Save Bruce Gordon Cycles

[Evan Baird]

Cross post from BOB

Hey Everybody. I spoke with Bruce Gordon again this afternoon and he still hasn't found a buyer for his shop. My partner Norma and I decided that we want to try to raise the money to turn BG Cycles into a frame building school and bike touring museum and open it to the public. I think what Bruce is asking is an insanely low amount of one of the most respected names in custom bicycles and I think that he deserves a comfortable retirement after everything he's done for the American Bike Industry. If you can't support us directly please help us spread the word about our crowdfunding campaign. We have about a month to pull this off, after which Bruce told me he's just going to take his bicycle collection to the recyclers and scrap the lot. I really believe he intends to do that, and I would break my heart to see such beautiful and historical bikes get destroyed.

https://www.gofundme.com/save-bruce-gordon-cycles

[Allan Desmond]

this is real..??

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "650b" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to 650b+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to 65...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/650b.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--

Allan Desmond
Desmond Tactical
702.764.8656
desmond...@gmail.com

[Evan Baird]

100% real. Would you like to join our Facebook group?

On Tue, May 23, 2017, 7:50 AM Allan Desmond <desmond...@gmail.com> wrote:

this is real..??

On Mon, May 22, 2017 at 8:39 PM, Evan Baird <vanst...@gmail.com> wrote:

Cross post from BOB

Hey Everybody. I spoke with Bruce Gordon again this afternoon and he still hasn't found a buyer for his shop. My partner Norma and I decided that we want to try to raise the money to turn BG Cycles into a frame building school and bike touring museum and open it to the public. I think what Bruce is asking is an insanely low amount of one of the most respected names in custom bicycles and I think that he deserves a comfortable retirement after everything he's done for the American Bike Industry. If you can't support us directly please help us spread the word about our crowdfunding campaign. We have about a month to pull this off, after which Bruce told me he's just going to take his bicycle collection to the recyclers and scrap the lot. I really believe he intends to do that, and I would break my heart to see such beautiful and historical bikes get destroyed.

https://www.gofundme.com/save-bruce-gordon-cycles

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "650b" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to 650b+uns...@googlegroups.com.

To post to this group, send email to 65...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/650b.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[Nate P]

I'd like to be added. Thanks, Evan.

-Nate

[Evan Baird]

Send me your email address. I can't figure out how to grab if from your post.

[Peter Turskovitch]

Why would he scrap the bikes? Does he know about the existence of auction houses? He (or you) should contact whoever handled Robin Williams' collection. Especially since they are essentially his life's work you would imagine that he'd be willing to do, like, a day's work to arrange the sales with an agent.

I don't know this guy but I just don't get the motive here.

[blakcloud]

I don't "know" Bruce Gordon but I have known about his bikes and racks for twenty plus years. I have met BG at 2 bike shows and I have talked with him over the phone for about an hour on three occasions. The one thing can take away from these encounters is the guy has no or a limited filter. He just says everything and anything that comes to his mind. There is a certain shock value and bitterness that seems to be prevalent in these later encounters. This isn't a judgement, it is just my observations. I found him entertaining, knowledgeable and extremely passionate about bicycles and especially American production. He doesn't have the charm like Joe Bell or Steve Potts but he has is own uniqueness. My take is he may feel like throwing his bikes in the dumpsters but he won't actually do it. Those bikes will help him fund his retirement.

On Tuesday, May 23, 2017 at 7:00:01 PM UTC-4, Peter Turskovitch wrote:

. . . I don't know this guy but I just don't get the motive here.

[Evan Baird]

No offence, but you don't have the whole story.

[Virgil Staphbeard]

If you're soliciting money, shouldn't we have the whole story?

[Scott Henry]

I think the whole story is summed up into "guy reaches retirement age, guy realizes he never started retirement planning".

I don't care what career you are in, you need to plan early.   Because you cant plan late.

The key word here is compounding.   I didn't truly start saving until I was in my early 30s, that scares me in my 40s.   I taught my son's to start with their high school jobs, they have the ability to comfortably retire a millionaire.

The Bruce Gordon bikes are great, well thought out, well executed.  But it was the little parts that always impressed me more, the brakes and racks and tires...

Scott

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "650b" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to 650b+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

[Lee Legrand]

Dear Scott,

I think the flaw in your argument is that he never thought about it.  It is very possibly that he did but how can you do what you love and save money for retirement if you are making $25k/year.  He may not have the money to save if he is constantly trying to scrape by on a meager living.

[Scott Henry]

This is certainly off topic, but you are correct.   If he was making $25,000 a year, that would be hard to save for retirement.  That's a little over minimum wage and minimum wage isn't designed to prepare you to retire.   

If he never thought about it, he should have.   As the kids say today, that's "adulting".

If he was in that tax bracket, I hope he didn't have kids as I wouldn't want them on welfare.   Nor would I want to pay for them to be on welfare.    If he was making that little, I'd have hoped that he would have realized that he could be making more putting his welding skills to use as a tradesman.   An apprentice welder could clear that easily.  

Doing what you love isn't the same as making a living, providing for your family, planning for the future....    I love surfing, photography and bicycles, I wouldn't be able to take care of myself or my family doing any of that.  So I had to get a job (I was a teacher, now I'm a fireman).

Doing what you love is getting close to following your passion, which is close to a hobby.   Hobbies go better with a full time job that allows you to live life.   I should have stayed a teacher and kept my summers free.   Dammit.

Scott

[Lee Legrand]

Dear Scott,

I think your comparison of surfing, photography and riding bicycles and designing bicycle frames and parts is not a fair comparison.  Your comparison is recreation activity with building bicycle frames and parts which requires a skill developed over many years is not the same. Designing a bicycle frame is not a hobby nor more than being a cabinet maker, seamstress or car mechanic.  I am not saying he could not have done it another way to help himself at the later age but building a bicycle frames is far from being a hobby.  I also think that is hard to find something which you love doing and really good at and finding a service which can pay descent amount of money for.  I am sure he was a great builder but as mentioned, he was not good at marketing which may have been the reason he is where he is.

[Justin, Oakland]

Can we please keep discussions of "welfare" and who should be on it/should pay for it off the list?
Same for critiques of how others "should" plan for retirement?

It's exhausting and quite frankly it seems like most of us are incapable of having a civil conversation about these things online these days. There's plenty of places to go to discuss these things that aren't places dedicated to a weirdo tire size.

-Justin

[Lee Legrand]

Justin,

The discussion on this has been closed be Steve.

-Justin

[Aakash Desai]

My first great frame was a Eisentraut Limited that was actually made by Bruce Gordon when he was in Albert's shop. 

While I appreciate the mission behind reclaiming the shop and turning it into a educational space, there are few details missing here (I'm sure you've got them figured out but I am genuinely interested and curious): 

1. Who will the administrators be of the new BG shop/space and how will they be held accountable to run it sustainably in the manner prescribed? 

2. Who will build and develop the educational program so that it meeds the goal of serving the Petaluma and Greater Bay Area? I am a professional educator myself (going on 6 years now) in the STEM (science, technology, engineering and mathematics) field, and I know how hard it is to build a sound educational program from the ground up that can serve a varied demographic. 

3. Finally, I understand the idea behind using gofundme, but why not develop a funding model whereby funders gain something in return for their investment? It could be a membership scheme, free classes, space access, etc. Something to make the space more of a community-funded and community-run organization. 

I hope my questions don't come off as condescending or rude. I'm actually impressed and excited at your initiative and am inclined to help out in any way that I can. 

[Allan Desmond]

to bad, yet another school..instead of real life production.."those who can do ~those who can't Teach "....end American production,less painful to watch.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "650b" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to 650b+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to 65...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/650b.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[Aakash Desai]

Allan, 

Before using outdated sayings and passing judgements, why not develop some perspective on the economy, industry, artisanship and education as a whole. Where do you think production comes from? Things aren't made out of thin air. It takes trained workers and skilled craftsman to make the things that we cherish. It takes a sound education to create the people who make those things. 

I think a frame-building school is a fantastic idea as long as it is is supported by a carefully developed curriculum, high-skilled instructors and sustainable local and regional partnerships with CTE schools and K-12 education. 

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to 650b+uns...@googlegroups.com.

To post to this group, send email to 65...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/650b.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[Steve Chan]

   You realize of course the irony of this?

   Bruce Gordon points out that there is a huge glut of frame builders which makes it very hard to make a living as a builder, much less have a comfortable retirement.

   Do what is to become of his store? To train more builders of course!

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to 650b+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

[David Parsons]

How many people go through the framebuilding classes and end up actually selling frames compared to making themselves a frame so they can ride something they made themselves?   If it was set up as an adjunct to a technical track at a local school, I could almost see that argument, but if hobbyists are the main clientele it's not going to make matters significantly worse for the people who are trying to make a living at it.

[Lee Legrand]

David,

I can see your comment is the entry point of people in which comments begin to degrade into why did he not find other means to make more more and why should I fund his retirement.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to 650b+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

[Nick Favicchio]

This is difficult to understand.

The bikes in Bruce's collection are worth more than what he's asking. By, I assume, a lot. The titanium lugged carbon bikes?!

Then there is all the other stuff - and that's a lot of stuff.

Are cyclists as a community generally too broke to take advantage of this kind of opportunity? There is no one who follows the radavist or this board (and certainly elsewhere) with $250k and some time to make $500k?

I sure as shit don't, but aren't there people with money somewhere out there still? I live in a town where people buy and own and sail vintage/historic wooden boats. So... yea.

I don't get it. Sad.

Reminds me of a sad joke.

What's the difference between a frame builder and a large pizza?

A large pizza can feed a family of 3.

[Rick Johnson]

The real value of anything is only what someone is willing (and has the
ability) to pay for it.

The sad irony is that most art is only becomes highly valuable after the
lifetime of the artist.


Rick Johnson
Bend, Oregon

[Allan Desmond]

so I'm loss now, is he selling the bicycles yes or no??..an the other items to get to the 200K ??

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "650b" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to 650b+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to 65...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/650b.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[Mark Guglielmana]

"How many people go through the framebuilding classes and end up actually selling frames..." 

Enough to make it difficult to earn a living wage building frames.

[David Parsons]

On Saturday, June 10, 2017 at 2:13:36 PM UTC-7, Mark Guglielmana wrote:

"How many people go through the framebuilding classes and end up actually selling frames..." 

Enough to make it difficult to earn a living wage building frames.

Possibly!    You've actually done a framebuilding class; how many of  the people doing it with you were planning to go into business after they finished up?    I'd imagine that the slow grind of expenses (and marketing! Word of mouth only takes you so far, after all)  and the existance of overseas inports is worse for selling frames than a stream of neophytes coming out of the various framebuilding classes around the USA.

[Mark Guglielmana]

The instructors at UBI said that on average, 1 or 2 people were considering doing it as a business. The class size is 8, it takes two weeks, and they have two campuses (Ashland and Portland), I'd guess each campus has at least 10 classes a year, so you can see from UBI alone there's a lot of new blood every year. 

What happens is someone learns how to build a frame. They're confident because, like the Tin Man, you've now got a piece of paper that says you're a framebuilder (in your mind). You go out and make a few for friends to get your confidence up, a few friends of friends want a frame, and you start thinking you're in business. You're ploughing any profits you make into jigs and tooling, find several place online that you can easily buy everything you need, and off you go. 

At that point you can decide to charge $2000 a frame, and people start chuckling that you can get a frame from a very established and talented builder like Jeff Lyon, or you can lowball a frame for almost half that to attract buyers. Either way you won't be making enough money to save for retirement. Then there's liability insurance, the occassional flakey customer, the customer that requires hours and hours of discussion which you don't count in your "how many hours does it take to build a frame" calculation, and all vacations are unpaid. 

Outside of that, why wouldn't someone want to became a framebuilder as a business?

I understand that what I'm doing is best described as a hobby business, and something to do when I retire when I'll be able to afford it! 

[desmond...@gmail.com]

Well said.. Oh look another Tig wielded steel frame for 2K!!:)

Sent from my iPhone

--

[mitch....@gmail.com]

Like many, I really like the tradition of one person building custom bikes and putting his name on 'em. I hope that continues, even with all the challenges Mark describes, and I hope the market supports it better. 

But I value just as much the small shop / small factory(!) building bikes and putting a good name on them that represents--like the one-man shop--handwork, attention to detail, custom features, quality, etc. 

I'm thinking of a range from one-builder shops like Winter Cycles or Bantam up to a small factory like Waterford. I like the idea that Winter Cycles could establish a really fine reputation and create a desire for their product that isn't tied in the usual way to whether Eric Estlund himself did the brazing. Winter could grow a bit, Eric could hire other builders, a business manager maybe, and continue to build hand-made bikes at the same known quality and not be tied to any particular mystique about whether Eric's own torch had touched every single frame. You'd buy such a frame knowing someone like Mark Bulgier (who didn't build commercially in his own name I think) had built your frame along with whatever apprentices he was teaching. I know some American small builders have worked this way, like Davidson where Mark B. worked for a while I think. And I know it doesn't solve many of the big economic issues. And I know a lot of smart people (like Bruce Gordon) have thought a lot more about this than I have. But in general, it would be good for the N.American handmade bicycle industry to be less enthralled with the one-man mystique. An aspiring builder at one of those UBI classes must contemplate the business model Mark G. laid out with the hope he/she can survive on ramen long enough (or keep his day job effectively like Matthews does) long enough to become successful--and the successful model is rarified, perhaps represented by R.Sachs and JPWeigle where a few builders build a few frames on their own terms with long wait lists. Nothing wrong with that but I bet R.Sachs and JPWeigle would be the first to say it shouldn't be the only successful end-model / end-goal for a builder career.  There ought to be a rewarding brazer-builder career path like Mark B's that doesn't require making bikes in your own name to pay your bills. 

Enough has been said on this thread to teach me that Bruce Gordon did try to create this kind of sustainable small shop model with multiple market innovations. But it also became clear on this thread that our ideas about the hand-holding-the-torch have tied the excellent Bruce Gordon brand so closely to the person Bruce Gordon that we doubt whether any BG bike could be appropriately valued unless Bruce Gordon himself built it. 

Back in the 90s height of the mtb boom, you'd hear the claim that Tom Ritchey himself did some of the brazing on every single Ritchey frame. That's the kind of narrative of hand-holding-the-torch that keeps us from valuing quality bikes handbuilt by non-named craftspeople that narrows the prospects for new builders. Of course the real economic issue is all the other economic challenges relevant to the north american manufacture issue. It's interesting that even when you can put together a good business model for north american bicycle manufacture you can still be hampered by the problem of which famous name did the brazing.

--Mitch