RE: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Coups and Corruption

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OLAYINKA AGBETUYI

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Sep 5, 2021, 9:44:37 PM9/5/21
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Sabella my brother,


Yes you are right about corruption in Nigeria.  But we have been down the ' road to Kugali' of military coups in Nigeria before.  It is not a viable alternative.  It made Ibrahim Babangida one of the leading billionaires in the country today- the man who decisively corrupted all institutions so that he might NEVER be caught and brought to justice.

We need a clean alternative party of governance that can reject membership from the soiled parties.

There are almost 200 million Nigerians.  New carefully selected and elected members can be found.


OAA


Follow the Elegbara/Idoto blueprint.  Elect the first female Nigerian president come 2023



Sent from my Galaxy



-------- Original message --------
From: Sabella <sab...@gmail.com>
Date: 05/09/2021 23:31 (GMT+00:00)
To: USA Africa Dialogue Series <usaafric...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Coups and Corruption

Military coups can be terrible. In almost every instance, they serve no significant purpose. But under rare conditions, they become essential. As of today, there are seven governments on the African continent that deserve to be toppled because there are no scintilla of checks and balances left…the governing process has been corrupted and weakened to the point where the judiciary and the law-making bodies seem fused into the presidency.

It is basically a one-man show in those seven countries and with a high degree of political and economic excesses. Their leaders also show signs of Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder and or other mental disorders. At this point, therefore, a military coup d’état is about the only solution left. And in Nigeria, many do not want to admit that they cannot fight corruption using old approaches and tools.

The courts, police, and bodies like the EFCC are corrupted and or paralyzed and are therefore profoundly ineffective. It is either Nigeria legalize corruption or employ the Chinese Method. The entire system – economic, political, social, cultural, religious, etc., – is so weakened and debased and rendered nonsensical by corruption and corrupting acts that the country is not only stagnant but also showing signs of excruciating deterioration.

Things are so bad in Nigeria that less than ten percent of the elected, selected, and appointed can say “I am clean, I am not corrupt” and be vindicated by the “courts and the gods.”

Sabella O. Abidde

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Sabella Abidde

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Sep 6, 2021, 1:13:51 AM9/6/21
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Dear Brother Olayinka,

Good greetings! When I think of countries that are ripe for a temporary military coup, Nigeria does not come to mind. Did you say, “We need a clean alternative party of governance that can reject membership from the soiled parties… New carefully selected and elected members can be found”


Really? From where?


I read somewhere there that amongst the elected, selected, and the appointed, “if they are not stealing, they are waiting to steal.” When the opportunity presents itself…you chop, you carry, you steal.


As an aside: Those who railed against Gowon did the same when it was their turn to rule. Same with those who railed again Babangida.


Oh, the NADECO activists have been in power since 1999 - engaged in the same things they accused Babangida and Abacha of in terms of abuse of power, incompetence, trickiness, and larceny.


The same people who are today railing against Buhari are not likely to be different if given the opportunity. Many mainly think of Nigeria as a bordello – you go there to take your turn.  No penalties, no repercussions. This sh#it has been going on since at least October 2, 1960.

Sabella Abidde

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Alabama State University
915 South Jackson Street
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Office: G.W Trenholm Hall 203
Office: 334-604-8038 I Cell Phone: 334-538-8628

Oluwatoyin Adepoju

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Sep 6, 2021, 2:51:08 AM9/6/21
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"If I had the opportunity to be in govt in nigeria, would I steal?" is a question I ask myself.

Why would I steal?

What would I need?

What could I want that I could not get through legitimate growth?

Why do such systems as the UK NHS work so well, delivering high quality health care free to citizens?

Why is the money not stolen instead?

I have a dream.

Living in Lagos, I see so much human vitality, along with deep infrastructural inadequacy.

Recently, I visited a lovely family in Orisumbare in Lagos. In a densely populated environment, rich with small scale commerce, the roads were at best untarred tracks, dangerously slick with rain water, at times  partly swallowed  by puddles of water, red earth wetly exposed in a manner that had me lifting the trousers of my elegant agbada so they would not be soiled.

Yet, even within this environment, the people looked fresh and well fed, the children robust of face, the young women elegant and carefully groomed, the only people looking as if they were in a rustic environment being the elderly people.

"How are these people looking so well off?" I wondered? "What are they eating? What is their income?"

Imagine tarring all the roads in such a place and keeping it in that condition permanently. Making sure there is potable water in every house. Even rebuilding houses to the best, even if modest specifications.

Would I need my own money to fulfill such dreams, seek external funding or seek a govt appointment to access public funds for such a mission?

I look forward to visiting Orisumbare again. More exciting than the Ikeja estate where I live, where the residents are hardly seen on the streets, those most visible being their employees, walking seeming to be forbidden to most residents as the swiftness of vehicular motion seems the only way most people here move. 

Thanks

Toyin



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OLAYINKA AGBETUYI

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Sep 9, 2021, 7:50:39 PM9/9/21
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Brother Sabella.

You confirmed by your response the need for an alternative party of governance in Nigeria unyoked to the party in government and its main opposition.

You also confirm that the failure of Nigeria is the failure of its intellectual class and its failure to re- imagine an alternative future and alternative ways of bringing that future about.

New Labour in the UK  effectively knuckled down and did this so well in 1997 that it recorded an unparalleled landslide against the seemingly immutable Old Conservatives in the UK that it earned the sobriquet of the the greatest social engineers of the 20th century anywhere in the West.  

They permanently shifted the goal posts that every Conservative govt ever since had to deal with the new reality in order to win elections.  It was extremely hard work considering the previous reality on ground but it was completed with a single minded determination.

When you see the Nigerian intelligentsia cuddling with successive military regimes, rather than reading them the riot act that their moral capital is not for sale, that was a self- evident indictment of the whole intellectual class without singling out individuals.

No state in Africa deserves a military take over in view of the unsalutary performance of individual governments.  In fact the African Union should provide a caveat of exclusion in the African Union Charter excluding military regimes in its principle of non- intervention, inserting the proviso that the African Union reserves the right to flush out military regimes who take over civilian governments in member states by a coalition of military forces.

Any military force that took over power in this connection MUST name an interim civilian government within 24 hrs to organise fresh elections immediately.


OAA


A coin is not a coin without the operational validity of both sides.  It is a CRIMINAL oversight that in more than SIXTY years of its existence Nigeria has not produced a female president. Let those who believe in equity clamour for a FEMALE president come 2023. Let us end the testosterone driven climate of violence and fear in the polity.



Sent from my Galaxy

-------- Original message --------
From: Sabella Abidde <sab...@gmail.com>
Date: 06/09/2021 06:21 (GMT+00:00)
To: USA Africa Dialogue Series <usaafric...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Coups and Corruption

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Dear Brother Olayinka,

Good greetings! When I think of countries that are ripe for a temporary military coup, Nigeria does not come to mind. Did you say, “We need a clean alternative party of governance that can reject membership from the soiled parties… New carefully selected and elected members can be found”


Really? From where?


I read somewhere there that amongst the elected, selected, and the appointed, “if they are not stealing, they are waiting to steal.” When the opportunity presents itself…you chop, you carry, you steal.


As an aside: Those who railed against Gowon did the same when it was their turn to rule. Same with those who railed again Babangida.


Oh, the NADECO activists have been in power since 1999 - engaged in the same things they accused Babangida and Abacha of in terms of abuse of power, incompetence, trickiness, and larceny.


The same people who are today railing against Buhari are not likely to be different if given the opportunity. Many mainly think of Nigeria as a bordello – you go there to take your turn.  No penalties, no repercussions. This sh#it has been going on since at least October 2, 1960.

Sabella Abidde

On Sun, Sep 5, 2021 at 8:44 PM OLAYINKA AGBETUYI <yagb...@hotmail.com> wrote:


--
Professor of Political Science
Department of History and Political Science
Alabama State University
915 South Jackson Street
Montgomery, Alabama 36104
Office: G.W Trenholm Hall 203
Office: 334-604-8038 I Cell Phone: 334-538-8628

--
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Emeagwali, Gloria (History)

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Sep 12, 2021, 8:31:26 AM9/12/21
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OAA
If the African Union should create a military 
force to intervene in  countries, you would see
the proliferation of endless warfare on the 
continent.

Abiy Ahmed thought that he would put down
the rebellious TPLF in a month. In fact he 
declared victory  not long  after - but that 
war is far from over.   Military battles
have a life of their own. Egypt may be
supplying arms to suit its own Dam interests
in this particular case.

 When the idea of “Collective Security”
 was brought up as an
option for dealing with nation states
at the international level, in the newly formed 
United Nations, policy makers soon realized 
the difficulties in implementation  and control
with contributing forces and countries
 taking sides.

The US thought that ousting the Taliban 
was a cakewalk. We know better now.

Let us say that Colonel X staged a coup.
What would prevent the coup leader from 
creating  alliances with  external forces bigger
than the AU military that you propose?

Don’t get me wrong, I like this idea, in principle,
but it wouldn’t work in practice.



Professor Gloria Emeagwali
Prof. of History/African Studies, CCSU
africahistory.net; vimeo.com/ gloriaemeagwali
Recipient of the 2014 Distinguished Research
Excellence Award, Univ. of Texas at Austin;
2019 Distinguished Africanist Award
New York African Studies Association

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Sent: Thursday, September 9, 2021 7:37 PM
To: usaafric...@googlegroups.com <usaafric...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: RE: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Coups and Corruption
 

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Brother Sabella.

You confirmed by your response the need for an alternative party of governance in Nigeria unyoked to the party in government and its main opposition.

You also confirm that the failure of Nigeria is the failure of its intellectual class and its failure to re- imagine an alternative future and alternative ways of bringing that future about.

New Labour in the UK  effectively knuckled down and did this so well in 1997 that it recorded an unparalleled landslide against the seemingly immutable Old Conservatives in the UK that it earned the sobriquet of the the greatest social engineers of the 20th century anywhere in the West.  

They permanently shifted the goal posts that every Conservative govt ever since had to deal with the new reality in order to win elections.  It was extremely hard work considering the previous reality on ground but it was completed with a single minded determination.

When you see the Nigerian intelligentsia cuddling with successive military regimes, rather than reading them the riot act that their moral capital is not for sale, that was a self- evident indictment of the whole intellectual class without singling out individuals.

No state in Africa deserves a military take over in view of the unsalutary performance of individual governments.  In fact the African Union should provide a caveat of exclusion in the African Union Charter excluding military regimes in its principle of non- intervention, inserting the proviso that the African Union reserves the right to flush out military regimes who take over civili y an governments in member states by a coalition of military forces.

Harrow, Kenneth

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Sep 13, 2021, 6:47:57 AM9/13/21
to OLAYINKA AGBETUYI, usaafric...@googlegroups.com
the problem is, how can conflicts in africa be confronted and overcome.
gloria posts some of the problems, and you can multiply them. for instance, if a regime is particularly egregiously authoritarian and exploitative, you might want it overthrown, and would not want the au to intervene and stop a coup.
who gets to decide? the situation in equatorial guinea, for instance, might fit that description, but it isn't unique. and perhaps alpha conde was particularly bad, as certainly was the case with nkurunzima, whom covid decided to depose.

but the other side strikes me as more compelling. moses, i think it was, once remarked on how the victims of conflict in africa have needs and rights that outweigh any other considerations, like the legitimacy or justice of a given rule. we might say, better a bad peace than a good war. i suspect over the long run that might be true (i don't know if i quite got moses down correctly here).

to get specific: life in east congo is hell. there are 126 or more armed groups; there are killings, esp by the adf almost daily; there is outright theft of mineral wealth  probably to the tune of billions of dollars every year; and there is a weak and dysfunctional govt incapable of stopping this.

shouldn't it be stopped, in the name of the people of the congo?
ken

kenneth harrow

professor emeritus

dept of english

michigan state university

517 803-8839

har...@msu.edu

From: 'Emeagwali, Gloria (History)' via USA Africa Dialogue Series <usaafric...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 12, 2021 7:31 AM
To: OLAYINKA AGBETUYI <yagb...@hotmail.com>; usaafric...@googlegroups.com <usaafric...@googlegroups.com>

Gloria Emeagwali

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Sep 13, 2021, 9:42:42 AM9/13/21
to usaafric...@googlegroups.com, OLAYINKA AGBETUYI
Ken,
Is the government in Congo military or civilian? Was Kabila’s successor not
Ballot box elected? 

Yes. East Congo deserves
a better fate. I wonder if Moses
could clarify his views on this.

As I reflect on the fate of the women
of Afghanistan under the misogynistic 
Taliban, the question of intervention 
also resurfaces. Soyinka just called for
UN protectorate status for Nigeria - either sarcastically or seriously. With literary giants you never know.

But It all boils down to this:

Should there be intervention in
conflicts when there is the clear cut 
violation of human rights?

If yes, who should do it and exactly when?

If no, how would change come about?
A people’s uprising, a  “good” military coup followed by swift elections or what?

DT was elected in the US. He then proceeded to create the foundations for a fascist state with the help of the
evangelical hypocrites. What if his 
little coup attempt had materialized?
Who had the right to intervene?

Prof. Gloria Emeagwali 

On Sep 13, 2021, at 06:47, Harrow, Kenneth <har...@msu.edu> wrote:



Harrow, Kenneth

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Sep 13, 2021, 10:21:37 AM9/13/21
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gloria
i am not arguing that all elected govts are equal. some elections are more or less phony, like the ones in rwanda. i was glad tshisekedi was elected. and some military govts work better than so-called elected ones.
but on the whole, military dictatorships are bad for africa; mostly that's been true ever since independence.
you might want to debate this, but when one thinks of the worse nigerian ruler, which name pops up? starts with an a
the problem with military coups is that it is usually not a quick clean event that then turns into a just society with elections. just the opposite.
elections are postponed; the military take control of the economy; the people get screwed
ken

kenneth harrow

professor emeritus

dept of english

michigan state university

517 803-8839

har...@msu.edu

From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com <usaafric...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Gloria Emeagwali <gloria.e...@gmail.com>
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To: usaafric...@googlegroups.com <usaafric...@googlegroups.com>
Cc: OLAYINKA AGBETUYI <yagb...@hotmail.com>

Harrow, Kenneth

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Sep 13, 2021, 10:32:42 AM9/13/21
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last point on the congo.
the best example of a failed state and a failed military coup: congo. the elected leader assassinated, the military coup leader takes over, rules for 30 years, steals as much wealth as he can, lets the infrastructure be destroyed; loses control of the east, and is finally overthrown in a war. the worst mess in africa.
k

kenneth harrow

professor emeritus

dept of english

michigan state university

517 803-8839

har...@msu.edu

From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com <usaafric...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Gloria Emeagwali <gloria.e...@gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, September 13, 2021 7:47 AM
To: usaafric...@googlegroups.com <usaafric...@googlegroups.com>
Cc: OLAYINKA AGBETUYI <yagb...@hotmail.com>

Gloria Emeagwali

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Sep 13, 2021, 11:25:19 AM9/13/21
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Ken,

I am not arguing in support of military 
rule. Not at all. I am only pointing to
the dilemma that we are faced with.

Some civilian regimes are good, and
 others  bad.  Some military are good,
others bad.

I need not repeat the questions I 
raised in the previous post.


G

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