any initial impressions of switchback hill tires?

[nm matt]

anyone have initial ride impressions and width info after they have been inflated a bit? i am trying to decide between these and the RTP's for a build i am working on. any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

[Fred Blasdel]

I've ridden about 2000 miles on the prototypes in the last two months, with a lot of that being loaded bikepacking on dirt roads and singletrack. For me they'll totally replace both the Babyshoes and Thunder Burts

They're an honest 48mm on normal rim-brake 650b rims, and around 50mm on wide MTB rims like the Stan's Flow or WTB i23

The ride quality is fantastic, the file tread pattern is significantly deeper/coarser than previous tires, so the cornering tread really hooks up now on both dirt and pavement. The "tubeless" bead is better too, it seats automatically at low pressures instead of suddenly snapping into place on a TLR rim.after overinflating a little.

On Thu, Sep 10, 2015 at 7:16 PM, nm matt <ma...@modulusdesign.com> wrote:

anyone have initial ride impressions and width info after they have been inflated a bit?  i am trying to decide between these and the RTP's for a build i am working on.  any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

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[Jon Doyle]

I put the Switchback extralights on my SS CX bike last week; used on some urban, dirt road, and single track rides thus far. I was running ridiculously low pressures, thanks to slow leaking tubes. Still super fast and so comfy.

I also go the Rat Trap Pass (reg casingway) on my commuter/shredder ('93 Trek 930). They roll quite fast and the ride is smoooooth. I'm hopping stuff and leaning into corners like a fool.

If choosing just one, I'd go with the Switchbacks. Better suited for the type of riding I mostly do on roads and packed trails. The extra width of the RTP is no doubt great on loose rocks and sand, but I'm seldom rolling on that stuff.

[Paulo Dias]

I just put them on and went for a short ride around the block and on that very short ride I can already tell that I am going to like these tires. I was coming from the veerubber speedster and these are on another category. Sure the speedersters are not so much of a pavement tire and I will have to test the switchbacks on gravel but I already liked the babyshoe so these are probably even better.
I can't wait to go ride that bike tomorrow.

Also what Fred mentioned I noticed immediately, the bead is so much better, they just sat perfectly at like 20psi instead of having to overflate so that would pop into place.


Mine measure 49mm on Pacenti CL25. Really amazing tires, compass did it again.

On Thursday, September 10, 2015 at 10:16:01 PM UTC-4, nm matt wrote:

[satanas]

Hmmm. I've been riding on Hetres (mostly touring, mostly on road) and the Soma 300g slicks (red tread) since March and was seriously considering changing to BSP ELs once the Hetres wore out. The Hetres have been great on everything, with grip on all surfaces in all weathers, no punctures, little wear, and decent ride quality. The Somas are noticeably lighter and faster, but grip is dubious, they're almost done and they have some weird handling traits; they *will not* climb onto painted lines even in the dry, bouncing off instead. They also bounce or are steered off any vaguely linear road features, imperfections or repairs, not exactly ideal if you're in a paceline, or even just trying to ride up a kerb cut.  :-(

Perhaps I should be considering SBHs as the replacements, but are they likely to fit under Paul Racer brakes, with senders? (Frame doesn't exist yet, but I have the brakes.) That they can replace the TBs sounds very promising.

Later,

Stephen

[Chris Cullum]

On Sep 13, 2015 6:40 AM, "satanas" <nsc.e...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hmmm. I've been riding on Hetres (mostly touring, mostly on road) and the Soma 300g slicks (red tread) since March and was seriously considering changing to BSP ELs once the Hetres wore out. The Hetres have been great on everything, with grip on all surfaces in all weathers, no punctures, little wear, and decent ride quality. The Somas are noticeably lighter and faster, but grip is dubious, they're almost done and they have some weird handling traits; they *will not* climb onto painted lines even in the dry, bouncing off instead. They also bounce or are steered off any vaguely linear road features, imperfections or repairs, not exactly ideal if you're in a paceline, or even just trying to ride up a kerb cut.  :-(
>
> Perhaps I should be considering SBHs as the replacements, but are they likely to fit under Paul Racer brakes, with senders? (Frame doesn't exist yet, but I have the brakes.) That they can replace the TBs sounds very promising.
>

I think that SBH and fenders under Paul Racer brakes is too tight. Its already pushing with Hetres and full fenders.

[Stephen Poole]

That's what I figured, but thought I'd check. Just held the brakes up against the existing bike and it looks like they'll be getting towards maxed out, even with 42mm, so I guess they will work with 42 + fenders, or a bit larger without. I'm not fond of cantis and would much rather avoid them - or discs.

Later,

Stephen

[Fred Blasdel]

On Sun, Sep 13, 2015 at 6:40 AM, satanas <nsc.e...@gmail.com> wrote:

The Somas are noticeably lighter and faster, but grip is dubious, they're almost done and they have some weird handling traits; they *will not* climb onto painted lines even in the dry, bouncing off instead. They also bounce or are steered off any vaguely linear road features, imperfections or repairs, not exactly ideal if you're in a paceline, or even just trying to ride up a kerb cut.  :-(

The Switchback Hills do exactly the opposite!

Especially when new, the front wheel feels almost magnetized to painted lines as the chevron corner tread grabs on much more than the linear center tread

[Stephen Poole]

Thanks Fred; looks like I'm going to have to order a pile of stuff from Compass. (Rolls eyes.) Pity the exchange rate is about the worst it's been for 35 years or so. <sigh>

Later,
Stephen

[C.J. Filip]

Anyone use these tires on a Stag yet?  

[billiam]

Mitch Pryor put some on the Ramboneur & says, "Its kinda like riding in the clouds..."

https://www.flickr.com/photos/mapcycles/21137827120/in/photostream/

billiam in medford, or

On Fri, Sep 18, 2015 at 12:32 PM, C.J. Filip <c.j....@hotmail.com> wrote:

Anyone use these tires on a Stag yet?  

--

[Justin August]

What are the odds on combining these + Paul Racers + Fenders?

-J

[Chris Cullum]

Too tight I think.

On Sep 20, 2015 1:54 PM, "Justin August" <justin...@icloud.com> wrote:

What are the odds on combining these + Paul Racers + Fenders?

-J

[Nate P]

Wondering about Stag fit myself. Looks tight in the rear judging by the 42mm Baby Shoes.

[Nick Favicchio]

Fred can you give a bit more on the SBH vs Thunder Burt specifically? I'm building a bike for the type of riding you describe and would appreciate hearing more.

Especially w/r/t single track. That really surprises me.

[Tim Gavin]

Justin-

I run 38 mm Pari Motos with 45 mm VO fenders under Paul Racer (bolt-on) brakes.  

The Racers have excellent fender clearance, compared to R559 sidepulls where the arms push on the fender when the brake is applied.

The Racers have good tire clearance, but I have to deflate the front tire about halfway to get it past the open brake (the front brake doesn't open very wide, even with shorty KS Cross pads that don't hit the fork legs).

I'd have to measure carefully to see if there is room for a 42 mm tire and the requisite 50-52 mm fender.


As for braking performance, I find Racers to be no better than R559s--ok but not overwhelming.  But the Racers work much better with fenders.

Tim Gavin

Cedar Rapids, IA

[Fred Blasdel]

On Tue, Sep 22, 2015 at 3:09 PM, Nick Favicchio <nickfa...@gmail.com> wrote:

Fred can you give a bit more on the SBH vs Thunder Burt specifically?  I'm building a bike for the type of riding you describe and would appreciate hearing more.

Especially w/r/t single track.  That really surprises me.

They're both surprisingly bipartisan, I can still hold onto a 25mph paceline on Thunder Burts, and still corner hard on loose singletrack with SBHs.

I'll probably use the Thunder Burts as rear tires with a Rocket Ron or Racing Ralph on the front sometimes, but I expect to be using the Switchback Hills the vast majority of the time.

The only real downside to the SBHs is in straight-line traction and braking, they're no better than Babyshoes. They could even be worse, but that might just be in contrast to their outstanding cornering traction.

[satanas]

Thanks Fred and Tim,

FWIW, I'm pretty sure the Racers will clear a 42mm tyre and 50mm fender okay. I have that combo on the GR and it looks as though the Racers reach around everything okay, although they'd be near the bottom of the slot. The GR has lots of fender clearance though, so if things were a bit closer the pads could be somewhet higher up.

Fred, can you comment on the relative merits of the RoRo versus the RaRa? Where I usually ride it's mainly sandstone country, so hardpack with a bit of loose stuff, and occasional sand patches, no mud or soft soil. What counts most here is directional stability on sand and cornering grip on the loose stuff, plus low rolling resistance. Just about anything grips fine on the hardpack.

Later,

Stephen

[Fred Blasdel]

On Thu, Sep 24, 2015 at 9:39 PM, satanas <nsc.e...@gmail.com> wrote:

Fred, can you comment on the relative merits of the RoRo versus the RaRa? Where I usually ride it's mainly sandstone country, so hardpack with a bit of loose stuff, and occasional sand patches, no mud or soft soil. What counts most here is directional stability on sand and cornering grip on the loose stuff, plus low rolling resistance. Just about anything grips fine on the hardpack.

You'll want the Rocket Ron in front at least

The Thunder Burt does well as a rear tire for it, or a Ralph if you want a 2.3 there too. The next level up is to use a Nobby Nic on the front,

 

[Paulo Dias]

I just came back from a little new england/new york tour, we did about 350 miles. Did have 1 flat in long island (I don't blame the tires because the road we were in was gnarly). These tires are incredible. They did amazing on pavement and also very well on the gravel sections we took. Comfortable like nothing else I have ever ridden. Nice grip when cornering and tougher than they look. I can feel a nice difference btw these and the babyshoes. If your bike can fit them, place an order now, seriously.

On Thursday, September 10, 2015 at 10:16:01 PM UTC-4, nm matt wrote:

[Stephen Poole]

Thanks Fred - Just what I needed! (Schwalbe tyres are expen$ive here in Oz so best not to make too many errors.)

[Tim Gavin]

can you order from bike-discount.de?  They have great prices on Schwalbe tires, and reasonably-priced (but slow) shipping (from Germany).

Tim

[Steve Park]

Has anyone tried fitting these on a Boulder All Road?

[Justin]

Just recieved the SBH tires for my rSogn. Looks like there is enough space for the tires plus fenders, less space at the back but more than adequate. I'l post photos before the fenders go on.

 

Looking at my Boulder AR, I expect they would fit with no fenders but haven't tried yet.

[WMdeR]

Dear Steve,

The fork clearance on the Allroad is a limiter--a true 48mm width is about as big a tire as will fit between the fork blades with any clearance. Consider that a 55mm-wide fender has to be dented slightly to fit between the tangs. Similarly, the chainstays are ordinarily set/dimpled to clear  50mm (maximum), so a 48 is as big as you want there. 

Best,

Will

William M. deRosset

Fort Collins, CO

[satanas]

Can somebody who has the tyres please post the radius (or diameter) in mm? This would really help figure out the chances of getting them to fit into various frames and forks.

Thanks,

Stephen

[Dave Johnston]

Stephan,

I measured 345mm radius from axle to ground. Inflated to about 55psi (I'm pre-stretching them and letting the beads settle in place)

-Dave

[Dave Johnston]

Also I deflated down to 26psi and the tires (Superlight model) are currently reading 48.5mm width on PL23. They started at 47mm

-Dave J

[satanas]

Thanks Dave, that helps a lot! Will measure a few things when I get home tomorrow and see what my chances are.

Later,
Stephen

[Mark in Beacon]

Sorry I'm a bit late on this thread. I was planning to try the Switchbacks on my commuter bike, which sees a combination of smooth and rough pavement, a mile of diamond plate bridgeway, and a bit of hard dirt path, slightly more on weekends. But 90% would be straight, relatively smooth pavement. Fred, is it your opinion that the Switchbacks are not the optimal tire for this application? (Flat resistance is not an issue for me in making a decision. Knock wood.)

[Fred Blasdel]

On Sat, Oct 31, 2015 at 7:08 AM, Mark in Beacon <absolut...@gmail.com> wrote:

Sorry I'm a bit late on this thread. I was planning to try the Switchbacks on my commuter bike, which sees a combination of smooth and rough pavement, a mile of diamond plate bridgeway, and a bit of hard dirt path, slightly more on weekends. But 90% would be straight, relatively smooth pavement. Fred, is it your opinion that the Switchbacks are not the optimal tire for this application? (Flat resistance is not an issue for me in making a decision. Knock wood.)

You won't have any trouble with them in that application

[Paulo Dias]

I ride them as my commuters, that bike sees multiple uses. I have had a couple of flats (not during the commute though, and we are talking about NYC). One of the flats was because I arrived at camp and rolled the bike through some rose thorns so that was not the tires fault. There is no flat protection but tires still very durable and perfect for all the pavements you have described.

[Mark in Beacon]

Thanks.

[Philip Kim]

Just wondering from those of you with these tires, how they are holding up? Thinking about using it for a commuter 20 miles a day on pavement. Is the EL worth it?

[mitch....@gmail.com]

I think the EL is the reason to get Compass tires. The EL isn't for weight savings (not that you thought that but others have) but for the suppleness and it's very noticeable going from the same Compass of GB tire EL or regular. BabyShoePass ELs have held up well for me on several bikes. I just installed a pair of off-topic Rat Trap Pass EL which are reports to have similar width/height as the SBH--no riding yet. For commuting on Compass tires I'd start with EL and see how they do (mine have been fine). For tire performance it makes more sense to me to start where you want to end up and test whether it works rather than work your way there in increments.

--Mitch

[Philip Kim]

Mitch, thanks for your feedback. Looks like yours have held on several bikes, so it's probably more durable than I first imagined. Ordered a pair and waiting for them to come in!

[Steve Park]

What is the tire height of a Switchback Hill?

The choke point on my bike is the seatstay bridge fender boss, and I'm trying to figure out how much taller SHs are than Babyshoes.

[WMdeR]

Dear Steve,

a few photos of a SBH on a Boulder Bicycle Allroad here: scroll to the end of the Allroad photoset 

The SBH 48's EL fit the Allroad fine for dry-road and wet road use as long as the local clay content isn't too high--sticky mud would probably start packing up the fork, but I don't have a lot of clayey roads around here.. They do fine here in the foothills of the Front Range and out in Weld County. They're also serious-if-comfortable overkill for unloaded use for anything less than rough doubletrack fire-roads. Thirty-eight to 42 mm tires take care of anything at all maintained as a "road" in my experience (at 30psi or so), and then fenders fit the Allroad fine. 

File-tread 38's and my Allroad were the fastest-rolling machine out on the RMCC anti-epic course on Saturday. 

I got dropped like a bad habit pretty quickly by the first chase group (there were two way off the front of this "timed open road event"), but like a bad habit, I clawed back on repeatedly for the next three hours by letting the bike roll on the washboard and stutter bumps. It was a good day.... They eventually rode away when I ran completely out of gas and finished twenty minutes clear, but it was exactly as much as I could do in six and a quarter hours or so, and it was a good crowd of folks. 

Cheers,

Will

William M. deRosset

Fort Collins, CO

[Lee Legrand]

Hi William,

I was looking at your photo album on piccaso and saw you had the switch back on your All-Road bicycle.  I brought this question up in another thread started by me using these tires and you answered most of them.  One thing that although the 48mm tires will fit, Jan mention that these tires will swell with use up to 51mm which leaves you with really tight clearance all around.  Please report back if you begin to experiencing rubbing of the tires or riding issues when these tires swell.

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[Ryan Ray]

Anyone know if they fit on a v1 Soma GR? The V1 has a supposedly "worse" fork crown but is super wide so I don't see any issues there. The rear though... anyone actually do this?

- Ryan

[Fred Blasdel]

On Mon, Apr 4, 2016 at 10:49 AM, Lee Legrand <krm...@gmail.com> wrote:

One thing that although the 48mm tires will fit, Jan mention that these tires will swell with use up to 51mm

Jan measures tires differently than most people, with his "hot dog in a hallway" caliper technique.

I'm riding the oldest most stretched Switchback Hills, one of mine is 48.5mm and the other is almost 50mm, on modern MTB rims with a 23mm inside width. On normal rim brake rims with a 18mm inside width the larger one would be true to size.

[Steve Park]

I had to look that up in the urban dictionary.  A bit of strange in this context.

[Jan Heine]

I don't think we measure differently - we all are concerned about the space the tire needs to rotate. All we've done is develop a repeatable and replicable method to measure tires. Basically, if you just squeeze calipers onto the tire, your measurement depends on your calipers (how much friction they have), on the person doing the measurement, and even on the air pressure pushing back against the caliper.

If you find the point where the caliper barely has "play" on the tire, you have a repeatable measurement that is independent of your calipers and of who does the measurement. It'll be 0.1-0.2 mm wider than the tire, but on a bike, simply being able to squeeze the tire into the space is of little use. The wheel actually must turn to be useful! And that is what we're measuring.

Between the two of us, it doesn't matter much - your measurements are very, very close to mine. But I've had others measure tires and come up with much narrower values that what we measure...

Jan Heine

Compass Bicycles Ltd.

www.compasscycle.com

Jan measures tires differently than most people, with his "hot dog in a hallway" caliper technique.

I'm riding the oldest most stretched Switchback Hills, one of mine is 48.5mm and the other is almost 50mm, on modern MTB rims with a 23mm inside width. On normal rim brake rims with a 18mm inside width the larger one would be true to size.

--

[satanas]

FWIW: I haven't tried it but there's ~8mm or so each side with Hetres at the chainstays, so it should be fine if the seatstays clear. (I cannot measure now as the bike is on another continent.) Whether there'd be acceptable fender clearance is another matter.

Later,
Stephen

[David Cummings]

People have asked about fit with Pauls and fenders. How about with Raids and fenders?

David Cummings
Kalispell, MT

[WMdeR]

Dear David,

Sbh will fit with Raids or the Compass repro and fenders if the bike is designed appropriately.

I sqeezed a pair onto my Allroad, and they just fit between the fork crown and chainstays.

However, a ride with Boulder Bicycle head Mike Kone led to a long chat about the design needs of a machine to take advantage of the SBH tires (with fenders) and something frisky in the 2.1" range without. We'll see where it goes.

I ordinarily just roll away from Mike on descents. He was on my bike, and I was on one of the (excellent) shop bikes with BSP EL's, and I was drifting his bike around the corners--and still losing ground--on one of his pet unpaved-road sections.

The effect was not subtle off-pavement--they were comfortable, still fast, and stuck to the road better. They are overkill for typical county-road conditions, and lose a step out of the saddle, but for a dedicated drop-bar off-pavement machine, they are a better solution.

Best,

Will
William M deRosset
Fort Collins CO

[David Cummings]

When you say "they," you mean the SBH's, not the BSP's, correct?  I ask because I'm thinking of one of those two for some gnarly Forest Service and county back roads.  The term "road" is used loosely in this sense.  Some roads seem paved with river rock, others haphazardly carved out of bedrock.  Descents can be hairy and I'm sick of pinch flats with narrower tires (28mm just doesn't cut it, 32mm is barely enough when riding cautiously). 

Thanks,

David "bomber" Cummings

Kalispell, MT

[Jan Heine]

We'd love to sell you a set of our Compass brakes for a bike that will run the 48 mm Compass Switchback Hill tires, but honestly, the brakes (and the Raids that use a similar geometry) were designed for up to 43 mm tires and fenders.

You can squeeze wider tires into the space, but you'll run into a few issues:

1. The clearances are inadequate for safe and comfortable gravel riding. On gravel, you really should have at least 20 mm, better 25 mm, between tire and fender. Any less, and you'll hear a lot of small stones rolling between tire and fender, and you always risk the dreaded fender collapse that can send you over the bars.

2. The brake won't open wide enough to let the tire through without deflating. I realize that many wide-tire brakes don't do this, but to me, that is unacceptable, which is why we designed the Compass brakes to open wide enough to pass the widest tire for which it is intended (43 mm) without needing to deflate it.

Without fenders, you can fit a wider tire safely, and the Switchback Hill should fit inside the Compass brakes (and Raids). With fenders, it's best to stay within the design parameters of the brake, rather than take unnecessary risks. It's not like the Babyshoe Pass will feel like "underbiking" on gravel.

I agree with Will that for most riding, the 42 mm Babyshoe Pass is a better choice. It's just much easier to design a bike around them, and you also maintain the "road bike" feel, especially when sprinting out of the saddle. However, like Will, I have experienced the amazing traction of wider tires off-pavement, and it's simply better. Riding 42 mm Babyshoe Pass tires is great, but then you get passed by somebody on the wider ones who usually is slower, and you realize there is yet another step up.

On the other hand, then you have gravel racers like Matt Surch, who feels that the narrowest tire you can get away with is the best choice. You can read the interview with him here:

https://janheine.wordpress.com/2016/04/11/gravel-racing-on-compass-tires/

Enjoy!

Jan Heine

Compass Bicycles Ltd.

www.compasscycle.com

--

[David Cummings]

Fun blog post, Jan!  

It sounds like Babyshoe Pass will be the way to go.  This is also for a very light person, just over 100 lbs total for rider and bike, so 42mm tires will likely be plenty.

As I read through your post and I read through the technical specs for both Babyshoe and Switchback, I see that only the Switchback is specifically designed to be run tubeless.  That's the tire that would more appropriately be run either with cantilevers or, more likely, disc brakes, especially if adding fenders.   Lots of frame clearance needed too!  If you're already running disc brakes, I'm guessing you're also already leaning toward tubeless-ready tires.  I see the logic in the development of the SBH.

Best,

David Cummings

Kalispell, MT

[Fred Blasdel]

On Mon, Apr 11, 2016 at 5:18 AM, Jan Heine <hei...@earthlink.net> wrote:

On gravel, you really should have at least 20 mm, better 25 mm, between tire and fender. Any less, and you'll hear a lot of small stones rolling between tire and fender, and you always risk the dreaded fender collapse that can send you over the bars.

A full inch of tire clearance is an extraordinary amount of room! The biggest Honjos with the most tire wrap are barely that tall, and nobody's setting up their fenders with daylight showing through from the side.

I've found half that to be a conservative amount of clearance, with no noise from small stones

You can also do well with less if you don't have big M6 nuts taking up room inside the fender from the use of eyebolts

[Skylar Nagao]

Just wanted to add another data point: Switchback Hills measured 50.14mm on my DT XM401 rims (22.5mm internal width, 27mm external)

[Hunter Avis]

Ryan, before I re-post, did you ever get a reply to this?  With Horizons test mounted the bike has good clearance.... but I don't know how SBH will be.