Liner

[Bill]

The liner in an aft stateroom is falling down. It goes along the hull and then up to a wooden shelf.
The liner has been held up by Velcro.
Now that it is old, the backing of the liner is falling off and the Velcro won't hold.
Any ideas of how to secure?
Bill


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[Skip Ryan]

New headliner.

Or contact cement AFTER the deteriorated foam backing has been thoroughly removed and the headliner cleaned.

I had the problem and I replaced the headliner.  Instead of a foam backed liner, which deteriorates, I used 1/4" closed cell foam, glued.  The installed vinyl ( no backing).

Skip

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[Mohammad Bayegan]

I had the same problem, I vacuumed all the sponge material on the hull and liner surface, then applied contact cement on both surface after it dried I pressed the liner against the hull. The sponge material is the cause of detachment try to get off as much of it as you can.

B 49 Marengo 

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[James Martin]

The cheap, not so quick fix we used on our 32s5 was to vacuum off all of the remaining foam and apply 3M spray adhesive. The vinyl stayed, but revealed the lumps from the hull's roving. 

The previous owner of our 2003 Jeanneau removed the old vinyl & foam and replaced it with cork tiles, which were then painted. It looks great and should last a long time.

Jim

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[Tom Lucke]

Whatever you decide to do, the foam and the old adhesive have to come off, or the new stuff won't stick (at least for very long).

We used a shop vac to get most of the foam, and then used 3M's General Purpose Adhesive Remover (38983). The stuff comes in spray cans, and you spray it on, let it sit for a short period of time, and then use a rag to scrub the softened glue crumbs off of the hull. In some cases, we found it useful to use a small plastic scrub brush; we also found that the 3M Heavy Duty pads worked well on the toughest spots.  Just be aware that the 38983 is very nasty stuff to work with.  According to the MSDS, it contains:  Methyl Acetate (60%-80%), Solvent Naphtha, Light Aliphatic (10%-20%), Xylene (5% - 10%), Ethylbenzene (<1%). We wore gloves and respirators with VOC cartridges, and kept the cabin ventilated with a fan in the companionway. Its also a good idea to wear eye protection, since when we were working overhead the softened glue crumbs seemed to want to jump into our eyes. 

I tried the "re-stick" approach on a small section in the head, and it lasted only part of one season. So we ended up doing something similar to Skip -- we replaced the old headliner with closed cell foam that we glued on to a fabric called   "Crypton". I have photos and a step by step description of what we did if you decide to go down that path.

Good luck!

[wewag...@gmail.com]

Hi Tom,

Thanks for info.

My liner actually covers an opening where my electrical system wires go to the stern. I am not sure if putting tile in will do the job. 

I would like to see photos.

I am thinking about tacking the lining up since it was originally Velcro to wood shelf.

Maybe brass tacks.

Bill

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[Tom Lucke]

Bill,

Here's a link to the photos of the replacement we did in the V-berth and the head. The captions explain what you are looking at in each photo. 

https://tomlucke.smugmug.com/2014/F345-Headliner-Replacement/n-78L9n3/

Step-by-step as to what we did is below:

Replacing the Headliner: V-berth and Head on a First 345

 

Our 1986 First 345 was suffering from a drooping headliner, a result of the foam portion of the foam-back vinyl deteriorating over time. We did the replacement ourselves, recognizing that this was going to be messy, tedious, fussy work involving lots of hazardous chemicals. Not a simple, fun weekend project!  It definitely requires two pairs of hands in some places, so you’ll need a handy, reliable helper.  The approach we took also required a combination of brute, unskilled labor, sewing skills, and some woodworking ability. The results, though, far exceeded our expectations, so the thought of tackling the aft cabin and the salon next season seems entirely doable. Here’s how we attacked the replacement, and what we learned in the process, more or less step by step.

 

1) Pull down the old headliner.  In the head it means first removing the shelf on the port side, just above the sink, then disconnecting the plumbing to the sink and removing the counter top, because the old headliner ran between these things and the hull. Also requires removing the opening port in the head, because the headliner runs under the interior trim (in the Goiot port design, the interior trim is integral with the port frame, so you don’t have the option of simply removing a trim ring). In the V-berth I found that I had to take down the port and starboard shelves that run along the hull. The forward ends of the shelves are screwed in to the forward bulkhead, and to access the screws I needed to use a small wood chisel to remove two teak plugs on each shelf.  Also had to remove the top of the starboard locker and the door (and associated hardware) of the port hanging locker. We were careful pulling down the old headliner parts, and labeled them with a Sharpie as we went because our plan was to use the old pieces as patterns for the new ones. After you get the headliner down you’ll be left with quite a bit of foam and glue still stuck to the hull.

 

2) Vacuum, brush and vacuum. We used a portable shop-vac to vacuum the remaining foam from the back of the old vinyl, and then to get as much of the remaining foam as possible off the hull. We used a few different tools to help this along, but the best one seemed to be a small, stiff plastic bristle brush.  This is quite an unpleasant job, with sticky deteriorated crumbs of foam adhering to everything, including you. Use a bag in your shop vac, it makes for an easier clean-up. We were very glad to be done with this part.

 

3) Get the glue off.  We tried a bunch of different solvents and approaches before settling on 3M General Purpose Adhesive Remover (38983). The stuff comes in spray cans, and you spray it on, let it sit for a short period of time, and then use a rag to scrub the softened glue crumbs off of the hull. In some cases, we found it useful to grab another of the small plastic scrub brushes; we also found that the 3M Heavy Duty pads worked well on the toughest spots.  Just be aware that the 38983 is very nasty stuff to work with.  According to the MSDS, it contains:  Methyl Acetate (60%-80%), Solvent Naphtha, Light Aliphatic (10%-20%), Xylene (5% - 10%), Ethylbenzene (<1%). We wore gloves and respirators with VOC cartridges, and kept the cabin ventilated with a fan in the companionway. Its also a good idea to wear eye protection, since when we were working overhead the softened glue crumbs seemed to want to jump into our eyes. The remover is pricey, but well worth it – nothing else we found worked as quickly or easily. 

 

4) Make up the fabric parts.  After a lot of searching, we decided to make our own headliner from 1/8 inch closed cell foam (chosen because we expect it to last longer than the original open cell foam) bonded to a fabric call “Crypton”, which was originally designed for use in hospitals, hotels and restaurants.  It is supposed to be highly resistant to mold and bacterial growth, and it can be disinfected with a special cleaning solution. In fact, it’s the only fabric the EPA lists as being capable of being disinfected.  We were able to sew the Crypton on a regular household sewing machine, and then glue the backing on. Here’s a link to the fabric manufacturer. 

http://cryptonfabric.com/contract/

You’ll note that the manufacturer’s price is pretty high, and that the selection is somewhat limited.  After some more internet searching, we purchased the fabric from Decorative Fabrics Direct.  They were helpful, quick, more affordable, and they will also send you samples for a reasonable price.  The samples were extremely helpful to us in deciding among all the options.  Here’s the link to their Crypton page.  Note that they also carry vinyl, outdoor décor, and marine fabric, so there are lots of choices even if you decide against Crypton.

http://www.decorativefabricsdirect.com/Crypton_Fabric_s/265.htm

 

We used the old parts as patterns (don’t forget to add the seam allowances!), and worked on our back porch to lay out the large panels.  It took 5 yards of fabric for the head, and 11 yards for the V-berth.  Note that if we had recovered the original plywood panels instead of replacing them (Step 5) it would have taken 13 yards of fabric in the V-berth.  It’s important to consider the pattern, if any, in the fabric, and to account for matching the repeats where applicable.  Because of the fabrics we chose, we ended up matching only the V-berth, and there we made sure that the fabric matched at the “U” under the coach and that the two sides of the hull matched each other, which was relatively easy because of the short 3.5” repeat.  A longer repeat inevitably means more wasted fabric, more required yardage, and more $$$.  In the head, we decided that a meticulous matching of the pattern over all the various surfaces would both drive us crazy in the doing and not be noticeable in the end, so we didn’t bother. 

 

My wife sewed the seams on the panels (and on the trim strips), and then we glued the panels to the foam using 3M Super Trim Adhesive 08090.   This adhesive is also super-nasty: Methyl Acetate (30-40%), Dimethyl Ether (25-35%), Cyclohexane (10-20%), Toluene (3-7%), Polychloroprene (3-7%), etc.  Working outdoors we didn’t use VOC respirators, but later sticking the panels up inside the boat, we certainly did.  The adhesive is also quite sticky (just the way you want) and is only repositionable if you are very quick to re-spray and peel back while the materials are still wet with the new spray.  After a couple of notable failures, we found that the best way to do the bonding was to put the foam down on a drop cloth, make alignment marks on the foam and the fabric, and then bond no more than about two running feet of panel at a time. For the largest panels, we lined everything up, and then pinned the fabric in place, leaving one end un-pinned. We’d glue that end together, then remove the pins and work our way along the rest of the panel.  After each section was glued, we’d go over it with a rolling pin to ensure we had a good bond.

 

In a couple of cases where we hadn’t been careful enough, we got some bubbles or small waves the fabric. Luckily, we were able to press these out almost entirely with a warm iron, and the waves that remained are not noticeable now that the panels are installed.

 

The one set of panels that we handled differently was the set underneath the turn of the cockpit in the head. The original vinyl was sewn to fit, and we couldn’t sew the foam + Crypton with our home sewing machine. So we sewed the fabric pieces together with the idea that we’d stick the foam in place on the hull first, and then put the fabric on.

 

5) Make up the plywood panels. The original Beneteau design used plywood panels covered with vinyl under the coach roof in the head and the V-berth. We ultimately decided to replace those with teak plywood, stained and varnished to match the rest of the woodwork. As with the headliner, I used the old plywood as patterns to make the teak panels, then test-fitted them prior to staining and varnishing. Boulter Plywood in Sommerville, MA was our supplier.

 

6) Stick the panels in place. We used (more) of the 3M 08090 to stick the bonded panels to the hull. One thing we discovered is that both the order of the panel placement (which panels go up first, second, or third) and the alignment were important, so we adopted the technique of test fitting and marking before gluing.  The panels with raw edges are always covered by other panels or by trim strips, and several were clearly cut larger and then trimmed to fit (especially the trim strips).  For larger panels, we also taped one edge in place before starting.  The head, with mostly smaller panels, was relatively easy.  The one tricky part in the head was getting the fabric fair on the underside of the cockpit coaming. The basic rule we learned is don’t get greedy – that is, don’t try to bond too big an area at once.  That way you can control the size of the mistakes you make, and you may be able to make some small adjustments.  And don’t kid yourself, you will make some mistakes … though probably you’ll be the only one who will notice them.

 

The large panels in the forward cabin were more of a challenge. The U-shaped overhead panel that goes under the deck is pretty big, alignment is fairly critical, and it has to go up first. We used the rods from the cockpit awning to hold it overhead while we fitted it in place. Because of the curve of the hull, we needed to tape some tapered wooden blocks in place so the rods would be stable. On this piece of the headliner, we marked the centerline of the bulkhead, and then followed that line aft to the other edge of the bottom of the “U”. We glued about a 4 inch wide section along that line first, then re-checked the alignment before working on the forward edge where it meets the bulkhead. After that, we worked fore to aft along each side.

 

We also worked fore to aft on the panels on each side of the hull. We dry fit, and created alignment marks with masking tape. One of us held the edge of the panel in place while the other applied glue. Then we worked slowly and carefully to stick the edge down where it joins the forward bulkhead.  From there, we worked aft, gluing about 2 feet of panel at a time to the hull, checking alignment as we went.

 

7) Stick the trim in place. In most places where the headliner meets the cabinets or bulkheads, there are fabric trim strips that cover the joint and the raw edges of the panels. We masked the area with tape, and then used more of the 3M Super Trim Adhesive 08090.  It was generally pretty easy to control the spray, and we found this to be a better choice than any of the other brush-on contact adhesives we tried.   Another nice thing about the Crypton is that any adhesive overspray can be cleaned off with the adhesive remover.

 

8) Replace the parts you pulled out. This was probably the most straightforward part of the operation. The Goiot port had some sort of thin (and badly deteriorated) gasket.  When I re-bedded it, I used “BedIt” Butyl tape from Hamilton Marine.  This stuff is made especially for the marine environment.  Really sticky stuff, flexible, and generally not too bad to work with. You need to be careful not to let it sit in the summer sun, however.  It gets even stickier and difficult to cut.  Here’s the link.

http://store.hamiltonmarine.com/browse.cfm/butyl-tape-bed-it-1-2-x-50-roll-755207-/4,59595.html

Bedded the machine screws with clear marine silicone. Given the design of the port, this is a two-person operation; you need someone in the head to hold the port in place while you lay the trim ring on the outside of the hull and screw it in place.

 

So that’s the story. Total bill for materials was about $1,300. The way that broke down was $330 for the Crytpon fabric, $150 for a roll of the closed-cell foam, $270 for two sheets of teak ply (I’ve got enough left over for the aft cabin, as well), $400 in adhesive and adhesive remover, and another $150 in miscellaneous supplies (VOC cartridges, scrub brushes, bags for the shop-vac, 3M pads, plastic drop sheets, etc.).

 

[Dragon...@aol.com]

Great post! Great outcome!  Congratulations!

 

Thanks,
Dean & Bonnie
s/v Dragonfly
B331 #241
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[Bill]

That was some wonderful job and a terrific explanation.

Thank you.

Bill

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[BARBARA FULTS]

I can only strongly reinforce the advice that these adhesives are very dangerous, especially in a closed in place like the belowdecks of a sailboat. Buy the most severe duty respirator you can and keep it on at all times. A friend of mine took his off halfway through this job because he was hot and later contracted a blood disease, and died. He always suspected that this had caused his problem. Whether accurate or not, these adhesives are nasty and I would feel guilty if I did not pass along a strong recommendation to use a highly effective respirator.
Joe Fults B48 BarbaraAnn3

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------ Original Message ------

[Jim McCann]

 I hired an upholstery shop that does boat work to replace the liner in my 1990 First 32s5. It was a bit more expensive, but they had the right equipment and expertise.

Jim McCann

s/v Down Island

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