584 London Road

[Ed Braley]

That's where I'm at right now. :-)

 

I just finished building this thing: a 650B conversion based on the Planet X London Road frame.

 

I'm not the first to do this, there's another one out there on the Interwebs. But it's an easy build and relatively inexpensive with production 27.5 mtb disc wheels and cable operated Shimano disc brakes. I wanted to use the new Tiagra 4700 group, but it's not available yet, so I'm running a Shimergo drivetrain with parts swapped out from other projects.

 

I'm rolling the Panaracer T-Serv 27.5 x 1.75 tires on this rig. Years ago when we were in the darkest days of the 650B tire shortage I thought the Pasela 37mm tread would be a good Trimline replacement. Well, this is it, a folding tire measuring 650x42B. It's tougher than the file tread Compass and Pacenti tires, but not as aggressive as the Cazadero. I think it'll be a good compromise. Gravel grinding here we go!

 

I was going to wait it out before building another 650B. The disc gravel bike standards are still evolving, and I'd like to have an 11 speed thru-axle bike with hydraulic brakes, but this bike was a tempting option, and it works really well just as it is right here:

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/25373440@N00/sets/72157656526209401

[Mike Schiller]

cool project.  Doesn't look like there was much space up front... that might be wicked with some BG Rock n Roads on there!

~mike

Carlsbad Ca

[Ed Braley]

The fork has 50mm of clearance, so a 42mm tire is the practical limit for this bike. I think I'd want to ride a mountain bike if the conditions required anything bigger and more aggressive than that.

 

Thanks,

Ed.

 

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[Kevin McGrew]

Looks a whole lot like my Crockett:

Ed - your builds have been an inspiration for me - Thanks!

I have another set of wheels with 650B- BG Rock n' Roads mounted.  All tubeless.

[B Sloma]

Nice, looks good.  Now I'm asking myself why I let my 650b wheels go.

Looks like you've got the Shimergo thing going there.  8 speed in the back?  I'm curious - How do the Campy levers work with the Shimano brakes?  I wondered if these would pair well together, or not.

[Ed Braley]

I'm running this bike 9 speed with Campy 10 shifters. If you route the cable around the tabbed washer on the rear derailleur and clamp it there, it works just fine. The Brits call this "hubub routing".

 

The Shimano disc calipers are intended for drop bar levers and the Ergo controls work just fine. The brakes are easy to modulate, and they have a lot of power.

 

The bike works like a production machine, there are no operational glitches whatsoever. I was originally hoping to use the new Tiagra 4700 group, but those parts weren't shipping when I built the bike. And now I think I'll just leave it as it is, I'm happy with this configuration.

 

Ed.

----- Original Message -----

From: B Sloma

To: 650b

Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2015 10:20 AM

Subject: [650B] Re: 584 London Road

--

[Nick Payne]

On 27/08/2015 01:12, Ed Braley wrote:

I'm running this bike 9 speed with Campy 10 shifters. If you route the cable around the tabbed washer on the rear derailleur and clamp it there, it works just fine. The Brits call this "hubub routing".

One combination of shifter, derailleur, and cassette that seems to work essentially perfectly is to use 11-speed Campagnolo shifters with 9-speed Shimano rear derailleur and cassette. No alternate cable routing is needed. There is actually a 0.1mm difference in the cable pull per gear between the two systems, but if the derailleur is adjusted so that it is centered on the central cog of the cassette, the float in the top jockey wheel is more than enough to take up the 0.4mm difference at either end of the cassette.

I have this combination installed on one of my 650b bikes, and the shifting works just as well as it did with the original Shimano 9s Ultegra shifters, which were starting to jam when attempting to shift. I also found that new 11-speed Chorus shifters were pretty much the same price as sellers were asking on eBay for NOS Ultegra.

The Campagnolo shifters also combine well with both Tektro R556 long reach dual pivot and Paul Racer brakes.

Nick

[Jeffrey Kane]

NockP -- dumb question -- but what happens at the end of the lever stroke on the 11 speed shifter when you've reached the last (I'm assuming low) cog? Sorry -- I can't wrap my head around this without seeing it -- does the shifter still have two clicks left in it's reach? (remember, I said it was a dumb question).

[cyclotourist]

Jeffrey, the limit screws on the derailer keep you from over-shifting. The extra gear(s) on the shifters are never used.

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Cheers,
David

Member, Supreme Council of Cyberspace

"it isn't a contest. Just enjoy the ride." - Seth Vidal

[Jeffrey Kane]

Thanks, I figured that about the limit screws -- but can't wrap my head around why the shifter paddle still won't want to click twice more past the 9th detent … (it's ok, you can call me slow)

[satanas]

FWIW, Campag 11 levers work fine with a Shimano 10 rear end and Hubbub cable routing. I used this for PBP, but by the end my hands had no strength left, so back to STI for me. The fingers are still weak one week later, especially on the right hand.

And Nick, are you using the current Chorus levers, and if so with how many chainwheels? Campag say they'll only work with two as that's all they offer now, but three should be okay unless something has changed recently. (Quite likely.)

Later,
Stephen

[Brett Sloma]

The last click is at the "top", cable is at tension, and the limit screw prevents not just the derailleur moving more, but also the cable.  The cable simply can't be pulled any further, and you can't reach the last click (or two).

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[Jim Bronson]

Great discussion, thanks guys.

I am tending to gum up barcons after about a year so I'm pondering going back to STI or Ergo.  I never had these sorts of problems with STI. 

Running 9 speed Shimano 11-34 now with 44-28 up front.  I worry about trim in front, but realistically, I almost never use the 28, so brifters would probably work fine if I just center the front derailer on the big ring.

I'm not super crazy about the thumb shifting on Ergopower but then again I've never actually tried it and if it works so well on a 9 speed Shimano system, I'm pretty tempted.

[Joan Oppel]

I'm using Campy Chorus 11 speed shifters with Sugino triple and 9 speed rear cassette.  The front shifter doesn't seem to care whether asked to shift a double or a triple and works fine.  I got the Campy shifters for the same reason as Nick (inspired by him and a couple of others on forums) - the desire to have a 9 speed system but lack of NOS or even reasonably new Shimano STIs. I did buy one set that turned out not to have a working front shifter, not an experience to inspire confidence to continue to look at the used market.

Joan 

[Nick Payne]

On 28/08/2015 00:50, satanas wrote:
> FWIW, Campag 11 levers work fine with a Shimano 10 rear end and Hubbub cable routing. I used this for PBP, but by the end my hands had no strength left, so back to STI for me. The fingers are still weak one week later, especially on the right hand.
>
> And Nick, are you using the current Chorus levers, and if so with how many chainwheels? Campag say they'll only work with two as that's all they offer now, but three should be okay unless something has changed recently. (Quite likely.)

The shifters are the current Chorus 11-speed Ultrashift - I think
they're still current, I bought them about a year ago. I'm only using
them with two chainrings. I don't know if they will work with three
chainrings, as I no longer have any bikes, other than the tandems, that
still have three chainrings.

Nick

[Dave]

One of the great benefits to Shimergo is the front shifter trim. I use 10 speed chorus with 9 speed shimano and the hubbub method. Plus, as those shifters get old, they are rebuildable with a kit. I haven't done so yet but it's on the maintenance list...

I'm a big fan of the campy ergonomics. The thumb shifting is super easy, especially when double shifting, you can upshift the entire cassette if you want in one movement, it's much easier to upshift from the drops, and the brake lever is fixed on one plane, which makes it feel solid. And the hoods are very comfortable.

[Stephen Poole]

On 28 Aug 2015 18:25, "Dave" <daveba...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> One of the great benefits to Shimergo is the front shifter trim.

Doesn't apply with recent Powershift levers.  :-(

> I use 10 speed chorus with 9 speed shimano and the hubbub method. Plus, as those shifters get old, they are rebuildable with a kit. I haven't done so yet but it's on the maintenance list...

I have Dura-Ace 7400 STI levers from 1991, still going strong, no service needed, but my new-this-year Ergos have already needed servicing...

> I'm a big fan of the campy ergonomics. The thumb shifting is super easy,

Disagree - during PBP my thumbnails started to separate at the tips due to all the thumb button pushing. Very painful, and thumbs are still inflamed/weak.

> especially when double shifting, you can upshift the entire cassette if you want in one movement, it's much easier to upshift from the drops,

Strongly disagree about the latter, unless one has EPS or the similarly cranked Athena thumb buttons. STI is way easier to reach from the drops; it may be different if one has large hands, but I doubt it.

> and the brake lever is fixed on one plane, which makes it feel solid.

This is a non-issue IME.

> And the hoods are very comfortable.

The Ultrashift shape is good but the ribs - not so much.

Another major issue for me is that Ergopower relies on *finger strength* whereas STI (or barcons) allow one to use the whole hand/wrist to do the shifting, using much larger muscles which are much slower to fatigue.

Upshifts on the front are especially awkward, though things might be better with the latest cloned-from-Shimano long-lever-arm double front mechs.

The Ergopower levers will either be sold or demoted to lower mileage bikes; haven't decided which yet.

My appreciation of barcons (and totally non-indexed triple front shifting) has increased dramatically in the last week.

Later,
Stephen (caveat emptor!)

[Chris Cullum]

Stephen, I tend to agree with most of your points. However PBP, riding 1200+km straight definitely takes things to the extreme. Most of the repetitive strain issues would be a non factor on shorter rides. I used to have Shimergo on my rando bike but after experiencing many of the hand strength and numbness issues on on long rides I switched to down tube shifters and have been very happy with change.

--

[Dave Bandstra]

Our different personal preferences are likely exacerbated by considering different versions.I actually can't recall the exact chorus version I use, but it's 10 speed with the front shifter trim. And I recall when looking for them a number of years ago required a bit of self-study about all the different speeds and different versions within those different speeds. It was complicated - powershift, ultrashift, QS, whatever they all were. The takeaway for me being unlike shimano, ergopower doesn't necessarily equal ergopower, so do your research.

[Stephen Poole]

Agreed that PBP doesn't constitute normal use(!), but not sure I want to go back to down tube levers as I find bar-mounted shifters very convenient; I shift more often than most people. I'm inclined to think that something like the Shimano R400 brake levers fit my hands better than any of the integrated levers, but the latter are easier and faster to use, and are easily accessible from more hand positions. FWIW, I had no issues with STI during PBP 1991, but I suppose my hands may be weaker now than then.

Unfortunately, I really like to have both close ratios and a wide range of gears for randonnees, something made much easier with a triple, but current lever options aren't the greatest. Might have to copy LA and use a brifter on the right plus a friction lever on the left, though not to save weight. (Or do a lot more training.)

Later,
Stephen

[Nick Payne]

Stephen

Try SRAM. I recently put together a bike using SRAM Force 22 shifters
and a SRAM Rival long arm RD, and the shifting effort required is
noticeably less that with the Chorus Ultrashift shifters I also have.
And with 38-27 chainrings and an 11-32 11-speed cassette, I have a high
of 91, a low of 22, and close ratios (11-12-13-14-16-18-20-22-25-28-32).
Photo of the bike setup here:
http://www.users.on.net/~njpayne/bikestuff/sportive.jpg.

Nick

[Jim Bronson]

That sounded great until you got to the part where you said your biggest gear was 91".  I have 104" now and want more.  We have these things around here called "rollers" and if I want to keep up with my Rando buddies I have to pedal downhill.

[Stephen Poole]

Thanks Nick,

It might be easier to give up on triple chainrings seeing support has basically ceased, apart from Campag whose offerings leave much to be desired.

38/27 might be a tad smaller than I'd like, but 40/28 would likely do the job. With a couple of cassettes for different purposes it might all be good, and would simplify things considerably.

Later,
Stephen (who'd rather spin than waste range on gears higher than 104")

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[Nick Payne]

I have to disagree there. I can pedal that 91" gear up to a bit over 50kph, and if the hill is steeper than that I stop pedalling and get into a tuck, and my speed will go up, not down.

[Nick Payne]

Well those particular chainrings (Middleburn Duo) are also available as a 42/29 combination. I have that on another bike which is running a 12t small cog rather than an 11.

Nick

[Stephen Poole]

Thanks Nick,

Might be an option, but Middleburn stuff is hard to come by, as is info; they don't answer emails. SJSC  is perhaps the only way to get anything.

Later,
Stephen

[mitch....@gmail.com]

On Friday, August 28, 2015 at 10:55:06 AM UTC-6, satanas wrote:

On 28 Aug 2015 18:25, "Dave" <daveba...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> One of the great benefits to Shimergo is the front shifter trim.

Doesn't apply with recent Powershift levers.  :-(

Does this mean that the current 11sp Campagnolo doesn't use the same left shifter trimming for the front derailleur that 10sp did? 

How is it different? 

 

Upshifts on the front are especially awkward, though things might be better with the latest cloned-from-Shimano long-lever-arm double front mechs.

I'm building up a bike with Campagnolo 11sp (Athena) in a couple weeks and didn't know the front shifting had issues. In fact I've planned on using a NOS Record 10sp front derailleur (double) that looks a lot like the current 11sp front. If der. lever arm is different and front shifting is awkward then I might need to source a proper 11sp Athena front double. 

This build is for someone who likes clean shifting. 

Thanks for any information you have on Campagnolo 11sp shifting. 

--Mitch

[Stephen Poole]

On 1 Sep 2015 07:14, <mitch....@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> On Friday, August 28, 2015 at 10:55:06 AM UTC-6, satanas wrote:
>>
>>
>> On 28 Aug 2015 18:25, "Dave" <daveba...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > One of the great benefits to Shimergo is the front shifter trim.
>>
>> Doesn't apply with recent Powershift levers.  :-(
>
>
> Does this mean that the current 11sp Campagnolo doesn't use the same left shifter trimming for the front derailleur that 10sp did? 
>
> How is it different? 

My understanding (could be wrong) is that lever travel for triple levers is reduced, and there are definitely fewer intermediate positions. I know nothing about the double lever or FD, except that the latest road FDs have much longer cable attachment arms, which means less hand effort; triple RDs aren't like this - lots of effort and few trim possibilities.

Best of luck,
Stephen

>>
>> Upshifts on the front are especially awkward, though things might be better with the latest cloned-from-Shimano long-lever-arm double front mechs.
>
>
> I'm building up a bike with Campagnolo 11sp (Athena) in a couple weeks and didn't know the front shifting had issues. In fact I've planned on using a NOS Record 10sp front derailleur (double) that looks a lot like the current 11sp front. If der. lever arm is different and front shifting is awkward then I might need to source a proper 11sp Athena front double. 
>
> This build is for someone who likes clean shifting. 
>
> Thanks for any information you have on Campagnolo 11sp shifting. 
>
> --Mitch
>

[Nick Payne]

I have 11-speed Chorus on a bike, and the front shifter has about six clicks in both directions over the full range of travel when not cabled to anything. However, when it's cabled to a front derailleur with the limit screws set for a two chainring configuration, you don't get the full range of travel and there are only three clicks . Not that I ever trim the front derailleur. I don't use the two largest cassette cogs with the large chainring or the two smallest with the small chainring, and without bothering with trim I don't get chain rub in any gear.

I'd been told that the Athena 11-speed front shifter doesn't have any trim position when pushing the thumb lever to change down - one click and you're on the small chainring. You do, however, get the three click on the way up.

Nick

[mitch....@gmail.com]

On Friday, August 28, 2015 at 10:55:06 AM UTC-6, satanas wrote:

...Upshifts on the front are especially awkward, though things might be better with the latest cloned-from-Shimano long-lever-arm double front mechs.

 

Sounds like there has been a change in 11speed front derailleurs from the early versions so I should beware of getting an older Athena 11sp on ebay or similar. There are all-silver Athena 11sp fronts for sale on ebay that I'm guessing are the older ones since Campagnolo doesn't sell an all silver one now, only silver/black and all-black.

 

thanks Stephen and Nick for info on the 11speed. It's new to me so any of this is helpful.

 

--Mitch  

[Stephen Poole]

Bear in mind  my experience is with  current Athena Triple levers and FDs.  I haven't used the double stuff, just reporting what I've seen and heard. Still, the newer FDs are mean to shift better from all accounts.

Later,
Stephen

--

[Joan Oppel]

FWIW, I'm using current Chorus Ergo power 11 speed shifters with a Sugino triple, and Sora front derailleur. The shifting among the chain rings is smooth, works well. I have a few trim options, more than with old Shimano Ultegra triple front brifters.
Joan

Joan

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[Andrew]

What hasn't been mentioned clearly yet is that POWERSHIFT has little to no trim or ability to dump the rear cassette and ULTRASHIFT has.

Chorus and up has always had this. Lower groups initially had it in ten and eleven speed but not in the current line up.

2015 model stuff changed the pull ratios so shimergo might not work anymore with them.

Nick, if you have six clicks in your front shifter and can't get them all, use a mech with the shortest lever arm you can find and you'll get finer movement and more trim positions.

I have two shimergo setups, c11 to s9 ultrashift and c11 to s10 hubbub powershift. Both are flawless in operation and trim isn't an issue in my 2x10 powershift setup either.

[Stephen Poole]

On 2 Sep 2015 12:59, "Andrew" <ahb...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Nick, if you have six clicks in your front shifter and can't get them all, use a mech with the shortest lever arm you can find and you'll get finer movement and more trim positions.

The problem with this is that more force at the IMO too-short-compared-with-STI main LH shift lever will be required. Not a good thing for longer distances, as the necessary finger strength might not be there.

Best to: 1) avoid Powershift, 2) avoid triple chainwheels with Ergopower, and 3) avoid Campag entirely, IMO.

Nearly two weeks after PBP, and I still have very little hand strength; undoing tops on plastic bottles is a challenge.  :-(

Later,
Stephen