Again with the Format Discussion

[Christopher Phillips]

Hello everyone- 

Those of you who have been a part of this effort for awhile know that we have discussed this before and may be tired of the discussion, but I could use some help again in a discussion on formats. 

It is clear that we need to provide a downloadable format besides web braille files. The question then, is what format we should provide. Some of you might recommend that we create all of them and although we would love to be able to do that one day, for now at least we need to figure out what other format to offer. 

After many discussions and an especially helpful discussion this morning (thanks Greg!) my sense is that we should settle on one of three choices: 

1. Plain Text 
2. RTF Text (with headings) 
3. Downloadable HTML (with headings and links)

I am offering no promises or timeline, but want to move ahead in one of these directions and need your feedback sooner rather than later. If you have strong feelings about using one of those formats over another, please let me know either by replying to this email or sending an email to disab...@ldschurch.org.  I don’t need them in order of preference, just give me your top choice and any information you care to share on why. 

Thanks so much! 

--

Christopher Phillips

Disability Services

Priesthood Department

http://disability.lds.org 

(801) 240-8318

NOTICE: This email message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply email and destroy all copies of the original message.

[Travis Butler]

My immediate thought is txt. Small file size, especially if zipped, and as
far as I know, anything can read txt without issues. No, there are no
headings and links, but that's also true with brf files. If something is
needed with headings and links, why not either browse the publications that
are available on the church site itself, or grab epub files if available,
and if they have a working table of contents. As time moves forward, more
devices and add-ons are being made available that handle epub.
My ultimate thought is, and will always be, all of the above.
Travis

----- Original Message -----
From: "Christopher Phillips" <Phill...@ldschurch.org>
To: "Blind LDS" <blin...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2014 9:29 AM
Subject: [BlindLDS] Again with the Format Discussion


Hello everyone-
Those of you who have been a part of this effort for awhile know that we
have discussed this before and may be tired of the discussion, but I could
use some help again in a discussion on formats.

It is clear that we need to provide a downloadable format besides web
braille files. The question then, is what format we should provide. Some of
you might recommend that we create all of them and although we would love to
be able to do that one day, for now at least we need to figure out what
other format to offer.

After many discussions and an especially helpful discussion this morning
(thanks Greg!) my sense is that we should settle on one of three choices:

1. Plain Text
2. RTF Text (with headings)
3. Downloadable HTML (with headings and links)

I am offering no promises or timeline, but want to move ahead in one of
these directions and need your feedback sooner rather than later. If you
have strong feelings about using one of those formats over another, please
let me know either by replying to this email or sending an email to
disab...@ldschurch.org. I don't need them in order of preference, just
give me your top choice and any information you care to share on why.

Thanks so much!

--

Christopher Phillips
Disability Services
Priesthood Department
http://disability.lds.org
(801) 240-8318


NOTICE: This email message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s)
and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized
review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the
intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply email and destroy all
copies of the original message.

--
-- Visit the LDS.org Disability website at http://www.lds.org/disability

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[linda reeder]

I think plain text would be the way to go. There isn't any
machine that would have a problem with that. Then I could put it
in my APX braille note and translate it to braille. This is how
it was done in the past and it worked great. I know that times
are changing, but our expensive devices aren't changing. Thanks
Linda Reeder

[Greg Kearney]

The issue with ASCII text is there will be no navigation at all making thing hard to find.

Chris, given that we are dealing with text here do we have to make such a decision? Why not have a system which takes a source file, your XML and renders it out in any number of formats either that we store or that could be generated as needed from source and delivered. The user would pick the format they wanted, text, html, RTF, Word, Braille, what ever and the system would convert the source document to the requested format and deliver it to the user.

In this way we don’t have to choose a format we could have them all.

Commonwealth Braille & Talking Book Cooperative
Greg Kearney, General Manager
605 Robson Street, Suite 850
Vancouver BC V6B 5J3
CANADA
Email: in...@cbtbc.org

U.S. Address
21908 Almaden Av.
Cupertino, CA 95014
UNITED STATES
Email: gkea...@gmail.com

On May 20, 2014, at 11:03 AM, linda reeder <n7...@xmission.com> wrote:

> I think plain text would be the way to go. There isn't any machine that would have a problem with that. Then I could put it in my APX braille note and translate it to braille. This is how it was done in the past and it worked great. I know that times are changing, but our expensive devices aren't changing. Thanks Linda Reeder
>

[Sherri]

That is my problem with plain text files. If someone tells you it's on page
122, you have nothing to go by. A BRF file would at least have the page
numbers.

[Christopher Phillips]

Great question Greg - we have explored doing this and as many of you know
there are services online that offer this type of conversion such as
http://www.robobraille.org or http://scribe.stanford.edu/index.html.

We have explored doing something like this, but for a number of reasons I
won¹t go into, any system that we build to do that would need to integrate
with multiple media, content management, and other systems. In short,
building such a system would be the easy part, but getting integrated into
all of our other systems would likely take years.


I am also getting feedback off the list, but so far on the list have heard
2 votes for plain text and 0 votes for anything else. Anyone else have an
opinion?

For Travis and Linda who prefer plain text- do you know if RTF or HTML
would work for you?

--

Christopher Phillips
Disability Services
Priesthood Department
http://disability.lds.org
(801) 240-8318

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[Joey Couch]

Good afternoon all I my self wood be in favor of using rtf text
because in order to use the third option I think you haf to be
conected if memory serves me write.
I have not used html files in a while so I maybe rong.
Joey Couch

> --
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--
Joey Couch
phone 606-216-8033.
email ki4...@gmail.com
twitter @ki4vjd
facebook ki4vjd

[Greg Kearney]

I would say HTML it is modern and can be turned into other files.

Sent from my iPhone

Greg Kearney
Commonwealth Braille and Talking Book Cooperative

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[Greg Kearney]

Here is why we would want HTML or more formally XHTML, HTML has structure. Ic can identify print pages for example, It can link to the books, chapters and verses of the content and so on.

Once we have HTML it is a simple matter to generate Braille, text, RTF or even ePub from it. The same can not be said for plain text. plain text would be very hard to get into any kind of structured format. Baicly it is easy to go from a structured format to an unstructured one lie text or Braille but very hard to take unstructured formats and make structured ones from them.

Commonwealth Braille & Talking Book Cooperative
Greg Kearney, General Manager
605 Robson Street, Suite 850
Vancouver BC V6B 5J3
CANADA
Email: in...@cbtbc.org

U.S. Address
21908 Almaden Av.
Cupertino, CA 95014
UNITED STATES
Email: gkea...@gmail.com

[Greg Kearney]

No HTML files can be read without any connection to the internet. True most such file you read from the internet but what really happens is that when you get a webpage you are downloading the whole page to a temporary puffer location in your computer’s memory it the same as if you had the HTML file on your drive and opened it with a browser. Indeed browsers have open commands that will open a file from the local drive even if you had no internet connection at all.

What we are talking about here is to have the scriptures sent as HTML files, you would then download the file to your computer or Braille note taker and read it from there.

BRF file present an issue which you might not be aware of, when you read a BRF file on a note taker you are, in fact, not reading the file as sent to you. Rather what is happening is that the BRF file is first back translated into a text file, then the system opens that back translation and translate that text back into Braille for display. They same method is used when you read a BRF file on a VictorReader Stream.

The problem here is that back translation is far from perfect so you are introducing errors into the text. Many BRF file are carefully proofread to insure that they will emboss a perfect Braille copy. Also no automated Brailly translation software is perfect so we end up introducing errors a second time when the braille translation software is used to generate the Braille that will be shown on the display.

Early Braille displays did not have this translation function. You simply streamed the text via a serial connection to the display as if it were a dumb terminal, which in fact it was. but modern systems such as note takers have introduced this idea of being able to convert text to Braille and so no when you read a BRF file it has in fact been converted from the original text three times. Once to get the BRF file that was sent to you. Once when the system converted that BRF file back to text and a third time when that text was converted back to Braille for your display.

As any printer will tell you every time you handle a text the possibility of error grow and so it is with Braille on computers and other similar devices.

Commonwealth Braille & Talking Book Cooperative
Greg Kearney, General Manager
605 Robson Street, Suite 850
Vancouver BC V6B 5J3
CANADA
Email: in...@cbtbc.org

U.S. Address
21908 Almaden Av.
Cupertino, CA 95014
UNITED STATES
Email: gkea...@gmail.com

On May 20, 2014, at 12:15 PM, Joey Couch <ki4...@gmail.com> wrote:

[linda reeder]

Shrri I love BRF too but Christopher is looking for other files
besides BRF files. I like having the page numbers as well.
Linda Reeder

[Greg Kearney]

HTML and even text could give you the page numbers. For example at the star of every page you could add the phase "Page XX" where XX is the page number on a paragraph by itself. Like this:

This is the end of a page.
Page 23
This is the start of the text on page 23

A search for the sting "Page 23" would then take you to the start of that page. In HTML the process would be better because you could control the output better for example:

… This is the end of a page.<p>
<p class="pagenumber" id="p23">Page 23</p
<p>This is the start of the text on page 23 ...

Now we could control how the page numbers looked or even how to interact with the page given that it now has unique ID, in this example "p23".

Commonwealth Braille & Talking Book Cooperative
Greg Kearney, General Manager
605 Robson Street, Suite 850
Vancouver BC V6B 5J3
CANADA
Email: in...@cbtbc.org

U.S. Address
21908 Almaden Av.
Cupertino, CA 95014
UNITED STATES
Email: gkea...@gmail.com

On May 20, 2014, at 12:43 PM, linda reeder <n7...@xmission.com> wrote:

> Shrri I love BRF too but Christopher is looking for other files besides BRF files. I like having the page numbers as well. Linda Reeder
>

[Kirt Manwaring]

I would vote HTML. Virtually all of us have access to a web browser, even on the mobile notetaker; the heading navigation is a very powerful tool and I feel like navigating by headings is more seamless and easy for most people in a web browser rather than a wordprocessor.

Sent from my iPhone

[Travis Butler]

Yes, any of the other formats would work just fine for me personally.
Travis

----- Original Message -----
From: "Christopher Phillips" <Phill...@ldschurch.org>
To: <Blin...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2014 12:09 PM
Subject: Re: [BlindLDS] Again with the Format Discussion

Great question Greg - we have explored doing this and as many of you know
there are services online that offer this type of conversion such as
http://www.robobraille.org or http://scribe.stanford.edu/index.html.

We have explored doing something like this, but for a number of reasons I

wonšt go into, any system that we build to do that would need to integrate

--
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[Sherri]

I agree.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Greg Kearney" <gkea...@gmail.com>
To: <Blin...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2014 3:16 PM
Subject: Re: [BlindLDS] Again with the Format Discussion

[ron govin]

This sounds intriguing. Can we see some samples in html, as to
how this might work?

----- Original Message -----
From: Christopher Phillips <Phill...@ldschurch.org
To: Blind LDS <blin...@googlegroups.com

Date sent: Tue, 20 May 2014 16:29:34 +0000
Subject: [BlindLDS] Again with the Format Discussion

Hello everyone-
Those of you who have been a part of this effort for awhile know
that we have discussed this before and may be tired of the
discussion, but I could use some help again in a discussion on
formats.

It is clear that we need to provide a downloadable format besides
web braille files. The question then, is what format we should
provide. Some of you might recommend that we create all of them
and although we would love to be able to do that one day, for now
at least we need to figure out what other format to offer.

After many discussions and an especially helpful discussion this
morning (thanks Greg!) my sense is that we should settle on one
of three choices:

1. Plain Text
2. RTF Text (with headings)

3. Downloadable HTML (with headings and links)

I am offering no promises or timeline, but want to move ahead in
one of these directions and need your feedback sooner rather than
later. If you have strong feelings about using one of those
formats over another, please let me know either by replying to
this email or sending an email to disab...@ldschurch.org. I
don't need them in order of preference, just give me your top
choice and any information you care to share on why.

Thanks so much!

--

Christopher Phillips
Disability Services
Priesthood Department
http://disability.lds.org
(801) 240-8318

[Sandy England]

I agree !

Sandy England
Home Phone in California: 530-824-4134
Home Phone in Utah: 801-282-1905
Cell Phone: 801-634-8002

[Greg Kearney]

Really folk you do not have to choose a format. As I have shown it is a simple matter to take HTML and turn it into any format you want.

Commonwealth Braille & Talking Book Cooperative
Greg Kearney, General Manager
605 Robson Street, Suite 850
Vancouver BC V6B 5J3
CANADA
Email: in...@cbtbc.org

U.S. Address
21908 Almaden Av.
Cupertino, CA 95014
UNITED STATES
Email: gkea...@gmail.com

[ron govin]

Either i misread something or didn't quite understand. How were
you able to change to the different formats, and would you use
different software to change it?

----- Original Message -----
From: Greg Kearney <gkea...@gmail.com
To: Blin...@googlegroups.com

[Greg Kearney]

OK here is my idea, because HTML provides for not only the text of the document but also the structure of the document as well we can use this to transform the document into any form that we might need using computer programs.

In my example I used the MacOS built in utility program called textutil to transform my short example of 1 Nephi 1 from HTML to text and to RTF. I use another free program file2brl to generate a Braille BRF file.

The way I see this working is that you would go to a website, choose the book and the format you wanted and the website you, using these or similar tools, generate that format from the original HTML file. In this way the books would only need to have a single source format, HTML, but could be delivered to the user in a wide range of formats as needed. When the church needed to update any text it simply replaces the HTML file in the server and the next time someone asks for a text, RTF, Braille or even ePub version the server builds and delivers that updated verso to them.

With this method no one is forced to use a format that is not suited to their particular needs.

Commonwealth Braille & Talking Book Cooperative
Greg Kearney, General Manager
605 Robson Street, Suite 850
Vancouver BC V6B 5J3
CANADA
Email: in...@cbtbc.org

U.S. Address
21908 Almaden Av.
Cupertino, CA 95014
UNITED STATES
Email: gkea...@gmail.com

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[parakeet]

Greg, How would someone who has never done this before convert a HTML file
to a TXT file.
Would we need to download extra software like the 2 you mentioned to convert
files.
I would be interst in HTML format if I had help converting my files.

Melody.

[Greg Kearney]

No the idea here is that when you go to download the file you would choose the format you want from the web page. The server would then do the conversion using the HTML file as the master and deliver to you the format you wanted.

Commonwealth Braille & Talking Book Cooperative
Greg Kearney, General Manager
605 Robson Street, Suite 850
Vancouver BC V6B 5J3
CANADA
Email: in...@cbtbc.org

U.S. Address
21908 Almaden Av.
Cupertino, CA 95014
UNITED STATES
Email: gkea...@gmail.com

[parakeet]

Okay that sounds good but I don't think it has a brl option from the web
page.
So we w
Melody.ould use a brl file converter right?

[Greg Kearney]

BRL would just become one of the options you would be able to choose from they all would originate from the master HTML file.

Commonwealth Braille & Talking Book Cooperative
Greg Kearney, General Manager
605 Robson Street, Suite 850
Vancouver BC V6B 5J3
CANADA
Email: in...@cbtbc.org

U.S. Address
21908 Almaden Av.
Cupertino, CA 95014
UNITED STATES
Email: gkea...@gmail.com

[Christopher Phillips]

Thanks for the great feedback to everyone on the different formats, this
has been a really helpful discussion. It sounds like a good first step
would be to go with an HTML file. I am going to work on getting approval
to do this and a sample file that people can try out to make sure they
work as well as the one Greg produced.

A quick question- any input on how the HTML should be broken down? One
HTNL file per chapter and zipped or one HTML file for an entire book of
scripture such as the New Testament or Book of Mormon?

Thank you to everyone for your help with this!

--

Christopher Phillips
Disability Services
Priesthood Department
http://disability.lds.org
(801) 240-8318

>>>>https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v1/url?u=http://lds.org/&k=wlPCrglRP6
>>>>kzT4RbABWMaw%3D%3D%0A&r=lM7mTtbq1Wcb5aqx8QpSZXr6hNw9Hqg%2FLspjviALAqg%3
>>>>D%0A&m=mlbSmRJ%2B64QwpnnkVPXkR%2FF83FswfKsciDHDEu5wic0%3D%0A&s=61a059a5
>>>>6890469220069e3bf9fcc260a951746c69e0f5285f8f5e6bd45cdc93 Disability

>>>>website at http://www.lds.org/disability
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>>>>forum/blindlds?hl%3Den&k=wlPCrglRP6kzT4RbABWMaw%3D%3D%0A&r=lM7mTtbq1Wcb
>>>>5aqx8QpSZXr6hNw9Hqg%2FLspjviALAqg%3D%0A&m=mlbSmRJ%2B64QwpnnkVPXkR%2FF83
>>>>FswfKsciDHDEu5wic0%3D%0A&s=eae2593d957302e459c5c9f79fb24abcc0ac41c30340
>>>>a427718f212e3c558f9e

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>>>>up/BlindLDS&k=wlPCrglRP6kzT4RbABWMaw%3D%3D%0A&r=lM7mTtbq1Wcb5aqx8QpSZXr
>>>>6hNw9Hqg%2FLspjviALAqg%3D%0A&m=mlbSmRJ%2B64QwpnnkVPXkR%2FF83FswfKsciDHD
>>>>Eu5wic0%3D%0A&s=09eb95abbf8767a31cfa341f0025acbfa4410cea51fbf8a5aaedd98
>>>>db09ddd43.
>>>> For more options, visit
>>>>https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v1/url?u=https://groups.google.com/d/
>>>>optout&k=wlPCrglRP6kzT4RbABWMaw%3D%3D%0A&r=lM7mTtbq1Wcb5aqx8QpSZXr6hNw9
>>>>Hqg%2FLspjviALAqg%3D%0A&m=mlbSmRJ%2B64QwpnnkVPXkR%2FF83FswfKsciDHDEu5wi
>>>>c0%3D%0A&s=e1b4941e95cee02c95de9b65766c98a5e53b80f11fcce334cb48437dcbc0
>>>>1c2a.

>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> -- Visit the
>>>>https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v1/url?u=http://lds.org/&k=wlPCrglRP6
>>>>kzT4RbABWMaw%3D%3D%0A&r=lM7mTtbq1Wcb5aqx8QpSZXr6hNw9Hqg%2FLspjviALAqg%3

>>>>D%0A&m=mlbSmRJ%2B64QwpnnkVPXkR%2FF83FswfKsciDHDEu5wic0%3D%0A&s=61a059a5
>>>>6890469220069e3bf9fcc260a951746c69e0f5285f8f5e6bd45cdc93 Disability

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>>>>forum/blindlds?hl%3Den&k=wlPCrglRP6kzT4RbABWMaw%3D%3D%0A&r=lM7mTtbq1Wcb
>>>>5aqx8QpSZXr6hNw9Hqg%2FLspjviALAqg%3D%0A&m=mlbSmRJ%2B64QwpnnkVPXkR%2FF83
>>>>FswfKsciDHDEu5wic0%3D%0A&s=eae2593d957302e459c5c9f79fb24abcc0ac41c30340
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>>>>up/BlindLDS&k=wlPCrglRP6kzT4RbABWMaw%3D%3D%0A&r=lM7mTtbq1Wcb5aqx8QpSZXr
>>>>6hNw9Hqg%2FLspjviALAqg%3D%0A&m=mlbSmRJ%2B64QwpnnkVPXkR%2FF83FswfKsciDHD
>>>>Eu5wic0%3D%0A&s=09eb95abbf8767a31cfa341f0025acbfa4410cea51fbf8a5aaedd98
>>>>db09ddd43.
>>>> For more options, visit
>>>>https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v1/url?u=https://groups.google.com/d/
>>>>optout&k=wlPCrglRP6kzT4RbABWMaw%3D%3D%0A&r=lM7mTtbq1Wcb5aqx8QpSZXr6hNw9
>>>>Hqg%2FLspjviALAqg%3D%0A&m=mlbSmRJ%2B64QwpnnkVPXkR%2FF83FswfKsciDHDEu5wi
>>>>c0%3D%0A&s=e1b4941e95cee02c95de9b65766c98a5e53b80f11fcce334cb48437dcbc0
>>>>1c2a.

>>>
>>> --
>>> -- Visit the
>>>https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v1/url?u=http://lds.org/&k=wlPCrglRP6k
>>>zT4RbABWMaw%3D%3D%0A&r=lM7mTtbq1Wcb5aqx8QpSZXr6hNw9Hqg%2FLspjviALAqg%3D%

>>>0A&m=mlbSmRJ%2B64QwpnnkVPXkR%2FF83FswfKsciDHDEu5wic0%3D%0A&s=61a059a5689
>>>0469220069e3bf9fcc260a951746c69e0f5285f8f5e6bd45cdc93 Disability

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>>>orum/blindlds?hl%3Den&k=wlPCrglRP6kzT4RbABWMaw%3D%3D%0A&r=lM7mTtbq1Wcb5a
>>>qx8QpSZXr6hNw9Hqg%2FLspjviALAqg%3D%0A&m=mlbSmRJ%2B64QwpnnkVPXkR%2FF83Fsw
>>>fKsciDHDEu5wic0%3D%0A&s=eae2593d957302e459c5c9f79fb24abcc0ac41c30340a427
>>>718f212e3c558f9e

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>>>p/BlindLDS&k=wlPCrglRP6kzT4RbABWMaw%3D%3D%0A&r=lM7mTtbq1Wcb5aqx8QpSZXr6h
>>>Nw9Hqg%2FLspjviALAqg%3D%0A&m=mlbSmRJ%2B64QwpnnkVPXkR%2FF83FswfKsciDHDEu5
>>>wic0%3D%0A&s=09eb95abbf8767a31cfa341f0025acbfa4410cea51fbf8a5aaedd98db09
>>>ddd43.
>>> For more options, visit
>>>https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v1/url?u=https://groups.google.com/d/o
>>>ptout&k=wlPCrglRP6kzT4RbABWMaw%3D%3D%0A&r=lM7mTtbq1Wcb5aqx8QpSZXr6hNw9Hq
>>>g%2FLspjviALAqg%3D%0A&m=mlbSmRJ%2B64QwpnnkVPXkR%2FF83FswfKsciDHDEu5wic0%
>>>3D%0A&s=e1b4941e95cee02c95de9b65766c98a5e53b80f11fcce334cb48437dcbc01c2a
>>>.

>>> --
>>> -- Visit the
>>>https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v1/url?u=http://lds.org/&k=wlPCrglRP6k
>>>zT4RbABWMaw%3D%3D%0A&r=lM7mTtbq1Wcb5aqx8QpSZXr6hNw9Hqg%2FLspjviALAqg%3D%

>>>0A&m=mlbSmRJ%2B64QwpnnkVPXkR%2FF83FswfKsciDHDEu5wic0%3D%0A&s=61a059a5689
>>>0469220069e3bf9fcc260a951746c69e0f5285f8f5e6bd45cdc93 Disability

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>>>orum/blindlds?hl%3Den&k=wlPCrglRP6kzT4RbABWMaw%3D%3D%0A&r=lM7mTtbq1Wcb5a
>>>qx8QpSZXr6hNw9Hqg%2FLspjviALAqg%3D%0A&m=mlbSmRJ%2B64QwpnnkVPXkR%2FF83Fsw
>>>fKsciDHDEu5wic0%3D%0A&s=eae2593d957302e459c5c9f79fb24abcc0ac41c30340a427
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>>>p/BlindLDS&k=wlPCrglRP6kzT4RbABWMaw%3D%3D%0A&r=lM7mTtbq1Wcb5aqx8QpSZXr6h
>>>Nw9Hqg%2FLspjviALAqg%3D%0A&m=mlbSmRJ%2B64QwpnnkVPXkR%2FF83FswfKsciDHDEu5
>>>wic0%3D%0A&s=09eb95abbf8767a31cfa341f0025acbfa4410cea51fbf8a5aaedd98db09
>>>ddd43.
>>> For more options, visit
>>>https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v1/url?u=https://groups.google.com/d/o
>>>ptout&k=wlPCrglRP6kzT4RbABWMaw%3D%3D%0A&r=lM7mTtbq1Wcb5aqx8QpSZXr6hNw9Hq
>>>g%2FLspjviALAqg%3D%0A&m=mlbSmRJ%2B64QwpnnkVPXkR%2FF83FswfKsciDHDEu5wic0%
>>>3D%0A&s=e1b4941e95cee02c95de9b65766c98a5e53b80f11fcce334cb48437dcbc01c2a
>>>.

>>
>> --
>> -- Visit the
>>https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v1/url?u=http://lds.org/&k=wlPCrglRP6kz
>>T4RbABWMaw%3D%3D%0A&r=lM7mTtbq1Wcb5aqx8QpSZXr6hNw9Hqg%2FLspjviALAqg%3D%0A

>>&m=mlbSmRJ%2B64QwpnnkVPXkR%2FF83FswfKsciDHDEu5wic0%3D%0A&s=61a059a5689046
>>9220069e3bf9fcc260a951746c69e0f5285f8f5e6bd45cdc93 Disability website at

>>http://www.lds.org/disability
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>>rum/blindlds?hl%3Den&k=wlPCrglRP6kzT4RbABWMaw%3D%3D%0A&r=lM7mTtbq1Wcb5aqx
>>8QpSZXr6hNw9Hqg%2FLspjviALAqg%3D%0A&m=mlbSmRJ%2B64QwpnnkVPXkR%2FF83FswfKs
>>ciDHDEu5wic0%3D%0A&s=eae2593d957302e459c5c9f79fb24abcc0ac41c30340a427718f
>>212e3c558f9e

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>>/BlindLDS&k=wlPCrglRP6kzT4RbABWMaw%3D%3D%0A&r=lM7mTtbq1Wcb5aqx8QpSZXr6hNw
>>9Hqg%2FLspjviALAqg%3D%0A&m=mlbSmRJ%2B64QwpnnkVPXkR%2FF83FswfKsciDHDEu5wic
>>0%3D%0A&s=09eb95abbf8767a31cfa341f0025acbfa4410cea51fbf8a5aaedd98db09ddd4
>>3.
>> For more options, visit
>>https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v1/url?u=https://groups.google.com/d/op
>>tout&k=wlPCrglRP6kzT4RbABWMaw%3D%3D%0A&r=lM7mTtbq1Wcb5aqx8QpSZXr6hNw9Hqg%
>>2FLspjviALAqg%3D%0A&m=mlbSmRJ%2B64QwpnnkVPXkR%2FF83FswfKsciDHDEu5wic0%3D%
>>0A&s=e1b4941e95cee02c95de9b65766c98a5e53b80f11fcce334cb48437dcbc01c2a.

>> --
>> -- Visit the
>>https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v1/url?u=http://lds.org/&k=wlPCrglRP6kz
>>T4RbABWMaw%3D%3D%0A&r=lM7mTtbq1Wcb5aqx8QpSZXr6hNw9Hqg%2FLspjviALAqg%3D%0A

>>&m=mlbSmRJ%2B64QwpnnkVPXkR%2FF83FswfKsciDHDEu5wic0%3D%0A&s=61a059a5689046
>>9220069e3bf9fcc260a951746c69e0f5285f8f5e6bd45cdc93 Disability website at

>>http://www.lds.org/disability
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>>rum/blindlds?hl%3Den&k=wlPCrglRP6kzT4RbABWMaw%3D%3D%0A&r=lM7mTtbq1Wcb5aqx
>>8QpSZXr6hNw9Hqg%2FLspjviALAqg%3D%0A&m=mlbSmRJ%2B64QwpnnkVPXkR%2FF83FswfKs
>>ciDHDEu5wic0%3D%0A&s=eae2593d957302e459c5c9f79fb24abcc0ac41c30340a427718f
>>212e3c558f9e

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>>/BlindLDS&k=wlPCrglRP6kzT4RbABWMaw%3D%3D%0A&r=lM7mTtbq1Wcb5aqx8QpSZXr6hNw
>>9Hqg%2FLspjviALAqg%3D%0A&m=mlbSmRJ%2B64QwpnnkVPXkR%2FF83FswfKsciDHDEu5wic
>>0%3D%0A&s=09eb95abbf8767a31cfa341f0025acbfa4410cea51fbf8a5aaedd98db09ddd4
>>3.
>> For more options, visit
>>https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v1/url?u=https://groups.google.com/d/op
>>tout&k=wlPCrglRP6kzT4RbABWMaw%3D%3D%0A&r=lM7mTtbq1Wcb5aqx8QpSZXr6hNw9Hqg%
>>2FLspjviALAqg%3D%0A&m=mlbSmRJ%2B64QwpnnkVPXkR%2FF83FswfKsciDHDEu5wic0%3D%
>>0A&s=e1b4941e95cee02c95de9b65766c98a5e53b80f11fcce334cb48437dcbc01c2a.

>
>--
>-- Visit the
>https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v1/url?u=http://lds.org/&k=wlPCrglRP6kzT
>4RbABWMaw%3D%3D%0A&r=lM7mTtbq1Wcb5aqx8QpSZXr6hNw9Hqg%2FLspjviALAqg%3D%0A&m

>=mlbSmRJ%2B64QwpnnkVPXkR%2FF83FswfKsciDHDEu5wic0%3D%0A&s=61a059a5689046922
>0069e3bf9fcc260a951746c69e0f5285f8f5e6bd45cdc93 Disability website at

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>um/blindlds?hl%3Den&k=wlPCrglRP6kzT4RbABWMaw%3D%3D%0A&r=lM7mTtbq1Wcb5aqx8Q
>pSZXr6hNw9Hqg%2FLspjviALAqg%3D%0A&m=mlbSmRJ%2B64QwpnnkVPXkR%2FF83FswfKsciD
>HDEu5wic0%3D%0A&s=eae2593d957302e459c5c9f79fb24abcc0ac41c30340a427718f212e
>3c558f9e

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>qg%2FLspjviALAqg%3D%0A&m=mlbSmRJ%2B64QwpnnkVPXkR%2FF83FswfKsciDHDEu5wic0%3
>D%0A&s=09eb95abbf8767a31cfa341f0025acbfa4410cea51fbf8a5aaedd98db09ddd43.
>For more options, visit
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>out&k=wlPCrglRP6kzT4RbABWMaw%3D%3D%0A&r=lM7mTtbq1Wcb5aqx8QpSZXr6hNw9Hqg%2F
>LspjviALAqg%3D%0A&m=mlbSmRJ%2B64QwpnnkVPXkR%2FF83FswfKsciDHDEu5wic0%3D%0A&
>s=e1b4941e95cee02c95de9b65766c98a5e53b80f11fcce334cb48437dcbc01c2a.

[Kyle Woodruff]

I would even go so far as to stay one HTML purse standard work. The fewer files the better. By chapter is way too many files!

Sent from my iPhone

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[Aaron Cannon]

I agree that the fewer files, the better. However, we will probably
run into issues with loading extremely large HTML files. The problem
is that many screen readers, like Jaws, load the entire contents into
their virtual buffer, which is apparently not designed to scale well,
so the result is that the screen reader takes forever to load the
document, and when it does, it runs very slowly.

For an example of this, if you're using a screen reader, try loading
this HTML book from Project Gutenberg (warning, expect your computer
to freeze or become unresponsive):
http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/30.html.gen

That is the entire KJV.

Even the Book of Mormon is likely to cause problems:
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/17/17-h/17-h.htm

Also, I would recommend against autocreating a braille version, unless
this is the only option for getting a Braille version. I don't trust
Braille translation software to get it all right, especially the
formatting. When it's a simple conversion from HTML to Epub or
plaintext, that's a different matter, as there are far fewer
ambiguities.

Aaron

[Kyle Woodruff]

You have a good point Erin can we compromise? How about each book. Matthew, Mark, etc?

Sent from my iPhone

[Travis Butler]

I thought of that too, and possibly two files for a larger book such as
Alma. Large html files was one of the reasons I initially said txt.
Travis

[Greg Kearney]

I would agree with Aaron here. Books of the Bible or the Book of Mormon as files would be fine. I also agree that computer translated Braille is no replacement for human proofed Braille. I generated mine onlyby way of an example.

Think of it this way. Would the church find it acceptable to deliver the Book of Mormon into a new language using Google Translate alone to do the translation?

That said all the materials you read online on a braille display are the result of computer translation without proof reading. And even if you read a BRF file on many devices what you are reading is not the original BRF file but rather that file which has been back translated into text and then forward translated back to Braille with all the issues that this process would suggest.

Greg Kearney

21908 Almaden Av.
Cupertino, CA 95014
UNITED STATES
Email: gkea...@gmail.com

[Greg Kearney]

No HTML files can be read without any connection to the internet. True most such file you read from the internet but what really happens is that when you get a webpage you are downloading the whole page to a temporary puffer location in your computer’s memory it the same as if you had the HTML file on your drive and opened it with a browser. Indeed browsers have open commands that will open a file from the local drive even if you had no internet connection at all.

What we are talking about here is to have the scriptures sent as HTML files, you would then download the file to your computer or Braille note taker and read it from there.

BRF file present an issue which you might not be aware of, when you read a BRF file on a note taker you are, in fact, not reading the file as sent to you. Rather what is happening is that the BRF file is first back translated into a text file, then the system opens that back translation and translate that text back into Braille for display. They same method is used when you read a BRF file on a VictorReader Stream.

The problem here is that back translation is far from perfect so you are introducing errors into the text. Many BRF file are carefully proofread to insure that they will emboss a perfect Braille copy. Also no automated Brailly translation software is perfect so we end up introducing errors a second time when the braille translation software is used to generate the Braille that will be shown on the display.

Early Braille displays did not have this translation function. You simply streamed the text via a serial connection to the display as if it were a dumb terminal, which in fact it was. but modern systems such as note takers have introduced this idea of being able to convert text to Braille and so no when you read a BRF file it has in fact been converted from the original text three times. Once to get the BRF file that was sent to you. Once when the system converted that BRF file back to text and a third time when that text was converted back to Braille for your display.

As any printer will tell you every time you handle a text the possibility of error grow and so it is with Braille on computers and other similar devices.

Commonwealth Braille & Talking Book Cooperative
Greg Kearney, General Manager
605 Robson Street, Suite 850
Vancouver BC V6B 5J3
CANADA
Email: in...@cbtbc.org

U.S. Address
21908 Almaden Av.
Cupertino, CA 95014
UNITED STATES
Email: gkea...@gmail.com

On May 20, 2014, at 12:15 PM, Joey Couch <ki4...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Greg Kearney]

HTML files only a small amount of extra sixe to the file over text. If a book was too big in HTML it would be too big in text as well.

Greg Kearney

21908 Almaden Av.
Cupertino, CA 95014
UNITED STATES
Email: gkea...@gmail.com

[Kirt Manwaring]

I tend to think that separating each standard work by book is the most
efficient option and, to be frank, it kind of baffles me that this has
not been done in the past.
Best,
Kirt

[Travis Butler]

Here's a link to a KJV Bible that can be read online or downloaded in zipped
html, epub or mobi format. Files are divided by book, and each chapter by a
heading within that book.
http://ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/b/bible/
On that page, either click on "table of contents" or "next" to get to the
next page, which is the contents.
I wouldn't mind if our Scriptures were done in a similar format. I know
that, when I try to open a Bible, such as the Project Gutenberg version,
that is one long html page, things take forever to load, and sometimes crash
both Firefox and Internet Explorer, both with NVDA and the JAWS
screenreaders. If there is a good Table of Contents, and with some
separation of files, I have no trouble.

Travis
----- Original Message -----

From: "Kirt Manwaring" <manwari...@gmail.com>
To: <Blin...@googlegroups.com>

[Linda Reeder]

When I got the first braille note Diane Brown had put the scriptures on athe
braille note for us. and she had them inseperate books. You just go in to
the new Testment and the books are listed and you just open the one you want
I really liked that. I also like the fact the new verses were on a new line
Forexample It says Mark 1-2 2 I like that it is faster when you are trying
to find a certain scripture. I don't like it when the next verse just comes
up right in the middle of what you are reading. I like to follow along in
Sunday school so I like to be able to get there quickly. The only thing I
didn't like about her books in the Book of Mormon and the doctrine and
Covenants she didn't have the chapter headings. I don't know why she did
that. Anyway I like to get around quickly and easily in the books Linda
Reeder

----- Original Message -----
From: "Kirt Manwaring" <manwari...@gmail.com>
To: <Blin...@googlegroups.com>

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