Mafac Racers v. Compass v. Pauls, etc.

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Dave Feldman

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Apr 24, 2015, 11:30:54 AM4/24/15
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Some mechanics' notes here:  Racers were originally made for tubular rims--look at some older touring bikes and you'll notice that with rims wider than about 22mm the outward travel in the arms is pretty well used up.  You can fudge this by pad-shopping for the thinnest possible rubber such as Kool Stop Thinlines.  Pauls' brakes use a threaded-post pad--less variety in thickness available plus less flexible adjustment for pad angle.
Compass/Mafac Raids are sized for 20+mm wide rims.  The rear brake area needs more vertical room than Pauls or Racers; maybe these brakes are ideal for frames @53-54cm or taller?   There is a Mafac catalog reprint available from Velo-Retro that includes a post-location chart for brazing brakes in place, this may be a helpful reference for cyclists considering one brake over the other.

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David Feldman
Feldman's Bicycle Repair
Vancouver, WA

Peter Adler

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Apr 24, 2015, 4:12:18 PM4/24/15
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I snitched this scan of a similar (identical?) chart off an eBay listing, and posted it in one of the various recent centerpull braze-on threads on CR and/or iBOB.

Peter Adler
who ignores frames on eBay France unless they have CP braze-on posts
Berkeley, CA/USA
Mafac_settings.JPG

satanas

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Apr 25, 2015, 4:00:34 PM4/25/15
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Shouldn't this be Mafac *Raid* vs Compass vs Paul Racer? These at least all have similar reach. Then there are cantis, Tektro R556/559 dual pivots and v brakes...

Can anyone who has used a variety of these comment on the relative performance of the Tektros? (I don't care about style points or retroness, only how they stop!)

Later,
Stephen

Ryan Watson

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Apr 25, 2015, 4:40:46 PM4/25/15
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The Tektro R556 stop as well as Raids in my experience. In fact, I have the Tektros on my "Japan bike" and those Japanese mountain roads are WAY steeper and twistier than anything I've encountered in the Rockies or Alps and they handle it just fine.
The Raids have better clearance, the option for braze-on mounting, and you can get nifty little racks that attach to them. Plus they look really cool! (IMO ;-)
Whichever you chose, be sure to upgrade the pads, I suggest the Dura Ace R55C3.

Ryan
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Stephen Poole

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Apr 25, 2015, 4:52:35 PM4/25/15
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Thanks Ryan,

I'm leaning towards the Tektros since they're easier for me to get, and *don't* need braze-ons or stiff seatstays or cable hangers. If I hate them I can always try the bolt-on Paul Racers, and switch them onto braze-on mounts at some point. The Pacenti crown for the project has mounting points integrated, so the brakes don't need them as well; the rack will be custom - I have tubing for it.

Later,
Stephen

Brad

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Apr 25, 2015, 5:15:39 PM4/25/15
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By nifty little rack do you mean this one?
http://www.blackbirdsf.org/ta/images/ref270.2.jpg

It works great but they require a little springing for the addtional breadth of the Raid.  They were originally produced to feet the then ubiquitous Racer.  The Raid got created later.  The Raid also comes/came with a very intelligently designed drop bolt which makes me think it was expressly aimed at 650 Touring on frames brazed up for 700C / 27 x 1 1/4 wheels.

Nick Payne

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Apr 25, 2015, 5:51:01 PM4/25/15
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Stephen

I've ridden 650b bikes with the Tektro 556 brakes a couple of times on
the alpine ride at Bright, which gives plenty of opportunity for
observing how well brakes work. No complaints about their performance at
all. I had replaced the stock pads with Koolstop salmon pads when I
first installed the brakes. I subsequently replaced the front brake on
one of the bikes with a Paul Racer - centre mount, not braze-on - to get
more clearance for a mudguard, and can't say I noticed any braking
difference.

Nick

Stephen Poole

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Apr 25, 2015, 7:04:28 PM4/25/15
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Thanks very much Nick - I think that decides it! :-)

Later,
Stephen

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Ryan Watson

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Apr 25, 2015, 8:19:23 PM4/25/15
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That's the idea, but I like this one better. (See pic)
It's got a larger square platform, but  made of similar tubing and attaches the same way. 
I've heard speculation that they were made by Sologne, but I don't know for sure. 


image1.jpeg

Mike Schiller

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Apr 25, 2015, 8:20:04 PM4/25/15
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I have not tried Mafac Raids, just Mafac Racers, Tektro dual pivots and brazed on Paul Racers.  The brazed on Paul Racer was the best by a far margin with the Mafac's 2nd.  I hated the long reach Tektros. Stopping power was far less than adequate.  

~mike
Carlsbad Ca


Mark Bulgier

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Apr 25, 2015, 10:40:29 PM4/25/15
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Ryan wrote:
That's the idea, but I like this one better. (See pic)
It's got a larger square platform, but  made of similar tubing and attaches the same way. 
I've heard speculation that they were made by Sologne, but I don't know for sure.

Pretty sure both the TA and larger square one you showed are made of solid steel, not tubing.  Tubing is advantageous for stiffness to weight ratio, but these little wire racks are plenty stiff enough for the light loads they see.  I've had a TA on my main "townie" bike (errands, transpo) since the '70s.  I can't imagine how many six-packs or similar weight in grocery bags etc it has carried over the decades.  Never wished for anything stiffer.

Since all the weight is cantilevered off a single 6 mm bolt at the crown (when used with bolt-on brakes), that's the limit to how much weight you can carry.  Maybe someone with brazed-on brake pivots might be tempted to load it with bars of gold bullion or car batteries, but I doubt those are common scenarios.  For any normal handlebar-bag type loads, the thin steel wire racks are more than adequate.

Mark Bulgier
Seattle
 

Brad

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Apr 26, 2015, 10:36:38 AM4/26/15
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The TA racks are made out of a 4.4 mm rod.  I just measured it because I use Honjo stay r clips to attach LED lights.
The other rack is also rod, but I haven't measured it.
They are a little shorter than tube based racks on the market.  They support the bottom of the Berthoud bag just to the end of the leather and no more. 
The total volume of steel involved may be about the same since tube racks are most often made out of 8 mm tube or 3/8 tube.
The TA rack is a cantilever and does not have any attachment to the fork other than the brake hole so tightening the brake is important.
The single attachment point to the fork makes the narrower TA design more sensible since there is less lever moment to twist.
The TA design also mimics the Routens rack which I think is the bees knees, particularly since it inspired Peter Weigle's latest gems.

Evan Baird

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Apr 26, 2015, 12:46:22 PM4/26/15
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I fell in love with one of these racks I saw at Recycled Cycles years ago, but when I finally got the dia compe version on my bike I found it to be pretty useless. If I put more than a jacket worth of weight in the bag it would rotate the whole brake, which makes me think they're only good with small bags and strapped very securely to the bars. I guess brazed pivots would help a lot, but the modern ones need to clamp to the crown bolt.

Peter Adler

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Apr 26, 2015, 5:05:41 PM4/26/15
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Another variation on the small HB rack model is the Pletscher handlebar rack, which mounts to the fork crown, instead of the brake. It's cast aluminum, like all the Pletscher racks; it's got a little rat-trap near the head tube, and a flimsy bungie cord to attach a load. The assembly fits onto flat-topped crown only; aluminum pieces are screwed into the bottom of the mount to wedge it to the fork blades.


The mount is pretty bulky, and may not fit around all brakes. I have one on a Raleigh Super Course, where it fits around the sidepull RBW Silvers/Tektro 559s; I'm less confident that you could get it around Mafac RAIDs.

Peter Adler
Berkeley, CA/USA
Pletscher HB rack.JPG

Steve Chan

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Apr 26, 2015, 5:10:26 PM4/26/15
to satanas, 650b, Ryan W


  The IRD B76 seems to be an alternative to the Tektro R556, but with slightly different specs (a few mm longer reach). Does anyone have experience with them?

   Steve

John Selway

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Apr 26, 2015, 7:53:58 PM4/26/15
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I’ve got the B76, noticeable flex as one would expect from very long calipers but they seem to work well enough.  Included pads are lacking, switched to Kool Stop.  I haven’t pushed them to the limit, no sudden stops from very high speed, so I can’t say how they’d do under more extreme circumstances.  Otherwise for the average riding I do most of the time (commuting at moderate speeds, no big hills, stop and go urban traffic) they are fine, and very similar to the R556 which I’ve also used.

-John

Chris Cullum

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Apr 26, 2015, 7:54:45 PM4/26/15
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It's funny how opinion varies about the Tektro super long reach dp brakes. Some say they're great and others find them weak and flexy. I have a set in the parts bin but can't comment as I haven't used them yet.

Mafac Racers generally don't have the reach or width for a typical 650b conversion. You need an extra 19mm reach from the existing brake setup which is significant.

Kieran Joyes

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Apr 26, 2015, 9:19:41 PM4/26/15
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The GF's bike has the B76 on the rear, works well. They are as good as the Tektros, maybe slightly smoother/more powerful. 
The few mm's of extra length is great for some of the 80's Treks that have slightly too much reach for the Tektros.

KJ

Mark Bulgier

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Apr 26, 2015, 9:58:52 PM4/26/15
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Brad wrote:
> The TA rack is a cantilever and does not have any attachment to the fork other than the brake hole

True for brakes that only bolt on at the crown, but it should be mentioned that with brazed-on centerpulls, it's a three-point triangulated structure. People who go to the trouble to have their centerpull bosses brazed on probably tend to get fancier racks than the lowly TA, but there's no reason you couldn't use a TA with braze-ons, and I'm sure a few have been used that way.

Mark Bulgier
Seattle

Jim Bronson

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Apr 27, 2015, 1:02:42 AM4/27/15
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I weigh 260+ and I think the super long reach Tektro brakes stop fine.  People say they're flexy... Well I have an 80s gas pipe 27" Nishiki that I use as my around town beater, it has Dia Compe brakes and they literally flex a quarter of an inch when applied, and that is with terrible 80s era pads.  If I had Kool Stops on there I might be able to brake hard enough to permanently bend the arms, or snap them off.

satanas

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Apr 27, 2015, 11:39:53 AM4/27/15
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When people say the Tektro brakes are flexy, do they mean flex perceived through the levers (mild sponginess), or are we talking about serious arm flex, with uncontrollable squealing, lack of power, etc?

FWIW, I have to set up short reach dual pivots with a significant gap between the pads and rims or my not-so-large hands and weak fingers cannot apply any power; a little flex could be useful to me.

Later,
Stephen (who thinks Tektros can't be too bad if GP approves of them)

Chris Cullum

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Apr 27, 2015, 11:50:16 AM4/27/15
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Arm flex and lack of power are complaints I heard. I have not heard people talk about uncontrollable squealing.

Brian Campbell

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Apr 27, 2015, 11:59:47 AM4/27/15
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I use the tektros on two bikes and feel they work fine. No squeal.

Murray Love

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Apr 27, 2015, 12:09:18 PM4/27/15
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I didn't like them much when I used them: Braking was adequate, but they didn't have the level of feedback and solid-feelingness that I prefer from brakes. No squeal that I recall. I now use similar-reach Dia-Compe 750s on my 650B bikes, and generally find them superior, plus they're more fender-friendly.

My wife still has a set on her Bleriot, and the rear caliper spring is so light that it barely has enough oomph to retract the pads. Part of this is due to the tighter cabling curvature on smaller bikes, but they were like this even when new. Plus, there's a significant amount of play in the outer pivot, but I can't tighten it too much due to the weak spring.

Mind you, these are first-gen 556s, from 2006. They may have improved them in the interim.

Murray
Victoria, BC

Stephen Poole

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Apr 27, 2015, 12:23:33 PM4/27/15
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Hmmm. I know some people don't like the levers to move at all (as with stock Mafac or Universal brake and lever sets), but I find both effort and reach excessive with these.

Short dual pivots (like Dura-Ace 7400/7800) are much better IMO, with plenty of power and decent feel. Cantis are a bit underwhelming by comparison; they do the job, but both feel and power are worse.

My experience with centrepulls has generally been one of excessive sponginess, but this depends on what levers and cable stops are used; a balance between flex and power isn't easy, or so it seems to me. I haven't used any recent high end ones, and 70s/80s were either really spongy if Japanese, or needed super hand strength and reach if European.

It'd be nice to be able to try a few things without having to buy them first, even if just in the shop.(!)

Later,
Stephen

Eric Keller

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Apr 27, 2015, 12:31:56 PM4/27/15
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On Mon, Apr 27, 2015 at 11:39 AM, satanas <nsc.e...@gmail.com> wrote:
When people say the Tektro brakes are flexy, do they mean flex perceived through the levers (mild sponginess), or are we talking about serious arm flex, with uncontrollable squealing, lack of power, etc?

I think the Tektro long reach brakes are great.  I hear the late, lamented Shimano long reach brakes are better, but I got tired of searching for a set. Of course, it would be nice if the QR was better.

Chris Cullum

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Apr 27, 2015, 12:34:59 PM4/27/15
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When did Shimano make a sidepull with longer than 57mm reach? That's what we're talking about here right?

Jim Bronson

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Apr 27, 2015, 1:04:59 PM4/27/15
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The Shimano 47-57s have amazing stopping power, but they can accommodate 32mm tires max with fenders, and barely at that.  They're not in the same league as far as reach goes as some of the other brakes that get discussed around here.  Maybe without fenders you could squeeze in a 35.

My Redwood has the Shimano 47-57s along with Kool Stops and I have to remind myself when switching from my Riv Custom that has the R559s to the Redwood that I need to back off on the application pressure.  When I first rode the Redwood I almost did an endo when I applied firm pressure to the levers.

The Tektros do require more application pressure but I have large, strong hands so I don't really think about it, maybe that's why I think they stop fine while others think they're weak.



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Stephen Poole

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Apr 27, 2015, 1:12:27 PM4/27/15
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On 27 Apr 2015 16:35, "Chris Cullum" <cullum...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> On Apr 27, 2015 9:31 AM, "Eric Keller" <kell...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I think the Tektro long reach brakes are great.  I hear the late, lamented Shimano long reach brakes are better, but I got tired of searching for a set. Of course, it would be nice if the QR was better.
> >
> When did Shimano make a sidepull with longer than 57mm reach? That's what we're talking about here right?

^ Never. BTW, I googled out of curiosity and the R650 calipers are on special at wiggle right now; I'll probably order some myself. Wiggle have cheaper ones too, but the price difference is tiny. Not so many places keep 57mm calipers on the shelf, but they've always been available ex Shimano, unless temporarily out of stock. The QR works fine IME, and there's always the adjuster if you want it to open wider. (Or use levers with QR, like Ergopower.)

Later,
Stephen

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