Masi Speciale Randonneur

[Mike Schiller]

This bike was brought up on another thread, but I was surprised to find out that the 2018 version is low trail with a 65 mm rake fork and trail in the high 30's.  The prior year model was not.

https://masibikes.com/products/speciale-randonneur-650b-2018

It would be great if it was available as a frameset but it still looks like a great bike that fits 47 mm tires and fenders.  So I'm guessing a 2.1" knobby would probably fit w/out fenders.

Kudos to Masi for taking a chance on low trail. 

~mike

Carlsbad Ca.

[Max]

Wow... this looks pretty good on paper and in pictures...

[Ian A]

Really nice - no mention of tube selection. I wonder how light they went with that.

I wonder if RTP on 26" wheels would work? Could be an interesting choice as a travel bike.

IanA

[Paul Sherman]

I stumbled across this the other day and was very, very pleasantly surprised. Given that the actual widths of the Compass SBH and RTP are not actually that different, I don't think fitting the latter would be a problem (assuming you don't mind a lower BB). I hope they start selling it as a frameset, I'd give it some serious thought.

Paul
Beijing

[Sukho Goff]

Has anyone pulled the trigger on this bike from this list (or elsewhere that we know of?) Kinda scratching my head how you don't seem to hear much about it. We're truly in a supple, low trail renaissance if a production bike with these numbers that looks this good (and on sale for $1299 complete) is ignored because there's so much good stuff out there right now. I get that it's not high end, but sheesh for entry level into the supple life, it looks like a winner to me! I'm imagining running my beloved Thunderburt Liteskins on this thing and just loving it.
Sukho in PDX

https://masibikes.com/collections/ride-into-spring-sale/products/speciale-randonneur-650b-2018?variant=53269713927

[Igor Belopolsky]

From what I've read people enjoy this bike. That's a good price for a complete bike. Seems like a better bike than the new Surly + road

[Randall Daniels]

I have one, I rode it for a few weeks and now it's just sitting in my living room behind all my other bikes. I liked it at first but once I rode my other bike I noticed how the Masi frame was overly stiff and how heavy it really was so I stopped enjoying riding it pretty quickly. I'm planning to sell it for a significant loss as soon as the weather warms. 

I think the low-trail randonneur does not translate to a production bike using disc brakes. The frame feels like it was built with tubing intended for fully loaded touring and rides very harsh and dead. I have a few pictures and some positive thoughts here: https://drandalls.wordpress.com/category/2018-masi-speciale-randonneur/

Also, IMO the Horizons are not a particularly supple tire, especially the new, narrower production versions that are coming on these bikes. Switchback Hills or Gravel King Slicks would most likely be an improvement but I'd rather not invest any more time or money into the bike.

Sorry to be such a downer, I had really high hopes for the bike and in the end was very disappointed by it.

[Randall Daniels]

One more thought, I took the wheelset and tires from the Masi and rode it quite a bit on my Soma Double Cross disc. The latter rode significantly better and was much closer to riding a nice road bike than a touring bike. I think the production companies entering the all-road space in 2018 are overbuilding their bikes. I don't know the Masi's frame weight but I saw the Midnight Special frame is almost 5 and a half pounds, looking at the Masi's total weight I wouldn't be surprised if it was this heavy or even heavier. That's close to a full pound heavier than the Double Cross disc frame, and there's most likely more weight in the fork too. 

I think a lot of people are going to go into buying one of these bikes expecting something they're not going to get at all. 

[Igor Belopolsky]

honestly if someone buys one of these thinking it'll ride like the bikes Jan writes about, they're surely misguided

[Sukho Goff]

This is actually great feedback, thanks Randall. Interestingly after I posted this I read what Steve P had posted with links to a guy who was reviewing it on C&V. He reported his 53cm sized rig weighed 28.75 lbs (with no pedals or accessories). I was sort of taken aback by this, as my "beater" Novara Mazama 650b conversion (with Wolverine fork) weighs the same WITH pedals and a dynamo set up.

However, my "Mazama-rine" has completely surprised me ever since I built it up last year because it doesn't ride "heavy"; in fact it rides "lighter" than my 20lb carbon gravel bike; which has me totally stumped. I run the heavier non-light skin Tburts on wide SS Blunts and they're meaty on those rims.

From what Randall is saying, it kind of goes to show how overly built cheaper production bikes continue to be; but then my experience with the Mazama-rine counters that because it also was in the same price range as this Masi (actually it was cheaper; closed out at around $900 complete I think). I guess you just never know until you get something and ride it.

Sukho

[Randall Daniels]

That's not what I was trying to express, which is why I compared it to the Soma. The Masi does not ride like a road bike, although to be honest I am conflating the more recent Midnight Special review from the Radavist with the ad copy for the Masi. Both lead the reader to believe in a fat-tired road bike that loses next to nothing to a regular road bike, and that's just not true. 

I bought the bike expecting it to ride closer to something like a Soma or All-City cross bike or gravel bike. Not exactly going to plane but still reasonably flexible and comfortable, most definitely not stout like a loaded touring bike.

Those are my posts from the bikeforums C&V, I was pretty surprised by the overall weight myself. My Soma with the same wheelset and Sora drivetrain weighs 25 pounds.

[John Hawrylak]

Randall,

Thanks for the frank comments.   I will not pursue the Masi anymore, based on your experience

John Hawrylak

Woodstown NJ

[William Lindsay]

This might be a completely left-field suggestion, but I saw this closeout pricing on a bike that I've used as a 650B all-road. 

Jenson is running a sale on bikes.  Among them is the Niner RLT9 Steel.  It's a 853 frame, carbon fork which takes racks and fenders.  Hydro Disc brake, through axle.  It comes with 700c wheels, but I run my aluminum RLT9 with 650Bx43mm tires plus fenders. The steel one allegedly has better clearance to fit Horizons or 48mm compass tires.  They only have it in a couple sizes, but $2200 complete is a pretty good deal:

http://www.jensonusa.com/Niner-RLT-9-Steel-2-Star-Apex-Bike?_br_psugg_q=niner+rlt

they still have it in my size (59cm).....

It is neither low trail, nor retro-looking. 

Bill Lindsay
El Cerrito, CA

[Mike Schiller]

Kinda curious about your size and weight?  Sometimes a stiffer bike is right for larger riders but too stiff for lighter riders.    I have not ridden the Masi and have no idea what sort of tubing they used.  

My only frame of reference is that I had a Soma Double Cross circa 2007 ( Reynolds 631) and I found it fairly stiff (I am 6' and 200 lbs)  It was great with panniers but compared to the Riv Ram that replaced it was noticeably stiffer.   Now I ride low trail customs and find a 9-6-9 standard tube frame perfect for lightly loaded rides.

~mike

On Wednesday, March 7, 2018 at 7:24:26 AM UTC-8, Randall Daniels wrote:

[Randall Daniels]

I'm 5'9" and between 175-185 pounds, the Masi is a size 53. The Double Cross disc is a 2015 with the Tange "Prestige"/CrMo tubing. I rode it with the same front rack and bag/load as well but I don't think that made much difference in feel, apart from obvious floppy steering differences. 

[Winston Lumpkins]

I believe Jan will be reviewing this bike in the spring issue of BQ....  That could be amusing.  

[Andy Bailey Goodell]

Probably less ideal, but also this: http://www.breezerbikes.com/bikes/details/doppler-pro

​ is $1100 for a full 650b bike with fenders over Horizons if someone just wants a no-conversion entry into 650.

I bought some Horizons on ibob/650b used - I think seller said they had 800 miles on them. I rode another 4,000 miles on them and the rear has some longitudinal cracking so I swapped them out. Maybe they aren't super rando quality, but they've been perfect for my commutes and the price was right.

I also have a couple Somas including the Double Cross. I never thought of it was thin wall or a high end bike, but it's been great for winter commutes, touring, and even did a few rando rides including a 440km fleche on it and found it sufficient. Though I'd definitely take my Stag now if I were doing that again. I tend to find bike differences rather subtle, so I have a feeling like the Masi wouldn't bother me if I just wanted a decent looking 650 and no one here had something better to sell.

Andy in NH

[rcnute]

The price is not quite as competitive but there's also the Rawland xSogn:https://rawlandcycles.com/products/rawland-xsogn-complete-bicycle

Ryan

[Mark in Beacon]

From Mr. Heine's blog on the Spring 2018 issue:

It’s exciting to see a BQ-inspired bike at an affordable price point. For $ 1420, the Masi Speciale Randonneur features wide tires, a low-trail geometry, and even metal fenders. How does it ride on the road? We tested it to find out.

On Wednesday, March 7, 2018 at 12:14:50 PM UTC-5, Igor Belopolsky wrote: honestly if someone buys one of these thinking it'll ride like the bikes Jan writes about, they're surely misguided

[Steve Palincsar]

I have no doubt whatsoever that it steers just like the "bikes Jan writes about".  We'll know how Jan found it riding on the road shortly, perhaps a couple of weeks, but the reviews posted by owners to date would seem to indicate the frame is stoutly overbuilt and the fork is very, very stiff on account of the disc brakes and so it rides harshly.   Nothing's for nothing, and it would seem that the price for disc brakes is a harsh-riding fork.

-- 
Steve Palincsar
Alexandria, Virginia 
USA

[Mark in Beacon]

Maybe. Although after reviewing it, Jan bought the Firefly, a bike with discs. I doubt he would have been so enthusiastic if the ride was unduly harsh. Also reviewed in the Spring issue is the (high trail) Caletti Monstercross, also disc brakes.

On Thursday, March 8, 2018 at 2:34:48 PM UTC-5, Steve Palincsar wrote: I have no doubt whatsoever that it steers just like the "bikes Jan writes about".  We'll know how Jan found it riding on the road shortly, perhaps a couple of weeks, but the reviews posted by owners to date would seem to indicate the frame is stoutly overbuilt and the fork is very, very stiff on account of the disc brakes and so it rides harshly.   Nothing's for nothing, and it would seem that the price for disc brakes is a harsh-riding fork.

[Alex Wetmore]

Fork compliance is a whole lot less important when you are riding 47mm tires than it is with 30mm or smaller tires.  When BQ did the fork compliance tests more than a decade ago most people on the BQ team were primarily riding 700C wheels with tires in the 28-32mm range (like what was tested in the original tire tests).

Disk brakes require some tradeoffs.  They are heavier than rim brakes and will always make for heavier/stouter forks. 

Also, it would surprise me if the Masi wasn't stout, but there are few production steel frames being made at this price point that aren't stout.  A $1400 complete bike isn't going to use heat treated tubing, so the only option not to make it pretty stout would be using standard diameter tubing.  That is also especially uncommon today, for reasons that I can't explain.  On paper (I haven't ridden one yet) the Masi SR looks a lot nicer than a Surly Cross-Check or LHT at a similar price.

alex

---

From: 65...@googlegroups.com <65...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Mark in Beacon <absolut...@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 8, 2018 1:23:22 PM
To: 650b
Subject: Re: [650B] Re: Masi Speciale Randonneur

 

Maybe. Although after reviewing it, Jan bought the Firefly, a bike with discs. I doubt he would have been so enthusiastic if the ride was unduly harsh. Also reviewed in the Spring issue is the (high trail) Caletti Monstercross, also disc brakes.

On Thursday, March 8, 2018 at 2:34:48 PM UTC-5, Steve Palincsar wrote: I have no doubt whatsoever that it steers just like the "bikes Jan writes about".  We'll know how Jan found it riding on the road shortly, perhaps a couple of weeks, but the reviews posted by owners to date would seem to indicate the frame is stoutly overbuilt and the fork is very, very stiff on account of the disc brakes and so it rides harshly.   Nothing's for nothing, and it would seem that the price for disc brakes is a harsh-riding fork.

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[Kieran J]

Right. I think the key difference there is a Ti bike with a high-end carbon fork is probably, in reality, pretty compliant. I've heard quite a few people speak of carbon forks' dampening qualities and lack of harshness - even compared to decent vintage steel forks. Given Jan's fondness for it, the FF's frame must be similarly compliant and comfortable. 

OTOH, a low-end stout steel frameset further overbuilt to accommodate the forces of discs likely bears little resemblance to the above in terms of riding characteristics and comfort.

KJ

[Steve Palincsar]

On 03/08/2018 04:54 PM, Kieran J wrote:
> Right. I think the key difference there is a Ti bike with a high-end
> carbon fork is probably, in reality, pretty compliant.

Jan's Firefly has a custom steel fork.

[Kieran J]

Yes. What I mean is, depending on the materials used, evidently it is possible to have relatively un-harsh disc fork.

KJ

[Alex Wetmore]

The loads and forces are against making a "compliant" disk fork.  To be compliant it needs to flex vertically under light loads, with that load spread across the whole fork blade.  This is normally done by making the ends of the blades small in diameter and with a small radius rake bend to make the blades as long as possible.

A disk fork needs to be stiff between the dropout and the brake mount, that is a very short lever arm that very high brake loads are being passed through.  It needs to be as stiff as a regular fork blade above that transfer loads to the steerer and headtube. 

Since the disk fork needs to be much stiffer down low you can't get the compliance the normal way.  A good way to get it would be with a suspension mechanism, but that is heavy.  The other good place to get compliance is with wide tires.  Jan rides the Firefly with 50mm tires, so the fork doesn't need to have the same flexibility characteristics as the Singer that he rode with 30mm tires to provide similar comfort.

You can easily see in photos of Jan's Firefly that the fork blades are straight (not curved) and 15mm or more at the bottom, compared to 11mm for his Singer.  There is no way that the fork is flexible in the same way as his Singer or Rene Herse.  Hahn's Bontrager has much thinner (also straight) blades, but is probably lighter than production bike companies would be comfortable with.  

alex

---

From: 65...@googlegroups.com <65...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Kieran J <kjo...@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 8, 2018 2:34:13 PM

To: 650b
Subject: Re: [650B] Re: Masi Speciale Randonneur

[Andrew Squirrel]

"Fork compliance is a whole lot less important when you are riding 47mm tires than it is with 30mm or smaller tires."

I've found this to be very true now that my two low-trail bikes are setup at opposite ends of the spectrum.
The Elephant NFE has a relatively stiff unicrown fork with 47 WTB Horizons setup tubeless and hydro disc brakes.
The Rawland Stag has a custom Jeff Lyon fork using Jan's most supple Kaisei “Toei Special” fork blades with a nice bend, canti brakes & 42mm Compass Babyshoe pass setup tubeless.

I honestly expected the Jeff Lyon fork & tubeless babyshoes to be the more compliant of the two bikes but, nope, its the Elephant NFE with those wide tires that eats up potholes and smooth out the bumps in the road.
I still believe lightweight, thin gauge bikes ride faster and ultimately better for the long randonneuring rides but when it comes to soaking up rough roads I'm a firm believer that tire size is a more important element than fork compliance based upon my experience with these two bikes.

[satanas]

Thanks Andrew - very useful. :-)

Have you tried anything narrower on the disk fork and if so was the ride much worse - i.e., noticeably hard?

Later,
Stephen

[Andrew Squirrel]

I have only tried wider (50mm Thunder Burts) at this point.

[Randall Daniels]

Fork compliance is really the issue I ran into. I was at the point where I had the pressure in the horizons low enough that they're just barely keeping the sidewalls up while turning and I'm getting squirm while climbing out of the saddle, but the ride is still fairly harsh. Nowhere near as nice as other steel disc forks I've experienced. The fork blades, directly above the fork end slot measured 17mm on the Masi and 14mm on the Double Cross disc, also have a 1987 Schwinn Le Tour that measures 13.5mm. Maybe I'm just at the point where I have more time/money than sense and am just tilting at whatever windmill seems convenient.

I will say, as noted above; the bike handles/steers very nicely. I did a mixed terrain alleycat over the weekend which featured a lot of mud, wet vegetation, sand, and other less than ideal riding surfaces. Riding at speed was mind-blowing, like the bike was plugged directly into my brain and went exactly where I wanted. I rode it with the horizons and while they were a little slippery, the steering more than made up for it. I have no doubt that riding a mid/high trail bike, even with knobby tires, would have been significantly slower. Due to all the checkpoint whiskey shots I was pretty buzzed by the end. Which, after doing a little more reading online, makes me wonder if perhaps some level of minor inebriation is necessary to completely unlock the low-trail randonneur puzzle box?

Regardless, the posts in this thread inspired me to give it another shot so although I've probably shared enough of my opinions I'm going to ride the bike a bit more and see if I can make it work. 

[Mark in Beacon]

Didn't you give it enough shots already?

On Monday, March 12, 2018 at 10:47:37 PM UTC-4, Randall Daniels wrote: Due to all the checkpoint whiskey shots I was pretty buzzed by the end.....

[Alex Wetmore]

Have you tried other tires?  Just swap the front tire or wheel off of another 650B bike (assuming that you have one).

Retail WTB Horizons have fairly stiff sidewalls, is there any chance that Masi is using a OEM version that is even a little tougher?

alex

---

From: 65...@googlegroups.com <65...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Randall Daniels <randal...@gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, March 12, 2018 7:47:37 PM

To: 650b
Subject: Re: [650B] Re: Masi Speciale Randonneur

Fork compliance is really the issue I ran into. I was at the point where I had the pressure in the horizons low enough that they're just barely keeping the sidewalls up while turning and I'm getting squirm while climbing out of the saddle, but the ride is still fairly harsh. Nowhere near as nice as other steel disc forks I've experienced. The fork blades, directly above the fork end slot measured 17mm on the Masi and 14mm on the Double Cross disc, also have a 1987 Schwinn Le Tour that measures 13.5mm. Maybe I'm just at the point where I have more time/money than sense and am just tilting at whatever windmill seems convenient.

I will say, as noted above; the bike handles/steers very nicely. I did a mixed terrain alleycat over the weekend which featured a lot of mud, wet vegetation, sand, and other less than ideal riding surfaces. Riding at speed was mind-blowing, like the bike was plugged directly into my brain and went exactly where I wanted. I rode it with the horizons and while they were a little slippery, the steering more than made up for it. I have no doubt that riding a mid/high trail bike, even with knobby tires, would have been significantly slower. Due to all the checkpoint whiskey shots I was pretty buzzed by the end. Which, after doing a little more reading online, makes me wonder if perhaps some level of minor inebriation is necessary to completely unlock the low-trail randonneur puzzle box?

Regardless, the posts in this thread inspired me to give it another shot so although I've probably shared enough of my opinions I'm going to ride the bike a bit more and see if I can make it work. 

--

[Sukho Goff]

 "...perhaps some level of minor inebriation is necessary to completely unlock the low-trail randonneur puzzle box?"

That's awesome. I might have to try that.

BTW just read Jan's review of this bike in the new BQ. Pretty interesting.

Sukho in PDX

[Steve Palincsar]

For those of us on the tail end of the BQ Distribution Curve, could you summarize his findings?   How closely did he track Randall's observations?

[Winston Lumpkins]

I worked in a shop that sold Masi bikes & they where at the time stocking almost everything with a variety of 30 tpi clement tires.  The only ones Clement sells to normal folks are 60 & 120 tpi.  Down-specced tires are a Masi MO. 
 
I would be interested to hear what Randall thinks with a different tire... 

[Randall Daniels]

That's interesting about the potential OEM tire differences, I didn't know that was a thing to do. The only other 650b tire I have is a blown out Hetre from my first foray into 650bing. But since I liked the gravel king slicks in 700cx38 so much I went ahead and ordered the 650bx48 version yesterday and will see how they ride when they get here later this week.

I'm also interested to see the BQ review. The teaser photo looked like the only part changed for the review was the saddle, which is odd since the handlebars are so terrible I expected to see a compass model used instead.

[Steve Palincsar]

The thing with handlebars is, your "terrible" may be someone else's
"wonderful."  You really never know until you try one.  A bit like
saddles, only far worse (and more expensive) installation procedure.

That said, I do wish someone who actually has the issue in hand would at
least post a paragraph-long precis of the review.

[Alex Wetmore]

The BQ review is not a complete review, it is more like a preview.  It is based on 100 miles of testing by Jan and Mark.  He does talk about component swaps that he'd do, including swapping bars.

The review is overall positive and excited about a $1420 bike with good handling and decent parts.  It isn't as fast as Mark's 6 Hands custom bike, but it is also about 5x cheaper.

As always this is a good issue and if you are interested in more details I would go borrow it from your library or buy it.  I'm only halfway through myself.  I liked reading Natsuko's article talking about riding on mountain vs all-road bicycles and the article on Seattle builders Davidson and Kullaway.

I'm still excited by the Masi, it is everything that the original Kogswell P/R should have been, with what appears to be similar tubing too.  Instead of a $750 frameset ($600 in 2006 dollars) we get a $1400 complete bike.  That makes it a lot easier for anyone to go ride a low trail all road bicycle and see what it is like.

alex

---

From: 65...@googlegroups.com <65...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Randall Daniels <randal...@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2018 6:29:53 AM

To: 650b
Subject: Re: [650B] Re: Masi Speciale Randonneur

That's interesting about the potential OEM tire differences, I didn't know that was a thing to do. The only other 650b tire I have is a blown out Hetre from my first foray into 650bing. But since I liked the gravel king slicks in 700cx38 so much I went ahead and ordered the 650bx48 version yesterday and will see how they ride when they get here later this week.

I'm also interested to see the BQ review. The teaser photo looked like the only part changed for the review was the saddle, which is odd since the handlebars are so terrible I expected to see a compass model used instead.

--

[Randall Daniels]

For a lot of handlebars, sure. For the dirt-drop-esque abominations that comes stock on the Masi? No way, the bars are junk and a poor component choice, especially for a low-trail bike intended to ride mainly on the road; the hand position on the drops is significantly wider than the hoods. This offers nothing but less control and uncomfortable hand position, switching from drops to hoods feels weird both from a comfortable and a handling perspective.

Review sounds about like the Soma GR review, not in-depth but happy about a cheap(er)/approachable entry in low-trail riding. I mean that's exactly how it worked for me. I dithered for 3 years due to the high entry cost for a low-trail frameset but the Masi as a complete bike worked economically. Now that I know I like the low-trail handling I can sell it and get a higher end, more expensive frame that I would not have dived into first. 

[Steve Palincsar]

On 03/14/2018 11:08 AM, Alex Wetmore wrote:

The BQ review is not a complete review, it is more like a preview.  It is based on 100 miles of testing by Jan and Mark.  He does talk about component swaps that he'd do, including swapping bars.

The review is overall positive and excited about a $1420 bike with good handling and decent parts.  It isn't as fast as Mark's 6 Hands custom bike, but it is also about 5x cheaper.

I'm still excited by the Masi, it is everything that the original Kogswell P/R should have been, with what appears to be similar tubing too.  Instead of a $750 frameset ($600 in 2006 dollars) we get a $1400 complete bike.  That makes it a lot easier for anyone to go ride a low trail all road bicycle and see what it is like.

I do hope so, and I hope Masi dealers actually stock them, so people can try before they commit. 

Still waiting for my BQ, but that's normal: it takes a week or more to make its way across the country to the metro DC area.  The comparison with the Kogswell P/R is, I think, very apt and I'm hoping that people for whom the tubing seems a bit stout (as was the case with the 1st gen P/R) they give it a try as a front loading touring bike.  There the additional stiffness doesn't work against you so much, in fact maybe it actually helps, and there aren't many other low trail touring bikes to choose from.

[Rick Shelton, Woodstock GA]

https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F173217325222

I think for what they’re charging for shipping, it might show up in it’s own limousine.

Still, fair deal until the feeding frenzy begins.

Rick Shelton
Woodstock, GA

[Sukho Goff]

Just great. That's my size.
Sukho in PDX

[Scott Arenz]

Hmm... Seller has a feedback rating of (1). Photos are stock from the Masi web site, showing a different size than the listing. That is, except for one, showing the bike dubiously boxed with the rear fender still attached and chafing its own access hole. Caveat emptor... 

With a minimum cost of $1130 shipped, it isn't much of a savings off of a new, warranted and returnable bike.

Scott 

Atlanta, GA

[Jon B]

In response to Steve's request (I owe him a favor), here are a few highlights from the BQ review:

He describes it as an “attractive, no-nonsense bike.”  Compared to the responsive custom bike with similar geometry, he found it “solid and heavy," but later described getting used to the stiffer frame and found it “becoming more fun the longer I rode.”  The fork was indeed stiff, but a bike in this price range is not going to have a flexible fork, even with rim brakes.  He liked the handling and the included fenders, and there were good fender lines.  He also praised the mid-fork braze-ons, Tiagra components, and low-trail geometry.  With pump, pedals, bottle cages, and fenders, it weighed 30.9 lbs. 

I think the point was that this bike is not comparable to a high-end bicycle, but makes a low-trail bike with wide tires and (stock) fenders available at a very reasonable price point.  If you are looking for a flexible fork, light weight, and planing, it might not satisfy you, but probably no new bike at this price will. 

I hope that provides enough information without violating any copyright.  

Jon Blum

[Steve Palincsar]

On 03/15/2018 01:41 PM, Scott Arenz wrote:

Hmm... Seller has a feedback rating of (1). Photos are stock from the Masi web site, showing a different size than the listing. That is, except for one, showing the bike dubiously boxed with the rear fender still attached and chafing its own access hole. Caveat emptor... 

With a minimum cost of $1130 shipped, it isn't much of a savings off of a new, warranted and returnable bike.

Assuming you can find one, that is.   Around here, Masi dealers are rather thin upon the ground, and when a friend of mine inquired earlier this year she was told no they weren't going to stock that model, sure they could order it for her but she would have to pay in advance and if it didn't fit or she didn't like it she could return it for store credit.  As one would expect she passed.  Over at the Performance store she looked at a Fuji Jari and was told if she didn't like it for any reason whatsoever she could return it for her full money back anytime for a full year.  She bought the Fuji.

[John Hawrylak]

Jon

Thanks for taking the time to summarize the BQ article.  Sounded fairly benign.

John Hawrylak

Woodstown NJ
 

[Alex Wetmore]

A friend pointed out that Masi appears to be listening to the feedback and made a new "Elite" version of this bike:

https://masibikes.com/collections/adventure/products/speciale-randonneur-elite-2019

Speciale Randonneur Elite 2019 masibikes.com

Dynohub, through axle front, compact (48/32) gearing, and aluminum fenders are now standard, and a number of the components got nice upgrades too.  It is a smart looking production bike.

It would be nice if it had standard fork mounts for a porteur or handlebar bag rack, but that is a pretty small nit at this price point.

alex

---

From: Alex Wetmore
Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2018 8:08:31 AM
To: Randall Daniels; 650b

Subject: Re: [650B] Re: Masi Speciale Randonneur

[Randall Daniels]

After seeing the tubing specs in Reed Kennedy's ultrasonic measurement spreadsheet I wonder if the Cromor frame is going to offer anything the regular tubeset doesn't. Lighter weight?

That's great to see they've made a lot of positive changes but wish they would have toned down the fork - something more in line with the Soma low-trail disc conversion fork would have been great. That fork is just about perfect.

[Matt White]

I doubt there is any actual difference between the frames -- the "low end" frame may just omit that from the description to aid with product differentiation.

https://framebuildersupply.com/collections/main-tubes/wall-9-6-9

Looks like a 9/6/9 tube set.

-Matt

[Cary Weitzman]

Randall Daniels wrote:
> After seeing the tubing specs in Reed Kennedy's ultrasonic measurement
> spreadsheet I wonder if the Cromor frame is going to offer anything
> the regular tubeset doesn't. Lighter weight?

Marketing advantage? If they're not saying, I'd not be surprised if the
specs on the Cromor tubing are exactly the same as this year's model. If
it's lighter/thinner walled, then surely they'd be crowing about it.

Possibly going with the brand name means that there's less chance of
heavier substitutions happening during the production run.

I find it strange that the 2 top models, the black and pewter, both are
listed as having "Cromor" frames with thru axles and yet the top model
uses flat mount brakes and the middle model uses IS post mounts. That
means 2 different production runs, for what seems like a negligible
difference on otherwise identical frames.

Cary
PTBO.ON.CA

[Alex Wetmore]

I find it strange that the 2 top models, the black and pewter, both are
listed as having "Cromor" frames with thru axles and yet the top model
uses flat mount brakes and the middle model uses IS post mounts. That
means 2 different production runs, for what seems like a negligible
difference on otherwise identical frames.

It is quite likely that the "non-Elite" version will have this as a running change sometime down the line.  I doubt that they are making two versions of the frame.

I saw someone else digging up tubing specs for what "Cromor" means.  I wouldn't get too excited about them, the frame factories in Taiwan seem to be able to get just about any tubing drawn to the dimensions that they want.  The labels don't mean much.

I was surprised to see that Reed's measurements of the 2018 Masi showed what appears to be an 7/5/7 top tube and 8/6/8 downtube.  I was expecting it to be 9/6/9 all around, because that is what is the best tradeoff in dent resistance and performance for standard 4130 tubing, which is what I assume they use.  The lighter toptube (the 0.5mm part is what matters) should help the ride.

alex

---

From: 65...@googlegroups.com <65...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Cary Weitzman <weitz...@gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2018 10:00 AM

To: 650b
Subject: Re: [650B] Re: Masi Speciale Randonneur

[Chris Cullum]

On Tue, Sep 25, 2018, 08:27 Alex Wetmore, <al...@phred.org> wrote:

A friend pointed out that Masi appears to be listening to the feedback and made a new "Elite" version of this bike:

https://masibikes.com/collections/adventure/products/speciale-randonneur-elite-2019

Speciale Randonneur Elite 2019 masibikes.com

Dynohub, through axle front, compact (48/32) gearing, and aluminum fenders are now standard, and a number of the components got nice upgrades too.  It is a smart looking production bike.

"175W LED headlight"!!

[Matt White]

From my local Masi dealer:

> The first shipment of the 2019 Randonneur Elites are scheduled to arrive at Masi's Ohio warehouse on 10/18.

> On Sep 25, 2018, at 11:08 AM, Chris Cullum <cullum...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> On Tue, Sep 25, 2018, 08:27 Alex Wetmore, <al...@phred.org> wrote:
> A friend pointed out that Masi appears to be listening to the feedback and made a new "Elite" version of this bike:
> https://masibikes.com/collections/adventure/products/speciale-randonneur-elite-2019
>

> Speciale Randonneur Elite 2019
> masibikes.com
>
> Dynohub, through axle front, compact (48/32) gearing, and aluminum fenders are now standard, and a number of the components got nice upgrades too. It is a smart looking production bike.
>
> "175W LED headlight"!!
>
>
>
>
> It would be nice if it had standard fork mounts for a porteur or handlebar bag rack, but that is a pretty small nit at this price point.
>
> alex

> From: Alex Wetmore
> Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2018 8:08:31 AM
> To: Randall Daniels; 650b
> Subject: Re: [650B] Re: Masi Speciale Randonneur
>
> The BQ review is not a complete review, it is more like a preview. It is based on 100 miles of testing by Jan and Mark. He does talk about component swaps that he'd do, including swapping bars.
>
> The review is overall positive and excited about a $1420 bike with good handling and decent parts. It isn't as fast as Mark's 6 Hands custom bike, but it is also about 5x cheaper.
>
> As always this is a good issue and if you are interested in more details I would go borrow it from your library or buy it. I'm only halfway through myself. I liked reading Natsuko's article talking about riding on mountain vs all-road bicycles and the article on Seattle builders Davidson and Kullaway.
>
> I'm still excited by the Masi, it is everything that the original Kogswell P/R should have been, with what appears to be similar tubing too. Instead of a $750 frameset ($600 in 2006 dollars) we get a $1400 complete bike. That makes it a lot easier for anyone to go ride a low trail all road bicycle and see what it is like.
>
> alex

> From: 65...@googlegroups.com <65...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Randall Daniels <randal...@gmail.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2018 6:29:53 AM
> To: 650b
> Subject: Re: [650B] Re: Masi Speciale Randonneur
>
> That's interesting about the potential OEM tire differences, I didn't know that was a thing to do. The only other 650b tire I have is a blown out Hetre from my first foray into 650bing. But since I liked the gravel king slicks in 700cx38 so much I went ahead and ordered the 650bx48 version yesterday and will see how they ride when they get here later this week.
>
> I'm also interested to see the BQ review. The teaser photo looked like the only part changed for the review was the saddle, which is odd since the handlebars are so terrible I expected to see a compass model used instead.
>
>
>

> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "650b" group.
> To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/650b/_g2o1fGxTx0/unsubscribe.
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[Steve Palincsar]

The issue with the Masi Randonneur in the metro DC area last year was
nobody was stocking the model, and the best they could offer people who
wanted to try it was "buy it and if you don't like it we'll give you
store credit."  Performance, on the other hand, was offering "buy it and
if at any time in one full year you decide you don't like it you can
return and get all your money back" on the Fuji Jari, and as a result a
couple of my friends bought them.  Hope it'll be different this year
with this model!

[Matt White]

Oof, that’s rough. Fortunately this dealer (in Seattle) has a 2018 in my size that I can try out before giving them my money.

-m

[Steve Palincsar]

Available in regular and oversize, both .9/.6/.9, but the Masi is OS, right?

-

[Matt White]

That’s what the spreadsheet says. Of course the spreadsheet also says 7/5/7 top tube, so vOv.

-m

> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "650b" group.
> To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/650b/_g2o1fGxTx0/unsubscribe.
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[Reed Kennedy]

On Tue, Sep 25, 2018 at 1:20 PM Matt White <ma...@neglect.us> wrote:

That’s what the spreadsheet says. Of course the spreadsheet also says 7/5/7 top tube, so vOv.

I'm happy to re-do the ultrasonic measurements of Josh's 2018 Masi Randonneur Special if you'd like. It was the first frame I measured. It would be interesting to see if my technique has improved and if my results change at all now that I've used this tool a great deal more.

As for the tubing diameter, I can confirm that now:

Downtube:

102 mm circumference = 32.5 mm diameter.

Standard diameter downtubes are 28.6 mm. Oversize downubes are 31.8 mm. 

(There is a slight offset/spiral of the tape measure and also some paint, which account for the extra 0.7 mm.)

Toptube:

91.7 mm circumference = 29.2 mm diameter. 

Standard diameter top tubes are 25.4 mm. Oversize toptubes are 28.6 mm.

(Again, slight offset of the measuring tape and paint account for the extra 0.6 mm.)

Best,

Reed

 

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "650b" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to 650b+uns...@googlegroups.com.

[Matt White]

Only if it interests you. Alex convinced me that it’s not that crazy that the Masi would have an 8/5/8 top tube and your measurement of the NFE was spot on for the tubing used for that bike.

-m

> On Sep 25, 2018, at 3:38 PM, Reed Kennedy <re...@notfine.com> wrote:
>
> On Tue, Sep 25, 2018 at 1:20 PM Matt White <ma...@neglect.us> wrote:
> That’s what the spreadsheet says. Of course the spreadsheet also says 7/5/7 top tube, so vOv.
>
> I'm happy to re-do the ultrasonic measurements of Josh's 2018 Masi Randonneur Special if you'd like. It was the first frame I measured. It would be interesting to see if my technique has improved and if my results change at all now that I've used this tool a great deal more.
>
> As for the tubing diameter, I can confirm that now:
> Downtube:

> <IMG_3746.jpg>
> 102 mm circumference = 32.5 mm diameter.
> Standard diameter downtubes are 28.6 mm. Oversize downubes are 31.8 mm.
> (There is a slight offset/spiral of the tape measure and also some paint, which account for the extra 0.7 mm.)
>
> Toptube:

[Reed Kennedy]

On Tue, Sep 25, 2018 at 11:01 AM Alex Wetmore <al...@phred.org> wrote:

I was surprised to see that Reed's measurements of the 2018 Masi showed what appears to be an 7/5/7 top tube and 8/6/8 downtube.  I was expecting it to be 9/6/9 all around, because that is what is the best tradeoff in dent resistance and performance for standard 4130 tubing, which is what I assume they use.  The lighter toptube (the 0.5mm part is what matters) should help the ride.

I was also surprised by the relative thinness of the Speciale Randonneur's oversize tubing. I double-checked it at the time, and will check it again next time I get the ultrasonic device and that frame in the same place.

It's perhaps a bit less surprising given that the Speciale Randonneur was almost certainly designed by someone with an appreciation for the research that Jan, yourself, and others have pioneered in BQ. It also seems to target the BQ-reading market segment, at least in part.

What surprises me is that they went with relatively light tubing but didn't publicize it.

All that said, several other OS production frames (Rawland, Rivendell, Cycles Toussaint) also use similar top tubes. If you sort the sheet by the the thickness of the middle of the toptube you end up with 13 OS frames thinner than the Masi SR, 7 OS frames thicker.

Best,

Reed

[John Hawrylak]

Reed

just a suggestion, but could you split the TUBING ol into 2 columns, one for 'diamete'r (SD or OS0 and the other for 'type'.  Would simply sorting

John Hawrylak

Woodstown NJ

[Reed Kennedy]

Sure, thanks for the suggestion John. I've split out the tubing diameter and the tubing type in to two different columns as requested.

Best,

Reed

--

[Igor Belopolsky]

As I battle less-than-stellar braking on my 650b canti bike, I wish I had gone disc.

[Andy Bailey Goodell]

I just bought some of these Save The Rim Brake stickers. How long does it take until I'm an official retrogrouch?

Andy on rim brakes only, in NH

[Alex Wetmore]

As Matt mentioned I mostly trust your numbers.  The other ultralight NFE (not the one you measured) is in my basement and the top tube is easy to ID because it is teardrop shaped and I know from Glen that it is True Temper tubing.

The teardrop True Temper S3 tubes are .51/.41/.51 according to this tubing sheet list from Henry James: http://www.henryjames.com/pdf/HJBpricelist2014.pdf

That is almost identical to your measurements, which makes me trust them.

On 4130 tubes the ends are almost always 0.3mm thicker than the middles, so I've just been looking at your middle number and ignoring whatever you have for the butt thickness.  It's very likely that you could be measuring in the tapered section since we don't know how the builder trimmed the ends.

Anything thinner than 8/5/8 would surprise me unless the tubing is high quality heat treated stuff like 853, OX Platinum, or S3.  8/5/8 doesn't surprise me, it's more prone to denting than 9/6/9, but still has a long history of being used.  For instance many of those nice old Trek frames from the early 80s that are still in use have 531 8/5/8 top tubes.

I expect that measurement mistakes would show a thicker tube than reality, not a thinner one.  I see lots of examples that seem thicker than what I'd expect, like the 531 Trek 710 and the two OX Platinum bikes.

I am surprised by the wall thickness of the 853 frames that you measured from Crust.  They must be using MTB tubesets, the road 853 tubesets are thinner.  You can see specs here:

http://www.torchandfile.com/853-Heat-Treated-Air-Hardening-Tubing_c_62.html

alex

---

From: 65...@googlegroups.com <65...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Matt White <ma...@neglect.us>
Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2018 3:49:07 PM
To: Reed Kennedy
Cc: Steve Palincsar; 650b

Subject: Re: [650B] Re: Masi Speciale Randonneur

[Justin, Oakland]

Given the wheel sizes and advertised uses of those crust frames I’m surprised they aren’t solid metal. It’s be a hard sell to show some of the riding they do and then deliver something that dents easily.

-J

[Alex Wetmore]

The whole point of 853 and other heat treated materials is to increase dent resistance while allowing for thinner walls.

I've long lost the spreadsheet, but a long time ago I computed the dent resistance for a small impact on 9/6/9, 8/5/8 and 7/4/7 tubing across Verus (4130), Verus HT, OX Platinum and S3.  There is a reason that True Temper makes Verus in 9/6/9, HT in 8/5/8, OX Plat in 7/4/7, and S3 in thinner walls.  They end up with almost identical dent resistance.

There isn't a lot of reason to make something like OX Platinum in 10/7/10 unless you want to shoot bullets at it.  It probably ends up with the dent resistance closer to 1.1 or 1.2mm thick 4130, which is heavier than even cheap MTBs from the 90s.

853 has very similar properties to OX Platinum.

alex

---

From: 65...@googlegroups.com <65...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Justin, Oakland <justin...@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 8:05:07 AM
To: 650b

Subject: Re: [650B] Re: Masi Speciale Randonneur

Given the wheel sizes and advertised uses of those crust frames I’m surprised they aren’t solid metal. It’s be a hard sell to show some of the riding they do and then deliver something that dents easily.

-J

[Adem Rudin]

Reed! How do you have an ultrasonic tube tester but not even a cheapo pair of calipers!!!

[Reed Kennedy]

Since the Masi Speciale Randonneur was the first bike I measured and I still have access to the frame in question, it seemed like a good candidate for verification. I went ahead and measured it again:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/asoKAG4BexC5fvTn6

Generally the results are either the same or within 0.03 mm. Interestingly, almost all the measurements that differed went down. I suspect this is because I have gotten better at using the tool. It only produces an accurate reading when the probe is tangent to the tube. When it is at an angle the ultrasonic pulse goes through more metal (imagine measuring a penny with a caliper held perpendicular to the coin, and then again with the coin at a 45 degree angle from the caliper). I'm better at locating the tangent position now, and taking the best possible reading.

The one reading that differed significantly is from the bottom of the seat tube, which went from 0.90 mm to 0.82 mm. I suspect I may have measured a different location on the tube. It is also possible I got a poor measurement the first time. There are extra cable housings running at this point on the Masi SR, and it can be a bit difficult to measure this area accurately.

Overall, I'm quite pleased with the repeatability of these measurements.

Cheers,

Reed

[Reed Kennedy]

Interesting, thanks for the information on the ultralight NFE tubing. I've added it as a note on the spreadsheet.

I have done some limited exploration using this tool to determine where the butts are on a couple frames. In the case of the larger frames I measured it was several inches down the tube. Of course, this isn't at all standardized, and is likely different on smaller frames. If anyone is curious, I am measuring about 1 cm from the tube joint, except where a lug or thick paint interfere. 

I can definitely confirm that it is easy to make the machine display thicker readings: Just hold the probe so that the face is not tangent to the tube. Your corollary is also correct: It is very difficult to get the machine to display a surprisingly low value, and these values always flicker in and out. While taking these measurements I have been recording the smallest reading with a confidence of 90% or better that is stable for at least one second.

The 1979 Trek 710 measurements are quite close to the specifications published in the 1982 Trek catalog (page 2):

http://www.vintage-trek.com/images/trek/Trek3.pdf

Trek simply used very thick downtubes. 

The outlier is the middle of the top tube, which they claim as 0.5 mm and I recorded as 0.62 mm. I've obtained a damaged 710 from the same period to cut up and use for calibration. I'll let you know what I find when I measure the center of the top tube with both the ultrasonic device and digital calipers.

I was also surprised by the thickness of the OX Platinum tubing I measured. Sadly I'm not sure how to get my hands on samples to cut up and measure. If anyone has any OX Plat cut-offs or a damaged OX Plat frame sitting around, please drop me a line!

Cheers,

Reed

[Reed Kennedy]

On Wed, Sep 26, 2018 at 2:00 PM Adem Rudin <adem....@gmail.com> wrote:

Reed! How do you have an ultrasonic tube tester but not even a cheapo pair of calipers!!!

Ha! I was at work, and so was the Masi and the measuring tape, so I decided to use math. There are days when I carry around a set of calipers, but yesterday wasn't one of them. ::grin::

At home I use my treasured Mitutoyo digital calipers. Highly recommended.

Cheers,

Reed

[Randall Daniels]

Thanks for the update, that's very interesting. My 53cm frame weighs almost 5 pounds which makes me wonder just how beefy the chainstays and seatstays have to be to make up the balance of the weight when the TT/DT are so relatively light. 

Also curious to see if what kinda readings you get if you get access to some Soma frames. I didn't like the ride of the Masi, it definitely did not plane for me. The frame/fork I replaced it with, the Fog Cutter/Champ Elysees feels much closer to planing and rides quite well. It's also almost 3/4 of a pound lighter.

[Reed Kennedy]

Definitely looking forward to measuring some Somas. I've never had one that clicked for me, so none stuck around, but I'm sure somebody will bring one around before too long. They're pretty common around these parts. I might actually know somebody with a Pescadero...

Randall, any chance you're anywhere near NorCal? I'd be glad to measure your Fog Cutter if you can get to SF!

Best,

Reed 

--

[Justin, Oakland]

Clearly what is needed is a continuous measurement device that slides down the tube and gives readoita as you go. That way you can get a shape and definitive answer......

-J

[Reed Kennedy]

On Wed, Sep 26, 2018 at 7:46 PM Justin, Oakland <justin...@gmail.com> wrote:

Clearly what is needed is a continuous measurement device that slides down the tube and gives readoita as you go. That way you can get a shape and definitive answer......

I can do that with this device. The problem is maintaining the correct probe position (tangent to the tube) the entire time. It also takes a bunch more time and uses up a bunch of couplant gel. But if anyone really wants to know where their butts are and can bring me their frame, I can tell you. 

The Elcometer PTG8 (one model up from the one I have) even records the results as you slide along and graphs them.

Hm... Now I'm thinking about creating a jig to hold the probe in the optimal orientation at all times and apply consistent pressure...

Reed

[Justin, Oakland]

I knew I could get you to do this by just nudging you.

Now you need a small dyno-powered Raspberry Pi box to process these numbers and upload them to the spreadsheet or database automatically.

-J

[Fred Blasdel]

On Wed, Sep 26, 2018 at 8:44 AM Alex Wetmore <al...@phred.org> wrote:

There isn't a lot of reason to make something like OX Platinum in 10/7/10 unless you want to shoot bullets at it.  It probably ends up with the dent resistance closer to 1.1 or 1.2mm thick 4130, which is heavier than even cheap MTBs from the 90s.

That's exactly what "Supertherm" was and it probably had a more secure place in the market

True Temper made that tubing with the same alloy and treatment as S3, but with double the wall thickness or more for custom BMX frames and modern MTB downtubes

[Igor Belopolsky]

Hm I want this on a disc bike

[gnr6...@yahoo.com]

Hi Igor,

Maybe a better cantilever brake would be the solution.

I'd rather a bike with a more flexible fork.  

  

Good cantilever brakes should be able to do the job.  My regular ride has me going down a steep hill at 80km/h to a tee intersection with a traffic light that always seems to be red when I approach it.  I have never felt the need for more brake than what the front Mafac long arm cantilever can deliver on my Jo Routens.

Reid Harding

[Theodor Rzad]

LOL!