low trail curious in Portland

[Christopher Jones]

Shorter: I'd love to try out a bike with low trail geometry. Does anyone know of a shop in Portland that stocks something I could try? Maybe the Soma Grand Randonneur? Or, if you live in the area and ride something with a 53mm-56mmish top tube, would you be up for me buying you a beer in exchange for trying it out? 

Longer: My commuter/touring bike of the past five years or so is a Cross Check. It has racks, but I tend to carry everything up front, in a wald basket. I've always been bothered by how twitchy the bike is. Throwing 10+ lbs of laptop, tools, lunch and the like in the basket is convenient, but it's pretty floppy-feeling. I've done this for thousands of miles, including a tour across most of the country. And then I read a little about low trail designs, which sound much better-suited to the way I want to carry weight. But I've also ready about the dreaded shimmy, and a "disconnected" feeling, and funky solutions like tightening the heck out of headsets. It'd be really cool to see what this sort of bike rides like. 

Thanks ahead of time.

[Mark Guglielmana]

I have a couple of bikes you could try. What's your regular seat tube size? 

[Christopher Jones]

Thanks, Mark! 

I'm planning on meeting up with Ken (also from this group) on Sunday at 1pm in SW. He's got a porteur-type of bike I'm going to give a try. We'll be doing a loop and grabbing a beer afterward at O'Connors. Care to join? 

[tim....@nike.com]

You're welcome to try mine (58mm tt) and more of a lightweight rando build. I'm in SW too.

In fact, I switched over to low trail just two months ago. Cold turkey. Sold the road bike and didn't look back.

As far as a shop, I'd recommend the guys at Velo Cult. They've done their homework on the low trail concept. Depending on the size they also have bikes to try out.

Regards,
Tim

[Christopher Jones]

Thanks, Tim. On your swap, what's your reaction? What feels different to you?

[tim clark]

For context it is a Noblilette frame and was spec'd as a lightweight build for a 135-140lb rider. So it was built to be responsive and fast but with low trail and fat pneumatics.

Probably the biggest change is I can carry 5-8lbs of commuter gear without any noticeable difference in handling.

Once the the bag is off, it rides just like a fast road bike. Maybe not quite as fast in a real race paceline, but surely fast enough to keep with the group and pull every now and again.

The bike goes where you point it, which sometimes is a little surprising because it responds nimbly to inputs even in mid-corner.

As mentioned above, I have found the headset's role is crucial with lighter top tubes. I experienced some shimmy recently, only to find out my headset was a tiny bit loose. A quick normal tightening cleared it up.

Hope this helps!

[Steve Palincsar]

And all this is not only exactly as Jan describes it in BQ, it's also what I experience with my substantially heavier rider and probably somewhat sturdier (8/5/8 tubing) frames.

[Mark Guglielmana]

My main ride is a 650b 1973 Raleigh Competition, reraked and remade by Peter Weigle. I'm about 200 lbs, and would guess that a custom frame for me would use a bit larger tubeset, although I love the way it rides. 

I concur with Tim's observations. I took the plunge when I realized that one of my favorite riding bikes was an old Super Course MkII with 27" wheels that I rode decades ago, with a handlebar bag. I still have a photo, and that rake sure could be "low trail". Note that this is the only picture I still have of this bike from 1975, and obviously wasn't only ridden with full touring kit.

I recently did a rebuild of a 700c 83 Lotus Classique, which is not low trail:

Now I can compare and contrast. The front end on the Lotus feels a lot more lively (twitchy?). If I were racing, I might be in a better competitive situation to jump out of a peloton on a flyer, or to react to someone else doing the same. I think of this as a more "competitive" bike. On a long brevet, one is more likely to want to stay together in a paceline. The low train bike makes it easy to do that, it seems easier to keep in a straight line without much thinking. I think of this as a more "cooperative" bike.

The biggest difference I notice is on windy downhills. I have a perfect, 45 mile course to test this out on, with straights, flats, and hills. I need constant, small corrections to keep my line on the Lotus, whereas the Raleigh/Weigle just goes exactly where I want it to go. 

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Mark Guglielmana

[Christopher Jones]

Tim, really interesting to hear. I had a chance to try out a low trail geometry bike this weekend (thanks, Ken!), and front weight definitely had a negligible affect on steering. I came away from it pretty darn excited.

I rode to SW and met up with Mark and Ken for a little spin. Ken let me borrow his Kogswell porteur. I had ridden there from North Portland on my Cross Check, with a load in a big wald basket in the front. I threw the same load on the Kogswell, and the steering was night-and-day different. A front load on the Cross Check causes the steering to feel twitchy and heavy. On the Kogswell, it felt stable, and I could hardly notice the weight. Later, we tossed a ~20lb box of magazines on the Kogswell's rack, and steering felt hardly affected. Cornering definitely felt different, but not worse. I noticed that I had to actively turn the bar, rather than just leaning. It felt normal pretty much right away. I never experienced shimmy, and tried riding no-handed down some show and steep hills. 

So now I find myself thinking about how to get that low trail feeling for my commuter. The Soma Champs Elysees fork would produce similar front end geometry on the Cross Check, but maybe it's time to look at something new... Lots to read about, for sure.

Thanks much for the ride, Ken and Mark.