rudder removal
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Ernie
Dec 1, 2010, 7:25:40 AM12/1/10
to Passport Owners
Hi all,
We are going to remove the rudder for closer inspection of its inside
framework, as well as replace the pyramid that guides/supports the
rudder post in the garage. There appears to be a bronze shoe at the
base of the skeg that supports the rudder. Also looks like 4 pins that
need to come out. I assume that one grinds off one side and use a
punch to remove them once the head is gone.?? Has anyone done this job
and am I on the right track? Where does one get new pins once the
rudder is back on?
Part of my reason for wanting to work on the rudder is rust that is
present right around the base of the rudder at the shoe. Again.....I
assume that this may be coming from the inside of the rudder.
Any guidance would be appreciated....pictures would be great too....
Thanks........Ernie
We are going to remove the rudder for closer inspection of its inside
framework, as well as replace the pyramid that guides/supports the
rudder post in the garage. There appears to be a bronze shoe at the
base of the skeg that supports the rudder. Also looks like 4 pins that
need to come out. I assume that one grinds off one side and use a
punch to remove them once the head is gone.?? Has anyone done this job
and am I on the right track? Where does one get new pins once the
rudder is back on?
Part of my reason for wanting to work on the rudder is rust that is
present right around the base of the rudder at the shoe. Again.....I
assume that this may be coming from the inside of the rudder.
Any guidance would be appreciated....pictures would be great too....
Thanks........Ernie
George Louis
Dec 1, 2010, 11:35:52 AM12/1/10
to Ernie, Passport Owners
When I had my rudder done and I thought there was water on the inside of
the blade the shop simply drilled holes in the bottom and let the water
drain out. They said this was a normal occurrence based on the age of the
boat (1985) and they then filled in with epoxy.
the blade the shop simply drilled holes in the bottom and let the water
drain out. They said this was a normal occurrence based on the age of the
boat (1985) and they then filled in with epoxy.
I also had the cage redone surrounding the quadrant which was glassed in to
the hull. That was expensive but I never have to do it again.
George Louis
Wind Thief
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jpwither
Dec 2, 2010, 5:22:57 AM12/2/10
to Passport Owners, Ernie
I did my bottom boot earlier this year.
You are correct - there are four bronze rivets holding in the shoe. Grind
off one side of the rovets and then punch through. This was a tough job and
took a lot of heating with blow torch and heavy hitting with a podgy hammer
(small hammer used for tiling/brick work). I had to drill out one of my
rivets as it was just in too tight. Ground off the rivet close to the skeg
on both sides , and then just drilled in from both side in a straight a line
as I could to minimise drill run out.
The 'boot' should then fall off however mine took a bit of hammering. You
will need to support the rudder during this process so it doesn't fall - I
used supports from around the yard.
Behind the 'boot' I did find a bit of wet wood and I drilled a hole up
through the exposed bottom of the sked - this ran water for a couple of
hours and then slowed down over a few days.
I had a bearing inside the boot that came up to a shoulder to form a face
that the rudder bottom bearing sat in and pivoted on. My bearing was worn a
fair bit and again with a bit (make that a lot) of heat etc it was finally
able to get it out. I replaced the bearing with a hard wearing nylon
material, althought brass/bronze would have been Ok.
When I reinstalled the boot - it was the same as the reverse although it
took a bit of juggling to line up the holes. I replaced the rivets with
stainless bolts as I couldn't find any brass rivets to replace the existing
with. Oh yeah, I also drilled a number of small holes into the rudder to
try and get rid of water.
The overall job was not technically challenging it was reasonably
straightforward. I do have some photos somewhere and if you would like to
see them I will try and work out how to attach them to an e.mail
You are correct - there are four bronze rivets holding in the shoe. Grind
off one side of the rovets and then punch through. This was a tough job and
took a lot of heating with blow torch and heavy hitting with a podgy hammer
(small hammer used for tiling/brick work). I had to drill out one of my
rivets as it was just in too tight. Ground off the rivet close to the skeg
on both sides , and then just drilled in from both side in a straight a line
as I could to minimise drill run out.
The 'boot' should then fall off however mine took a bit of hammering. You
will need to support the rudder during this process so it doesn't fall - I
used supports from around the yard.
Behind the 'boot' I did find a bit of wet wood and I drilled a hole up
through the exposed bottom of the sked - this ran water for a couple of
hours and then slowed down over a few days.
I had a bearing inside the boot that came up to a shoulder to form a face
that the rudder bottom bearing sat in and pivoted on. My bearing was worn a
fair bit and again with a bit (make that a lot) of heat etc it was finally
able to get it out. I replaced the bearing with a hard wearing nylon
material, althought brass/bronze would have been Ok.
When I reinstalled the boot - it was the same as the reverse although it
took a bit of juggling to line up the holes. I replaced the rivets with
stainless bolts as I couldn't find any brass rivets to replace the existing
with. Oh yeah, I also drilled a number of small holes into the rudder to
try and get rid of water.
The overall job was not technically challenging it was reasonably
straightforward. I do have some photos somewhere and if you would like to
see them I will try and work out how to attach them to an e.mail
Regards
John
"Wayfarer"
Perth Australia,
Chris - Pelican
Dec 2, 2010, 11:32:39 AM12/2/10
to Passport Owners
We actually just dropped our boat off at Dutch Wharf Boatyard in
Branford, CT to get the rudder cage replaced. Unfortunately, we don't
have the time (or the weather and facilities in the Northeast) to do
this ourselves. Our rudder cage actually got to the point where one
of the legs is completely oxidized through (some may recall my posting
of pictures a couple of years ago - yes, it degraded that quickly).
While she's at Dutch Wharf we're also having the chainplates pulled
and examined, including the backstay. It was a great ride to Dutch
Wharf (down the Hudson River to the Statue of Liberty, through the
East River and Hell Gate, into the Long Island Sound and to the
Branford River in CT). It was a bit chilly, but there's nothing like
saying that you extended your season all the way until December 1st
when you live in the Northeast. We'll have some pics on our blog soon
(www.svpelican.com).
Anyway, we're also highly interested in ANY AND ALL info that can
reduce our overall costs of having Dutch Wharf (an incredibly honest
yard that does impeccable work) do the rudder cage job. I received
pictures from Nancy Wagner at Passport with cage specifications to
fabricate a new unit (I put these up at
http://labatt.dandd.com/main.php/v/non-art/passport40/ruddercage/) but
any tips and tricks to make the job easier/less expensive would be
greatly appreciated. If anyone sends me photos related to this I'll
post them along with the specifications.
Chris
s/v/ Pelican
Passport 40 #76
> > Passport Owners Associationhttp://passportyachts.org
Branford, CT to get the rudder cage replaced. Unfortunately, we don't
have the time (or the weather and facilities in the Northeast) to do
this ourselves. Our rudder cage actually got to the point where one
of the legs is completely oxidized through (some may recall my posting
of pictures a couple of years ago - yes, it degraded that quickly).
While she's at Dutch Wharf we're also having the chainplates pulled
and examined, including the backstay. It was a great ride to Dutch
Wharf (down the Hudson River to the Statue of Liberty, through the
East River and Hell Gate, into the Long Island Sound and to the
Branford River in CT). It was a bit chilly, but there's nothing like
saying that you extended your season all the way until December 1st
when you live in the Northeast. We'll have some pics on our blog soon
(www.svpelican.com).
Anyway, we're also highly interested in ANY AND ALL info that can
reduce our overall costs of having Dutch Wharf (an incredibly honest
yard that does impeccable work) do the rudder cage job. I received
pictures from Nancy Wagner at Passport with cage specifications to
fabricate a new unit (I put these up at
http://labatt.dandd.com/main.php/v/non-art/passport40/ruddercage/) but
any tips and tricks to make the job easier/less expensive would be
greatly appreciated. If anyone sends me photos related to this I'll
post them along with the specifications.
Chris
s/v/ Pelican
Passport 40 #76
Bill Schmidt
Dec 2, 2010, 11:56:28 AM12/2/10
to Chris - Pelican, Passport Owners
Chris: When we did this to Wind Witch a number of years ago, the yard used a
"self aligning top bearing" which, by report, made it a lot easier (and less
labor charges). While the rudder is out, replace the lower bearing as well
and use Teflon packing in the packing gland.
God, do I miss Branford Harbor! We used to sail out of Duck Island Roads
years ago. This time of year we would sail up to the Mystic Seaport and stay
a few days at the NYYC dock. Nobody there but us and the guards. Cold
nights, hot chocolate and an occasional dusting of snow. MAGIC!
Have a great holiday,
Billy Manana, Wind Witch
"self aligning top bearing" which, by report, made it a lot easier (and less
labor charges). While the rudder is out, replace the lower bearing as well
and use Teflon packing in the packing gland.
God, do I miss Branford Harbor! We used to sail out of Duck Island Roads
years ago. This time of year we would sail up to the Mystic Seaport and stay
a few days at the NYYC dock. Nobody there but us and the guards. Cold
nights, hot chocolate and an occasional dusting of snow. MAGIC!
Have a great holiday,
Billy Manana, Wind Witch
svladycybil
Dec 13, 2010, 11:03:44 AM12/13/10
to Passport Owners
I removed my rusted pyramid and had one fabricated from SS with a
delrin bushing.
Instead of glassing the new pyramid in place I glassed in wood
stringers and used lag bolts to fasten
the pyramid to the wood. The lag bolts were fastened down with rudder
in place making aligment easy
and removal for servicing quite simple.
Re the rudder shoe. There is a hole in the bottom of the shoe that
allows a rod to be inserted to push out
the SS button that the rudder shaft rotated against. My button was
installed upside down, The rounded
side should be on top.
I also installed a new delrin bushing in the shoe.
I couldn't get bronze rods for the shoe so I used SS and these are
fine after 4-5 years.
My rudder had been quite stiff and I was thinking about installing
bearings. I didn't install the bearings
and found that my rudder moves very freely with the bushings.
delrin bushing.
Instead of glassing the new pyramid in place I glassed in wood
stringers and used lag bolts to fasten
the pyramid to the wood. The lag bolts were fastened down with rudder
in place making aligment easy
and removal for servicing quite simple.
Re the rudder shoe. There is a hole in the bottom of the shoe that
allows a rod to be inserted to push out
the SS button that the rudder shaft rotated against. My button was
installed upside down, The rounded
side should be on top.
I also installed a new delrin bushing in the shoe.
I couldn't get bronze rods for the shoe so I used SS and these are
fine after 4-5 years.
My rudder had been quite stiff and I was thinking about installing
bearings. I didn't install the bearings
and found that my rudder moves very freely with the bushings.
Gerard
Jan 13, 2015, 12:28:03 AM1/13/15
to Passpor...@googlegroups.com
Hi all,
i've just been reading this post, as i intend to drop the rudder on my P40 soon. She is down in Antigua and i am hoping to take the replacement bolts to the boatyard with me, in case they are not easily available locally. is anybody able to tell me what size they are please?
thanks,
Gerard
S/V Saltwhistle
Michael Moradzadeh
Jan 13, 2015, 12:45:08 AM1/13/15
to Passpor...@googlegroups.com
Just did this thanks to some help and advice from this board.
The bolts are really rivets. You can replace them with bolts if you wish. I insisted that the boatyard replace them with bronze rivets and "head" them to keep it closer to original. I THINK they were pretty standard diameter, like 3/8", but I could not swear to it.
At the end of the day, you may end up improvising a bit.
I can check with the yard manager...
The bolts are really rivets. You can replace them with bolts if you wish. I insisted that the boatyard replace them with bronze rivets and "head" them to keep it closer to original. I THINK they were pretty standard diameter, like 3/8", but I could not swear to it.
At the end of the day, you may end up improvising a bit.
I can check with the yard manager...
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Kenyon Stewart
Jan 13, 2015, 1:15:00 AM1/13/15
to Michael Moradzadeh, Passport Owners
Had the same thing on Outbound when I bought her in 2007. Went with bronze bolts instead of rivets because I plan to have it off again in the next few years. I intend to cut open and fully rebuild the rudder before taking the boat south after hearing some horror stories from others that have had theirs open.
Gerard Knight
Jan 13, 2015, 2:19:04 AM1/13/15
to Kenyon Stewart, Michael Moradzadeh, Passport Owners
Thanks. if you could verify diameter and length please Michael that would be much appreciated.
Cheers
Gerard
Richard Hurt
Jan 13, 2015, 11:32:24 AM1/13/15
to Passpor...@googlegroups.com
From: Richard Hurt [mailto:rkh...@comcast.net]
Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2015 8:29 AM
To: 'Gerard'
Subject: RE: [Passport] Re: rudder removal
Gerard,
On my 1982 P-40, the lower shoe/gudgeon is held in position as Michael described, by four 3/8” bronze rods. A heavy sealant was also used between the rudder and shoe. The rods are peened over on each end, so it is a matter of grinding off one end and driving them out with a drift punch. The plastic bearing in my shoe was badly worn, so I got a piece of Delrin and had a local shop machine a new one. I got the new rods from Svendsens chanderly, who got them from a local fastener supply. They were on hand and did not need special ordering. The rudder removal was pretty straight forward. Make sure the boat is blocked high enough to allow rudder stock clearance when lowered, or you can dig a hole. Good luck.
Rick
SV Perla, p-40 #14
Pic from sister boat
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