Which 650B rim to buy ...

[Nick Bull]

I am planning to build up a new dynamo wheel around a SON-28. Tires would typically be Compass Babyshoe Pass or Grand Bois Hetre 650Bx42.

Use is primarily for randonneuring.  So, mostly paved roads but occasionally gravel.  I'd like a rim that will last 20,000+ miles without cracking or wearing out.  Typical maximum load (me+bike+luggage) is around 250 pounds.  The rim needs to be as heavy as required for that sort of use, but I'd rather not carry any unnecessary weight.

Currently looking at Grand Bois rims from Compass (468 grams), Pacenti PL23's (454 grams), and Velocity A23 (435 grams).  Might consider Velocity Synergy but I've had several of those crack so I am leary. And getting tires properly seated on Synergy's seems quite tricky even using Jan Heine's trick of double-layered rim tape.

I would probably go with PL23's since they are on sale. But I don't need tubeless-compatible and wonder if that makes flat repairs notably more difficult than a non-tubeless-compatible like the Grand Bois or Synergy's.  It's nice to be able to take the tire off and put it back on without needing any tools.  If that's not easy with the tubeless rims, then it might be worth $50 more for the Grand Bois.

Comments welcome.

Nick

[Chris Cullum]

If you are considering the PL23 why not go with the SL23 which is also on sale? It's a more robust rim. The Dyad is pretty good choice too.

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[Chris Cullum]

Oh and there is no way I would expect the PL23 to last 20k mi. No way.

[Chris Cullum]

For reference I wore off the rim wear indicator on mine in <5000km or 3k mi. That's a lot of wet riding but still.

[Nicholas Bull]

Thanks, Chris,

Was your PL23 the current version or the prior version which I understand was not as robust?

The SL23 isn't available in a 36-spoke version, and I was thinking that building up with 36 spokes makes a stronger wheel.  I was also thinking that the SL23 is less robust since it weighs less, though I realize that the shape of the rim design makes a difference.

FWIW, we have Dyad's on the tandem.  I figured that they are overkill for solo use.

Nick

[Harald Kliems]

Data point: I measured the brake track on the SL23 when new and it was about 1.45mm.

 Harald.

[Mike Schiller]

the Dyads are not that heavy at 540 gms.  I would go with Dyads if you are talking 250 lbs loaded up.  I'm about the same with bike and gear.  Then you could go with 32 spokes which is what I use.

~mike

Carlsbad Ca

[Jim Bronson]

I bought a pair of SL23s and I've got 50 lbs extra on your setup.  It will be interesting to see how long they last.

[Chris Cullum]

On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 7:03 PM, Nicholas Bull <nick.bi...@gmail.com> wrote:

Thanks, Chris,

Was your PL23 the current version or the prior version which I understand was not as robust?

Old version but I think it is just the spoke bed that has been beefed up not the sidewalls IIRC.

The SL23 isn't available in a 36-spoke version, and I was thinking that building up with 36 spokes makes a stronger wheel.  I was also thinking that the SL23 is less robust since it weighs less, though I realize that the shape of the rim design makes a difference.

I thought the SL23 weighed marginally more than the PL23 but I could be wrong. I know it used to, maybe the beefed up PL23 is now heavier. I tend to think the V shape tends to be more robust in general than a box shape if all things are equal. Are they ever? I can't really comment on the SL23 but I have 3 that are waiting to build up.

FWIW, we have Dyad's on the tandem.  I figured that they are overkill for solo use.

The Dyad is considered a bombproof rim but it's not that heavy really. Sub 500g in 650B I think. That's a few grams heavier than the Synergy for example but not a lot. I think the brake track on the A23 is too narrow. It's *barely* the width of a brake pad. Any wear and it's going out of adjustment.

--

Chris Cullum
Vancouver, BC

[Mike Schiller]

well not that much ... about 225lbs with bike and gear,

mike

[satanas]

Sound to me from comments here and in my thread on non-tubeless rims that the preferred options for a front wheel might be as follows:

1. Minimum weight, durability unimportant - old PL23
2. Light but reliable - SL23
3. Easy tyre changes - maybe GB

For a heavily dished rear seems like things are different:

1. Light - SL 23
2. Less dish - A23 OC
3. Easy tyre changes - maybe GB again

I'm likely to be building another set later this year, with a Nigel Tufnel approved rear hub ("It goes to 11"), so rear wheel durability is going to be important. FWIW, I've never yet worn out a rim, but less dish could only help. Not so keen on narrow brake tracks though...

Later,
Stephen

[Philip Kim]

Kirks got a sale on SL23. Not as pretty looking at the A23 or GB, but they have nice design that is durable and light.

I used to have a pair of synergys, but cracked after 1000 miles. I try to avoid box rims now, as they have to maintain a certain level of tightness (not too tight, not too loose).

[DanB]

I've been really happy with my Velocity Atlas rims.  They are fairly heavy but tire changes are a breeze and they have proven durable on some pretty rough roads and trails.

[Richard L.]

http://store.velo-orange.com/index.php/components/wheelsets-rims-hubs/rims/vo-diagonale-650b-rims.html 

[Nick Payne]

On 10/04/2015 23:15, Philip Kim wrote:
> Kirks got a sale on SL23. Not as pretty looking at the A23 or GB, but
> they have nice design that is durable and light.
>
> I used to have a pair of synergys, but cracked after 1000 miles. I try
> to avoid box rims now, as they have to maintain a certain level of
> tightness (not too tight, not too loose).

There's nothing wrong with box section rims per se - with double-wall
eyelets, such as on the Mavic MA2, they can take extremely high spoke
tensions without any problem. I've been riding on MA2 rims for about 30
years, and can't recall ever having one crack at the eyelets. I still
ride MA2 rims, as when Mavic stopped making them I didn't think much of
the MA2 replacement, so I went round the local bike shops and bought
what they had of MA2s to keep as spares. I still have three or four of
them waiting to be laced into wheels.

Our of curiosity I just stuck the tensiometer on a pair of MA2s that I
built onto Campagnolo Record 10-speed hubs about a dozen years ago, and
which must have covered several tens of thousands of kilometres by now
(riding in a dry climate means that rims last a long, long time). The
front wheel spokes are around 115kgf, the rear spokes are around
155/90kgf DS/NDS. No sign of cracking around the eyelets whatsoever.

Nick

[Jeff Bertolet]

I would avoid the Diagonales. I got them because I could get them at wholesale prices. Paying retail, there are better options. Though I personally wouldn't spend $30 more on the the Velocity Atlas over the diagonale (similar weight, similar profile).

Weight for rim: 550g.

They are highly polished, even the braking surface, which needs to be unpolished before use. Otherwise they make horrible squealing.

It took a little work when installing fresh tires to get the bead to seat. Had to overinflate and lube the bead with some water/alcohol. They are wider than most similar rims at 25mm, which may be worth considering if you are swapping back and forth with other rims.

On Friday, April 10, 2015 at 5:13:16 PM UTC-4, Richard L. wrote:

http://store.velo-orange.com/index.php/components/wheelsets-rims-hubs/rims/vo-diagonale-650b-rims.html 

[Jeff Bertolet]

That may have been a bit harsh on the Diagonales. They are basically the Sun CR18 rim, but wider. Too bad they cost double what the 650A CR18 rim (ISO 590) costs.

If I was going to spend $100/rim, I would get the GB's.

[Geoff]

Just another data point -- I have a rear A23 wheel that got a hairline crack in in after about 3K-4K miles.  I just discovered this after riding another 600 miles or so, which explains the wobble i was getting for last few months.

I'm thinking the Dyad might be a beefier option for big guys like us. The Longleaf site says it is "Strong enough for tandem and mountain bike use."

Geoff,
Boston, MA

On Wednesday, April 8, 2015 at 9:26:28 PM UTC-4, Nick Bull wrote:

[Jim Bronson]

Geoff, about how much do you weigh?

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Keep the metal side up and the rubber side down!

[Geoff]

funny how on a bike forum, we can ask direct questions like this!  :)

I'm 215 (and 6'5"), but with my saddle fairly even with my handlebars, i expect there to be a bit more weight on the rear wheel. 

Additionally, I try and ride a lot of New England dirt roads, which means the occasional rocky section. 

thus, a stronger rim is preferred, and I'm not so concerned about weight.

Geoff

[Charlie Cho]

I didn't like the Diagonales at all. The set I built up refused to be truly straight. There were continuous tiny lateral wobbles that couldn't be smoothed out. I had the same experience with polished silver CR-18s with Advanced Brake Track. Satin silver non-machined CR-18s never had this problem.

--

[Chris Cullum]

On Apr 11, 2015 3:31 PM, "Jeff Bertolet" <jbf...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I would avoid the Diagonales. I got them because I could get them at wholesale prices. Paying retail, there are better options. Though I personally wouldn't spend $30 more on the the Velocity Atlas over the diagonale (similar weight, similar profile).
>
> Weight for rim: 550g.
>
> They are highly polished, even the braking surface, which needs to be unpolished before use. Otherwise they make horrible squealing.
>
> It took a little work when installing fresh tires to get the bead to seat. Had to overinflate and lube the bead with some water/alcohol. They are wider than most similar rims at 25mm, which may be worth considering if you are swapping back and forth with other rims.
>

A clubmate of mine also said he has trouble getting the bead to seat straight on these rims. They do look pretty much like a CR18.

>
> On Friday, April 10, 2015 at 5:13:16 PM UTC-4, Richard L. wrote:
>>
>>
>> http://store.velo-orange.com/index.php/components/wheelsets-rims-hubs/rims/vo-diagonale-650b-rims.html 
>

[Nick Bull]

Thanks for all the comments.  I'm leaning toward Grand Bois at the moment, figuring that a "lifetime" of easier tire changes is worth the extra cost over the current sale price of the (very-nice-looking) Pacenti rims.  I've had too many Velocity failures over the years and for a rim that I want to ride on PBP, I think I will skip Velocity this time around.  (That said, the Synergy that is on my current Schmidt hub has been running fine since I built it up in 2011 and rode it in PBP that year; but the hub is a 2005 that has well over 30K km so I am thinking that it might be trying my luck to ride PBP on a hub that has had that much wear.)

Nick

[satanas]

There seem to be reported failures for everything except GB and newer Pacenti rims. I'm sure some attrition is to be expected, but (for instance) I have Mavic Open 4CD rims built in 1989 that are still going, so making a reliable rim - for not-so-heavy riders at least - shouldn't be all that hard.

Later,
Stephen

[Jim Bronson]

I have not had any rim related failures on the Soma Weymouth, but tires blow off so easily.  sigh......

I find at least the problem is less with lower air pressure so I am running 45/55 now despite the fact that I weigh 260 and my total setup weight is probably pushing 300....

I'm going to pick up some PL23's to replace the Weymouths, I talked with Kirk himself and while didn't seem super wild about the combo for my weight he said he was willing to warranty it if I break it, so that's good enough for me.  He said the new PL23s were also heat treated which I did not know.

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[Philip Kim]

This is part of the reason I called it quits with my 650b bike and got a 26" with bigger tires. I couldn't find any rims that would seat Hetres easily. Even used stans tape, and jane heine's double rim tape method as well. Trying to seat tires turned into hour long tasks.

While the 26x2.15 switch has been more convenient, the 26" tire market is lacking in high quality wide tire department. Hopefully, the new Compass Rat trap pass will be nice.

-Phil

[Jim Bronson]

I was resistant to 650B for many years due to the fact that I'm very tall and used 180+ cranks.  Well now that my knees and I are older, I've backed off the crank lengths and thusly 650B in my mind became a much better option, but I have more problems with pedal strikes on 650b.  Well, I don't know if I'd call it a "problem" per se but I have more pedal strikes than I did on 700c.  I have learned over time to pedal more conservatively and that has pretty much resolved things, but every once in a while I catch myself by surprise with a strike.

I think I would have to go to a bike with a higher bottom bracket to do 559.  Not really willing to go there as I like the bikes I have, so I'm staying with 650b.

I would also say that, for a bike starting from 700c to begin with, 26" is going to be a harder conversion.  If you have a purpose built 650B bike with calipers to begin with, probably not as difficult, but still, I don't have a bike like that.  Maybe someday, but I certainly won't convert it to 26" even at that.

Plus, I feel that the more we support the 650B ecosystem, the more options for rims and tires we will have, so there is that factor to consider as well.

For all these reasons I don't see 26" as an option on my fleet, I'm sure there are others in similar situations.  For any 700c bike with 70mm or more of BB drop, I think it's a really bad idea to consider 26", even if the brakes can be made to work.

[Kieran Joyes]

Anyone have experience with the 650b Dyads? How is seating a Hetre on those?

KJ

[Philip Kim]

All makes sense Jim!

I forgot to mention I'm 5ft 6.. and use 165 or 170 cranks. The 650b option is definitely a viable option for cushier ride while keeping the same wheel diameter.

I would definitely like a 650b again in the future as the newly revised Soma GR has some changes I like. But just pre-ordered the Ravn, so will have to do some saving before I get back on the 650b market.

I've heard good things about the Velocity A23s.

[Chris Cullum]

On Tue, Apr 14, 2015 at 7:54 AM, Kieran Joyes <kjo...@gmail.com> wrote:

Anyone have experience with the 650b Dyads? How is seating a Hetre on those?

IME Hetres seem to seat fine on Dyads.
 

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Chris Cullum
Vancouver, BC

[Mike Schiller]

For me Hetres are a loose fit on my Dyads. I had to inflate them to about 65-70 lbs to get them to seat on the rim straight.

~mike
Carlsbad Ca

[Kieran Joyes]

Mike, is it due to an undersized rim diameter, or a too-deep well? Was the over-inflate then attenuate the only remedy you found to work with the Dyads?

I'm trying to identify the best rim for Hetres - seems like almost every rim has some shortcoming, maybe with the exception of the newer Grand Bois extrusion. 

KJ

[Geoff]

I contacted Velocity about my rim, and they're going to take it back, replace (and rebuild it) and keep the old rim as forensic evidence.  Sounds good to me, and they said for the A23 rim and Grand Bois Hetre 42mm at 50-55psi., "With the tires and pressures you’ve used, I would not expect a failure like this." 

geoff

[Mike Schiller]

Not sure of the cause. I'm guessing it was small rim diameter since the Hetres fit loose.    It didn't happen every time I installed the Hetres,but when it did the over inflating did the trick.  I've been running knobbies on that bike lately since I got a new dedicated Rando from Fitz Cyclez.  I have the A23's on the Fitz and those fit up tight but straight.

~mike

[Chris Cullum]

Here is a list of actual measured 650B rim weights (no, I don't own a shop...):

PL23 (old extrusion): 399g

SL23: 428g

Synergy 454g

A23: 427g

Dyad: 495g

-Chris

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[Nick Payne]

Weight of a particular model rim can vary by up to 10% depending on the stage in the lifecycle of the die used to extrude the rim section. Sections extruded from a new die will give the lightest rim - as the die wears during the course of its life, the sections extruded become thicker and the rims made from it heavier.

On 21/04/2015 05:46, Chris Cullum wrote:

[Chris Cullum]

On Apr 20, 2015 4:57 PM, "Nick Payne" <nick....@internode.on.net> wrote:
>
> Weight of a particular model rim can vary by up to 10% depending on the stage in the lifecycle of the die used to extrude the rim section. Sections extruded from a new die will give the lightest rim - as the die wears during the course of its life, the sections extruded become thicker and the rims made from it heavier.
>

Sorry actual measured weights was the best I could do ;-)

>
> On 21/04/2015 05:46, Chris Cullum wrote:
>>
>> Here is a list of actual measured 650B rim weights (no, I don't own a shop...):
>>
>> PL23 (old extrusion): 399g
>> SL23: 428g
>> Synergy 454g
>> A23: 427g
>> Dyad: 495g
>>
>> -Chris
>>
>> On Tue, Apr 14, 2015 at 9:28 PM, Mike Schiller <mikey...@rocketmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Not sure of the cause. I'm guessing it was small rim diameter since the Hetres fit loose.    It didn't happen every time I installed the Hetres,but when it did the over inflating did the trick.  I've been running knobbies on that bike lately since I got a new dedicated Rando from Fitz Cyclez.  I have the A23's on the Fitz and those fit up tight but straight.
>>>
>>> ~mike
>>>
>>> On Tuesday, April 14, 2015 at 6:53:30 PM UTC-7, Kieran Joyes wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Mike, is it due to an undersized rim diameter, or a too-deep well? Was the over-inflate then attenuate the only remedy you found to work with the Dyads?
>>>>
>>>> I'm trying to identify the best rim for Hetres - seems like almost every rim has some shortcoming, maybe with the exception of the newer Grand Bois extrusion.
>
>

[Nick Bull]

Well, thanks for all the advice in this thread.

Here's my bike on its first ride with the new wheels that I built.  I bought the Compass Grand Bois rims, an Ultegra rear hub and and SON28 front hub, and Wheelsmith DB14 spokes to match.  Compass Babyshoe Pass tires are mounted.  The wheels feel lively and light.  (FWIW, it's a Gunnar Sport with a Waterford fork I had built for 650B's--basically it's the Boulder Bikes Allroad fork.  It's PBP-bound for a third time.)

Nick9