of each of your
childhoods on your marriage, a really good author is Harville Hendrix.
I think that the title of his book on marriage is "Getting the Love You
Deserve."
In a marriage, there is an immediate impulse to relocate one's own
difficult feelings and problems in one's spouse instead of in one's
self. This is not the only reason, but is part of why we unconsciously
pick the partner's we do. There is powerful healing available if
instead, of trying to change our spouses, we use our complaints to
learn what inside each of us needs to be addressed more fully. This
offers a path of self-knowledge and fulfillment and greater
communication, empathy and freedom in the marriage.
I am an unschooling parent who has worked hard to fully coparent with
my husband, I also am a psychoanalytic psychotherapist. This type of
approach has been incredibly helpful in my own life and in my work.
But it takes a willingness to go deeper and be fearlessly honest about
oneself.
Best, Andrea

[Joyce Fetteroll]

On Sep 26, 2006, at 12:43 AM, Stephanie Jackson wrote:

Neither of her marriages

were ANY easier on my siblings and I than when

she was single.  Happy marriage is absolutely

ideal, but is not always an option.

I think you're seeing it through child's eyes of a family of tension vs a family of no tension.

Your focus is on arguing against the idea that "No divorce is better than a bad marriage". That's preventing you from hearing why people believe that. It will help you help yourself to change your focus to understanding why they believe that.

While some people can find a happy marriage after a bad one, it *won't* help if you keep that in mind as a possible outcome of a divorce. You really need to focus on the worst, and more likely, outcome if you care about your kids because *that's* what you're more likely to get from a divorce. With a divorce you *aren't* just getting a man you can't communicate with out of the house. It doesn't work like that.

If you can't communicate with your husband now, how will you communicate with a new husband *and* a resentful ex-husband *and* a protective ex-husband's new wife?

How will you nurture your children when a judge orders them into to school when they reach 6?

How will you be able to gently parent them when they spend 50% of their time with a father whose communication won't improve *and* a wife whose ideal is that children should be seen and not heard?

*That's* the scenario you need to plan for. Maybe one in a couple thousand divorces will lay a golden egg but it's way more realistic to plan for a whole lot of crap.

Again, I see my children and dh as completely

separate entities.  I will always do my best to

give them what they need.

Has that point of view led you to happiness?

Lots of people approach children (and often other adults) with the attitude of "I'll treat them with respect when they treat me with respect."

Yeah. And their kids grow up, move a 1000 miles away and never call.

I think you're seeing your choices as either setting aside your life to make him happy or standing firm until he starts making you happy half the time.

It doesn't need to be either of those.

I often turn scenarios between mother and children into wife and husband to help people see how hurtful their actions are and how reasonable their supposedly unreasonable children's reactions are.

It works the other way too -- assuming someone is already seeing the wisdom of being gentle with their children. If you wouldn't treat a child in a certain way, why would you treat your husband that way? If you know a child is not capable of dressing himself, would you stand by and insist that he do? Wouldn't you just dress him? Or find ways that he doesn't need to dress? If you know that your husband doesn't communicate in a certain way, would insisting -- through words, actions, frustration -- that he do make him? Would his insisting that you learn to rebuild engines make you do that lovingly and joyfully?

If you see your nurturing of him as a payment for nurturing you in return, you're going to be disappointed. If being kind is a way to get kindness back, he'll feel the strings attached and will resent it.

Doing things for our families needs to be a gift. And gifts don't come with strings. It's something we want to do. And in the process, as a side effect, we become people they want to do things in return for. But we can't approach doing things for them with that in mind.

*And* we also have to do things for ourselves. We need to know our boundaries and be honest when we can't do something.

I think a lot of people fear that if they give, they'll turn into the people who are always *sacrificing* their needs to give to others, and who become bitter and resentful that no one gives them in return. Like the moms who drag themselves around with a fever to keep the house running and no one appreciates how sick she is. She's *showing* everyone with her actions  she's not sick so of course they aren't treating her as sick. She needs to go to bed! ;-)

Don't sacrifice your own needs and expect others to appreciate it. Don't *EXPECT* others to meet your needs. (That "expect" is important.) Find ways to make yourself happy. Find ways to make others happy. Then you'll be someone -- as a side effect, not as a goal -- that others will want to help be happy.

I'm just trying to

be honest about how I feel and figure out how to

make things better.

I think this society does a poor job with feelings. We treat them as something to either react to or stuff down to stop us from reacting.

But if a feeling is making us miserable, rather than seeing the world as at fault and the world needing to change so our feelings can change, it's a lot more helpful and realistic to realize we are the only ones we can change. We can learn techniques to see the world differently so that we can find happiness. It's way simpler than trying to change the world around us to suit our needs!

That's easy to say, of course. But without realizing that and knowing it to be true, it's hard to head in the direction. Without knowing it's true it's a whole lot harder to look at a feeling and judge whether it will improve a situation or make it worse.

Unmet needs in children turn into neediness in

adulthood.

Also entirely possible.  I'm just not looking for

more problems. 

You don't need to look for more problems. It may be at the root of the problems you have: why you need what you want and why you think your husband should meet those needs.

If we start building up resentment with what we give (that isn't appreciated), what we receive (that doesn't feel like enough) and what we need (that's being ignored) then we become people others want to avoid (and not do things for).

If so, was every word you said overwhelmingly

positive?

Try not to see this list as a support group and you won't have the expectation of hearing actual words that say people understand and sympathize. Try to see this list as where people come *after* they've decided "This isn't working. So what do I do now?"  You won't waste energy that could be used to changing your life to trying to change the group to have them meet your needs ;-) Assume the sympathy and understanding is inherent -- because it is -- in the advice people are giving you. You've just stumbled on a group who see more value in advice that will help them move on than in comfort for where they are now. And that's what people here tend to give in return.

Joyce

[Joyce Fetteroll]

On Sep 26, 2006, at 6:04 AM, Schuyler Waynforth wrote:

So, maybe, when you went out and asked your husband to move the

plants, you didn't see everything else that there was to see. He was

giving you this gift, this gift that felt like a waste of money to

him, money you didn't have because you'd quit your job. He was being

extravagant and loving and generous and what you saw and expressed was

frustration at him not planting it in the right place.

And you can still apologize for this right now! Don't follow it by a "But ..." to help him see why you reacted as you did. That will negate the apology. Just apologize.

Joyce

[Joyce Fetteroll]

On Sep 26, 2006, at 12:15 AM, Stephanie Jackson wrote:

You are clearly much more selfless than I.

It will help you help yourself better if, rather than seeing someone as inherently better, to see that someone learned to make better choices. Not jump from bad to best. But to make a *better* choice each time.

As some often suggest: always give yourself two choices and then take the better one, the one that moves you toward a better relationship. The more you take the better choice, the easier and more natural it becomes.

No one expects anyone to jump from where they are to perfection. To people who think in certain ways, that's what it sounds like. That's how the words get interpretted. But that *isn't* what people are saying.

People are saying: This will help. That will not help. (And of course *think* about why they think that will help and the other won't.)

Getting to the point where we can easily choose what will help over what will not help isn't easy. It takes practice. It takes hard work. It takes a lot of self examination. Our emotions will get in our way and pull us back into a cocoon of self protection where we insist it's time others tend to our needs. We have to learn to say no to what pulls us back and yes to what helps us step forward.

But the first steps are choosing to do something that will help and choosing not to do something that will hinder. Take it one step at a time.

People are just pointing out what steps are helpful and what steps will set you back. Don't take them as directives that you need to be able to do it all perfectly from the moment you read it. 

Joyce

[Jennifer]

--- Joyce Fetteroll <fett...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> It works the other way too -- assuming someone is
> already seeing the
> wisdom of being gentle with their children. If you
> wouldn't treat a
> child in a certain way, why would you treat your
> husband that way? If
> you know a child is not capable of dressing himself,
> would you stand
> by and insist that he do? Wouldn't you just dress
> him? Or find ways
> that he doesn't need to dress? If you know that your
> husband doesn't
> communicate in a certain way, would insisting --
> through words,
> actions, frustration -- that he do make him? Would
> his insisting that
> you learn to rebuild engines make you do that
> lovingly and joyfully?

I think this is a really important point. For example,
my husband seems to have no concept of time. If I said
to him, "We have to leave at nine" and then that was
it, it could easily turn into eleven and he would say,
"Oh, are we leaving soon?"

Or, I could tell him all week that So-and-So is on
Saturday at five, and he would forget all about it,
and two weeks later say, "When is So-and-So?"

I could easily rant and rave that he's an adult and
capable of telling time and I "shouldn't have to" tell
him when to get ready, whatever ... but how would that
help anybody? I know the reality; why not work with it
pleasantly?

So ... I'll tell what time we need to leave; then I"ll
say things like, "You have about ten minutes til we
leave" or whatever. I will also write down things like
dates/times/events on sticky notes because he finds
them helpful.

I should add that he likes this and finds it helpful,
and not that I'm just being a nag.

Jenny

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

[Hm...@aol.com]

This may roll in a few posts from yesterday bc I just caught up. Something keeps sticking in my mind about the examples/reactions from your DH regarding your requests.

 

You mentioned that you asked him to trim two limbs and he cut the whole tree down.

Is it possible that he's searching for his place in the home? Like asking a child to pick up blocks (when they were doing something else) and he starts throwing them across the room.

Frustration can show in many ways. Distracted minds can drive further down the road than intended. Has he spent the last 3 years learning about children and how to live together.  I'm not searching for excuses for his reactions only a starting point for you to help each other get back on track. Is it possible he feels frustrated by the unknowns?

Your at a stage in your life with two small children. If money is tight that can add lots of stress to a family.

 

I hear the divorce comments in your post. If you love your dh I wouldn't add that stress on top of what's going on. It takes one final argument to reach divorce. People don't look back enough to reach out and say I'm sorry. I'm not hearing that you don't love him so don't drive it to that and make this a bigger issue than it is. Your stressed, he's stressed and you have two small children that need you both happy. Find a connection for the both of you. Find what you enjoy together and do it even if it's at home.

 

Ask him to let you know sooner or don't feel accountable for his lack of information. If you know your going to a get-together ask him if your family is bringing something in advance. Otherwise he needs to learn to communicate with you as a team.

 

Learn about him just as you will do with your children for years to come. Try not to wait and set things up for an explosion. Clear the air when everyone is calm and discuss openly without judgment how you BOTH feel and what solutions you can reach.

 

 

Laura

************************************************************************

 

<<I guess I'm frustrated because he and I
communicate very differently.  I tend to speak
very literally, and he generally.  I can ask him
"What time do we need to leave to get to the
party on time?" and his response will likely be
something like "In the afternoon", and will not
have thought that telling me that I was expected
to bring a potluck dish would be necessary until
we're walking out the door, without even time to
stop and buy one without being quite late
(something I really don't like to do).  If I
asked him to let me know sooner next time, he'd
roll his eyes, grumble something like "What's the
big deal?">>

 

[Joyce Fetteroll]

On Sep 26, 2006, at 9:55 AM, Stephanie Jackson wrote:

So if I should be able to just ignore the

communication gap, how do things improve?  I will

continue to try to improve my end of it, but it's

communication, not who chooses what we're having

for dinner.  Thorough or inadequate communication

has far-reaching effects.  How do you just ignore

that?

*Why* is there a difference between what he says and the information you feel you need?

Do you think he's not communicating deliberately?

If so, can you become someone he wants to talk to?

Or do you think he can't communicate?

When you know he's not answering your questions with the information you want, can you ask more questions?

Or do you think what you're saying isn't getting interpreted in the way you mean it?

Perhaps assume he speaks a foreign language. (Men often don't speak "Woman"! ;-) Accept that your words aren't as clear to him as they are to you and perhaps never will be. It's just one of his quirks. :-) And accept that the burden of getting the information *you* want lies with you.

Are you perhaps asking how to make him need to communicate more? (You know that's not possible, right?) You might be able to create a greater desire to communicate if the need is buried and he doesn't feel comfortable talking. You'd have to become someone he feels comfortable talking to to do that.

But maybe I'm misunderstanding what you mean by "communication gap" if you feel the ideas that people have suggested haven't covered it yet.

Joyce

[Betsy Hill]

**

Neither. Just trying to find out if you have any
empathy for people who are occasionally
experience doubt and aren't always
glass-half-full.**

At the risk of being trite: when life gives you lemons, make lemonade, or maybe scratch and sniff the peel and be amazed at the scent! When you have half a glass of water and you feel sad that it isn't enough, notice that negativity and try and try again to be positive. Catching negative thoughts and replacing them with positive thoughts, or at least LESS negative thoughts can improve your life. Reframing negative thoughts can really help when you feel overwhelmed. Because of your experience with yoga, you probably already know that breathing can release stress. Smiling, even grimacing, can release mood-lifting chemicals. Focusing on good things help you feel like you have more good things in your life.

Childcare gets easier as kids become more skilled at meeting their own needs. Infancy and toddlerhood are probably the hardest times, IMO. It does get easier. It gets lots easier. Please expect your life to get better. Don't expect misery and frustration. Breathe through your frustration. Expect family life to be demanding and unpredictable, but find the enjoyment that is there in it. I know it's very hard at this stage of life to find the time and energy to meet your own needs, because you may be always putting yourself last. Just avoid the trap of expecting your spouse to be the agent that meets your needs -- some of that you have to do yourself. (I'm thinking if you can sometimes get a break from childcare to do work in the garden exactly the way you want it, that's more likely to be successful than issuing detailed instructions to your husband. When exact results are important to you, it is less stressful/risky to do it yourself.)

See if you can understand the POV being expressed by others (on this list or your husband) without needing to elaborately defend your position. (I admit it is quite a challenge.)

Betsy

[Sandra Dodd]

-=- Sandra, when are you going to start podcasting??!-=-

You can buy Peaceful Parenting on cassette tape for $7.50, and I have
about a dozen left. When those are gone I expect to just recommend
the one from this last Live and Learn conference instead (so I hope
it was recorded and came out well).

There's one thing to listen to online or to download here:
http://sandradodd.com/radio

Sandra

[Sandra Dodd]

-=- A
lot of us believe that you won't get to a better place without being
happier and expecting less.
-=-

And what happens with that is not what you might expect or guess.
The resistant guess is that you'll have to fake happy your whole
life, and settle for never getting anything.

But what really happens is that after a while (not days, but months
and years as things change) you start finding that everyone around
you is happier too, and that you start being surprised by little
things you never would have "expected." If your image of the future
and of others' behavior is too pre-formed, you will see all their
actions as "wrong." If you look instead toward finding joy in what
they actually DO do, and the ways they actually become, then they can
be themselves and you can love their real selves.

-=- Read some stories about teenage unschoolers and see
how much they give back to their parents.-=-

Marty, Holly and I just went on a road trip to a wedding in Silver
City. Marty's 17 and Holly's 14 (15 in November). It's a five and
a half hour drive or so, and then we needed to share a hotel room.

It was very, very comfortable. It was peaceful. It was fun. Marty
did all the driving. We were in a Saturn sedan, Holly in the back,
sleeping some, awake some. We listened to things we all liked, we
stopped anytime anyone wanted to stop, we took pictures (some are
here and some not yet uploaded http://sandradodd.blogspot.com ).
After the wedding, Marty wanted to find the graveyard of that VERY
small town (half a mile by a quarter mile or so was the entire town
of Santa Clara, which used to be called "Central"). Holly had no
interest in a graveyard. She stayed in the car, and neither of us
tried to persuade her to get out; it was fine.

I was willing to sleep with Holly. They were full beds, not queens.
But Marty offered to sleep on the floor, so we used the bedspreads
and the blankets from the car to make him a soft nest between the
other two beds. There was no arguing, it was all agreement.

Those conditions arose from years of me trying to make them
comfortable and not *making* them do things they didn't want to do
whenever it was possible to find another way. But I did the same way
with my husband, I tried not to push him past his comfort level, and
tried to be generous with him whenever possible, and remember he had
his own emotional hurts and needs even though he wasn't likely to
talk about them.

So my husband didn't complain about the cost of a wedding gift and a
hotel room. He was just glad the three of us could fulfill the
family's social obligation, and he could stay home and work on a
wooden bench he's making, and watch a movie.

On the way home, Holly was sleeping with her face in the sun. We
pulled over and stuck cloth out the window to make a shade. Little
things like that help. I learned the trick from my parents, on long
trips to see my two sets of grandparents when I was little, but they
wouldn't do it unless kids were begging and crying and fighting from
sunshine. I remembered it and we did it as soon as we noticed sun
on her face. She didn't even have to wait until she woke up hot.

Because of that, my kids were concerned with my comfort, too.
Generosity becomes a part of the air of the family, if someone starts
the generosity building up. If you demand someone "do his
part" (spouse or child), you're already dividing up your assets.

If you operate as a team instead of as adversaries, with your
children, that works best.
It works best with husbands, too.

Sandra

[Sandra Dodd]

-=- I'm

saying I want to figure out how to fix this, and

that means looking at the situation from all

relevant perspectives.

-=-

And if you don't see relevance in the things I'm suggesting you reject them without looking.

Your childhood unhappiness is the biggest example.

Someone else mentioned you might want to not respond so quickly.

I agree.

It would be better for you to at least PRETEND to think about the words for a while instead of rejecting them immediately.

That's true on this list, and true in conversations with husbands.

Maybe if you plan to pretend to be carefully considering,  you'll actually do it.

I don't need ANY of the answers to the questions I've asked you.  

You need all of those answers, percolating inside you.

-=-Could you try to relax and let ideas flow by

you instead of trying to

bat some away and strangle the others?

Again, I'm hungrily gathering ideas from all,

including you.

-=-

"INCLUDING YOU" is insulting.

Responding (with "Again..." which also adds insult) instead of actually DOING the thing 

(relax and let ideas flow by)

is NOT an indication that the information on the list is doing you any good whatsoever.

Luckily for the list, the discussion is likely to do some other read a great deal of good.  Maybe several readers.

-=-

I think you're either unsure of that you think,

or you're just

claiming thoughts without having thoughts.

Could be.  Who can say?-=-

Well, I said it.  I said I think, from things you chose to write and chose to post that it seems you're very unclear.

If it's true, it's true, and you need to examine that, in yourself, by yourself, not keep nattering on about it to the list.

Your responses are not communicative or analytical.  They're defensive.  It's worth listening to yourself at home and see if you do the same things with your husband and children.

-=-I repeat - -=-

Stop.  Stop reapeating.  Stop beginning your statements with things like 

I repeat...

Again...

See...

Again...

and

Please see my last response.   We're not studying you like a bug.  We're trying to put out the kinds of ideas that can make your life easier, that can create a nest in which unschooling can flourish.   http://sandradodd.com/nest

I see on the incoming mail list you've written MANY many more times.  I will send this anyway, because I think it might help you, and will definitely help others.

The negativity isn't worth defending.

hmmmm....

                    Namaste.

======================================

What do you intend to mean by "Namaste" when you use it?

[That is not a question for you to answer on the list . It's a question for you to consider privately.]

[Sandra Dodd]

-=-

> Same thing with the messages here. If you're
> unhappy with one, don't
> write back immediately.
>

I'm getting the impression that my words are
coming across in a different way than I feel I'm
communicating them. I think the responses have
been great. I thought I wrote that, but maybe I
didn't. I don't feel upset by anything that's
been said, just glad people are taking the time
to try to help me. Maybe what I'm thinking of as
discussion is coming across as arguing. NOT the
intention. Sounds like there's evidence of MY
role in the communication breakdown. Now how to
fix it......-=-

Shhhhhhhhh
Shhh

Hush.

That's what people want.

Don't write back immediately.

You haven't left time for even a pretense of having read the links
I've sent.
You haven't left time for even a pretense of having gone away and
thought about what was said.
When people write "Try..." you write "Good idea."

No, they didn't ask you to tell them if it was a good idea. They
said TRY this.

Go away from the computer and try being this different way, and tell
us in a few days or a week or a month if it helped.

You can't say, without leaving, that this is helping. It wouldn't be
true.

If can only be true if you do it and then let us know.

Telling us you're glad for the discussion is irritating. The only
way on earth that this isn't a total waste of our time is if you go
away from the list and interact differently with your family.

-=- I think the responses have been great. I thought I wrote that,
but maybe I didn't. -=-

Shhhhh...

Writing it isn't the proof. RESPONDING (in your life, in your
thoughts, in your actions) to the responses would be the way to show
us you think it's great.

-=- Stephanie Jackson, Mommie to Clara Rhyse and Bella Pearl
Learning Through Living-=-

Go and live.
Learn these things through trying them and seeing them work, and then
you can come and help other parents get through rough spots.

Have you

> discussed your unhappiness with him?
>

Yes and no. I got so tired of feeling like I was
speaking very precisely and him either reading
into what I was saying or just shutting off
altogether, then things getting ugly, that I just
quit trying. I know that's not okay.

If you feel you're speaking very precisely with this list
and we're reading into what you're saying
or shutting off

then you should study (quietly, yourself, at home) this whole
exchange and see whether you're doing the same things at home.
Our 'reading in' of what you're saying is much more valid than your
explanations of what you meant to convey.

Words here are chosen (by you)
written down (by you)
posted (by you)
so don't blame us for seeing them clearly.

Words you speak aloud are chosen and spoken.
Be very careful what you speak.

Sandra

[Sandra Dodd]

-=-. If you

> wouldn't treat a
> child in a certain way, why would you treat your
> husband that way? If
> you know a child is not capable of dressing himself,
> would you stand
> by and insist that he do? Wouldn't you just dress
> him? Or find ways

> that he doesn't need to dress?-=-

Twice in the past year Keith has been hurt. Last Spring he broke his
arm, a light break, but he didn't want to get a cast because that
would make it hard to work. So he took care of it himself, which
scared me and irritated me, but he is VERY aware of what's inside
him, and how all his tendons and muscles work, and he knew what would
make that worse and what would make it better. I helped by buying
extra Ace bandages and keeping them clean and rolled. I also made
sure his favorite clothes were clean and easy to get to.

More recently he twisted his back. Had a deep bruise right next to
his spine in his lower back.

Both times, I got up early every morning and helped him get dressed.
Mostly he needed help with his socks. I got up and put his socks on
him every morning. Sometimes his shoes too. Sometimes I put BenGay
on him. I would comb his (waist length) hair and put it up in the
little tied bundle that he wears when he goes to work. (He wraps it
around his hand and ties it off in the middle, like the men of Santo
Domingo Pueblo do, only Keith doesn't wrap his with string as they
do, just uses a black hairtie.)

Keith gets up between 5:00 and 5:30. I would get up when I heard
him get up. Sometimes it wasn't easy at ALL.

Insisting he go to the doctor wouldn't have changed anything; I would
still have been helping him if he'd had a cast or a brace.

I probably should have helped him more than I did.

So there was a husband not capable of dressing himself. And the
injuries both came from SCA fighting (medieval studies club, armor,
sticks). I could have been angry about that, because he didn't
*have* to have a hobby in which he can be injured. But he loves
that. I know. And he was going to work to make money so I can
continue to stay home with my kids, have a nice computer and talk to
you all.

He's helped me when I was injured too, when I broke my leg.

If we were divorced, who would help us?

Sandra

[Sandra Dodd]

Here is an example of defensiveness, rejection of information and
batting ideas away:

> Maybe he is communicating in the best way he
> knows how.
>

That's entirely possible.

Maybe it is

> you who aren't listening well enough.
>

That, too, is entirely possible, but honestly, I
think it goes beyond that. I don't believe it's
just me causing the problem. While it's
definitely both of us, and certainly not
intentional on either part, there are definitely
wide gaps in his communication.

==================

"BUT HONESTLY" means "no."

"I don't believe it's just me."

So? If it's PARTLY you, own that. You want to wait until he admits
50% for you to admit 50%.
That will not work. It's not helpful.

-=-While it's
definitely both of us,-=-

In your opinion.
If you want to change, change. If you change and he doesn't, you'll
still be better.

-=-here are definitely
wide gaps in his communication. -=-

That statement indicates that you did not read what the others wrote
about how men communicate, or that you haven't considered it carefully.
It seems to indicate that you feel that having responded, you don't
have to think about it any further.

This isn't a debate. We're already winners if our families are
successfully unschooling. You can't "win" or even score a single
point by asking insulting questions of me, or by ANY clever answer
you put forth here.

You came saying your family isn't happy or stable.

YOU are losing. Not against us, but against the forces of the
pressures of creating (CREATING, buiding, making, maintaining) a family.
We are throwing you nets, book references, ideas, tools and clues in
abundance, but you're throwing some back and letting the others sink
unseen.

The discussion here is not your marriage.
The discussion here is not even you.
You're throwing out a barrage of words without taking time to
consider them.

Sandra

[Pamela Sorooshian]

On Sep 25, 2006, at 9:43 PM, Stephanie Jackson wrote:

I'm so sorry if that's the impression you got. 

I'm not dismissing the consequences at all.  I'm

saying that not ALL marriages have to last

forever in order for the kids to be happy.

Divorce because mommy doesn't like the way daddy communicates is always going to mean the kids are less happy.

People can't know what unschooling is like until they do it - it doesn't "work" until it is a commitment - you can't say, "We're going to try unschooling for a year and see how it goes," because there is always the threat of school hanging over the kids' heads and that threat will destroy the unschooling atmosphere.

The same is true with marriage. If you are holding onto the idea that divorce is one of your options, it hangs around like a big huge dense fog bank - poisonous fog. As long as divorce is one of your options - one that you're actively considering - your marriage is not going to improve. 

If your husband is destructive in such a way that the KIDS would be better off without him in their daily lives, then by all means consider divorce. Otherwise, you married him, you made children, and you DO owe it to your children to be selfless enough to find a way around whatever obstacles you perceive as being in the way of YOUR happiness with him. Otherwise, you are choosing your happiness OVER your children's well-being. You can rationalize that all you want - convince yourself that there ARE children out there who are happy in spite of their parents' divorce, but you'll know, inside, that you were selfish and did not put your children first. Your happiness will be sullied by that knowledge.

IF you mentally commit to staying married to their father and to making the happiest home possible for them, you'll discover that there are many options that you haven't considered and you'll be better able to "hear" the ideas being offered to you here. You are engaging in a lot of all-or-nothing thinking, right now, and that is because you keep thinking, "I'll just leave," "I can't take this," "This isn't fair to me." And, finally, every time you think, to yourself, "I deserve to be happy, too!" then you're creating a dichotomy - "HE must change or I won't be happy." Not necessarily true. If you can truly give up the idea that he has to change in order for you to be happy (and not resentful) IN your marriage, you'll find out there are all kinds of good possibilities and your image of what you want is just one of those.

-pam

Unschooling shirts, cups, bumper stickers, bags...

Live Love Learn

UNSCHOOL!

<http://www.cafepress.com/livelovelearn>

[Pamela Sorooshian]

On Sep 26, 2006, at 3:04 AM, Schuyler Waynforth wrote:

"Husbands said that in most cases their actions said more than their

words. One husband said he expresses his love by filling up his wife's

car with gas and taking it to the mechanic for oil changes. Another

husband spoke of expressing his love by planning surprise weekend

get-aways with his wife. 

LOL - the Car Guys on PBS - told a story of a guy who was overwhelmed with love for his girlfriend. He was finding it very difficult to express his love - he stammered and blushed and finally looked her in the eyes and said, with feeling, "I'll get those rust stains off your car for you."

[Sandra Dodd]

>> Again, I see my children and dh as completely
>> separate entities. I will always do my best
>>
> to
>
>> give them what they need.
>>
>
> Has that point of view led you to happiness?
>

I can't say that it's "led me to happiness", but
I don't see that as relevant. I see my children
and dh as separate entities. They are my
children, and he is an adult.

Perhaps unschooling is too hard a concept for you. Not everyone can
do it. It does take a high level of creativity, flexibility, and self-
analysis.

If you can't see that your husband still has emotional needs and
preferences that it is your duty as a wife to attend to, maybe you
weren't old enough to get married. If you see your family made up
of two teams, the children and the adults, unschooling will be very
difficult for you. If you see your family made up of two teams, you-
and-children vs. husband-who-is-an-adult, marriage will be very
difficult for you.

-=-I'm honestly not sure how the focus of this
discussion became divorce. -=-

I'd bet money that everyone else here knows clearly and exactly why
the focus of this discussion is divorce.
If we all see it and you don't, might that mean you're not feeling
your own thoughts and reading your own words?

-=-I don't see that as relevant. -=-

You've used a phrase like this at least twice, maybe three or four
times.
If you don't see the relevance in the one second it takes you to
glance and respond, could you at least accept that we might know more
than you do about what makes unschooling and marriage work? Can you
accept that people here are trying to help you?
DO NOT ANSWER THIS QUESTION ON THIS LIST.
Take it and think about it.

-=-

So if I should be able to just ignore the

communication gap, how do things improve? -=-

Please re-read all of this thread.
All of it, slowly. Maybe twice.

-=- Thorough or inadequate communication

has far-reaching effects. How do you just ignore
that?

-=-

You have BEEN ignoring your contribution to the problem
Stop ignoring your inadequate communication.

Read the links people have sent.
Read the books people have recommended.
DO the things people have recommended.

-=-
THAT'S what I'm working toward. More slowly than
I'd like, but I'm still working. ;-)-=-

Don't smile about taking your time doing something that your children
need you to do quickly.
If you don't put your children first, unschooling will not work.

-=-I am sooooooo not trying to change the group to
meet my needs. I've seen enough posts to have an
idea what it's about, and I stayed because the
list serves a valid purpose.-=-

Wan praise, 'valid purpose.'

-=- I'm here to discuss
the relevant issues (in this case, marital
communication problems, changing perspective).
That does not mean that I'm going to just "lay
down and take it" when someone tries to beat me
down over something (divorce) that is not even
the point of the initial post. -=-

No one is trying to beat you down.
We're trying to communicate with you, and it should be of major
interest and enlightenment to you that you don't communicate as well
as you think you do, nor are you as aware of your own words as you
like to think you are.

Sandra

[Sandra Dodd]

-=-I'm so sorry if that's the impression you got.
I'm not dismissing the consequences at all. -=-

BULLshit.
Bull.
I will not go through and quote you. YOU go through and look at what
you are saying in public.

You're fllling up our list with something that isn't about
unschooling, it's about you.

We're responding in ways that could help you and you're not paying
attention to what you write nor to the responses.
You're apparently not re-reading what you write, either.

Sandra

[Sandra Dodd]

-=- I have to
find some way to be less selfish and more
independent at the same time. That's tricky.
-=-

It's part of being an adult.
You seem to be saying your husband is an adult and should act like
one, but maybe you're unclear on what that would be. Being less
selfish and more independent seem to be the very same thing. Are you
expecting your husband to take care of you as if you were a child, in
a way? Do you expect him to be a better dad to you than your own dad
was or something? There are oddities in what you write, seriously.
Don't answer these questions on the list. Just consider them in the
course of what you're working on in your life.

-=
The oddest thing is that he often talks to me
about his life outside the home, his
relationships with his friends, his interests,
personal issues. -=-

That's not odd.

Maybe if you practice communicating in the ways that he really wants
to, he'll be more willing to communicate about your topics.

Sandra

[Sandra Dodd]

> Wan praise, 'valid purpose.'
>

To you, perhaps. Lucky for me, we are individuals
who get to think for ourselves, have our own
opinions.

The purpose of the list is stated clearly here:
http://sandradodd.com/unschoolingdiscussion

http://sandradodd.com/lists/description

Sandra

[Tiffany ! :)]

Unschooling is a way of life. It requires a partner who is willing to work full time while we stay home with the kids. It's based on the premise that our kids are more important than anything else in our lives.....ever.   If your willing to risk the ability to unschool them at all, then go ahead and consider other options like divorce, etc. Personally, the damage the school system can do to my kids emotionally is way too high; therefore, I'm not willing to even consider it.    I stay married by making a mental grateful list- and being grateful that at this moment I don't have any real problems yet. I'm sure the problems I have (we all have them: aging family members, sicknesses/injuries, financial stress) but none of it prevents me from being grateful things aren't any worse at this moment- that's just life.   Commitment One, I married. Commitment Two, I had kids. Now, Commitment Two supercedes and reinforces Commitment One. At least until which point I no longer have Commitment Two to worry about.   When the Pastor married us he said marriage is a Journey, a Road to Self Discovery. He also told us our bodies belonged to each other. His is mine, and Mine is his. I don't know about you, but I'd rather not leave my body behind! ;)   Good Luck  & God Speed :)     -------Original Message-------

From: Stephanie Jackson Date: 09/26/06 10:48:58 To: Unschoolin...@googlegroups.com Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Re: Spousal/Partner Cooperation   > Here is an example of defensiveness, rejection > of information and > batting ideas away: > > > > > Maybe he is communicating in the best way he > > knows how. > > > > That's entirely possible. > > Maybe it is

Where's the part where I'm batting ideas away?

> > you who aren't listening well enough. > > > > That, too, is entirely possible, but honestly, > I > think it goes beyond that.  I don't believe > it's > just me causing the problem.  While it's > definitely both of us, and certainly not > intentional on either part, there are > definitely > wide gaps in his communication. > > ================== > > "BUT HONESTLY" means "no."

"But honestly" means "but honestly."

> "I don't believe it's just me." > > So?  If it's PARTLY you, own that.

I think that's what I'm doing. (While it's

> definitely both of us, and certainly not > intentional on either part, there are > definitely

> wide gaps in his communication.)  Would you rather I had said "It's all my fault, I'm such a terrible person, I don't deserve him"?   Baby steps.

> It seems to indicate that you feel that having > responded, you don't > have to think about it any further.

That's just not a valid assumption.  I am thinking about it nonstop.

> This isn't a debate.

That's great, because I am not a competitive person.  Just don't like it.   If you're expecting me to just sit back and absorb your personal attacks, it's not going to happen.  I'm here for the ideas, not to please you.  If you're tired of discussing it, maybe it's time for you to just stop.  If anyone else has any input, I'd love to hear it.  If not, then that's great, too.  I've already got a lot to process.   Thanks again to all!                       Namaste.

Stephanie Jackson, Mommie to Clara Rhyse and Bella Pearl   Learning Through Living

We don't inherit the Earth from our parents. We borrow it from our children.                         __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com

[Joyce Fetteroll]

On Sep 26, 2006, at 1:12 PM, Stephanie Jackson wrote:

Would you shush your husband?  Your kids?  For

expressing thanks for the generosity of others?

If my daughter kept worrying at something with words instead of just doing it, it's quite possible I would. It feels like you're using reading as a defense against doing. (You posted several emails between 8 and midnight and then between 9 and 2. Working at it takes more than reading and collecting good ideas. Being an idea collector myself, I know I can spend hours preparing and researching as a way to avoid actually doing it.

So: Go. Do.

"There is no try. Only do." Yoda

Joyce

[Su Penn]

On Sep 26, 2006, at 1:12 PM, Stephanie Jackson wrote:

>
>> Shhhhhhhhh
>> Shhh
>>
>> Hush.

>
> Would you shush your husband? Your kids? For
> expressing thanks for the generosity of others?

People do me, in a very loving way, because when I am sorting out a
question or making a big decision I can talk and talk and talk and
think and think and think about it without getting anywhere. My
partner David will say, "You're fretful. Why don't you go to sleep
now, and think about it again in the morning when you're fresher?" My
friend Adrianne will say, "I wonder if you just need to stop thinking
about this question for awhile." Quakers will say, "Let's sit with
that in silence for a bit and see what comes up." When people who
love me perceive that I might benefit from giving my mind and mouth a
rest, from taking some time for quiet reflection--or for something
more refreshing than that--they tell me so.

I'm not Sandra; I don't speak as directly as she does. But I would
float the question for private consideration of whether questions are
being answered too quickly, without reflection. What is most useful
for you? Spending time responding on the list to people you think
might be off-base, or spending time thinking about what has been
said, or trying a new kind of action based on it?

When I have asked for help on this list or AlwaysUnschooled, there
are always a lot of answers. Some are immediately useful; some ask
probing questions that don't really apply to my situation (but that
might bring an a-ha to someone following the conversation); some ask
probing questions that I don't _think_ apply to my situation but that
later turn out to be very relevant. Sometimes I get defensive even
though I'm the one who asked for help; it's best if I keep my
defensiveness off the list. It's also best to let the conversation
run a bit without me; once the idea is out there, it doesn't have to
stay about me and only me. I usually try to just listen for awhile.
Maybe I'll post a general thanks later, or, if a piece of advice I
received allowed me to transform a difficult moment with my son into
a joyful one, I'll tell about that.

I've come to this list and AlwaysUnschooled a number of times with
problems that seemed intractable to me--and almost always with a wish
that I could somehow get _Eric_ to change. But nobody here ever
responds with advice about how to compel a change in another person.
They ask me to consider how I can change my own behavior or ideas. I
remember once being irritated by something Eric was doing that he
thought was funny, and someone asked me, "Has it occurred to you that
maybe it _is_ funny?" I had to sit with that one a long time.

I talked the other day about what a gift it was being very sick
during my pregnancy with Eric. One gift was having to learn to give
up control; another was realizing how wedded I was to the idea that I
was the only civilizing influence in my house, that if it weren't for
me, David and our friend Scott would live like barbarians, that I was
the only one standing between them and complete collapse of
standards. I felt martyred, but there's also a lot of power in ideas
like that. When I perceived something as a problem and they didn't, I
was exasperated that they would not come into line with my superior
understanding of things (I still sometimes get irritated with David
when he won't worry about something as much as I do!). The conviction
of my superiority and my indispensibleness (what the hell word am I
looking for there?) was hard to let go of. I'm not sure I could have
let go of it without those months of being almost completely useless,
being forced to see that Scott and David were entirely capable of
running a household without me.

Su

[Hm...@aol.com]

Is "divorce" is something that you used to try get your dh to listen and take you seriously? It's easy to say when it's on your mind. If you did and your feeling bad about that tell him don't stew. Say it now, do it now, live it now.

 

I realize that divorce wasn't the main part of your post but it is possibly the main part that needs change before unschooling can happen.

For whatever reason you see your family in crisis, your dh needs fixing of some sort and you want to unschool your children.

You can do this all at once by changing what YOU do and what YOU see as in need of repair.

 

Take today, change what your doing and make it work. Cook a different meal, take a bath, be with your DH peacefully and hug your girls. Life is what you make it and YOU can change you.

 

 

Laura

Unschoolingmaine.com

 

‘It's never enough to just tell people about some new insight. Rather, you have to get them to experience it a way that evokes its power and possibility. Instead of pouring knowledge into people's heads, you need to help them grind anew set of eyeglasses so they can see the world in a new way."
— John Seely Brown - US researcher/author (Xerox)

 

[Sandra Dodd]

-=-

>
>> Shhhhhhhhh
>> Shhh
>>
>> Hush.
>>
>
> Would you shush your husband? Your kids? For
> expressing thanks for the generosity of others?

> -=-

I've put Stephanie on moderation and asked her to just post once or
twice a day.
The post from which the above is quoted didn't come in my e-mail.

I wasn't saying "Shhhh" about expressing thanks.
I was saying 'Shhh' about too much response.

One of the other moderators wrote this but didn't send it after the
moderation went into effect. She offered to let other moderators
quote it.

=======================
>> This makes sense to me.<<
>>

Please stop replying to every paragraph that's written with your
judgement about whether the sentences in it are valid or not. You
can nod or shake your head in disagreement, but you are using the
list very inefficiently. Try to remember that many hundreds of
people read this list. Please reflect on what is said quietly. Talk
to your cat if you have to. But don't talk back to every single
point from every poster. Some of the things you quote are valuable
to be repeated internally many times but don't need to be requoted to
the list and given a thumbs up or thumbs down. People read them the
first time. Please be considerate of other people's time. (I'm
trying to get out the door this morning and it looks like I'm going
to be late.)

=========================

This is me again.
If I didn't have time to stand outside while my husband climbed up
and cut two branches I had wanted cut (which would take less than an
hour) I wouldn't feel I had time to go to yoga classes.

If I thought the yoga teacher was wise and wonderful and my husband
was a putz, I would consider dropping that yoga class and hanging out
at home more. Seriously.

Someone talked about unschooling taking a commitment. It does, but
not until the kids are school age. Until that point, it's just good
parenting without school as an issue or non issue.

Sandra

[Robyn Coburn]

I have been reading this thread and I have noticed one book not mentioned. A
few years ago I got a lot out of "Men Are From Mars; Women Are From Venus".
It has been around so long as to seem almost a cliched idea, but it did help
me.

It helped me when I was looking back at moments of disastrous communication
breakdowns in past relationships so that I could really see how it wasn't
what "he" (the many different "he's") was saying, but what I was hearing, or
not hearing. The book helped me very much to re-evaluate the past, as well
as move forward.

Stephanie, I bet you are a person who likes filling in answer forms. I bet
if a self-help type book has exercises and short answer quizzes you enjoy
doing those. I do too a lot of the time. You might try Marianne Williamson
and Barbara Sher whose books also often include that kind of work. Many of
these writers suggest keeping a journal. I never like to, but it might help
you get your need for expression filled.

Many people are pushing you a bit. Like getting a massage - the place where
the pain is, is the place where the knot is that needs kneading.

I agree with Sandra (who you will recall is a list owner). It is time to
stop replying to every little idea and suggestion. We will not be offended
if you don't keep on thanking us!!

Re-read. Notice how often you are having to (feeling you have to) come back
and re-express an idea, qualify your prior statements, have written
something along the lines of "that isn't what I meant" or "you aren't
hearing me". Maybe the "fault" really is more in *your* expression, not
everyone else's (including your dh's) listening.

Maybe your dh is saying "stop and really listen to me" in some Marsish male
manner, but you have an insatiable need to keep on talking to him in your
favorite Stephanie-from-Venus manner.

One of the things I do in Unschooling with Jayn is ask myself whether my
need to be heard, to keep talking, is really going to *help Jayn* understand
my point, my information, or help her gain empathy for my feelings. Usually
the answer is NOT AT ALL.

When does "talking to" become "talking at"? When Jayn stops listening.
When does talking to become a lecture? When Jayn already knows the
information, but has some emotional need that overrides her intellectual
knowledge.

Sometimes it is better to go over and touch her shoulder than keep on
calling her name over and over.

Jayn's avoidance/not want to listen behaviors are really obvious. Usually I
take them as a call to stop talking at her (emergency situations exempt).
That gives her the opportunity to come back to me later when she is ready to
hear.

It might be more useful to report (or just record for yourself and your
future evaluations) the next actual conversation with dh with that
dissatisfies you, rather than more hypotheticals (like the sky and the the
storm idea).

Robyn L. Coburn

--
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[kash...@mac.com]

Stephanie,

You have received an unbelievable wealth of responses and information.
I am reading this thread and finding so many nuggets of wisdom.

When you were dating your husband, or possibly before the children
arrived, did you have gaps in communication? Or is this a recent
development? I am wondering if you are both so overwhelmed with just
the day-to-day of family life, work, nursing, etc., that it is possible
that things are slipping, and communication is one of them.

If it did happen before, were you able to just wave it away as no big
deal? Or was it an issue then? I think looking back at your
relationship to a time that might have been less stressful could help
to understand whether the communication difficulty was there, or if it
is a newer development. Also, looking at your response during a
different time (if the response was different), could also help you to
see how your responses now might also be situational. Certainly people
make poor choices in marriage partners, but people also change, as a
result of their situations. If you can see that, you might be able to
see the possibility of it being better in the future. For example, on
a different day in your relationship, you might have been filled with
joy about the gift of the trees, regardless of where they were placed.
If it could have been wonderful then, then this is situational, and it
can get better with time and practice, right?

Do the miscommunications happen daily? Weekly, monthly? If they are
happening daily, then perhaps it would be wise to seek out some sort of
counseling or therapy. I think you can get a lot out of lists and
reading, but perhaps your situation could need more.

Perhaps you could start with asking your husband if you heard something
wrong, or if there is a way that he would feel better about
communicating. You could also say "honey, when we talked the other day
about xyz, I thought I heard you say abc - did I hear you wrong?" I
have learned, surprisingly recently, that there are certain times that
my husband cannot "hear" requests, and I am learning to ask him for
specific answers if I need them, in a gentle way.

I may be making assumptions regarding your personal situation, but I
know that about a year ago, with 3 kids, one of them 1.5yo, I felt at
times like I was drowning. I was getting very little sleep (1 nursing,
1 bedwetting, 1 getting adult teeth, no sleep <g>), nursing seemingly
all the time, my house was a disaster even with cleaning help, and
although I was doing all the things that seemed normal, inside, on some
days, I felt like it was insurmountable. I can say too, that things
that my husband did not do right were just the topping on the cake of
disappointment. I never really criticized him or fought with him, but
just felt disappointed a lot. I thought at the time that it must
somehow be easier for him to leave the house for the day, be with
adults and have control over his situation. That is pretty
embarassing for me to write, because it seems to show a lack of
sensitivity on my part, but what it also shows is how far "out of it" I
was from just being drained - I had nothing to give, and couldn't be
the good communicator that he needed in order to be a good communicator
with me, kwim?. Please have mercy on both yourself and your husband.
My dh had a conversation with his boss one night, and was telling me
about it, and I realized that he was "drowning" too. Unfortunately his
boss only criticized him and suggested how to change, when really what
he needed was a lifeline and support to get through a really busy,
challenging time. That was a huge turning point in our situation, and
I have been able to feel much differently about his little "errors",
knowing that he is less than perfect and could "drown" too. I also
felt more jointly responsible for our income, given that any stress
that he felt at home would come with him to work, and make it even more
difficult for him to perform in an already stressful environment.

I think that there could be a huge link between how YOU feel
physically/mentally, and how you are interpreting the communication
between your husband and yourself. If you can have patience for the
next 6 months or so, and focus on taking care of yourself with rest and
a little bit of relaxation time, you may feel very differently and have
a different outlook regarding your communication.

You mention feeling like you need to take on more in order to do the
things that your husband can't or won't do for you. Is there something
that you can take "off" your plate, in order to feel like you have the
mental flexibility to do those things? Are you holding yourself to
higher than necessary standards in other areas?

I think the word expectations has been mentioned several times. Wow,
if I had to put one thing on the top ten list, it would be to manage
those. When we are single and on our own, it is so easy to move in a
direction that meets our expectations. When we think of life as a
family, we take little snippets of what we think family is, from our
own observations of others, tv, movies, etc. Even though many of us
acknowledge that our own childhoods were less than perfect, we still
reach for those high expectations in our own families, and for good
reason, to improve things that we can.

However, those high expectations of the perfect family life can be so
damaging, and get in the way of enjoying the reality that you have.
The thing I've learned over the last few years, is that the joy in
parenting isn't coming from those big "perfect family" moments. It's
coming from little silly things that happen when no one is paying
attention, and they are just a gift to me. If I am busy fighting to
meet my expectations of perfect mom, perfect wife, clean house, x
activities per week, I am not mentally around to see those little tiny
moments - they are quiet and don't try to upstage other things, they
just happen, and if I'm ready to enjoy them, I get to add them to my
pile. If I'm not ready to enjoy them, they just pass by and are
ordinary. But again, I know what it's like not to be in a position to
be able to see them - that has only become more of a reality in the
last few months or so.

I wish you the best,

Kelly

[Sandra Dodd]

-=-I may be making assumptions regarding your personal situation, but I

know that about a year ago, with 3 kids, one of them 1.5yo, I felt at
times like I was drowning. I was getting very little sleep (1 nursing,
1 bedwetting, 1 getting adult teeth, no sleep <g>), nursing seemingly

all the time,-=-

Most of the people on this list have felt that way, been in a
situation like that, and many still are!

Kirby is five and a half years older than Holly. I had three and
felt like I was nursing all the time, getting very little sleep and
that was with other people's arms and legs on me, and...

-=- my house was a disaster even with cleaning help, and...-=-

Yeah, my house was a disaster and...
What?
CLEANING HELP!?

Hey, that's cheating! <bwg>

Somewhere in the flood of the morning, something snarky was said
about my being with Keith a long time, as though that made it easy.
That is wrong, wrong, wrong.

I've been married to Keith for 22 and a half years. We were together
for six years before we got married. So we've been together nearly
30 years.

Things had to be good a long, LONG time ago or we wouldn't have been
together now. And there are people married 25 or 30 years who then
divorce, so we're not through being considerate of one another yet!

So to tie the two things above together, I would like to say that
today isn't the first day my suggestions have been pooh-poohed on the
grounds that I can't understand younger marriages because I've been
married a long time.
And it has also often been suggested I can't understand having two
little children because mine are teens.

I had three little children, and I was younger and married a shorter
time. Twice. One worked better than the other. I do have real-life
experience and am not giving advice for $6 an hour or because of a
vow I took as a nun or any other such reason to give advice. I'm
giving advice about unschooling because when families do the things
they need to make unschooling work, their kids are happier, and that
makes me feel good. I'm helping other people because I found a way
to make unschooling work and I am willing to help others get there too.

Sandra

[LJ Stewart]

-=- A
lot of us believe that you won't get to a better place without being
happier and expecting less. .
-=-

I started working towards this several years ago and continue to see
benefits everyday. I didn't put it this way but as accepting people as they
are now and letting them do what they wanted with no guilt or pressure.

There is a saying "If you always do what you've always done then you'll
always get what you always got" translation- if trying to make everyone live
up to your expectations then you'll pretty much end up disappointed and
maybe its time to try and new tactic.

I

This was a VERY difficult thing for me to do. I had lived so long trying to
"manage" every one and everything around me and was a basket case- something
had to let go- and relieving myself of the pressure of running the world was
a big stress reducer :)

Like Sandra the biggest "surprise" is family harmony- other family members
and friend seem shocked at all the long drives we take (we camp a lot with
trailer) and joke about all the arguing that must go on- the truth is pretty
much none- we eat when we are hungry get out to stop at a park when kids
want to run around., no one tries to orchestrate a "perfect" family
vacation.

My husband works at home , I work as a writer in wee hours of the night -
people always rarely say "wow, how great!" but will usually say something
like-" gee- that must be tough" It's not .

[mamaa...@yahoo.com]

> -=- A
> lot of us believe that you won't get to a better place without being
> happier and expecting less. .
> -=-
>
> I started working towards this several years ago and continue to see
> benefits everyday. I didn't put it this way but as accepting people as they
> are now and letting them do what they wanted with no guilt or pressure.

Dh is off work this week and next. He's doing a lot around the house.
I'm having to take lots of deep breaths because there's one task that
I've been asking him to do for a couple months and he still hasn't done
it.

We have wire cubes that snap together to hold lots of toys. I am just
not strong enough to put them together. He and I both want the toys
organized, I mention (gently) almost every weekend that I'll get to
organizing as soon as the bins are ready.

I really wish that he would hear how much I want this done and want to
meet this need. Meanwhile, I can either be upset by it or choose to
work at staying calm. He is how he is right now and I can't change it.

I would also like to be able to talk about it and find out why we're
not on the same page. I haven't had much success getting him to explain
where he's coming from and why he doesn't do it. He shrugs and says
there isn't a reason. I know that he (and ds1) both tend to clench
internally when they feel pressure to do something.

--aj

[Jen Van Den Hoogen]

unsubscribe

Jennifer Van Den Hoogen, Cn & TS student

[Opal Dreaming]

Phew! Just caught up. =)

I wanted to say thanks to all who participated in
this conversation.
Wow! =)
As usual, such wisdom! And so many practical ways to
apply it.
My understanding deepens and, for this, I am always
grateful. =)

Thank you...
All of you...
=D

Peace,
Opal

Some people mistake being loving for being a sap.
Quite the contrary, the
most loving people are often the most fierce and the
most acutely armed for
battle... for they care about preserving and
protecting poetry, symphonic
song, ideas, the elements, creatures, inventions,
hopes and dreams, dances
and holiness... those goodly endeavors that cannot be
allowed to perish from
this earth, else humanity itself would perish...
[Clarissa Pinkola Estes. The Dangerous Old Woman.]

____________________________________________________
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Answers: 25 million answers and counting. Learn something new today
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[Kathleen Whitfield]

on 9/28/06 9:02 AM, mamaa...@yahoo.com at mamaa...@yahoo.com wrote:

> We have wire cubes that snap together to hold lots of toys. I am just
> not strong enough to put them together. He and I both want the toys
> organized, I mention (gently) almost every weekend that I'll get to
> organizing as soon as the bins are ready.

Would you consider asking for (or paying for) help from someone other than
your dh?

Kathleen
in SoCal

[Sandra Dodd]

-=-If she were to do that and he were to resent her
actions, what should she do?-=-

\Who knows?
We can't hold people's hands through situations, we can discuss ideas.

Sandra

[Deb Lewis]

***Would you consider asking for (or paying for)

help from someone other than

your dh?***

Get a friend to help. Make a cake, put on a pot of coffee, call your
friends over for help and get it done.

I don't understand the whole waiting for dh to help deal. I'm not saying
do a bunch of stuff to your house your husband wouldn't like, but for pity's
sake, if you need a thing done THEN DO IT. Your husband doesn't have the
only other pair of hands in the county.

***If she were to do that and he were to resent her
actions, what should she do?***

Resentment over storage cubes?

If a dh was resentful over storage cube construction then I'd apologize and
maybe be especially nice to him -offer him some of that cake - because
resentment over storage cubes seems kooky and I'd suspect he had something
else bothering him like bad day at work, headache, something.

Now, if the guy won't put them together because he doesn't like them or
doesn't think they're a good idea then get something different/better for
storage.

If you wait for your husband to help you and he doesn't that means it's not
your fault things are disorganized. If you're trying not to feel bad about
yourself for letting things get wild, then fix the problem. Don't look for
someone to pin it on. There's no need for blame.

Deb L, whose dog just had chicken soup and is now using her leg as a napkin.

[majikfaerie]

I've been reading this thread so avidly as it unfolded, and just now
plowed through the whole lot again as one piece (PHEW!)
For me, its been a wonderful learning experience.
Stephanie (I dont know if you're still reading here) but I realised I
do have something to share:
until a few months ago, I really was in the same position as you. A
really crappy marriage with a husband who doesnt communicate. (my
daughter is also only 3.5).
I felt all the time like DH wasn't listening to me, and he NEVER did
ANYTHING right.
and to add to it, DH's first language is not english, so we really get
into some communication gaps - you'd be surprised how many of our
fights eventually get resolved when we realise that DH has a false
understanding of a word!

I wasn't in love with this man when I married him, but I was young,
flat broke and pregnant, and he was rich and insisting on "doing the
right thing".
The first year and a half, (until dd was 12 months old), we fought
constantly. I examined every sentence DH uttered and every action he
did and found fault with everything. nothing was ever good enough for
me (yes, I am exagerating a bit for poetic effect, I do mean ALMOST
everything, but it really was a bad space). And I honestly could not
see that I was doing it. I really thought that everything was his
fault for being a bad communicator, for being illogical and stupid. He
did things like putting trees in places where I didnt want them, but he
always had his own logical reasons for doing it, and couldnt understand
why I would go totally apeshit at him.

Eventually, he felt like it was too much, everything he did was wrong,
and I was shouting at him constantly. we broke up just after dd's 1st
birthday, and didnt see each other for 5 months.

When I brought DD to visit her dad, we ended up back together, and
everything was just the same. We were (still are) living in a country
that I really dislike (Israel), and life is a big struggle for me, I
dont speak the language, dont understand the culture, cant do simple
things to help in daily life (like looking in the yellow pages to get a
plumber, etc), and have to 'deal' with a fussy toddler who nurses *all
the time*...
I blamed DH for all of this, we fought all the time, he still felt like
nothing was ever good enough for me.

We stuck through it all and even went to couples therapy (and quit),
and are still together, for the sake of our DD having 2 parents.

Fast forward a bit, 2 months ago, a good friend of mine commented that
she was uncomfortable to be around us, as we were fighting all the
time, every comment that came out of DH's mouth was followed by some
derrogatory remark from me. I constantly complained about him and
insulted him behind his back.

This was a big wake up for me ( I guess it had been brewing for a long
time ;-) )
I suddenly realised that *I* was the one who expected too much. I made
a consious decision to BE NICE to my DH, to stop expecting everyting to
be the way *I* thought it should be. I held my tongue everytime a
negative comment came to mind, and after a week or so, they stopped
coming up. I started to compliment DH on any and every little thing I
could notice, i turned insults into praise. (ie, instead of "why did
you plant the tree there? I wanted it over here, you stupid..."
switching it to "wow, thanks so much for doing the work. What made you
decide to plant them here?" and many times I found that DH *did* have
some thought and ideas that were valid. sometimes I could accept that
he had a point, and concede, sometimes I shared my idea and we talked
about it openly.)

I learned to be SILENT.
my dh tends to think a lot before he speaks, and especially as it's not
in his mothertongue, it can take a while before he formulates his
thoughts. I used to say something, and then after the 'standard' 2
seconds had passed without DH saying anything, I would think he wasnt
listening, so I'd repeat and rephrase myself, and so on, getting in to
an endless monologue, and getting more and more frustrated with DH for
not communicating. but the truth was, he just couldnt get a word in
edgewise.

Really, sometimes it takes him 2 minutes, or even 5 or 10 minutes to
reply. but I found this amazing peace in just WAITING, giving him the
chance to speak. The funny thing is, a lot of our arguments, I make
some statement, 3 minutes later he answers, but in the meantime, i had
time to reflect, and think, and realise that I *was* overreacting after
all, that such-and-such wasnt so important, that his POV was relevant
and intelligent.

I can honestly say, that after being married to this man for almost 4
years, I have fallen in love with him!! :D

Now, reading this thread, I can see so clearly the position in which
you stand, having been in a similar place very recently (recently
enough to still have half a toe there from time to time ;-) ) and I can
see the value of all the replies you got here on this list.

It really isnt necessary to reply to every single paragraph, and
dissect and judge it as relevant or pointless. There is no reason to
become defensive and aggressive (and believe me, I know it can be very
hard to realise when one is being defensive and aggressive!). There is
no reason to be so critical, (and I know it's a really hard habit to
break).

These people have given you amazing advice. I beg you, take the time to
read carefully through this whole thread. if you've the time, cut and
paste all the suggestions (not the quotes and replies to replies, just
the suggestions) into one easy-to-read page and print it out.

Try some of these ideas out. Read these books. Talk to your DH
quietly and slowly, and give him time to respond, even if it takes a
week! DO NOT judge what he says, DO NOT analyse, dissect, criticize
what he says. Just take it, feel it, treat it as a seed, nurture it,
water and sun it, and give it time to germinate and grow before you
respond.

PLEASE, just try it. trust me, one day, it will just WORK!
really, you dont need to reply to this, (or anyone), just try it.

One quote I love:
"Our children are far more important than our vision of how we want
them to be." I just realised that this works for Husbands too!

Much love, and banana milkshake
Ela

[Kerrin Taylor]

> I don't understand the whole waiting for dh to help deal. I'm not
saying
> do a bunch of stuff to your house your husband wouldn't like, but for
pity's
> sake, if you need a thing done THEN DO IT. Your husband doesn't have the
> only other pair of hands in the county.>>>>>

I used to wait for dh to do jobs too. It was because he SHOULD do them!
So...there could be days or even weeks of me being resentful, nagging,
feeling hard-done-by and him passively/aggressively avoiding doing the job,
feeling put-upon and guilty.

We had a king of mental tally going of who did the most work That added up
to misery for everyone.

I found the same advice that many have given here and began to realize that
if I wanted something done it was up to me to do it, or of I couldn't, to
get it done. I've paid to have things repaired and discovered that there's
many more things I can do, than I thought I could.

After I began to change my relationship with my children to one of loving
and giving, I found I could do it with my husband too. I now know that I get
what I give. The more kind, gentle and loving I am to my dh, the more kind,
loving and gentle he is to me. I used to think he was a meanspirited,
selfish man, but he's not at all. He is so sweet to me! We used to fight,
now we can discuss issues and listen to each other. We have a great
marriage.

It's all thanks to unschooling. Unschooling has transformed my whole family
and my life way beyond what I ever hoped for or expected.

Kerrin.

[Cally Brown]

Kerrin Taylor wrote:

I used to wait for dh to do jobs too. It was because he SHOULD do them!
So...there could be days or even weeks of me being resentful, nagging,
feeling hard-done-by and him passively/aggressively avoiding doing the job,
feeling put-upon and guilty.

It's not just the practical jobs and such like that this attitude affects. My dh and I have never danced. We started going to our local jazz society once a month, and I eventually got fed up with just listening, and watching other people dance. I nagged and nagged and eventually a year and a half ago, dh agreed to go to a 10 lesson dance class. I was rapt! but when we got to the end he said, "Well, it wasn't as bad as I expected but I don't want to do it anymore." Thump! Serious downer as I hit the floor. I really thought (why???) that all it would take was for him to start learning and he'd be as keen as me. How dumb is that?

I felt really sad, and every so often I made snide little comments. Which, of course, just made him adhere more rigidly to his 'no'. I thought about going to dancing classes on my own, but realised that I didn't want to just dance; what I wanted was to dance with dh. So was it just a matter of wearing him down? Eventually I realised I didn't just want him to dance with me, I wanted him to dance joyfully with me. And then I realised that there was no way I could make him do that! (Yeah, ok, I'm a bit of a slow learner!!) So I stopped asking and niggling and thought I had let go of my wish.

Well, fast forward to last week. My 16 year old son and some of his friends decided to attend a ceroc (aka latin rock n roll?? I think??) class for teenagers. I took Jeff (16) and his friend A, (who were very nervous and are the least physically confident of the lot) to a casual adult class on the Monday night, and joined in just to help them feel better about being beginners. Well, they loved it and so did I. J and I practiced at home. Then Friday night was the teen class, upstairs. At the same time there was an 'everybody' class downstairs, as a prelude to the dance school's monthly dance. I asked DH if he'd like to come: just that, "this is what Jeff and I are doing, would you like to come too?", he said no thanks, and took off out to do some gorse slashing on our land - instead of sitting down and talking to me as he usually does - obviously to avoid nagging. I felt reall agrieved, as I hadn't mentioned it for ages.

I was still feeling cross when we got into town for Jeff's class and in an act of spite, I guess, decided to go to the downstairs class (and enjoyed it again), expecting to go home straight afterwards. But some of the teens decided they wanted to stay for the dance party, and when I agreed - one straight away asked me to dance with him. I spent the next 2 1/2 hours dancing with my son (16), and two other home/unschoolers aged 18 and 15. It was such fun, and I didn't care that the one not homeschooled boy in the group, and a lot of the other people there were giving us very strange looks (bear in mind I am 55!). Aren't our kids just so cool?

When we got home dh was grumpy - there was nothing decent to watch on tv, our other son (Steve, 23) and his partner had gone out, he'd been lonely. I just said, well, sorry, but we had lots of fun. Next day the 15 year old and his sister and father came over to ride motorbikes, but afterwards we started practicing the steps we learnt, and Jeff started teaching Steve and Heidi, while Mac and Phil watched. I said nothing to Mac, but afterwards he said, "Maybe Jeff could teach us too?" I just agreed, "Maybe". I'll let him make the move.

It seems it was only after that evening of dancing when I had fun, and realised that I could have fun doing this without him (even though I'd prefer to have fun with him) and truly let go of my need to make him change, that he felt able to see the possibility.

Cally

[Pamela Sorooshian]

On Oct 1, 2006, at 10:42 AM, Deb Lewis wrote:

***Would you consider asking for (or paying for)

help from someone other than

your dh?***

 Get a friend to help.  Make a cake, put on a pot of coffee, call your 

friends over for help and get it done.

I have those same snap-together kinds of cubes (had, pre-fire). Laura Derrick, someone who used to be very active on the unschooling message boards/lists and still shows up once in a while, put them all together for me. I couldn't do them without it hurting my fingers too much. I couldn't play with Knex, either, without pain. So - just saying - this is a GREAT idea.

-pam

Unschooling shirts, cups, bumper stickers, bags...

Live Love Learn

UNSCHOOL!

<http://www.cafepress.com/livelovelearn>

[Kiersten]

http://www.thework.com/DownloadWorkMaterials.asp
follow the link that says "little book".

This is a concrete way to examine how you feel about your partner and
how it is affecting you.
And how to choose to feel differently (if you wish to)

Kiersten

[Opal Dreaming]

> This is a concrete way to examine how you feel about
your partner and
> how it is affecting you.
> And how to choose to feel differently (if you wish
to)

Another brilliant resource for this is the book:

Loving Men More, Needing Men Less
By Judith Sills

It was a gift from a friend during a 'difficult' patch
& it transformed the way
I viewed romantic relationships. Later, when I came
to unschooling, I found a
lot of the principles were similar. Somewhere she
says something like: 'You
don't water the flower *if* it grows - You water the
flower *so it will* grow.'
I've quoted this often to myself & dh when doubts
creep in about unschooling.

Peace,
Col

'The difference between a flower and a weed is a
judgement'
[Unknown]

[ThatWoman]

mamaa...@yahoo.com wrote:
> What changes his mind about any subject? Actually, there's two
> questions: what does he think will change his methods and what do you
> think will work?
>

All of the points you make, mamaaj, are completely valid, from this
point of view. Having recently read Alfie Kohn's Unconditional
Parenting (and considering how global the material is in relationships
in general) I have a different place to stand to look at this. There
is one thing that arises in my mind, though: he doesn't want his mind
changed. People almost never do. I certainly wasn't prepared to change
my mind...

I'm a consensus-decision person... I like consensus a great deal for a
number of reasons, not the least because I think compromise is another
word for everybody loses. I believe it is possible to come to a
decision everyone agrees upon, only I believe it happens best (most
effectively, least resistance) by changing the decision to suit
everyone, rather than trying to change everyone's mind.
A long time ago, I observed that 'no one moves from a defensive
position.' I think that's a lot of where you were coming from -- meet
the detractor (whoever it may be, dh or otherwise) where he is. You
can't shout someone across a canyon, or convince them to walk across on
empty air... they need to find an effective path to where you are, and
given that you're there and they're here, chances are pretty good they
have a better idea of what steps they need to take first than, say *I*
do...

I have never tried to convince my husband (who for a very long time
remained unconvinced that 'this' would be a good idea... while also
choosing to spend no time at all researching the subject to become more
informed). I also didn't change my mind. Over the years, we spent a
lot of time 'meeting in the middle' for discussions -- questions,
ideas, criticism from who knows where, half-baked theories, fears and
anger.

What I eventually realized worked the best was meeting him where he
was... I could see the steps from his position, when I could see from
his perspective, THEN I could answer his real concerns, inform him in
small doses (is everyone here as guilty of TOO MANY WORDS to answer a
simple question as I am?!? <G>), and continue doing what I was doing
with a great respect for him and his reservations.

That is not to pretend for a moment that it was the first idea of how
to deal with it, or the most frequent -- just the most effective.
Growing up is sometimes very hard to do.

ThatWoman