Batteries

[w]

Looks like I'm in the market to replace my batteries. I have a couple of questions for the group. First,  what kind of batteries? Flooded or Gel? and what configuration? Parallel or dedicated house and starter? Currently I'm using flooded in  parallel hooked up to a on-shore charger all the time when away. I mostly day cruise or short overnight anchorages but thinking about longer cruising. ( aren't we all) lol

Jim

The Margie-Paul (31 -81)  

Punta Gorda, Fl 

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[Chris Windeler]

I used Gels but if you do you need to change your charger settings. 0.1 volt too high on charging can be a problem so for most people I do not recommend them.

I suggest you use AGM group 27 deep cycle batteries. Do not recommend combination batteries (advertised as deep cycle starting batteries). I carried 5 batteries on Sea Wind. I set up some diods so that whenever the engine ran all 5 batteries would automatically charge. When in the marina only the batteries on the selected battery switch would charge. Two in parallel on switch one and two in parallel on switch 2. I had a third battery on a separate switch so if I screwed up and ran down both sets of house batteries I could still start the engine. I use switch 1 on odd days and switch 2 on even days.

I did a lot of cruising and anchored out. I also had a high electrical load: Hydraulic autopilot, refrigeration, I even rigged up a 5000 watt home air conditioner I could run on my inverter from the batteries over night. My experience is that one group 27 AGM, Gel or wet battery will start without a problem the 30 to 35 hp diesel engine. I did it for years. My batteries lasted 5+ years one set was 7+years old. I would not buy a starting battery. Its of no value. 

Chris

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[w]

Thanks Chris, 

If I understand you have 5 of these type batteries? 

http://www.amazon.com/Exide-XMC-31-MEGACYCLE-AGM-200-Maintenance/dp/B003FFVI8A/ref=sr_1_9?ie=UTF8&qid=1433081169&sr=8-9&keywords=group+27+marine+battery

Jim

Sent from AOL Mobile Mail

[Chris Windeler]

Times have changed since the last time I bought batteries they were about $200 for Group 27, Ouch. 

You want to do a electrical power audit of what you plan to use. Go heavier as you always underestimate. Also you only draw the battery down 1/2 way. Ads say you can draw them all the way down but you will destroy regular batteries like in your car and reduce the life of deep cycle batteries. I would not run the battery down under 11 volts from a fully charged one of 12.6 volts. (I am doing this form memory and may be off.)

¹Repetitive reserve capacity: When comparing marine batteries, look at the RRC rating, which is the battery's ability to withstand significantly more discharge/recharge cycles and still deliver most of its original full capacity. The higher the RRC rating, the more the battery can be completely drained and fully recharged.

It should be understood that like most "marine" batteries it is not a true "deep-cycle" battery and should not be discharged more than 50% on a regular basis. It safely provides 50 AH for a trolling motor and not the 100 AH as one might expect.

 It's important to get a version of this battery that is relatively new. If you are purchasing multiple batteries, you want them manufactured at the same time (there is a label on the left side of this battery that tells you the month and year). Don't buy old batteries that have been sitting around in the store.

As for the Exide batteries in Amazon I could not find enough details or specifications.

Chris

[kei...@comcast.net]

Jim, Chris and all,

Batteries are my specialty. I give seminars each year in February in Georgetown, Exumas and have been helping cruisers with battery decisions for 30 years now. I agree with a lot of what Chris says but the idea of breaking your house bank into 2 is not one of them. The larger the bank the more efficient the charging system can be if you are deeply (up to 50% of capacity) discharging them on a regular basis.

But lets be real here. I am talking about liveaboard cruisers, not people who weekend or two week cruise and then are back tied up to a dock and have shorepower. That is a totally different useage with different answers. Also cost comes into play.

I talk for an hour on this subject so I am just going to give you a taste of that.

If cost is a factor you can not beat 6 volt golf cart size batteries. Period. I just took 6 Trojan T-105's that are 7 years old, tired but still working, and installed them in my Allmand to see how long they will last. I replaced them on my Saga with Lifeline AGM golf cart batteries. Not a cost effective change but Lifeline wanted me to try their batteries and to be honest, I was curious enough in my advanced age to want to as well. At over double the price of the Trojan wet cell T-105's obviously price alone won't support the change since they would have to last 15 to 20 years to equal the overall cost of good wet cell golf cart batteries.

I don't recommend group 27 or 31 size 12 volt batteries because their cell construction, by definition, must be weaker than the much larger cells found in 6 volt golf cart or 12 volt 8-D batteries which are physically much bigger. On the other hand if you don't have the space or don't want to make the custom battery boxes that are required for most golf cart installation's then the group 27 or 31's are the next best thing but you will have to accept a shorter lifespan (4 to 5 years vs 7 plus for the larger cell types)

If you want the best price for Trojan T-105's I highly recommend Dale at Tee Time Golf Cars at Ormond Beach, FL, phone 386-615-1980. His current price is $96 per battery assuming you have a core to exchange. Obviously if he is located too far away to drive there, transportation costs factors in. I don't believe shipping heavy wet cells is practical unless you can get them before the acid has been installed and ship the acid separately.

A plus for AGM's or Gels is they can be laid on their sides to fit tight spaces although I try to avoid this. Also no worries keeping up with a water addition schedule because they are sealed and don't require it. Another plus is for the weekend warrior who spends more time with the boat not in use, these batteries have a much lower self discharge rate than wet cells that often translates into a longer lifespan when used in this manner.

As Chris pointed out, Gels are very fussy with their charging rate. Anything over 14.1 volts will greatly shorten or terminate their life span. AGM's can use virtually the same charging rate as wet cells though an Equalization charge should be used either as a last resort or at least very sparingly to avoid shortening their life.

Finally, most batteries die from systematic undercharging. Every battery, no matter what type, does not respond well to being partially discharged for any lengthy ( more than a matter of days) period of time. This last fact I have found to be most startling to even the most experienced of cruisers. It is one of the reasons I am such a big proponent of solar and /or wind as supplemental charging system that can efficiently charge that last 10 to 15 percent of charge that occurs at such low amperage. To determine if a battery is fully charged, assuming it is relatively new or in good shape, it should take no more than 1.5 % of its 20 hour rating to hold it at 14.5 volts, assuming the battery is at 77 degrees F. That target voltage goes down by .15 volts for every 9 degrees of battery temperature above that target and up by the same amount for every 9 degrees below 77 degrees F. And obviously Gel batteries have a lower target of less than 1 % at 14.1 volts at 77 degrees F.

I apologize for the length of this response but I felt shortening it was too likely to result in miss-understandings. 

If there is interest and travel time is reasonable I would be happy to do one of my talks for an Allmand Owners get together.

Keith on Camelot

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From: "Chris Windeler" <cwin...@mac.com>
To: all...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sunday, May 31, 2015 11:25:07 AM
Subject: Re: [Allmand] Batteries

[John Rudio]

Keith

Great information. As I was reading you message our 1981 original inverter just went out. I've checked the fuses and they are good but the light on the front of the old Crown Converter / Rartan does not come on. Not sure size but appears time to replace. Inside is very corroded. 

Do you have a suggestion as what I need to do to replace. 

Thanks much

John

Business 31 

Sent from my iPhone

[w]

Keith, Chris, 

Thank you guys, a lot of great information. Which is the best thing about this group. Options! 

I'm more of the weekend warrior type with hopes to be gone 2 weeks cruising at some point in my life. So most days my boat stays in the marina on shore power. For that reason I'm leaning toward Chris's suggestion of using Group 27 AGMs for my use. I'm hoping to get away with just 3 batteries. When I'm on the hook (1-2 nights) I don't use a lot of power off my batteries. There are so many alternatives today to charge for lighting, playing music and keeping my beverages cold. 

Keith I feel I could really learn a lot from one of your talks if your down my way please let me know. Do you have a Podcast of your talks?! My boat is in Punta Gorda but I actually live in Orlando so Ormand Beach is not that far.   My batteries are stored under my back berth port side. Fair amount of room but I have no idea how big golf cart batteries are? Will they fit? 

Jim

Sent from AOL Mobile Mail

[kei...@comcast.net]

John & Jim,

I haven't but I know some have taped my talks. I have always done it in a very informal manner. Each talk is different because I start off by asking the audience one at a time what questions they want answered and then base my talk around that. Even though I usually get 80 to 100 cruisers at the talk most of the people want to hear the same thing so usually 15 to 20 questions gets us started. With such a complicated subject I have to be careful I don't lose any more then can't be helped. This year someone brought a guy who actually had a Phd in battery design so I was quite pleased when he raved about the talk.

Now to your questions. Inverter size and type is very dependent on what equipment is on the boat, how big the battery bank is and what you are looking to run off of it.

At the time I ran my dealership (1995 to 2004) I was a big fan of the Heart Freedom Inverter Chargers. The Freedom 20 was rated as a 100 Amp battery charger and very conservatively as a 2000 watt inverter. It was a modified sine wave inverter which means occasionally a digital controlled piece of equipment (like a few microwaves such as Panasonic and most newer electric blankets) wouldn't run off of it. Still if properly installed and used I have had far less failures with them compared with most other equipment I have used. The Freedom 10 was rated at exactly half the output of the 20 and might be a better fit for your needs if you can find one on Ebay. Some of the newer Xantrex versions don't have both an invert and a charge function, don't have transformers, or have had significant reliability problems. One service tech showed me a room full of the newer yellow versions that he said once they failed, they were junk. They weren't built to be repaired. And of course you know what country built them?

Not made in the USA.

Jim,

My batteries are in the same place on my Allmand. I built two fiberglass battery boxes that fit in that space. The aft most one holds two 6 volt golf cart batteries and a group 31 starter battery for emergency. The forward one holds six golf cart batteries. I used to cable the 8 together in series by pairs and the four pairs in parallel to make a 900 Amp battery bank. Now I only use the six gc battery box for a 675 Amp battery bank.

Each Trojan T-105 is 10.375 inches long, 7.125 inches wide, and a little over 11 inches high depending on which type of terminal you order. My experience has shown that those factory specs are just a smidgen bigger than the actual batteries. Each battery weighs 62 lbs. Unless you have a need for so much capacity a good beginning might be just 4 batteries to give you 450 Amps based on the 20 hour rating. 

I always recommend at least a minimum of 1/4 inch or more of air spacing around each battery. Two paint stirrers totaling 1/4 inch in thickness would be that minimum. So allowing for the spacers a plywood box (use the west system to seal the inside) that had an ID of 21 inches by 14.75 inches would hold 4 batteries very nicely. I would build the inside height to 11.5 inches to allow room for cabling. I pulled out the drawer unit at the front of the berth to allow me access to slide the finished box in, then re-installed the drawer unit and trim.

I will be in Vero Beach till the 24th of June. Then I go back to CT to work on getting my Allmand back in the water, hoping the used 24 HP Universal will work.

Hope this info is helpful. All my friends know not to mention batteries less they have plenty of time to spare for the resulting discussion. Oh well.

Keith

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From: "'w' via Allmand" <all...@googlegroups.com>
To: all...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sunday, May 31, 2015 8:16:17 PM
Subject: Re: [Allmand] Batteries

[John Rudio]

Keith

Once again thank you very much for the helpful info. I jumped deeper into my charging issue; which centers around my original Raritan shore power converter. It has been charging my batteries since 1981. It has been a very reliable piece of equipment until this week. Do you have experience with this product. I've found Raritan's phone number and have the original manual. I am looking to replace it. It takes shore power and converts it to 12vdc and charges the batteries.  I am afraid Raritan no longer makes the product. Any suggestion would be most appreciated. I am thinking it is more than just a charger. 

Also I have a small gas generator rated at 2500 peak watts. What is the best way to tie into the boat. Can I connect it to my shore power connection from the generator without hurting my electrical system? It has at inverter with 120vac output. 

Thanks for the info. I'm also looking to upgrade my batteries I hope at the end of the sailing season. 

Best regards,

John

Sent from my iPhone

[kei...@comcast.net]

John,

I don't have experience with the Raritan charger but I sincerely doubt it is capable of reaching the charging levels I described. It is probably a ferro resonant charger as was common in that day. Today's chargers are way more capable than those. Doesn't mean you have to chuck it immediately but when I got new batteries I would replace that as well.

Without knowing the specs on your gas generator, if it is anything like the Honda 2000 you can connect it to your shorepower inlet. However you would still need a working battery charger to convert that 110 volt AC to 12 volt DC to charge your batteries.

Keith

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From: "John Rudio" <johnp...@gmail.com>
To: all...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sunday, May 31, 2015 11:54:33 PM

[Chris Windeler]

I had a raritan charger that came with the boat in 1982. It is a ferro resonant charger. Mine died about 1998+/- and I replaced it with a 1000kw Heart Freedom Inverter Charger that preformed well with no problems. If I was to do it again I would have gotten the 2000kw unit. I also suggest you get the controller that is designed for that unit.

I did not want a Honda Generator on the boat because I did not want to carry any gasoline. I only carried a 1 gal container for my 3 hp outboard for the dink on deck.

Chris

[Chris Windeler]

Thats watts not KW.

Chris

On Jun 1, 2015, at 7:13 AM, Chris Windeler wrote:

I had a raritan charger that came with the boat in 1982. It is a ferro resonant charger. Mine died about 1998+/- and I replaced it with a 1000w Heart Freedom Inverter Charger that preformed well with no problems. If I was to do it again I would have gotten the 2000w unit. I also suggest you get the controller that is designed for that unit.

[John Rudio]

Keith

Thank you very much for the reply. I'm looking into it today. West Marine was no help. I will let everyone know what I find. 

Thanks again. I would love to hear you lecture. Please let us know when you are doing it again. 

John

Sent from my iPhone

[John Rudio]

Chris 

Thank you very much. I've seen several types of chargers/converters 

at West Marine. Some very pricey!  On the Raritan it has terminals for engine ignition wires along with AC shore leads. When you bought your replacement how how did you wire the ignition?  I looked at two at West and they didn't have that feature. 

From what I've read in the Raritan manual the ignition feature allows you to run shore power while running the engine. Is that the same with your replacement?  

Thanks 

John

Sent from my iPhone

[John Rudio]

Chris

Is the controller required to allow the motor alternator charge the batteries while the engine is running? The Ranitan had this feature. 

Thanks

John

Sent from my iPhone

[Chris Windeler]

If my memory serves me right there are 3 levels of control. Each one costing a little more and doing more. And yes it will control you alternator, and charge your batteries.

I look at Defenders and West Marine and did not find Heart Inverters listed. I guess they got bought out and the name changed.

Chris

[John Rudio]

Thanks again Chris. I will let you know how it goes. 

John 
Sent from my iPhone

[Jim]

Keith, 

I finally got over to my boat this weekend to check out my battery situation. I currently have 2 Seahawk 770 flooded grp 27 in parallel and 1 West Marine 650 grp 24 starting battery. I also have a fairly new Guest Pro series charger. This set came with the boat I purchased 5 years ago and has worked well for my purpose.  Like I said before I currently don't need a lot of amps as I have no refrig or AC away from the Marina and only go over night on weekends. My future might include an small 12V refrig and going away for 5 days without shorepower. 

I'm looking at purchasing 2 Trojan 27TMX flooded batteries for house and a Trojan 27TMX for a start battery. Will that work ? 

Also what do think of the Trojan Hydro system ? 

Jim

81 Allmand 31

Punta Gorda 

Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 1, 2015, at 12:21 AM, kei...@comcast.net wrote:

[gas...@carvercomputerservices.com]

Jim.

Tom Gasser for Port Charlotte.  The AbacoMyst moored at my home in South Gulf Cove of Port Charlotte is a 1984 Allmand 35.

Which marina in PG housed the Margie-Paul?

Shoot me a email gas...@carvercomputerservices.com

Tom

[kei...@comcast.net]

Jim,

I just realized I wiped out my response to you instead of sending it so here goes again.

It sounds like the current arrangement is working well for you. However when you add that small frige you are going to find out that most of the conversions on the market draw between 5 and 6 Amps per hour when running. Depending on the outside temperature and condition of your insulation you should expect it to run between 30 and 50 percent of the time over a 24 hour day. That means a draw of 40 to 70 Amps per day for each of the 5 days you expect to be cruising for. That is way beyond what any 2 group 27 batteries can handle without charging during that time, assuming no other source of away from the dock charging exists.

You could investigate a larger engine alternator and plan on running your engine every day or two for several hours to keep up. However that is often not as easy as it first seems for small engines like we have in our Allmand's. Diesels don't like to be run at very low loads and HO alternators don't put out full output until alternator RPM's exceed 4000 to 5000 RPM's. Also our crankshaft pulley's are so small the ratio of Alternator to Engine RPM's is usually less than 2 to 1. Maintaining good belt tension with a small single belt and less than 180 degree wrap on the alternator pulley means youare limited to about 100 Amps anyway from this source. Add to that the last 15% of charging occurs at very low Amperage and you soon realize this may be a popular route to go but it is very inefficient. Lacking good solar or wind charging, I think light portable gas generators like a Honda 2000 are a better way to go for less than $1000 spent. Then you can run the shore power charger you already have for very little gas cost. It is not my preferred approach but it is usually the most cost effective.

I would also recommend picking up a house bank battery monitor like the Xantrex Link Lite. It can be found for less than $250 and includes a shunt that is hooked up on the batteries negative side. It measures all load demands as well as all charging input when it is installed correctly.

Finally your question on battery brands. In my opinion Trojan makes the most cost effective, when properly maintained and charged, 6 volt golf cart sized batteries on the market. Despite that I don't think their 12 volt batteries are as highly regarded. They aren't bad, just not exceptional.

Hope you find this info helpful,

Keith on Camelot

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From: "'Jim' via Allmand" <all...@googlegroups.com>
To: all...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sunday, July 5, 2015 2:36:35 PM

[Lee]

Hi All,

 

   Looking for advice.

 

Today I had the most disaterious thing happen.  I tried to open a seacock for my water wash down and the pipe broke off in my hand. I’m 5 miles to the nearest boat lift…..  my normally not so cool and collective wife REALLY steped up and help me plug the hole until I could find something to plug the ¾+ line.  We ended up using latex gloves (home depot) 5-6 pairs and shoved them into the pipe and sealed it ???? mostly.  I am looking for suggestions on how to repair it w/o hauling the boat?

 

Thanks

 

-Lee