Compass Centerpull Brakes + 1974 Raleigh Competition=Possible?

[Brian Campbell]

I was wondering if anyone has had success having a set of the Compass centerpull brakes brazed on to an older frame? Is this even possible due to the reach? I stumbled into a cosmetically challenged Competition and was of doing  thinking about a conversion. I really like what Peter Weigle does with this era Raleigh but was wondering if it could be done using the centerpulls instead of the canti's?

[Mark Bulgier]

Yes I think that could be done and work very well.  Due to the full-sloping crown on most vintage Competitions, the braze-ons will be very high on the blades or even on the crown, but that's not a problem, in fact it should make for a very rigid mounting. 

You need to pick a framebuilder who is experienced with brazed-on centerpulls, or at least is smart enough to figure it out.  There are some factors that apply to centerpulls but not cantilevers, that make the positioning of the braze-ons a little more tricky in my opinion.  The builder will need to have the actual brakes for trial-fitting, not just measurements.

Mark Bulgier
Seattle

[Peter Adler]

On Monday, April 20, 2015 at 11:28:55 AM UTC-7, Brian Campbell wrote:

I was wondering if anyone has had success having a set of the Compass centerpull brakes brazed on to an older frame? Is this even possible due to the reach? I stumbled into a cosmetically challenged Competition and was of doing  thinking about a conversion. I really like what Peter Weigle does with this era Raleigh but was wondering if it could be done using the centerpulls instead of the canti's?

Compass has the setup instructions/brake specs in a PDF here:

Compass center pull brake

The TL;DR numbers are: 

1) Center of axle to center of pivot brazeon: 335mm (339 for fork offset)

2) space between center points of pivot brazeons: 75.5mm

3) space between fork blades at pivot mounting point: 53.3mm

I don't have a Competition, but I have both the step-up International and the step-down Super Course. By my rough measurements, both of them look like they'd work fine, with a little finessing. Compass has three different pivot bosses with slightly different offsets, to adjust to different situations.

Mark Bugier:

The builder will need to have the actual brakes for trial-fitting, not just measurements.

That's what Compass recommends - that the framebuilder  wait until s/he's got the brakes in hand.

We recommend that builder have the brakes on hand when they build the bike, so that they can make sure everything fits just right. We have the specifications available online as part of the instructions for the brakes. This also allows riders to check whether the brakes will fit their existing bikes.

Peter "eyeing them myself for a similar application" Adler

Berkeley, CA/USA 

[olof...@gmail.com]

Should work fine. I have a Raleigh international I plan to put Dia Compe 750s to, unfortunately not brazed on as the bike is so beautiful as it is.

 

Rueda Tropical http://ruedatropical.com/2009/01/mafac-dia-compe-paul-centerpull-brake-specs/ has a very nice spec collection on centerpulls; Mafac racer is 62 mm between posts, Raid 75 mm, Dia Compe 750 65 mm and Paul Racer 78 mm. Dia compes 610 should be the same as the 750s, but measure!

 

Compass has posts on sale for Dia Compe and Mafac, Paul uses common canti posts.

 

Hope this gives some.

 

Olof Stroh

Uppsala Sweden

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[William Lindsay]

Peter Weigle often moves rear bridges around as needed as well on his Raleigh projects.  

On Monday, April 20, 2015 at 11:28:55 AM UTC-7, Brian Campbell wrote:

[Jan Heine]

Of course, we'd love to sell you a set of Compass centerpulls, but for a 700C bike, the Mafac Racers or 2000 models may be a better choice, mostly due to the pad spacing. Of course, you can spiff those up with the hardware replacement kit that we sell...

Speaking of the hardware replacement kit, we've found that the holes in Mafac's brakes are not always consistent in diameter. Before installing the Compass brass bushings, we recommend reaming the hole with a 10 mm h7 reamer (h7 is the tolerance) to ensure a perfect fit.

Jan Heine
Compass Bicycles Ltd.

[Chris Cullum]

On Apr 20, 2015 5:54 PM, "Jan Heine" <hei...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> Of course, we'd love to sell you a set of Compass centerpulls, but for a 700C bike, the Mafac Racers or 2000 models may be a better choice, mostly due to the pad spacing. Of course, you can spiff those up with the hardware replacement kit that we sell...
>

But isn't he contemplating a 650B conversion?

> Speaking of the hardware replacement kit, we've found that the holes in Mafac's brakes are not always consistent in diameter. Before installing the Compass brass bushings, we recommend reaming the hole with a 10 mm h7 reamer (h7 is the tolerance) to ensure a perfect fit.
>
> Jan Heine
> Compass Bicycles Ltd.
>

[Jan Heine]

I am sorry if I didn't read completely... If it's a 650B conversion, do some careful measurements to determine which brake will work best. It really will depend on the width of your fork crown. (The rear is easy.) Of course, the advantage of using the Compass brakes (or Raids) is that you can use the Compass centerpull rack, which eliminates having to make a custom rack...

Jan Heine
Compass Bicycles Ltd.

[Brian Campbell]

Thank you all for your thoughtful responses. I was considering a 650b conversion for this frame. As Jan mentioned, I was inquiring about the Compass brakes not only for the conversion but also for the front rack. Are the specs for the fork crownrequirements listed on the Compass site?

[Jan Heine]

The specs for the brake boss placement (which is really what matters) are listed. Once you figure out where the bosses go on your fork (measured from the axle center), then you can see how wide the fork blade spacing is at that point. Another consideration is the height of the rack - it needs to match the fender height, which is somewhat determined by the fork crown. So you can play around with the height of the braze-ons a bit to get the rack at exactly the height you want. That is where the experienced builder mentioned by Mark B. is important... because there is a lot more to consider than with a simple canti brake conversion for a cyclocross bike (where all you need to make sure is that the pads hit the rims).

All the specs are here:

http://www.compasscycle.com/instructions.html

[Mark Bulgier]

Another aspect of centerpull boss placement that's trickier than for cantilevers is the reduced tolerance for out-of-parallel, as in bosses that are "toed in", or more frequently, toed out.  Production canti jigs tend to have some slop (they let the braze-ons wiggle a little), which is for speed in loading/unloading when making a bunch of them.  And the slop increases over time in a well-worn jig.   The offset miters of the canti braze ons push on them in such a way that all the slop in the jig is taken out in the toe-out direction.  For this reason, production forks with cantis usually show some toe-out.  Since pretty much all canti brakes have enough toe-in adjustment to deal with that, it's not a problem.  Most people would never even notice it.

But with centerpulls, if the posts are toed in or out, the arms can hit each other where they cross on top.  Even if they don't hit, they can be visibly off, and it will bug you every time you look at it. (it would bother me anyway!)  So the fixture for positioning the centerpull braze-ons should be sufficiently rigid, and with no slop.  That's not too difficult to achieve; the framebuilder just needs to be aware of the issue.

Mark Bulgier
Seattle

[Alex Wetmore]

Mark makes a very good point that I thought about posting yesterday.  I've seen very nice bikes from good framebuilders that have been perfect except that one brake post leaned away slightly and made a funny gap between the centerpull arms.  There was no functional problem with this, it is just visually annoying (I have plenty of visual flaws on bikes that I build too).

Another important thing is that the spacing between studs needs to be correct.  On cantilevers there is a fairly wide range that works well, but the range on centerpull brakes is very narrow because the arms look weird if they aren't aligned.  I use a very simple centerpull jig that doesn't allow for any width adjustment to make sure that I get it correct (the lack of adjustment also keeps the posts straight):

http://photos.alexwetmore.org/Bicycles/Framebuilding/Ivy-T/i-752Ltc2

I wish the Compass brakes were available when I built that bike.  The Diacompe GC's are beautiful but pretty tight in the reach department, that bike fits 30mm tires with fenders but nothing more.

I really like brazeon centerpulls, they just require a bit more care to build for than cantilevers.

​

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From: 65...@googlegroups.com <65...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Mark Bulgier <bulg...@gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, April 20, 2015 9:40 PM
To: 65...@googlegroups.com
Cc: bdcamp...@gmail.com; cullum...@gmail.com; tape...@gmail.com; hei...@earthlink.net

Subject: Re: [650B] Re: Compass Centerpull Brakes + 1974 Raleigh Competition=Possible?

[Brian Campbell]

I was considering Bilenky for this project, as they are local to me. I would think they would have the experience to carry it out.. The one drawback is that when all of the modifications are made, paint included the cost (as near I can estimate) is getting into the range of a L'avecaise from Jeff Lyon. It begs the question if a conversion is truly worth it......

[Alex Wetmore]

From: 65...@googlegroups.com <65...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Brian Campbell <bdcamp...@gmail.com>

​> I was considering Bilenky for this project, as they are local to me. I would think they would have the 

> experience to carry it out.. The one drawback is that when all of the modifications are made, paint included 

> the cost (as near I can estimate) is getting into the range of a L'avecaise from Jeff Lyon. It begs the question 

> if a conversion is truly worth it......

Yes, Bilenky would be a good choice.  David Wilson and Simon Firth's bike shop is also moving (I think up Frankfurt somewhere) and getting a frame shop and would be worth talking to, they both have a lot of experience building bikes.

Conversions can be expensive depending on how involved they get.  I like doing them as a hobbyist, but I don't really have to pay for my time.

I've had top end paint jobs on a few bikes, but these days I just use powdercoat.  It's durable, inexpensive, and looks good enough for my needs.  Even so stripping a bike of paint and then repowdercoating it is at least $200 for a good job.

alex

[William Lindsay]

Wish me luck!  I'm picking up a frameset from the framebuilder tomorrow.  I had him put on braze-on posts on a roadish frame for M.A.F.A.C. Racers.  It was definitely not his first time to do centerpull braze ons.  Hopefully it turns out right.  I'm optimistic.

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Steve Frey]

I did something similar to what you're proposing with my 1982 Trek 311 and Dia Compe 750 brakes. I did the work myself and agree with everything Mark B. and Alex W. said about placement of the posts being much fussier than with cantilevers. But the end result is well worth it. With the Dia Compe brakes I would probably have a tough time getting 42mm tires on and off, but my frame limits me to 38mm anyway. With the Compass brakes or Raids you should have no problem with 42mm tires assuming the frame has the clearance.

Here are pics of the front and back before powdercoat:

  

And the finished product after powdercoat:

I'm very happy with how it all turned out.

Steve

On Monday, April 20, 2015 at 11:28:55 AM UTC-7, Brian Campbell wrote:

[Chris Cullum]

That looks great. Bravo!

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Chris Cullum
Vancouver, BC

[Brian Campbell]

Wow! Inspiring. Great work!

[Jaswkah]

i did just this with my raleigh competition (1978), with the exception that i used mafac racer centerpulls. i ordered the dia compe center pull pivots from compass and had these brazed to the frame (along with some other repairs and modifications) at bob jackson cycles. the brakes work great. i am running 700c wheels, not 650b, which i believe is what peter weigle does with his conversions. if you go the 650b route you will need mafac raid brakes, which are a bit harder to find.

unless you have money to burn, i would just go with mafac racers (if you are running 700c; mafac raids, if 650b). they will cost you 1/4 the price of the compass brakes and will probably work just as well.

hope this helps.

jason

[Charles Hobbs]

Why can't one use mafac Racers on a 650b build? If one is skipping fenders they seem to have plenty of clearance, and if the brake pivots have not been brazed yet, why can't they be placed to suit the Racers?  I have a set polished and ready for some use in the future, and I would be bummed if 650b is not an option.

Charles Hobbs

[Ryan Watson]

Racers can work fine, I've done a 650B conversion with them. Just depends on the frame and how much clearance you need!

The nice thing is they're dirt cheap. I've bought them for $10-$25 a set, and that's with a whole bike still attached ;-)

Ryan

[Steve Frey]

There's no reason you can't use Racers or 2000s with a 650B build. The wheel size is more or less irrelevant when you're mounting them on brazed-on studs. However, the Racers and 2000s don't open as wide so you'll be limited in the width of tire you can get on and off easily without letting air out. 42mm tires aren't going to work. I'm not sure about 38mm. And as you mentioned fenders would be a problem.

Steve

[Brian Campbell]

I was thinking 650/42mm tire with fenders. So, a Raid or Compass brake set would be the only real option. I had the PAul Racers (non-braze-on) on another bike and did not car for them.

 

 I have the same bike essentially (1974 Raleigh Super Tourer) and it fits 38mm Barlow Pass EL tires w/ SKS longboards. Brakes are the 559 Tektro. I am pretty sure the 42mm would fit without fenders.

[satanas]

What was the problem with the Paul brakes? Aesthetics, or did they not work somehow?

Thanks,
Stephen

[Brian Campbell]

I did not care for the looks so much on the bike(s). I had them on a chrome, Schwinn Paramount and a Rivendell A. Homer. They stopped fine but I found the set-up to be more complictaed compared to other brakes for no additional benefit. Really just personal preference, I guess

[anal...@gmail.com]

> I have the same bike essentially (1974 Raleigh
> Super Tourer) and it fits 38mm Barlow Pass EL
> tires w/ SKS longboards. Brakes are the 559
> Tektro. I am pretty sure the 42mm would fit
> without fenders.

that's interesting with your clearance. i can't
imagine fitting anything wider than 28mm on my
frame (with fenders) on my 1978 competition gs.
without fenders i might be able to squeeze 32mm,
but it would be tight in the back.

jason

[anal...@gmail.com]

i can't answer this one, as my bike was designed
for use with 700c wheels and mafac racers. in any
case, when you get the brake pivots brazed to your
frame you should also send the brakes along for
the builder to make the right fit with the size
wheel you plan to use.

this page has spec's for many center pull brakes:

http://ruedatropical.com/2009/01/mafac-dia-compe-paul-centerpull-brake-specs/

hope this helps!

jason

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