I Join Scudder And Matt In The Drink

[Daniel Spada]

Ice Colleagues,

On a wonderful skate on beautiful ice on Lake George this morning, I took a quick swim.  From the perspective of me falling in, it's difficult to say what actually happened because it happened so quickly.  We were skating on 4" black ice.  I had already seen and avoided a wind hole that had skimmed over.  I veered from my path to go toward another group of skaters that were going to join us and....suddenly I'm in water in a skimmed over wind hole.

I was wearing all the, in my opinion, essential safety gear - drysuit, helmet, pads, ice claws, ice pike, PlurrPack*. 

There was no cold shock.  I was traveling quickly and did bump my nose on the ice in front of me.  With all the flotation I had, I never went in above my heart level.  My ice claws attached to my PlurrPack strap were never below water and they were anchored firmly enough so I knew exactly where they were.  Initially I turned back the way I came and tried to swim myself out without using the claws.  Every time I lifted myself onto the ice, it cracked and gave way below me.  I then pulled the claws and attempted to pull myself out but the ice kept breaking under me.  Others had asked if I wanted a rope and to that point I indicated that I didn't need it.  After continually breaking through, I finally asked for the rope.  Two were dispatched.  One was unsuccessful; the second was right on and I was pulled to good ice.  I believe that the first rope was not weighted like a Nordic throw rope (it may have been a whitewater throw bag) and the wind blew it off course and away from me.  Could I have self-rescued?  I think so.  I would have had to break through more ice and I would have been tired, but I was not cold and believe I could have pulled myself out as I have done it before.

I had read Evan's very detailed report on LG yesterday warning about this type of hazard.  I had already located and avoided one.  What happened?  Several things perhaps.  1.  Ice Exuberance - Beautiful plates of black ice for as far as you can see.  2.  Sun glare - Skating into the sun reduced my ability to see the differences between 4" black ice and 1" ice on a skimmed over wind hole.  3. Inattention - I was focused on joining my friends a ways away.  When I finally got out of it, I could clearly see the white ice "collar" that denoted the edge of the wind hole.  This collar is created when wind pushes water up onto surrounding good ice that then freezes and is often a telltale for this type of condition.  I just wasn't paying attention.  

Immediately upon leaving the water all closure devices - zippers, velcro, laces - froze solid.  Dr. Jo quickly suggested removing my blades to drain and work the bindings so they would not freeze up and be unremovable.  It was in the teens with a wind so as soon as I took off my mittens (leather choppers with wool inserts), my hands froze and became nearly unusable.  Thanks to my daughter, Redia, for going into my dry bag in my pack for my stashed mittens.  I think it may have been ok to keep my wool mitts on because my hands were ok until I took them off.  Wool warms even when wet.  That's something to experiment with. My boots were full of water but I was totally dry in my Kokatat suit; this is probably the 5th time I've plurred with this suit either on purpose or inadvertently and water has never touched my skin.  The suit is 7 years old.  

Because we were close to the car I opted to skate back to it and empty my boots in warmth where the laces could be re-tied and we could eat lunch out of the wind.  On the way back one of our group fell and apparently suffered a dislocated shoulder.  Fellow skaters helped her back to her feet, ascertained she was not in shock, and she was able to skate back to shore.  We always talk about falling through the ice.  Much of the fear that is engendered in us and those who don't venture on ice regularly is based on this.  We talk much less about falling on ice.  Based on what I saw today and what I've experienced in the past, if I were out on a lake by myself I think I would be more concerned about damage to my body from falling on the ice and not being able to self-rescue, than falling through the ice.  Don't get me wrong; I wouldn't want to do either and I'm not weighing one against the other.  I only mention it because we should be prepared for as many contingencies as possible.

In hindsight:

1.  I should have been more vigilant.  As Matt Steinberg noted previously, you really can't let your guard down.

2.  I should have suggested and practiced deploying throw ropes with my colleagues.  One throw rope was blown aside by the wind, another took time to deploy because it was stuck in a pack. When was the last time you tried to access and throw one quickly and accurately? 

3.  I should have thrown my own throw rope.  My rope is easily accessible over my right shoulder in a custom made holster.  My throw anywhere on the ice in front of me would have been easily retrieved by my colleagues; theirs had to be spot on.  In my opinion, it's very important for you in the water to deploy your throw rope.  This is an about-face for me, but I think it's the way to go.

I had all the gear necessary for me to self-rescue or be rescued with little discomfort or risk.  I have often visualized what would happen and how I would react in a case like this.  I was with a group.  The drysuit made all the difference.

I ask that any of my colleagues who were with me please feel free to chime in with other information or insights that I may have missed.

Respectfully submitted,

Dan

*The PlurrPack is something I put together that combines a PFD with a pack.  Ice claws are attached in the correct position.  The throw rope is housed in a reduced friction holster that is easily accessible and deployed over the shoulder of the throwing arem.  A crotch strap is integral.  It's my way to keep aging brain cells from screwing up having to remember all the regular safety gear that you should carry.  See:  https://youtu.be/coGauur4joo and https://youtu.be/kWUt2hADUtg

[Scudder Kelvie]

Thanks for this great report, Dan! This is very informative. Hope everyone in your group is doing well.

And thanks everyone for the replies to my post from yesterday. All great stuff adding to the knowledge base, mine and everyone else’s. There’s been so much information pouring in generally, and from all over the place, that I don’t know what else to say.

But I’ll add that a few of us went back to Holcomb access today, had a grand time, a longer skate than yesterday, and I managed to stay on the dry side of the ice this time (as others have reported, though, in the south wind it was really active, rapidly-changing ice).

Thanks again (and hoping to get out on Lake George, carefully, tomorrow),

- Scudder

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On Jan 25, 2025, at 7:28 PM, Daniel Spada <spada...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Evan Perkins]

Great report Dan, a lot to be learned from that for us all. 

   A couple of notes, first on the mittens. A member of the crew that I skate with, who is a bit of a daredevil and prone to going through the ice, has been wearing neoprene mittens, made for white water Paddling. They have worked very well for him even on cold days, keeping his hands warm while they are wet and not having to use his back up mittens. I am considering getting a pair of these as well. I do think that boiled wool mittens inside a shell also can work well, particularly if you can ring them out as wool really does retain warmth better than any other material when wet. 

    As far as throw bags, a couple notes: first, I have been a bit resistant to set up my pack with a Swedish style holster with the rope, actually connected to the shoulder strap of my back, maybe it's from my white water experience I've never wanting to be connected to a rope that I cannot let go of. But I have been thinking recently that although I have not personally encountered the situation where it's been necessary it is definitely something that I am going to do for myself and also encourage for the crew of folks that I skate with. I think it is time that we normalize throwbag use, I think for the first few times that any of us have gone through the Ice it is important to practice getting out on your own in a real life situation. for folks who are experienced skaters ,and Skating on Ice where going through is just the reality sometimes ,normalizing the use of throwbag and therefore limiting the amount of time that swimmers are in the water, whether they are wearing a dry suit or not is really the best way to go. Consequences of being in the water longer mean more frozen gear, wetter, boots, and  dry suits develop leaks overtime ,even a small leak can get you a bit damp if you're in the water for three minutes as opposed to 20 seconds. For folks who are not wearing dry suits this is even more critical. There is just a massive difference between being in the water for 15 seconds as opposed to a couple minutes, which it will typically take for someone to get out unless they have fallen in directly on a hard ice edge , I have been in the water without a dry suit and gotten out very quickly such that I really didn't need to change my clothes, or sometimes only needed to change my socks and pants, but not my top layers as the water didn't really make it through . Only having to partially change is a big difference from having to get Buck naked in the middle of a windy frozen lake !Throw bags that are easily accessible can be deployed instantly and weighted Nordic skating Throw bags are very easy to properly aim  and rescue a person they do not require a lot of practice to throw. 

    Your experience of having a properly mounted throw bag and not using it to throw the throw bag out of the hole to your rescuers is definitely reinforcement to me that there is a time and place for that kind of throwbag mounting and it's something that I am going to make a part of my system it was just hard to visualize before, but your example makes it pretty clear that it could've gotten you out of the water much quicker.

   As always, thanks for the great reporting and insights, Evan

   Ps as an additional note for those who carry throw bags, but I have never rescued someone with them. Make sure you're on supportable Ice .throw the throw bag directly at the person sliding it across the ice to them. If you miss them, pull it quickly back and throw again it has a weight and can be rethrown easily. Direct them to grab the rope not the bag so that you don't have to pull out all of the slack in the bag before you can start pulling them out. Anchor your skates, perpendicular to the victim. At that point you can pull them out. It does take some force initially to get them over the Ice edge, you can encourage them to kick, but their hands will be occupied holding the rope. Also, it is possible if you're having trouble getting them over the Ice edge to side step away from the ice edge so you can use your legs to do the work for you. Once they are on the ice  pull them to safety so that you know they are on thick ice before they let go of the rope. And then you can gently suggest that they are paying for post Skating beers!

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[Ben G]

I can imagine grabbing a thin rope, with wet/frozen gloves could be challenging. You'd need a very strong grip from the person in the hole so it doesn't slip. Or you would need to instruct them to wrap the rope around their hands so it doesn't slip; which could lead to secondary safety issues (cutting off circulation) and it could take time to instruct this and execute it, while the shocked person is getting their bearings. Grabbing the handle at the end of the bag could be more straightforward. But I could theorize all day long and be wrong.

Has anybody here tested and compared both methods; having the rescue-ee grab the rope vs grabbing the bag handle?

Thanks,

Ben

[Evan Perkins]

From my experience, with several decades of running white water and receiving throw ropes in ice filled New England streams with bare hands, grabbing a throw rope with hands and mittens or gloves is really not very difficult. Perhaps if someone had been in the water for 10 minutes already, but typically in that situation rescuing someone means that you need to go in and get them out . I have been rescued by a throw rope and seen many others rescued by a throw ropes. There has never been an issue for people holding on, and the 15 or 20 second saved by not having to reel all of that Rope is valuable. The handle on the bag is not really meant for that but if for some reason someone can't grab the rope it's a back up, but I think it should be considered as a back up not the first go to . This is only my opinion based on personal experience and research into Scandinavian rescue systems. Evan

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[Evan Perkins]

I think one thing that is important to note is that when you grab a rope with two hands, you tend to naturally put a bend in it .that bend creates friction against your hand, meaning that you are not holding onto the line with your grip strength alone it is being bent around your leading hand And held against it by friction. I also do not recommend people ever wrap ropes around themselves, if for any reason you need to unwrap it, that can be very difficult, particularly in freezing water with gloves,

[Ben G]

Great experience and thought process. I wonder if the force needed to pull someone from the water onto the ice is significantly greater than the force needed to pull someone through water to shore/boat. If so, that difference in force could cause rope slippage. Small nuances can have big implications. 

Anyone here have experience rescuing someone froma plur when the rescu-ee held onto the rope and not the bag? If not, is anyone here willing to volunteer getting wet and doing the experiment?

Thanks,

Ben

[Evan Perkins]

It is also important to know that in the Swedish system, the handle on the throwbag is meant to clip into a carabiner that is attached to your backpack. This is a back up emergency system in case you have a throwbag thrown to you, but your hands are too cold to hold onto anything. The Caribiner is located on the front of your shoulder on the backpack so it is pulling you from the underside. If you have a sweetest style throw rope mounted on your back. The rope also runs through that carabiner so that when you throw out of the hole, you're being pulled from the underside . That is why the handle is on the bag.

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[Daniel Spada]

To continue the discussion of throw bags.  Here is a photo of a Skyllermarks Nordic skating throw bag.  It is weighted, has a nylon web loop on the weighted end of the bag, approximately 80' of line that floats, a handle on the end of the rope and a metal ring.  The instructions (use Google Translate) are fairly sparse on directions but say to attach the plastic handle to your (the thrower's) waist belt, practice throwing the line, stow the line in the bag between uses otherwise UV will deteriorate the rope, go to Skyllermarks website for more information.  I've been told the metal ring is to step on as an anchoring point on the ice.  Don't know how you can do that and still attach the handle to your waist belt.  The nylon webbing loop is on the weighted end of the bag and is meant for the person being rescued to put their arm through or to hang on to.  THis photo shows the "holster" I noted in my report that is attached to the side of my PlurrPack and is easily accessible over my right shoulder.  The holster is a lightweight 4" PVC pipe with a perforated lid glued to the bottom to retain the throw rope and drain water. 
 In the heat of the moment I did not deploy my rope, which was probably the better option.  Maybe next time.  The blue nylon webbing in the photo is attached to the handle of the throw rope and to my PlurrPack so when I do throw the bag, it is automatically attached to me.  I hope this makes sense.  I was able to easily hold on to the rope that was thrown to me with my soaked leather mittens.  I did not hold on to the bag or to any loop on the bag.  I highly recommend purchasing a dedicated Nordic skating throw rope.  Keep the whitewater throw bags for summer use.

[Adam Bright]

Hey Dan (et al),

I've only been skating for a couple years, but I wanted to respond to something in your message.

You wrote that the directions "say to attach the plastic handle to your (the thrower's) waist belt, practice throwing the line, stow the line in the bag between uses otherwise UV will deteriorate the rope, go to Skyllermarks website for more information.  I've been told the metal ring is to step on as an anchoring point on the ice.  Don't know how you can do that and still attach the handle to your waist belt." 

I use the Lundhags Secura straps to allow me to have the throw rope attached to my waist belt while also allowing enough material to be able to use the metal ring underfoot as an anchoring point. The strap also offers a carabiner access point on the chest--the kind that Evan was talking about. 

Basically, it's just a strap with loops at either end. One loop goes through your throwline handle; the other threads through your backpack waistband (similar to how many crotch straps attach). It would be pretty easy for someone to rig up on their own approximation of it. You wouldn't need to special-order a piece of nylon strap from Sweden (like I did, when cooped up and clearly understimulated during the pandemic). 

I'm doing a bad job of explaining it now because I'm (1) tired and (2) am intimidated describing knots/straps to a group of knot-and-strap-knowledgeable people. But if you watch this video starting at second 45 (just after he explains, in Swedish, how the crotch strap works) you can see it being demonstrated.

https://youtu.be/D8fJl9sKrtY?t=45

Just mentioning this because Dan made an interesting observation and I thought it might help others to ensure that they don't have any restrictions on their throwline's full functionality.

--Adam

[Matt Steinberg]

---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: Matt Steinberg <fios...@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, Jan 26, 2025, 10:01 PM
Subject: Re: [vtnordicskating] Re: I Join Scudder And Matt In The Drink
To: Adam Bright <ambr...@gmail.com>

Ben,

In response to your question, each year I go in voluntarily a few times at our clinics and demonstrate picks as well as let people practice deploying ropes to me. I have done this several times and always just grab the rope. I bend it once around my hand while wearing boiled wool mittens inside a shell. I have never had any issues with the rope slipping or being pulled out of the ice. It is generally a pretty quick and simple process.

Matt

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[Ben G]

Excellent data point Matt, exactly what I was looking for.

Thank you,

Ben

[Scudder Kelvie]

I don't usually get involved in gear discussion, especially with folks much more knowledgeable than I am, but for what it's worth, I carry the Skyllermarks rope in a side pocket of my pack. I do not keep it attached to me, because as I think was already mentioned, the idea of having something attached to me that I can't easily release under strain makes me plenty nervous. I've practiced with it and it's easy to use.

Also for what it's worth, I'll share a video which some folks probably haven't seen, showing (I think) this same brand in use in real-world, real-time, as in, this person got video of their own plurr. It's from the Stockholm Skating Club (SSSK) and looks like very early-season skating, on very sketchy ice.  The outcome confirms the sketchy part. If you look closely during the first few seconds you can see plates flexing at very wet seams. It doesn't have good footage of the actual line toss, but appears to be a case of the rescue-ee sending his own line over to someone. Note that two people take the line, one behind the other, and don't seem to be having a hard time with it. I can't tell if the line's attached to the rescue-ee or not:

https://youtu.be/aSMDjfPcBlo?si=uRRJ3nLZbZWDZsAG

But most importantly, note the overall calm in the situation, the relatively relaxed demeanor of all involved, the relatively slow pace of things. There's even a little laughter. Almost like it's not that big a deal, just an event we'd all rather avoid.

Best,

- Scudder

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[Daniel Spada]

Scudder,

Thanks for the video.  It's always good to see how others do it.  It's interesting to note that two of the three that went in the drink did not seem in a rush to change out of wet clothes.  Even on an above freezing day, I'd want to get those things off and get into dry clothes.  Note that the guys pulling on the rope were trying to set their skates sideways to get traction.  The lack of drama is fantastic.  It's just another day on the ice.  Jamie Hess has been to Sweden and can weigh in here on how they do it.  My understanding is that no one wears a dry suit and, although not desired, plurring is not an unexpected event.  

Here's a link to a video in which Rob O'Brien and I demonstrate rescue with a throw rope either from the ice to the water or the water to the ice: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QaO40ym7H_A&list=PLABo8e4x2SwSQqoXCezqYspW_FB7IO2UZ&index=27&pp=gAQBiAQB. Of course this was shot under relatively controlled conditions but I think it touches all the bases.

Best,

Dan

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[Tom Duca]

I was one of the two people who helped pull Dan out from his Plurr in LG. 

The entire situation was very calm and orderly. We verbally communicated with Dan continuously.  He was not in any immediate danger. He was not injured and had a dry suit on. 

The first throw rope was blown down wind. With the second one he was pulled out from two rescuers who were standing up and had their skates turned 90° to the rope we were pulling. I personally did have the rope twisted twice around my hands for a better grip. 

Yes, the Swedish ice seems like a pretty new, very clear, black ice and thin plate. 

There are many people standing nearby on what appears to be a plate of more opaque/older ice. 

It is interesting that it did not appear that the person in the water attempted a self rescue but waited to be pulled out. 

(I like the little flag on the rescued person pack)

Thank you,

Tom d. 

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[Sandra Owens]

Skaters

I’m loving all these convos about plurring. As a (daily) cold water swimmer, practicing getting out of the water is priceless in my humble.

Enjoy!

Sandra

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On Jan 27, 2025, at 1:26 PM, Daniel Spada <spada...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Pam Pearson]

Hi all and greetings from a very grey and no-ice southern Sweden thus far (you all are killing me with the photos of your great Vermont ice!).

So some translation and comments here:

Yes, this is a typical Swedish långfärdsskridsko rescue, and it actually usually is this calm — and virtually no one wears a wet suit (except Jamie when he visits LOL).  SSSK has only experienced skaters, as well (you need to be able to keep a certain pace and demonstrate good safety practices).

As someone comments below, this is VERY thin ice and you need to expect this might happen.  But they were also taking the normal new black ice precautions: especially, skating (mostly) in a long line rather than side-by-side, with two clear leaders who are experienced and there to keep things safe: one in “front" reading and probing the ice, one the “tail” or sweep at the end to make sure no one falls in unnoticed (both with the cute little red flags LOL — but the reason for the flags is to make sure everyone stays in-between these two under such conditions especially).

As sometimes happens on ice this thin, most of the group managed to get past the weak spot, but then things got “interesting” and the last few could see water come up and likely felt the ice going beneath them.  Those last few immediately got down on their bellies to spread their weight out, using their ice picks to pull themselves to the thicker ice ahead, which they could see was holding for the main group. That’s what the cameraman was doing, until he finally felt he was on thick enough ice to push on the ice and stand up (actually needs to be a bit thicker than when you are simply standing in place).

The “tail leader” likely DID try once or twice to get himself out, but with ice that thin it keeps breaking beneath you (which is the most exhausting and dangerous kind of situation if alone).  So by the time the cameraman got up, the “tail" was indeed waiting to be pulled out rather than wasting energy and breaking the ice further, which also would have  endangered his friends-rescuers.

Happy (and safe) skating on that beautiful ice!

Pam

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[Daniel Spada]

Pam,

Thank you for the Swedish insights and I’m sorry you don’t have ice there yet. Perhaps the video was cut off prematurely, but it didn’t look like there was much of a rush to change clothing. Is that also typical? Would those folks who had gone in just kept skating?

Best,

Dan

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 27, 2025, at 14:51, Pam Pearson <pampea...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Hi all and greetings from a very grey and no-ice southern Sweden thus far (you all are killing me with the photos of your great Vermont ice!).

[Pam Pearson]

Hi Dan-

They were discussing where to go onshore for those who needed to do so, to change — they were not so far out, and it is always far easier and more comfortable on land (plus not unusual for someone to bring some kindling to start a fire for added warmth, also simply for the “mysfaktor” (cozyness) on breaks!).  I think there is no footage of that also because I suspect the cameraman himself needed to change!, looked like there was water on the ice when he was pulling himself forward even if he never actually broke through.  

On a sunny day like that without wind, and likely not too cold they would indeed take the time to get to shore, break out the dry clothing and warm coffee.  Then skating on!

Best!

Pam

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