Topping Lift Rigging NS 26

[Randolph Gadikian]

The rigging on my topping lift does not seem right as it requires a great deal of force to raise the boom.  Would someone please post a picture?  

Many thanks.

Randy Gadikian

Paisley Moon

NS 26C #37

Buffalo, New York

[Ernie Abugov N22 - #56 "Moustaches" Toronto]

Hi Randy -

Before I go even a bit further, many of us have learned (maybe not that quickly) that FRICTION is the enemy of all us Nonsuchers. Assuming that you have a 4:1 block and tackle (or maybe even a 5:1) at the end of your boom, giving you lots of mechanical advantage, i bet that your friction (which is, I am certain, making it hard to raise the boom) is stemming from your T/L line going through all of these padeyes on the boom, through, possibly, a less-than-perfect block at the front of the boom to another, just maybe, LTP block at the base of the boom, through an organizer on deck (that contributes LOTS of friction) and, finally to you.

Every single "junction" where line meets ... anything at all, contributes significant friction.

Back to the top - what kind of block and tackle do you have ?? Going on, lots of us skip a few padeyes on the boom AND, to boot, run the line through little blocks instead of padeyes. It takes a fair bit of experimentation. Some of us skip the cheek block on the end of boom, starboard side in favour of an attached block.

Joe Valinoti has, in the recent past, contributed some very clear and good photos of his T/L. I'll include a few shots of my rig. 

On another note, some of us have made it easier to raise our sails by running the main halyard straight back from the block at the base of the mast to the winch, ignoring the organizer (and the ensuing bend in the line). Anyway, hope this helps.

Ernie A. in Toronto

[Joe Valinoti]

Love your topping lift rig, Ernie!

 

Joe Valinoti
S/V IL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ (\_ ~ (\_ ~ (\_~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ (\_ ~ (\_ ~ (\_~ ~ ~ ~ ~

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[Ward Woodruff]

If the foot of your sail becomes tight before the boom is at the desired height, you need to ease the choker to get the boom higher.

Ward Woodruff
N33 #8 Margery

Niantic Bay, CT

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[R N]

FWIW, while Ernie's goes outside the boom, I removed that turning block and used a soft shackle to direct the line along the inner side of the boom.  I can't tell from Ernie's picture whether his is 3:1 purchase or more.  When I made the change to my boat, I went to 4:1 purchase.

Having multi-part purchase is crucial in making the boom easy to lift.  Rducing friction in the path of the topping lift forward along the boom is important.  Another consideration, which always arises with multi-part block arrangements, is reducing the risk of the lines through the blocks twisting around each other and creating MAJOR friction as they run across each other. 

The reason I chose to remove the cleat and turning block on the outside of the boom, and go to the soft shackle and floating block on the insde, was primarily that the safety line from the topping lift to the boom kept catching on those fittings.   That line goes slack when the topping lift's tightened while raising the sail.  Catching on the turning block and cleat then prevented the boom from coming down and thus mucked with sail shape.

-- Bob

   Solar Wind

   Nonsuch 26C #143

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[Ernie Abugov N22 - #56 "Moustaches" Toronto]

Joe -

Glad you love my arrangement - I totally stole the idea from you. I even emailed you regarding my questions about it. Do Randy a favour and re-publish your excellent photos of your setup.

Bob- 

Your arrangement is is more finessed than mine with your soft-shackled block in precisely the right location (as opposed to mine that is simply tied to the old cheek block).Nice set up.(probably even a bit nicer than Joe's but I won't tell him .....).

My block arrangement is 4:1. Good point about all of that friction from twisted lines. My fiddle blocks can be locked so that they don't pivot to prevent the whole she-bang from twisting. 

Ernie A. in Toronto

[Joe Valinoti]

I think your photo is better, Ernie, and your rigging heftier. 

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[Jim in NVa]

Joe and Ernie,
Does the primary benefit from your new arrangement come from replacing the cheek block with a better block or establishing a better lead for the topping lift to make the turn forward? Or both?

Jim Cosgrove
FATE 30U #343
Galesville, MD

[Joe Valinoti]

Better angles, less friction and a 4 to 1 purchase.

Joe Valinoti
S/V IL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ (\_ ~ (\_ ~ (\_~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ (\_ ~ (\_ ~ (\_~ ~ ~ ~ ~

-----Original Message-----
From: 'Jim in NVa' via INA Nonsuch Discussion Group
Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2019 8:51 AM
To: INA Nonsuch Discussion Group
Subject: Re: Topping Lift Rigging NS 26

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[Ernie Abugov N22 - #56 "Moustaches" Toronto]

I totally agree with Joe. Examine every point of contact that the T/L line encounters and see if it can be done without AND/OR replaced with a block (as opposed to something that has no pulley wheel). Lessening the friction makes a dramatic difference.

My boat is a small N22. With a lousy lower back, if I had an N30, I'd go with a 5:1 purchase, at least. Like, why not ??  Too much extra line ?  It's not a mainsheet and doesn't get the same amount of "action".

And (here is an area that I have NO expertise with), some cordage is much easier and smoother to work with and more comfy on the hand. Experts - please weigh in.

Ernie A. in Toronto

On Thursday, October 3, 2019 at 10:57:00 AM UTC-4, Joe Valinoti wrote:

Better angles, less friction and a 4 to 1 purchase.


Joe Valinoti
S/V IL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ (\_ ~ (\_ ~ (\_~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ (\_ ~ (\_ ~ (\_~ ~ ~ ~ ~

-----Original Message-----
From: 'Jim in NVa' via INA Nonsuch Discussion Group
Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2019 8:51 AM
To: INA Nonsuch Discussion Group
Subject: Re: Topping Lift Rigging NS 26

Joe and Ernie,
Does the primary benefit from your new arrangement come from replacing the
cheek block with a better block or establishing a better lead for the
topping lift to make the turn forward? Or both?

Jim Cosgrove
FATE 30U #343
Galesville, MD

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[Mark Powers]

I like the set ups that Bob, Joe and Ernie have. 

I have a 5:1 purchase for the topping lift tackle and changed all the blocks to Garhauer. I had to play with the cheek block at the clew of the boom to improve the lead. I also fitted three  eye bails. The biggest single improvement came when I went down one size on the line. I have locked the blocks to keep the line from twisting.  As stated above, friction is your enemy on this.

Mark Powers

La Reina 26C

Vancouver, B.C.

[Ernie Abugov N22 - #56 "Moustaches" Toronto]

Mark -

What are "three-eye bails" ?? I haven't the foggiest notion of what they are.

Thanks,

Ernie A. in Toronto

[Mark Powers]

Ernie,
I am going to the boat tomorrow and will take a picture.
Mine were from Murray Cressman. Mike Quill has them on his site in the Stores section. He calls them reef line guides

[Ernie Abugov N22 - #56 "Moustaches" Toronto]

Thanks, Mark.

Ernie A. in Toronto

[R N]

I believe the image Mark's referring to is this, which I lifted off of Mike Quill's website at http://www.mqyr.com/the_stores.html , where he bills them as "NS 22, 26, 30 Reef Line Guides":

-- Bob
   Solar Wind

   Nonsuch 26C, #143

[Ernie Abugov N22 - #56 "Moustaches" Toronto]

Thanks, Bob -

Yup, I looked it up. I'd love to see a photo (from anyone, actually) of a boom with one of these doodads installed.

Ernie A,. in Toronto

[Scott Petersen]

We have a slight variant of these on our NS30C. The central loop is turned 90 degrees to the two outside ones and is perfect for the sail cradle lines.   Not sure if they are original or not and unfortunately don't know where they came from.

[David Young]

The ones you have are like the ones we purchased from Murray Cressman ~10 years ago. We installed them on the starboard boom and moved the originals from that side to the port side. lIt was a good upgrade, noticeably less friction when using the associated control lines.

David Young

Bay Cat, 30U #402

Suttons Bay, MI

USA

[Mark Powers]

Ernie,

everyone is beating me to it. Here are two photos of the three eye bail purchased from Murray Cressman and installed on the starboard side of the boom.

Mark Powers

La Reina 26C

Vancouver, B.C.

[Mark Powers]

Here is a photo of the cheek block on the Murray Cressman boom extension that I had to adjust to achieve a fairlead on the topping lift. If you look closely you can see there is a bracket/foot under the block that lifts it away from the boom. I was able to place a large screw driver under the bracket and bend it until the line did not run against the edge of the block.

Mark Powers

La Reina 26C

Vancouver, B.C.

On Tuesday, 1 October 2019 18:12:57 UTC-7, Randolph Gadikian wrote:

[Ernie Abugov N22 - #56 "Moustaches" Toronto]

Mark -

There is no photo of the cheek block but thanks for the three-eye-bail photos.

Ernie A. in Toronto

[Mark Powers]

Darn,

hit post before I hit attach a file. Trying again. See my note above for the explanation of the photo.

[Ernie Abugov N22 - #56 "Moustaches" Toronto]

Ohhhhhhhh ....neato, Mark -

Nice installation. Is that the Granville Island bridge behind you ??

Ernie A. in Toronto

[Scott Petersen]

We have a similar setup on Ilse B. The cheek block seems to run fair without any undue sideways force.   I just recently had to pull the line out as it had become somewhat twisted and the two blocks would rotate and bind the line as a result. As Bob mentioned above, this caused a LOT of friction. 

Please note I hope to have figured out how to attach upright images this time. :-)

Scott and Anita

Ilse B - N30C #65

Bowen Island, BC

[R N]

I concur with Ernie.

One aspect of this installation that particularly impresses me is that it keeps the blocks well clear of the keeper line.  That's been a particularly annoying problem that I never solved in any of the several versions I tried.

Two questions:

• Did this all come with the Murray Cressman boom extension, or did you make modifications to that?
• How much did it cost for purchase and installation (assuming you're comfortable sharing that information)?

Thanks,

-- Bob

   Solar Wind

   Nonsuch 26C, #143

[R N]

I just saw Scott's post in addition to Mark's.

I notice that both appear to be using Garhauer Marine fiddle blocks with beckets (https://www.garhauermarine.com/blocks/fiddle-blocks-73/fiddle-blocks-with-becket-and-shackle.html).

If anyone's considering going this route, I'd strongly recommend following their example over mine.  I just used blocks that I had handy in my pile of stuff from previous boats.  The blocks they used have the advantage of keeping the lines further apart than mine, which strikes me as much more likely to reduce tangling and friction.  I suspect the wider spacing is also what gives them a fair lead and thus allows them to re-use the pre-existing turning block on the boom.

Scott and Mark: I can't tell from the pictures which size Garhauer blocks you used -- the $68 USD 40-02 with 2800 lb. Safe Working Load, the $128 50-02 with 3000 lb SWL, or the $198 70-02 with 5000 lb SWL? 

The 70-02 seems unlikely 'cause it looks like overkill for a 26 or 30 Nonsuch, but I'm curious whether you'd regard the 50-02's additional 200 lbs of SWL as worth the extra weight and cost.

-- Bob

   Solar Wind

   Nonsuch 26C, #143

[Scott Petersen]

Ilse B is new to us so can't say as to any reasoning about why these blocks were chosen but I am fairly sure that these are the 40-01 and 40-02. I base that on the visual dimensions between my picture and the picture from the Garhauer site.  If I were choosing myself, I would definitely choose the 40 series over the 50.  I can't imagine how a topping lift on a 30 (let a alone a 26) could even begin to approach the 2800 lb limit. With a 5 to 1 advantage I would have to be pulling 500 lbs on that line and even when it was twisted, I was able to lift it without a winch.

[Ernie Abugov N22 - #56 "Moustaches" Toronto]

Scott and Anita -

Just checking that you do know that you can "lock" both  blocks' rotation so that they virtually don't swivel and can't twist the line .... right ??  There is usually a tiny little finger-nail-buster slider thingie right at the swivel. 

See enclosed illustration.

Ernie A. in Toronto

[Mark Powers]

So many questions, such slow and bad typing on my part. I will try to address them in the order they have come up.

Ernie,

That is Burrard Street Bridge you see in the background. Granville Street Bridge was behind me as I took the photo. La Reina lives at the Burrard Civic Marina which is located under the Burrard Street Bridge. The current image of the marina on Google Earth was taken on July 22, 2018. La Reina was out cruising at the time so you can't see her in the slip.

Scott, as Ernie said the blocks can be locked so that they don't turn and twist the line. The Garhuer blocks have small set screws with Allen key heads. They are not finger breakers. Untwist the topping lift and make sure the blocks are lined up the way you would like and then tighten the set screws.

Bob,

 Everything came on the extension as shown in the picture, except the Garhauer cheek block. The round bar extension off the back with the fiddle block attached was an option that Murray offered and I ordered (the fiddle blocks were not part of the purchase price). The hoop shaped round bar underneath the extension where the mainsheet attaches came standard on the extension.  I had the extension installed in 2007 and can't find the purchase invoice. I did find the invoice for installation. It took about 5.5 hours and cost about $400 to be installed. It is made of stainless steel and I have always thought one made of aluminium would be lighter but thicker to obtain the same strength. I can't find the order for the purchase of the fiddle blocks but I believe they are the 40-02. The load on the topping lift is no where near 2800 lbs.

[Ernie Abugov N22 - #56 "Moustaches" Toronto]

I, like you, Mark, am a "hunt 'n pecker". This may sound rude but it means a two-finger typist. (I'm of a vintage where folks used manual typewriters.) So, sadly, it takes time. I think that things are pretty interesting right now on the Burrard Street Bridge - ball hockey and camp kitchens, anyone ??

Hope you can get to La Reina.

Best,

Ernie A. in Toronto

[Mark Powers]

Ernie, I have been called many names that are far worse.

Fortunately we do not need to cross Burrard Bridge in order to get to the marina. Last I heard was some of the protesters/demonstrators/activists were considering staying on the bridge at least in to tomorrow.

Mark Powers
La Reina 26C

Vancouver B.C.

[Brooks Bridges]

Thanks Mark, 

I was also thinking of suggesting to Ernie he go down a line size - I thought his looked a little on "fat" side. I downsized my halyard from 7/16 to 3/8 and a saw a significant reduction in friction. I'm using much smaller dyneema on topping lift (had some on hand) and it's a little hard on bare hands but I have no problem raising boom; just have to cleat securely. I WILL add a block to the cheek block ala Ernie.

Brooks Bridges

N22OB #24 An B'ad

Cambridge MD

[Randolph L Gadikian]

My thanks to all of you for posting such great responses.  My first plan of action is to go from a 3 to 1 to 4 to one purchase on the topping lift block.  That should cut the amount of force needed substantially, I think by 1/3, if there is no friction.  But now that I know the effect of friction on the topping lift system I will see if I can eliminate some of the friction in my rig.

I appreciate your wonderful comments.

[Randy Gadikian]

I am ready to buy some new blocks for the topping lift but I am not quite sure what I need to buy.

I need fiddle blocks with a becket on each end suitable for a 3/8 line.  Is that correct?

Randy

[R N]

Randy,

My suggestion would be to scroll back up in this thread to Scott Petersen's post of 10/6/19, and buy the blocks he used.

I believe those are Garhauer blocks.  Only one needs to have a becket (https://www.garhauermarine.com/blocks/fiddle-blocks-73/fiddle-blocks-with-becket-and-shackle.html), although both need shackles.  Pick the particular ones you buy based on how much working load you expect, and how much you're willing to spend.

3/8 inch line is a suitable line size, although some folks may use 5/16.  It makes a lot of turns, so it's highly desirable that it be a rope type that runs freely and won't kink.

-- Bob

   Solar Wind

   Nonsuch 26C #143

[Ernie Abugov N22 - #56 "Moustaches" Toronto]

Randy -

Bob is totally correct. Only one needs a Becket. You'll handle this line a fair bit - get line that is 'comfy' as opposed to 'too thin, too inflexible' etc. That said, i must apologize - I do not know the correct specs, brand, etc. but get good stuff and buy enough of it (like a little too much). You need enough line to be able to drop the aft end of the boom, ideally, on to the floor of your cockpit or over the side and on to your dock.

Perhaps others can chime in with ideas on a perfect line and, just maybe, the right length. If it makes any difference, you sail in fresh water. Maybe that does make a difference in what type of line to use ??

Ernie A. in Toronto

[Tom Schoenhofer, North Star, 26C#28, Penetang]

OK, Ill chime in.

I bought the Garhauer 30 fiddle blocks as Murray C recommended many years ago, 5:1. I'm now down to a nice soft flexible 1/4" line (70feet Yacht Braid rope SLS Brite 1/4 in) as John Newel suggested. I have the Cressman boom extension. I have small blocks on the boom eyes to try and reduce the friction. With this the boom takes some effort to raise but it's not a struggle. There is friction on the line because of all the turns (10 ) it has to do and there is also too much weight on the boom end. 

Adding all the new blocks didn't make raising the boom any easier, going to the light flexible line made a noticeable difference.

I would not buy the 30 series fiddle blocks again as they look clunky at the end of the boom, especially with the 1/4 line.

I would buy the 25 series triple block for the topping lift and a 25 double? with becket on the boom which would make 6:1. It would look better. You could also do buy a triple with becket for 7:1 now and rig it for 6:1 if you don't like the amount of line. I have seen other Nonsuches with these triple blocks and it looks right. 

The 26 manual specifies a Topping Lift Pennant, 1/4inch, 31 feet long, which leaves nothing for blocks on the end of the topping lift. My boat when I bought it was rigged this way - there was a cleat on the boom just forward of the topping lift turning block, the owner set the topping lift in the Spring and it stayed that way until Fall. No blocks, no problem.

Tom

26C #28

Penetang

[Mark Powers]

Tom,
I believe La Reina was originally rigged with the topping lift terminating on the boom near the clew. A subsequent owner had re run the topping lift tackle so that it came back to the cockpit. This definitely adds more friction. Reducing the size of the tackle line did more for reducing friction the anything else I tried.

If the topping lift is terminated at the boom end it becomes necessary to centre the boom to adjust the topping lift. It is made even more difficult with an enclosure. I continually adjust the topping lift. I harden it to hold up the boom when the sail is not hoisted. When motoring I lift the boom higher so that the boom does not bounce and hit the Bimini. I slack it right off when the sail is hoisted so I can shape the sail the way I like. In really light air I will harden it a bit so I can put a curve in the leech. I simply couldn’t set the topping lift in the spring and leave it to the fall. I have an uncontrollable urge to fiddle.

I found that the leech reef line would snag on the old topping lift cleat on the boom. I got fed up with that. The bolts holding the cleat would not bulge so I cut the cleat off. No cleat, fewer problems.

Mark Powers
La Reina 26C

Vancouver, B.C.

[Tom Schoenhofer, North Star, 26C#28, Penetang]

I see this end of boom topping lift cleat may have been standard equipment on the early 26s. 

I removed it a log time ago.

I just had an idea. How about an electric winch at the end of the boom and push button up and down. That would be sweet.

Tom

26C #28

Penetang 

[Randolph L Gadikian]

After much input from the group I have purchased new blocks as recommended from Garhauer Marine. Nice equipmement and I think they are now rigged correctly.

[Randy Gadikian]

I spent a few hours today fooling around with the topping lift.  As a newly retired gentleman I have the time to contemplate such things in greater depth.  

FRICTION is the DEVIL!   I removed the topping lift line from the deck organizer as suggested and low and behold I achieved movement with just my bare hands.    Granted it was a bit stiff, but this change allowed me to find a point where the topping lift is rubbing tightly against a hanger eyelet.  I put some electrical tape over the eyelet, that reduced the friction to the point where I am almost pleased with this setup.  Tomorrow I will experiment with installing a block off the wishbone as seen in Ernie's first photo.

This retirement thing is really something!

On Wednesday, October 2, 2019 at 2:30:09 PM UTC-4 Ernie Abugov N22 - #56 "Moustaches" Toronto wrote:

Hi Randy -

Before I go even a bit further, many of us have learned (maybe not that quickly) that FRICTION is the enemy of all us Nonsuchers. Assuming that you have a 4:1 block and tackle (or maybe even a 5:1) at the end of your boom, giving you lots of mechanical advantage, i bet that your friction (which is, I am certain, making it hard to raise the boom) is stemming from your T/L line going through all of these padeyes on the boom, through, possibly, a less-than-perfect block at the front of the boom to another, just maybe, LTP block at the base of the boom, through an organizer on deck (that contributes LOTS of friction) and, finally to you.

Every single "junction" where line meets ... anything at all, contributes significant friction.

Back to the top - what kind of block and tackle do you have ?? Going on, lots of us skip a few padeyes on the boom AND, to boot, run the line through little blocks instead of padeyes. It takes a fair bit of experimentation. Some of us skip the cheek block on the end of boom, starboard side in favour of an attached block.

Joe Valinoti has, in the recent past, contributed some very clear and good photos of his T/L. I'll include a few shots of my rig. 

On another note, some of us have made it easier to raise our sails by running the main halyard straight back from the block at the base of the mast to the winch, ignoring the organizer (and the ensuing bend in the line). Anyway, hope this helps.

Ernie A. in Toronto

[Ernie Abugov N22 - #56 "Moustaches" Toronto]

Yes, Randy, retirement is good (especially NOW).

Credit should go where it is due. I started getting on the "reduce friction" bandwagon when reading the postings of one John Newell, who sails "Mascouche".  He's done things like running lines INSIDE of the boom.

I think that it's a good idea to really experiment with where your lines run on a Nonsuch, especially. Yes, Mark Ellis designed a superb boat but little things change and we all get these interesting and goofy ideas that, sometime, are very much "out of the box".

There are rules and there are rules. And then .....

Have fun with your boat and enjoy your retirement - you earned it.

Ernie A. in Toronto