Chances of 650b tires becoming unavailable?

[grep PZ]

I'm about to make a substantial investment on a new bike that comes with 650b wheels.

Two questions:

Is there a risk of 650b tires becoming hard to find, say, 5 or 10yrs down the road?

Is it possible to convert a 650b bike to 700c (I'm ok running skinnier tires at that point)

[Mark McGrath]

If anything I think there will be more tire options in the future.

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[Ryan Watson]

We were asking that when I first started riding 650B 10 years ago!

There were basically two tires available but one had just been discontinued. 

I hoarded tires at every opportunity!

Now there are more tires than I'll ever have the funds and time to try out. 

I think you'll be fine :-)

Ryan, who still has a stash of Trimlines, in Albuquerque 

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[Harold Bielstein]

What we need more of however, is a greater selection of non-disk rims.

Sent from Hal's iPad

On Nov 29, 2016, at 11:43 AM, Ryan Watson <rswa...@me.com> wrote:

We were asking that when I first started riding 650B 10 years ago!

There were basically two tires available but one had just been discontinued. 

I hoarded tires at every opportunity!

Now there are more tires than I'll ever have the funds and time to try out. 

I think you'll be fine :-)

Ryan, who still has a stash of Trimlines, in Albuquerque 

On 2016/11/28, at 19:32, grep PZ <gre...@gmail.com> wrote:

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[Steve Palincsar]

If you look on rec.bicycles.tech at postings from around 10 years ago,
you'll find a lot of concern about a possible future '650B apocalypse.'
Some of that was due to an overblown fear that fuel reserves would be
exhausted and all international trade grind would collapse, leading to a
Mad Max dystopia. Obviously that didn't happen. Could it happen at
some point in the future? Who knows: even strikes by 10 mile diameter
asteroids leading to planetary extinctions are possible - indeed, have
already happened in the past. But then, if that happened the
availability of all sizes of tires would be a moot point.

As for conversions: the outside diameter of a 42x650B tire is about the
same as that of a 700Cx23, although obviously the latter is a lot
narrower and the rim will be larger in diameter. Disc brakes are
independent of rim size, so swaps between 700C and 650B would be easy,
space at the stays and fork crown being the limiting factor. With rim
brakes reach comes into play. With brazed-on pivots you're going to
have a problem getting the brake shoes to the rim's brake track. With
caliper brakes, switching to a shorter reach brake should do.

There are many more bikes out there now using 650B tires than there were
when many of us got into the size, and concerns about future
availability were far more valid then than they are now.

[Murray Love]

The real issue has become 650B tubes, as I recently learned. Due to the proliferation of 27.5" bikes, there are tons of 650B x 2" tubes around, but it's become harder to find them in the 35-40mm range. 26 x 1 3/8" are mostly Schraeder valve. Fortunately, 26 x 1.5-1.75" tubes fit just fine.

Murray

Victoria, BC

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[William Lindsay]

You've gotten lots of good responses on your first question: There is no reasonable risk that 650b tires will be gone in 5-10 years.  

On your second question, can I convert my 650B bike to 700c?  Yes

If your 650B bike has disc brakes, you can swap wheelsets back and forth with abandon.

If your 650B bike has cantilever brakes or braze on centerpull brakes, you may decide to have a framebuilder re-locate those posts to the different rim radius

If your 650B bike has long reach caliper brakes, your conversion will likely include swapping those out to short reach caliper brakes.  

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Steve Palincsar]

Depends on the brand of tube.  Maxxis lightweight tubes (I forget if they're called Extra or Ultra light) are perfect in the 1.5-1.75 size, while Specialized (which is what the local bike shops around here carry) tubes in that size are too wide: their 1.25-1.5 tubes fit well.  But either way, there are plenty of 559 tubes that fit 584, and there is no shortage of them.

The Schwalbe SV12 (the "official" 650B tube) fits the following sizes, according to Schwalbe's web site (and the little book they package with each tube):

47-559 47-571 35-584 40-584 44-584 47-584 32-590 37-590 44-590 32-597

26 x 1 3/4 27.5 x 1.35 27.5 x 1.75 26 x 1 1/4 26 x 1 3/8 26 x 1 5/8 26 x 1.75

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[Scott Stulken]

I had the same thoughts when I built my conversion.  In fact, the first stage of my conversion was to build 650*A* wheels, since all the parts were cheaper and there would always be something available for all those English 3-speeds that won't die.  When I wasn't completely happy with those results, I loosened the purse strings a little and built up some 650B wheels and installed Pari-Motos.  Ahhh...

Like the others said, the market for 650B stuff is pretty established and healthy at this point, the chief concern being rim-brake rims.  Another that I hold is that 650B tire production is kind of a monoculture, most of the tires coming from Panaracer.  If anything were to happen to them, a lot more of our favorite tires would go away than people realize.

But in the event that happened, I wouldn't have much interest in converting any 650B bikes back to 700C.  Skinny tires with no room for fenders?  I already have bikes for that!  I would much sooner convert back to 650A, which only involves a wheel swap and moving the brakes a few mm.  Kenda/Sunlite makes 650A utility-style tires that aren't as "supple" but would last many years in a Mad Max scenario.

- Scott

[Ryan Watson]

> On 2016/11/29, at 13:10, Scott Stulken <thermio...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> In fact, the first stage of my conversion was to build 650*A* wheels, since all the parts were cheaper and there would always be something available for all those English 3-speeds that won't die.

That was the main reason for my early enthusiasm for 700D wheels: I could run either 650A or 650B!
Now I'm happy to be stuck with 650B, though I'm still running 700D wheels with 650A tires on one bike.
I do have a NOS pair of 700D rims stashed in my underground bunker for the "Mad Max" scenario ;-)

Ryan

[Andrew Squirrel]

The smart investment is a disc equipped frame and tubeless ready rims as the MTB market moves that direction.

There will always be 650b tires but quality, wide machined-side-wall rims will probably become more scarce as rim manufacturers see the growing demand for disc specific rims. Manufacturers will likely start dumping all their modernization into the disc rims while leaving behind most of the traditional rims.

On Tuesday, November 29, 2016 at 10:35:23 AM UTC-8, grep PZ wrote:

[grep PZ]

All, I do appreciate your detailed responses.  I feel confident now :)

I'm taking the dive!

On Tuesday, November 29, 2016 at 10:35:23 AM UTC-8, grep PZ wrote:

[Bill]

Last year when I visited my LBS seeking a tube for a Hetre they offered something for a 26er. This summer while shopping there they had a healthy supply of QBP Qtubes, 650b X 35-43mm, presta valve 32mm, removable valve core. If your LBS doesn't stock them, they ought to be able to order them for you.

[Ray Varella]

Greg PZ,
Well before the resurgence of the 650b wheel size, I had this very conversation with Hiroshi at Jitensha Studio.
I was ordering a frame and he was insistent that 650b was a better wheel size for the size bike I ride.
He assured me that the wheel size was alive and well in Japan and had been for decades.
He said he always kept tires in stock and rims were not a problem.

I trusted him and things have improved by leaps and bounds.
We have a very good selection of tires and it gets better every year.

Someone mentioned that Panaracer made the majority of 650b tires but Schwalbe makes quite a few as well and they run the gamut from super heavy duty to fast and light with several options in between.

Don't forget to share pictures of your bike when you get it.

Ray
Vallejo CA

[guy4...@gmail.com]

Ah, but what I want to know -- will 27" make a comeback!  Used to be default size in the US.  Now not much of a selection.  May need to convert back to 700C (OEM was tubulars).
Cheers.

On Tuesday, November 29, 2016 at 10:35:23 AM UTC-8, grep PZ wrote:

[Eric Keller]

On Tue, Nov 29, 2016 at 10:15 PM, <guy4...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Ah, but what I want to know -- will 27" make a comeback! Used to be default
> size in the US. Now not much of a selection. May need to convert back to
> 700C (OEM was tubulars).
> Cheers.

I almost answered his question with my 27" touring bike story. In
1980, I decided that a touring bike should have 27" tires for
availability even though I would have preferred 700c. Fast forward,
and now the situation has reversed. The lesson I learned was to do
what I want, not what I think I should do. It's really difficult to
make predictions about these things

[Steve Palincsar]

If the bike originally came with tubulars, then nothing to convert: it already fits 700C (and probably does not fit 27 x 1 1/4").

[Steve Palincsar]

Although of course it's not hard to make that prediction now, in the
clear light of hindsight.

[guy4...@gmail.com]

It's a Raleigh Competition from the early 70's.  Though it originally came with tubulars I converted to the common 27" of the time when I got tired of repairing the "sew-ups".  Not even aware of "700C" then.  Lots of clearance so originally ran 27"x1-1/4" (Avocet at the time).  Should easily take 1-1/2" wide.  Haven't measured the frame yet but a 700Cx38 should fit, maybe wider.

And, yeah, a conversion would be required -- from 27" rims to 700C rims. Would reuse my ancient Phil Wood hubs, just because.
Cheers!

[mitch....@gmail.com]

Chainstay clearance may be the limiting factor fitting large tires on that early 70s Raleigh Competition. Recently converted a 1974 International to 650B for my daughter and used 584-32 with about the right amount of room. 38mm might barely fit but I didn't have tires around to try. Chainstays would defiantly prevent the fat 700C tires mentioned even though there would be room at the seatstsy bridge and fork crown.

The shape and diameter of Raleigh chainstays from the era make indenting them problematic even for those willing/capable to indent 531 stays.

--Mitch

[Steve Palincsar]

On 11/30/2016 09:25 AM, guy4...@gmail.com wrote:
> It's a Raleigh Competition from the early 70's. Though it originally
> came with tubulars I converted to the common 27" of the time when I
> got tired of repairing the "sew-ups". Not even aware of "700C" then.
> Lots of clearance so originally ran 27"x1-1/4" (Avocet at the time).
> Should easily take 1-1/2" wide. Haven't measured the frame yet but a
> 700Cx38 should fit, maybe wider.
>
> And, yeah, a conversion would be required -- from 27" rims to 700C
> rims. Would reuse my ancient Phil Wood hubs, just because.

Other than a wheel swap, what else do you believe would be involved in
the conversion? Brakes probably would not be an issue, and they're
usually one of the main sticking points.

[Ryan Watson]

I just sold a Competition GS. Had 700C tubulars originally, I rode it for a while with 27x 1-1/4. I test fit 650Bx38 and it was pretty much perfect! 42mm was too wide for the chainstays. 

Ryan

[Scott Stulken]

grep (I feel like something magical should happen when I type your name), if you haven't ordered tubes yet, I'm really digging the Schwalbe SV14As that Compass has made available on their site.  Pricier than run-of-the-mill tubes, but very lightweight and no less reliable for me than other makes/models.  I ordered a handful to spread out the shipping cost.  :^)

- Scott

[Steve Palincsar]

On 11/30/2016 11:58 AM, Scott Stulken wrote:
> grep (I feel like something magical should happen when I type your name

only if followed by a regular expression and a filename

> ), if you haven't ordered tubes yet, I'm really digging the Schwalbe
> SV14As that Compass has made available on their site. Pricier than
> run-of-the-mill tubes, but very lightweight and no less reliable for
> me than other makes/models. I ordered a handful to spread out the
> shipping cost. :^)
>

I've participated in group orders of tires and tubes from Compass on
more than one occasion. Buy $200 (easy to do with tires!) and shipping
is free.

[Ryan Watson]

I used the 14A during my last weight-weenie phase. They are very light and hold air pressure for weeks without topping up, just like the heavier Schwalbe tubes.
However, I found I got flats more often compared to the SV-12. YMMV of course.
With all Schwalbe tubes: if you use a pump head that screws onto the valve, I recommend you cinch down the valve core to prevent accidental removal.

Ryan in Albuquerque

[Reed Kennedy]

I'm glad the Schwalbe SV14A works for the folks who like it, but they do not work for me.

Running them in my Babyshoe Pass tires on my Velo Routier I also found I got significantly more flats than with other tubes, such as the SV12. I found that frustrating but forgivable. 

Then I had my front SV14A split along a seam and immediately lose all pressure. It was at 40psi (had checked the pressure that morning) and I was riding home down Market Street in San Francisco. Another commuter wobbled toward me, forcing me to roll over a pothole at about 12mph. The tube explosively decompressed. When I pulled the tire I found a two inch long split. That's less forgivable, and I don't run SV14A tubes anymore.

Note: I'm 6'3, weigh 210lbs, and the total weight including the bike and the stuff it was carrying is likely in the neighborhood of 260lbs. Perhaps lighter folks would do better. As for me, I'm happy with the SV12 until I upgrade this bike to tubeless.

Reed

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[Chris Cullum]

I haven't had any issues thus far with the SV14A however I had a mystery slow flat with the SV12 recently. The tire lost pressure overnight and when I went to find the source I couldn't find any holes in the tube or evidence of anything puncturing the tires. Turns out the valve stem came detached from the tube. I wasn't using dork nuts or anything that should have put any strain on the valve. I've only seen this happen only el cheapo tubes before so I was surprised to see it on a Schwalbe tube. Hopefully this was just a rare occurrence.

[guy4...@gmail.com]

Would only anticipate lacing up the new rims (but would need to research specific rims, esp. width) and assess just how wide a tire I could use.  Brakes no a problem converting to 700C as they are the original Weinmann centerpulls fitted with the original tubulars. 

Conversion to 650B, as Mitch mentioned above, would be more problematic.  Wider tires a possibility but the likely need for a new brakeset would add significant cost.  Either way would like to re-use the old Phil hubs as 120 mm spacing more and more difficult to find (Compass Bicycles one source but spendy).
Cheers!