Alternator Selection for Yanmar 4JH4E

[Matthew Davidson]

Hello All:

We are inching Wildflower back to working order. Spent last weekend installing a new Wire Harness on the Yanmar 4JH4E and brand spanking new Instrument Panel in the Cockpit. 

We need a new Alternator as the one we have is questionable. 

Battery Banks are comprised of: 

House Bank = 6ea Full River DC250-6 6V 250AH/ea AGM's (750 AH total)

Crank Batt = 1ea Oddyssey 31M PC-2150 12V AGM (11150 CCA / 100 AH)

Setting up our charge system with Balmar Smart Regulator. 

Need to know if anyone has done rigged up a new alternator to a Yanmar 4JH4E so I don't have to re-invent the wheel?

Also would like to know if anyone has set up a dual Alternator on a 4JH4E on a P40? Will the 2nd Alternator fit in the engine compartment?

Was thinking of going with the 80 Amp Alternator... suggestions? Like to apply the KISS method here. 

Matthew & Beverly

SV Wildflower

[Bill Schmidt]

Hi, Matt. We have Yanmar 4JH3BE. We have a standard Yanmar 90 amp alternator driven off the drive pulley/water pump belt. We have a dual belted dual core high amp truck alternator (250 amp+) which is driven by a separate drive shaft pulley. Both alternators are regulated separately by Balmar smart regulators. The "big alternator is on a separate bracket which mounts on the side of the bilge below the engine. Couldn't get room in the P40  engine area to mount it higher. Our house bank is 750 AH and our engine start (2) is 500AH.
    We have cruised this set up extensively over the past 10 or so years w/o any problems. BTW, the engine start batteries are under the companionway stairs and the house batteries are in the bilge forward of the engine and the big alternator.
    Great to hear that Wildflower is "Phoenix Rising".
Bill

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[Matthew Davidson]

Thinking of going with a 80A Hitachi Style and Balmar Digital Duo Charge Controller + battery Temp Sensors, this will cover us under the KISS rule.

I will add Solar Panels over the Dodger and Aft Arch when I built these in the year to come...

Sound like a fair plan?

Matthew A Davidson - Mat...@AntecCorporation.com
ANTEC CORPORATION, 

(Mail): PO Box 1609, North Bend, Wa 98045 

(NEW Ship Address): 12622 412th Ave SE., North Bend, Wa 98045 

(Office) 425-888-9090, (Cell) 206-660-1311, (Fax) 425-888-6492  ,

My Backup is Cindy Straka, Sup...@AntecCorporation.com

 

Manufacturer's Agent for: www.anteccorporation.com

Tideflex Technologies - www.tideflex.com

Red Valve Company - www.redvalve.com  

GA Industries - www.gaindustries.com

North American Pipe - RJ PVC Pipe - www.certa-lok.com 

TRIC-Tools PipeBursting - www.trictrenchless.com

Mack Iron Works Strainers - www.mackiron.com

Bruest Catalytic Heaters -  www.bruestcatalyticheaters.com

PermaPure Gas Conditioners - www.permapure.com   

Specialty T/C's, T/C Wire, Cable & Connectors www.anteccorporation.com

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[Larry Rovin]

By most standards you are going to be way under the recommended alternator size relative to your battery bank.  Usual recommendation is 25% of battery AH, so for a 750AH battery bank the recommendation would be at least a 187.5A alternator.  In theory this lets you charge to the battery bank’s acceptance rate and doesn’t overwork the alternator.  Having said that, we have sailed for years with a 720AH bank and a 110A alternator with no problems.  I suspect it will depend on how far down you expect to cycle the batteries between charges.

[Chris - Pelican]

Just FYI for others... we were able to fit 4 Mastervolt Slimline AGM (185-200AH each) batteries under the companionway stairs. Just barely, but they fit. They aren't cheap, but they let you keep the space forward of the engine clear for storage, and keep the batteries higher up (out of the bilge area). Our engine start battery is actually located in a box just inside the "condo" (under cockpit storage) door, along with our bank mega-fuse, house/start combo switch, etc.

http://www.mastervolt.com/products/agm-slimline-12v/agm-sl-12-185/

Chris

s/v/ Pelican

Passport 40 #76

[Ian Macrae]

Matthew - I've got eight T-105s under the companionway stairs. They are configured into two banks. No separate start battery. The alternator on my Mercedes is around 150 amps. The key for me in keeping it simple, and staying away from two alternators, are my two 185 solar panels with MPPT controller. I went for years in Mexico without needing to run the engine, or plugging into shore power, for charging purposes. We could anchor out for weeks or longer and the batteries would be topped up at the end of each day. The freezer stayed solidly frozen the whole time and the nav gear, computers and lights, etc., all had ample power. Up in Seattle I found last winter that there wasn't enough solar to keep my refrigeration system going on pure solar. Solar is simple, there are a lot fewer moving parts, so to speak. If you have enough sun. Changes in latitude....

Ian
S/V Freyja
P40 #49

[Matthew Davidson]

Thanks Ian

I think we have arrived at a good compromise for the charging system... Single 100amp Alternator with no Engine pulley modifications with the following makeup. 

Talked to Balmar up in Marysville WA on Monday. A perfect Yanmar 4JH4E Diesel drop in setup is as follows: 

1) Balmar Alternator Model 60-100-SV (100amp)

2) Balmar Alternator Trasient Spike Protector # TSP-12V

3) Balmar Alternator Temp Sensor #MC-TS-A

4) Balmar Battery Temp Sensors #MC-TS-B

5) Balmar Belt Buddy tensioner #BB 

6) Balmar Alternator External Mount Max Charge Multi Stage Voltage Regulator #MC-614

7) Balmar Digital Duo Charge (Mounts between House-Start Batteries) #DDC-12/24

8) Backup - Honda 2000i Portable Generator we have at home)

9) Adding Solar next year

10) Add Wind Gen off the Rawson 30 we sold 2 years ago.

11) House Batteries: 6ea AGM Full River DC250-6 6V (750 AH)

12) Crank Battery: 1ea Oddyssey AGM 31M-PC2150 (1150 CCA)

14) Magnum MS2812 2800W Inverter with 125 Amp Charger
 

I think our charging system will work just fine once everything has been integrated (Alternator/Solar/Wind). We will shake it all down in Puget Sound and tweak it if necessary. Really don't want two alternators.

Big loads will be the 12V Leeson DC Motor Drive for the Crosby refrigeration system and the New Instruments (Simrad Radar, S&B NSS9 evo2 Plotter, Data Hub, AIS, Rudder Feed back Sensor and Autopilot Hydraulic Drive Unit)

Also have a Hydrovane so off shore should be a lot less draw on the Batteries. 

Getting closer every day... waiting on the Balmar Alternator to show up so we can fire her up!

Matthew & Beverly Davidson - S/V Wildflower - Seattle

[Bill Schmidt]

Sounds good Matt. I am late with the photos you requested (and they aren't very helpful anyway). Sorry. Soldier on.

B.

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[Ian Macrae]

Matt, another thing I've noticed while on boats with AGM batteries is how incredibly fast they charge to 100%. Wet batteries slow down their acceptance rate as they become more fully charged and in fact throttle back the alternator quite a bit. By the time wet batteries are at 80% they start telling the alternator to slow down and you wind up cycling between 50% and 80%, never getting to 100% float. With AGMs they will take pretty much all of the alternator's output until they are completely full, and they take it much more quickly than wets do. So adding more alternator horse power to a wet cell configuration doesn't always accomplish what you hope it will. I notice you have AGMs on your list, which is good!

Ian

[Matthew Davidson]

That is something i did not know! thanks Ian.

Matthew A Davidson - Mat...@AntecCorporation.com
ANTEC CORPORATION, 

(Mail): PO Box 1609, North Bend, Wa 98045 

(NEW Ship Address): 12622 412th Ave SE., North Bend, Wa 98045 

(Office) 425-888-9090, (Cell) 206-660-1311, (Fax) 425-888-6492  ,

My Backup is Cindy Straka, Sup...@AntecCorporation.com

 

Manufacturer's Agent for: www.anteccorporation.com

Tideflex Technologies - www.tideflex.com

Red Valve Company - www.redvalve.com  

GA Industries - www.gaindustries.com

North American Pipe - RJ PVC Pipe - www.certa-lok.com 

TRIC-Tools PipeBursting - www.trictrenchless.com

Mack Iron Works Strainers - www.mackiron.com

Bruest Catalytic Heaters -  www.bruestcatalyticheaters.com

PermaPure Gas Conditioners - www.permapure.com   

Specialty T/C's, T/C Wire, Cable & Connectors www.anteccorporation.com

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[Chris - Pelican]

Ian -

Not quite accurate - and everyone, please feel free to correct me! The only batteries available (consumer wise) today that will accept 100% of a bulk charge without resistance are Lithium Ion and Lithium Polymer batteries. They can also be discharged to near 0% on multiple cycles without memory issues. However, expect to pay 2-3x the price for these, plus additional money for the devices to ensure you don't burn out your chargers. Most alternators are not designed to pump this much power into a battery and they will literally melt down. Some people say lithium batteries are where the world is going with regards to marine batteries. Others say that there are too many issues and they still haven't proven themselves.

Alternatively, there are advances being made in other battery technologies more closely related to your wet cells with regards to charge and discharge. Thin plate pure lead devices stack a number of thin plates on top of each other inside the battery. These units have more surface area and can recharge more rapidly than standard AGMs and wet cells. The most well known ones are from Odyssey, but other companies like Mastervolt (I have slimline AGMs from Mastervolt on Pelican) have similar construction resulting in a much higher charge acceptance rate. They still have the same issues with regards to partial charges and number of cycles.

Carbon Foam is a promising technology, but there's really only one company out there making carbon foam batteries - http://fireflyenergy.com/. The biggest advantage of these batteries is their lack of memory. You can run them in partial states of discharge with no ill effects. Normal wet cells need full recharges or the underlying chemistry weakens and you end up with a batter that rapidly declines in health and has half the storage. There's a great article on carbon foam, and batteries in general, at http://www.panbo.com/archives/2016/05/gizmos_new_firefly_battery_bank_working_out_the_details.html.

Having cruised with kids, and being a technology heavy boat (I love tech), having the maximum available capacity in the space available (under our companionway steps) is really important to me. I follow battery technology fairly closely.

Chris

s/v/ Pelican

Passport 40 #76

[Larry Rovin]

AGMs will have a higher acceptance rate than wet cell but will still taper off the amperage as they fill up. Practical Sailor did a thorough stress test of AGMs last year, putting them through multiple full drawdowns with partial recharges. Some faired better than others but all had some loss in capacity from the abuse.

Sent from my iPad

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OK, my experience with LiPo (aka ‘Lithium’) batteries is with model airplanes and a garden railroad, not (yet) my P40. If you don’t think this is relevant, go watch “Flight of the Phoenix” (either version; I like the earlier one) and come back later.

\

All ready now? Good.

Lithium (Li) is the third most abundant element in the universe; lead (Pb) is at the back end of the parade. Lithium-based batteries are the reverse of that relationship when compared to lead-based technology. Why is that? Well, lithium is highly reactive (meaning ‘dangerous’) and lead is what uranium and all its radioactive neighbors become as they age (not dangerous anymore, like old mobsters in Florida). 

Enough of the elemental, what about my battery? The lead battery chemistry is a nominal 2.0 volts per cell and lithium (LiPo) is 3.7 volts per cell. (yes, there are ‘lithium’ cells with 3.0 volt chemistry, but not for this purpose) So there will be some battery-math to learn and some analysis of on-board systems voltage-tolerance to consider. First, lithium cells are not very tolerant. They don’t like being overcharged and really, really hate being used below a certain level. That level is not “0% (zero)”; not even close. A lithium ‘cell’ (the component that combines to make a battery; you do the math) must be kept under 4.2 volts while being charged and must NEVER be discharged below 3.0 volts. Exceeding the charge volts could be ‘explosive' and discharge below the 3.0 volts will often make the chemistry forget how to work, resulting in an expensive, non-functional battery. 

Just as was the case with ‘old’ acid-flooded-lead batteries, taking the human out of the control-room and relying on computer charge-management will make lithium technology as reliable and safe as the old hydrogen gassing-flooded batteries that only exploded when misused.

Now for the good news: the fast charge and high discharge rates of lithium are true; the technology is actually getting better and will continue to improve. The lithium chemistry does not have the self-discharge that we have experienced with our lead-based systems. No ‘trickle-charger’ needed (or even wanted; that’s another story)! 

Now about that alternator . . .. Chris is right: the standard automobile model will not serve. There are however alternators made to produce a continuous high output—like for a fire truck or EMT vehicle—and that is what I have in my P40. (even came painted red!) It puts out an honest 125 amps, no problem. That is fine until the lead (AGM) batteries hit their max charge volts and the flow drops off a cliff. Not so with lithium; their chemistry ‘reactivity’ will keep the charge-rate high. How high? If I remember, AGM’s can accept about 10% of their amp-hour-rating on charge; lithium’s can support 100%. So in practice a lithium bank will get back to ‘full’ in a fraction (1/10) of the time for even a modern AGM battery.  

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Donal B. Botkin

1 Peninsula Road, Gate B

Belvedere, CA  94920

415 497-5411

[christine]