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I was only pulling the Ibrahim Abdullah's leg.
Oh Gloria! So we love both him (Abdullah Ibra-him) ? That's good news coming from you. We have several friends in common, mostly here in Stockholm. Met him for the first time at a Fasching Concert to which I took the late Jeff Cartriers ( great jazz bassist from South Africa - also known as Ishmail) who was then in a wheel chair. Jeff was a friend of Elisabeth Palme – the wife of Olof Palme...that's just a small indication of how close the anti-Apartheid movement in Sweden was to the Swedish government. The cream of the still Stockholm based South African freedom fighters, musicians, poets, ideologues, grass root workers, future ambassadors etc. were at the concert I'm talking about and we sat at the high table with some of the great ones. During the break Jeff introduced me to Abdullah Ibrahim ( whose music I had been listening to for years) at which point - on being introduced to him, I recited one of his anti-apartheid poems to him, a poem I had read in “Transition Magazine “ or maybe “Black Orpheus” at the Institute of African Studies library in Ghana, in 1970 :
“Then
as now when
finger-touched
you moved your hand
away.”
and then immediately made the fatal mistake of attributing the poem to the name under which he had created it : Dollar Brand. (He hates that name). I've met some of the great South African and African American jazz musicians. It's a tough profession....
Here he is with Johnny : Abdullah Ibrahim & Johnny Dyani : Namhanje
Another favourite : Abdullah Ibrahim - Soweto/Dollar Brand - African Herbs
So many Swedish women that I know, are in love with that. South African jazz pianist ….
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By accusing Sweden, I hope that you get my point and a taste of how it feels to be falsely accused.
What do you (pl.) make of the following:
In The Name Of Allah - Booty Plunder & Loot in Muhammad's Islam
There's a lot of spurious, deliberate misinformation about Islam coming from some of the enemies of Islam. For instance, we know for a fact that people like Abu Bakr,al-Siddiq, Zubayr ibn al-Awam and Talha ibn Ubaydullah were millionaires by yesterday's and today's standards
Ibn Warraq tends to invoke “ethical relativism” as an excuse for that of which Islam is sometimes being accused.
So, if you could just provide some evidence to back your pious protestations and what you fear Swedes might do in the future, as guest in Mali, I'll be the last person to argue with you. There's another fear-monger Robert Fowler, in today's BBC Hardtalk; he fears that Islamic radicals are working on a plan to establish a caliphate that will extend from Mauritania to Somalia – he says that Boko Haram and allies are united in that sense of purpose
Dear Ibrahim Abdullah,
Of course in some war situations which get out of control, soldiers loot, rape and pillage. In some non-war situations that what some African governments are accused of doing, by their own people : looting their people’s treasuries, systematically . T It's a class of Africans known as the lootocracy . We could focus on those no good buggers instead.
I remember how I felt when I read this paragraph on page 16 of Solomon Nigosian's Islam: Its History, Teaching, and Practices the section on”Prophet and Statesman”:
“ The economic interests of Muhammed and his followers depended at first on local trade. Later, however,Muhammed approved raids, in normal Arab fashion, on caravans passing through or near Medina. He himself led three such raids in 623, all of which failed. A year later he led some 300 men to attack a wealthy Meccan caravan returning from Syria with a supporting force of over 900 men. The two forces faced each other near a place called Badr. In the ensuing battle the Meccans were badly defeated. This success appeared to Muhammed as a divine vindication of his prophethood. Moreover it encouraged him to lead larger Muslim forces on preemptive raids against hostile nomadic tribes.” (and the next couple of paragraphs) which all lead to discussions of “ethical relativism” of the type Ibn Warraq raises in several of his writings
I don't suppose that you are proud of the looting done by the conquering Muslim armies in early Islam; quite on the contrary you must be proud of the denials of looting done by the conquering Muslim armies in early Islam.
You say that Sweden looted in the Congo - well I don't even take the Quran's word for everything that I understand of what the Quran says, so why should I believe your accusations, without any proof? The Quran says bring your proof.
As for Mali some precious manuscripts were allegedly looted by the Tuaregs others (thank God) are in safe keeping and hopefully undergoing restoration in the United States of America.
Sweden is going to Mali for humanitarian reasons, Sweden is not going there to loot, but to stabilise the situation, keep the peace, engage in social services activities and to help build/re-build infrastructure. If the Africa Union could do it, Sweden or France wouldn't have to be there According to the news sources,
“ Sweden would contribute with airborne transport, flight safety support, and a national support unit, Defence Minister Karin Enström told the TT news agency.
"This is about a lack of development, decades of tension between different ethnic groups, uncertain access to food, widespread humanitarian need, increasing criminal activities and armed extremists," the ministers wrote.
"Our answer to help must therefore be broad. This is about security, about relieving acute distress, about sustainable development and about supporting political processes. And we must do all this together with the many international players who have been gathered to contribute to the Mali government and the Malian people."
The ministers added that 15 Swedish military instructors were already aiding the EU's efforts to educate and advise Mali's armed forces, claiming the operation was risk free.
"It is in Sweden's interest to contribute to international peace, security, and development in different ways. It is a part of our global responsibility. This is how our foreign policy tradition looks. And that is how we will continue to act," the ministers wrote.
Bildt explained that Swedish Hercules planes would carry out "tactical transports" and that Swedish troops would be in the field, but not out on patrol as they are in Afghanistan.
"No operation is risk free," he told TT.
While the current proposal limits the Swedish operation to one year, it's possible the mission could be extended. “
Thank you CH. I just believe that eternal damnation and salvation are matters of personal choice and must be allowed to remain so. Eternal salvation as peddled by some organized religions are best sold through gentle persuasion. Eternal salvation should never be forced on any individual or group this late in human history. Is that not what history teaches us? All one has to do is look at what is going on in societies where
coercion and force are employed as instruments of religious conformity and conversion, all because a few organized and determined extremists and opportunists believe that their religion has enemies. If only more people everywhere will respect difference.
oa
From: Cornelius Hamelberg [mailto:cornelius...@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, June 05, 2013 5:12 AM
To: usaafric...@googlegroups.com
Cc: Cornelius Hamelberg; emea...@mail.ccsu.edu; Anunoby, Ogugua
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Swedish Peace keeping troops for Mali
Ps 1.
Sir,
I would like to abide by Bishop Krister Stendahl's three rules: “
1. When you are trying to understand another religion, you should ask the adherents of that religion and not its enemies.
2. Don't compare your best to their worst.
3. Leave room for "holy envy." (By this Stendahl meant that you should be willing to recognize elements in the other religious tradition or faith that you admire and wish could, in some way, be reflected in your own religious tradition or faith.) “
However, in the absence of any of our Muslim Brothers answering some of your rhetorical questions and some of your self-explanatory questions, I will do my duty as I understand it, on my own behalf and in doing so I pray that I am being fair, and not unjust or arrogant or full of Satanic, self-exalting Khibr (pride) as it is said that “When Arrogance appears, disgrace follows” (The Book of Proverbs: 11:2)
You ask “ Enemies of Islam"? What is one to understand by the term? “
Answer :To give you a concrete example,the Iranian murtad/apostate, Ali Sina is considered an enemy of Islam and certainly not a friend of Islam because of all his disparaging attacks on what you call “one of the world's great religions.”I came to that conclusion myself after reading “The Jerusalem Post Interviews Ali Sina” An enemy of Islam is someone who is hostile to that religion in thought, word and action.
You ask, “Is a concerned, constructive critic or commentator on an important matter of their time an enemy?“ You are a little abstract there but in my view - and a man is judged by his intentions and if well intentioned - such as if it's not his wish (God forbid) that all Muslims should be exterminated - or that all Muslims should convert to Christianity, then in my opinion such a person is not necessarily an enemy of Islam, depending on the exact wording of his “concerned, constructive criticism” because even the devil is also capable of “concerned, constructive criticism”. More than a decade ago, I was once walking down St.Paulsgatan here in Stockholm, with our Rabbi Meir Horden when he told me, casually, with a smile on his face, “Cornelius, I have read the Quran.” I did not say anything – because I was afraid that he was on the verge of saying some very unholy things about the Quran, perhaps was going to tear the Quran to pieces, so, I did not say anything and I did not want to hear anything,from him. about the Quran or the Bhagavad Gita or the Dhammapada, which I could be quoting here right now. So we walked on in silence a few steps at a time.
However, I approve of Abdul Hadi Palazzi as a good “commentator on an important matter “of our times. So is Dr. Khaleel Mohammed as interviewed here . Painting on a much broader canvass is the reformist thinker Abdolkarim Soroush who I first came across through Ashk Dahlen's seminal “Islamic Law, Epistemology and Modernity: Legal Philosophy in Contemporary Iran”
The aforementioned are Muslim critics. Now when it comes to “non-believers”, “unbelievers” and “disbelievers” that is all those who do not willingly accommodate the idea that Muhammad (SAW) is the last prophet of Allah – when you have such human beings as critics of Islam - there you have other perceptions of the “enemies of Islam” - and the intensity of the perceived enmity can vary considerably, depending on that critic's identity – since the Quran - Quran 5:82 says; that the Jews are the main enemy of Islam and we must understand that this is because the Jewish people do not and did not and will not accept Islam's prophet and of course, if they had done or were to do so, then that would be or have been the end of Christianity. Please permit me to refrain from naming any non-Muslim critics of Islam right now. There are so many.
As you say, “so called non-believers' lives and livelihood are affected by the thoughts and activities of "believers" all the more reason why as you continue, “They are entitled to have an abiding and enduring interest in what Islam teaches her followers to believe and think because what people think and believe help to determine how they choose to conduct themselves and act toward others”
Yes Sir, in addition to knowing what kind of treatment we dhimmis are to expect at the hands of the Boko Haram and al-Qaeda type Muslim jihad movements as they advance their ultimate cause, a world Muslim government caliphate to be governed by strict Sharia Law, we can either resist or submit to the military wing of the proposed caliphate. That’s' the military wing. On the other front Muslims would like to convert the whole world by gentle persuasion.With respect to the Muslims and the Christians and people of other faiths there are a great many works on comparative religion which I think Muslims and Christians and people other faiths would find useful when in dialogue with other religionists. Islam is expanding rapidly in Africa and making great gains in Europe in particular – 911 must have put on some breaks in the US, for those who would like to convert to the religious ideology of ground zero. Of course other deterrents that still exist : Iran: Proposed Penal Code Retains Stoning | Human Rights Watch
I'm afraid that these your other questions will have to be answered by the Muslims themselves as I am not qualified to give an opinion:
The unanswered questions : “If we assume for example that an enemy is an extremist non well-wisher, is it conceivable or indeed the case that Islam may have more enemies with it than outside it at this time? Was the al qaeda founder a friend or enemy of Islam? Are Nigeria's Boko Haram members friends or enemies of Islam? Has Islam become a convenient facade employed by some determined, extremist, ideological adventurers chasing their political dreams? I am just asking?"
Sincerely,
Thank you CH for your kind endorsement of a position that will make even more sense and reduce needless misery, pain, suffering, and death, if more people will appreciate and embrace it. Violence in the name of an immortal, omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient real or imagined God must be the least justified, most unnecessary, and most wasteful violence there could be in my considered opinion. If only the arrogance, ignorance, and prejudice of religious extremism and opportunism will get out of the way. We live in hope. Thank you again.
oa
From: Cornelius Hamelberg [mailto:cornelius...@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, June 05, 2013 11:35 AM
To: usaafric...@googlegroups.com
Cc: Cornelius Hamelberg; emea...@mail.ccsu.edu; Anunoby, Ogugua
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Swedish Peace keeping troops for Mali
Sir,
Many thanks !
Throughout this thread I find your words gentle, dignified, humble & beautiful; your questioning insightful and the kinds of questions are those that a normal man of conscience must ask, followed by your very apt conclusions which I wholly endorse :
“that eternal damnation and salvation are matters of personal choice and must be allowed to remain so. Eternal salvation as peddled by some organized religions are best sold through gentle persuasion. Eternal salvation should never be forced on any individual or group this late in human history. Is that not what history teaches us? All one has to do is look at what is going on in societies where
coercion and force are employed as instruments of religious conformity and conversion, all because a few organized and determined extremists and opportunists believe that their religion has enemies. If only more people everywhere will respect difference”
Could it be that great minds think alike? Do you know that you are beginning to sound a little like Chief Rabbi Lord Jonathan Sacks?
Chief Rabbi Lord Jonathan Sacks: The Dignity of Difference: How to Avoid the Clash of Civilisations
Chief Rabbi Lord Jonathan Sacks in oral transmission
I hereby take this opportunity to forward an example of the non-violent, gentle persuasion that you and I have been talking about:
Moshe Chaim Luzzatto : The Way of God
Best Regards,
Cornelius
“A little knowledge that acts is worth infinitely more than knowledge that is idle.” – Kahlil Gibran (1883 – 1931)
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Check out the “Secret behind the Secret” @ http://optimaledge.net/#/the-secret/4574222007"Remember no one can make you feel inferior without your consent" - Eleanor Roosevelt
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RE - "Remember no one can make you feel inferior without your consent" - Eleanor Roosevelt
She must have been speaking in and of another context – perhaps not even a civil rights context. Applying her quote to the context in which and of which we are talking – namely alleged racism over an artist’s intentions as per his representation in what has erroneously been referred to as ”the nigger cake” depicting the agony of what a female victim of various forms of clitoridectomy suffers or what others suffer or scream on her behalf – is quite another matter. Ayi Kwei Armah asks in one of his novels (either “Fragments” or “Why are we so blest” - he asks, What happens to the soul of a Ghanaian boy who grows up being called Mike/Michael?
The individual understanding and response to the import of that question may vary from individual to individual, but this much must be clear : if in all your miserable life, a missionary colonial education which in itself was not so spectacular – since you were not a star pupil and you did not attend any of the best schools – if nevertheless such a missionary education has succeeded in misshaping your mind by instilling or implanting it in you that it is better to be called Michael or Abdul - and indeed, that being Michael or Abdul is the essence of you identity - or that Kwame or Santigie is inferior nomenclature, then the question of your consent (and submitting to that system since childhood) – the question of your consent does not necessarily arise. If since childhood you have been told and have inculcated the idea that you are inferior – since your father was no engineer etc. no amount of later education is going to erase that self-perception with which you have been afflicted and you will always be seeking assurance/reassurance/ confirmation that it is not so. It’s called an inferiority complex – the other side of the coin is known as a self/compensating superiority complex which some may arrive at after undergoing some kind of hypnosis to redeem them of the original affliction - as a result of which they may want to assume that they are superior to everybody – even though they know ( in their hearts) that they are not the most or the greatest anything. Or maybe they don’t know so?
We are to assume that in the myth about Romulus and Remus who were brought up by wolves, they must have thought of themselves as wolves. In a similar manner a lion cub that’s brought up by a pack of asses may go on thinking that he is an ass, until perchance one fine day he looks into a pool of stagnant water and there beholds his own reflection.
http://www.thelocal.se/blogs/corneliushamelberg/
She must have been speaking in and of another context � perhaps not even a civil rights context. Applying her quote to the context in which and of which we are talking � namely alleged racism over an artist�s intentions as per his representation in what has erroneously been referred to as �the nigger cake� depicting the agony of what a female victim of various forms of clitoridectomy suffers� or what others suffer or scream on her behalf � is quite another matter. �Ayi Kwei Armah asks in one of his novels (either �Fragments� or �Why are we so blest� - he asks, What happens to the soul of a Ghanaian boy who grows up being called Mike/Michael?
The individual understanding and response to the import of that question may vary from individual to individual, but this much must be clear : if in all your miserable life, a missionary colonial education which in itself was not so spectacular �� since you were not a star pupil and you did not attend any of the best schools � if nevertheless such a missionary education has succeeded in misshaping your mind by instilling or implanting it in you that it is better to be called Michael or Abdul �- and indeed, that being Michael or Abdul is the essence of you identity - or that Kwame or Santigie is inferior nomenclature, then the question of your consent (and submitting to that system since childhood) � the question of your consent does not necessarily arise. If since childhood you have been told and have inculcated the idea that you are inferior � since your father was no engineer etc. no amount of later education is going to erase that self-perception with which you have been afflicted and you will always be seeking assurance/reassurance/ confirmation that it is not so. It�s called an inferiority complex � the other side of the coin is known as a self/compensating�superiority complex which some may arrive at after undergoing some kind of hypnosis to redeem them of the original affliction� - as a result of which they may want to assume that they are superior to everybody � even though they know ( in their hearts) that they are not the most or the greatest anything. Or maybe they don�t know so?
We are to assume that in the myth about �Romulus and Remus who were brought up by wolves, they �must have thought of themselves as wolves. In a similar manner a lion cub that�s brought up by a pack of asses may go on thinking that he is an ass, until perchance one fine day he looks into a pool of stagnant water and there beholds his own reflection.
http://www.thelocal.se/blogs/corneliushamelberg/
�
�
On Wednesday, June 19, 2013 8:56:43 AM UTC+2, Eugene wrote:
�
"Remember no one can make you feel inferior without your consent" - Eleanor Roosevelt
Love & Best Wishes, always; positively: http://optimaledge.net/#/the-secret/4574222007
�
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cornelius, you are completely right. all the more in that her words might have applied to an individual--in fact to herself, the lesser cousin whom the high-up fdr married--but it becomes almost demeaning when applied to groups, especially disadvantaged groups. like reagan telling welfare mamas that their poverty was their fault, etc. this is the american dream: if you are not a millionaire, it is your fault.
and on the basis of that ideology grows a neoliberal state with no social conscience.
ken
On 6/19/13 10:01 AM, Cornelius Hamelberg wrote:
She must have been speaking in and of another context – perhaps not even a civil rights context. Applying her quote to the context in which and of which we are talking – namely alleged racism over an artist’s intentions as per his representation in what has erroneously been referred to as ”the nigger cake” depicting the agony of what a female victim of various forms of clitoridectomy suffers or what others suffer or scream on her behalf – is quite another matter. Ayi Kwei Armah asks in one of his novels (either “Fragments” or “Why are we so blest” - he asks, What happens to the soul of a Ghanaian boy who grows up being called Mike/Michael?
The individual understanding and response to the import of that question may vary from individual to individual, but this much must be clear : if in all your miserable life, a missionary colonial education which in itself was not so spectacular – since you were not a star pupil and you did not attend any of the best schools – if nevertheless such a missionary education has succeeded in misshaping your mind by instilling or implanting it in you that it is better to be called Michael or Abdul - and indeed, that being Michael or Abdul is the essence of you identity - or that Kwame or Santigie is inferior nomenclature, then the question of your consent (and submitting to that system since childhood) – the question of your consent does not necessarily arise. If since childhood you have been told and have inculcated the idea that you are inferior – since your father was no engineer etc. no amount of later education is going to erase that self-perception with which you have been afflicted and you will always be seeking assurance/reassurance/ confirmation that it is not so. It’s called an inferiority complex – the other side of the coin is known as a self/compensating superiority complex which some may arrive at after undergoing some kind of hypnosis to redeem them of the original affliction - as a result of which they may want to assume that they are superior to everybody – even though they know ( in their hearts) that they are not the most or the greatest anything. Or maybe they don’t know so?
We are to assume that in the myth about Romulus and Remus who were brought up by wolves, they must have thought of themselves as wolves. In a similar manner a lion cub that’s brought up by a pack of asses may go on thinking that he is an ass, until perchance one fine day he looks into a pool of stagnant water and there beholds his own reflection.
http://www.thelocal.se/blogs/corneliushamelberg/
On Wednesday, June 19, 2013 8:56:43 AM UTC+2, Eugene wrote:
"Remember no one can make you feel inferior without your consent" - Eleanor Roosevelt
Love & Best Wishes, always; positively: http://optimaledge.net/#/the-secret/4574222007
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On 19 Jun 2013 11:26, "EUGENE NWOSU" <eugenen...@hotmail.com> wrote:
"Remember no one can make you feel inferior without your consent" - Eleanor Roosevelt
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