Mini/Micro Lathes and Mills

[Geoff Robson]

Good Morning All,

I joined the group here a while back looking to build some knowledge on small scale machining.

I'm mostly interested in machining from the perspective of a scale Modeler.  I don't currently have any machining equipment, however in the new year I am hoping to get a small lathe and mill.  

Are there any members here who work on a small scale?

I'm still trying to figure out which set up will be best for my needs.  Some of the set ups i'm looking at include the Unimat SL / Unimat 3, Proxxon PD 250, Sherline or the Seig X2 mill or equivalent...  i will probably look at going CNC as well, either converting standard equipment or CNC ready...

Does anyone have enough experience with these small scale lathes and mills to have an opinion?

As mentioned, my interest originates in scale models, but I would more than likely be interested in working at a slightly larger scale as well...  mostly brass and aluminum, but may occasionally want to work with steel.

Obviously, this will be a learning curve - do any of the continuing ed programs offer an into to CNC?

Geoff Robson

[David Wrate]

Hi Geoff, I don’t have experience with any of the machines you mention but I do now that the Sherline machines are highly regarded any time small-scale, high precision work is mentioned.

I know of a fellow in Calgary selling a full Sherline set up.

https://canadianhobbymetalworkers.com/threads/sherline-lathe-mill-and-tooling.2670/

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[roryn...@gmail.com]

A few years ago my brother bought a Lorch watchmaker's lathe.  He's pretty happy with it.  This is not his, but pretty close to what he got.  He also has a Unimat and likes the Lorch a lot better

[Ian Paterson]

Hi Geoffrey,

I bought my Chinese 7x12 mini lathe and X2 mini mill back in 2007 from Princess Auto and have been fairly happy with the purchases. Since then, I've converted the mill to CNC and done some minor mods to the lathe for added features, improved performance or to correct some problems.

If you've been doing some research and watching videos, then maybe you've already heard that the Chinese Mini Lathes can be cheap, but the quality is quite variable and often the user has to correct shortcomings or fix defects before the machine runs satisfactorily.

I personally do not have experience with anything other than the Sieg-like Asian mini lathe and X2 mill, but for what it's worth, here are my thoughts based on what I've read and seen...

Really small lathes like Sherline or Taig: I've heard they're well made and very precise and it seems like they're best suited for model builders. Sherline has a zillion accessories for their lathes and mills, but the prices are rather high and can add up really quick. I think Taig lathes and mills may be a bit cheaper, but still quite capable for model builders in my opinion. John Bentley uses a Taig:

https://www.jrbentley.com/workshop.html

Proxxon: I think these are German and I assume are very well made and probably a pleasure to use. Still smaller than a Chinese 7x12 Mini Lathe though and more expensive. The Adventures With a Very Small Lathe Youtube channel has a lot of videos showing the Proxxon lathe. Incidentally, the author of that channel just bought a Chinese Mini Lathe and has made some videos about the problems he's encountered. I certainly didn't have as much trouble with my lathe as he did so this shows how the quality of these Asian lathes can vary greatly.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCgye4RmWOR8AmleinMxgbYw

Chinese 7x10 / 7x12 / 7x14 Mini Lathe: Generally pretty cheap and I suspect you'll get a better quality specimen if you buy from Busy Bee or Grizzly. I've compared equivalent lathes from Busy Bee and KMS Tools (they sell King Canada brand lathes) and I found the Busy Bee products had better documentation so I'd have more confidence buying something from Busy Bee. Avoid 7x10 lathes because they're just too short. 7x12 is ok in my opinion, but 7x14 would be nicer.  A chuck and drill in the tailstock uses up a lot of space and I'm sure you'd find a 7x10 to be pretty cramped. Avoid buying $700 mini lathes from eBay - I think they're just too inexpensive for the quality to be any good and I have a feeling that's why the Adventures With a Very Small Lathe fellow had so much trouble. A 7x12 lathe weighs about 80 lbs and can be easily carried by one person.

Chinese 10x22 - available from KMS Tools and Busy Bee: If I were going for a larger lathe, I might get one of these. They have a 1" spindle bore which is pretty big for a lathe of that size. At around 300lbs, these lathes are considerably more substantial than a 7x12. I would hope the quality would be better too, but since it's still an Asian import lathe, I wouldn't bet on it.

Myford lathes: Beautiful old British lathes with a bit of a cult following. These lathes have a capacity similar to a very long Chinese mini lathe, but surely they're more robust, hopefully better made and more powerful. I don't see them up for sale around here very often though. Geoffrey Croker restored a Myford ML7 on his Youtube channel:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DtKutRzSf0U

Atlas / Craftsman: I don't know much about these, but I've seen them come up for sale on usedvictoria every once in a while. I was a little put off when I read that these lathes were built to a price for the budget minded buyer and cut costs by making several components out of die-cast Zamac . Also, they're no longer made, so if you find a used one, it may be quite worn. The Mrpete222 youtube channel has a lot of info about these old lathes:

https://www.youtube.com/user/mrpete222

Some final thoughts:

I've been looking at bench-top lathes on usedvictioria for almost 3 years now and I've found the asking prices are often either too high or the condition is too poor, or both. Seems like you can find better deals on the bigger machines, but then of course you've got to have the space, the right power hookup and the means for transport. ...Maybe there's just more demand for benchtop machines in usedvictoria because not many people can accommodate a 12x36 lathe? I've seen what looked like a Unimat SL for sale on usedvictoria for $850. I can only imagine something like that being bought by a Unimat collector because it seemed rather old and likely to have problems with wear and/or missing/broken parts. ...Not to mention the fact that it's missing many of the features found on more modern lathes like threading capability or even a compound slide.

When looking at used lathes, neglect, minor rust and accidents are often easier to fix than wear. A worn out lathe will require a lot of work to bring it back to its original spec.

Avoid getting a lathe/mill combo machine. I've read too many complaints about them being a "jack of all trades and master of none" ...too many compromises to make one machine perform both roles. Often you'll find these combo machines have a huge swing for their size which means the carriage / top slide / tool post assembly is really tall. This is likely to be less rigid than a conventional lathe-only setup. Note: I'm talking about combo machines that are likely larger than you'll want. A Proxxon or Unimat with a milling column may be a different story.

You may have already heard this, but I'll say it anyway... If you end up using and enjoying your future lathe, you'll end up spending more on tooling than you will on the lathe itself.

The Sherline proponents sometimes say "Why waste time fixing a lathe's problems when you can be working on projects instead?". I guess this depends on your sensibilities, how much you value your time and what you want a lathe for. For me, I'm not into steam engines, expensive RC models or telescopes, so I've accepted the fact that I like machining for its own sake and I end up just machining parts and tools to improve my machines. With that said, if I bought a Sherline, or a Proxxon, I'd have nothing to do 😉. On the other hand, it looks like you have a specific goal in mind and maybe you don't want to spend time fixing up a machine before you can use it for your next project.

I do occasionally use my lathe for general fix-it jobs around the house like repairs to my son's RC car or fixing stroller wheels, but the precision required for jobs like that isn't very high and even a sub-optimal Asian lathe can handle jobs like that right out of the box.

 My personal recommendation: If you can afford it, you'll likely get much better quality and more pleasure out of using a non-asian lathe like a Proxxon, Sherline or maybe even a WABECO D4000. If you'd rather start with a smaller investment and don't mind putting in some work, buy an asian mini lathe from a reputable local vendor like Busy Bee. If you're a daredevil and like living on the edge, get the cheapest mini lathe you can find on ebay or aliexpress.

 

I've published a few of the mods I've done to my mini lathe on my website:

http://www.ianpaterson.org/projects/MiniLathe/index.htm

...Since late February, I also made a set of tapered saddle gibs, but I don't have those posted on the website yet.

And finally, what I've just written here is my opinion.  ...and you know what they say about opinions.

I hope you're able to find something of value in my long-winded message.

Regards,

Ian

[Geoff Robson]

Thank you David, Rory and Ian,

you've certainly had some good advice.  I think for me right now, the debate, as Ian outlined is the choice between Higher price/better quality/perhaps less capacity of Sherline/Proxxon or Lower INITIAL cost/lower quality/Larger machine.

I think the next move is to create a spreadsheet with pros/cons and Upfront Cost, plus additional tooling/accessories.

For those with the Chinese 7x14 lathes - has support/parts availability ever been an issue?

I'm not opposed to a machine that might need a bit more TLC to get running - if it proves to be a more versatile  machine.  The problem is, my 'workshop' isn't very well established at the moment, so I may lack the tools to do a decent job of working out the bugs on a chinese machine.

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[Ian Paterson]

Hi Geoffrey,

For Chinese mini lathes, there's never been a problem with support or parts, but that support comes from the huge comminity of mini lathe and mini mill users or from books. ...I wouldn't count on any support from the manufacturers or vendors. Parts can come from eBay, Littlemachineshop.com, banggood.com or you can make them yourself. You can get mini lathe books online and from the library. For starters, you can try "Mini Lathe for Home Machinists" and "Mini Lathe Tools & Projects for Home Machinists", both by David Fenner. Some other good starter books are "The Amateur's Lathe" by L. H. Sparey and the entire series of Gingery books which will give you an idea of just how much can be accomplished with basic hand tools and some ingenuity.

Regarding the catch-22 problem of not having the tools to fix up your new tools, don't worry about it. I bought my X2 mill and mini lathe at the same time and was able to use them both, together with hand tools, to fix each of them up. Improving those Chinese mills and lathes seems to be an iterative process that never ends until you decide it's "good enough".

I'm happy to have a phone chat about this with you if you like. Just email your number to me. You can find my email address on my website in the contact section: http://www.ianpaterson.org/contact.htm

Ian

[Ian Paterson]

In a previous post, I said dirt-cheap mini lathes purchased from online vendors had a reputation for very bad quality and there are lots of online reviews to back that up. However, Xynudu recently released a video where he claims to have found an exception to that rule. If he's right, then this would be the cheapest mini lathe you can buy in Canada that's of acceptable quality: https://www.amazon.ca/SUMORE-Metal-Lathe-Machine-SP2102x300/dp/B0721JWTVN/ref=sr_1_5?dchild=1&keywords=mini+lathe&qid=1606211757&sr=8-5. Don't expect anything like Proxxon or Wabeco quality though.

Ian

[Geoff Robson]

Thanks for this Ian,

I had actually seen his earlier video where he had just received the lathe, so was looking forward to seeing this hands on review.  It definitely seems like a great little lathe for the money.  Stay tuned - I will certainly be looking into this lathe some more - and may very well be adding one of these to my shop.

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[David Wrate]

I started my machining journey with a 7x12 that was about the same price as the Sumore machine. If the one I had had been of that quality I would likely still have it. Mine had casting defects, misaligned holes for the change gear banjo and a raft of other problems. 

If I were in the market for a small lathe I’d be all over a Sumore. 

David

On Dec 18, 2020, at 10:31 AM, Geoff Robson <geoffrey...@gmail.com> wrote:



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