Woes Retrieving Anchor Chain

[Kevin]

We recently upgraded out ground tackle and replaced the old manual windlass with an electric one.  The new ground tackle includes 200’ of 3/8” chain and therein lies the problem.  This amount and size chain fills the chain locker to the point that the chain pyramid rise to the height that there’s not enough weight on the chain falling into the locker and the windlass jams up.  I have to go below, knock down the pyramid, and resume retrieving the ground tackle.  Not a good situation.

 

I’ve read on the forum that a number of other P40 owners have more chain than we do, so I’m wondering how you manage to avoid the problem we’re facing.  I know that another P40, S/V Grendel, set up a nifty little system to knock down the pyramid by pulling a handle attached to a cable that led to the anchor locker and a paddle apparatus.  Any other solutions out there?  BTW, our P40 is the Pullman berth configuration with the holding tank in the anchor locker area.  It might matter.

 

Thanks,

 

Kevin Muilman

S/V Casi Cielo

[Bill Schmidt]

Kevin, Wind Witch has a similar problem. We have 300' of 5/8 Hi Test. We have a forward bunk, not a Pullman. The problem with chain retrieval is that, after retrieval and sailing off, the pyramidal pile falls over, trapping  the chain and preventing lowering at the next anchorage. We have only solved this problem by being below  (crew) at the initial retrieval and, with a stick, flaking the chain back and forth.

    The additional problem you have, that we do not, is that all that chain is way up front. With the forward bunk, we can store most of the 300' further aft under the bunk. I doubt that you can do that, but maybe so. You need more response from people with Pullman setups. But you still may have the flopping pyramid problem anyway. Ain't boating fun?

Billy Manana

--
--
Passport Owners Association http://passportyachts.org
To post to the group, use "reply all" or send email to Passpor...@googlegroups.com
To reply to just the author, just use "reply:
For more options, go to
http://groups.google.com/group/PassportOwners?hl=en
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Passport Owners" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to PassportOwner...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[Steve Binari]

Kevin,

 

I wonder if this is a vertical vs. horizontal windlass issue.  We have the Pullman berth layout, a Lofrans Tigres horizontal windlass, 250' of 3/8" ACCO G4 chain, and we don't have this problem.

 

Steve

s/v Albireo, P40, #57, 1984

--

[Kevin]

We have a vertical windlass, but wouldn't the diminishing chain drop as a result of the chain pyramid have the same impact on a horizontal windlass?

Kevin

[Francisco Garuti]

I have very little experience since I just acquired my own Passport 40. But it also came with a manual windlass, and I opted for a vertical Maxwell RC10-10. I have a very short chain right now (125' I believe) of 3/8. Im seriously thinking of buying 250-300' of all chain rode. Im concerned I will face the problem you mention, which I suffer from today. 

To be quite honest I purchased a vertical windlass merely on aesthetic reasons and did not really put much thought into chain drop, chain size and locker size, etc. Right now Im kind of stuck in the middle trying to figure out what Im going to do. 

My problem is I believe similar to yours; whenever I am deploying rode, it will sometimes stop because (I believe) the angle is not the proper one and if it "comes slightly from the aft" the windlass for some reason stops. If I kick some of the chain forward, then it continues going without a hitch. When retrieving rode, I get the pyramid effect sometimes, and have to kick it down. All this without even getting into the 200' you currently have, so Im concerned if it's even worth buying 300' of chain if it will bring a whole slew of trouble.

After I carefuly read my RC10-10 manual (RTFM ... before purchasing I guess), it stated that an all chain rode requires 300mm or 12 inches of chain drop. Check out this Maxwell note on it's website: (you need to scroll down to find the graphic)

http://www.maxwellmarine.com/gen_which_winch.php

So I believe we are a victim of the lack of chain drop. On other forums I have seen mentioned once using a traffic cone (yes, a small orange safety traffic cone) as a way to evenly distribute the chain in the locker by placing it right below the chain entrance. Might this method do something to help our case? I was thinking of heading to home depot on my next trip and trying that out. You might want to try that one out.

I also have another anchor issue, but I will post a different thread on that one, since I don't want to hijack this one. But I have been learning that windlass, chain, anchor roller, anchor, are all a delicate balance and combination of factors that can really mess up your best intentions; and that throwing money at it can become a bottomless pit. It requires careful thinking and planning to get right.

[Bill Schmidt]

             I've got to tell you guys that I think you've gone off the deep end with a lead life preserver. I've owned Wind Witch for 33 years Over this time we have cruised up and down the west coast of North America from Canada to Mexico multiple times and we have anchored countless times in all types of harbors with all kinds of cruddy bottoms. We've anchored in 50 k. winds. We've had 6 Passports rafted off our boat in 20-25 k. winds, all on just our CQR. Yes we do have 300' of 5/16" Hi-test chain. But NEVER have we ever let out over 100' ever. Yes, I know that there are rare people who have been driven rarely to use longer rodes anchoring in the Pacific Trench, but really, is that you? IMHO buying 300' of chain is an incredible waste of money, money better spent on books on how and where to anchor. If you are on the east coast &/or the Gulf of Mexico, stop and ask yourselves: Am I ever going to use 300' of chain? If so, what windlass will ever retrieve it before melting into a pool of steel dribble?

    I can think of having huge, long chains for only one reason. Bragging rights. Hope my comments are helpful.

Billy Manana

[Jim Melton]

Francisco,

I'd be surprised if most head-forward Passport 40s didn't have the chain
pyramid problem. I have 200' of 5/16" GT4 chain rode and, when raising
the anchor from a greater depth (e.g., 40'), definitely have to either
have somebody below to keep knocking over the pyramid or keep running
below myself to do it.

I plan to adopt the solution that Grendel's owner adopted, which seems
to me to be the least complex and expensive solution. If, indeed, a
horizontal winch does not encounter the problem, I suspect that it's
because -- to some degree -- the winch is "pushing" the chain down the
hole into the chain locker.

I heard about the traffic cone "solution" and quickly dismissed it
because, unless it was a largish cone, it would simply become buried by
the chain and make the problem worse :P

Hope this helps,
Jim

> --

--
---------------------------------------------------
HSUS spends 5x as much on their retirement plan as
they spend on animal rescue/shelters. FIVE TIMES!!
** Permission to repost this message is granted **
** unless explicitly denied in THIS message. **
---------------------------------------------------
Jim Melton SheltieJim at xmission dot com
1930 Viscounti Drive, Sandy, UT 84093-1063
Assistant Director, National Sheltie Rescue Network
Shelties since 1969; ASSA member since 1992
Please visit Sheltie Rescue of Utah, Inc. at
http://SheltieRescueUT.org
Saving The World, One Sheltie At A Time

[Ross Hoag]

I have a Pullman berth, vertical windlass, 200 feet of chain, and my holding tank is not in the forward chain locker.  I have not had any problems with the chain jamming while deploying or retrieving the anchor. Where I did have lots of problems was when the rigger pushed over my nice pile of chain to look for something forward. Once the nicely laid cone was disturbed it was impossible to get it to deploy again without someone untangling and feeding it from below. I had to manually deploy it all on the dock then re-stow it before life was good again. The lesson I took away was don't knock over the cone if possible, or if you have to, given clearance issues, do it in small increments in an organized manner otherwise you will end up with spaghetti that will be painful to deploy. I have never had my cone of chain tumble on its own or while under sail. 

Another related topic - I would like to figure out a way to move some of the chain aft for long passages as I suspect the boat will sail/balance better with less weight in the bow. This is just a hunch at this point, some of you might have experience with this or have educated opinions, if so I would love to hear them. So far I have not figured out a simple path to get from the chain locker under/through the forward head area.

Ross

Pekina

[psherwood]

My $0.02:

Pullman layout, head forward, holding tank in chain locker. 300' of
5/16" chain, Lofrans Tigres windlass (horizontal axle). I _have_ used
almost all my chain, although only perhaps four times in 12 years of
wandering hither and yon from Canada to Ecuador and Hawaii, and around
the western Caribbean. The windlass will easily retrieve all of it, at
least when run in ~20-second bursts and given a few seconds between
bursts to cool down a bit.

I've never (knock on wood) had a problem with the chain tangling on the
way out except when I knocked over the pile while messing about in the
chain locker for some reason. I can't imagine why having a vertical vs.
a horizontal windlass would make the slightest difference: however it
gets to the hole in the deck, the chain just drops through it as it will
into the chain locker.

Anchoring (including related sub-topics such as rode type and length,
etc.) is like religion: everybody's got his/her own take on it, and
everybody's right. Speaking only for myself, I've often used 150-175 ft
(that's only 30-35 ft of water @ 5:1, after all) and am glad to have
300'. Arguably I could do just fine with 200' and 100' of rope; the
difference in weight between that and all chain would be <100 lbs. Not a
big deal for me.

Also, I figure the weight of the chain is pretty much balanced by the
four house bank batteries just aft of the companionway and the start
battery at the foot of the companionway stairs. I don't experience
hobbyhorsing or plunging of the bow.

Not advocating anything; just my $0.02.

Phil
s/v Cynosure

On Wed 11/23/16 15:59, Ross Hoag wrote:
> I have a Pullman berth, vertical windlass, 200 feet of chain, and my
> holding tank is not in the forward chain locker. I have not had any
> problems with the chain jamming while deploying or retrieving the

> anchor. [...]

[Verizon]

Just a thought (we do not have this issue on our v-berth model) but could the problem relate to the type of chain?

I ask because we swapped the manual windlass for power a few years ago.  The manual used 7/16 BBB.  We switched to 3/8 High Test (5/16 would also be fine).  The new chain seems to lay flatter in the locker.  Could just be my imagination.....

Bob Peahl

Anthem P40/70

Sent from my iPhone

[Gerard Knight]

The low-tech solution - I use a strong wooden pole (garden broom handle) down thru the hauser pipe to knock the stack of chain down, every 10m for the last 30m or so. It stows nicely alongside the pulpit rail, and works fine.

Gerard Knight

SV Saltwhistle

[Kevin]

Update:  It is definitely chain pyramid syndrome.  With someone below knocking down the pile before it reaches critical height the chain screams into the locker.  Stop knocking down the pile and it still screams, but to a halt.

 

I’ve spent more time trying to figure out how to correct the problem that I did deciding what to do when I grew up.  (I hope that the chain problem turns out better.)  I’ve considered many possible solutions and tossed all but two.  Right now, in addition to someone below or a mechanical method of knocking the pyramid down from the deck, I’ve landed on:

 

1.       Extending the hawser pipe below deck to direct the falling chain to a point in the locker where it is more likely to spread out evenly and not pyramid.  My initial thought is to try a bit forward of the deepest point in the anchor locker.  I’ll test this with some 3” heavy wall PVC piping with a few elbows of different angles.  If it works when retrieving the chain I’ll need to consider how to manage deploying the chain so that it doesn’t hang up on the pipe’s edges.

2.       Create more room in the anchor locker.  I have a Pullman berth layout which has a half-height “bulkhead” just forward of the bulkhead that separates the head from the locker.  On Casi Cielo our inner (detachable) forestay connects to a tang on this half-height “bulkhead”.   I’ll need to re-engineer the forestay connection, but there’s a good 6” of space aft of the half-height “bulkhead” that might help with the space for the chain if I can make it available.  The question to others with the same layout – do you have the half-height “bulkhead” and is it structural?

 

As usual I appreciate the help.

 

Kevin Muilman

S/V Casi Cielo

[Rob Raymond]

How often do you put out more that 100' of chain? Just knock the chain pile over every 40' or so. The time you're putting into this is better spent consuming your favorite beverage.

--

--
Passport Owners Association http://passportyachts.org

To post to the group, use "reply all" or send email to PassportOwners@googlegroups.com

To reply to just the author, just use "reply:
For more options, go to
http://groups.google.com/group/PassportOwners?hl=en
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Passport Owners" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to PassportOwners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.