Re: Consciousness and matter
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Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal
Apr 22, 2017, 5:14:38 PM4/22/17
to VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL, Online Sadhu Sanga
Respected Vinod ji,
Thanks.
Consciousness-in-itself
In the eDAM, the potential consciousness-it-itself = UPC (universal potential consciousness) ~ (approximately) the mental aspect of the unmanifested/latent/potential state of the primal entity (Brahman). The manifested/realized consciousness-it-itself ~ the experiential aspect of consciousness at Nirvikalpa Samādhi (NS) state.
In Sāṅkhya, consciousness-it-itself ~ NS-state Puruṣa (presumably completely withdrawn from physical, astral, and causal bodies, i.e., Prakṛti).
The above equivalency is approximate (shown by ~) because “direct perception”, knowing, understanding, experiences are still the properties of brain-mind system in MDR even in NS-state, whereas consciousness-in-itself is a MIR entity, which, by definition, cannot be known by any means even if it is useless for us.
Matter-in-itself
In the eDAM, the potential matter-it-itself = quantum vacuum or ZPF ~ (approximately) the physical aspect of the unmanifested/latent/potential state of the primal entity (Brahman). The manifested/realized matter-it-itself ~ whatever a yogi experiences at Nirvikalpa Samādhi (NS) state when s/he look at any matter (such as a chair).
In Sāṅkhya, matter-it-itself ~ NS-state experience of Mūla-Prakṛti) i.e., whatever a yogi experiences at NS state when s/he look at any matter (such as a chair).
Kind regards,
Rām
----------------------------------------------------------
Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.
Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)
Vision Research Institute, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.
25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USA
Ph: +1 978 954 7522; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907
Researched at University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools
On Saturday, 22 April 2017 7:24 AM, VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL <vinodse...@gmail.com> wrote:
Respected Dr Ram,
As the name indicates, state of consciousness-in-itself is the state of consciousness when consciousness shall be free from all other states and get embedded and firmly established in itself. In the awakened state, our consciousness is established in body/brain and mind. One of the attributes of consciousness is that it perceives itself to be in the same identity at which it is established. Therefore, in the awakened state, consciousness though distinct from physical body and mind, but identifies itself with the body and mind. Therefore, in the normal awakened state, we can't achieve the state of consciousness -in-itself.
When we can know of any state? Obviously, when we ( i.e our consciousness) shall be present in that state. If you have a two storeyed house while residing at ground floor, how can you know of Ist floor if you ( i.e your consciousness) remains present at the Ist floor only. If you want to know about the Ist floor, there is no other way out but to remain present at the Ist floor and fact is that if you want to remain present at the Ist floor, you need to leave the ground floor.
So from the above illustration, it can be easily concluded that while in the normal awakened state, we i.e our consciousness can't be present in the state of consciousness-in-itself since we are present in the bod/brain and mind. Since while in the normal awakened state, we are present in the states of body/brain and mind which are not the state of consciousness- i n-itself, therefore, any question of knowing about the state of consciousness-in-itself thru any subjective or objective means in the awakened state is irrelevant. So how to enter the state of consciousness-in-itself? In order to know about ist floor of your house, you are required to be present at the Ist floor of house and for reaching Ist floor of the house, there is no other way out but to leave ground floor. Similarly, in order to know about the state of consciousness-in-itself, you i.e your consciousness has to be present in the state of consciousness only and for that presence there is no other way out but to leave other states viz that of consciousness in body and consciousness in mind. This task of leaving of consciousness from the states consciousness in body and consciousness in mind and entering the state of consciousness in consciousness is achieved thru the methodology of a unique and special Samaadhi called NS.
In the aforesaid state of NS, state of consciousness -in-itself can be "known" but that "known" is not in the normal conventional sense to which we are are frequently attuned to in our normal awakened state. What is that "knowing" will dawn only when we shall remain present in that state. Any logical argument or metaphysics or theoretical model that without mind, nothing can be "known" is not of any use. As a crude analogy, you can't know of dream state unless you remain yourself in dream state. Any argument or theoretical metaphysics about dream state is not of much use, unless you remain present in the dream state,.Therefore, any hypothesis built upon any theoretical metaphysics or model or logic that consciousness is unable to know without brain or mind is not of much use unless one may actually enter the states of consciousness-in-itself.. Evidence of any "knowing" comes from the consciousness itself when it actually "knows" rather from any intellectual hypothesis.
Before reaching the state of consciousness-in-itself, consciousness reaches the states in SS which are lower than NS but higher than awakened state. In this state, consciousness can know of higher realms of nature viz Astral and Causal worlds and bodies. It is in this state of SS that consciousness knows how and where process of cognition is being accomplished for which host of neuroscientists, philosophers, logicians and mathematicians are struggling hard since decades with all sort of innovative models.. It is in this state that consciousness comes to awareness that the physical world has been a projection of the Astral world. It is in this state that consciousness can observe in all its vividness mechanism of the transformation of of the Astral ingredients into the Physical ingredients.
But the state of consciousness-in-itself is not relevant in the metaphysics of Materialism and eDAM. Though I didn't intend to use the word of any metaphysics in particular but I am constrained to use the words of these two metaphysics in order to illustrate my point of view.
Why state of consciousness-in-itself is irrelevant in Materialism and eDAM.? In Materialism, consciousness is hypothesized to have been produced from matter. Therefore, consciousness can never leave matter, therefore, it can also never be in its state of consciousness -in-itself. however, state of matter-in-itself is compatible with Materialism.
in eDAM, though consciousness does not takes birth from matter but it manifests from the same ontological state from which matter manifests, therefore, in eDAM consciousness and matter remain in close conjunction with each other. Neither of the consciousness or matter can become can become totally free from each other. other. Therefore, both the states of consciousness -in-itself and matter-in--itself are incompatible in the framework of eDAM.
For a true state of consciousness-in-itself, consciousness need to be totally free from all other secondary states, ontology, as linked to consciousness directly ( Materialism) and indirectly ( eDAM). In view of the foregoing, state of consciousness -in-itself is inconsistent with Materialism and eDAM.
_______________________________________________________________________
Now some of my views about Matter -in-itself. State of matter -in-itself is the ultimate state of matter from which all the phenomenal reality of the Physical, Astral, Causal world is derived. The state of matter-in-itself is closest to the state of consciousness-in-itself than any phenomenal reality of the Physical, Astral and Causal world. The way state of consciousness-in-itself is not "knowable" thru any subjective or objective means in the normal awakened state, state of matter-in-itself also remains "unknowable" in the normal awakened state. State of matter-in-itself can't be known in the state of SS also since in SS, consciousness is in the Astral and causal realms where phenomenal reality of matter-in-itself is present. Therefore, for knowing the state of matter-in-itself, consciousness has to reach the state of matter in itself and that become feasible when consciousness leaves the phenomenal reality of the Astral and causal realms, which in themselves are the derived forms of matter-in-itself.
As indicated at the outset, state of matter-in-itself is the state most closest to the state of consciousness in itself. Therefore, after leaving all the phenomenal reality of all the 3 worlds viz physical, astral and causal, but before entering the state of consciousness-in-itself in NS, consciousness enters the state of matter in itself and "knowability" of the same becomes feasible. This is the highest state of SS.
__________________________________________________________________________-
To sum up, whole critique above conforms to certain logical and rational principles.
i) States of consciousness-in-consciousness and matter-in-itself are realities and these states do exist.
ii) All the 'knowing" is done at the level of consciousness whether with or without the aid of brain and mind.
iii) For "knowing" any state of consciousness or of matter, consciousness has to enter that state of consciousness or matter implying consciousnesshas to remain present in that state . Same becomes possible when consciousness leaves all the lower level states of consciousness and matter.
iv) For entering the state of consciousness-in-itself, consciousness has to leave all the states of the phenomenal reality. of the matter-in-itself in the physical, Astral and causal worlds. Brain is a state of phenomenal reality of the physical world and mind is a state of of the phenomenal reality of the Astral world. Therefore, for achieving the state of consciousness-in-itself and matter-in-itself, consciousness has to leave body /brain and mind. This becomes feasible in NS.
v) In the normal awakened state of consciousness, none of the state of consciousness-in-itself or matter-in-itself can be known thru any of subjective or objective means simply due to reasons that consciousness is not present in either of these states.
vi) State of matter-in-itself is in the closest proximity to the state of consciousness -in-itself than any other state of matter ( derivatives of matter-in-itself). In view of this, just before entering the state of consciousness -in-itself but after crossing all the states of consciousness in matter, consciousness enters the state of matter-in-itself and this state becomes "knowable".
vii) Feasibility of entering the states of consciousness-in-itself and matter-in-itself becomes feasible when consciousness becomes totally free from all other states of consciousness in matter. In other words, consciousness needs to be free from all the phenomenal reality of the matter, as directly or indirectly linked to the forms of body/brain( physical body) and mind( Astral body).
viii) In Materialism and eDAM, there is no place for consciousness to be totally free directly or indirectly from matter. Therefore, concepts of consciousness-in-itself is inconsistent with materialism though matter-in-itself is compatible. eDAM is inconsistent with both consciousness-it-self and matter-in-itsel.
.
You may please think over the above critique with open mind and see if this can provide any new insight to you.
Regards
Vinod Sehgal
Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal
Apr 24, 2017, 5:46:53 PM4/24/17
to Vinod Sehgal, Online Sadhu Sanga, Asingh2384, Murty Hari
Respected Vinod ji,
Thanks.
Your arguments are based on the problematic Sāṅkhya because the terms used are Sāṅkhya’s terms such manas, buddhi, astral, causal, manifested consciousness, real, etc. I would more or less agree with you if I think in Sāṅkhya’s point of view including the definitions of consciousness-in-itself only or matter-in-itself only. You think that you are describing data, but it is not true because Y.N. Swami ji had rigorous training in Sāṅkhya (nil in the eDAM) and his books are based on Sāṅkhya and Vedanta.
However, my arguments are based on the least problematic eDAM. The problems you mentioned are your misunderstanding of the eDAM, which I tried to address them and suggested reading neuroscience, other relevant branches of science such as theory of evolution, cosmology, and 10 formulations and 49 interpretations of QM (esp. ('t Hooft, 2015; de la Peña, Cetto & Valdes-Hernandez, 2015)), classical and Planck level physics as background to really understand eDAM.
In the bottom-up eDAM, the consciousness-in-itself and the matter-in-itself are the mental and inseparable physical aspects of the NS-state of our mind-brain system; therefore, we cannot dichotomize like done in dualistic top-down theist Sāṅkhya. The NS-state cannot be described in words; it is ineffable; we just need to experience it; there is no escape from this. I am skeptic about this state that thoughts are zero and it is thoughtless and mindless. I prefer to say that they are at their minimum level, but are zero. So the experience of consciousness-in-itself and matter-in-itself (such as chair-in-itself) is approximate, not precise.
The major problem in our discussion is you base your writing on Sāṅkhya and I base on the eDAM. Perhaps, if we try to think in both views and compare them in our minds then we might agree with each other as I did above. When a yogi or an interpreter tries to express anything such as experience, view, thought, s/he needs a language. This means we need to think in terms of both Sāṅkhya and the eDAM, and struggle in our minds to make sense of out of it. For example, above I implicitly presented my views in both top-down Sāṅkhya and the bottom-up eDAM; they obviously differ; but why? My answer is that the Sāṅkhya has 8 problems as elaborated in (Vimal, 2010d), (Vimal, 2012c), and (Vimal, 2013), which needs to be resolved. Let us work on it first. You and Dr. Hari tried to address them but they are not satisfactory to me and I wrote back the justifications to both of you. Please read carefully endnote 57 (Dr. Hari’s response and my justifications) and Section 6.5.4.14 (our discussion 29-June-2016 and onwards) of (Vimal, 2012c).
Cheers!
Kind regards,
Rām
----------------------------------------------------------
Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.
Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)
Vision Research Institute, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.
25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USA
Ph: +1 978 954 7522; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907
Researched at University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools
Respected Dr Ram,
In eDAM, when consciousness-jn-itself and matter-in-itself always remain linked due to both being manifested from the common ontology, how consciousness shall stay in consciousness only? Same thing is applicable on matter-in-itself. After all, concepts of consciousness -in-itself MEANS CONSCIOUSNESS -IN-CONSCIOUSNESS ONLY. Same logic is applicable to matter -in-itself. So in my view both this concepts are invalid in eDAM. However, I expected your response on this particular issue.
Yes, consciousness-in-itself and matter-in-itself are are unknown realities by the normal mind-brain system thru which we " know" in the awakened conscious state. However, as elaborated in my previous email, limitation of knowing thru mind-brain system gets over in SS(partly) and NS(fully). In SS, consciousness -in-itself and matter-in-itself don't become knowable. That task is completed in NS. In SS, it is the phenomenal reality of the Astral and Causal worlds which becomes knowable.
A word about "knowing". "knowing" is composed of more than one element, each one of which needs to be understood in proper perspective. " Knowing" comprises of just knowing, sensing AND understanding, interpreting and reverse function of describing. Ist part i.e just knowing or sensing is done by consciousness whether thru mind/brain system or otherwise. Any signal, when projected before consciousness whether thru mind or mind-brain system or even directly is just sensed or "known" by consciousness
Second part of the function i.e. Understanding, interpreting and description are completed by Mind including Buddhi and than this understanding, interpretation and description are also 'sensed' by consciousness. It is due to these reasons that in NS consciousness -in-itself and matter-in-itself are "known" or just sensed but not interpreted and described due to the absence of mind and Buddhi. It is also due to the same reasons that though different Yogis/Sages/Achaarsyss had known or sensed the same final reality of the cosmic consciousness but their interpretations varied since interpretations flowed from their minds and their minds /approach had been different. This led to different metaphysicses. Host of interpreters, who themselves had no practical experience of knowing of the cosmic consciousness and internal Astral and causal world, in the long intervening period, further added to confusion by adding/deleting from their speculative confusion. In view of this, whenever we read interpretation of any Metaphysics, Ist question we should ask if the interpreter himself has had the experience of the same in the state in Samaadhi or at least the text, based upon which interpretation is being made by the interpreter , has been written or narrated by the person who himself had the actual experience.
My interpretation of Sankhya is based upon texts as written by persons who themselves had the actual experience in the state of Samaadhi for reasons as stated above, I trusts such interpretations most. My interpretation of inseparability is different than in eDAM. I treat cosmic consciousness or Purusha as infinite holistic one which always remains in close conjunction with discrete Prakriti , therefore, inseparable, but it does not undergoes thru any transformation or changes, the one thru which Prakriti undergoes at creation as well as at present. At all times, same unaffected consciousness manifests at all levels of Prakriti be it Causal or Astral or Physical body /brain level. In eDAM, consciousness does not remains insulated from the changes thru which Prakriti undergoes. With the creation, consciousness in unmanifested form is also carried forward along with discrete matter particles, undergoes thru the same process and dealt by the same Laws as applicable to matter. In view of this, there is no privileged status to consciousness in eDAM. Only for namesake, it is consciousness otherwise process and Laws by which it is dealt with are the as for Materialism.
What is meant by real and unreal? The most popular notion of real in general public as well scientific community about real and unreal has been that real is that one which has some existence and unreal is that one which is bereft of any existence. From this perspective, objects that we see in dreams are real since they have existence of their own. Had there been no existence of the objects in the dream state, how could we see in actually with our mental eyes and then all sort of emotions generated? We see a lion in dreams and fear is generated actually
From this perspective even a lion seen on a TV screen is real since it has existence in the sense that it is composed from the stuff of e.m light, and which has actual existence.. So in dreams lion is composed from Tanmaatric stuff of the Astral world. In physical world lion is composed from physical stuff of atoms/molecules and on TV screen, lion is composed of e.m. Light. Every realm is real as well as unreal depending the level /stage of consciousness. In dreams, all thr phenomenal reality appears real but when consciousness shifts to the awakened conscious state , same reality starts appearing unreal. Phenomenal reality of physical world appears real in physical world but the same reality will appear unreal when consciousness will shift upwards in SS stage.. Finally when the consciousness gets identified with cosmic consciousness in NS, phenomenal reality st all levels from causal to dreams shall become unreal. Therefore reality of the physical world does not carry any extra tag compared to the reality of other worlds or realms. But it appears extra real since from birth to birth, our consciousness passes entire period of life in this realm only.
What I had indicated in my last mail that if Quantum Vacuum is physical one, dual aspect QFs can't take birth from that vacuum. Therefore, hypothesis of dual aspect QFs is inconsistent with physical vacuum of quantum theoreticians. I wanted your response on this specific. Issue.
When a Yogi whose consciousness is also established in NS state looks at a chair with open eyes, he will sense the matter-in-itself of the chair as well as phenomenal reality of the chair.
Vinod Sehgal
In eDAM, when consciousness-jn-itself and matter-in-itself always remain linked due to both being manifested from the common ontology, how consciousness shall stay in consciousness only? Same thing is applicable on matter-in-itself. After all, concepts of consciousness -in-itself MEANS CONSCIOUSNESS -IN-CONSCIOUSNESS ONLY. Same logic is applicable to matter -in-itself. So in my view both this concepts are invalid in eDAM. However, I expected your response on this particular issue.
Yes, consciousness-in-itself and matter-in-itself are are unknown realities by the normal mind-brain system thru which we " know" in the awakened conscious state. However, as elaborated in my previous email, limitation of knowing thru mind-brain system gets over in SS(partly) and NS(fully). In SS, consciousness -in-itself and matter-in-itself don't become knowable. That task is completed in NS. In SS, it is the phenomenal reality of the Astral and Causal worlds which becomes knowable.
A word about "knowing". "knowing" is composed of more than one element, each one of which needs to be understood in proper perspective. " Knowing" comprises of just knowing, sensing AND understanding, interpreting and reverse function of describing. Ist part i.e just knowing or sensing is done by consciousness whether thru mind/brain system or otherwise. Any signal, when projected before consciousness whether thru mind or mind-brain system or even directly is just sensed or "known" by consciousness
Second part of the function i.e. Understanding, interpreting and description are completed by Mind including Buddhi and than this understanding, interpretation and description are also 'sensed' by consciousness. It is due to these reasons that in NS consciousness -in-itself and matter-in-itself are "known" or just sensed but not interpreted and described due to the absence of mind and Buddhi. It is also due to the same reasons that though different Yogis/Sages/Achaarsyss had known or sensed the same final reality of the cosmic consciousness but their interpretations varied since interpretations flowed from their minds and their minds /approach had been different. This led to different metaphysicses. Host of interpreters, who themselves had no practical experience of knowing of the cosmic consciousness and internal Astral and causal world, in the long intervening period, further added to confusion by adding/deleting from their speculative confusion. In view of this, whenever we read interpretation of any Metaphysics, Ist question we should ask if the interpreter himself has had the experience of the same in the state in Samaadhi or at least the text, based upon which interpretation is being made by the interpreter , has been written or narrated by the person who himself had the actual experience.
My interpretation of Sankhya is based upon texts as written by persons who themselves had the actual experience in the state of Samaadhi for reasons as stated above, I trusts such interpretations most. My interpretation of inseparability is different than in eDAM. I treat cosmic consciousness or Purusha as infinite holistic one which always remains in close conjunction with discrete Prakriti , therefore, inseparable, but it does not undergoes thru any transformation or changes, the one thru which Prakriti undergoes at creation as well as at present. At all times, same unaffected consciousness manifests at all levels of Prakriti be it Causal or Astral or Physical body /brain level. In eDAM, consciousness does not remains insulated from the changes thru which Prakriti undergoes. With the creation, consciousness in unmanifested form is also carried forward along with discrete matter particles, undergoes thru the same process and dealt by the same Laws as applicable to matter. In view of this, there is no privileged status to consciousness in eDAM. Only for namesake, it is consciousness otherwise process and Laws by which it is dealt with are the as for Materialism.
What is meant by real and unreal? The most popular notion of real in general public as well scientific community about real and unreal has been that real is that one which has some existence and unreal is that one which is bereft of any existence. From this perspective, objects that we see in dreams are real since they have existence of their own. Had there been no existence of the objects in the dream state, how could we see in actually with our mental eyes and then all sort of emotions generated? We see a lion in dreams and fear is generated actually
From this perspective even a lion seen on a TV screen is real since it has existence in the sense that it is composed from the stuff of e.m light, and which has actual existence.. So in dreams lion is composed from Tanmaatric stuff of the Astral world. In physical world lion is composed from physical stuff of atoms/molecules and on TV screen, lion is composed of e.m. Light. Every realm is real as well as unreal depending the level /stage of consciousness. In dreams, all thr phenomenal reality appears real but when consciousness shifts to the awakened conscious state , same reality starts appearing unreal. Phenomenal reality of physical world appears real in physical world but the same reality will appear unreal when consciousness will shift upwards in SS stage.. Finally when the consciousness gets identified with cosmic consciousness in NS, phenomenal reality st all levels from causal to dreams shall become unreal. Therefore reality of the physical world does not carry any extra tag compared to the reality of other worlds or realms. But it appears extra real since from birth to birth, our consciousness passes entire period of life in this realm only.
What I had indicated in my last mail that if Quantum Vacuum is physical one, dual aspect QFs can't take birth from that vacuum. Therefore, hypothesis of dual aspect QFs is inconsistent with physical vacuum of quantum theoreticians. I wanted your response on this specific. Issue.
When a Yogi whose consciousness is also established in NS state looks at a chair with open eyes, he will sense the matter-in-itself of the chair as well as phenomenal reality of the chair.
Vinod Sehgal
From: Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal
Sent: 23-04-2017 22:07
To: VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL
Cc: G. Srinivasan; BVKSastry(Gmail)
Subject: Re: Consciousness and matter
Respected Vinod ji,
In my view, consciousness-in-itself and matter-in-itself are unknown MIR entities, by definition. We are trying to know them when the mind is least effective; for which the closest is (Nirvikalpa Samādhi (NS) state. Therefore, in the eDAM, approximately, they are the mental and physical aspects of the NS-state, respectively. I hold my view on them as before.
I am not sure that your description of Sāṅkhya (call it VS-Sāṅkhya) is Kapila’s original atheist Sāṅkhya. We need to verify with researchers in Sāṅkhya, such as Srinivasan ji, Sastri ji, and Misra ji. However, your interpretation of Sāṅkhya seems close to the eDAM in inseparability sense, but different in approach (your Sāṅkhya is top-down and eDAM is bottom-up).
In the eDAM, I am trying to keep the same logic in all states for the sake of uniformity. In your VS-Sāṅkhya, logics are different in different states and hence there is no uniformity and creates mysteries as in classical vs. quantum logics. Dreams, such as flying, appear real in dreams (such as Hanuman’s flying in a TV-serial episode), but they are not real as normally defined (we cannot fly on our own). Dreams have verified neurophysiological explanation.
Since entities can have more than one state; so it is better to propose that a state is dual-aspect. QFs are fluctuations in ZPF, such as the emergence of Planck energy in Planck time; you may like to read Wikipedia for QFs and quantum vacuum.
It is possible for a yogi to do open eye meditation and then s/he can look at a chair or any classical object when s/he is in NS-state.
Kind regards,
Rām
----------------------------------------------------------
Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.
Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)
Vision Research Institute, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.
25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USA
Ph: +1 978 954 7522; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907
Researched at University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools
Respected Dr Ram,
Thanks.
Consciousness-in-itself
In the eDAM, the potential consciousness-it-itself = UPC (universal potential consciousness) ~ (approximately) the mental aspect of the unmanifested/latent/potential state of the primal entity (Brahman). The manifested/realized consciousness-it-itself ~ the experiential aspect of consciousness at Nirvikalpa Samādhi (NS) state.
What I wanted to highlight and draw your attention to was:
i) Concept of consciousness-in-itself implies consciousness should be embedded in itself only. This means consciousness should be free or de-linked directly or indirectly from all other ontologies.
[The entire original message is not included.]
Anirudh Satsangi
Apr 25, 2017, 6:39:22 AM4/25/17
to Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com
It is not consciousness and matter. Consciousness may be divided into Energy and Matter.
Regards
Anirudh Kumar Satsangi
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/Online_Sadhu_Sanga/571798313.8017260.1493058661120%40mail.yahoo.com.--
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Tusar Nath Mohapatra
Apr 25, 2017, 1:26:09 PM4/25/17
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The metaphysical basis for Integral Health — the nature of reality
Dr. Soumitra Basu
[In Chapter V of The Life Divine, Sri Aurobindo introduces a concept which has not only a bearing metaphysical thought but has enormous consequences in the fields of science and health:
“... the Reality is one and not a sum or concourse (1).” Read more...]
[ Sri Aurobindo describes how consciousness is simultaneously pluri-dimensional and integral. Moreover it is also simultaneously transcendental, universal and individual. The Supreme creative consciousness is situated in the Transcendental plane, where creative ‘Real-Ideas’ are programmed. These are supramental archetypal ideas that have in-built energy for execution and are translated as transcripts in the universal consciousness from where they materialise into individual forms. If the Supreme creative consciousness is at one end of the spectrum of consciousness, the material world is at another end of the continuum. In between lies the whole range of consciousness organised as planes, energy-substrates and matrices of ‘Knowledge-Force’(known as Chit-Śakti in the Indian tradition). It is in this gestalt that the human being manifests.
Reality is thus represented by an all-encompassing consciousness where the unitary essence does not belittle the multiplicity. Translated in practical terms in the domain of physical sciences, the exploration of the atomic structure is as necessary as the appreciation of the primal ether in which all sub-atomic particles lapse by becoming formless. In the domain of health, the proliferation of multiple specialist disciplines catering to different organ systems are important but can lose relevance if it is not related to the well-being that arises by being pivoted around what is the immortal essence in us. This is because at the end, Reality is one and not a sum or concourse.]
Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal
Apr 25, 2017, 1:26:17 PM4/25/17
to Anirudh Satsangi, Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com, VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL, Asingh2384
Dear Anirudh ji,
Thanks.
However, E=mc^2, i.e., matter = physical energy. Therefore, it is consciousness as 1pp-mental aspect and matter/physical_energy as inseparable 3pp-physical aspect of a state of the (primal) entity (Brahman). It is the same information, but 'viewing' it from two different perspectives: 1pp (1st person perspective) vs. 3pp (3rd pp).
Kind regards,
Rām
----------------------------------------------------------
Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.
Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)
Vision Research Institute, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.
25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USA
Ph: +1 978 954 7522; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907
Researched at University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools
Researched at University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools
Respected Dr Ram,Thanks.Consciousness-in-itself
In the eDAM, the potential consciousness- it-itself = UPC (universal potential consciousness) ~ (approximately) the mental aspect of the unmanifested/latent/potential state of the primal entity (Brahman). The manifested/realized consciousness-it-itself ~ the experiential aspect of consciousness at Nirvikalpa Samādhi (NS) state.
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Anirudh Satsangi
Apr 28, 2017, 9:01:14 AM4/28/17
to Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal, Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com, VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL, Asingh2384
Thanks Dr. Ram for your very very enlightening response.
How physical energy is different from spiritual energy? I am not convinced that there is any fifth mysterious force.
Best Wishes
Anirudh Kumar Satsagi
6, Dayalkunj, Dayalbagh, Agra.
On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 6:25 PM, Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal <rlpv...@yahoo.co.in> wrote:
Dear Anirudh ji,Thanks.However, E=mc^2, i.e., matter = physical energy. Therefore, it is consciousness as 1pp-mental aspect and matter/physical_energy as inseparable 3pp-physical aspect of a state of the (primal) entity (Brahman). It is the same information, but 'viewing' it from two different perspectives: 1pp (1st person perspective) vs. 3pp (3rd pp).Kind regards,Rām----------------------------------------------------------Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)Vision Research Institute, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USAPh: +1 978 954 7522; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907Researched at University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools
It is not consciousness and matter. Consciousness may be divided into Energy and Matter.RegardsAnirudh Kumar Satsangi
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Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal
Apr 28, 2017, 11:36:55 AM4/28/17
to Anirudh Satsangi, Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com, VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL, Asingh2384
Dear Anirudh ji,
Thanks.
In the Dvi-Pakṣa Advaita (eDAM), a physical energy is a part of the 3pp-physical aspect and a spiritual energy is a part the inseparable 1pp-mental aspect of a spiritual state (such as Samādhi state) of a mind-brain system. It is the same information, but 'viewing' it from two different perspectives: 1pp (1st person perspective) vs. 3pp (3rd pp).
I agree that there is no evidence of the 5th mysterious force in addition to four physical (gravitation, EM, weak and strong) forces. However, the 6th sense in us is a possibility to explain paranormal, rebirth, NDEs, OBEs, Samādhi state experiences, which may not be explained thru our five senses. This is because all these experiences must have neural basis as per neuroscience. For further detail please see Section 2.1, 2.3.3, 5.8.3, 5.32.1, 5.35, 5.37-5.40 of (Vimal, 2009d).
Kind regards,
Rām
----------------------------------------------------------
Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.
Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)
Vision Research Institute, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.
25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USA
Ph: +1 978 954 7522; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907
Researched at University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools
Thanks Dr. Ram for your very very enlightening response.
How physical energy is different from spiritual energy? I am not convinced that there is any fifth mysterious force.
Best Wishes
Anirudh Kumar Satsagi
6, Dayalkunj, Dayalbagh, Agra.
On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 6:25 PM, Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal <rlpv...@yahoo.co.in> wrote:
Dear Anirudh ji,Thanks.However, E=mc^2, i.e., matter = physical energy. Therefore, it is consciousness as 1pp-mental aspect and matter/physical_energy as inseparable 3pp-physical aspect of a state of the (primal) entity (Brahman). It is the same information, but 'viewing' it from two different perspectives: 1pp (1st person perspective) vs. 3pp (3rd pp).
Kind regards,Rām
------------------------------ ----------------------------Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)Vision Research Institute, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USAPh: +1 978 954 7522; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907Researched at University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools
It is not consciousness and matter. Consciousness may be divided into Energy and Matter.RegardsAnirudh Kumar Satsangi
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/ msgid/Online_Sadhu_Sanga/ CAN93pGSsSU7nAEZq% 2BNi8SN7GYoNSvM1juWLM6nZFCU5tt Z0cBg%40mail.gmail.com.
Anirudh Satsangi
Apr 29, 2017, 11:16:08 AM4/29/17
to Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal, Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com, VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL, Asingh2384
Dear Dr. Ram
Thanks for your very nice response. But all our experiences whether temporal or spiritual have their neural bases. Our all experiences even what we get during meditation or state of samadhi are given meaning at our brain level. And there is all possibilities that such experiences are explained differently by different persons who receive these experiences even if they are identical experiences. The difference of recall of these experiences is dependent on the geographical conditions, language, culture etc. Kindly also enlighten us on this topic.
Regards
Anirudh Kumar Satsangi
Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal
Apr 29, 2017, 4:18:59 PM4/29/17
to Anirudh Satsangi, Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com, VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL, Asingh2384
Dear Anirudh ji,
Thanks.
I agree with you. Since experiences are personal and
depend on the infrastructure of a mind-brain system, on the
context/environment, and other factors, they can be different. Trichromats will
experience a ripe tomato reddish, but achromats it will be grayish. Theist Vedāntists
report different experiences compared to atheist Buddhists for Samādhi state
experiences. However, some of the experiences (such as bliss/ānanda at Samādhi
state) are more or less common to most of the subjects because their neural
bases are also more or less common.
Kind regards,
Rām
----------------------------------------------------------
Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.
Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)
Vision Research Institute, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.
25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USA
Ph: +1 978 954 7522; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907
Researched at University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools
Dear Dr. Ram
Thanks for your very nice response. But all our experiences whether temporal or spiritual have their neural bases. Our all experiences even what we get during meditation or state of samadhi are given meaning at our brain level. And there is all possibilities that such experiences are explained differently by different persons who receive these experiences even if they are identical experiences. The difference of recall of these experiences is dependent on the geographical conditions, language, culture etc. Kindly also enlighten us on this topic.
Regards
Anirudh Kumar Satsangi
On Fri, Apr 28, 2017 at 9:01 PM, Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal <rlpv...@yahoo.co.in> wrote:
Dear Anirudh ji,Thanks.In the Dvi-Pakṣa Advaita (eDAM), a physical energy is a part of the 3pp-physical aspect and a spiritual energy is a part the inseparable 1pp-mental aspect of a spiritual state (such as Samādhi state) of a mind-brain system. It is the same information, but 'viewing' it from two different perspectives: 1pp (1st person perspective) vs. 3pp (3rd pp).I agree that there is no evidence of the 5th mysterious force in addition to four physical (gravitation, EM, weak and strong) forces. However, the 6th sense in us is a possibility to explain paranormal, rebirth, NDEs, OBEs, Samādhi state experiences, which may not be explained thru our five senses. This is because all these experiences must have neural basis as per neuroscience. For further detail please see Section 2.1, 2.3.3, 5.8.3, 5.32.1, 5.35, 5.37-5.40 of (Vimal, 2009d).
Kind regards,Rām
Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal
Apr 30, 2017, 4:55:16 AM4/30/17
to Vinod Sehgal, Online Sadhu Sanga, Anirudh Satsangi, Asingh2384
Dear Vinod ji,
Thanks.
In my view, neurons do not create the experiences (materialism) or vice versa (idealism), rather they are the physical and inseparable mental aspects of an ontic/conscious state of a mind-brain system. The dualistic Sāṅkhya’s terms such as astral, causal, and manifested worlds (if really exist!) are NOT real in the physical world where we live. Therefore, there is no point in getting confused with those entities which are not real, rather they are simply illusions (like dreams) in our physical world. None of us live in those worlds; let them to discuss who can travel and live in those worlds; for us, they are not very useful; we cannot take for granted what others say; we have to experience ourselves because NS-state experiences are ineffable. Therefore, we should first try to understand phenomena of our own real physical world.
As we discussed before, if you would like defend Sāṅkhya then you must first address its 8 serious irresolvable problems, until then we should work on the least problematic foundational Dvi-Pakṣa Advaita (eDAM) framework and critically examine if it can explain all phenomena of our physical world including us. The problems are elaborated in Chapter 2 (Section 2.4 for Sāṅkhya) of (Vimal, 2012c).
Kind regards,
Rām
----------------------------------------------------------
Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.
Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)
Vision Research Institute, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.
25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USA
Ph: +1 978 954 7522; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907
Researched at University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools
On Saturday, 29 April 2017 9:50 PM, Vinod Sehgal <vinodse...@gmail.com> wrote:
Dear Ram and Satsangiji,
It is not that only neurons creates the experiences. Experiences in the normal awakened state are created from by the joint aggregate of neurons in the physical brain and astral mind as transcendental to physical brain. In the state of Samaadhi, experiences can arise with only astral mind also.
It is not that all the states of Samaadhi are bliss dominant.
Experience of the ultimate reality is made in the highest state of Samadhi by consciousness when mind and brain no longer exist. Therefore. In that state though consciousness can have experience of cosmic consciousness but no interpretation, analysis, recording of that experience due to absence of the mind. Afterwards, when consciousness returns to mind and brain , interpretation of that experience is made by mind depending upon Sanskaaras present in the made. Therefore, experience if the ultimate reality and its interpretation has nothing to do with neural basis.
Regards
Vinod Sehgal
It is not that only neurons creates the experiences. Experiences in the normal awakened state are created from by the joint aggregate of neurons in the physical brain and astral mind as transcendental to physical brain. In the state of Samaadhi, experiences can arise with only astral mind also.
It is not that all the states of Samaadhi are bliss dominant.
Experience of the ultimate reality is made in the highest state of Samadhi by consciousness when mind and brain no longer exist. Therefore. In that state though consciousness can have experience of cosmic consciousness but no interpretation, analysis, recording of that experience due to absence of the mind. Afterwards, when consciousness returns to mind and brain , interpretation of that experience is made by mind depending upon Sanskaaras present in the made. Therefore, experience if the ultimate reality and its interpretation has nothing to do with neural basis.
Regards
Vinod Sehgal
Sent: 29-04-2017 21:25
To: Anirudh Satsangi
Cc: Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com; VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL; Asingh2384
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Re: Consciousness and matter
To: Anirudh Satsangi
Cc: Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com; VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL; Asingh2384
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Re: Consciousness and matter
Anirudh Satsangi
Apr 30, 2017, 11:57:06 AM4/30/17
to Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal, Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com, VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL, Asingh2384
Thanks Dr. Ram for your excellent response. I agree with you. The experiences may be more or less common or even identical but based on our mind-brain infrastructure and our neural system we may explain it differently.
Your responses are always very enlightening. Kindly permit me to put one more question. You have referred to E=mc^2. Matter is converted into energy according to this formula. Kindly let us know the type of energy is liberated i.e. strong nuclear force or weak nuclear force or electromagnetic force or gravitation force?
Regards and best wishes
Anirudh Kumar Satsangi
Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal
Apr 30, 2017, 3:04:24 PM4/30/17
to Vinod Sehgal, Online Sadhu Sanga, Anirudh Satsangi, Asingh2384
Dear Vinod ji,
Thanks.
Unfortunately, we do not have scientific evidence of astral, causal, and manifested consciousness worlds. These are terms used in Sāṅkhya, which has 8 serious problems. We have scientific evidence of only physical world. The rest we have already discussed. Please see Section 3.15 of (Vimal, 2016b). Whatever is experienced in Samadhi state by yogis is of no help to use Sāṅkhya’s term astral mind because it is their personal experiences, not mine or yours. In addition, Vedāntists and Buddhists contradict and these experiences depend on yogi to yogi and their background learning on metaphysics. Therefore, it is simply not useful. This we have discussed many times. As I suggested before, if you want to defend Sāṅkhya you need to address its 8 problems. The problems and previous efforts in their resolution are elaborated in Chapter 2 (Section 2.4 for Sāṅkhya) of (Vimal, 2012c).
The reality is of two types: MDR (mind-dependent
reality) and MIR (mind-independent reality) in our physical world, not in any
fictitious astral or other worlds which none of us has experienced and has no
scientific evidence. We cannot depend on others’ experiences.
Kind regards,
Rām
----------------------------------------------------------
Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.
Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)
Vision Research Institute, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.
25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USA
Ph: +1 978 954 7522; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907
Researched at University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools
On Sunday, 30 April 2017 3:58 AM, Vinod Sehgal <vinodse...@gmail.com> wrote:
Dear Dr Ram,
What I meant to state and convey that experiences in our awakened state are due to the functioning of the joint aggregate of the NNs in the physical brain and astral mind. There is no empirical evidence from any objective experimentation or subjective evidence from the state of Samaadhi supporting the notion that any mental aspect is latent with the physical aspect of the brain which becomes manifested on the manifestation of the physical aspect of the brain in form of build up of NNs. This whole notion is an intelligent speculation. Of course, there is no objective evidence for the existence of the astral body and astral mind also but it is supported by quite robust subjective evidence of experiences in the state of Samaadhi by scores of people spread over a long periods. These experiences are reproducible in nature spread over a large no of people. Any assertion that such experiences are some extension of the NNs of the mind- brain system is another theoretical speculation though quite intelligent one since it is is not borne by the subjective evidence of the experiences in the state of Samaadhi. In the state of Nirvikalapa Samaadhi, both physical brain and astral mind are left behind and a Yogi can have a vivid and reproducible experience of this in NS. In Savikalapa Samaadhi only brain is left behind with astral mind staying with consciousness. Experience to this effect is also made in vivid and reproducible manner. It is s cardinal principle in the matter of research that evidence should override assertions of the theoretical speculative nature, however intelligent and sound they may appear.
First you should define and specify clearly what is real and what is illusions?
Then only you should state that dreams are illusion's. What is the criteria for any phenomenon to be real? Any assertion that the physical world is real due to it being "appearing" real is not a sound argument since from that perspective dreams are also equally real since in the dream conscious state, dreams also appear as much real as our physical world appear real in the awakened state. Next time when you go to dream conscious state, try your best your argument of the awakened state that dreams are illusion. See yourself if in the dream state your present arguments that dreams are illusions work in the dream state or not due to which dreams may appear illusions. If dreams really appear illusions in the dream state please intimate me honestly. Otherwise, please explain why dreams don't, appear illusion in dreams?
There are some things in life for which have no other way but to take as granted the versions of others, of course after due contemplation and with fair degree if trust. In such things, we can't insist upon that we shall agree to the version of others only after our experience. In that way we can never launch ourselves on the path of our personal experience with all the seriousness. For example, in the past 50 years not more than a dozen of people have landed on the moon. Now there is not much of the likelihood that in our life we shall ever be able to land on moon. So to state that we can't take the versions of a few one who have landed on moon as granted one unless we ourselves land on moon will be an illogical and irrational assertion.. Similarly, the assertion that we will not trust the versions of a few others that there is the ontological reality of the austral world and body as distinct from the physical world/brain/body, unless we experience ourselves is also equally illogical and irrational as the case of the landing on moon.
So to sum up, first please clarify your concepts of realness and illusions. Secondly. It is also not a logical and rational approach that one will agree to the version of some authority only when he will have his own experience.. My this statement should not be misconstrued in any manner that I am advocating trusting the versions of others blindly. On the contrary, I support that before trusting the versions, one should follow such versions completely upto the end with all the seriousness and sincerely and also put the versions to all the logical deliberations with equal space for rationality and openness.. But problem has been that we conclude and finalise a view about the version of other's experiences in haste without complete follow up with all the seriousness and without making efforts to find corroborating evidence. This makes us to land at incorrect conclusions which we continue to perpetuate for years.
As far as your so called 8 serious problems of Sankhya are concerned, majority of the same appear to arise due to your misconstruction and inability to distinguish between the nature of the consciousness and mind. This misconception of indistinguishsbility between consciousness and mind persist in metaphysics of Western Materialism and you might have borrowed the same from there.
Nevertheless, if you make further elaborations on the 8 problems of Saankhya one by one, I shall try to address the same to the best of my ability and understanding.
Regards and best wishes.
Vinod Sehgal
.
What I meant to state and convey that experiences in our awakened state are due to the functioning of the joint aggregate of the NNs in the physical brain and astral mind. There is no empirical evidence from any objective experimentation or subjective evidence from the state of Samaadhi supporting the notion that any mental aspect is latent with the physical aspect of the brain which becomes manifested on the manifestation of the physical aspect of the brain in form of build up of NNs. This whole notion is an intelligent speculation. Of course, there is no objective evidence for the existence of the astral body and astral mind also but it is supported by quite robust subjective evidence of experiences in the state of Samaadhi by scores of people spread over a long periods. These experiences are reproducible in nature spread over a large no of people. Any assertion that such experiences are some extension of the NNs of the mind- brain system is another theoretical speculation though quite intelligent one since it is is not borne by the subjective evidence of the experiences in the state of Samaadhi. In the state of Nirvikalapa Samaadhi, both physical brain and astral mind are left behind and a Yogi can have a vivid and reproducible experience of this in NS. In Savikalapa Samaadhi only brain is left behind with astral mind staying with consciousness. Experience to this effect is also made in vivid and reproducible manner. It is s cardinal principle in the matter of research that evidence should override assertions of the theoretical speculative nature, however intelligent and sound they may appear.
First you should define and specify clearly what is real and what is illusions?
Then only you should state that dreams are illusion's. What is the criteria for any phenomenon to be real? Any assertion that the physical world is real due to it being "appearing" real is not a sound argument since from that perspective dreams are also equally real since in the dream conscious state, dreams also appear as much real as our physical world appear real in the awakened state. Next time when you go to dream conscious state, try your best your argument of the awakened state that dreams are illusion. See yourself if in the dream state your present arguments that dreams are illusions work in the dream state or not due to which dreams may appear illusions. If dreams really appear illusions in the dream state please intimate me honestly. Otherwise, please explain why dreams don't, appear illusion in dreams?
There are some things in life for which have no other way but to take as granted the versions of others, of course after due contemplation and with fair degree if trust. In such things, we can't insist upon that we shall agree to the version of others only after our experience. In that way we can never launch ourselves on the path of our personal experience with all the seriousness. For example, in the past 50 years not more than a dozen of people have landed on the moon. Now there is not much of the likelihood that in our life we shall ever be able to land on moon. So to state that we can't take the versions of a few one who have landed on moon as granted one unless we ourselves land on moon will be an illogical and irrational assertion.. Similarly, the assertion that we will not trust the versions of a few others that there is the ontological reality of the austral world and body as distinct from the physical world/brain/body, unless we experience ourselves is also equally illogical and irrational as the case of the landing on moon.
So to sum up, first please clarify your concepts of realness and illusions. Secondly. It is also not a logical and rational approach that one will agree to the version of some authority only when he will have his own experience.. My this statement should not be misconstrued in any manner that I am advocating trusting the versions of others blindly. On the contrary, I support that before trusting the versions, one should follow such versions completely upto the end with all the seriousness and sincerely and also put the versions to all the logical deliberations with equal space for rationality and openness.. But problem has been that we conclude and finalise a view about the version of other's experiences in haste without complete follow up with all the seriousness and without making efforts to find corroborating evidence. This makes us to land at incorrect conclusions which we continue to perpetuate for years.
As far as your so called 8 serious problems of Sankhya are concerned, majority of the same appear to arise due to your misconstruction and inability to distinguish between the nature of the consciousness and mind. This misconception of indistinguishsbility between consciousness and mind persist in metaphysics of Western Materialism and you might have borrowed the same from there.
Nevertheless, if you make further elaborations on the 8 problems of Saankhya one by one, I shall try to address the same to the best of my ability and understanding.
Regards and best wishes.
Vinod Sehgal
.
Anirudh Satsangi
Apr 30, 2017, 3:04:24 PM4/30/17
to Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal, sukhd...@iitdalumni.com, Vibha Rani Satsangi, joachim...@diwiss.de, VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL, Asingh2384, Online Sadhu Sanga
Dear Dr. Ram
Thanks for the response. But this does not satisfy to my query. Matter and Energy are two ultimate extremes in the Nature. As per the formula E=mc^2, Matter and Energy are inter-convertible. If Matter is not converted back into the Four Fundamental Forces of Nature then the claim of this formula developed by Albert Einstein does not seem valid.
Regards and best wishes
Anirudh Kumar Satsangi
6, Dayalkunj, Dayalbagh, Agra . .
On Sun, Apr 30, 2017 at 9:45 PM, Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal <rlpv...@yahoo.co.in> wrote:
Dear Anirudh ji,As per Sidney Perkowitzrit (as of 30 April 2017), “E = mc2, equation in German-born physicist Albert Einstein’s theory of special relativity that expresses the fact that mass and energy are the same physical entity and can be changed into each other. In the equation, the increased relativistic mass (m[= m0/√1-(v/c)2]) of a body times the speed of light squared (c2) is equal to the kinetic energy (E) of that body.In physical theories prior to that of special relativity, mass and energy were viewed as distinct entities. Furthermore, the energy of a body at rest could be assigned an arbitrary value. In special relativity, however, the energy of a body at rest is determined to be mc2. Thus, each body of rest mass m possesses mc2 of “rest energy,” which potentially is available for conversion to other forms of energy. The mass-energy relation, moreover, implies that, if energy is released from the body as a result of such a conversion, then the rest mass of the body will decrease. Such a conversion of rest energy to other forms of energy occurs in ordinary chemical reactions, but much larger conversions occur in nuclear reactions. This is particularly true in the case of nuclear fusion reactions that transform hydrogen to helium, in which 0.7 percent of the original rest energy of the hydrogen is converted to other forms of energy. Stars like the Sun shine from the energy released from the rest energy of hydrogen atoms that are fused to form helium.”As per Reference.com, “A simple explanation of Einstein’s equation, E = mc2, is that small amounts of mass are equivalent to huge amounts of energy. Einstein’s equation was revolutionary because it showed that matter and energy were different sides of the same thing.In Einstein's most famous equation, "E" stands for energy, "m" stands for mass and "c" stands for the speed of light.Mass is one of the basic properties of all physical objects. It quantifies how much matter is present in an object. It is also a measure of an object's inertia: how difficult it is to move an object from rest or change its course while moving.His equation technically deals with mass in the sense of inertia. It states that the total amount of energy in a stationary system or object is equivalent to its mass, multiplied by the square of the speed of light. "C," the speed of light, is 186,000 miles per second.Because the square of the speed of light is such a large figure, Einstein's equation states that small amounts of mass are equivalent to huge amounts of energy. This equation was a powerful aid in the development of nuclear weapons.”Thus, it seems that E is a kinetic energy and is related to mostly nuclear force.
Kind regards,Rām----------------------------------------------------------Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)Vision Research Institute, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USAPh: +1 978 954 7522; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907Researched at University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools
Thanks Dr. Ram for your excellent response. I agree with you. The experiences may be more or less common or even identical but based on our mind-brain infrastructure and our neural system we may explain it differently.Your responses are always very enlightening. Kindly permit me to put one more question. You have referred to E=mc^2. Matter is converted into energy according to this formula. Kindly let us know the type of energy is liberated i.e. strong nuclear force or weak nuclear force or electromagnetic force or gravitation force?Regards and best wishesAnirudh Kumar Satsangi
On Sat, Apr 29, 2017 at 9:25 PM, Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal <rlpv...@yahoo.co.in> wrote:
Dear Anirudh ji,Thanks.I agree with you. Since experiences are personal and depend on the infrastructure of a mind-brain system, on the context/environment, and other factors, they can be different. Trichromats will experience a ripe tomato reddish, but achromats it will be grayish. Theist Vedāntists report different experiences compared to atheist Buddhists for Samādhi state experiences. However, some of the experiences (such as bliss/ānanda at Samādhi state) are more or less common to most of the subjects because their neural bases are also more or less common.
Kind regards,Rām
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/Online_Sadhu_Sanga/CAN93pGTGHOPLjWMSs7QVuo%3DF7MB_zR5%2BYCqRauLGoDvB6X2ybA%40mail.gmail.com.
Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal
Apr 30, 2017, 3:04:24 PM4/30/17
to Anirudh Satsangi, VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL, Asingh2384, Online Sadhu Sanga
Dear Anirudh ji,
As per Sidney Perkowitzrit (as of 30 April 2017), “E = mc2, equation in German-born physicist Albert Einstein’s theory of special relativity that expresses the fact that mass and energy are the same physical entity and can be changed into each other. In the equation, the increased relativistic mass (m[= m0/√1-(v/c)2]) of a body times the speed of light squared (c2) is equal to the kinetic energy (E) of that body.
In physical theories prior to that of special relativity, mass and energy were viewed as distinct entities. Furthermore, the energy of a body at rest could be assigned an arbitrary value. In special relativity, however, the energy of a body at rest is determined to be mc2. Thus, each body of rest mass m possesses mc2 of “rest energy,” which potentially is available for conversion to other forms of energy. The mass-energy relation, moreover, implies that, if energy is released from the body as a result of such a conversion, then the rest mass of the body will decrease. Such a conversion of rest energy to other forms of energy occurs in ordinary chemical reactions, but much larger conversions occur in nuclear reactions. This is particularly true in the case of nuclear fusion reactions that transform hydrogen to helium, in which 0.7 percent of the original rest energy of the hydrogen is converted to other forms of energy. Stars like the Sun shine from the energy released from the rest energy of hydrogen atoms that are fused to form helium.”
As per Reference.com, “A simple explanation of Einstein’s equation, E = mc2, is that small amounts of mass are equivalent to huge amounts of energy. Einstein’s equation was revolutionary because it showed that matter and energy were different sides of the same thing.
In Einstein's most famous equation, "E" stands for energy, "m" stands for mass and "c" stands for the speed of light.
Mass is one of the basic properties of all physical objects. It quantifies how much matter is present in an object. It is also a measure of an object's inertia: how difficult it is to move an object from rest or change its course while moving.
His equation technically deals with mass in the sense of inertia. It states that the total amount of energy in a stationary system or object is equivalent to its mass, multiplied by the square of the speed of light. "C," the speed of light, is 186,000 miles per second.
Because the square of the speed of light is such a large figure, Einstein's equation states that small amounts of mass are equivalent to huge amounts of energy. This equation was a powerful aid in the development of nuclear weapons.”
Thus, it seems that E is a kinetic energy and is related to mostly nuclear force.
Kind regards,
Rām
----------------------------------------------------------
Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.
Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)
Vision Research Institute, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.
25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USA
Ph: +1 978 954 7522; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907
Researched at University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools
Thanks Dr. Ram for your excellent response. I agree with you. The experiences may be more or less common or even identical but based on our mind-brain infrastructure and our neural system we may explain it differently.
Your responses are always very enlightening. Kindly permit me to put one more question. You have referred to E=mc^2. Matter is converted into energy according to this formula. Kindly let us know the type of energy is liberated i.e. strong nuclear force or weak nuclear force or electromagnetic force or gravitation force?
Regards and best wishes
Anirudh Kumar Satsangi
On Sat, Apr 29, 2017 at 9:25 PM, Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal <rlpv...@yahoo.co.in> wrote:
Dear Anirudh ji,Thanks.I agree with you. Since experiences are personal and depend on the infrastructure of a mind-brain system, on the context/environment, and other factors, they can be different. Trichromats will experience a ripe tomato reddish, but achromats it will be grayish. Theist Vedāntists report different experiences compared to atheist Buddhists for Samādhi state experiences. However, some of the experiences (such as bliss/ānanda at Samādhi state) are more or less common to most of the subjects because their neural bases are also more or less common.
Kind regards,Rām
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Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal
Apr 30, 2017, 3:04:24 PM4/30/17
to Anirudh Satsangi, sukhd...@iitdalumni.com, Vibha Rani Satsangi, joachim...@diwiss.de, VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL, Asingh2384, Online Sadhu Sanga
Dear Anirudh ji,
I thought that I answered: "This equation was a powerful aid in the development of nuclear weapons". This seems to imply the mass can be converted to nuclear energy as in bombs.
Kind regards,
Rām
----------------------------------------------------------
Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.
Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)
Vision Research Institute, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.
25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USA
Ph: +1 978 954 7522; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907
Researched at University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools
Dear Dr. Ram
Thanks for the response. But this does not satisfy to my query. Matter and Energy are two ultimate extremes in the Nature. As per the formula E=mc^2, Matter and Energy are inter-convertible. If Matter is not converted back into the Four Fundamental Forces of Nature then the claim of this formula developed by Albert Einstein does not seem valid.
Regards and best wishes
Anirudh Kumar Satsangi
6, Dayalkunj, Dayalbagh, Agra . .
On Sun, Apr 30, 2017 at 9:45 PM, Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal <rlpv...@yahoo.co.in> wrote:
Dear Anirudh ji,As per Sidney Perkowitzrit (as of 30 April 2017), “E = mc2, equation in German-born physicist Albert Einstein’s theory of special relativity that expresses the fact that mass and energy are the same physical entity and can be changed into each other. In the equation, the increased relativistic mass (m[= m0/√1-(v/c)2]) of a body times the speed of light squared (c2) is equal to the kinetic energy (E) of that body.In physical theories prior to that of special relativity, mass and energy were viewed as distinct entities. Furthermore, the energy of a body at rest could be assigned an arbitrary value. In special relativity, however, the energy of a body at rest is determined to be mc2. Thus, each body of rest mass m possesses mc2 of “rest energy,” which potentially is available for conversion to other forms of energy. The mass-energy relation, moreover, implies that, if energy is released from the body as a result of such a conversion, then the rest mass of the body will decrease. Such a conversion of rest energy to other forms of energy occurs in ordinary chemical reactions, but much larger conversions occur in nuclear reactions. This is particularly true in the case of nuclear fusion reactions that transform hydrogen to helium, in which 0.7 percent of the original rest energy of the hydrogen is converted to other forms of energy. Stars like the Sun shine from the energy released from the rest energy of hydrogen atoms that are fused to form helium.”As per Reference.com, “A simple explanation of Einstein’s equation, E = mc2, is that small amounts of mass are equivalent to huge amounts of energy. Einstein’s equation was revolutionary because it showed that matter and energy were different sides of the same thing.In Einstein's most famous equation, "E" stands for energy, "m" stands for mass and "c" stands for the speed of light.Mass is one of the basic properties of all physical objects. It quantifies how much matter is present in an object. It is also a measure of an object's inertia: how difficult it is to move an object from rest or change its course while moving.His equation technically deals with mass in the sense of inertia. It states that the total amount of energy in a stationary system or object is equivalent to its mass, multiplied by the square of the speed of light. "C," the speed of light, is 186,000 miles per second.Because the square of the speed of light is such a large figure, Einstein's equation states that small amounts of mass are equivalent to huge amounts of energy. This equation was a powerful aid in the development of nuclear weapons.”Thus, it seems that E is a kinetic energy and is related to mostly nuclear force.
Kind regards,Rām
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Bikash Rana
Apr 30, 2017, 3:12:09 PM4/30/17
to Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com
Dear All,
I admire your consideration for including me in this nice group. However, I request you to talk in person whatever queries you have, please do not reply all people or include all people in your talk.
Have a peaceful life.
Thanks
Bikash
...
BMP
Apr 30, 2017, 3:12:09 PM4/30/17
to Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com
The equivalence equation of energy and mass does not necessarily imply that energy can be converted into mass and vv. Pls see E=MC Squared Fallacies and the Non-conversion of Mass to Energy
From: "'Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal' via Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D." <Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 30, 2017 3:03 PM
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Re: Consciousness and matter
Fred Wood
Apr 30, 2017, 8:11:48 PM4/30/17
to online_sa...@googlegroups.com
Dear Inspired Ones, I guess I would second the motion of Bikash. This is all great and insightful discussion, but I am wondering if everyone on the list needs to be copied on every comment in every thread? I think there are other ways to organize this to reduce the email volume for those who may feel a little inundated. Just a thought. Many blessings, FBW.
From: online_sa...@googlegroups.com <online_sa...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Bikash Rana <bikas...@gmail.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 30, 2017 12:08 PM
To: Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sunday, April 30, 2017 12:08 PM
To: Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Re: Consciousness and matter
Dear All,
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http://scsiscs.org/conference/scienceandscientist/2017
BHAKTI VEDANTA INSTITUTE Report Archives
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Sponsorship and Donations for Vedanta and Science Dialogue: http://scienceandscientist.org/donate
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Life and consciousness – The Vedāntic view: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138
Harmonizer: http://scienceandscientist.org/harmonizer
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Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal
Apr 30, 2017, 8:11:52 PM4/30/17
to Vinod Sehgal, Online Sadhu Sanga, Anirudh Satsangi, Asingh2384
Continue from my previous email:
Dear Vinod ji,
An inert (non-living) system usually has one or more function. A function is a functional sub-aspect of consciousness as elaborated in (Vimal, 2009f). Therefore, it can be included as a part of the mental aspect. The experiential sub-aspect of an inert system is latent in the sense of the superposition of basis states; the relevant ontic states (that are included in Hilbert system) are the basis states. Further details are given in the Section 3.15 of (Vimal, 2016b).
Kind regards,
Rām
----------------------------------------------------------
Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.
Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)
Vision Research Institute, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.
25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USA
Ph: +1 978 954 7522; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907
Researched at University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools
Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal
May 1, 2017, 7:03:25 PM5/1/17
to VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL, Anirudh Satsangi, Asingh2384, Online Sadhu Sanga
Dear Vinod ji,
Thanks for your comments.
Sehgal: If you will re-read my previous mail carefully once again, you will find that I have clearly mentioned that there is no objective scientific evidence for the existence of the astral, causal bodies and manifested consciousness. What actually, I had indicated was that for the existence of the astral, causal bodies and the manifested consciousness:
i) There is no objective scientific evidence.
ii) But there are a lot of subjective pieces of evidence with corroborating effects spanned over a number of territories, periods and groups following diverse traditions. There is also subjective evidence that existence of the astral bodies, causal bodies, and manifested consciousness are not extensions of the physiological phenomena as arising out from the physicality of the body/brain. Such pieces of evidence can't be overlooked and there is the need to follow the same up to the complete ends with all the sincerity and seriousness.
Vimal: I agree with experiences at various states of Samādhi as subjective data. However, I do not agree with the problematic dualistic Sāṅkhya’s interpretations in terms of astral bodies, causal bodies, and manifested consciousness out of a mind-brain system. This is because they must all have their respective neural basis, which is consistent with the least problematic monistic Dvi-Pakṣa Advaita as discussed many times before. We are unnecessarily repeating our discussion. Let us agree with our disagreement. If you still want to defend dualistic Sāṅkhya, then you first address its 8 problems in addition to the Parsimony problem (the Occam Razor parsimony of the dualistic Sāṅkhya and Interactive Substance Dualism is 50% of the monistic frameworks such as Dvi-Pakṣa Advaita).
Sehgal: However, in the eDAM,
i) There is no objective scientific evidence for the existence of any mental aspect as an inseparable aspect with the physicality of the inert matter. The so-called critical experiment is evidence of co-manifestability and co-evolution and NOT of the CO-EXISTENCE. We have discussed it a number of times earlier also, Co-menifestability and co-evolution should not be misconstrued as Co-existence. This is the very core error in the whole design of eDAM. For this core axiom of eDAM, first establish the existence any unmanifested mental aspect in the inert matter away from the brain. At the experimental set up of the brain, likelihood of the mental aspects arising out from the matter (materialism), independent Mind, Buddhi, Prakriti (SAnkhya), fundamental consciousness (Idealism) are present in equal probability as in the eDAM. To establish eDAM based upon the methodology of elimination is not correct since if there are some logical problems in SAnkhya, there are even more and bigger problems in the eDAM. I have elaborated on these problems many times.
ii) Apart from the absence of any objective scientific evidence for the core assumption of eDAM that physical and mental aspects co-exist in all the entities of the universe right from the stage of the creation and onwards, there is also no subjective evidence for this core assumption as flowing from experiences as flowing from the state of Samaadhis.
Vimal: Can we separate a structure (physical aspect) from its function (a part of mental aspect)? The answer is definitely NO as discussed many times before. Therefore, the physical aspect (structure) and the mental aspect (such as a function) of a state of an inert system are inseparable. So-called the ‘core error’ (separability of aspects) of the eDAM is an artifact of your misunderstanding of this fact. Thus, the doctrine of inseparability cannot be rejected.
Sehgal: This is your misconception that Kapila Muni in SAnkhya had coined these terms just to explain some fictitious ontology. He did not coin these terms just to explain vacuum or some extensions of some physical/physiological phenomena of the body/brain, as you have been contending for many times. These are the ontological realities as real as the realness of our physical world and Sage Kapila used his own terminology to describe such ontological realities. There are indirect references to the ontological realities of such elements as indicated in SAnkhya by Kapila as Manas, Buddhi, Indriyas, Chitta and Ahmkaaras in Bhagwat Geeta and some Upanishads. Also, the number of spiritual practitioners in non-Vedic/SAnkhya traditions has also described the ontological realities of such elements in their own terminology and language. So, all these facts cannot be overlooked.
Vimal: The problematic dualistic Sāṅkhya is an interpretation of Samādhi state data, similar to materialism, idealism, and eDAM. That time, neuroscience knowledge (every experience has a neural basis) was NOT available. Therefore, the great Kapila muni (1000–600 BCE or even before Gīta: 3000 BCE) certainly tried his best, but he had the lack of this neuroscientific knowledge (which is just about 40-100 yrs old) and missed the fact the all subjective data are bound within a mind-brain system, which is natural. In spite of this, we must acknowledge that his achievement was certainly great because it is one of the bases of top-down religions. We must understand this serious error that occurred in ancient era because of the incomplete knowledge and hence we must move forward.
Sehgal: The assertion that only physical world is real due to it having scientific evidence is not correct on logical grounds. If the existence of the other states of the consciousness viz. dream conscious state, Savikalpa Samādhi (SS) state, Nirvikalpa Samādhi (NS) as operating in different realm of nature can't be established due to the inadequacy and under reach of the tools of current scientific technology, this does not imply non-existence of these realms of the nature.
That is why I asked you to first define i) what is real and what is unreal ii) Why dreams don't appear illusion when we are in the dream conscious state if you treat dreams as illusions? But somehow, you have not responded to above queries.
Vimal: If you read carefully, I have already defined two kinds of realities: MDR (mind-dependent reality) and MIR (mind-independent reality). Let me elaborate further. The MDR is māyā (illusion) consistent with the “Brahman Satyam, Jagat Mithyā”. In that sense, all experiences where a mind is involved as in SS state are not real and do have inherent existence as elaborated in (Vimal, 2009a). The term ‘mind’ includes all mental entities, such as manas, buddhi, ahamkāra, Chitta, self, functions, and experiences). Only the NS-state ‘knowledge’ (Buddhist Śunyatā) is ‘real’ and has inherent existence in the MIR sense, where presumably mind is completely silent (latent) to ‘know’ the MIR (such as matter-in-itself and consciousness-in-itself as two inseparable aspects). The NS-state ‘knowledge’ ineffable and cannot be described thru any kinds of reports written in books including Upanishads; it can only be directly witnessed (Ātma-Sākshātakār). This is consistent with Nāgārjuna’s dependent co-origination, which entails the doctrine of inseparability (Vimal, 2016b).
Sehgal: I have invited you many times to pose and also elaborate on problems of Saankhya with one problem at one time. I assure that I will try to address these problems to the extent of my ability and understanding. For any problem to be addressed, it is necessary that we may first understand it in the correct perspective and this requires repeated elaboration. But somehow you are hesitant to elaborate on the problems.
Vimal: Kindly read carefully my emails, such as in my previous email: “As I suggested before, if you want to defend Sāṅkhya you need to address its 8 problems. The problems and previous efforts in their resolution are elaborated in Chapter 2 (Section 2.4 for Sāṅkhya) of (Vimal, 2012c).” It is too much to re-write here in emails.
Sehgal: I have elaborated at length in my previous email, why we need to remain dependent upon descriptions of others for many phenomena in our life. But somehow you have maintained silence on this issue also.
Vimal: I strongly disagree because experiences are personal; I have to experience first by myself before I can comment on others’ experiences. Even in simple psychophysical experiments, we have to be subjects and experience ourselves first before we can trust others’ experiences and related reports.
Sehgal: True Reality is only MIR. The concept of MDR is a misnomer of reality in itself. That is why Sages/saints/Yogis have dwelt upon that all the reality of the dream state, awakened state, Savikalpa Samaadhi stage is phenomenal one and, therefore, unreal. The only true reality is that of the cosmic consciousness due to it being delinked from the mind and the brain. Whatever experiences are gained with the aid of the mind and senses - experiences of the dream state, experiences of the normal awakened state INCLUDING SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCES, experiences of the astral world in the Savikalpa Samadhi state are either equally real or equally unreal.
Vimal: I have addressed this query above. Strictly speaking, MDR is unreal and MIR is real. However, we can argue that MDR is real in the sense of MDR, but we have to experience ourselves first because it is private and personal knowledge.
Sehgal: If you opt to respond, please respond the above points, in the above sequential order, in order to not to lose sight of any point. Leave away the functional or experiential aspects of the mental aspects of an inert entity, there is no objective or subjective evidence to the effect that some mental aspect really does exist with the physical aspect in some inseparable mode, as elaborated at length in my previous mail. The whole notion of the existence of the mental aspects as inseparable with physical aspects of distinct inert physical entities is part of speculation though quite intelligent one.
Vimal: I have addressed this query above and also in many emails before. Further details are given in the Section 3.15 of (Vimal, 2016b). I am sorry, but I prefer not to repeat our discussion; it does not give any new information and it is just a waste of time.
Kind regards,
Rām
----------------------------------------------------------
Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.
Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)
Vision Research Institute, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.
25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USA
Ph: +1 978 954 7522; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907
Researched at University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools
On Monday, 1 May 2017 5:33 AM, VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL <vinodse...@gmail.com> wrote:
Respected Dr. Ram,
Leave away the functional or experiential aspects of the mental aspects of an inert entity, there is no objective or subjective evidence to the effect that some mental aspect really does exist with the physical aspect in some inseparable mode, as elaborated at length in my previous mail. The whole notion of the existence of the mental aspects as inseparable with physical aspects of distinct inert physical entities is part of speculation thoughquite intelligent one.
Regards
Vinod sehgal
On Mon, May 1, 2017 at 2:52 PM, VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL <vinodse...@gmail.com> wrote:
Vimal -- Unfortunately, we do not have scientific evidence of astral, causal, and manifested consciousness worlds. These are terms used in Sāṅkhya, which has 8 serious problems. We have scientific evidence of only physical world. The rest we have already discussed. Please see Section 3.15 of (Vimal, 2016b). Whatever is experienced in Samadhi state by yogis is of no help to use Sāṅkhya’s term astral mind because it is their personal experiences, not mine or yours. In addition, Vedāntists and Buddhists contradict and these experiences depend on yogi to yogi and their background learning on metaphysics. Therefore, it is simply not useful. This we have discussed many times. As I suggested before, if you want to defend Sāṅkhya you need to address its 8 problems. The problems and previous efforts in their resolution are elaborated in Chapter 2 (Section 2.4 for Sāṅkhya) of (Vimal, 2012c).
The reality is of two types: MDR (mind-dependent reality) and MIR (mind-independent reality) in our physical world, not in any fictitious astral or other worlds which none of us has experienced and has no scientific evidence. We cannot depend on others’ experiences.
Vinod - If you will re-read my previous mail carefully once again, you will find that I have clearly mentioned that there is no objective scientific evidence for the existence of the astral, causal bodies and manifested consciousness. What actually, I had indicated was thatFor the existence of the astral, causal bodies and the manifested consciousnessi) There is no objective scientific evidence.ii) But there are a lot of subjective pieces of evidence with corroborating effects spanned over a no of territories, periods and groups following diverse traditions. There are also subjective evidence that existence of the astral bodies, causal bodies, and manifested consciousness are not extensions of the physiological phenomena as arising out from the physicality of the body/brain. Such pieces of evidence can't be overlooked and there is the need to follow the same up to the complete ends with all the sincerity and seriousness.However, in the eDAMi) There is no objective scientific evidence for the existence of any mental aspect as an inseparable aspect with the physicality of the inert matter. The so-called critical experiment is an evidence of co-manifestability and co-evolution and NOT of the CO-EXISTENCE. We have discussed this a no of times earlier also, Co-menifestability and co-evolution should not be misconstrued as Co-existence. This is the very core error in the whole design of eDAM. For this core axiom of eDAM, first establish the existence any unmanifested mental aspect in the inert matter away from the brain. At the experimental set up of the brain, likelihood of the mental aspects arising out from the matter ( materialism), independent Mind, Buddhi, Prakriti ( Saankhya) , fundamental consciousness ( Idealism) are present in equal probability as in the eDAM.To establish eDAM based upon the methodology of elimination is not correct since if there are some logical problems in Saankhya, there are even more and bigger problems in eDAM. I have elaborated on these problems many times.ii) Apart from the absence of any objective scientific evidence for the core assumption of eDAM that physical and mental aspects co-exist in all the entities of the universe right from the stage of the creation and onwards, there is also no subjective evidence for this core assumption as flowing from experiences as flowing from the state of Samaadhis.______________________________ ______________________________ ________________________This is your misconception that Kapil Muni in Saankhya had coined these terms just to explain some fictitious ontology. He did not coin these terms just to explain vacuum or some extensions of some physical/physiological phenomena of the body/brain, as you have been contending for many times. These are the ontological realities as real as the realness of our physical world and Sage Kapila used his own terminology to describe such ontological realities. There are indirect references to the ontological realities of such elements as indicated in Sankhyaa by Kapil as Manas, Buddhi, Indriyaas, Chitta and Ahmkaaras in Bhagwta Geeta and some Upanishads. also. A no of spiritual practitioners in non-Vedic/Saankhya traditions has also described the ontological realities of such elements in their own terminology and language. So all these facts can't be overlooked.______________________________ ______________________________ __________________________The assetion that only physical world is real due to it having scientific evidence is not correct on logical grounds. If the existence of the other states of the consciousness viz dream conscious state, Savikalpa Sammadhi state, Nirvikalpa Samaadhi as operating in different realm of nature can't be established due to the inadequency and underreach of the tools of current scientific technology, this does not implies non-existence of these realm s of the nature.That is why I asked you to first define i) what is real and what is unreal ii) Why dreams don't appear illusion when we are in the dream conscious state if you treat dreams as illusions?But somehow, you have not responded to above queries.______________________________ ______________________________ _________________________I have invited you many times to pose and also elaborate on problems of Saankhya with one problem at one time. I assure that I will try to address these problems to the extent of my ability and understanding. For any problem to be addressed, it is necessary that we may Ist understand it in the correct perspective and this requires repeated elaboration.But somehow you are hesitant to elaborate on the problems.______________________________ ______________________________ ______________________I have elaborated at length in my previous email, why we need to remain dependent upon descriptions of others for many phenomena in our life. But somehow you have maintained silence on this issue also.______________________________ ______________________________ ___________________________True Reality is only MIR. The concept of MDR is a misnomer of reality in itself.That is why Sages/saints/Yogis have dwelt upon that all the reality of the dream state, awakened state, Savikalpa Samaadhi stage is phenomenal one and, therefore, unreal. Only true reality is that of the cosmic consciousness due to it being delinked from the mind and the brain. Whatever experiences are gained with the aid of the mind and senses - experiences of the dream state, experiences of the normal awakened state INCLUDING SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCES, experiences of the Astral world in the Savikalpa Sammadhi state are either equally real or equally unreal.______________________________ ______________________________ _____________If you opt to respond please respond in the above sequential order of the points in order to not to lose sight of any point.RegardsVinod Sehgal
Researched at University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools
Dear Ram and Satsangiji,
It is not that only neurons creates the experiences. Experiences in the normal awakened state are created from by the joint aggregate of neurons in the physical brain and astral mind as transcendental to physical brain. In the state of Samaadhi, experiences can arise with only astral mind also.
It is not that all the states of Samaadhi are bliss dominant.
Experience of the ultimate reality is made in the highest state of Samadhi by consciousness when mind and brain no longer exist. Therefore. In that state though consciousness can have experience of cosmic consciousness but no interpretation, analysis, recording of that experience due to absence of the mind. Afterwards, when consciousness returns to mind and brain , interpretation of that experience is made by mind depending upon Sanskaaras present in the made. Therefore, experience if the ultimate reality and its interpretation has nothing to do with neural basis.
Regards
Vinod Sehgal
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Re: Consciousness and matter
Anirudh Satsangi
May 2, 2017, 10:57:24 AM5/2/17
to Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal, sukhd...@iitdalumni.com, Vibha Rani Satsangi, joachim...@diwiss.de, VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL, Asingh2384, Online Sadhu Sanga
Dear Dr. Ram
Not very convincing, Sir. I think this formula is of very limited application. This does not satisfy the condition for conservation of mass and energy. When a star is converted into a black hole, does this formula satisfy the condition of conservation of mass and energy?
Warm regards
Anirudh Kumar Satsangi
Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal
May 2, 2017, 10:57:26 AM5/2/17
to Anirudh Satsangi, sukhd...@iitdalumni.com, Vibha Rani Satsangi, joachim...@diwiss.de, VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL, Asingh2384, Online Sadhu Sanga
Dear Anirudh,
Dr. Avatar Singh might know better than me.
Kind regards,
Rām
----------------------------------------------------------
Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.
Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)
Vision Research Institute, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.
25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USA
Ph: +1 978 954 7522; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907
Researched at University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools
Dear Dr. Ram
Not very convincing, Sir. I think this formula is of very limited application. This does not satisfy the condition for conservation of mass and energy. When a star is converted into a black hole, does this formula satisfy the condition of conservation of mass and energy?
Warm regards
Anirudh Kumar Satsangi
On Sun, Apr 30, 2017 at 10:25 PM, Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal <rlpv...@yahoo.co.in> wrote:
Dear Anirudh ji,I thought that I answered: "This equation was a powerful aid in the development of nuclear weapons". This seems to imply the mass can be converted to nuclear energy as in bombs.
Kind regards,Rām
Asingh2384
May 2, 2017, 3:13:02 PM5/2/17
to Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com
Dear All:
E=mC**2 governs every motion, activity, and change in the
universe - galaxies, stars, planets, humans, animals, plants, rocks etc.
It also governs the functioning of our body, brains, and
minds. Thoughts, feelings, and discussions in this forum are made possible by
this formula, which also represents universal consciousness since every moment
of time and space in the Cosmos is aware of it and governed by it. Matter,
mind, and consciousness including all material, astral, and spiritual concepts
are explained by it.
If there is only ONE thing this forum need to know to
understand universal reality and consciousness in its entirety, it is E=mC**2. Rest is all only
corollaries of it. My attached paper explains it all.
Best Regards
Avtar Singh, Sc.D.
Alumni, MIT
Author
of "The Hidden Factor - An Approach for Resolving Paradoxes of Science,
Cosmology, and Universal Reality"
-----Original Message-----
From: 'Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal' via Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D. <Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com>
To: Anirudh Satsangi <anirud...@gmail.com>
Cc: sukhdevroy <sukhd...@iitdalumni.com>; Vibha Rani Satsangi <Vibhas...@gmail.com>; joachim.keppler <joachim...@diwiss.de>; VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL <vinodse...@gmail.com>; Asingh2384 <asing...@aol.com>; Online Sadhu Sanga <online_sa...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Tue, May 2, 2017 7:57 am
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Re: Consciousness and matter
From: 'Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal' via Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D. <Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com>
To: Anirudh Satsangi <anirud...@gmail.com>
Cc: sukhdevroy <sukhd...@iitdalumni.com>; Vibha Rani Satsangi <Vibhas...@gmail.com>; joachim.keppler <joachim...@diwiss.de>; VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL <vinodse...@gmail.com>; Asingh2384 <asing...@aol.com>; Online Sadhu Sanga <online_sa...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Tue, May 2, 2017 7:57 am
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Re: Consciousness and matter
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Asingh2384
May 2, 2017, 3:13:02 PM5/2/17
to vinodse...@gmail.com, rlpv...@yahoo.co.in, anirud...@gmail.com, online_sa...@googlegroups.com
Dear All,
When two black holes
collide and merge which result in the disappearance of some of their masses,
why mass is converted into both the gravitational energy to manifest as gravity
waves and e.m. radiative energy in the
form of bright light explosion. This radiative e.m. energy is also known as
Hawing black hole evaporation.
Best Regards
Avtar Singh, Sc.D.
Alumni, MIT
Author of "The
Hidden Factor - An Approach for Resolving Paradoxes of Science, Cosmology, and
Universal Reality"
Sent: 5/2/17
Dear All:
E=mC**2 governs every
motion, activity, and change in the universe - galaxies, stars, planets,
humans, animals, plants, rocks etc.
It also governs the
functioning of our body, brains, and minds. Thoughts, feelings, and discussions
in this forum are made possible by this formula, which also represents
universal consciousness since every moment of time and space in the Cosmos is
aware of it and governed by it. Matter, mind, and consciousness including all
material, astral, and spiritual concepts are explained by it.
If there is only ONE
thing this forum need to know to understand universal reality and consciousness
in its entirety, it is E=mC**2. Rest is all only corollaries of it. My attached
paper explains it all.
Best Regards
Avtar Singh, Sc.D.
Alumni, MIT
Author of "The
Hidden Factor - An Approach for Resolving Paradoxes of Science, Cosmology, and
Universal Reality"
-----Original Message-----
From: VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL <vinodse...@gmail.com>
To: Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal <rlpv...@yahoo.co.in>; Asingh2384 <asing...@aol.com>; Anirudh Satsangi <anirud...@gmail.com>
Sent: Tue, May 2, 2017 7:39 am
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Re: Consciousness and matter
From: VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL <vinodse...@gmail.com>
To: Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal <rlpv...@yahoo.co.in>; Asingh2384 <asing...@aol.com>; Anirudh Satsangi <anirud...@gmail.com>
Sent: Tue, May 2, 2017 7:39 am
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Re: Consciousness and matter
Dear Dr. Avtar Singhji,
The issue raised by Sh Satsangiji has also struck my mind many times. When two black holes collide and merge which result in the disappearance of some of their masses, why mass is converted into gravitational energy to manifest as gravity waves and NOT as e.m energy?. This question struck my mind when I learned of the gravity waves in LIGO experiment. But I have no satisfactory answer to the issue: when and how mass will be converted to what type of energy -- e.m. or gravity or strong or weak. This question has been raised by Satsangiji. As a physicist, you can help to understand this issue.
Regards.
Vinod Sehgal
Shafiq Khan
May 3, 2017, 6:28:02 AM5/3/17
to Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com
Dear All,
The formula E=mc^2 has been proved baseless on the same premises on which Einstein had derived it in the published paper 'Experimental & Theoretical Evidences of Fallacy of Space-time Concept and Actual State of Existence of the Physical Universe'. Everybody could google search for this paper to read it.
In a nuclear reaction not a single particle is created or annihilated but only binding energy of the nuclei is released during a nuclear explosion.
Light/radiation is simply an electromagnetic wave motion due to vibrations of charge on the electric dipoles of aether which fill up space and there is no way this wave-motion could be converted into matter & vice versa.
With Best Regards
Mohammad Shafiq Khan
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Fifth International Conference
Science and Scientist - 2017
August 18—19, 2017
Nepal Pragya Pratisthan, Kathmandu, Nepal
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BHAKTI VEDANTA INSTITUTE Report Archives
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Reply to Gustavo Caetano-Anollés: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2016.1160191
Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03
Life and consciousness – The Vedāntic view: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138
Harmonizer: http://scienceandscientist.org/harmonizer
Bhakti Vedanta Institute of Spiritual Culture & Science
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wbshen
May 3, 2017, 9:52:18 AM5/3/17
to Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com
Dear Prof Khan,
Could you kindly please send me a copy of your article
"Experimental & theoretical evidences of fallacy of space-time concept and actual state of existence of the physical universe"
With Best Wishes
WenBin Shen
Shafiq Khan
May 3, 2017, 12:19:31 PM5/3/17
to Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com
Dear WenBin Shen,
You could download the paper at http://www.indjst.org/index.php/indjst/article/view/30369/26297 and the paper is also attached herewith.
With Best Regards
Mohammad Shafiq Khan
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/Online_Sadhu_Sanga/BE474F95-B303-4FC1-AE77-A2E08F80EE07%40sgg.whu.edu.cn.
Asingh2384
May 4, 2017, 6:00:02 AM5/4/17
to Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com
Dear All:
A new generation of super accurate clocks are proving
that Einstein’s idea that time is not absolute is correct. Hence, Big Bang
starting at an absolute time zero is incorrect. There is no absolute moment of
time zero.
“A study using the new generation of super
accurate strontium clocks supports physicists' theories about time dilatation
and Lorentz invariance.” Hence, E=mC**2 is also proven to be correct. See reference below.
https://futurism.com/the-most-accurate-clocks-in-the-world-just-confirmed-that-time-is-not-absolute/
Best Regards
Avtar Singh, Sc.D.
Alumni, MIT
Author of "The Hidden Factor - An Approach for Resolving Paradoxes
of Science, Cosmology, and Universal Reality"
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NYIKOS, PETER
May 4, 2017, 12:12:52 PM5/4/17
to Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com
Asingh--
Your "Hence" is a non sequitur. Time dilation has been supported many times in over half a century, and very few people have tried to draw the conclusion you are drawing.
Yes, Hawking has done it. But Hawking is a popularizer who no longer submits these kinds of conclusions to peer-reviewed scientific journals, and his popularizations like A Brief History of Time are subject to the joke that he cannot tell the difference between time and space.
Think of this: to a photon, there is no lapse of time "internally": it is moving at the speed of light (because it IS light!) and according to the theory of relativity, all times are the same instant to it. And yet, time goes on, embodied in the very concept of the speed of light, which is NOT instantaneous.
You might try to make a case for the enormous gravity close to the Big Bang slowing time to a near stop, but the same reasoning should apply to black holes, which do represent the kind of singularity at the hypothetical "absolute zero" of the big bang.
I'm not saying you can't do it; I only say that you have not done it.
Peter Nyikos
Professor, Dept. of Mathematics
University of South Carolina
http://people.math.sc.edu/nyikos/
Your "Hence" is a non sequitur. Time dilation has been supported many times in over half a century, and very few people have tried to draw the conclusion you are drawing.
Yes, Hawking has done it. But Hawking is a popularizer who no longer submits these kinds of conclusions to peer-reviewed scientific journals, and his popularizations like A Brief History of Time are subject to the joke that he cannot tell the difference between time and space.
Think of this: to a photon, there is no lapse of time "internally": it is moving at the speed of light (because it IS light!) and according to the theory of relativity, all times are the same instant to it. And yet, time goes on, embodied in the very concept of the speed of light, which is NOT instantaneous.
You might try to make a case for the enormous gravity close to the Big Bang slowing time to a near stop, but the same reasoning should apply to black holes, which do represent the kind of singularity at the hypothetical "absolute zero" of the big bang.
I'm not saying you can't do it; I only say that you have not done it.
Peter Nyikos
Professor, Dept. of Mathematics
University of South Carolina
http://people.math.sc.edu/nyikos/
From: 'Asingh2384' via Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D. [Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com]
Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2017 10:33 PM
To: Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [MaybeSpam]Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Consciousness and matter
Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2017 10:33 PM
To: Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [MaybeSpam]Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Consciousness and matter
To view this discussion on the web visit
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Asingh2384
May 4, 2017, 4:41:12 PM5/4/17
to Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com
Peter:
Are you saying that there is an absolute time Zero moment when Big bang happened? Relativity infers No.
Thanks
Avtar
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/Online_Sadhu_Sanga/956F056B71785C498214DC8208A55634780B0384%40CAE145EMBP04.ds.sc.edu.
Shafiq Khan
May 5, 2017, 5:03:35 AM5/5/17
to Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com
Dear All including Mr. Avtar Singh ,
Time per se cannot be objectively known ....Kant. But we can know that whether time is emergent or absolute. Though Big Bang Theory has been proved baseless in the published paper 'Experimental & Theoretical Evidences of Fallacy of Space-time Concept & Actual State of Existence of Physical Universe' but even under the Big Bang Theory time is emergent as at the time of Big Bang there was no time. By emergent we mean that time had a beginning. The link provided by Mr. Avtar Singh says time is not absolute means that time had a beginning.
Even the formula E=mc^2 has been proved baseless in the above-mentioned paper on the same premises on which Einstein had derived it. For the benefit of all members the paper is herewith attached.
With Best Regards
Mohammad Shafiq Khan
On Thu, May 4, 2017 at 9:49 PM, 'Asingh2384' via Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D. <Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
Peter:Are you saying that there is an absolute time Zero moment when Big bang happened? Relativity infers No.Thanks
Avtar
-----Original Message-----
From: NYIKOS, PETER <nyi...@math.sc.edu>
To: Online_Sadhu_Sanga <Online_Sadhu_Sanga@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Thu, May 4, 2017 9:12 am
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Consciousness and matter
Asingh--
Your "Hence" is a non sequitur. Time dilation has been supported many times in over half a century, and very few people have tried to draw the conclusion you are drawing.
Yes, Hawking has done it. But Hawking is a popularizer who no longer submits these kinds of conclusions to peer-reviewed scientific journals, and his popularizations like A Brief History of Time are subject to the joke that he cannot tell the difference between time and space.
Think of this: to a photon, there is no lapse of time "internally": it is moving at the speed of light (because it IS light!) and according to the theory of relativity, all times are the same instant to it. And yet, time goes on, embodied in the very concept of the speed of light, which is NOT instantaneous.
You might try to make a case for the enormous gravity close to the Big Bang slowing time to a near stop, but the same reasoning should apply to black holes, which do represent the kind of singularity at the hypothetical "absolute zero" of the big bang.
I'm not saying you can't do it; I only say that you have not done it.
Peter Nyikos
Professor, Dept. of Mathematics
University of South Carolina
http://people.math.sc.edu/nyikos/
From: 'Asingh2384' via Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D. [Online_Sadhu_Sanga@googlegroups.com]
Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2017 10:33 PM
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Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03
Life and consciousness – The Vedāntic view: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138
Harmonizer: http://scienceandscientist.org/harmonizer
Bhakti Vedanta Institute of Spiritual Culture & Science
Princeton, NJ, USA: http://bviscs.org
Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Institute: http://scsiscs.org
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Sadhu-Sanga Blog: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga
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Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03
Life and consciousness – The Vedāntic view: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138
Harmonizer: http://scienceandscientist.org/harmonizer
Bhakti Vedanta Institute of Spiritual Culture & Science
Princeton, NJ, USA: http://bviscs.org
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C. S. Morrison
May 5, 2017, 5:03:35 AM5/5/17
to Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com, NYIKOS, PETER
Dear Peter
If time doesn't lapse for a photon internally, how can it have a frequency? Its frequency is internal time.
Although you were probably being metaphorical in attributing a point of view to a photon, it is worth remembering that if it had a consciousness (as I believe) special relativity would say nothing about its experience of time. It only talks about a slowing down of something observable that a particle does, from the point of view of an observer at rest relative to the particle. But even that isn't a real slowing down but an illusion caused by the fact that information about what the particle is doing can only travel to the 'stationary' observer at the speed of light.
As I understand it, real time dilation (that of Strontium clocks, etc) is caused by general relativity - i.e. acceleration. If you accelerate off in a rocket and get close to light speed, looking back through your telescope at earth it will appear to you as though OUR time has slowed down. The earth will be turning much more slowly. The moon will have slowed in its orbit.
Although you will be younger than us when you get back. That isn't really because of your speed but because when you slowed down or did a u-turn to come back, and screeched to a fiery halt in our atmosphere, the action of the forces involved slowed down all your internal clocks (which went back to their normal state when you stopped accelerating).
The reduction in a photon's frequency due to gravity is presumably the same effect. So I would argue that a photon does experience time internally. What special relativity tells us is that we can never observe a photon's clock go through a tick. It is its EXTERNALLY perceived time that slows to zero relative to us - its time as perceived by us. And I should point out that from the photon's point of view it is OUR clocks that do not tick. It could be having a long restful meditation as it traverses the galaxy wondering how on earth intelligent species could ever achieve anything when they are constantly frozen in time.
Best wishes,
Colin
C. S. Morrison, author of The Blind Mindmaker: Explaining Consciousness without Magic or Misrepresentation)
https://www.amazon.com/Blind-Mindmaker-Explaining-Consciousness-Misrepresentation/dp/1541283953
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Blind-Mindmaker-Explaining-Consciousness-Misrepresentation/dp/1541283953
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priyedarshi jetli
May 5, 2017, 5:03:53 AM5/5/17
to Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com
Avtar,
I am not a physicist nor do I know much about the big bang. However, a physicist once explained to me that "the big bang did not happen (in the past) but is happening." I don't know what sense you can make of this. But I thought I understood it at that time.
Priyedarshi
On Thu, May 4, 2017 at 9:49 PM, 'Asingh2384' via Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D. <Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
Peter:Are you saying that there is an absolute time Zero moment when Big bang happened? Relativity infers No.Thanks
Avtar
-----Original Message-----
From: NYIKOS, PETER <nyi...@math.sc.edu>
To: Online_Sadhu_Sanga <Online_Sadhu_Sanga@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Thu, May 4, 2017 9:12 am
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Consciousness and matter
Asingh--
Your "Hence" is a non sequitur. Time dilation has been supported many times in over half a century, and very few people have tried to draw the conclusion you are drawing.
Yes, Hawking has done it. But Hawking is a popularizer who no longer submits these kinds of conclusions to peer-reviewed scientific journals, and his popularizations like A Brief History of Time are subject to the joke that he cannot tell the difference between time and space.
Think of this: to a photon, there is no lapse of time "internally": it is moving at the speed of light (because it IS light!) and according to the theory of relativity, all times are the same instant to it. And yet, time goes on, embodied in the very concept of the speed of light, which is NOT instantaneous.
You might try to make a case for the enormous gravity close to the Big Bang slowing time to a near stop, but the same reasoning should apply to black holes, which do represent the kind of singularity at the hypothetical "absolute zero" of the big bang.
I'm not saying you can't do it; I only say that you have not done it.
Peter Nyikos
Professor, Dept. of Mathematics
University of South Carolina
http://people.math.sc.edu/nyikos/
From: 'Asingh2384' via Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D. [Online_Sadhu_Sanga@googlegroups.com]
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priyedarshi jetli
May 5, 2017, 10:58:27 AM5/5/17
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Dear Shafiq,
It seems like an excellent paper. I am in no position to judge it and will have to wait for responses from other physicists on this. I had a simple question: Have you proven space to be finite and absolute by the refutation of Einstein or do you have a positive argument for it as well. In the history of geometry, going back to Omar Khayam and others there were attempts to prove the fifth postulate of Euclid. Saccheri supposedly proved it. HIs techinque was a disjuctive syllogism. He considered three alternative hypothesis. He proved the acute angle and obtuse angle hypotheses to be false. Thereby by disjunctive syllogism, the third possibility, the right angle hypothesis, must be true. Then a flaw was discovered in his proof. The flaw opened the gates for non-Euclidean geometries. But just by finding a flaw in the proof of the fifth postulate or by even proving that the fifth postulate is false, you do not have non-Euclidean geometry. So, it took over a century from Gaus to Riemann to develop alternative non-Euclidean geometries, which were also required for the theory of relativity.
Priyedarshi
On Fri, May 5, 2017 at 11:32 AM, Shafiq Khan <shaf...@gmail.com> wrote:
Dear All including Mr. Avtar Singh ,Time per se cannot be objectively known ....Kant. But we can know that whether time is emergent or absolute. Though Big Bang Theory has been proved baseless in the published paper 'Experimental & Theoretical Evidences of Fallacy of Space-time Concept & Actual State of Existence of Physical Universe' but even under the Big Bang Theory time is emergent as at the time of Big Bang there was no time. By emergent we mean that time had a beginning. The link provided by Mr. Avtar Singh says time is not absolute means that time had a beginning.Even the formula E=mc^2 has been proved baseless in the above-mentioned paper on the same premises on which Einstein had derived it. For the benefit of all members the paper is herewith attached.With Best RegardsMohammad Shafiq Khan
Avtar
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Asingh2384
May 5, 2017, 5:27:36 PM5/5/17
to Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com
Dear Mr. Khan:
With due respect, your interpretation that
-"time is not absolute means that time had a beginning." is
incorrect. The beginning (time zero) and any specific quantification of later
moments of time would be valid only if times were absolute. There is no
specific unique absolute moment of time/clock in the universe.
Time (big bang) is emergent is also as elusive
as the emergence of a pigeon in a magician's hat.
No absoluteness of time is needed to explain the
observed empirical universe.
Best Regards
Avtar Singh, Sc.D.
Alumni, MIT
Author of "The Hidden Factor - An Approach
for Resolving Paradoxes of Science, Cosmology, and Universal Reality"
-----Original Message-----
From: Shafiq Khan <shaf...@gmail.com>
To: Online_Sadhu_Sanga <Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Fri, May 5, 2017 2:04 am
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Consciousness and matter
From: Shafiq Khan <shaf...@gmail.com>
To: Online_Sadhu_Sanga <Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Fri, May 5, 2017 2:04 am
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Consciousness and matter
Dear All including Mr. Avtar Singh ,
Time per se cannot be objectively known ....Kant. But we can know that whether time is emergent or absolute. Though Big Bang Theory has been proved baseless in the published paper 'Experimental & Theoretical Evidences of Fallacy of Space-time Concept & Actual State of Existence of Physical Universe' but even under the Big Bang Theory time is emergent as at the time of Big Bang there was no time. By emergent we mean that time had a beginning. The link provided by Mr. Avtar Singh says time is not absolute means that time had a beginning.
Even the formula E=mc^2 has been proved baseless in the above-mentioned paper on the same premises on which Einstein had derived it. For the benefit of all members the paper is herewith attached.
With Best Regards
Mohammad Shafiq Khan
Avtar
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Shafiq Khan
May 6, 2017, 5:14:38 AM5/6/17
to Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com
Dear Priyedarshi & Avtar Singh,
I have proved that space is absolute & filled up with aether, the electric dipoles, the particles of finite size. Now it is an established fact in philosophy that if we go on adding finite quantities as many times as possible it could never be infinite and this leads to the conclusion that space has to be finite.
Mr. Avtar Singh for a detailed reply please read the link https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/adopted-paradigm-physics-incorrect-shafiq-khan?trk=prof-post. 'Time per se cannot be objectively known' this is the very valid conclusion of Kant but under Big Bang paradigm the whole universe was localized in a point with almost no space and in that point nothing existed except energy; hence it could be safely assumed that even time did not exist at the time of Big Bang. Time is the measure of change and when there is nothing subject to change then for that body time does not exist. Besides I have scientifically proved that time is relative depending upon the motion of the body with respect to the absolute reference frame of aether at rest.
With Best Regards
Mohammad Shafiq Khan
On Fri, May 5, 2017 at 10:33 PM, 'Asingh2384' via Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D. <Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
Dear Mr. Khan:With due respect, your interpretation that -"time is not absolute means that time had a beginning." is incorrect. The beginning (time zero) and any specific quantification of later moments of time would be valid only if times were absolute. There is no specific unique absolute moment of time/clock in the universe.Time (big bang) is emergent is also as elusive as the emergence of a pigeon in a magician's hat.No absoluteness of time is needed to explain the observed empirical universe.Best RegardsAvtar Singh, Sc.D.Alumni, MITAuthor of "The Hidden Factor - An Approach for Resolving Paradoxes of Science, Cosmology, and Universal Reality"
-----Original Message-----
From: Shafiq Khan <shaf...@gmail.com>
To: Online_Sadhu_Sanga <Online_Sadhu_Sanga@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Fri, May 5, 2017 2:04 am
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Consciousness and matter
Dear All including Mr. Avtar Singh ,Time per se cannot be objectively known ....Kant. But we can know that whether time is emergent or absolute. Though Big Bang Theory has been proved baseless in the published paper 'Experimental & Theoretical Evidences of Fallacy of Space-time Concept & Actual State of Existence of Physical Universe' but even under the Big Bang Theory time is emergent as at the time of Big Bang there was no time. By emergent we mean that time had a beginning. The link provided by Mr. Avtar Singh says time is not absolute means that time had a beginning.Even the formula E=mc^2 has been proved baseless in the above-mentioned paper on the same premises on which Einstein had derived it. For the benefit of all members the paper is herewith attached.
With Best RegardsMohammad Shafiq Khan
Avtar
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/Online_Sadhu_Sanga/CAHYwPz1CPJgC99vJADsQbTEv8Y43arQfVGvo%3DiuBkxhh39Kq9Q%40mail.gmail.com.
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Fifth International Conference
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Nepal Pragya Pratisthan, Kathmandu, Nepal
http://scsiscs.org/conference/scienceandscientist/2017
BHAKTI VEDANTA INSTITUTE Report Archives
http://bviscs.org/reports
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Reply to Gustavo Caetano-Anollés: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2016.1160191
Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03
Life and consciousness – The Vedāntic view: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138
Harmonizer: http://scienceandscientist.org/harmonizer
Bhakti Vedanta Institute of Spiritual Culture & Science
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Life and consciousness – The Vedāntic view: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138
Harmonizer: http://scienceandscientist.org/harmonizer
Bhakti Vedanta Institute of Spiritual Culture & Science
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Fifth International Conference
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August 18—19, 2017
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Fifth International Conference
Science and Scientist - 2017
August 18—19, 2017
Nepal Pragya Pratisthan, Kathmandu, Nepal
http://scsiscs.org/conference/scienceandscientist/2017
BHAKTI VEDANTA INSTITUTE Report Archives
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Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03
Life and consciousness – The Vedāntic view: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138
Harmonizer: http://scienceandscientist.org/harmonizer
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priyedarshi jetli
May 6, 2017, 9:10:51 AM5/6/17
to Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com
Shafiq,
I am not a physicist but what you say seems plausible to me. I thought that 'space is finite' is accepted by consensus today. Am I wrong about this? As for Kant, though he began as a teacher of physics and mathematics, I don't think we should consider him an expert in physics, even of his times. In the Critique he sees time and space as a priori intuitions of the mind imposed on the world. However, in his physics his notions of time and space are more akin to Newton than to Leibniz: absolute rather than relational. Ok,even my expertise of Kant as a philosopher is not so great so I will stop here as I may be saying something completely off the mark.
Priyedarshi
On Sat, May 6, 2017 at 1:00 PM, Shafiq Khan <shaf...@gmail.com> wrote:
Dear Priyedarshi & Avtar Singh,I have proved that space is absolute & filled up with aether, the electric dipoles, the particles of finite size. Now it is an established fact in philosophy that if we go on adding finite quantities as many times as possible it could never be infinite and this leads to the conclusion that space has to be finite.Mr. Avtar Singh for a detailed reply please read the link https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/adopted-paradigm-physics-incorrect-shafiq-khan?trk=prof-post. 'Time per se cannot be objectively known' this is the very valid conclusion of Kant but under Big Bang paradigm the whole universe was localized in a point with almost no space and in that point nothing existed except energy; hence it could be safely assumed that even time did not exist at the time of Big Bang. Time is the measure of change and when there is nothing subject to change then for that body time does not exist. Besides I have scientifically proved that time is relative depending upon the motion of the body with respect to the absolute reference frame of aether at rest.With Best RegardsMohammad Shafiq Khan
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/Online_Sadhu_Sanga/CAHYwPz1qVVbGqSk9hbsmUNNubZUdQmUAdSjRvNMwY2X4zs7-fA%40mail.gmail.com.
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----------------------------
Fifth International Conference
Science and Scientist - 2017
August 18—19, 2017
Nepal Pragya Pratisthan, Kathmandu, Nepal
http://scsiscs.org/conference/scienceandscientist/2017
BHAKTI VEDANTA INSTITUTE Report Archives
http://bviscs.org/reports
Sponsorship and Donations for Vedanta and Science Dialogue: http://scienceandscientist.org/donate
Reply to Gustavo Caetano-Anollés: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2016.1160191
Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03
Life and consciousness – The Vedāntic view: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138
Harmonizer: http://scienceandscientist.org/harmonizer
Bhakti Vedanta Institute of Spiritual Culture & Science
Princeton, NJ, USA: http://bviscs.org
Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Institute: http://scsiscs.org
Darwin Under Siege: http://scienceandscientist.org/Darwin
Sadhu-Sanga Blog: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga
Contact: http://scsiscs.org/contact
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Shafiq Khan
May 6, 2017, 11:15:05 AM5/6/17
to Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com
Dear Priyedarshi & Mr. Sehgal,
Kant had concluded that both space & time cannot be objectively known but he was wrong in so far as the space is concerned but was correct in so far as time is concerned. Infinity per se denies the existence of the creator which being against the human thought process. So you are absolutely correct in presuming that everything including space is finite.
You presume there has to be a background of nothingness to accommodate the electric dipoles of aether in space but that is not necessary. Nothingness does not exist in nature. Assuming aether particles as cubical then nothing is required to be between the aether particles in the space wherein there is no matter. Actually I had stated the state of affairs under Big Bang paradigm whereas I have scientifically shown that Big Bang Theory is baseless through papers published in peer-reviewed journals. I have also shown that time is relative whereas space is absolute & finite.
With Best Regards
Mohammad Shafiq Khan
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wbshen
May 6, 2017, 4:20:04 PM5/6/17
to Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com
Dear Prof. Khan,
Thank you very much.
With Best Wishes
WenBin Shen
Avtar
May 6, 2017, 7:54:34 PM5/6/17
to Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com
Space is eternal formless domain of consciousness in which temporal forms of matter and mind manifest. Only the form or length dilates with speed not space.
Big Bang beginning is an unknown singularity and did not start with existing energy.
Best Regards
Avtar
Sent from my iPhone
Sent from my iPhone
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Shafiq Khan
May 7, 2017, 6:14:04 AM5/7/17
to Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Shafiq Khan <shaf...@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, May 7, 2017 at 12:04 PM
Subject: Re: Consciousness and matter
From: Shafiq Khan <shaf...@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, May 7, 2017 at 12:04 PM
Subject: Re: Consciousness and matter
To: Gyula Szasz <gyulas...@gmail.com>
Dear Gyula Szasz,
The very postulate of constancy of velocity of light is because of existence of aether and time dilation and besides all forces of nature are electromagnetic interactions interacting through the medium of aether, the electric dipoles. Please do read this link https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/adopted-paradigm-physics-incorrect-shafiq-khan?trk=prof-post.
Sincerely
Mohammad Shafiq Khan
On Sun, May 7, 2017 at 11:55 AM, Shafiq Khan <shaf...@gmail.com> wrote:
Dear Gyula I. Szasz,In the paper mentioned in my previous e-mail the existence of aether is proven on the same premises on which it was rejected.SincerelyMohammad Shafiq KhanOn Sun, May 7, 2017 at 11:42 AM, Gyula Szasz <gyulas...@gmail.com> wrote:Dear Mohammad Shafiq Khan,
Really nothing is physically proven, even not the existence of aether.
Sincerely,
Gyula I. Szász
2017-05-07 8:01 GMT+02:00 Shafiq Khan <shaf...@gmail.com>:Dear Gyula I. Szasz,The very space-time concept including Big Bang Theory have been proved baseless in the paper 'Experimental & Theoretical Evidences of Fallacy of Space-time Concept and Actual State of Existence of the Physical Universe' which was published in a peer-reviewed scientific research journal. The paper is attached herewith. Besides there is a standing open challenge which you can see at http://www.gsjournal.net/Science-Journals/Communications/View/4018.The proof of existence of aether is provided here in this published paper 'Michelson-Morley Experiment: A Misconceived & Misinterpreted Experiment' which could be read at https://www.slideshare.net/mohammadshafiqkhan1/michelsonmorley-experiment or you could google search for this paper. It is available on about more than half a dozen sites.SincerelyMohammad Shafiq Khan
On Sun, May 7, 2017 at 10:42 AM, Gyula Szasz <gyulas...@gmail.com> wrote:
"Time per se cannot be objectively known' this is the very valid conclusion of Kant but under Big Bang paradigm the whole universe was localized in a point with almost no space and in that point nothing existed except energy; hence it could be safely assumed that even time did not exist at the time of Big Bang. Time is the measure of change and when there is nothing subject to change then for that body time does not exist. Besides I have scientifically proved that time is relative depending upon the motion of the body with respect to the absolute reference frame of aether at rest."
Time and space are connected because the interactions propagate with c.
Big Bang didn't exist because the universe is composed of four kinds of stable elementary particles www.atomsz.com . Aether does also not exist.
Sincerely,
Gyula I. Szász
Anirudh Satsangi
May 7, 2017, 6:14:04 AM5/7/17
to VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL, Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com, Asingh2384, Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal
Thanks Dr. Sehgal/Dr. Ram/Dr. ASingh
Conversion may be O.K. But what about conservation? E=mc^2 is about conservation of mass and energy. After Big Bang, Planck Epoch was dominated by Gravity. Electromagnetic force, weak and strong nuclear forces separated from Gravity later. Whether E=mc^2 explains that mass is converted back, without any loss (a condition for conservation) into Gravity?
Regards and best wishes
Anirudh Kumar Satsangi
On Tue, May 2, 2017 at 9:52 PM, VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL <vinodse...@gmail.com> wrote:
Dear Dr Avtar Singhji,That is right. but how and by which formula it is decided as to how much the lost mass is to convert into e.m energy and rest in the gravitational energy? Ant why this should happen on the collision and merger of the black holes only? As a general rule, lost mass should divide into all types of energies -- e,m, gravitation, by whatever process mass is lost. Does it happen in loss of mass in nuclear fission or fusion? If No why?Vinod Sehgal
Asingh2384
May 7, 2017, 12:13:29 PM5/7/17
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Yes, mass can convert to gravitational energy as shown in my paper.
Thanks
Avtar
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Srinivasa Rao Kankipati
May 8, 2017, 10:46:34 AM5/8/17
to Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com, VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL, Asingh2384, Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal
Einstein's conversion equation shows, not that matter or energy is conserved separately, but that a common entity ("mattergy") is conserved. Since this is all that exists, gravity must be some energy which is left out of matter particles after some amount is spent in making them hang together. In due course, science may find this approach right. For myself, I am not able to see gravity as a separate force. Curvature in space is probably able to bring out this energy from particles, but may not be the direct cause for gravity.
This message is eligible for Automatic Cleanup! (Thanks Dr. Sehgal/Dr. Ram/Dr. ASinghConversion may be O.K. But what about conservation? E=mc^2 is about conservation of mass and energy. After Big Bang, Planck Epoch was dominated by Gravity. Electromagnetic force, weak and strong nuclear forces separated from Gravity later. Whether E=mc^2 explains that mass is converted back, without any loss (a condition for conservation) into Gravity?
Regards and best wishesAnirudh Kumar Satsangi
On Tue, May 2, 2017 at 9:52 PM, VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL <vinodse...@gmail.com> wrote:
Dear Dr Avtar Singhji,That is right. but how and by which formula it is decided as to how much the lost mass is to convert into e.m energy and rest in the gravitational energy? Ant why this should happen on the collision and merger of the black holes only? As a general rule, lost mass should divide into all types of energies -- e,m, gravitation, by whatever process mass is lost. Does it happen in loss of mass in nuclear fission or fusion? If No why?
Vinod Sehgal
On Tue, May 2, 2017 at 9:25 PM, Asingh2384 <asing...@aol.com> wrote:
...
[Message clipped]
Asingh2384
May 8, 2017, 11:47:25 AM5/8/17
to Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com, vinodse...@gmail.com, rlpv...@yahoo.co.in
Dear
Srinivasa
Correct. My
paper attached to earlier email shows mathematical relationship how matter can
convert to gravitational as well as anti-gravitational (light) energy while
conserving the total mass-energy.
Best Regards
Avtar Singh, Sc.D.
Alumni, MIT
Author of "The
Hidden Factor - An Approach for Resolving Paradoxes of Science, Cosmology, and
Universal Reality"
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JACK SARFATTI
May 9, 2017, 9:10:30 AM5/9/17
to Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com, jsar...@aol.com, VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL, Asingh2384, Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal
On May 8, 2017, at 2:32 PM, Srinivasa Rao Kankipati <ksra...@gmail.com> wrote:Einstein's conversion equation shows, not that matter or energy is conserved separately, but that a common entity ("mattergy") is conserved. Since this is all that exists, gravity must be some energy which is left out of matter particles after some amount is spent in making them hang together. In due course, science may find this approach right. For myself, I am not able to see gravity as a separate force. Curvature in space is probably able to bring out this energy from particles, but may not be the direct cause for gravity.
The above statement is "not even wrong" (W. Pauli) and shows ignorance of battle-tested physics e.g.,
--
----------------------------
Fifth International Conference
Science and Scientist - 2017
August 18—19, 2017
Nepal Pragya Pratisthan, Kathmandu, Nepal
http://scsiscs.org/conference/scienceandscientist/2017
BHAKTI VEDANTA INSTITUTE Report Archives
http://bviscs.org/reports
Sponsorship and Donations for Vedanta and Science Dialogue: http://scienceandscientist.org/donate
Reply to Gustavo Caetano-Anollés: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2016.1160191
Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03
Life and consciousness – The Vedāntic view: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138
Harmonizer: http://scienceandscientist.org/harmonizer
Bhakti Vedanta Institute of Spiritual Culture & Science
Princeton, NJ, USA: http://bviscs.org
Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Institute: http://scsiscs.org
Darwin Under Siege: http://scienceandscientist.org/Darwin
Sadhu-Sanga Blog: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga
Contact: http://scsiscs.org/contact
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