P40 purchase but some problems found pre-survey

[Nick Hall]

Hi,

This is my first post.  Just went and looked at a 1983 Passport 40.  I'm most likely going to pass on this particular boat but I would love the chance to learn something about what, in my opinion, might be serious problems.

First, the teak decks were totally shot.  The deck hardware had the typical sanding down around it and bungs were missing, caulk was dried out and generally shot.  

Second, there was no oil in the original Nanni motor.  Looks like it was all in the bilge.  Pulled the radiator cap and again really couldn't see any fluid and it was full of rust.  Needs a re-power?  If the guy keeps his motor this way I can't imagine how he ran and fed it.  

Third, and perhaps most troubling: the support structure for the steering cable yoke? was just a stalagmite of rusty spindly bits.  I have no idea how the guy docked this boat without the whole pedestal sinking into the floor.  I have attached a picture of the support structure.  Has anyone replaced this part before?  I'm guessing you pull the pedestal and the teak and there is an access panel of some sort to get to this thing?  The picture doesn't do it justice because I could only poke my head into the smallest access panel from the aft birth.  But basically one vertical side of this support structure is no longer making contact with the base above where the steering cable winds around the yoke (forgive my terminology).  

Long story short, I don't think this boat even qualifies for a survey (I am not want a giant project boat) but I would love to hear other owners' feedback on what I found so I can go see the next one with some more knowledge.  This boat was asking around $130,000.  Thanks in advance for your help.

Nick

[Donald Fife]

Damn, it still has three sides touching! Mine only had two. 

Sent from my iPhone

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<IMG_20160620_154605.jpg>

[View[+]Finder]

My P40 is a 1985 model with a Nanni conversion of a Mercedes Benz 180 diesel. I bought in 1997 from the original owner and between 1999 and 2005 cruised from San Francisco to NZ and back with lots of stops along the way. I am considered to be “handy with tools” and generally “Mr. Fixit” (often of necessity) so taking on a boat was fun at the time. I did most of the work needed on the boat myself before heading South, so the problems I experienced along the way were mostly due to the trip, not the initial condition of the boat.

Owning a boat IS a “project” no matter whether it is brand new or dragged back from the realm of Neptune. If one is not comfortable with either opening a toolbox or a wallet (sometimes both), then there are other hobbies to consider. Still, there is something to be said for the pleasure of “messing about in boats.” There is nothing better than a slightly broken boat to attract many new friends willing to help. 

Here’s my take on the items you mention.

1) Price. $130k seems a bit much for a boat that is not in condition to go for a sail; I’d check other P40 listings and what boats sold for. Then assume a bunch of things need to be replaced and deduct those costs.

2) Engine. I have a Nanni and it is fine; others have replaced them with Yanmars. 1983 is a long time back for an engine—more so its components. The water might have been drained to avoid freezing if it is a risk. The oil, another story. Bilge is usually nasty, but oil in the bilge is likely to get one a stiff fine if discharged. If it came from the engine, that is not good.

3) The “support structure”. In addition to its role in the steering gear, many owners believe that it has a role in supporting the rudder shaft. I didn’t think that was the case, so my solution was to clean off all the rust and paint it. That worked for 20k miles at sea. Others have reengineered the whole thing with castings and bearings in a stainless steel cage.

4) Teak decks. Some P40’s don’t have them—there is a non-skid pattern in the mold that can be seen on some non-teak decks. The real issue is “does it leak?” If so, it has to be repaired, replace or removed. If there are no leaks, it is a matter of aesthetics. BTW, the “caulk” is a rubber compound that might look hard on the surface, but remains elastic underneath. The teak is glued to the deck with the same stuff and the screws are there to hold it in place until the rubber set-up. Replacing bungs is easy and removing the screw and filling the hole with epoxy is a standard practice.

Some more tidbits you didn’t mention:

1) Sails? How many, how new, what condition?

2) Mast and standing rigging? If the rig breaks, the mast and all comes down or someone gets hurt. A survey will not give any assurance on the likelihood of failure. If the shrouds are over ten-years old (in salt-water conditions) they should be replaced.

3) Electronics. What you plan to do will shape these questions. At the very least you will need a new radio set (safety issue) and a hand-held as well. Navigation has changed markedly in the last 20-years; an iPad and the right software will do a better job than an ancient chart-plotter. A decent GPS with a depth-sounder is essential. I’m an ex-USN radar-technician, so a radar is “eyes" for me when at sea.

Finally, a P40 interior is almost impossible to find in a modern boat, so if the cabin is in decent condition, many sins can be forgiven elsewhere. (forgiven as in “repaired”)

Good luck, I’m sure others will chime in.

Cheers,

Donal

[CAZ]

Nick,

Seeing your picture of the cable steering yoke and reading your description of the teak deck and condition of the engine, I would say this is a project boat. This boat could be worth $130,000 when rebuilt but not at this point. I would walk away. You should be able to find a Passport 40 for $130,000 ready to sail. Keep looking. You will love the way Passports were designed & built. The fiber glass is thick and the teak is solid. No cheap teak veneer over particle board. The workmanship is awesome. In addition, the fin keel and skeg hung rudder handles really well. A true blue water boat that will take you anywhere you have the nerve to sail it. Call with any questions.

Capt. Bill Casnovsky

s/v Passport 40, 1984, Beau Navire

Austin, Texas. 

[psherwood]

Getting rid of the teak deck and laying down some sort of non-skid is
not particularly difficult, but it is about 5 man-weeks of work. In the
course of the project you'll be filling all the screw holes anyway. The
biggest "gotcha" would probably be if you discover that lots of the deck
core is soggy. One or two squares isn't too big a deal -- you can dig
'em out, or if they're not all that bad, drill a lot of little holes
into (but not through) the soft core area and run as much penetrating
epoxy into the holes as the core will drink.

Pix and text of my teak removal project at
http://witanco.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=25.

The rudder cage looks kinda nasty in your pic but actually might not be
as bad as it looks. Can you dig or scrape at some of the rustiest areas
to see how much rust there really is? Check this list's archive for
much discussion about rudder cages.

Engine: I don't know anything about Nannis -- I have an '86 vintage
Perkins -- but no oil in the crankcase doesn't sound good. When was the
last time the motor was run? How many hours on it, allegedly?

How's the interior woodwork? The sails? The standing and running
rigging? The mast (check for corrosion at the mast step)? How are the
chainplates? They're another of the P40's suboptimal original
construction elements.

$130K sounds pretty high to me for a P40 that isn't in pretty dang good
condition and pretty much ready to go sailing (safely). All boats are
projects, to greater or lesser degrees; the one you describe sounds more
on the "greater" side. If you take it on (assuming a satisfactory
negotiation of the purchase price), you'll have one sweet boat when
you're done that you know will have been updated/repaired/refurbished
correctly. What other P40s do Yachtworld, other listings, and your local
yacht brokers show for the amount of money you're considering spending?

Just my $0.02; hope this helps.

Phil
s/v Cynosure
Seattle/San Carlos

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[George Louis]

Don't even entertain the idea. Sounds like there is nothing redeeming about this boat. 

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[Michael Dobbs]

Run, don't walk to the exit?

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[Michael Dobbs]

Run, don't walk to the exit?

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On Jun 20, 2016, at 9:01 PM, George Louis <glou...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Nick Hall]

Thanks for the replies.   So this rusting metal is called a rudder cage - good to know.  

I do not want a project boat - I'm looking for a well cared for example that I can refit as I like.  I want to sail and not spend 5 man weeks doing anything like ripping up teak decks to find soggy plywood underneath.  That would be crushing.

The search continues.  

Nick

[John Baudendistel]

Hi Nick, 

130 does not sound right for the condition. 

One thing that buying a Passport comes with is this group if you want info.  It is quite nice to be able to "ping" fellow members around the globe whom have likely have had a similar issue or can lend their experiences. We own Dream Keeper a 1985 passport 42.  The 42' and 51' are Stan  Huntingford designed Passports.  A few 39 and 41 or 43' were made in the Bob Perry design plus mostly p40's by far. 

A 42 is a true cutter design where the 40 is a sloop design.  The 42 is a double ender.  The benefits of a cutter and p42 are many.  The largest being you can fit an entire P40 in all of my Large lockers.  Just kidding ( don't start you p40' guys and gals.  I'm sure they won't be able to help themselves)  

As was mentioned with solid teak interiors and fine wood craftsmanship you won't find such in more modern designs.  

Passports have a cutaway modified keel.  Not a fin and not full.  Also have a barn door sized skeg hung rudder.  Pretty much bomb proof.  I believe all built are still afloat as this is tracked by some folks.  

Let me know if you want to know more about p42's.  I would be glad to answer questions. 

Thanks 

John Baudendistel

Jo...@ets247.com

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[Michael Moradzadeh]

Dawn Riley's boat is for sale here in California at a seriously reduced price: http://rubiconyachts.com/yachts-for-sale/details/5421377/

Rubicon helped me sell Cayenne (pause to shed a tear) at a price similar to that asked for Wanderbird.  I imagine the boat to be in better condition than you describe below, but I have not been aboard.

Hop a plane and come on down.  The weather is great.

Michael Moradzadeh
Ex-CAYENNE, now OAXACA (SC50 - USA8927)

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[Brian Heineken]

I have a bit of a biased opinion but am in love with the Passport 51. Our sister-ship, Matsu seems to still be for sale. Step up to the big lady!!

http://voyagesofmatsu.blogspot.hk/?m=1

Cheers,

B

Sent from my iPhone

[Nick Hall]

Thanks for the heads up.  This boat has been for sale for quite some time if I'm not mistaken?  

I happen to be traveling down to Los Angeles in 2 weeks.  If it's still for sale I'll take a look.  

[Michael Moradzadeh]

It has been for sale for a long time.  From the pictures, it looks like they did a lot of polishing up the interior.  It's in San Francisco area, not LA

[Mark]

This is also my first post.  I happen to have purchased airfare to see the boat, and I intend to see her on Monday.

Nick's post alarmed me, and I'm glad I saw it.  I think this type of candor is important for prospective buyers to consider, but at the same time it can disparage a boat irreparably.  In Nick's defense, he did not identify her by name or location, but I pieced it together.

I understand his concern about the rudder cage; that is a common issue, and the owner of this boat is in the process of having it repaired.  It's really not an issue here.

As for the condition of the decks, I have seen closeup pictures of probably every inch of the teak.  It does need some work, but it certainly is not "shot."  I have seen another P40 with completely shot decks.  This is much better, but as any 33-year-old boat with original wood, some areas need attention.

The most alarming piece was the bit about oil in the bilge and a rusty heat exchanger.  It was explained to me that the broker showed the boat to Nick while unaware that the owner was in the middle of uncompleted engine maintenance.  I'll be inspecting the engine closely and viewing maintenance records to verify.  But that is a reasonable explanation for what Nick saw.  I'm hoping that pans out because otherwise, the boat appears to be well cared for.

On Monday, June 20, 2016 at 5:39:28 PM UTC-7, Nick Hall wrote:

[Larry Rovin]

Get a separate engine survey from a qualified Diesel surveyor.  That should tell you if you have problems.

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