When to choose wider tire? (i.e. Switchback or Babyshoe)

[Bryan Pizzillo]

Hi all,

I am looking at getting a set of Compass tires.  My bike can handle the Switchback Hill tires without an issue, but I wonder, is there a point where the bigger tire is too big?  It will be for short commuting (7mi each way) on paved trails and roads, as well as the occasional ride along the C&O.  So scary loose gravel will probably not be an issue.  (Besides, I have Barlow Passes on my other bike and they do not have too many issues with loose gravel or dry single track)

I think one thing to note, if it matters, I am leaning toward the standard casings just because I will be commuting and want a little extra protection.  Oh and my bike and I loaded is probably around 230-250lbs.  

Thanks,

Bryan

[Andrew]

I've got both with standard casings.  I'm about the same weight as you.  I got the Barlow Passes first for my fixie, and liked them.  I liked the BSPs even more and the SBHs even more so.  My take on it is that we who are a bit heavier can only experience the suppleness that other lighter riders experience and rhapsodize about if we can get down to the same tyre pressures.  And that's only going to happen with more volume.  The rims I used were TK540 for the Barlows giving about 1.8 litres volume per tyre, Kebas for the BSPs giving 2.1 litres, and Dyads for the SBHs giving 3 litres.  I'd advise you to get the widest you can.

[Philip Kim]

Bryan,

Both are nice tires. I had the SBH EL casing, and it made riding DC's awfully paved streets a non-issue. They spun up quick, but has more of a stable and cushy ride, awesome for cruising. I was surprised how much more volume the SBH felt like they had.

I recently went back to Hetres, as I'm going to be putting more miles in, so I wanted more durability and tread. I also wanted a more "roady feeling" for my bike. Also as a smaller rider, I like a smaller wheel diameter with all the stop and go in the city.

If I were a bigger rider, I would definitely go SBHs. You mentioned loose gravel wasn't probably an issue, so chance of sidewall cut is reduced. Both the standard and EL casing have the same puncture resistance and tread life. I would go the EL's if you can afford it. I think it's worth it. Even though Compass tires are uniquely high quality, the EL casing is even more unique to compass tires from what I understand.

[Tony DeFilippo]

I bought Phillips SBH EL's last week, and previously put about 2 years on Hetre EL's. And my tandem is running non EL Barlow Passes, all in the DC area with some C&O time using all three tire sets.

I don't think you can go wrong with any of them but I would recommend going EL... I think that is what sets the Compass tires apart more than anything else.

I'm 6'/210lbs riding bikes that are usually 30-40lbs with commuting load and I very satisfactorily rode the EL Hetres at 40-50lbs heavier in DC. Phillip's point about the feeling of height from the bigger tire is good though, I got that allot from the 700c x 42+ tires but feel OK personally on 650b x 48.

If I were choosing one I'd go with the largest EL tire I could fender for the given frame.

Tony

[Alex Wetmore]

For 90% paved riding I prefer the Babyshoe Pass (42mm) to the Switchback Hill (48mm).

When you get very wide you have to run them at quite low pressures, and it's right on the line of having them feel like they want to roll in corners.  Wider rims help in my experience (I think the latest BQ has a good test of this though, I haven't read it yet).

I really like the wider tires for riding which is 40% or more dirt.  They barely give up anything compared to the BSP on pavement and are much much better on dirt.  They aren't really any better on pavement however.

alex

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From: 65...@googlegroups.com <65...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Bryan Pizzillo <slac...@gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, February 5, 2016 8:06 AM
To: 650b
Subject: [650B] When to choose wider tire? (i.e. Switchback or Babyshoe)

 

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[David Pertuz]

I am surprised by the pressures that some of you run Hetres at. I have been using them for years on the Rawland that has been my primary bike for riding around Chicago and am in the latter part of the lifespan of my 2nd set. I used to run them at 60F/65R until i tried 55F/60R and realized that felt no more sluggish and rode better. However, once pressures get into the lower 40s, they start feeling sluggish, weird and wallowy, and generally unpleasant. And I am not a big guy, at 150lb at my absolute heaviest plus about 30-35lbs of bike and maybe 20lbs of stuff when I am carrying a ton of shopping or something.

As far as flat-resistance goes, I have found them pretty decent, certainly good for the kind of tire that they are. I do get flats regularly, but sometimes I will go a couple of months without getting one, and other times I have gotten three flats in two days. But this is due to the amazing quantity of poky crap that the streets here seem to be carpeted with.

David

Chicago

[Greg Walton]

This is obviously a YMMV kind of thing.  I'm 175 and run Hetres at 40ish front and rear and don't experience any sluggishness vs higher pressure and certainly no wallowing or weirdness.  Same for BSP EL.

Greg

[Alex Wetmore]

I'm about the same weight at Greg and pump them up to 45 and let them deflate down to around 20 before pumping them up again.  They get weird in hard cornering at 20-25psi.  I don't think they get sluggish (and the tire testing that I was involved with at BQ would agree).

Pump gauges are often not very accurate at these lower pressures.  I borrowed an accurate gauge from a friend and compared it to both of my pumps.  One reads 20 lbs high in this range and if David's pump is doing the same that could explain some of his experiences.  My other pump is quite a bit more accurate.

I don't get flats often (one per thousand miles or so, all of my bikes have Compass tires), but friends riding on my bikes do (it seems like they get a flat every 50-100 miles).  I think it has to do more with how closely one rides to the curb/gutter than anything else.  I take the lane almost constantly.

alex

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From: 65...@googlegroups.com <65...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Greg Walton <gwa...@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 11, 2016 10:13 AM
To: David Pertuz
Cc: 650b
Subject: Re: [650B] When to choose wider tire? (i.e. Switchback or Babyshoe)

 

[Nick Favicchio]

I may something of an outlier, but for the VAST majority of riding, including most forest service roads and gravel/offroad, I prefer a 38. Even BSPs might be a bit much unless loaded for multiple days. Right now I've got a pari moto on the rear and a BSP on the front. I like that.

I think this is a very personal call. Entirely a matter of preference, there is no right or wrong.

[satanas]

Last year I spent several months in Europe, touring plus PBP, and qualifiers for same. Weight for self is ~140lbs. With standard Hetres pressure was ~35psi, and with the lightweight Soma tyres maybe 5 psi more. Once the pressure gets below a certain point, handling becomes vague, and stability decreases; this happens gradually, so by the time one notices things can be degraded quite a bit. An accurate gauge would be extremely useful. And if the pressure is ~5psi or so too high the ride is noticeably harsher; the window is narrower with the lighter casings.

I agree with those who've said wider tyres give better results with more weight - this applies with luggage weight too.

Later,
Stephen

[David Pertuz]

Your point about pump gauge accuracy is a good one and one I hadn't thought of. Since my pump has a Schraeder head I'll check it on one of my cars' tires and compare it to my pencil and dial gauges, whose readings I trust. I'm curious to know what my pressures really are.

[Matthew Snyder]

I commute on Switchback Hills (EL), after having had Hetres and Babyshoe Passes on the same bike, same rims, same everything except tires.  My commute is mostly paved with short dirt or gravel sections that I ride more out of fun than out of necessity.  Probably 1200 miles on the SBH tires at this point, almost all commuter miles and casual weekend offroad rides.  I run the SBH tires at reasonably low pressure, in the neighborhood of 25-30 psi, and generally I don't watch the pressure too closely ... I ride them until I notice the cornering getting a little iffy, and then top them off.

At no point have I said to myself, man, these tires are too wide.  If you can afford them, I don't see any downsides to the wider SBHes.

Matthew Snyder

Seattle WA

[Bryan Pizzillo]

Hi all,

Thanks for all the input!  I understand that this is a pretty subjective thing, maybe not as much as saddle choices, but it sounds like SBHs are the right way to go.  Plus, the last time I listened to people about tires I ended up with a set of Barlow Passes on my other go-faster bike, and they have been great. (even though they are just the standard, I can't wait to replace with the EL versions)

Thanks,

Bryan 

[mitch....@gmail.com]

I go back and forth between Babyshoe Pass ELs and Rat Trap Pass EL on similar bikes with similar setup, riding the same pavement and gravel. (Outer diameter is about the same between these two so feel difference is based in width and weight I guess.)

The BsP 42mm width is noticeably better on pavement and even firm gravel. They ride lighter, spin up faster, and feel generally faster and more efficient.

But I also love riding the RTP EL on pavement for the change and variety, and because they roll so surprisingly easily for their size. I've only ridden them since December so time will tell if my main attraction to the RTP on pavement is novelty or because it's winter and having a more robust tire may seem to fit the weather or season.

Either tire is fast and fun, and it's surprising how little the wide tire gives up on pavement (but the BsP EL is definitely faster and quicker on the road).

On gravel the RTP EL is fast and smooth and turns require no finesse you need to use the narrower the tire. It just rides the stuff. I thought the BsP were great on gravel and that you feel no transition from pavement to gravel but the RTP are that much better. On firm, finer gravel the BsP still feel quicker and probably faster, but for varied gravel I definitely prefer the wider RTP.

It's true that they're each optimized for one surface but do the other surface surprisingly well.

If I had to decide between them for a main ride it would be mainly based on whether I rode more gravel or pavement.

But there are two preference issues:
1) some people just love riding fatter tires if they can do it without too much penalty. Since riding the RTP I get it even though I prefer the BsP on he road.

2) The other preference thing is that some people like the quickness and responsiveness of a slightly smaller diameter wheel overall, and some like the momentum and slower response of a larger overall diameter. When Jan blogged his initial impression of the RTP vs the Switchback Hill (almost the same except for outer diameter) he sounded undecided because both felt great. In his recent BQ NFT review with SBH, he sounds like he would prefer the quicker tire over the one with more inertia. Me too, but I know people who go he other way after plenty of experience with both. I think it helps to try out both on preference issues like this. If one is more fun to you, you don't want to miss out on it.

--Mitch

[John Clay]

Interesting thread. Here is my related reaction, three years later. For me the title would be refined as “Which to Choose, BSP or RTP ”. All of this would extend to SBH, Barlow Pass, et al. for folks taller than I am. I've been puzzling this lately because I have both the good fortune and misfortune of owning one bike built specifically for the BSP and another built specifically for the RTP.

I finished my BSP frame and got it on the road a little over a year ago. I finished the RTP frame and got it on the road about a month ago. Because the two tires have ODs within a couple mm of each other I didn't alter the frame fixture in any way; the fixture wasn't touched in between the two bikes. Fork rake is identical as well. The gearing is significantly different on the two: BSP @ 45/32 + 13,14,15,16,17,19,21, RTP @ 42/30 + 13,15,17,20,24,28. Otherwise the wheels have similar rims with 36 2/1.8 mm DB spokes and main frame tubing walls are 9/6.

The BSP project was conceived before I discovered the network of little traveled dirt roads in N FL and S Georgia. I chose the BSP because I figured I'd generally be on asphalt with my usual dirt road connectors where necessary (or reasonable and pleasurable). But during fabrication, or perhaps shortly after, I became fully aware that ours is an extensive galaxy of outstanding dirt roads. In the middle of all this I had been riding my CX bike on the dirt roads, hence my increased awareness, and sensing no reduction in our distracted driving epidemic decided that I'd start riding dirt pretty much exclusively. Certainly I'd ride asphalt where I felt reasonably safe but the governing equation inverted such that “I'd generally be on dirt with my usual asphalt connectors where necessary (or reasonable and pleasurable)”. That was the impetus for the RTP bike.

I haven't taken both bike to the Saint Mark's Historical Bicycle Trail (“the trail”) for a back to back rolling resistance comparisons on perfect asphalt but based on a fair bit of general riding on both, whatever difference there is has got to be tiny. But which to choose?

This pretty much sums up my feelings at present: The last ride I took on the BSP was this past Wednesday. Prior to that I'd been riding the RTP everywhere and on every surface. I took the BSP to the trail not because it was better on asphalt than the RTP but because there wouldn't be any conditions in which it was worse than the RTP. The trail was the one place where the BSP wouldn't be the obvious second choice.

All that said the BSP (& Hetre) is stellar and awfully capable on a wide variety of surfaces. If the RTP type tires hadn't been invented I'd be ecstatic for the rest of my life on the BSP bike. The only problem is that the RTP was invented and, with the possible (and small) exception of perfect asphalt rolling resistance, it's equal or better in every other way; substantially so as it relates to softer surfaces.

I do want to crank up the mileage on both and it will be interesting to see if my views evolve over time. The BSP bike is beyond fantastic. I've certainly decided to pay more attention to tire pressure, so much so that I ordered a 0-100 psi pressure gauge that's +-1% accurate in my TP range.

For reference the photos are in these albums.

BSP: https://www.flickr.com/photos/21624415@N04/albums/72157674615273680/with/25545712458/

RTP: https://www.flickr.com/photos/21624415@N04/albums/72157671170583438

John Clay

Tallahassee, FL

On Wednesday, February 10, 2016 at 9:20:01 PM UTC-5, Bryan Pizzillo wrote:

[Alex Wetmore]

All that said the BSP (& Hetre) is stellar and awfully capable on a wide variety of surfaces. If the RTP type tires hadn't been invented I'd be ecstatic for the rest of my life on the BSP bike. The only problem is that the RTP was invented and, with the possible (and small) exception of perfect asphalt rolling resistance, it's equal or better in every other way; substantially so as it relates to softer surfaces.

I overall agree with you John, except for one thing.  The BSP is a lot less sensitive to tire pressure which also makes it a little nicer for commuting and daily use bikes.  I just pump them up to 40psi and over ~3 months they drop back down to 20psi and I can ride comfortably anywhere in between.

On the RTP I pump up to 25psi, any higher and the tires bounce all over the place.  It doesn't take long for them to drop down to 20psi, where they start to feel like they could roll off of the rims. 

I'm probably lazier than most cyclists at maintaining my bikes, so lots of people probably won't mind.  For me it takes 2 or 3 bad commutes before I remember to put a bit of air in the tire (and this is with floor pumps at home and work).

alex

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From: 65...@googlegroups.com <65...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of John Clay <nice.c...@gmail.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 7, 2019 9:38:49 AM
To: 650b
Subject: [650B] Re: When to choose wider tire? (i.e. Switchback or Babyshoe)

 

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[Stephen Poole]

I sort of agree, but I found the inflation window narrower with 42s, maybe 5-10 psi. Too much => hard ride (on a GR), not enough and steering got worse. That air loss took less than a week for me, but of course YMMV.

Fatter tyres on dirt have much more leeway before things feel weird; on tarmac, not so much.

Later,

Stephen

PS: Is there a generic North American term for "not dirt?" Here in Oz we usually say bitumen, but I'm sure it's different there.

[Alex Wetmore]

PS: Is there a generic North American term for "not dirt?" Here in Oz we usually say bitumen, but I'm sure it's different there.

Pavement.

alex

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From: 65...@googlegroups.com <65...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Stephen Poole <nsc.e...@gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, April 8, 2019 2:31:46 PM
To: 650b
Subject: Re: [650B] Re: When to choose wider tire? (i.e. Switchback or Babyshoe)

 

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[Stephen Poole]

Okay, thanks. In the UK pavement = sidewalk (US) = footpath (Oz)...

[John Clay]

That makes sense Alex; I know that the RTP is significantly more sensitive to pressure than the BSP but I hadn't thought about the practical commuting aspect you mentioned. Funny you mentioned the floor pump at each end of your commute; reminds me of the cobblers children having no shoes.

I just upgraded my pressure gauges thusly. I should have done it 20 years ago. It is awfully nice to have accurate and readable gauges. The floor pump gauge is ASME Grade A (2-1-2% FS accuracy) and the handheld is Grade B (3-2-3%) so over the pressure range of the tires I use they're good to ~ 1 psi mechanically....and I can read them!!

John Clay

Tallahassee, FL

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John

[Mark Bulgier]

Way back in the early '80s, Angél Rodriguez did a trick I've been sort of tempted to try ever since. He got one of those bolt-on Schraeder valves, with the threads all the way down, and bolted it to a tube that already had a presta valve.  So the tube had both styles of valve.  Then he drilled a second hole in the rim for the Schraeder.  Installed and aired up, then screwed a high quality pressure gauge onto the Schraeder, and just left it there. 

He did this so he could view, in real time (almost), how much the tire pressure went up from heat, on a long downhill, on his tandem with rim brakes only.  I say "almost" real time because you have to stop and get off the bike to read it.  A gauge with bluetooth telemetry might be do-able nowadays, with an app on your smart phone to read it while riding?  But that's not my main point.

Mainly I wanted to mention how much more do-able the two-valve solution is nowadays with tubeless.  With Angél's setup, he'd have to bolt the valve to a new tube any time he replaced the tube, and probably have to undo the pressure gauge even to patch the tube without replacing.  But with tubeless, two valves is pretty much zero extra hassle, once you've drilled the rim.  Or am I missing some reason why that wouldn't work?  

Maybe the valve should be attached to the two adjacent spokes so it doesn't flop around?  Ooh maybe put the gauge on a dongle of hose, so the gauge could be mounted to the hub? Might be easier to read while pumping.

Racers and weight-weenies might object, but for the real world, no one will notice the weight.  And always knowing your actual pressure seems like a huge boon.

Anyone want to test it out and report to the group?  Or maybe this is something that lots of people do already, and I just need to get out more?

Mark Bulgier

[satanas]

There are at least three ways of measuring tyre pressure on the fly:

https://www.dcrainmaker.com/2018/04/hands-on-quarq-tirewiz-cycling-pressure-sensor.html/amp

https://www.fobotyre.com.au/fobo-bike-2-advanced-motorcycle-wireless-tyre-pressu~238

https://www.ja-gps.com.au/Garmin/tyre-pressure-wireless-monitor/?

The latter two are intended for motorcycles, with the Garmin maybe dedicated to a Garmin moto GPS unit; both are for Schraeder valves. The TyreWiz is Presta.

I haven't used any of them, but the TyreWiz would give interesting data, and might even be useful - if the price was right.

Later,
Stephen

[Steve Park]

On Sunday, April 7, 2019 at 12:38:49 PM UTC-4, John Clay wrote:

All that said the BSP (& Hetre) is stellar and awfully capable on a wide variety of surfaces. If the RTP type tires hadn't been invented I'd be ecstatic for the rest of my life on the BSP bike. The only problem is that the RTP was invented and, with the possible (and small) exception of perfect asphalt rolling resistance, it's equal or better in every other way; substantially so as it relates to softer surfaces.

A great point.

 

Riding along gentle downsloping dirt road at D2R2 years ago on Hetres, I recall thinking that heaven must be something similar.  Couldn't get much better....  Tubeless Babyshoe Pass EL on wide carbon rims are better.  

Since then I've experimented with SBHs and enjoy them on dirt, but I still prefer a BSP for most riding because they feel zippier for my majority paved terrain.  My latest bike is optimized for BSP with the option for SBH.  In conclusion, try all of these good choices.

[ViveLemond]

It's simple: if you're on gravel/dirt, go as wide as you can with Compass/RH tires. The safety and comfort is non-debatable. For more road, the 42mm Baby Shoes are great. (but they look small after putting on some Switchback Hills).
I can't see any reason ever to run less than 42s, unless you're a pro racer maybe.