African Fractals Seminar

[Biko Agozino]

This may interest you:

Home

Home

Biko

[Oluwatoyin Adepoju]

beautiful.

but how true is this-

''Did you know that the computer engineering algorithms that power the Internet are based on complex African fractal designs common in structures built by African men, and cornrow hair designs pioneered by African women hundreds of years ago on the continent and in the diaspora?''

Is there conclusive evidence to this effect?

toyin

--
Listserv moderated by Toyin Falola, University of Texas at Austin
To post to this group, send an email to USAAfric...@googlegroups.com
To subscribe to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDial...@googlegroups.com
Current archives at http://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
Early archives at http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index.html
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "USA Africa Dialogue Series" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to usaafricadialo...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/usaafricadialogue/1462739474.2010445.1620323569206%40mail.yahoo.com.

[Oluwatoyin Adepoju]

This description below about the lecture  reminds me of Philip Emeagwali's descriptions of how he developed his computing designs.

 The highlighting in the text is mine.

Emeagwali   has been a remarkable computer scientist, though he claimed achievements he did not make and benefited from those false claims. Emeagwali, however, unlike the text below, credits both designs in nature and human made constructs as  inspiring his computational designs-

ABSTRACT:
This papyrus introduces the fractal element of inter-connectivity which is usually left out in theoretical discussions of fractal designs. The paper argues that it is the neglected element of inter-connectivity that is crucial in understanding fractal motifs in Africana Arts and Sciences by bringing together the infinite fractional dimensions of recursive, self-similar and scaled designs to make for a holistic interpretation. The papyrus briefly introduces the five principles of fractal designs in addition to the sixth principle being innovated here. The papyrus explores the theoretical debates about the originality of fractal designs compared to assumptions of the mimicry of nature as the source of the nonlinear logic of fractals in Africana Arts and Sciences. Then the papyrus offers an innovative explanation of why fractal designs are common among people of African descent. The papyrus concludes with examples in architecture, quilts, literature, games, bronze-casting, music, politics, STEM, and sculpture with exemplars from the global African presence. In conclusion, the papyrus calls for the study of African fractals in schools and in the community.

[Biko Agozino]

Toyin,

Science does not always rely on conclusive evidence. Rather the testing and retesting of hypotheses are the guides to original contributions to knowledge. Anyone who claims that Africans have made no contribution to civilization should keep testing that null hypothesis even after Cesaire found such claims to be absurd and proclaimed 'hurray to those who invented nothing' for they remain human and deserving of equal dignity, especially so when African inventions are enormous but are stolen or denigrated.

Biko

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/usaafricadialogue/CAGBtzfMJUsdDekk%2B%3DSAMLJsj09sVO_QjZ6Y05hSYGWKSBi89Hg%40mail.gmail.com.

[Oluwatoyin Adepoju]

Oga Biko,

Thanks.

I am worried by the way you are handling this issue.

The description of your talk on fractals is superb but that non-factual assertion that opens it does not help at all. 

Clearly, you have no evidence that-

' the computer engineering algorithms that power the Internet are based on complex African fractal designs common in structures built by African men, and cornrow hair designs pioneered by African women hundreds of years ago on the continent and in the diaspora''

For that assertion to be factual, there would have to be incontrovertible evidence that the creators of computer algorithms, at the inception of this technology,  adapted African fractal designs.

To the best of my knowledge, such evidence does not exist.

I dont expect even Ron Eglash, the pioneer and perhaps foremost authority on the subject of African fractals, their relationship to science and to fractal geometry in other cultures, would make such an assertion, as evident from his book African Fractals, his website, and other essays where he continues his publications on the subject.

The more realistic assertion may be framed thus-

''Did you know that the computer engineering algorithms that power the Internet are similar to  complex African fractal designs common in structures built by African men, and cornrow hair designs pioneered by African women hundreds of years ago on the continent and in the diaspora?''

From that realistic and possibly factual assertion one could then proceed to demonstrate these similarities and reflect on their implications.

Such reflections could include questions of how to cultivate skills in computing by studying such designs.

One could also reflect on the universal recurrence of similar cognitive forms across the world and the question of why different civilizations have developed these cognitive forms in different ways. 

One could ask why Africa did not develop advanced technology even though it developed its own versions of cognitive forms that underlie computing, such as the binary organization of knowledge, as in the Ifa system of knowledge, a point made clear since Olu Longe's ''Ifa Divination and Computer Science,'' and taken further in various studies after Longe's as a Google search for the subject will demonstrate.

In exploring that question, one would also need to note that other cultures also developed similar cognitive forms before the West, as Eglash demonstrates on fractal geometry on his website.

The correlations between binary organization in the Chinese I Ching divination system and computer science are even better known and have been more often written about than the Ifa/science conjunctions, a correlation between I Ching and mathematical systems that seems to have been made famous by German philosopher and mathematician  Gottfried Leibniz in the 17th century.

One  account, such as this fine article by Damien Walter on the ancient history of binary coding,  sees   the I Ching as the source of Leibnitz's binary code, while another, such as this one, quoting a letter from Leibnitz,  argues that he had already developed his system before discovering the Chinese example, which then reinforced his confidence in his invention, leading to the conclusion from this view that  ''By seeing binary representation in ancient texts, Leibniz was compelled to continue his own writing of binary systems. This, in turn, became the language of modern computing still being used today, thus linking a 5,000-year-old text to the formation of the digital age.'


On the impact of his work in  binary organization, the Wikipedia article on Leibnitz states,  ''He also refined the binary number system, which is the foundation of nearly all digital (electronic, solid-state, discrete logic) computers, including the Von Neumann architecture, which is the standard design paradigm, or "computer architecture", followed from the second half of the 20th century, and into the 21st.''

Peter J. Lu ( Wikipedia article rich with links to discussions of his work) and Paul J. Steinhardt became famous through demonstrating relationships between the Islamic architectural patterns known as Giri Tiles and the modern advanced fractal geometry represented by Penrose Tiling ( both very rich Wikipedia links) in their paper  "Decagonal and Quasi-Crystalline Tilings in Medieval Islamic Architecture'', which can be read at that link along with responses to the paper by other scientists while Sebastian Prange's ''The Tiles of Infinity,'' examines the subject for the general reader. 

The authors of Indra's Pearls: The Vision of Felix Klein  on the beautifully complex mathematical patterns  first ''glimpsed'' in modern times by Felix Klein  open their book by demonstrating relationships between these fractal patterns   and the famous Buddhist  image of the Net of Indra, thereby describing Klein as  rediscovering in mathematics  'an idea from Asian mythology', as the Amazon page of the book puts it.

These correlations give further urgency to the question of why the West took the lead with advanced technologies employing related ideas while African,  Asian and Islamic cultures had earlier developed the basics of these ideas. The Western ascendancy might be due to a unique convergence of cultural and economic factors. I expect that a significant degree of published work exists on the development of science in various cultures that can help such an enquiry.

You continue with another assertion that is more obfuscatory than factual- 

  ''Science does not always rely on conclusive evidence. Rather the testing and retesting of hypotheses are the guides to original contributions to knowledge.''  

 Conclusive evidence may be described as  the destination of the scientific journey.   The testing and retesting of hypotheses is a central method in the quest for such evidence. Where such conclusive evidence is found or developed, the reasons why it should be understood as conclusive are clearly spelt out for all to see and respond to. Where the evidence is not conclusive, the same applies.

Where what was seen as conclusive at a point in time is to be understood as no longer so, the reasons are also spelt out for all to see and respond to.

In this instance, not only is the question asked about computing algorithms being based on African designs not a question in science, but is a question in the history of science, but even then requires a statement of justification, the provision of evidence on which that justification is based, and the analysis of that evidence demonstrating why it should be understood in terms of the interpretation provided.

You have not provided such evidence talk less analyzing it to demonstrate  its validity for your claim.

You then  invoke a claim of denigration of African achievement in order to anchor your inability to provide evidence for a non-factual assertion you should not have made in the first place-

''Anyone who claims that Africans have made no contribution to civilization should keep testing that null hypothesis''

The issue is not about the general subject of African contributions to civilization but the specific claim that  ''the computer engineering algorithms that power the Internet are based on complex African fractal designs common in structures built by African men, and cornrow hair designs pioneered by African women hundreds of years ago on the continent and in the diaspora''  

Your trying to avoid verifying your claim by invoking anti-African bias does not suggest the critical culture that should define scholarship. 

You then reinforce those disturbing assertions by quoting well meaning but extremist and self defeating Negritudist rhetoric -

''Cesaire found such claims to be absurd and proclaimed 'hurray to those who invented nothing' for they remain human and deserving of equal dignity''

Africans certainly deserve equal dignity but  the notion that Africans invented nothing, in various aspects of civilization and perhaps even in science,  is a fiction and actually works against the dignity Cesaire wishes to claim flor Africans.

You conclude on another assertion that is made problematic by the problematic  assertions that preceded it, casting doubt on whatever validity it might have, a validity that I for one wonder what its range really is-

''African inventions are enormous but are stolen or denigrated''

Such assertions are at  times used as an umbrella for various unsustainable claims of African achievement.

It would be helpful to have some striking examples of these ''enormous'' achievements that have been stolen or, at this point in history, are still denigrated.

Why are these issues important?

They are important because the limitations of logic evident in your assertion and defense of that assertion help to fuel anti-African bias where science is concerned. 

You are a scholar of international repute publicly making such assertions that may  motivate some Africans or Black people to feel good but which can readily be shown to be non-factual. If you, with your level of education and professional achievement, can fall into that trap, what message could that send about others in your racial demographic who are not so developed or accomplished?

thanks

toyin

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/usaafricadialogue/2054451360.2499911.1620432750611%40mail.yahoo.com.

[Biko Agozino]

Toyin,

What is the subtitle of the book by Eglash? See also Abdul Bangura, African Mathematics. And see chapter 16 of Civilization or Barbarism by Diop. Why do you believe that Africans made no contributions to modern computer engineering? Do you have any evidence of the null hypothesis?

In intellectual property law, what you saw as similarities would be enough evidence for the finding of copyrights infringement. Epistemic piracy is a real thing and it is on-going.

Biko

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/usaafricadialogue/CAGBtzfPxEsyJzwH8Ef0Fp1Z2a2XEPtgWKHR1J-sDn5WpCLB6Qw%40mail.gmail.com.

[Dr BioDun J Ogundayo]

Biko, tell Toyin to read, other than Eglash.

1. Ethnomathematics

2. Book by Zaleski on Math and Africa; Me forget the title of the book. Maybe it’s Africa Counts.

3. Ifa practice is based on binary or quartenary mathematics, both of which are the basis of computer science.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/usaafricadialogue/318975897.2966134.1620491472707%40mail.yahoo.com.

--

BioDun J. Ogundayo , PhD. Arokesagun

[biko...@yahoo.com]

Bros, Toyin is in agreement with us but like the doubting Thomas, he wants us to show him evidence of the crime before he will agree. Note that he is citing only white authors who would never cite Africans even if their lives depend on it. The theft of knowledge has been well documented but it is not all in the past.

Biko

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/usaafricadialogue/CACkhLWanV4xS17P2r8Kdi%3D3ff%3Do6O0CgO1AiY_S552zLqG9yGQ%40mail.gmail.com.

[Oluwatoyin Adepoju]

Oga Biko,

 

You are still avoiding the question.

 

The question is

 

''Is there evidence that computer algorithms are based on African fractals?''

 

If you believe the evidence exists, present it and tell us where to go to verify your claim.

 

You and I know that's how it's done in scholarship, not trying to divert attention from the question by invoking other issues such as claiming someone is saying Africans did not contribute to modern computing, nor demanding that one go and read Diop who does not discuss computing.

  

Eglash' African Fractals: Modern Computing and Indigenous Design does not suggest your claim by it's title or subtitle.

 

He argues for correspondences, not claims of influence, direct or even indirect, between African fractals and modern computing.

Diop has nothing to say about computing in his chapter 16, on Africa's contribution to the sciences, as evident from his book as available from that link.

Would you want to reference anywhere in African Mathematics where Bangura makes the same claim you are making, and if he does, why you think the claim is valid? From what I have read in the book, I would be surprised by Bangura making such a claim. He seems too careful for that. 

 

 It's also not true that similarities between older and newer ideas and applications necessarily  qualify as copyright infringement in intellectual property law.

 

To make such a case, you have to have grounds for arguing that the later developer of the idea had access to the earlier idea before developing their own and that this earlier idea is sufficiently distinctive and non-generic to be classified as intellectual property.

 

First, I doubt if  there is any evidence that the West knew about African fractals before the advent of modern computing.

 

What they knew about was binary systematisation of knowledge from the Chinese I Ching and Leibnitz is described as stating he had developed the idea before encountering the I Ching.

 

Even then, binary organisation and perhaps even fractal order may be better understood as generic organisation systems fundamental to human thought on account of the role of duality in structuring biological and cognitive reality, male/ female, young/old, good/ bad, right/left, day/night, cold/wet etc, a system the foundations of which are evident in I Ching, Yoruba Ifa, Yoruba Ogboni, Jewish Kabbala, all these being philosophical/spiritual systems whose cosmologies use similar binary typologies, relating the
male/female, left side/right side dynamic to foundational frameworks for understanding cosmic order and dynamism.

 

Some of the richest fractal geometries- one aspect of which is repetition of forms on increasingly smaller scales such that the smaller may be integrated within the larger- are Hindu yantra geometries, of unknown age, demonstrating through geometric order a similar strategy of repetition in scales of descent from a superordinate form, as also evident in Ifa, such that the first unit of Ifa Odu, the organisational system of Ifa, known as Eji Ogbe, provides the structure from which the entire structure of 256 odu is derived so that the entire 256 may be seen as encapsulated in Eji Ogbe.

 

So, fractal design and binary organisation, as used in information organisation,, evident in I Ching and Kabbalah, employed in terms correlative with fractal order in such systems as Ifa, may be understood as a globally widespread phenomenon, emerging at very old periods and at different times and places.

We need to be careful about our manner of trying to place Africa on the table of scientific achievement.

The computer scientist who makes explicit conjunctions between his work and both patterns in nature and African abstract arts such as patterns on mats, if I recall his examples correctly, is Philip Emeagwali, a person who needs to be properly contextualized as both genius in computing, adept in selling claims of achievements he did not make and beautiful at describing his methods of developing his computing designs.

He does these in his iconic interview with the Nigerian Guardian journalist Reuben Abati, an article rich in celebration of both factual and fictional scientific achievements superbly and unforgettably described and later illustrated with superb full color illustrations   in the publication of the interview on his website, strategies of fact and fiction that must have inspired many people including African computer scientists, and people like me in the humanities who, when I read that interview  on its first publication,  cut out the pages of the interview from the paper and folded them into my wallet  so it could follow me everywhere, or some similar venerational strategy.

 

Having unmasked Emeagwali's  fictions, we need to recognise his genuine achievements, one of which is his description of his deriving inspiration from visualization and the arts of the low technology environment he grew up in as a  means  of developing computing systems, ideas that suggest similar possibilities for people outside high tech environments and pointing to the field of Natural Computing, developing computational ideas from nature perhaps before that field was developed or when it was still emergent and the possibility of  developing computing skills by studying fractals in indigenous arts. A book needs to be written on Philip Emeagwali in his various facets and their unity. 

 

thanks

toyin 

 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/usaafricadialogue/318975897.2966134.1620491472707%40mail.yahoo.com.

[biko...@yahoo.com]

Thanks Toyin for raising these important questions. You should attend the seminar and raise them for the Mathematics students to answer if I can't.

There is no need to seek to dispute a seminar that you have not yet heard. It is not scholarly to think that you know everything, that is fatalistic. Come to the seminar with an open mind and you could learn something new and you could also teach other participants what you know during the discussion.

Your question about why Africa is lagging in computer science is the easiest to answer. Research and development funding in this area was led by governments and not by individuals. Your guess is as good as mine why African governments dropped the ball.

Biko

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/usaafricadialogue/CAGBtzfOWGUYOhSb69WmagYCZbBbe3eCF9JMQ8ch%3DR-6ovTXsZQ%40mail.gmail.com.

[Oluwatoyin Adepoju]

Which argument are you supporting, Ogundayo?

The validated claims of  Ethnomathematics  are well known, as evident from that Wikipedia link and the numerous Google hits and books and articles on the subject.

They dont include the claim that computer algorithms are based on African fractals.

Claudia Zalavky's Africa Counts: Number and Pattern in African Culture does not support that claim.

Would you want to reference where you hold such a claim was made in that book and in which edition of the book so we can check it out?

The point about binary maths is not in doubt-

''Ifa practice is based on binary or quaternary mathematics, both of which are the basis of computer science.''

The question here is did computer science gain the idea from Ifa?

Such a claim is along the lines Biko is making, a claim for which he is yet to provide evidence and for which I am stating no such evidence exists.

People such as the authors of ''A Comparative Study of Ifa Divination and Computer Science'' make that claim but don't even try to substantiate  it and devote their paper to focusing on similarities between both systems. The authors of ''Adoption of Ifá as a Computer-Based Information System,'' on the other hand, do not make such claims but focus on developing Ifa using its similarities with computing.
 

Such approaches, rather than making unsubstantiatable claims,  are more realistic.

thanks

toyin

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/usaafricadialogue/CACkhLWanV4xS17P2r8Kdi%3D3ff%3Do6O0CgO1AiY_S552zLqG9yGQ%40mail.gmail.com.

[Oluwatoyin Adepoju]

Oga Biko,

Thanks.

You opened your seminar description with an assertion that cannot be substantiated.

If you can't substantiate  it now is it then that you will substantiate it? 

Anybody with a knowledge of computing history knows the assertion is not true. 

I have acknowledged that the rest of the seminar description is impressive but that non-factual assertion with which it opens is not helpful.

Thanks

toyin

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/usaafricadialogue/591a6007-5522-4d0c-918f-cd4f1b29e8e3%40email.android.com.

[Biko Agozino]

Toyin,

You are completely mistaken about the authorship of the quotation that you are disputing. The scholarly thing to do is to attend the seminar and the organizers will explain to you why they made the claim that you are attributing to me. My abstract is very clear and specific but I do not doubt the claim of the organizers. 

Come to the seminar and you may be better educated about African contributions to computer science. You may also have something to teach the organizers. It is the banking concept of education that expects the teacher to have all the answers and the students to be blank slates, according to Freire. The students who organized the seminar have posed a problem that you find perplexing but I think that it is a valid claim. Come to the seminar and get some knowledge if you want or come and share your expert knowledge. 

I am sure that the audience will benefit from hearing your take  too. They may even invite you to a future seminar to provide the counter-thesis to my thesis for a future synthesis. That is how knowledge grows for those with a growth mind-set. Those who claim to know it all do not grow in knowledge. Done know don't know.

Biko

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/usaafricadialogue/CAGBtzfO_bGu1U%3D3VbptNk-jL3q6NRb5ehD8HXw8Xy0Sdx%3DdiSg%40mail.gmail.com.

[Dr BioDun J Ogundayo]

Computer Science is simply the putting together of data (any kind or form) to make sense of the data for specific and targeted ends and purposes. The term can thus broadly apply to all discursive, analytical, explanatory, exegetical, polemical, rational, logocentric, logic-related exercises to solve specific problems… Inasmuch as all these activities/fields, etc. follow the information-knowledge-wisdom triad in bringing solutions to problems. 

From a terminological/semiotic perspective, even practitioners are moving from the term “computer science” to delineate the field because they realize it is too narrow to circumscribe

1. Digital humanities

2. Biostatistics

3. Digital musicology

4. Biotechnology

5. Computational Linguistics

6. Robotics

7. Linguistics

8. Applied Linguistics

9. Translation

10. Machine Translation

11. Computer-Aided Drawing & Design CADD

12. Digital Graphics

13. Computer-Assisted Language Learning CALL

14. Computer-Assisted language teaching CALT

15. Artificial Intelligence AI

16. Digital Media DM

Take your pick.

 Colleges in the US are frequently now using, for marketing and recruitment, more fluid terms such as CIST-Computer/Computing

Information Systems & Technologies/Technology. Behind these delineation efforts is the recognition of the organic —broad—nature of the field to be narrowly defined as Computer Science—just like Philosophy as evolved terminologically, and deonthologically, to encompass seemingly unrelated fields as diverse as logic, ethics, law, politics, psychology,

sociology, etc.

ERGO : 

Nothing wrong in Biko’s or anybody else’s decolonial stance about the denial of Africa’s contibution to the narrowly defined field of Computer Science that purists insist on proof of Africa’s contribution to the field.

After all, Africans created pyramids from Nubia to Egypt, yet most people still think that the technology and the science behind these monuments must have come from WITHOUT Africa!!1

Besides, anybody remember how much vitriol and verbiage attended Bernal’s efforts to re-center Africa at the heart of modern western civilization?

Anyhow, just my perspective, and not an effort to prove or disprove anybody’s point of view.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/usaafricadialogue/105069101.3016163.1620511955789%40mail.yahoo.com.

[Oluwatoyin Adepoju]

Oga Biko,

Thanks.

Is it not more realistic to have stated from the onset what is now emerging as the facts of the case that, ''I can't substantiate the claim that opens the description of my talk but I identify with it. I expect more light may be shed on this idea at the seminar''?

You have a beautiful seminar description but have marred it seriously or allowed it to be seriously marred by students, whom according to you, wrote the opening sentence for you and more or less added it to the more professional statement of the goals of the seminar composed by yourself, as your last post may be taken as suggesting.

These are very, very serious issues that go beyond anyone's ego or personal reputation, significant as that is in relation to the kinds of knowledge claims one is associated with.

One of the challenges to the struggle to decolonize the globally dominant Western academy is that too often the decolonizing process is marked by uncritical or inadequately critical multicultural thinking.

If we are to make claims about contributions of Africans at any point in time to any discipline, more so in the particularly sensitive fields of science and technology, we must inform ourselves adequately about the relevant discipline so as to hone our sensitivities to the issues at stake.

30 mins to one hour on Google is enough to disprove that claim that computer algorithms are based on African fractals.

Its also enough to learn that that claim cannot be true because the conditions for it to be true do not exist in the first place and no amount of argument will bring them into existence.

The closest relationship between African fractals and computation may be seen as binary logic, which was developed or decisively developed  by Leibnitz as part of Western mathematics in the 17th century, by which time the West had no access to African fractals.

Leibniz knew about Chinese I Ching binaries because they had been communicated to him through the long written textual tradition of I Ching while such African examples as Ifa and its affiliates, such as the Dahomean Fa, the Igbo Afa and the Edo/Benin Oguega were first rendered in writing in the 20th century.

Or can the argument be invoked that another African example of fractals influenced computing by the time of the 20th century entry of these African knowledge systems  to the West? Is there any development in the history of computing whose history is not readily verifiable leading to claims of being able to uncover some new facts  hidden by biased scholars?

The study of African fractals is a heavily developed field as a simple Google search will show. Its contours and verified claims are clear. Its vital we understand this configuration.

Thanks

toyin

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/usaafricadialogue/105069101.3016163.1620511955789%40mail.yahoo.com.

[Oluwatoyin Adepoju]

Got you better now, Biko.

The statement that computer algorithms are based on African fractals is the heading of the talk but is different from the description of the talk, which I expect comes from you.  

thanks

toyin

[Oluwatoyin Adepoju]

Oga Ogundayo,

You state-

''Computer Science is simply the putting together of data (any kind or form) to make sense of the data for specific and targeted ends and purposes'.''

So, our debate here, as we marshal ideas and facts to prove our claims  is an example of computer science?

A library card catalogue is a form of computer science?

A novel, poem or play, organizing data for its artistic goals, is an example of computer science?

We need to be very careful as people trying to foreground the value of African knowledge systems and particularly as Africans pursuing that goal so we dont substantiate the biased views that African thought, in general, and Africans as a people, are not at home within the citadel of critical and discriminating thought in which the Western academy and its relationship to efficient social organization prides itself. 

What you are trying to do may be described as making a correlation between knowledge development, organization, storage and application as fundamentals of human existence and  computer science as a subset of this human cognitive activity. 

Within that context, information systems are the umbrella term covering non-scientific, non-technological  forms of knowledge management as well as their scientific and technological counterparts.

The non-scientific and non-technological forms of  information systems include library card catalogues.

A computerized library catalogue is an example of the application of science and its technological expression to library information systems.

Such a computerized information management system is an example of information technology of which computer science involves the use of computers in information management. 

The Wikipedia articles on these subjects are very helpful.

The terms ''Computing'' and ''science'' are significantly precise terms in modern knowledge and cant be applied outside their conventional semantic fields except metaphorically if they are to be meaningful.

The list of technological applications you gave are scientific  applications in terms of technology. They are not identical with their non-scientific and non-technological counterparts, thus ''computational linguistics'' is not identical with Chomskyan or Saussurean linguistics, as they were originally developed as   approaches to linguistics developed using the qualitative  tools of humanities scholarship, digital graphics are not identical with drawing using pencils and paper etc etc just as Ifa number permutations are not identical with computing processes but may be seen as sharing some similarities with them.

How true is this?-

''Philosophy as evolved terminologically, and deonthologically, to encompass seemingly unrelated fields as diverse as logic, ethics, law, politics, psychology,''

 Are philosophies, as demonstrations of fundamental human activities  emerging from the development of thought, not more accurately described as emerging from within the unity of fundamental questions of existence encapsulating the totality of its eventual disciplinary  subdivisions?

Thus, one may correctly state that ancient Greek philosophy, for example, operated in terms of relationships between metaphysics and epistemology and between these and ethics and between these and political philosophy but that over the centuries this original unity was fragmented  into disciplinary bodies representing distinctive  philosophical sub-disciplines.

Is the more accurate correlation not with  computer science, as an umbrella discipline, having branches such as Natural Computing  as well as applications which are not identical with the parent discipline because they are means of applying the parent discipline to other disciplines?

Is every affirmation of African achievement necessarily valid as a decolonising effort? Should every such claim not be examined for its critical quality so it does not contribute to delegitimize  Africans as critical thinkers and their knowledge systems as demonstrating  inherent value in their own right? Is part of such examination not the demand for such claims to be substantiated?

Is the issue not  far from Bernal's controversial and complex book covering significant scope of disputed  ground and instead, is one that can be addressed by a few basic points of knowledge accessible from a  Google investigation?

thanks

toyin

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/usaafricadialogue/CACkhLWZSy_2YfgHZLVj3rE41fHDgfKEQFTu3FZCOKFxw_VW26g%40mail.gmail.com.

[biko...@yahoo.com]

You are very presumptuous about what cannot be substantiated. You should always avoid being contemptuous about the knowledge that students and professors bring to class. I actually support the claim that the students made and if you are baffled, prepare to be dazzled during the seminar. Obviously, I find the expectations of the students to challenging but rest assured that I am up to the task.

You have honestly admitted that you are ignorant about the claim, do not arrogantly assume that what you do not know does not exist. You may know some things but you do not know everything. No one is omniscient except the All Mighty who is All Merciful.

The seminar is yet to be written and cannot be marred by the bold statement of expectations by the organizers. It is to the credit of the students that the truth they courageously stated is giving you nightmares even before the presentation. That is a normal experience in critical thinking. It is expected to disrupt what you took for granted. 

Meanwhile be patient and wait for enlightenment but feel free to disagree after I have made the case for some original credit to be given to Africa in computing. I look forward to debating with you at the seminar and afterwards. 

Of course, you have every right to choose to retain the comfort of your ignorance and refuse to be educated but you must hold your suspense until the seminar has been presented before you start challenging it. See you there.

Biko

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/usaafricadialogue/CAGBtzfN7%2BrCDO7UYbD92GcWWDQvf3Mhj5rNTYXiS5MXabfpj-Q%40mail.gmail.com.

[Dr BioDun J Ogundayo]

**NB my responses are embedded within the body of your statements. I CAPITALIZE MOST NOT OUT DISRESPECT FOR NETTIQUETTE, BUT SIMPLY TO HIGHLIGHT THEM AGAINST YOUR STATEMENTS. no offense meant thus.

On Sun, May 9, 2021 at 07:24 Oluwatoyin Adepoju <ovde...@gmail.com> wrote:

Oga Ogundayo,

You state-

''Computer Science is simply the putting together of data (any kind or form) to make sense of the data for specific and targeted ends and purposes'.''

So, our debate here, as we marshal ideas and facts to prove our claims  is an example of computer science? YES, SIMPLY PUT. We ARE PROBLEM SOLVING using the information-knowledge-wisdom triad.

A library card catalogue is a form of computer science?YES, SIMPLY PUT, just like the PIN NUMBER AND PASSWORD.

A novel, poem or play, organizing data for its artistic goals, is an example of computer science? YES, SIMPLY PUT as in coding, robotics, cosplay and manga videography

We need to be very careful as people trying to foreground the value of African knowledge systems and particularly as Africans pursuing that goal so we dont substantiate the biased views that African thought, in general, and Africans as a people, are not at home within the citadel of critical and discriminating thought in which the Western academy and its relationship to efficient social organization prides itself. SCREW THE WESTERN ACADEMY. TODAY IS MOTHERS DAY,  ON WHICH DAY MY BELOVED MOM PASSED YEARS AGO.  SO, IN HER HONOR,  I USE THE MORE ANODINE/ANODYNE WORD ‘SCREW’ RATHER THAN THE MORE PUNGENT AND POIGNANT verb… but

GLAD YOU TOOK MY BAIT

What you are trying to do may be described as making a correlation between knowledge development, organization, storage and application as fundamentals of human existence and  computer science as a subset of this human cognitive activity. YES, SIMPLY PUT

Within that context, information systems are the umbrella term covering non-scientific, non-technological  forms of knowledge management as well as their scientific and technological counterparts. SO, YORUBA DUNDUN DRUMMING AND INTERPRETATION THEREOF ARE NOT WIRELESS COMMUNICATION ABI? Because You, my brother regard these as ‘non-scientific, non-technological forms of knowledge”. The terms 

‘science and knowledge” are synonymous etymologically speaking, sir.

The non-scientific and non-technological forms of  information systems include library card catalogues. YES, SIMPLY PUT

A computerized library catalogue is an example of the application of science and its technological expression to library information systems.

Such a computerized information management system is an example of information technology of which computer science involves the use of computers in information management. DUH…

The Wikipedia articles on these subjects are very helpful.

The terms ''Computing'' and ''science'' are significantly precise terms in modern knowledge and cant be applied outside their conventional semantic fields except metaphorically if they are to be meaningful.

The list of technological applications you gave are scientific  applications in terms of technology. They are not identical with their non-scientific and non-technological counterparts, thus ''computational linguistics'' is not identical with Chomskyan or Saussurean linguistics, as they were originally developed as   approaches to linguistics developed using the qualitative  tools of humanities scholarship, digital graphics are not identical with drawing using pencils and paper etc etc just as Ifa number permutations are not identical with computing processes but may be seen as sharing some similarities with them.

How true is this?-

''Philosophy *HAS* evolved terminologically, and deonthologically, to encompass seemingly unrelated fields as diverse as logic, ethics, law, politics, psychology,'' see my HAS.

 Are philosophies, as demonstrations of fundamental human activities  emerging from the development of thought, not more accurately described as emerging from within the unity of fundamental questions of existence encapsulating the totality of its eventual disciplinary  subdivisions?

Thus, one may correctly state that ancient Greek philosophy, for example, operated in terms of relationships between metaphysics and epistemology and between these and ethics and between these and political philosophy but that over the centuries this original unity was fragmented  into disciplinary bodies representing distinctive  philosophical sub-disciplines.

Is the more accurate correlation not with  computer science, as an umbrella discipline, having branches such as Natural Computing  as well as applications which are not identical with the parent discipline because they are means of applying the parent discipline to other disciplines?

Is every affirmation of African achievement necessarily valid as a decolonising effort? Should every such claim not be examined for its critical quality so it does not contribute to delegitimize  Africans as critical thinkers and their knowledge systems as demonstrating  inherent value in their own right? Is part of such examination not the demand for such claims to be substantiated?

HAVE IT YOUR WAY, SIR. JUST REMEMBER THAT NO BODY OF KNOWLEDGE IS IDEOLOGICALLY NEUTRAL. I ACCEPT AS A FIRST PRINCIPLE, AND AS AN ARTICLE OF FAITH THAT 

“every affirmation of African achievement IS NECESSARILY VALID AS A DECOLONISING EFFORT. NO apologies, and I am an apologist for African achievements, given the prism and trauma of history. Signed: ‘BioDun J. Ogundayo, May 9, 2021, Sunday.

Is the issue not far from Bernal's controversial and complex book covering significant scope of disputed  ground and instead, is one that can be addressed by a few basic points of knowledge accessible from a Google investigation? GOOGLE IS NOT THE FINAL ARBITER/AUTHORITY INASMUCH AS GOOGLE IS NEITHER OMNISCIENT, NOR OMNIPOTENT, JUST BECAUSE GOOGLE WAREHOUSES GRAPHICALLY CURATED DATA.

Again, SCREW GOOGLE, WIKIPEDIA and all who claim to be the Delphic oracle of all knowledge.

HAPPY MOTHERS DAY.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/usaafricadialogue/CAGBtzfMwMEf%3DCJKnio3m5YKBWEaLsvK6p0J6jhpzTZ0Y-NU70w%40mail.gmail.com.

[Oluwatoyin Adepoju]

Thank God!

I was feeling guilty that I had unfairly accused you of something you might not fully identify with but which the seminar organisers might have roped you into.

I hope you will keep in mind that this shifting goal post you keep insisting on is not the question at issue here-

'' after I have made the case for some original credit to be given to Africa in computing. ''

The question is-

is it true that ''the computer engineering algorithms that power the Internet are based on complex African fractal designs common in structures built by African men, and cornrow hair designs pioneered by African women hundreds of years ago on the continent and in the diaspora?''

I shall be insisting on that question as I see you have struggled to avoid addressing it. 

I'm puzzled as to how you will substantiate such a grand claim in less than a month, an achievement  that would represent a fundamental rewriting of the history of computing.

Or shall we find ourselves battling with more rhetoric in place of evidence, suppositions instead of facts?

We have both examined the claim.

We have analysed its conditions of possibility.

These conditions dont exist.

So, the claim cannot be true.

Will you unearth new conditions of possibility as you write?

Various grand claims like the one you are championing are a staple of feel good uncritical Afrocentrism, particularly in relation to science.

You have been invited to justify the claim but you have not done so.

Your impressive seminar description is well within the scope of deliverable knowledge, is readily  relatable to the parameters of possibility of the field but the heading of the seminar announcement  is not and, to the best of my understanding of the field, it cant be so related except by conjecture.

I salute you.

toyin

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/usaafricadialogue/6f0f086a-b978-4c9c-8fa2-89be0c4ef18e%40email.android.com.

[Oluwatoyin Adepoju]

Abdul Karim Bangura's magnifient review of Eglash's African Fractals for any who may be interested

[Oluwatoyin Adepoju]

I salute you brother.

May the Creator be with your dear mum and her loved ones

I find the retooling of style you have brought into the discussion refreshing.

I'll be back.

Toyin 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/usaafricadialogue/CACkhLWa6hYrnjL9Mhhp7VLtnxOux1bWHE62FSjjZ6V6%2BBWVFUw%40mail.gmail.com.

[Emeagwali, Gloria (History)]

https://www.amazon.com/African-Fractals-Modern-Computing-Indigenous/dp/0813526140/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=ron+eglash+african+fractals&qid=1620587284&sr=8-1

Ron Eglash(1999). AfricanFractals: Modern 

Computing and Indigenous Design.

This is a pioneering work that focused 

on this issue.

Professor Gloria Emeagwali
Prof. of History/African Studies, CCSU
africahistory.net; vimeo.com/ gloriaemeagwali
Recipient of the 2014 Distinguished Research
Excellence Award, Univ. of Texas at Austin;
2019 Distinguished Africanist Award
New York African Studies Association

---

From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com <usaafric...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Oluwatoyin Adepoju <ovde...@gmail.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 9, 2021 12:21 PM
To: usaafricadialogue <USAAfric...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - African Fractals Seminar

 

Please be cautious: **External Email**

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/usaafricadialogue/CAGBtzfM9vzcBx2%2Be47RgnD7ddWwCWBstyxab4ZHuAyaiXiVKOQ%40mail.gmail.com.

[Biko Agozino]

Sista Glo has some relevant publications on the subject:

https://hssonline.org/resources/teaching/teaching_nonwestern/teaching_nonwestern_africa/

Biko

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/usaafricadialogue/BL0PR01MB45144BA84F3CA02F94EEBB08DE559%40BL0PR01MB4514.prod.exchangelabs.com.

[OLAYINKA AGBETUYI]

The fact that modern computer algoriths mimicked binary systems from Ifa, Kabbalah and I Ching, is sufficient to come to the conclusion of intellectual property theft by the West.

Every respectable opinion ( western / non- western) that I know have come to that conclusion ages ago. The process by which it is done is what is described as ' reification'   ( or concealment of origins) by neo- Marxists.  That was the goal and in part reward for world wide colonisation.  

Every informed opinion that I know have for long come to the conclusion for instance that whatever is great in British technology was either copied and further developed from the Chinese or the Arabs either in Mathematics, gun or firearms technology.  What is often glossed over is the contribution of African technologies to these technologies before they were taken over by the West.  Historians know these and I have taught these for several years.  

The West themselves know that they are the Johnny lately comes in this regard.  Why offer apologias for them!

OAA

Sent from my Galaxy

[Oluwatoyin Adepoju]

Na wa.

Strange perspectives on the history of science based on strange forms of logic.

Liebniz and Newton, two Europeans living in Europe in the same period,  independently developed calculus and since there is no evidence to substantiate the idea of one influencing the other, no one is making that claim.

Binary structure is a feature of cosmologies around the world, including Jewish Kabbala which had it's origins in the Jewish presence in Europe, to the best of my knowledge.

The use of binary structure in organising divination systems runs from the Chinese I Ching to the African Afa, Ifa, Fa, Oguega family and perhaps other African systems, using the paired double lines of the Ifa/Afa family or other forms of symbolism.

Yet, in the face of this global presence of binary order, of experience of independent development of such a mathematical breakthrough as calculus by two men in the same period on the same continent, it is being argued, without any evidence, that Western binary mathematics, developed by the same Leibnitz and foundational to modern computers, mimics non-Western symbolism.

It is also claimed that all substantial development in firearms by the British had it's roots in concealed adaptations from others, even though the history of practically all and perhaps all developments of military technology, from the Chinese invention of the rocket to the German development in WWII to the US employment of German scientists in the development of the US rocket and space program to the history of guns from the earliest periods to the machine gun, the pistol, the AK47 and other developments are well known, as well as the international history of mathematics, across Africa, to Asia to the Middle East and Europe representing a map of mutual influences along with achievement but limited or no international influence, are well known, represented by studies after studies readily accessed by a simple online investigation, we are being told stories based on the say so of unnamed and unsubstantiated opinion.

Haba!

The earliest developments of mathematics and science were in Africa, Asia and the Arab world, from the African Ishango bone among other developments to the Indian development of the zero to the development of algebra by Al Kwazimi-inexact spelling- in the Arab world to Ibn Sinna's achievements in medicine which made his medical book standard in Europe for centuries and in modern times, the achievement of Ramanujan, the largely self taught Indian genius who ascribed his mathematical insights to his family Hindu goddess, achievements made famous by his association with the older mathematician Hardy at Cambridge, yet a subject that has been thoroughly chewed over in centuries of research and mountains of  publications, strategic aspects of which can be easily ascertained by online investigation without difficulty, are being presented as if they represent some arcane information to be uncovered by conspiracy revealers.

Haba!

The Asians do not make such arguments.

They work hard to create a place for themselves in the world of modern science.

We know the outcomes of their efforts.

That's the way to go.

That's the approach of such an Africanist historian of knowledge and scientist as Abdul Karim Bangura.

Root science education in the environmental and cultural landscapes of learners, expand the range of cultural contexts in terms of which science is taught, this school seems to argue.

 Ifa's use of binary order in creating fractal structures may serve as an inspiring template, leading to demonstrating how these structures may be visualised through computer systems organisation and fractal symmetries and perhaps lead to new cognitive developments, as some scholars have done.

Akan and Gyaman Adinkra's  use of various forms of symmetry, such as the bilateral symmetry of Kuntunkantan or the rotational symmetry of Binkabi, may be employed in investigating these concepts, as various scholarly papers have demonstrated.

Adinkra symbols visual and epistemic similarity to the some of the earliest forms of the  Adinkras of the Adinkrammatics mathematical physical systems by Sylvester James Gates and Michael Faux, who named their new system after the older Akan/Gyaman symbolism, though they claim no influence of the older system on their work, may be employed in demonstrating how such older systems may catalyze newer developments that could impact the scientific world as Gates and Faux' achievement has done, even if later investigators explicitly seek inspiration from the older system, as different from the accidental structural similarities claimed by Faux and Gates.

One of the richest forms of fractal geometry is the Hindu Sri Yantra, mathematical values demonstrated in various critically rigorous research publications.

All these are frameworks that may be used in developing approaches to mathematics and science, frameworks of multidisciplinary power because these systems use mathematics and often, it's aesthetics, it's beauty,  as symbolizations of philosophies and cosmologies of vast scope at times  embracing great literature, keys to developing breadth of thought if used as tools of knowledge not as dogmatic frameworks.

Yet, a lot of the literature on these subjects  is published in Western languages by Western publishers and those in India, a publishing powerhouse, from what I can see, are often published in English. 

The West is best approached in terms of countering it's inadequacies and using it's accomplishments.

Thanks

Toyin

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/usaafricadialogue/DB6PR04MB2982A91BC0F4091C7ABA31D3A6549%40DB6PR04MB2982.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com.

[OLAYINKA AGBETUYI]

The idea that information systems are non scientific while computerisation systems are scientific is problematic.

A computerised system is in fact a subset of information systems.

As a licentiate of the Institute of Chartered Secretaries, I took courses in Office Administration and Information Systems. Introduction to computer systems was part of the courses

At the time the Word for Windows was invented in the early 90s I converted a whole centres manual filing system to computerised systems.  The processes involved cannot be compartmentalised into scientific versus non- scientific.

OAA

Sent from my Galaxy

-------- Original message --------

From: Oluwatoyin Adepoju <ovde...@gmail.com>

Date: 09/05/2021 12:37 (GMT+00:00)

To: usaafricadialogue <USAAfric...@googlegroups.com>

Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - African Fractals Seminar

This message is eligible for Automatic Cleanup! (ovde...@gmail.com) Add cleanup rule | More info

Oga Ogundayo,

You state-

''Computer Science is simply the putting together of data (any kind or form) to make sense of the data for specific and targeted ends and purposes'.''

So, our debate here, as we marshal ideas and facts to prove our claims  is an example of computer science?

A library card catalogue is a form of computer science?

A novel, poem or play, organizing data for its artistic goals, is an example of computer science?

We need to be very careful as people trying to foreground the value of African knowledge systems and particularly as Africans pursuing that goal so we dont substantiate the biased views that African thought, in general, and Africans as a people, are not at home within the citadel of critical and discriminating thought in which the Western academy and its relationship to efficient social organization prides itself. 

What you are trying to do may be described as making a correlation between knowledge development, organization, storage and application as fundamentals of human existence and  computer science as a subset of this human cognitive activity. 

Within that context, information systems are the umbrella term covering non-scientific, non-technological  forms of knowledge management as well as their scientific and technological counterparts.

The non-scientific and non-technological forms of  information systems include library card catalogues.

A computerized library catalogue is an example of the application of science and its technological expression to library information systems.

Such a computerized information management system is an example of information technology of which computer science involves the use of computers in information management. 

The Wikipedia articles on these subjects are very helpful.

The terms ''Computing'' and ''science'' are significantly precise terms in modern knowledge and cant be applied outside their conventional semantic fields except metaphorically if they are to be meaningful.

The list of technological applications you gave are scientific  applications in terms of technology. They are not identical with their non-scientific and non-technological counterparts, thus ''computational linguistics'' is not identical with Chomskyan or Saussurean linguistics, as they were originally developed as   approaches to linguistics developed using the qualitative  tools of humanities scholarship, digital graphics are not identical with drawing using pencils and paper etc etc just as Ifa number permutations are not identical with computing processes but may be seen as sharing some similarities with them.

How true is this?-

''Philosophy as evolved terminologically, and deonthologically, to encompass seemingly unrelated fields as diverse as logic, ethics, law, politics, psychology,''

 Are philosophies, as demonstrations of fundamental human activities  emerging from the development of thought, not more accurately described as emerging from within the unity of fundamental questions of existence encapsulating the totality of its eventual disciplinary  subdivisions?

Thus, one may correctly state that ancient Greek philosophy, for example, operated in terms of relationships between metaphysics and epistemology and between these and ethics and between these and political philosophy but that over the centuries this original unity was fragmented  into disciplinary bodies representing distinctive  philosophical sub-disciplines.

Is the more accurate correlation not with  computer science, as an umbrella discipline, having branches such as Natural Computing  as well as applications which are not identical with the parent discipline because they are means of applying the parent discipline to other disciplines?

Is every affirmation of African achievement necessarily valid as a decolonising effort? Should every such claim not be examined for its critical quality so it does not contribute to delegitimize  Africans as critical thinkers and their knowledge systems as demonstrating  inherent value in their own right? Is part of such examination not the demand for such claims to be substantiated?

Is the issue not  far from Bernal's controversial and complex book covering significant scope of disputed  ground and instead, is one that can be addressed by a few basic points of knowledge accessible from a  Google investigation?

thanks

toyin

On Sun, 9 May 2021 at 02:42, Dr BioDun J Ogundayo <akand...@gmail.com> wrote:

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/usaafricadialogue/CACkhLWZSy_2YfgHZLVj3rE41fHDgfKEQFTu3FZCOKFxw_VW26g%40mail.gmail.com.

--
Listserv moderated by Toyin Falola, University of Texas at Austin
To post to this group, send an email to USAAfric...@googlegroups.com
To subscribe to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDial...@googlegroups.com
Current archives at http://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
Early archives at http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index.html
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "USA Africa Dialogue Series" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to usaafricadialo...@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/usaafricadialogue/CAGBtzfMwMEf%3DCJKnio3m5YKBWEaLsvK6p0J6jhpzTZ0Y-NU70w%40mail.gmail.com.

[OLAYINKA AGBETUYI]

This long narrative of your recent intellectual exposure ( by which I mean last ten years) paradoxically confirms what you seem to be denying.

Why not let the seminar go ahead and let Afrocentrics develop similar repertoire of knowledge to what you cite here?  You cannot deny such systems exist Africa because of inadequate focus on Africa and deny the need for such focus at the same time.

Again forms of representation seem to be the issue here.  If largely oral cultures do not write aspects of their civilisation down and those with written cultures learn of them tinker with them and write down the products before the original owners get written down centuries later does that mean the first to write were the first to think through the knowledge?

  This seems to be the implication of your over reliance on googling and the written word.

By this mindset you would say ( as you have expressed the doubt on his existence on this forum) that my friend the Nazarene never lived, since he was illiterate and wrote nothing himself and about himself.  Others who lived with him wrote about him.

OAA

OAA

Sent from my Galaxy

-------- Original message --------

From: Oluwatoyin Adepoju <ovde...@gmail.com>

Date: 11/05/2021 12:08 (GMT+00:00)

To: usaafricadialogue <USAAfric...@googlegroups.com>

Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - African Fractals Seminar

This message is eligible for Automatic Cleanup! (ovde...@gmail.com) Add cleanup rule | More info

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/usaafricadialogue/DB6PR04MB2982A91BC0F4091C7ABA31D3A6549%40DB6PR04MB2982.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com.

--
Listserv moderated by Toyin Falola, University of Texas at Austin
To post to this group, send an email to USAAfric...@googlegroups.com
To subscribe to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDial...@googlegroups.com
Current archives at http://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
Early archives at http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index.html
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "USA Africa Dialogue Series" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to usaafricadialo...@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/usaafricadialogue/CAGBtzfPWcoj%2B10KjZKtnZU1p-2LOxF21REZO2fioaN4_fYTO-g%40mail.gmail.com.

[Oluwatoyin Adepoju]

On Information Systems

Are we not saying the same thing?

Information Systems is an umbrella term for non- scientific as well as scientific information systems.

The manual filing system, like a library card catalogues,  is a non- scientific information system.

The computerised filing system and the computerised library catalagues into which they may be converted are scientific information systems.

Information systems is an ancient human invention, dating back to the Ishango bone in African prehistory, described by one view as used in charting lunar cycles and possibly developed by women in connection with marking their periods.

Divination systems are also information systems.

All these may demonstrate some components, such as binary mathematics in Ifa,  similarities to which were later adapted in scientific methodology, even though Ifa itself is not scientific.

Divination systems and library card catalogues, both information systems, are non-scientific, while computers, a more recent method of information management, are.

Thanks

Toyin

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/usaafricadialogue/DB6PR04MB2982575ACCBB1411DB5825F0A6539%40DB6PR04MB2982.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com.

[Oluwatoyin Adepoju]

Oga Agbetuyi,

You have begun your usual strategy of degenerating  a discussion of intellectual subjects by going for the negatively personalising, through direct attack or through snide remarks, trying to deflect attention from the issues being discussed-

''This long narrative of your recent intellectual exposure ( by which I mean last ten years) paradoxically confirms what you seem to be denying.''

You are on your own.

You may represent whatever you think is valid in your last post, but without  negativisations of the person you are addressing or denigrating the  point being made rather than addressing its intellectual content,  those being your negative debate  strategies, and I will respond.

Otherwise I will ignore you.

Debates with you tend to end up as wrestling matches in mud. One way to checkmate you is to give you notice once you cross the line.

The points you are making are points I have already responded to at length anyway.

Thanks.

toyin 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/usaafricadialogue/DB6PR04MB2982984C7ABFA7734580E0FDA6539%40DB6PR04MB2982.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com.