First310 Tall Rig

[Pxgallagher]

Are there any First310 Tall Rig owners out there? I bought one as my first boat two years ago (never sailed before) ... I am absolutely loving it but would like to shorten the learning curve (especially for Wednesday night racing).

[Schoen Fitzgerald]

My First 310 is the shallow draft. Carries the US Spars (Z Spars) Z401 7/8 tapered rig. What is it that you are trying to find out?

On Sun, Jul 16, 2017 at 10:47 AM, Pxgallagher <pxgal...@gmail.com> wrote:

Are there any First310 Tall Rig owners out there? I bought one as my first boat two years ago (never sailed before) ... I am absolutely loving it but would like to shorten the learning curve (especially for Wednesday night racing).

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[Patrick Gallagher]

Everything! Two years ago I went from having never sailed to owning a 92 First 310 with the tall rig & deep keel. I'm racing on Wednesday night beer can (jib & main) and I'm really looking to shorten the learning curve.

I do okay straight up but my perf is killing me and I assume with the time I'm giving I should "feel" faster straight up.

Patrick

On Fri, Jul 21, 2017 at 11:08 AM Schoen Fitzgerald <tangoun...@gmail.com> wrote:

My First 310 is the shallow draft. Carries the US Spars (Z Spars) Z401 7/8 tapered rig. What is it that you are trying to find out?

On Sun, Jul 16, 2017 at 10:47 AM, Pxgallagher <pxgal...@gmail.com> wrote:

Are there any First310 Tall Rig owners out there? I bought one as my first boat two years ago (never sailed before) ... I am absolutely loving it but would like to shorten the learning curve (especially for Wednesday night racing).

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[Schoen Fitzgerald]

OK, some basic questions to start with:

1. What PHRF number are they assigning you and where are you sailing?

2. What condition is the bottom?

3. How old are the sails?

4. Have you tuned the rig? Used a tuning guide from a mast manufacturer? Or, from the sail maker?

5. Do you have a Loos Gauge for rig tuning?

6. Do you have experienced or inexperienced crew?

7. How much unnecessary crap (excess weight) are you dragging around the race course? 

Lets start there.

On Fri, Jul 21, 2017 at 6:34 PM, Patrick Gallagher <pxgal...@gmail.com> wrote:

Everything! Two years ago I went from having never sailed to owning a 92 First 310 with the tall rig & deep keel. I'm racing on Wednesday night beer can (jib & main) and I'm really looking to shorten the learning curve.

I do okay straight up but my perf is killing me and I assume with the time I'm giving I should "feel" faster straight up.

Patrick

On Fri, Jul 21, 2017 at 11:08 AM Schoen Fitzgerald <tangoun...@gmail.com> wrote:

My First 310 is the shallow draft. Carries the US Spars (Z Spars) Z401 7/8 tapered rig. What is it that you are trying to find out?

On Sun, Jul 16, 2017 at 10:47 AM, Pxgallagher <pxgal...@gmail.com> wrote:

Are there any First310 Tall Rig owners out there? I bought one as my first boat two years ago (never sailed before) ... I am absolutely loving it but would like to shorten the learning curve (especially for Wednesday night racing).

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[Bill Jarvis]

I would add how often is the bottom cleaned?

 

Bill

 

From: benetea...@googlegroups.com [mailto:benetea...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Schoen Fitzgerald
Sent: Friday, July 21, 2017 10:11 PM
To: benetea...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: {Beneteau Owners} First310 Tall Rig

 

OK, some basic questions to start with:

1. What PHRF number are they assigning you and where are you sailing?

2. What condition is the bottom?

3. How old are the sails?

4. Have you tuned the rig? Used a tuning guide from a mast manufacturer? Or, from the sail maker?

5. Do you have a Loos Gauge for rig tuning?

6. Do you have experienced or inexperienced crew?

7. How much unnecessary crap (excess weight) are you dragging around the race course? 

 

Lets start there.

On Fri, Jul 21, 2017 at 6:34 PM, Patrick Gallagher <pxgal...@gmail.com> wrote:

Everything! Two years ago I went from having never sailed to owning a 92 First 310 with the tall rig & deep keel. I'm racing on Wednesday night beer can (jib & main) and I'm really looking to shorten the learning curve.

 

I do okay straight up but my perf is killing me and I assume with the time I'm giving I should "feel" faster straight up.

 

Patrick

 

 

 

On Fri, Jul 21, 2017 at 11:08 AM Schoen Fitzgerald <tangoun...@gmail.com> wrote:

My First 310 is the shallow draft. Carries the US Spars (Z Spars) Z401 7/8 tapered rig. What is it that you are trying to find out?

 

On Sun, Jul 16, 2017 at 10:47 AM, Pxgallagher <pxgal...@gmail.com> wrote:

Are there any First310 Tall Rig owners out there? I bought one as my first boat two years ago (never sailed before) ... I am absolutely loving it but would like to shorten the learning curve (especially for Wednesday night racing).

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[Mike Noble]

Yes!

In addition to what you are dragging around the course.

--Milner

Sent from my iPhone

[Patrick Gallagher]

1. Handicap is 144, non-spin is 153.

2. Bottom is freshly painted (sanded, new VC17 before the 2016 summer season).

3. Sails are 2015, but they are not "race sails"

4. I did not tune the rig, nor would I have any idea how to. I had the mast pulled down for inspection last winter so I am counting on the local shop for tuning.

5. No Loos Guage ....I'll be Googling that tonight.

6. Split crew ... two with experience, three with none 

7. Excess weight .... probably too much.  Water tank filled; oven; ...what else.

As for the other responses. ..... last year we got the bottom cleaned three times in the season (which runs mid-May to September).

We are using a foresail (furling) with a UV cover, etc. We have two older sails that we haven't tried yet ... but will.

So, should I be reading up on tuning?

[Bill Jarvis]

Patrick,

 

It is very important to get the rig tuned properly. The first thing is to be sure that the mast is set up in the center of the boat is aligned with the keel in order to get the boat to perform equally on both tacks. Then the rigging tensions need to be set to match the mast pre-bend to your sail shape in the wind strength you will be sailing in. Finally you need to get the fore and aft balance set to minimize the weather helm and hence the drag on the boat when sailing.

 

It’s not difficult but sometimes seems counter intuitive. Best to get a good rigger to do it for you and to explain to you exactly what he is doing and why.

 

The Loos gage is simply a tool to measure tension in the stays. It does not help unless you understand what you are looking for. It is very possible to have the tensions at the right values but simultaneously to have the mast in totally the wrong place!

 

Bill

 

 

 

From: benetea...@googlegroups.com [mailto:benetea...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Patrick Gallagher
Sent: Saturday, July 22, 2017 11:59 PM
To: benetea...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: {Beneteau Owners} First310 Tall Rig

 

 

 

1. Handicap is 144, non-spin is 153.

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[S/V Slainte; First 310]

Here is a Guide that Selden puts out that can give you a lot of insight into mast tuning. Although  it is specific to Selden a great deal of it is applicable to all masts so will give you some insight into tuning.

http://www.seldenmast.com/files/1456145028/595-540-E.pdf

Check the rig tune or have an experienced rigger, or knowledgeable other local racer do it for you and explain how  to go about it. Also, if you have new sails, your sailmaker should have some tuning information available and if they are local should be available to help you set up the boat and if they are good at their business should be able to go sail with you to help assess the setup and teach you.

Doesn't sound to me like you have any obvious equipment issues and you don't seem to be dragging around any more excess weight than most of us. The number they have you at does not appear to be terrible. Some areas, Chesapeake for example, give allowances in PHRF for a roller furler setup versus a hanked on sail which will have a better shape.

On Sunday, July 16, 2017 at 10:47:56 AM UTC-5, Pxgallagher wrote:

[Hal Mueller]

First time posting, new owner of a 2007 322. But these notes go back to my days of somewhat serious racing as crew on a 505 (one-design trapeze dinghy).

1. Swap around. Crew for one of the more successful skippers. Get another skipper to join you as coach/observer or guest skipper. What's different about operating styles?

2. Practice and measure. Go out one afternoon with the plan of doing 100 tacks. Or 100 jibes. Or 25 tacks. How much boat speed do you lose? How long does it take you to regain boat speed? How low should you point for optimal acceleration after a tack? What can you do to make things smoother?

3. Mark your rig: sheets, turning lock positions, vang. Go out in a steady breeze and tweak the settings for a single point of sail. Chart (or plot!) your speed vs rig settings. Most of us tend to trim too hard.

4. Close-hauled: what's your fastest apparent wind angle? What trim? Most of us tend to pinch when we're starting out. Closest to the wind doesn't mean best VMG upwind.

5. Are your results symmetrical (port/starboard)? If not, look closely at rig tuning.

Hal

[Patrick Gallagher]

Thanks Hal - this is really great stuff! Practice that I can apply, I love it! I am still a bit gun shy on rig setting (as in "chart your speed vs rig setting"). I have some downtime this week so will be doing some studying on rig setting (which may lead to more questions if you are open to it).

Patrick

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[Schoen Fitzgerald]

Good suggestions, from Hal. Practice does make perfect.

Patrick, assuming that the boat is set up correctly, good bottom, keel and rudder, mast is tuned correctly and the sails are good, the only thing that's going to make you faster is seat time and practice with the crew. Of course, you have to know what to be looking for. Impact of changes in sail controls, impact of wind shifts and velocity changes. It doesn't come overnight. Help figuring that out is going to come from lots of reading and/or having other experienced drivers and crew on board to observe what you are doing right and wrong, crewing for others and having your head on a swivel to take in everything that you can and if possible finding a relatively similar speed boat to go out and sail against in a non race condition so you can sail close with them and gauge speed and what differences the changes in sail control make (a sparring partner/trial horse) . I've been racing since 1980, first in the J24 for 30 years and for the last five on and off in the 310. I still learn something new everyday and am still trying to get the 310 to sail as well as I think it should. Coming from the J24 into the 310 there is a lot to learn about how this boat performs and to compensate for its relative weaknesses, weight, shallow draft (in my case), etc. It's a good boat and a relatively fast boat but it's not a sports car or a planning dingy.

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[S/V Slainte; First 310]

Here are a few other thoughts:

Early on, I found that a copy of the book "Sail Power" By Wallace Ross was invaluable. Much of it, at the time, did not apply to my "little J24" but the book covers a lot and taught me a lot about trim and sail shape. Also, Dave Perry's "Winning in One Designs" I found very helpful. And, Stuart Walkers books on Tactics. You might also look into the courses put on by NorthU (www.NorthU.com). The books and DVD's available from them that accompany the courses are very good. You might also look into putting on a NorthU class at your location. My son organized one of those here when he was about 12 and we flew Bill Gladstone in to do a two or three day program. Had him stay at our house to save on costs.  All it took was figuring out what the cost was going to be and rounding up enough people that wanted to learn from a Pro to ante up a course fee that covered the cost of doing it. We were able to set it up so that we knew we could cover costs before we committed to have the program. This program was applicable to and was attended by sailors of all levels of experience so the appeal was broad across the spectrum. They also do webinars which 20 years ago were not an option hence we brought the teacher to our place. The other upside of bringing them in is that is that if there is time available or planned, you may be able to get out on the water with them often with them in a chase boat observing and commenting - we've done that with several sail makers over the years .

On Sunday, July 16, 2017 at 10:47:56 AM UTC-5, Pxgallagher wrote:

[S/V Slainte; First 310]

Where is it that you sail? And, in what kind of wind/sea conditions are you "normally" sailing.

On Sunday, July 16, 2017 at 10:47:56 AM UTC-5, Pxgallagher wrote:

[S/V Slainte; First 310]

Here is a link to Sailboat Owners Forum that you might find useful: https://forums.sailboatowners.com/index.php?threads/beneteau-first-310-tuning-help.107916/

On Sunday, July 16, 2017 at 10:47:56 AM UTC-5, Pxgallagher wrote:

[Patrick Gallagher]

Thanks to all. This has been great help ... 

 

S/V Slainte - I sail in Lake Michigan, about 35 miles north of Chicago. Conditions vary greatly, but in the summer for race nights (Wednesday's at 18:40) it seems that is consistently the worst time to sail - low wind (6 to 8 knots). Later in the season, as fall approaches it gets better at 12 to 15 knots. Otherwise, I have a flexible hours so we generally go out on a moments notice if it is 15 to 25.  We will also race a few shorter "offshore" races, usually the under 60 races.  We do run a spin (and my wife and I have successfully learned that two-handed) but we are racing on Wednesday nights as jib & main (for now).

Thanks again to all.

Patrick

--

[S/V Slainte; First 310]

Out of Waukegan? I grew up in the SW suburbs, LaGrange Park. Only experience in Lake Michigan has been J24 North Americans and a Mac Race. My 310 does not seem to perform well in light winds. Pick it up to 10 and above and the boat does a lot better. But, I've never liked light air and probably don't do as well as I should in that condition. I looked at a 310 deep keel boat in Racine before I settled on my short keel version that was located about two hours from me. I needed the short draft because our lake level is not terribly deep and fluctuates so the short keel was a better option. At pool lake level, I have about 4 feet of water under the keel and depending on the year, it's not uncommon for us to drop 2-3 feet by fall before the fall rains bring it back up. Our lake is a local water supply so the lawn watering in the summer impacts us quite a bit and the evaporation rate is pretty high with the high winds and temperatures we get. I'd have preferred the deep fin keel but was concerned that it would shorten my time in the water in some years. Wife and I can double hand the Asymetrical Chute but the symmetrical is more than she wants to deal with without a full crew. Our full crew is 5-6 but I have raced it single-hand a few times - was pretty busy! ;-)

Hope you find the materials referenced and commentary useful. You can always touch base and I'll be happy to provide you any information I can.

Regards,

Fitzgerald

S/V Slainte

On Thursday, July 27, 2017 at 8:57:16 AM UTC-5, Pxgallagher wrote:

Thanks to all. This has been great help ... 

 

S/V Slainte - I sail in Lake Michigan, about 35 miles north of Chicago. Conditions vary greatly, but in the summer for race nights (Wednesday's at 18:40) it seems that is consistently the worst time to sail - low wind (6 to 8 knots). Later in the season, as fall approaches it gets better at 12 to 15 knots. Otherwise, I have a flexible hours so we generally go out on a moments notice if it is 15 to 25.  We will also race a few shorter "offshore" races, usually the under 60 races.  We do run a spin (and my wife and I have successfully learned that two-handed) but we are racing on Wednesday nights as jib & main (for now).

Thanks again to all.

Patrick

On Wed, Jul 26, 2017 at 11:36 AM, S/V Slainte; First 310 <tangoun...@gmail.com> wrote:

Here is a link to Sailboat Owners Forum that you might find useful: https://forums.sailboatowners.com/index.php?threads/beneteau-first-310-tuning-help.107916/

On Sunday, July 16, 2017 at 10:47:56 AM UTC-5, Pxgallagher wrote:

Are there any First310 Tall Rig owners out there? I bought one as my first boat two years ago (never sailed before) ... I am absolutely loving it but would like to shorten the learning curve (especially for Wednesday night racing).

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[Patrick Gallagher]

 Sorry for the delay. Yes! Out of Waukegan.   

[Wing Jammin]

I came across this group while googling First 310 Tall rig. I did not know this group existed. A little history on my boat. It is a shoal draft standard rig. Serial #025. We have been racing her since 2003. We have been fairly successful in our racing although there have been challenges through the years. I am looking at going to the 3 foot taller masts that is on the First 310R. Has anyone installed a tall mast on a shoal draft boat? I have also found that in winds less than 10 knots the boat is sluggish. Going to the taller mast should help in the lighter wind but also may create more problems. It is a fairly expensive experiment. If it works then it would be great. If it is not going to work it would be nice to know before spending the time and money on it. 

Thanks,    

[Patrick Gallagher]

I have the Tall Rig, but also the deeper keel so not sure I can help. We do find that she is sluggish in winds less than 10 knots unless we have a fair number of bodies on the boat.

How much will your project run you? Also, where are you sailing your 310?

Patrick

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[William Pribe]

We sail in western Lake Erie out of North Cape Yacht Club. Round numbers with the new mast and new main and 155 sail I am looking at 15K to start with. Adding more sail inventory from there. 

Bill

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Bill Pribe

2017 I-LYA Trustee

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Past Commodore NCYC 2010

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[Bill Jarvis]

If you are going contemplate a mast change then you should consider a keel change so that you can maintain righting moment

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[Bill Jarvis]

If you are contemplating a mast change the you need to consider a keel change to offset the in righting moment otherwise you’ll be way over powered in even moderate winds.

 

If you look at that whole package then it could most likely be achieved by buying a tall mast boat and selling your SD.

 

Just a thought.

 

Bill

 

From: benetea...@googlegroups.com [mailto:benetea...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Wing Jammin
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2017 2:59 PM
To: Beneteau Owners
Subject: {Beneteau Owners} Re: First310 Tall Rig

 

I came across this group while googling First 310 Tall rig. I did not know this group existed. A little history on my boat. It is a shoal draft standard rig. Serial #025. We have been racing her since 2003. We have been fairly successful in our racing although there have been challenges through the years. I am looking at going to the 3 foot taller masts that is on the First 310R. Has anyone installed a tall mast on a shoal draft boat? I have also found that in winds less than 10 knots the boat is sluggish. Going to the taller mast should help in the lighter wind but also may create more problems. It is a fairly expensive experiment. If it works then it would be great. If it is not going to work it would be nice to know before spending the time and money on it. 

--

[Mike Noble]

Hi- I have a First 30e and I suggest that fitting a folding prop will be the single biggest improvement you can do on that boat to improve boats peed in light winds. 

— Milner

Sent from my iPhone

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[William Pribe]

The standard 310 has a deep keel and standard mast. The SD keel is 1 foot shorter and weighs 600 lbs more with the standard rig. The 310R it has the deep keel and the 3ft taller mast. Righting moment should be close to the same. With sailing in the western end of  Lake Erie some years a deep keel can be a problem. Finding a deep keel is easier said than done also. Unless there is a deep keel 310 that has been a victim of a hurricane you can't buy one. 

Bill  

On Mon, Dec 18, 2017 at 3:32 PM, Bill Jarvis <bjar...@suddenlink.net> wrote:

If you are contemplating a mast change the you need to consider a keel change to offset the in righting moment otherwise you’ll be way over powered in even moderate winds.

 

If you look at that whole package then it could most likely be achieved by buying a tall mast boat and selling your SD.

 

Just a thought.

 

Bill

 

From: beneteau-owners@googlegroups.com [mailto:beneteau-owners@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Wing Jammin
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2017 2:59 PM
To: Beneteau Owners
Subject: {Beneteau Owners} Re: First310 Tall Rig

 

I came across this group while googling First 310 Tall rig. I did not know this group existed. A little history on my boat. It is a shoal draft standard rig. Serial #025. We have been racing her since 2003. We have been fairly successful in our racing although there have been challenges through the years. I am looking at going to the 3 foot taller masts that is on the First 310R. Has anyone installed a tall mast on a shoal draft boat? I have also found that in winds less than 10 knots the boat is sluggish. Going to the taller mast should help in the lighter wind but also may create more problems. It is a fairly expensive experiment. If it works then it would be great. If it is not going to work it would be nice to know before spending the time and money on it. 

 

Thanks,    

On Sunday, July 16, 2017 at 11:47:56 AM UTC-4, Pxgallagher wrote:

Are there any First310 Tall Rig owners out there? I bought one as my first boat two years ago (never sailed before) ... I am absolutely loving it but would like to shorten the learning curve (especially for Wednesday night racing).

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[Patrick Gallagher]

Heck, you should just buy my boat!

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[Dean Forbis]

or mine (a 2003 first 36.7)  with a tall mast and AND deep keel AND racing sails... 

[William Pribe]

I have been looking for a First 33.7, with a 6 ft keel in the Great Lakes. Have not been able to find one.

 We have put a lot of work into this boat over the years. The bottom, keel and rudder have all been fared.  All the winches have been replaced and up sized. New sheet stoppers and deck organizers. Flex o fold prop. I have the the boat in the condition I want it and the size is right. We are normally a JAM B boat. We are seeing fewer and fewer B boats coming out on the weekends to race. That is moving me up to the JAM A boats. In the heavier winds we can compete. In the lighter winds they just ghost away. That is why I am looking at the extra sail area with the mast. 

Bill  

[Brian W]

Check out this blog entry. Note all the additional equipment that apparently comes standard with the "R".

https://forums.sailboatowners.com/index.php?threads/first-310-310r-opinions.1463/

Given the additional expense and the uncertainty of some serious modifications to your standard F310, why not consider finding a 310R instead?

Brian

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[Swanson Manuel]

--------------------------------------------
On Mon, 12/18/17, Patrick Gallagher <pxgal...@gmail.com> wrote:

Subject: Re: {Beneteau Owners} Re: First310 Tall Rig
To: benetea...@googlegroups.com
Date: Monday, December 18, 2017, 10:57 PM

Heck, you
should just buy my boat!

On Mon, Dec 18, 2017 at

2:55 PM, William Pribe <wpr...@gmail.com>
wrote:
The standard 310 has a deep keel and standard
mast. The SD keel is 1 foot shorter and weighs 600 lbs more
with the standard rig. The 310R it has the deep keel and the
3ft taller mast. Righting moment should be close to the
same. With sailing in the western end of  Lake Erie some
years a deep keel can be a problem. Finding a deep keel is
easier said than done also. Unless there is a deep keel 310
that has been a victim of a hurricane you can't buy
one. 
Bill  

On Mon, Dec 18, 2017 at

3:32 PM, Bill Jarvis <bjar...@suddenlink.net>
wrote:
If you are contemplating a mast
change the you need to consider a keel change to offset the
in righting moment otherwise you’ll be way over powered in
even moderate winds. If you look at that whole package
then it could most likely be achieved by buying a tall mast
boat and selling your SD. Just a
thought. Bill
 From: beneteau-owners@googlegroups.c
om [mailto:beneteau-owners@google
groups.com] On Behalf Of Wing Jammin
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2017 2:59
PM
To: Beneteau Owners
Subject: {Beneteau Owners} Re: First310

Tall Rig I came across this group

For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/op
tout.




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Bill

Pribe2017 I-LYA Trustee

2017 AYC Sail Fleet Captain
Past
Commodore NCYC 2010

419-349-7353 Cell
419-885-7277
Home
419-866-9050
Work

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eni in intreg secolul al XIX-lea Casa si mosia lor de la Cernauca au

[UWE Mewes]

I raced a F305 for many years. Found the "Back stay adjuster" is a very powerful tool to adjust for changing conditions. One of the first things I did was replacing the "wichard wheel". It was just too difficult (slow) to operate with one hand while steering. The ability to really slacken the rig, combined with induced heel will keep the boat moving up wind in super light air.

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