Lug size (OS) and tubing (Frame builders are encourage to respond)

[Lee Legrand]

Hi all,

I was looking at the the Rene Singer lugs and they only come OS sizes.  Does anyone know why this may be the case?  Is it the integrity of the lug itself that requires OS size tubing?

Also, how does one determine frame tubing size needed (diameter and gage thickness) for the rider based on weight?

Thank You in advance

[Justin Hughes]

It's all ball bearings (er. . . OS tubes) these days. 

[Ken Freeman]

Is René Singer a joke?

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Ken Freeman
Ann Arbor, MI USA

[Lee Legrand]

No Ken,

Richard Sach makes cast lugs for OS tubing. 

http://www.richardsachs.com/site/rs-framebuilding-material/

[Alex Wetmore]

It is because Richard Sachs builds bikes using lightweight oversized tubing.  I think he primarily uses Columbus Spirit for Lugs which is quite thin.

It is twice as expensive to make a lugset for two tubing sizes than for one tubing size.  Lug choices in standard diameter are actually fairly slim these days (especially if you want anything unusual like a 6 degree sloping top tube).

alex

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From: 65...@googlegroups.com <65...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Lee Legrand <krm...@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 8, 2017 11:28:41 AM
To: 65...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [650B] Lug size (OS) and tubing (Frame builders are encourage to respond)

 

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[David Parsons]

Maybe because it's easier to get O/S super thinwall tubing?     I think you'd be better off asking rsachs directly (I'm not sure, but I think that he prefers O/S tubing) unstead of asking the 650b list to do haruspicy on them.

As for thickness, I think it's something you learn after building a couple of hundred frames.  I've built a few frames, but my instincts for how stout to make the tubing is still "well, if it's too flexy the frame will disintegrate and I'll know not to use that wall thickness" (though the one frame I've had fail did the traditional seat tube failure at the BB, and that was a .6/.9 ST on a bikini lug, so it doesn't tell me anything about the .7/.4/.7 in the rest of the main triangle :-( )

-david parsons

[David Parsons]

On Wednesday, November 8, 2017 at 12:32:27 PM UTC-8, Alex Wetmore wrote:

It is twice as expensive to make a lugset for two tubing sizes than for one tubing size.  Lug choices in standard diameter are actually fairly slim these days (especially if you want anything unusual like a 6 degree sloping top tube).

Fortunately it's fairly easy to reshape a standard-diameter lug for unusual geometries! 

[Lee Legrand]

I understand that is twice expensive but did not know that Standard diameter lugs are more uncommon than OS diameter lugs.

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[Alex Wetmore]

Yes, the modern lugged bike industry is mostly about oversized tubing.  Oversized tubing is by far the standard these days, and has been for about 20 years.  To be specific oversized is 1.125" top tube and 1.25" downtube,  "standard" is 1" top tube and 1.125" downtube.  It is rare to find a mass produced (vs one off custom) road bike made in the last 20 years that uses standard diameter tubing.  

alex

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From: 65...@googlegroups.com <65...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Lee Legrand <krm...@gmail.com>

Sent: Wednesday, November 8, 2017 12:49:10 PM
To: David Parsons
Cc: 650b
Subject: Re: [650B] Lug size (OS) and tubing (Frame builders are encourage to respond)

 

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[njh...@gmail.com]

Darrell McCulloch (Llewellyn Bicycles) sells quite a few different lugsets. None of them are for what used to be "standard" tube sizes of 1" top tube and 1-1/8" down tube. Some of the sets are for 1-1/8" TT and 1-1/4" DT, and other are for 1-1/4" TT and 1-3/8" DT. See here: http://www.llewellynbikes.com/FramebuilderSupplies.html.

[Lee Legrand]

If OS is the standard, must be due to the weight.  Compass frame building materials offers standard but the riders are probably 180 lb riders (wished I weighed that much). 😂

On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 4:19 PM, <njh...@gmail.com> wrote:

Darrell McCulloch (Llewellyn Bicycles) sells quite a few different lugsets. None of them are for what used to be "standard" tube sizes of 1" top tube and 1-1/8" down tube. Some of the sets are for 1-1/8" TT and 1-1/4" DT, and other are for 1-1/4" TT and 1-3/8" DT. See here: http://www.llewellynbikes.com/FramebuilderSupplies.html.

--

[David Parsons]

OS is stiffer (and stronger), and it doesn't look *too* much bigger than standard tubing.    I think that the main thing you'd see with standard vs. OS tubing would be flexiness like whoa! when you're sprinting; the tubing would probably fail earlier than a similarly sized OS frame, but you'd be driven insane by shimmy, ghost shifts and the chainrings s-c-r-a-p-i-n-g against the pusher well before that  (I'm ~185 pounds, am not a particulary strong rider, but I tend to stomp up grades and the standard 7/4/7'ed frame I built suffered from ghost shifts & scraping when I was doing that.)

-david parson s

On Wednesday, November 8, 2017 at 2:10:57 PM UTC-8, Lee Legrand wrote:

If OS is the standard, must be due to the weight.  Compass frame building materials offers standard but the riders are probably 180 lb riders (wished I weighed that much). 😂

On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 4:19 PM, <njh...@gmail.com> wrote:

Darrell McCulloch (Llewellyn Bicycles) sells quite a few different lugsets. None of them are for what used to be "standard" tube sizes of 1" top tube and 1-1/8" down tube. Some of the sets are for 1-1/8" TT and 1-1/4" DT, and other are for 1-1/4" TT and 1-3/8" DT. See here: http://www.llewellynbikes.com/FramebuilderSupplies.html.

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[Lee Legrand]

Hi David,

Are you saying that Compass tubing that is oversize will fail earlier than other tubing due to the thinness of the of the tubing 0.7/0.4/0.7?

Lee

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[Murray Love]

It's weight and stiffness. An 8/5/8 OS tube is lighter than a 10/7/10 standard-diameter tube, but the two are comparable in stiffness. 

I weigh 204 lb and ride a 63cm standard-diameter 531 frame (8/5/8 TT, 9/6/9 DT) with no problems whatsoever. My other bike is a 60cm Vitus 979 which is even more flexible and feels perfectly fine.

I have pronounced many anathemata on OS steel bikes. OS tubes could be one useful tool in the frame designer's toolkit (though lugs admittedly make this difficult), but instead have almost entirely taken over the remaining steel-frame business. A great many new allroad-style bikes would be attractive to me, but I can't bring myself to pay money for yet another 9/6/9 OS tank.

Murray

Victoria, BC

[Alex Wetmore]

OS tubing in light gauges (so 7/4/7 oversized compared to 9/6/9 standard) makes a lighter frame with similar ride quality.  This is why the high end steel industry moved to oversized in the first place.  Surly and others build bikes that have oversized tubing without going lighter, and that makes for very stiff bikes (not a ride quality that I'm that excited about).

Standard diameter tubing isn't that hard to get, there just are fewer lug choices, especially if you want anything unusual.  My "rando" bike is standard diameter and lugged with a 2 degree sloping top tube.  The lugs came from Nova and are nice and minimal and suit the bike well.  My commuter is lugged and oversized because I wanted a 6 degree top tube slope and I couldn't find standard diameter lugs with the right angles.  I also already had a 1-1/8" fork that I wanted to use for the bike.

If you build lugless you can do anything and mix and match as much as you want.  Most of the bikes that I've built are lugless (fillet brazed) for that reason.

alex

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Sent: Wednesday, November 8, 2017 2:10:53 PM
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Cc: 650b
Subject: Re: [650B] Re: Lug size (OS) and tubing (Frame builders are encourage to respond)

 

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[David Parsons]

On Wednesday, November 8, 2017 at 2:28:04 PM UTC-8, Lee Legrand wrote:

Hi David,

Are you saying that Compass tubing that is oversize will fail earlier than other tubing due to the thinness of the of the tubing 0.7/0.4/0.7?

   Maybe?   But tubing stiffness goes up by (I think) the square of the diameter, so the O/S tubes won't flex nearly as much as standard diameter ones will, and less flexing == less fatigue.    Steel's a pretty tough material, after all;  there are plenty of steel racing tandems out there that are made of O/S steel, and those see stresses a single can't even dream of without exploding midsprint.

[Alex Wetmore]

Thin tubing dents more easily.  To counter this tubing which is sold in thinner gauges is made of harder steels which are less likely to dent.  Those steels are more expensive (main triangle tubes for an 853 or Platinum OX bike are about 3-4x the cost of tubes for a 4130 bike) and they are harder to work with, so it makes the frame cost go up quite a bit.  This is why they are primarily seen on high end production or custom bikes.

You can buy 7/4/7 tubesets made of 4130, but they are uncommon and the bikes probably wouldn't last as long.  You can get hardened tubesets like True Temper S3 down to 5/3/5, or half the thickness.

Making the tubing larger adds a tiny amount of weight, and a lot of stiffness.  Removing wall thickness makes tubes dent more easily and more flexible.  Heat treating and special alloys can increase the strength so that dents aren't an issue.  Typical tubesets are changing all of these variables at one time to make something that rides well and durable.

alex

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From: 65...@googlegroups.com <65...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Lee Legrand <krm...@gmail.com>

Sent: Wednesday, November 8, 2017 2:28:02 PM
To: David Parsons

Cc: 650b
Subject: Re: [650B] Re: Lug size (OS) and tubing (Frame builders are encourage to respond)

[Murray Love]

It's actually proportional to the fourth power of diameter. The area moment of inertia of a tube I = pi*(OD^4-ID^4)/64.

A rough rule of thumb for the tube sizes commonly found on steel bicycles is that the OS tube is roughly as stiff as a standard tube two "steps" thicker, so 7/4/7 OS is comparable to 9/6/9 standard, 8/5/8 OS to 10/7/10 standard, and 9/6/9 OS to--what?--gaspipe?

Murray

Victoria, BC 

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[satanas]

There are online tubing stiffness calculators, offering various units and materials; google will find them if anyone wants to see exact numbers.

Re lugs: Ceeway in the UK still offer quite a range of non-OS lugs albeit few, if any, for significantly sloping top tubes.

Later,
Stephen

[Mark Bulgier]

Stephen wrote:

> Ceeway in the UK still offer quite a range of non-OS lugs albeit few, if any, for  significantly sloping top tubes

Lugs can be bent or cut'n'welded to change the angles.  Easier with vintage lugs made from sheetmetal (typically from before about 1985) than with investment cast  ("IC") lugs.

I have solid steel bars that I insert into the lug sockets and just lever them to the needed angle.  I can get a couple degrees from most IC lugs, and up to 10° from vintage sheetmetal lugs.  Though at that extreme, they do start to look a bit distorted, so I'll be more likely to cut a thin wedge out at the crotch, bend, and weld or fillet-braze the cut, to get the angle with less distortion.

I have lots of vintage sheetmetal lugs, such as Nervex Pro, Prugnat, Bocama, Haden, Dubois and Cinelli to name a few, which I can sell if you are having a custom frame made and want to use vintage lugs.  My price is not cheap (I'm more of a hoarder than a dealer), but if you're paying thousands for a custom frame, the cost of the lugs may be acceptable if it is an important part of your vision for your dream bike.  Serious inquires only please, I don't want to have to pull them out and photograph them If you're only curious.

For example, Jon Williams commissioned a frame from Jeff Lyon using old stamped Cinelli lugs, pics here: https://flic.kr/p/gLS3YN

Warning, your framebuilder may be a bit grumpy about having to use, say Nervex Pro lugs, that require a lot more work to look nice, compared to modern IC lugs. (ach, kids these days!)

Mark Bulgier

Seattle

[David Parsons]

On Wednesday, November 8, 2017 at 8:04:45 PM UTC-8, Mark Bulgier wrote:

Lugs can be bent or cut'n'welded to change the angles.  Easier with vintage lugs made from sheetmetal (typically from before about 1985) than with investment cast  ("IC") lugs.

I have solid steel bars that I insert into the lug sockets and just lever them to the needed angle.  I can get a couple degrees from most IC lugs, and up to 10° from vintage sheetmetal lugs.  Though at that extreme, they do start to look a bit distorted, so I'll be more likely to cut a thin wedge out at the crotch, bend, and weld or fillet-braze the cut, to get the angle with less distortion.

I've been using regular carpenters hammers & small rubber mallets to clean up the lugs when I reshape them to that degree;  I'll just use regular tubing to do the initial levering, then go over the bulges with hammer and mallet to clean them up.    I've not gone past ~10 degrees (74.5HTA and a 9 degree TT slope, probably sheetmetal lug) while doing that, though;  one of these days I really need to learn how to weld so I can do more ridiculously shaped lugged bicycle frames.

[Stephen Poole]

On 9 Nov 2017 4:46 pm, "David Parsons" <grr.g...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Wednesday, November 8, 2017 at 8:04:45 PM UTC-8, Mark Bulgier wrote:

Lugs can be bent or cut'n'welded to change the angles.  Easier with vintage lugs made from sheetmetal (typically from before about 1985) than with investment cast  ("IC") lugs.

^ So Mark, what would you do with BB shells if/when the angles aren't right? There aren't too many options there, and most seem to be cast these days. How much angular error (or gap in the sockets) do you think is acceptable, for brass and for silver?

...one of these days I really need to learn how to weld so I can do more ridiculously shaped lugged bicycle frames.

Good luck with that. I went to night classes to try to learn TIG welding a few years back and was hopeless at it, and regular arc welding too. For whatever reason silver soldering and brazing is okay for me, but if there's electricity involved...  :-(

Later,

Stephen (who's really good at sticking the electrode to the workpiece)

[David Parsons]

On Wednesday, November 8, 2017 at 10:55:25 PM UTC-8, satanas wrote:

On 9 Nov 2017 4:46 pm, "David Parsons" <grr.g...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Wednesday, November 8, 2017 at 8:04:45 PM UTC-8, Mark Bulgier wrote:

Lugs can be bent or cut'n'welded to change the angles.  Easier with vintage lugs made from sheetmetal (typically from before about 1985) than with investment cast  ("IC") lugs.

^ So Mark, what would you do with BB shells if/when the angles aren't right? There aren't too many options there, and most seem to be cast these days. How much angular error (or gap in the sockets) do you think is acceptable, for brass and for silver?

     I'm not Mark, but I'll brute-force BB lugs 2-3 degrees before I start getting nervous.   Of the small handful of lugged frames I've made, I don't think there's one that hasn't had either the chainstay or DT lug coaxed a degree or so to fit.

 

[Harold Bielstein]

FWIW, Frame Builder’s Supply has standard dia lug sets that you can carve up to your heart’s content:
https://framebuildersupply.com/collections/lugs
Also, Omar carries the bending bars to persuade lugs/BB into the proper angles:
https://www.oasiscustomcycles.com

> On Nov 9, 2017, at 12:01 AM, David Parsons <grr.g...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> On Wednesday, November 8, 2017 at 10:55:25 PM UTC-8, satanas wrote:
>
>

> On 9 Nov 2017 4:46 pm, "David Parsons" <grr.g...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> On Wednesday, November 8, 2017 at 8:04:45 PM UTC-8, Mark Bulgier wrote:
> Lugs can be bent or cut'n'welded to change the angles. Easier with vintage lugs made from sheetmetal (typically from before about 1985) than with investment cast ("IC") lugs.
>
> ^ So Mark, what would you do with BB shells if/when the angles aren't right? There aren't too many options there, and most seem to be cast these days. How much angular error (or gap in the sockets) do you think is acceptable, for brass and for silver?
>
>

> I'm not Mark, but I'll brute-force BB lugs 2-3 degrees before I start getting nervous. Of the small handful of lugged frames I've made, I don't think there's one that hasn't had either the chainstay or DT lug coaxed a degree or so to fit.
>
>

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Harold Bielstein
5211 Meadowlark Dr.
Rapid City, SD 57702
605-341-0315
hkbie...@gmail.com

[Lee Legrand]

Not a frame builder.

On Thu, Nov 9, 2017 at 2:21 AM, Harold Bielstein <hkbie...@gmail.com> wrote:

FWIW, Frame Builder’s Supply has standard dia lug sets that you can carve up to your heart’s content:
https://framebuildersupply.com/collections/lugs
Also, Omar carries the bending bars to persuade lugs/BB into the proper angles:
https://www.oasiscustomcycles.com

> On Nov 9, 2017, at 12:01 AM, David Parsons <grr.g...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> On Wednesday, November 8, 2017 at 10:55:25 PM UTC-8, satanas wrote:
>
>
> On 9 Nov 2017 4:46 pm, "David Parsons" <grr.g...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> On Wednesday, November 8, 2017 at 8:04:45 PM UTC-8, Mark Bulgier wrote:
> Lugs can be bent or cut'n'welded to change the angles.  Easier with vintage lugs made from sheetmetal (typically from before about 1985) than with investment cast  ("IC") lugs.
>
> ^ So Mark, what would you do with BB shells if/when the angles aren't right? There aren't too many options there, and most seem to be cast these days. How much angular error (or gap in the sockets) do you think is acceptable, for brass and for silver?
>
>
>      I'm not Mark, but I'll brute-force BB lugs 2-3 degrees before I start getting nervous.   Of the small handful of lugged frames I've made, I don't think there's one that hasn't had either the chainstay or DT lug coaxed a degree or so to fit.
>
>

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Harold Bielstein
5211 Meadowlark Dr.
Rapid City, SD 57702
605-341-0315
hkbie...@gmail.com

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[Alex Wetmore]

Nova also sells a lot of standard diameter lugs:

http://www.cycle-frames.com/bicycle-frame-tubing/Road-Classic/

My rando bike is built with the Prugnat Set and Kaisei 8/5/8 tubing and it's one of my favorite bikes.  Brandon Ives did the lug brazing when he was still building frames, I did all of the detail and finish work.  The lug angles were modified to slope the top tube at 2 degrees, but going to a 6 degree slope (what I like for All Road bikes) would be a lot of lug manipulation.

Henry James also stocks a selection of standard diameter lugs.  They are out there, you just have fewer choices overall than if you build with oversized lugs.

alex

---

From: 65...@googlegroups.com <65...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Harold Bielstein <hkbie...@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 8, 2017 11:21:07 PM

To: David Parsons
Cc: 650b
Subject: Re: [650B] Re: Lug size (OS) and tubing (Frame builders are encourage to respond)

[Lee Legrand]

Hi Alex,

I weigh approximately 220 lbs and was thinking of tubing size now I am thinking standard tubs are pretty much out of the question for a randonneur bicycle.  I posted this topic because I am hoping to get one built one day and I really like the Rene Singer lugs that Richard Sach produces but had no idea in terms of lug size, standard vs OS tubing and thickness which was appropriate or why they came in only one size.  Reading Bicycle Quarterly hinted that OS was my only option but wanted clarification to that.

Thanks

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Harold Bielstein
5211 Meadowlark Dr.
Rapid City, SD 57702
605-341-0315
hkbie...@gmail.com



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[Eric Keller]

I guess it depends on how you think your weight is trending.  If there is no hope of ever losing weight, I would go with spirit for lugs and the rene singer lugs.  They are a fairly faithful rendering of Nervex Pro for OS tubing.  I weigh about 200 right now, with plans of going lower.  I'm building myself a standard tube bike with Columbus SL and nervex pro lugs.  I expect that would work for 200 without issue unless you were planning on doing the occasional loaded tour.

Eric Keller

Boalsburg, Pennsylvania

[Mark Guglielmana]

On Thursday, November 9, 2017 at 11:03:12 AM UTC-8, Eric Keller wrote:

...I weigh about 200 right now, with plans of going lower...

Don't we all! 

I refuse to buy "next size up" pants. When they start getting tight, I know what I have to do. Beats weighing in weekly...

[Lee Legrand]

Hi Eric,

I could definitely loose some weight. I tried bicycling and dieting to help with that but I think my approach is wrong.  Hoping to get into the gym soon and try to get well below 220 lb and more like 185 lbs.

Hi Mark,

Do you starve?  Just Kidding. 

Lee

--

[Eric Keller]

200 is my "eat all you want within reason" weight. Oh, and drink beer when I want, which is the big difference. So I just have to cut back on food and beer.  I finished a fall super rando series and my butt was not having any more of that for a while.  So I gained at least a little weight from my "recovery"

More to the point of this thread, when I ballooned up to 250lbs, I was riding an '80s Columbus SL frame.  So 9/69 standard tubes, I think?  I didn't have any problems with that bike, but I retired it in favor of a Columbus SfL OS tube frame. I couldn't really tell the difference.

Eric Keller

Boalsburg, Pennsylvania

On Thu, Nov 9, 2017 at 2:40 PM, Mark Guglielmana <mark.gug...@gmail.com> wrote:

--

[Lee Legrand]

Hi Eric,

I am not so much a big eater as I was when I was a teen.  Work is more sedentary and have done that for many years with lots of muscle loss.  My issue I think is that I need to move more and put some muscle on to help with the fat burning.  I was at one point doing about 30 miles twice a week on bicycle but it is getting cold now and do not have the layers to keep from being too cold.

Lee

[Mark Guglielmana]

My goal is to get below 200. 185 would be the weight I met my wife at. 

[Lee Legrand]

Hi Mark,

It is a worthy goal and I would pursue it.  I am sure you wife would appreciate you looking way she met you all those years ago.

Lee

[Steve Palincsar]

On 11/09/2017 03:54 PM, Lee Legrand wrote:
> Hi Eric,
>
> I am not so much a big eater as I was when I was a teen.  Work is more
> sedentary and have done that for many years with lots of muscle loss. 
> My issue I think is that I need to move more and put some muscle on to
> help with the fat burning.  I was at one point doing about 30 miles
> twice a week on bicycle but it is getting cold now and do not have the
> layers to keep from being too cold.

This is a problem that can easily be solved by throwing a little money
at it.

[Steve Palincsar]

On 11/09/2017 02:03 PM, Eric Keller wrote:

I guess it depends on how you think your weight is trending.  If there is no hope of ever losing weight, I would go with spirit for lugs and the rene singer lugs.  They are a fairly faithful rendering of Nervex Pro for OS tubing.  I weigh about 200 right now, with plans of going lower.  I'm building myself a standard tube bike with Columbus SL and nervex pro lugs.  I expect that would work for 200 without issue unless you were planning on doing the occasional loaded tour.

Eric Keller

Boalsburg, Pennsylvania

On Thu, Nov 9, 2017 at 1:50 PM, Lee Legrand <krm...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Alex,

I weigh approximately 220 lbs and was thinking of tubing size now I am thinking standard tubs are pretty much out of the question for a randonneur bicycle.  I posted this topic because I am hoping to get one built one day and I really like the Rene Singer lugs that Richard Sach produces but had no idea in terms of lug size, standard vs OS tubing and thickness which was appropriate or why they came in only one size.  Reading Bicycle Quarterly hinted that OS was my only option but wanted clarification to that.

You've probably seen photos of my George Longstaff, but if not, here it is.  This, by the way, is an English interpretation of a randonneur (they call them "Audax" bikes).
 


The label says "531 Designer Select," but the tube set is a mix of standard diameter 653 in 7/5/7 with an 8/5/8 downtube and 753 stays.  When I bought this bike from its first owner, I weighted 220.  The ride was delightful.  I now weigh 200 and the ride is still delightful.  I've owned the bike now for longer than the original owner: he commissioned it in 1991, sold it to me in 2002, and I've owned it ever since.  Not sure I understand why you think standard diameter tubing is "out of the question" because some of the best loaded touring bikes ever made were made with standard diameter tubing (admittedly, 10/7/10 gauge).

-- 
Steve Palincsar
Alexandria, Virginia 
USA

[Lee Legrand]

Out of the question due to weight of rider.  Not that I understand fully how a frame builder chooses frame material based on riding style and rider weight. My knowledge is limited but my ideas are based on the discussion here so far.

Lee

--

[Steve Palincsar]

On 11/09/2017 05:12 PM, Lee Legrand wrote:
> Out of the question due to weight of rider.  Not that I understand
> fully how a frame builder chooses frame material based on riding style
> and rider weight. My knowledge is limited but my ideas are based on
> the discussion here so far.
>

I've been your weight and I have a number of standard diameter thinwall
tubing bikes.  As I said, some of the best loaded touring bikes have
been made from standard diameter tubing.  I simply do not believe your
100 kg weight precludes standard diameter tubing, especially for a bike
meant to carry no more than a 10-15 lb load. Are you seriously
suggesting a bike like a Jack Taylor Tourist, built with 10/7/10 tubes
and meant to carry large loads front and rear would be overpowered or
even destroyed by your weight?  I don't believe it.  And like I said,
I've been 100kg and I've ridden those std diam 8/5/8 bikes and liked
them just fine.

On the other hand, if you think you're going to get up to 250 and plan
to do loaded touring, you might better look to some seriously thicker
and larger diameter tubing.  And really sturdy wheels.

[Murray Love]

Perhaps the quickest way to determine what's right for you would be to pick up a lightweight 1980s sport-tourer: something using Tange Prestige/#1/#2, 531, Columbus SL, Ishiwata 019, or something similar. Load it up the way you plan to use it, ride it around and get a proper idea of whether you like that degree of flexibility or not. Otherwise you're just throwing darts blindfolded.

I was 185, am now 206 (as of this morning) due to weightlifting, and have never found a bike that is too flexible. I have ridden many that are too stiff.

If you want a hand-built frame, as it seems, there are absolutely no problems getting a frame with non-OS lugs and tubing.

Murray

Victoria, BC 

[Mark Guglielmana]

Murray nailed it on the head. I can't imagine spec'ing a custom frame until the rider has been through a few bikes. 

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[Mark Bulgier]

Lee Legrand wrote:

> Out of the question due to weight of rider.  Not that I understand fully how a frame builder 

> chooses frame material based on riding style and rider weight.

There is no formula for determining best tubes for a given weight of rider, because it depends so much on personal preference.

A shop I worked at once once made an expensive custom titanium frame for a customer who urged us to go light, skirting the boundary of too light.  Because of all the extra work we put into polishing it and other custom flourishes, I was worried about what the verdict would be when he rode it.  He was a loud, macho guy and a body-builder and I wouldn't want him to be mad at me!  Well, he called up and sort of yelled (his normal way of talking) "It rides like a [expletive] couch!"  I thought "oh no!", until his next sentence, "Yeah, I really really love it!  Thank you!"  So, to at least one person, "rides like a couch" is a good thing.

With modern super-steels, even the thinnest tubes can be strong enough for a 300 lb rider.  The question is, will it be rigid enough?  Some giant clydesdales will actually say Yes to that question, if they don't mind some wiggle and possibly the chain rubbing on the F. der. cage under hard pedaling.  Most guys that big will want something a bit firmer underfoot though.  A framebuilder who only knows your riding style and weight, but not your tolerance for wiggle and sway, will normally go a bit on on the heavy side to be safe.

Though it can be expensive to experiment, the best way to really know how light you can go is to go too far -- ride one that is definitely too flexible for your taste.  Then bump it up a notch or too.  Ideally ride someone else's bikes, rather than have a custom bike made and then have to sell that at a loss if it is too whippy.

Some people creep up on it from the too-heavy side, getting a little lighter and more springy with each new bike they get.

But either way, only you can decide what's the right amount of "give" for you.  Me, I am big and fat, and when I was a racer I was definitely on the sprinter side of the fast-twitch spectrum, but I still prefer a fairly flexible frame.  I'm not really trying to win over any of the "stiffer is better" crowd to this way of thinking, but I do want them to know that there is a debate.  So many times I have heard the stiffness worshipers state their case as if it were obvious and not debatable.

One factor to keep in mind is that if you have gained weight from a sedentary job and not enough cycling, then you are probably also weak!  That argues in favor of more flex.  As you ride more and get strong, you will also likely be losing weight.  So the same degree of frame stiffness might still be right for you.

-Mark 

[Mark Guglielmana]

What I'm hearing is...

yada, yada, yada, I'm too fat. 

😉

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[Lee Legrand]

I am fat. 😖

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[Chris Cullum]

On Nov 9, 2017 11:03 AM, "Eric Keller" <eeke...@psu.edu> wrote:

I guess it depends on how you think your weight is trending.  If there is no hope of ever losing weight, I would go with spirit for lugs and the rene singer lugs.  They are a fairly faithful rendering of Nervex Pro for OS tubing.

I think you're thinking of the Newvex lugs that are a faithful rendering of the Newvex Pro for OS tubing. The Rene Singer are obviously Herself/Singer inspired lugs.

[William Lindsay]

So, Mark B, would it be fair to say the following:

1.  every custom frameset is a guess.  The best you can possibly do is make an educated guess

2.  If you've ridden a LOT of bikes, knew everything there is to know about those bikes, and formulated a detailed and complete opinion about all of them, then you are pretty educated, and can probably decide with some accuracy the tubing from which your custom should be built

3.  If you haven't ridden lots of bikes, don't know much about those bikes, and have no concrete opinions about those bikes, you aren't in a position to make an educated guess about what your custom should be

In other words, it's a great case for N+1. 

1.  Buy another bike

2.  Ride it

3.  Figure out what objective properties of that bike make you like or dislike it

4.  If there are enough dislikes that you don't want to keep riding it, sell it

5.  If you think you are smart enough to specify a custom, go for it

6.  If not custom, go to 1. 

Is this a reasonable summary approach?  

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Mark Guglielmana]

Everything William wrote except selling the bike. If you sell it, you're stuck at 1. 

All kidding aside, unless you've got more money than sense, it's a good idea to try a few bikes so you have some idea what you like and don't like before plunking down cash for a custom.

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[Lee Legrand]

I hope this does not becoming a d#$k fight between Bill and Mark.

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[Chris Cullum]

On Nov 9, 2017 16:45, "Chris Cullum" <cullum...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Nov 9, 2017 11:03 AM, "Eric Keller" <eeke...@psu.edu> wrote:

I guess it depends on how you think your weight is trending.  If there is no hope of ever losing weight, I would go with spirit for lugs and the rene singer lugs.  They are a fairly faithful rendering of Nervex Pro for OS tubing.

I think you're thinking of the Newvex lugs that are a faithful rendering of the Newvex Pro for OS tubing. The Rene Singer are obviously Herself/Singer inspired lugs.

Ok thanks autocorrect. That's clear now. Newvex and Nervex. Herse/Singer.

[Mark Bulgier]

William Lindsay wrote:

> So, Mark B, would it be fair to say the following: [details snipped]

Yes, that's a good plan if you are on a quest to find The Perfect Bicycle.

Most people will settle for A Pretty Good Bike, and I'd say unless you have unusual needs or quirks, you can probably come pretty close to that on your first try. 

Back when I made custom frames for a living, I was naturally inclined to think lots of people should get custom frames.  (Mine, of course.)  But since getting out of that line of work, I see a lot of custom builders who aren't sufficiently reliable/trustworthy, and I see a lot of riders whose sizing and other needs would be met just fine with an off-the-rack machine.  Add to that the wait time, and the fact that you can't test-ride it before plunking down your money, and I'm leaning toward thinking most people would be crazy to go custom.

Except some of my best friends are crazy people. Sometimes the heart wants what the heart wants.  I would never try to talk someone out of waiting for a custom from their fave builder, if that's what they want for ANY reason, rational or not.

Oh and wanting small diameter thinwall tubing might require a custom, since there are so few off-the-rack frames made that way.

-Mark

[Mark Bulgier]

Lee Legrand wrote:

> I hope this does not becoming a d#$k fight between Bill and Mark.

Oh, you'd like that, wouldn't you?! 

But we're not going to give you the satisfaction.

☺

-Mark 

[Lee Legrand]

No fight, no fight.

--

[Reed Kennedy]

Frustrated by the lack of data around ideal tubing for taller / heavier folks I am currently in the process of taking more extreme version of Mark and Bill’s advice. I’m 6’3, 200 pounds and I currently have:

9/6/9 OS, 60cm - Velo Routier

8/5/8 OS, 62cm - MAP

10/7/10 SD, 62cm - Ross Signature

I’m about to build up:

8/6/8 SD TT, 10/7/10 SD DT, 64 cm - 1979 Trek 710

7/4/7 SD TT, 8/5/8 SD DT, 60cm - Rawland Nord

At least in theory these bikes run the gamut of available tubing thicknesses and flexibilities. 

My hope is to find at least one that is too flexible for me. Then I’ll know what I like. 

Just getting started, so nothing to report yet but I’ll check back once I’ve spent some time with them. 

Best,

Reed

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[Philip Kim]

Reed what tubing is your Fitz?

[Chris Cullum]

On Nov 9, 2017 23:10, "Reed Kennedy" <re...@notfine.com> wrote:

Frustrated by the lack of data around ideal tubing for taller / heavier folks I am currently in the process of taking more extreme version of Mark and Bill’s advice. I’m 6’3, 200 pounds and I currently have:

9/6/9 OS, 60cm - Velo Routier

8/5/8 OS, 62cm - MAP

10/7/10 SD, 62cm - Ross Signature

I’m about to build up:

8/6/8 SD TT, 10/7/10 SD DT, 64 cm - 1979 Trek 710

7/4/7 SD TT, 8/5/8 SD DT, 60cm - Rawland Nord

Does the Nordavinden really have a Syd diameter 7/4/7 TT in the 60cm size? I thought the XL sizes had a thicker TT.

[Reed Kennedy]

Here are the tubing specs for my Fitz, straight from John:

TT 8/5/7 true temper ox
DT8/5/8      "       "        "
ST 9/6         "       "      Verus
HT.9             "       "       OX
Columbus CS
Nova SS
Columbus fork blades
Reynolds steer tube
Paragon rear drop outs
Son connector-less front DO
Pacenti lugs and fork crown

I didn't mention it specifically because it is more or less the same as my MAP and I've put more miles on the MAP at this point. (Though hopefully that will be changing soon!)

Best,

Reed

On Sat, Nov 11, 2017 at 12:30 AM Philip Kim <phili...@gmail.com> wrote:

Reed what tubing is your Fitz?

[Reed Kennedy]

On Sat, Nov 11, 2017 at 10:13 AM Chris Cullum <cullum...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Nov 9, 2017 23:10, "Reed Kennedy" <re...@notfine.com> wrote:

Frustrated by the lack of data around ideal tubing for taller / heavier folks I am currently in the process of taking more extreme version of Mark and Bill’s advice. I’m 6’3, 200 pounds and I currently have:

9/6/9 OS, 60cm - Velo Routier

8/5/8 OS, 62cm - MAP

10/7/10 SD, 62cm - Ross Signature

I’m about to build up:

8/6/8 SD TT, 10/7/10 SD DT, 64 cm - 1979 Trek 710

7/4/7 SD TT, 8/5/8 SD DT, 60cm - Rawland Nord

Does the Nordavinden really have a Syd diameter 7/4/7 TT in the 60cm size? I thought the XL sizes had a thicker TT.

Great question. Their old blog post specifically says that the same tubing is used for all sizes:

http://rawlandcycles.blogspot.com/2012/07/nordavinden-geometry-and-specifications.html

I'd love to confirm that with Rawland, but with all that's going on with them that seems easier said than done. 

I'd also love to read more about this frame and how it was developed on rCOG, but of course that is no longer available. 

If anyone has any insight into Rawland Nord tubing specs for larger sizes I'm all ears!

Best,

Reed

[Mark Bulgier]

Chris Cullum asked:

> > Does the Nordavinden really have a Std diameter 7/4/7 TT in the 60cm size? I thought the XL sizes had a thicker TT.

Reed Kennedy replied: 

> Great question. Their old blog post specifically says that the same tubing is used for all sizes:

> I'd love to confirm that [...] but [...] that seems easier said than done. 

Reed, if you want help sawing it up and measuring, feel free to bring it over to my place.  I'll supply the hacksaw blades and beer -- or something stronger if needed.

(Sawzall and whiskey?  Cutting torch and Fentanyl?)

-Mark

 

[Chris Cullum]

Reed, tell Mark to bring his brazing torch and some S&S couplers too and you're in.

-Mark

 

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[Reed Kennedy]

Ha! Tempting, but I hope you'll forgive me if I ride it just a bit first!

I looked in to this a bit more and found the following:

http://rawlandcycles.blogspot.com/2012/07/production-nordavinden-first-build.html

As you can see from that first link, Rawland had received and built up a final production Nord by July 9th 2012. All design should obviously be set at this point. 

http://rawlandcycles.blogspot.com/2012/07/nordavinden-geometry-and-specifications.html

Three days later, on July 12th 2012 Sean posted that all sizes have a 7/4/7 standard diameter top tube. 

http://rawlandcycles.blogspot.com/2012/08/nordavinden-customer-testimony.html

Then, about a month later they start posting customer first impressions, which tells me bikes started shipping to customers soon after the July 12th post with the specs. 

So, barring a mid-production change,  intentional dishonestly by Rawland, or deception by their overseas factory it's safe to say the largest Nord sizes do also use a 7/4/7 SD top tube. 

And I sure hope so! That's why I bought it!

Best,

Reed

[Reed Kennedy]

Appologies for bumping an old post, but I reached out to Sean via Instagram and he confirmed that the Nordavinden does indeed have a 7/4/7 top tube even in the largest 60 cm size. So there you go, straight from the source.

And if I may editorialize for a moment, I’m having a grand old time on this bike. Probably one of the best dollars-to-smiles ratios I have managed.  

Best,

Reed