Zeleza: American debacle in Afghanistan

[Toyin Falola]

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/american-debacle-afghanistan-paul-tiyambe-zeleza


Sent from my iPhone

[Harrow, Kenneth]

zeleza's always interesting. two points to quibble over. first, before the u.s. invaded afghanistan, it had assisted the taliban in their insurrection against russia. and with that, entered into an ambiguous relationship with pakistan which supported the pashtun/taliban militias. pakistan made support for the taliban possible, and gave them refuge.

second, zeleza appears wrong in implying a rapport between iran and the taliban. the former has been their opponents for years, and the two remain at odds especially as iran is shia and the taliban are anti-shia.

ken

kenneth harrow

professor emeritus

dept of english

michigan state university

517 803-8839

har...@msu.edu

---

From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com <usaafric...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Toyin Falola <toyin...@austin.utexas.edu>
Sent: Sunday, August 15, 2021 5:10 PM
To: dialogue <USAAfric...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Zeleza: American debacle in Afghanistan

 

https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/american-debacle-afghanistan-paul-tiyambe-zeleza__;!!HXCxUKc!nQjkn33-DFa04Em8PjboRWbRD1kADA8rrDGwaa8b8vIvQlMvwwyaYsXFYmN59w$


Sent from my iPhone

--
Listserv moderated by Toyin Falola, University of Texas at Austin
To post to this group, send an email to USAAfric...@googlegroups.com
To subscribe to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDial...@googlegroups.com 
Current archives at https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue__;!!HXCxUKc!nQjkn33-DFa04Em8PjboRWbRD1kADA8rrDGwaa8b8vIvQlMvwwyaYsVKeYuC0g$
Early archives at https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index.html__;!!HXCxUKc!nQjkn33-DFa04Em8PjboRWbRD1kADA8rrDGwaa8b8vIvQlMvwwyaYsVHxVlqfg$
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "USA Africa Dialogue Series" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to usaafricadialo...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/usaafricadialogue/A0895EC8-63E0-4892-A2E0-410C99FA0369*40austin.utexas.edu__;JQ!!HXCxUKc!nQjkn33-DFa04Em8PjboRWbRD1kADA8rrDGwaa8b8vIvQlMvwwyaYsW7PT9p9w$ .

[Chambi Chachage]

Ken, Zeleza may appear wrong, but he is not.

Cf.

“Although Iran and the Taliban remained in a sectarian rivalry during the 1990s, the post-9/11 scenario in the region, especially a shared animosity toward the U.S. along with many other internal and external developments indicate that it would be disadvantageous for the insurgent group to cut their ties with the Islamic republic.

The misunderstandings leading to mistrust which prompted sectarian hatred between Iran and the Taliban have been evaporating, paving the way for a stable long-term alignment glued by and centered on political Islam. During their reign in the 1990s, the Taliban received patronage from Iran’s rival, Saudi Arabia. However, it was difficult for the Kingdom to take the side of its client (the Taliban) at the expense of its patron (the U.S.) in the post-9/11 world.“ -

https://thediplomat.com/2020/02/why-the-taliban-wont-cut-ties-with-iran/

“ Tehran respects the Taliban’s resilience, and notwithstanding their ideological differences, they have a lot in common, including their radical views and hostility toward the United States. This affinity could pave the way toward future strategic cooperation, provided the Taliban is willing to give credible guarantees for safeguarding the interests of Afghan Shia” - 

https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/iran-sets-its-eyes-afghanistan

Current archives at http://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
Early archives at http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index.html

---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "USA Africa Dialogue Series" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to usaafricadialo...@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/usaafricadialogue/BL1PR12MB5191431C2C1E0EB9FB297F5FDAFD9%40BL1PR12MB5191.namprd12.prod.outlook.com.

[Harrow, Kenneth]

we'll see. it's not clear, even from the articles you cited, whether that opposition will be overcome in the name of alliances against the u.s. the saudis finance the sunni regimes largely, and there has been shia opposition by tadjiks against the pashtun. will that evaporate? maybe

zeleza's pronouncement was too certain. we'll wait and see before we know

k

kenneth harrow

professor emeritus

dept of english

michigan state university

517 803-8839

har...@msu.edu

---

From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com <usaafric...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Chambi Chachage <chachag...@gmail.com>
Sent: Sunday, August 15, 2021 11:10 PM
To: usaafric...@googlegroups.com <usaafric...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: Zeleza: American debacle in Afghanistan

 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/usaafricadialogue/CALYfFMrQ6pYVGRdT3n2P8dSx-XDkhux2R%2Bjvz7dP%3D-95TSt3Ew%40mail.gmail.com.

[Emeagwali, Gloria (History)]

Well the whole thing is in flux but I

notice that Russia is digging in and

 keeping its embassy, while China no

doubt hopes to deepen its Belt and Road

Initiative. Both of them are on good terms 

with Iran.

Many  Afghans are fleeing

to Iran. It is not clear whether this would

help or hurt Iranian-Taliban relations.

Professor Gloria Emeagwali
Prof. of History/African Studies, CCSU
africahistory.net; vimeo.com/ gloriaemeagwali

---

From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com <usaafric...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Harrow, Kenneth <har...@msu.edu>
Sent: Monday, August 16, 2021 8:39 AM

To: usaafric...@googlegroups.com <usaafric...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: Zeleza: American debacle in Afghanistan

 

Please be cautious: **External Email**

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/usaafricadialogue/BL1PR12MB51919594846292B0ACF56287DAFD9%40BL1PR12MB5191.namprd12.prod.outlook.com.

[Harrow, Kenneth]

the key support for the taliban was pakistan. iran was in a more hostile position, despite the joined enmity to The Great Satan.

i don't believe very much in the shia sunni divide--i believe a lot more in the iran saudi divide, for which each side mobilized the religious trump card. but the real key has to be pakistan--alies of the chinese, but not overtly hostile to the u.s. they get played by india.

these are regional politics, which the u.s. got sucked into by the brain deficit of bush after 09/11. what will come now, i can only wonder.

i don't know how many of you have watched these great iranian films, some of the best on earth. it happens often enough that an afghani pops up in the film. they are inevitably poor laborers, looked down upon, exploited,"illegals"--meaning not employed legally, etc. sound familiar.

all of a sudden afghanistan and iran will be best friends? well, i could imagine a radical shift occurring, but only if each sees an advantage in it. and i confess not to knowing the region well enough to predict anything.

except one thing: pakistan is the key to afghanistan, the taliban. the others are all peripheral.

ken

kenneth harrow

professor emeritus

dept of english

michigan state university

517 803-8839

har...@msu.edu

---

From: Emeagwali, Gloria (History) <emea...@ccsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, August 16, 2021 9:30 AM
To: Harrow, Kenneth <har...@msu.edu>; usaafric...@googlegroups.com <usaafric...@googlegroups.com>