anchor chain
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Harvey J. Karten
Apr 29, 2015, 1:00:48 PM4/29/15
to passpor...@googlegroups.com
We have 315' of 5/16 Acco.
Anchoring in Pacific Northwest, from San Juans to Juneau, there were many occasions when we let out our full run of chain. When you have to anchor in 80 to 90 feet of water, and with tidal changes of 20-25 feet, that is barely enough for a 3:1 ratio. 60 to 90 feet of water is very common, and then when the wind is blowing at 35 knots all night, you wish you had more chain. There have even been rare occasions when we had to let out the full 315 feet and then also let out much of the backup nylon rode.
Harvey
Harvey J. Karten
hjka...@ucsd.edu
TOGNews & Birdbrains
UCSD
Sent from my iPad
Anchoring in Pacific Northwest, from San Juans to Juneau, there were many occasions when we let out our full run of chain. When you have to anchor in 80 to 90 feet of water, and with tidal changes of 20-25 feet, that is barely enough for a 3:1 ratio. 60 to 90 feet of water is very common, and then when the wind is blowing at 35 knots all night, you wish you had more chain. There have even been rare occasions when we had to let out the full 315 feet and then also let out much of the backup nylon rode.
Harvey
Harvey J. Karten
hjka...@ucsd.edu
TOGNews & Birdbrains
UCSD
Sent from my iPad
Bill Schmidt
Apr 29, 2015, 2:47:43 PM4/29/15
to Passpor...@googlegroups.com
I'm having a little problem with the mathematics to support the
testimonials about anchoring....not that I doubt anyone's veracity.
Researching the websites for both Maxwell and LoFrans electric
windlasses and pulling up the specs for their recommended units, then
getting the Acco specifications for G-4 3/8" chain weight and assuming
the use of only a 45# CQR plow, I have ignored the frictional drag of
the bow roller (but let's be honest...it isn't made by Harken and likely
is significant) and haven't attempted to estimate the lift required to
break out a buried anchor. The working load limit (average for both
manufacturers) is 513#. The load of the anchor and chain @ 300" is 500#.
So, if you are anchored in mud in the San Juan Islands @ 200", I'm
having trouble seeing how you can retrieve the tackle even with no wind
or surge unless your mate has bulging biceps/triceps/deltoids and a weak
mind. If you use a bigger anchor, BBB chain or proof chain, the
calculations are even more severe. It requires a bigger/brawnier spouse
or you most absolutely must use your head and anchor in shallower
places.Comments?
Billy Manana
testimonials about anchoring....not that I doubt anyone's veracity.
Researching the websites for both Maxwell and LoFrans electric
windlasses and pulling up the specs for their recommended units, then
getting the Acco specifications for G-4 3/8" chain weight and assuming
the use of only a 45# CQR plow, I have ignored the frictional drag of
the bow roller (but let's be honest...it isn't made by Harken and likely
is significant) and haven't attempted to estimate the lift required to
break out a buried anchor. The working load limit (average for both
manufacturers) is 513#. The load of the anchor and chain @ 300" is 500#.
So, if you are anchored in mud in the San Juan Islands @ 200", I'm
having trouble seeing how you can retrieve the tackle even with no wind
or surge unless your mate has bulging biceps/triceps/deltoids and a weak
mind. If you use a bigger anchor, BBB chain or proof chain, the
calculations are even more severe. It requires a bigger/brawnier spouse
or you most absolutely must use your head and anchor in shallower
places.Comments?
Billy Manana
Bill Schmidt
May 10, 2015, 8:57:52 PM5/10/15
to Steve Binari, passpor...@googlegroups.com, liddy
Steve, I think your analysis is absolutely correct. In most
circumstances. Most of us never encounter any kind of situation in which
the windlass was put to an extreme. It is why, I think, we all love our
all chain rode and have lots of it. But I have had at least one
experience where love was lost.
In 2004-2007 we were cruising Western Mexico, mostly the Sea of
Cortes. One of our favorite islands, northeast of La Paz, was Isla del
Espirito Santo which has lovely anchorages on all sides, including the
south west tip facing the Bay of La Paz. We made the mistake, one
evening, of anchoring there in 30' or so of water with a beautiful good
sand beach. We didn't think about the local knowledge that occasionally,
in the middle of the night, severe winds arise blowing from the south
across Baja Sur and out across the bay. Straight into our faces.
Our windlass, like nearly all that I know, is protected from
overload by a big circuit breaker. The LoFrans specifies 100 amps. We
have been using it a great deal in many places and in all kinds of
weather and, yes, we have drugged more than a few times when we didn't
have enough scope. Incidentally, because I know you will ask, the wiring
to the windlass is all double 0 Anchor, both positive and negative
sides. The longest cable length is about 12'.
We awoke that night in howling winds. The seas built rapidly such
that we were hobby horsing severely at anchor. My first instinct was to
let out more chain, a lot more. We had out 250' in 30' water. But the
night was untenable. The chain was bar tight and we were taking waves
over the bow. It was more than time to leave. With the engine running,
we tried to moved forward under power and raise the chain. No go. The
waves would fling us backward immediately as the chain tension slacked
and the circuit breaker popped. This happened again and again. The
circuit breaker, specified by the manufacturer, to protect the motor
from overload, was sensing an unsafe electric load. With me on the
foredeck, my wife gunned the throttle and very slowly we managed to
horse the chain on board and get out of a very bad situation. Oh, by the
way, we never dragged. I can only imagine how far down that anchor was
into the sand.
My analysis was, in retrospect, that with all that chain stretched
out, the windlass was barely able to retrieve. What would it have been
if we had 300'? No better, I suspect. Now I'm not impuning the windlass
or the manufacturer's recommendation for the circuit breaker. But I'm
not about to go out in front of the Golden Gate Bridge, (it's about 400'
deep there) and let out all the chain to see if I can retrieve it. Even
in flat calm water.
Billy Manana
On 5/10/2015 10:01 AM, Steve Binari wrote:
> Hi Bill,
>
> I am glad this topic came up because I am about to buy an electric windlass and new chain.
>
> I certainly don't plan in anchoring in 90' of water. But, if it were to happen, you don't have to lift the weight of the anchor until you have 90' of chain left to retrieve, right? 90' of 3/8" G4 chain would weigh 1.5 lbs/ft x 90 ft = 135 lbs. With a 45 lb anchor added in, that would be 180 lbs. The buoyancy of water would reduce this by 13% to 160 lbs. Prior to reaching the 90' point, you will be motoring forward and part of the chain will be on the ground. The Lofrans Tigres can handle a working load of 418 lbs, so I think it should handle the chain/anchor combinations that have been discussed.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Steve Binari
> s/v Albireo, #57, 1984
circumstances. Most of us never encounter any kind of situation in which
the windlass was put to an extreme. It is why, I think, we all love our
all chain rode and have lots of it. But I have had at least one
experience where love was lost.
In 2004-2007 we were cruising Western Mexico, mostly the Sea of
Cortes. One of our favorite islands, northeast of La Paz, was Isla del
Espirito Santo which has lovely anchorages on all sides, including the
south west tip facing the Bay of La Paz. We made the mistake, one
evening, of anchoring there in 30' or so of water with a beautiful good
sand beach. We didn't think about the local knowledge that occasionally,
in the middle of the night, severe winds arise blowing from the south
across Baja Sur and out across the bay. Straight into our faces.
Our windlass, like nearly all that I know, is protected from
overload by a big circuit breaker. The LoFrans specifies 100 amps. We
have been using it a great deal in many places and in all kinds of
weather and, yes, we have drugged more than a few times when we didn't
have enough scope. Incidentally, because I know you will ask, the wiring
to the windlass is all double 0 Anchor, both positive and negative
sides. The longest cable length is about 12'.
We awoke that night in howling winds. The seas built rapidly such
that we were hobby horsing severely at anchor. My first instinct was to
let out more chain, a lot more. We had out 250' in 30' water. But the
night was untenable. The chain was bar tight and we were taking waves
over the bow. It was more than time to leave. With the engine running,
we tried to moved forward under power and raise the chain. No go. The
waves would fling us backward immediately as the chain tension slacked
and the circuit breaker popped. This happened again and again. The
circuit breaker, specified by the manufacturer, to protect the motor
from overload, was sensing an unsafe electric load. With me on the
foredeck, my wife gunned the throttle and very slowly we managed to
horse the chain on board and get out of a very bad situation. Oh, by the
way, we never dragged. I can only imagine how far down that anchor was
into the sand.
My analysis was, in retrospect, that with all that chain stretched
out, the windlass was barely able to retrieve. What would it have been
if we had 300'? No better, I suspect. Now I'm not impuning the windlass
or the manufacturer's recommendation for the circuit breaker. But I'm
not about to go out in front of the Golden Gate Bridge, (it's about 400'
deep there) and let out all the chain to see if I can retrieve it. Even
in flat calm water.
Billy Manana
On 5/10/2015 10:01 AM, Steve Binari wrote:
> Hi Bill,
>
> I am glad this topic came up because I am about to buy an electric windlass and new chain.
>
> I certainly don't plan in anchoring in 90' of water. But, if it were to happen, you don't have to lift the weight of the anchor until you have 90' of chain left to retrieve, right? 90' of 3/8" G4 chain would weigh 1.5 lbs/ft x 90 ft = 135 lbs. With a 45 lb anchor added in, that would be 180 lbs. The buoyancy of water would reduce this by 13% to 160 lbs. Prior to reaching the 90' point, you will be motoring forward and part of the chain will be on the ground. The Lofrans Tigres can handle a working load of 418 lbs, so I think it should handle the chain/anchor combinations that have been discussed.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Steve Binari
> s/v Albireo, #57, 1984
Donal Botkin
Jun 15, 2015, 1:20:22 PM6/15/15
to Bill Schmidt, Steve Binari, Passport Owners
Oh Uncle Billy! That was a scary story! But what would have happened if you had been anchored with a rope rode? I’m thinking you might have had an even scarier tale to tell. Getting in 250’ of rope on a pitching foredeck at night on a lee shore? Steven King tales are nothing by comparison.
The real culprit here (other than Neptune, Aeolus . . .) is that damn circuit breaker! Protect the windlass motor? You mean the one that is about to be dashed on the rocks? What were they thinking? (Note: by ‘they’ I mean the legal department)
The heart of the problem is that most of these pleasure-boat windlasses are undersized, built cheaply and work just fine 99% of the time. I have the ‘original’ on my P40 and have rebuilt it twice. The motor is a slightly larger version of the kind found in wheelchairs, household appliances and small power tools: pressed steel frame, permanent magnet and carbon brushes. You can buy a similar motor for under $50. It is not even waterproof or even water-resistant. The circuit breaker costs more than the motor! So what is being ‘protected’? Certainly not Uncle Billy on the pitching deck.
Take a look at the winches being sold for off-road “vehicle recovery” (found on Amazon). They are all well over the capacity of most of our windlasses, most are waterproof and the motor looks far easier to replace than that provided with a windlass. Because the motor is of far better quality, it can handle more amps and keep on pulling well past 100 Amps. For example an intermediate level 9,500# rated claims 6.6HP. That is about 5KW and at the “under load” battery voltage of 10V comes out to 500 Amps.
Before doing the “What’s wrong with this picture” on the the off-road winch, let me put this into context. The working load on a windlass under the conditions that matter is far more than the 500# working load mentioned by Steve. Ten times that would be more like Billy’s situation. Here’s a quick “wind-power” calculation: my 42HP engine can push my P40 through the water at 6.5 knots; under sail alone, I can hit 7.5 in the right conditions. Downwind under bare pole with 40+ wind, 6 knots is easy. So the wind is at least capable delivering 15HP in the conditions that make it necessary to "get the hell out of there”. You’re gonna need a bigger windlass.
OK, here’s the “why not” on the off-road winch. It is slow. The power comes from gearing down to a level that would be embarrassing in 90% of all anchor recovery situations. There is limited capacity. All the drum can hold is about 50’ of cable. Add to that an appearance that only a Jeep in a ditch could love, and you come to “not on my foredeck, thank you.”
I spent five years island-hopping around the Pacific and the absolute best anchor setup I encountered was on a power boat. Actually a converted Alaska fishing craft that sold cheap minus the license. The owners had done a beautiful job on the conversion—really first class—but retained the anchor windlass from fishing days. Imagine a spool of 1000’ of cable on deck for anchoring. Almost anywhere. Recovery? Very fast, all hydraulic. Industrial look? Priceless!
My bottom line is that a circuit-breaker should not interfere with anchor recovery in a difficult situation. This means a breaker of at least 200 Amps with a ‘slo-blow’ feature that will tolerate brief overloads. Size your windlass based on that, not the other way around.
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Donal
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<bill.vcf>
The real culprit here (other than Neptune, Aeolus . . .) is that damn circuit breaker! Protect the windlass motor? You mean the one that is about to be dashed on the rocks? What were they thinking? (Note: by ‘they’ I mean the legal department)
The heart of the problem is that most of these pleasure-boat windlasses are undersized, built cheaply and work just fine 99% of the time. I have the ‘original’ on my P40 and have rebuilt it twice. The motor is a slightly larger version of the kind found in wheelchairs, household appliances and small power tools: pressed steel frame, permanent magnet and carbon brushes. You can buy a similar motor for under $50. It is not even waterproof or even water-resistant. The circuit breaker costs more than the motor! So what is being ‘protected’? Certainly not Uncle Billy on the pitching deck.
Take a look at the winches being sold for off-road “vehicle recovery” (found on Amazon). They are all well over the capacity of most of our windlasses, most are waterproof and the motor looks far easier to replace than that provided with a windlass. Because the motor is of far better quality, it can handle more amps and keep on pulling well past 100 Amps. For example an intermediate level 9,500# rated claims 6.6HP. That is about 5KW and at the “under load” battery voltage of 10V comes out to 500 Amps.
Before doing the “What’s wrong with this picture” on the the off-road winch, let me put this into context. The working load on a windlass under the conditions that matter is far more than the 500# working load mentioned by Steve. Ten times that would be more like Billy’s situation. Here’s a quick “wind-power” calculation: my 42HP engine can push my P40 through the water at 6.5 knots; under sail alone, I can hit 7.5 in the right conditions. Downwind under bare pole with 40+ wind, 6 knots is easy. So the wind is at least capable delivering 15HP in the conditions that make it necessary to "get the hell out of there”. You’re gonna need a bigger windlass.
OK, here’s the “why not” on the off-road winch. It is slow. The power comes from gearing down to a level that would be embarrassing in 90% of all anchor recovery situations. There is limited capacity. All the drum can hold is about 50’ of cable. Add to that an appearance that only a Jeep in a ditch could love, and you come to “not on my foredeck, thank you.”
I spent five years island-hopping around the Pacific and the absolute best anchor setup I encountered was on a power boat. Actually a converted Alaska fishing craft that sold cheap minus the license. The owners had done a beautiful job on the conversion—really first class—but retained the anchor windlass from fishing days. Imagine a spool of 1000’ of cable on deck for anchoring. Almost anywhere. Recovery? Very fast, all hydraulic. Industrial look? Priceless!
My bottom line is that a circuit-breaker should not interfere with anchor recovery in a difficult situation. This means a breaker of at least 200 Amps with a ‘slo-blow’ feature that will tolerate brief overloads. Size your windlass based on that, not the other way around.
View[+]Finder
Donal
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<bill.vcf>
William Ennis
Jun 15, 2015, 8:35:32 PM6/15/15
to Donal Botkin, Bill Schmidt, Steve Binari, Passport Owners
We're on Bora Bora now, and have had several opportunities to anchor in inclement situations, including in the Sea of Cortez, Isla de San Franciscito where we were blown aground for a bit by those same odd winds that Billy mentions. The sound of a keel on sand/rock is a sound immediately recognizable and fear-inducing.
Might I recommend a rebuild of an older and sturdier windlass? Our is an "original" Maxwell VT1000. I've had the motor, a Lucas starter motor for heaven's sake, rebuilt, and I've re-lubricated the gear box several times. Maxwell does sell replacement parts and the windlass itself is, as we used to say, bomber.
We have our original Nanni Diesel in our P40, and as fond of it as I am (usually), I recognize that it would be, and has been, underpowered for some situations. A more robust engine would have decreased the need for a windlass that could lift the boat.
I do agree that unless you spend a lot of money, modern consumer-focused marine gear is inadequate. For most sailors, it's fine, or for a lot of coastal cruising, it's fine, but there's little incentive for manufacturers to produce "cruiser-level" equipment. In the old days, they wanted their stuff to last forever, but not these days. It's designed to work for 95% of the customers, not the few who are cruising and using heavily the gear.
Being from Alaska, I'm very familiar with the anchoring system that you, Donal, mention. Imagine just changing some cable rather than all of that chain? I know of several converted fishing boats that maintained their commercial anchor-retrieval system.
B. Ennis
hull 78
--
The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea. Isaac Dennison
ChinaDoll
Jun 16, 2015, 11:52:30 PM6/16/15
to Passpor...@googlegroups.com
I think it is like a lot of things... It is all relative. You cannot simply add longer heavier chain plus a bigger anchor to an existing windlass that's probably already overloaded without upgrading to a beefier and larger windlass. (No one does this as it's easier to "upgrade" anything but the windlass.) These windlass systems are rated for a reason. But then the ratings done don't consider the extream conditions that may be encountered either. Usually if the anchor and chain (length increased or switching to an all chain rode, weight of both anchor and chain is the pulling power per amp consumed) will be done up in an overrated manner, for the size of boat and conditions expected, then the windlass should be overrated --but not an overrated windlass. Also improperly adding what could simply be an already bad circuit breaker can be an issue where the rating of the amp loads on the windlass isn't reached, but the breaker pops anyway. The heavy load breaker needs to be a certain type of breker (slow fuse type) that has to inconvenintly be located very close to the windlass motor so not to sense the load on the wire, and then there the issue of having a 200 amp load rated motor in a boat that cannot produce 200 amps in power, specially way up in a bow locker far far away from the power source, even if there's a colocated battery nearby.
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