Source for Affordable 650b Wheel Sets with 120 and 126 Spacing

[Gary Jacobson]

Folks-

I imagine this topic comes up from time to time. My efforts to find affordable 650 b wheel sets  with 120 and 126 spacing using freewheels is going no where. 

I am developing plans to do public demonstrations in a community where there is a multiprong initiative to promote cycling. We expect that the bikes in people's garages from the 70's and 80's have 27inch wheels and thus will not accept tires adequate for comfort and safety on  the tyical broken hard road  and gravel surfaces here. We wish to show people how to make their bikes useable, if they have the necessary specs, for conversion to 650b.  I think that if we are to succeed we will need to be able to point people to sources for 650b wheels that are inexpensive enough that the total cost of conversion is less than a new bike. We are in a rather remote community with no repair services, but the population is well adapted to being self sufficient. We think that they would likely be interested in adapting what they already have on hand as this is consistent with their values and ways. 

Whether or not the population embraces this effort, I will need a set of affordable wheels for the conversion of a Japanese outfitted Motobecane Grand Jubilee (ca 1978?) slated for use as the demonstration bike.

Last year a search for machine made  650b road rim brake wheels was fruitful, but not now. 

Has anyone have any ideas?

Thanks.

Gary Jacobson

[David Parsons]

You can occasionally find the sta-tru wheelsets on amazon and/or ebay (though the front wheels appear to be out of stock in both places) but the disc wheel craze makes it really hard to find anything inexpensive for rim brakes.    You'd probably be better off contacting an economy wheelbuilder like sta-tru directly and doing bulk orders directly from them?

[Jack Fortune]

How about: 

1. buy new rims

2 lace them to existing hubs

Jack Fortune

Eugene, Oregon

On Wednesday, July 19, 2017 at 9:10:52 PM UTC-7, Gary Jacobson wrote:

[Gary Jacobson]

I've never built wheels before, but hope to learn that process. The folks we expect to consider these conversions have less experience than me. Thanks. Gary

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[desmond...@gmail.com]

This makes No sense at. 26 inch tires are both the most abundant an cost effective .. your being a little to hip for actually solving the problem at hand.. when thru all this with Africa bike..program, lazy an stupid people more concern with going to rock concerts than work..

Sent from my iPhone

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[desmond...@gmail.com]

What program ? Where? Who's values an ways.. do they use old out dated food an Medicine , is that their values an ways as well?? 

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 19, 2017, at 9:10 PM, Gary Jacobson <gary.ja...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Gary Jacobson]

Sorry to offend you. I'd much prefer to use 26 inch wheels. Are there good brakes with arms long enough to reach a 26 inch wheel? The 750 Weinmann brakes on the demonstration  conversion bike already will work with a 650b wheel, and they are relatively common. Your suggestion that I rethink this though is a good one. The old Mtn bike standard is more practical than 650b.  Gary

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[mikel...@juno.com]

Gary,
How about 27" to 700c conversions instead for all those older bikes.
Mike Goldman
Rhode island
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[David Parsons]

On Thursday, July 20, 2017 at 6:20:03 AM UTC-7, Allan Desmond wrote:

This makes No sense at. 26 inch tires are both the most abundant an cost effective .. your being a little to hip for actually solving the problem at hand.. when thru all this with Africa bike..program, lazy an stupid people more concern with going to rock concerts than work..

Converting a machine from 630 to 559 wheels is quite a jump, and trying to make up for it by tire size is likely to run into the frame, no? 

[Gary Jacobson]

I think that a 1.5 inch tire is the minimum width that works on gravel rail trails and broken hard surfaces. In your experience, do 700x37 tires fit in a bike originally spec'd with 27 inch wheels with enough clearance for safety? 

I am up in Maine working on the concepts and don't have many choices in wheel sizes available

 to fit into the conversion frame.

While I like 650b for me, I agree with the sentiment that either 26 mtn bike of 700c is a better conversion when considering availability of wheels and tires.

Thanks Mike.

Gary

[Phil B]

I agree with those that are redirecting you to 26"or 700c, though given your need for fat type road tires 26" might be the most available or inexpensive.  The cost estimated by both myself and a LBS owner to convert a 700c, or possibly 27" hovers around 700$ - not including fenders or labor, or the price of cantilever brakes for the 26" bikes.  The use of the old Weinemann 750 are both problematic to set-up and provide little in the way of braking. They will slow the bike down but are poor at STOPing. Mountain or offroad biking, or riding on loose descents could be dangerous. YMMV.

The setup and maintenance of these brakes is something a beginner should not attempt.  Better to stick with tried and true 26" or 700c.

The 650b remains an exotic or boutique item - not a beginners venture. IMHO

Phil B

 
On Wednesday, July 19, 2017 at 9:10:52 PM UTC-7, Gary Jacobson wrote:

[Paul Clifton]

On Thursday, July 20, 2017 at 9:59:48 AM UTC-4, Gary Jacobson wrote:

 In your experience, do 700x37 tires fit in a bike originally spec'd with 27 inch wheels with enough clearance for safety?

I can usually fit 700x38 in bikes that I convert from 27".

Horizontal rear dropouts help with chainstay clearance, but have not been necessary, just nice to have.

Brake reach has never been a problem.

I've done this to four bikes, so not definitive, but it's a definite possibility.

Paul in ATL

[Max]

Gary, 

The folks have some good advice here. I'll add my perspective... 

Among various activities and courses, I teach (engineering) design. It is good design practice to first find out what the user or customer wants / needs. Not what the designer *assumes* they need, but what they actually need. 

In this case, you are starting with an assumption that the people (your users / customers) have 700c or 27" wheeled bikes already in their garages (do they have cars, too?..), and further assuming the rear OLD is 120 or 126 mm. The other assumption is that what's keeping them from riding are skinny tires. 

It's not clear from your description that these are validated assumptions. The only way to validate those assumptions is to talk to the people in the community extensively and find out why they aren't riding already, and also find out what they might like about riding, provided it could happen. Only then does it make sense to consider different solutions that *accomplish the same functional outcome* – meaning in this case, people riding their bikes on the (bumpy) roads. 

As Phil B noted, the price of a single, decent 650b conversion can run over $700; for that sum, you could buy several serviceable 26" bikes with 2" wide tires. Yes, the tires may be knobby, but rolling resistance is the least of their problems right now... 

- Max 

[desmond...@gmail.com]

The point is there is a abundant amount of used 26 Mtb about.. old ones for free at most times. The cost an supply of not only tires but tubes as well.. 

Sent from my iPhone

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[desmond...@gmail.com]

Consider mtb have been around since the mid 80's an hit their full stride in the 90's.. makes them over 30?years old.. no shortage of them lying about. 

Sent from my iPhone

[David Parsons]

Yes, but if you lower the bottom bracket so much that the pedals can't rotate it's a false economy.

[Steve Chan]

   I think it makes a lot more sense to convert 27" to 700c rather than 650B. A 27" wheel should fit a 630x32mm tire, if you go to a 622 wheel you should get 4mm more in there, so a 700x36 tire should be safe.

   The 650B tire size only makes sense if you have a dedicated bike nerd handy, or else you're a mountain biker.

   I wouldn't trust any caliper brake to convert a 27" wheel to 26" - at that point people should ditch the old 27" wheel beater bike and get the beater mountain bike and put cheap road slicks on it.

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[Gary Jacobson]

Thanks so much for the input. All of it is useful. Some details: Cars and poor road surface were sited by those surveyed as reasons that they avoid bicycling. We do have a gravel rail trail, and for that and the roads a Mtn. bike with decent tires is great. Also there are many of rough road opportunities around here. The point about assumptions is critical. I approached this project with the idea of seeking to offer an option for those with skinny road tired bikes, and considering what my needs are as one who rides allroad kinds of bikes. Also the point that people have (hopefully rigid) Mtn bikes in their garages is critical. The focus of any training offered to the community would be how to adapt what ever bike one may have to  optimize enjoyment and safety rather than how to convert an old road bike into an allroad bike.

This area in Maine is undergoing development of scenic bicycle byway and when I did a test ride of a route last week in the rain I considered the necessity for fenders, especially when I deviated from the scenic bike bywayand took the rail trail. Also it was evident that fat tires were the way to go. Then we got a donation of the Motobecane and I thought how I could make that into the best possible all road bike for this area. 38 mm 650b tires with fenders would have been great for that ride. But are people we seek to enage going to riding in the rain? Not likely, and thus no fenders are necessary, especially when I take into consideration the strong points pushing away from 650b and to go with 700c. 

I just came back from a ride on the bike I have that is least like a allroad machine. This Centurion Super Tour is the braze on center pull model. I converted it to 700cx32 with fenders, with a 650 option that I never tried. The brake pads on the Weinmann 750 calipers are in the uppermost position possible. 

The route I took included both decently paved and the most extreme roads I ride- usually either on a 650b low trail Tom Matchak designed for gravel, or more commonly on a 26 inch wheeled Atlantis. I recently rode these rough roads on a 20 year old very good race mtn bike as a test and to reacquaint myself with this bike prior to giving it away. I had not been on that bike for 15 years. The contrast between  Centurion and the Trek Mtn bike were startling as expected, yet I had fun underbiking on the Centurion. (It certainly was not an experience that would have been enjoyable to anyone uncomfortable with underbiking.)  While out there musing about my experiences and your input I realized that I should convert this Centurion to a 650b, and use the 700 wheels on it now for the demo project.  The Centurion was reset to 130 OLD so the rear wheel will need to be respaced to be used on the Motobecane which I've read is 120 OLD.

Once again, I appreciate your thoughts and input. Keep 'em coming if you have them. I clearly have biases that need challenging!

Gary

[Brad]

I have done several conversions.  Your thought on 70's and early 80's frames converting to 650B are dead on.
But ...
here are the challenges:
The typical Shimano freehub available in the broad market is 7 speed.  A wheel can be laced to fit 126 on that hub, but 120 requires some really fancy modification of the axle cones.
That leaves freewheel compatible hubs.  5 and 6 speed freewheels are still made and will be for a long time.  Installed base world wide assures that.  China and India specifically assyres that.  Getting new freewheel compatible hubs could be a challenge.

If a large enough order were placed, I am sure one of the international wheel suppliers would meet it.
Hand lacing wheels takes some time, even for the experienced.
I try to do one a year so that I don't lose the skill, but we ware still talking an evening lacing and then someone tensioning and truing.

The result can be sublime. 
Badly maintained streets cease to be an issue with 650B tires, while being a challenge for 700 C offerings even up to 32 mm.
It also solves a problem for an aging heavier population by getting a tire in place that can handle a load without pinch flats.
Gravel roads cease to be scary.

Of course you could use 26" wheels, but the brakes would be an issue.  Most mountain bikes had canti brakes or the like on brazed on mounts.
That is a trip to a frame builder with an old frame.  And then a repaint.
The hub problem described above persists.

Perhaps we can get a vocational school somewhere in the U.S. to teach wheel building. 

[desmond...@gmail.com]

I guess if your trying to make a " make work learn skill discipline" program out it then that's one way for all the wasted effort for small return. If its get a " a taxi fleet of real usable bicycles an people using them"., an cost - then Just stick to setting everything on MTB an 26 inch .. easy an smarter.,do not use anything other than Mtb bicycles .. unless keeping it a real Road bicycle.. is this program for to feel good an have fun or to make something happen for others to really use?? Your call. Cheers Allan  

Sent from my iPhone

[David Parsons]

Your idea of a 26" fleet is a good one, but it's not the "take the 27"ed machines out of people's garages and make them more suited for unimproved roads" of the original post.   And IMO the proper thing to do with the 27" machines is to get 700c wheels and put Resist Nomad 35s under them, but that's a third and even less appropriate for the 650b list discussion!

[Nick Favicchio]

Gary, I sling used bikes for a living running a non-profit bike shop.

People do not gravitate towards old 27" 10 speeds. People do gravitate towards old 26" rigid mtn stuff. Drop bars and poor standover height are deal breakers for people either new or coming back to bikes.

You may also be pleasantly surprised by how many people have old 26" rigid or hard tails in their garage. These are much more cost effective to get going again. Some wide smoothish rubber (Kenda Cross tires are cheap), a nice upright riding position and components that work - you may have someone choosing the bike again.

Ymmv