Cool but kinda rusty old Toei on eBay

[Mark Bulgier]

www.ebay.com/itm/191799195695
As rusty as it is, $1700 (frame/fork only) might be asking too much, but that is one very desirable frame, in my book.  I don't like the color either but that's almost a blessing since I wouldn't have any qualms about repainting it.  Normally for me, preserving the original finish on a vintage bike is a goal, though not an over-riding one. I mean I'm not religious about it.

If any of you don't know about Toei, you might be interested in researching the brand. For decades they have been "out-Frenching" the French with superfine workmanship on classically integrated touring and rando machines.  I don't know what kind of numbers have been made, but I assume pretty small.  I have never seen one in the USA, that I can recall.

If you want to read up, there's a book, "TOEI The Art of the Beautiful Bicycle", available from Bicycle Quarterly.  Text is in Japanese but you'll be buying it for the photos anyway...
BQ Vol. 7 #1 has an interview, and BQ #52 (Summer 2015) has a feature article on Toei.

Mark Bulgier
Seattle

[Andrew Fatseas]

$1700 is pretty steep considering you can get Toei to make you a new one for less than that, including a front rando rack. 

There are a few in the U.S. and a couple in Australia. Some are branded differently like the Grand Bois that I ride and Jan's urban bike. 

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[Ray Varella]

I have one which came from Jitensha Studio and I know Hiroshi sold a few more father I got my bike. 

Andrew, it's not so easy to get one here in the U.S. 

Even if someone speaks Japanese, they don't have email to accept drawings and pictures, they don't take credit cards and they don't offer shipping. 

In order to actually get one of their bikes you need to either travel to Japan and make shipping arrangements or have an agent who will work with them on your behalf. 

I couldn't even get a stem for my Toei unless I could pay directly and make shipping arrangements. 

Cheers,

Ray

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Ray Varella

IAABC Parrot Division

Supporting Member

[Metin Uz]

Well, they are not THAT rare, I have one, so do two guys I ride with. They are 700C rando bikes, though.

--Metin

On Friday, February 5, 2016 at 12:59:38 AM UTC-8, Andrew wrote:

$1700 is pretty steep considering you can get Toei to make you a new one for less than that, including a front rando rack. 

There are a few in the U.S. and a couple in Australia. Some are branded differently like the Grand Bois that I ride and Jan's urban bike. 

On Friday, 5 February 2016, Mark Bulgier <ma...@bulgier.net> wrote:

www.ebay.com/itm/191799195695
As rusty as it is, $1700 (frame/fork only) might be asking too much, but that is one very desirable frame, in my book.  I don't like the color either but that's almost a blessing since I wouldn't have any qualms about repainting it.  Normally for me, preserving the original finish on a vintage bike is a goal, though not an over-riding one. I mean I'm not religious about it.

If any of you don't know about Toei, you might be interested in researching the brand. For decades they have been "out-Frenching" the French with superfine workmanship on classically integrated touring and rando machines.  I don't know what kind of numbers have been made, but I assume pretty small.  I have never seen one in the USA, that I can recall.

If you want to read up, there's a book, "TOEI The Art of the Beautiful Bicycle", available from Bicycle Quarterly.  Text is in Japanese but you'll be buying it for the photos anyway...
BQ Vol. 7 #1 has an interview, and BQ #52 (Summer 2015) has a feature article on Toei.

Mark Bulgier
Seattle

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[Mark Bulgier]

Folks it appears from on- and off-list messages that I was being too polite about the asking price. I agree. For the record, I have never paid even half that much for a frame and I'm not likely to in this life. I just outed the eBay bike so people could gawk at the photos. 

Even though the workmanship is a bit finer than you will see on most Singer or Herse bikes that go for that money, a Toei will to some extent always be seen as a copy or maybe an homage, so it won't get quite the crazy adoration (and prices). 

Mark Bulgier 

Seattle 

Sent from my phone

Metin Uz wrote:

Well, they are not THAT rare, I have one, so do two guys I ride with. They are 700C rando bikes, though. 

[rcnute]

Lloyd Tamura at Velo Bike Shop in Seattle has helped people get Toeis.

Ryan

[Daniel]

Mark, this is a neat find. I for one really like it. It does not fit me physically or financially, so my interest is more "academic." If I were buying this, I actually like the status of the paint, but I'd probably do something about the headset and front cable hanger. I'd also be curious about the tire clearance (could you get the Baby Shoe Pass + fenders in there?). There's a lot of dimpling (which is probably good).

If you'll indulge me in a thread drift, read on:

As a framebuilder, what do you like about it? I don't know that I've seen a (picture of a) Toei with Nervex lugs before. They don't particularly thinned or different than the Nervex lugs on my Raleigh International. Are they done better here? I assume so, but I can't really tell. It's a nice fork bend, but not the best I've seen.

I hate to bring up the economics because that can make little sense and I know that's where the rub is earlier in this thread, but at this price (or less), you could sometimes get a used MAP, which are really spectacular. And it's a stone's throw from what I paid for my Travis Cooper (https://flic.kr/p/nZsfUd) and I think Travi's hand carved lugs on the bi-lam headtube make my bike very special and wonderful. I had written more here about other builders, but I cut a lot of what I write in this paragraph, because ultimately, there are many great builders and many beautiful bikes.

Thank you for indulging me.

Daniel

Porltand, OR

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[Joe Bunik]

Boy, I'm feeling sheepish to admit this, but...

I'm in the throes of, not exactly buyer's remorse / maybe more like
bike hoarder's lament(???). I just "won" another auction from this
guy's -- having pitched ~half the price of that Toei (and seller
swung!... But, I neglected to consider shipping so maybe that's why
I'm now feeling up sh*t creek!!!) -- for this vintage Alps 'Quick
Ace':

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ALPS-Randonneur-Touring-Vintage-650A-Toei-Rene-herse-Alex-singer-/191797386041

Having dredged Japanese otaku blogs for literal years now, just how
much is an obscure frame that is (at least near!) to your desired fit
and that checks off several of the "bonus point" boxes worth? I won't
answer that in a dollar figure b/c I have a hunch it's a losing
proposition.

I've encountered bikes from the European masters Herse, Singer,
Routens, Goeland - indeed those are fine works of art and I am sure
even better, pleasures to ride. Maybe I am just a sucker for the
underdog, but the prosaic tributes/emulators of those greats as
produced by Jack Taylor, Toei, etc. are what truly appeal to me. The
problem is, despite passion and zeal for any of these, I just can't
believe any of them qualify as "good investments".

BTW, nice Travis Cooper, Daniel. Maybe I should have saved my pennies
(and twenties)!
=- Joe Bunik
Walnut Creek, CA

>>> If you want to read up, there's a book, "*TOEI *The Art of the Beautiful

[Joe Bunik]

In other words, let's be pragmatic and allow me to state:

1. I'm never going to order a new $4k Toei from Japan.
2. But I've poured over the "TOEI Manual" many sleepless nights while
sipping the Hakushu from a snifter
3. I am collecting an ever-growing stash of vintage Japanese bits in
an envious pursuit of people like Peter Weigle

Did I need the Alps? Or did I WANT the Alps?
=- Joe

[Metin Uz]

Looks really nice! Build it up in time for Eroica California?

--Metin

[Mark Bulgier]

Joe, I'm a little worried about that Alps.  Though it is super cool, how confident are you that it'll work for 650B?  If the canti posts are located for 650A as the auction states, that's a different height than 650B.

I wouldn't be surprised if the seller is mistaken and it's really made for 650B, seems more likely for a Japanese touring or Rando bike of that era. 
Oh wait I just looked it up (thanks again Sheldon!), there's only a 3 mm difference in the rim radius, so there's a decent chance the canti posts will actually work for either/both, as long as it's at a height that's not at the extreme for either size.  And some brakes have more up/down adjustment than others, so some brake will work, for sure.

Can't wait to see it all built up, you'll show us pics right?

Mark Bulgier
Seattle

Joe Bunik wrote:

> http://www.ebay.com/itm/ALPS-Randonneur-Touring-Vintage-650A-Toei-Rene-herse-Alex-singer-/191797386041

[Max]

Both really nice looking frames. Congrats on the Alps!

I personally wouldn't mind the rust from a structural perspective, especially if a repaint (e.g. a simple powdercoat) is an option.

The price... Well, it's probably in line with what a bike of similar functionality and pedigree would command, no?..