*The Attitudes of People of African Descent,
Particularly African-Americans** , to Caucasians in African Spiritualities *
*
History and its Interpretation*
*
Ifa Studies Group Journal*
Oluwatoyin Vincent Adepoju
Compcros <
http://danteadinkra.wixsite.com/compcros>
Comparative
Cognitive Processes and Systems
"Exploring Every Corner of the
Cosmos in Search of Knowledge"
I have been following the responses of people of African descent, largely
African-Americans, to the presence of Caucasians in African
spiritualities on the Ifa Studies Group
<
https://www.facebook.com/groups/oponifa/>, a Facebook community
celebrating the Yoruba origin Ifa system of knowledge and divination, which
has spread into the Americas and beyond.
I hereby share here a recent intervention by myself, the group's
administrator, and responses to that intervention.
Oluwatoyin Vincent Adepoju
<
https://www.facebook.com/oluwatoyinvincent.adepoju?fref=gs&__tn__=%2CdC-R-R&eid=ARChzbUe2fvfkLBbn3wfyFiBTGIFGs1eUdSCyRwEN1df0qdo5CIWCYenZE6ZglkCwim-zbPNdaUfoDd2&hc_ref=ARRxvE-Hez5K62Uey1aLHFlkNiGOnjRJebyPWU07DUeCxWeskqpNYZcoC2YS9bWCxoQ&dti=395292953933033&hc_location=group>
Admin
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· 19 January at 11:23
<
https://www.facebook.com/groups/oponifa/permalink/1830774947051486/>
*Embrace Racial Unity, Not Division
<
https://www.facebook.com/groups/oponifa/permalink/1830774947051486/>*
I have turned off comments on the post by Jean Philippe Mudaheranwa
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https://www.facebook.com/mudaheranwa.jeanphilippe?fref=gs&__tn__=%2CdK-R-R&eid=ARDCxGSJzyBdsQgqeEhpYqdYu3XinDrwFkm4SiKAzfbuZsRbH7rjmg-By5XU5SkET3zXuJY6W3WfnL7I&dti=395292953933033&hc_location=group>
wondering
why African-Americans and Cubans could be so insistent on race in Ifa even
though Ifa does not mention races or pigmentation, on account of the
vitriol the post has continued to inspire even after I pleaded for
understanding on all sides.
Some of the most important work in Ifa, Orisa and other African
spiritualities and cultures is done by Caucasians.
The immense suffering undergone by Diaspora Africans must be recognized.
At the same time, however, we must appreciate the contributions of all
peoples to African cultures so as to move the world beyond fixations on
pain and hate.
Images below:
Photograph of the great William Russel Bascom and of pioneering books by
him on Ifa
[image: image.png]
[image: image.png]
[image: No photo description available.]
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96Agnigbankou Livingstone Roland, Edward Craig and 94 others
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Alafi Malam
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the gentrification has begun
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Tierney Hamilton
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https://www.facebook.com/tierney.hamilton.7?fref=gc&dti=395292953933033> I
understand
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Anpu Yihael
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NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
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Samantha Rucker
<
https://www.facebook.com/slrucker?fref=gc&dti=395292953933033> I’m curious
about this one thing... I see you fighting to include white people and to
protect and establish a name for them in Ifa, which is typically a practice
of those within the African diaspora as we were trained to care for and
protect white people through white male domination. I want to ask you, have
you received this same treatment from white cultures? I imagine a response
similar to sharing and spreading love to people and/or something to the
effect of we are all brothers and sisters... etc. I have a difficult time
moving away from the way people of color have been trained to go to white
aid and to be such a strong advocate that we tend to abandon those who look
like us through the process, creating excuses for and protection to those
who benefit from harming us. People are people yes, however due to the
constructs of society, I have a hard time believing you haven’t been
influenced by these practices even with all of the initiations you may have
had and ascension. Something imperative is being ignored here, heavily
ignored. It is the support those within the African Diaspora need. We all
need to unite and find value in each other and ourselves and allowing space
for this without stating... well what about what this white person did?
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Dade Wade <
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I don't understand you sir...stop admonishing the victims (Africans) to
embrace racial unity. That is naive because the oppresors have never
embrace that. You are either being naïve or used...or rather selfdeceived
or blatantly ingnorant. Did you know how Africans are being treated in the
west? Did you know how many of our brothers and sisters who died in the sea
as a result of European policies that doesn't see african lives as sacred?
One British official even said on TV that those at risk on the sea
shouldn't be rescued. All these people coming to study your culture are
intelligence from their countries just like missionaries came in those days
with the bible only to decipher your preparedness and way of
thinking...they came to study you and with that could predict your actions
even decades before you could even dream of it. Don't be FOOLISH please ...
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Isoke Efia Edwards
<
https://www.facebook.com/isokee?fref=gc&dti=395292953933033> This is
insanity....so there is no safe space for African people to commune and
learn about our culture, our rituals, our birthrite without having white
people forced down our throats. Why must they be included in everything we
do ? I dont want to learn about Ifa from a white person PERIOD. Where are
all thegreat black scholars ? why would I trust the sons and daughters of
my enemy to teach me ? This is utter foolishness.
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Ayo Salami wrote very comprehensive books on Yoruba Culture and
religion..Google him...he is a Continental
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Isoke Efia Edwards
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Ola
Abimbola writes on Ifa and has a whole online training program
Ifa.university
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[image: Jean Philippe Mudaheranwa]
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Isoke Efia, how would you react if a white says exactly the samething? you
would probably cry and yell racism lol. double standards
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everyone should have the right to learn what he wants, every human is a
free soul,
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Isoke Efia Edwards
<
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Mudaheranwa
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I
dont care about white people. I dont care what they think about me . I dont
expect nothing from white people. I dont look to them for any kind of
validation. I wish they would stay out of African people business. I dont
care to procreate, socialize or have any kind of exchange with them. My
concern is African people first and foremost. When my people have been
given a chance to heal and commune uninterrupted. When we have a chance to
come into the fullness of ourselves without the interjection of white
people. When my people across the diaspora are able to unite and thrive
then and maybe then will I care to entertain white people and even then I
dont trust them as far as I can throw them.
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Jean Philippe Mudaheranwa
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Isoke Efia Edwards
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then
why dont you go back to africa then? it would help you to do all what u
have mentionned instead of staying there
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Isoke Efia Edwards
<
https://www.facebook.com/isokee?fref=gc&dti=395292953933033> Jean Philippe
Mudaheranwa where exactly Do u think I am from ? You think I am American ?
Why don’t u show your face in your profile pic so I can tell which hole to
go back to. Go back to Africa you say.....I was waiting for you to take it
there and u did not disappoint. That’s some shit white people say when they
come up on someone that don’t give two shits about them or what they think.
Assuming that you are white ( cause u going real hard not to be)...you
cannot begin to understand what it means to be an African displaced out
side of the continent. You do not know what it is to stripped of identity,
your culture, your rituals, your tribe...u do not understand the
psychological mind fuck that was and is colonisation. You do not know what
it is to see remnants of your ancestors in yourself manifest sporadically
and feel a longing to connect but also feel very afraid. I cannot look to
white people to fill those voids for me. I cannot trust them to help me
understand what it means to be African through Ifa or any other context
that specifically pertains to the experience and tradition of my ancestors.
Africa is not jus a continent...when we were thrust through the middle
passage and into the belly of the beast Africa became state of mind, a life
line and so it remains
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[image: Jean Philippe Mudaheranwa]
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Jean Philippe Mudaheranwa
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no matter what you lived or think you lived, anyone on this planet has the
right to learn and assimilate to any culture he wants.
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· 5d
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Isoke Efia Edwards
<
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Mudaheranwa
<
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spoken
like a true COLONIZER.
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· 5d
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Jacko Bazzi
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Isoke Efia Edwards
<
https://www.facebook.com/isokee?fref=gc&dti=395292953933033&hc_location=ufi>....I
understand your hate of everything white..even though I'm not black or
African American..and your distrust of the white race (although that is a
very broad brush)...however don't you think the deep problems have to do
more with deep deep wounds from the dehumanzing slave industry
.than any perceived wrongdoing going on now?..we
all(Black,Asian,White)..need to heal ourselves. You have a much deeper
ancestral connection to Indigenous Black African practices than me...and
Ifa and Orisha have worked healing miracles in my life.
Ire..
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· 5d
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Isoke Efia Edwards
<
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<
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Please
refrain from putting words in my mouth. I don't hate white people. I
harbour no ill will towards them. Absolutely I distrust them across the
board even the few I am friendly with because I understand how our
ancestral relationships worked and how that has impacted and shaped not
just my experience but theirs as well. So much so that some things have
been ingrained in their DNA...their very nature. I am simply saying why
can't African people enjoy, explore or lay claim to African practices,
rituals, art, culture etc without white people getting involved, staking a
claim or feeling as if they are entitled to such practices and spaces. FYI
turn on the news...African people still being exploited and persecuted to
this very day but we are continuously expected to turn the other cheek...to
welcome anyone in to partake of our gifts. Its pure insanity and I make no
apologizes for how I feel or what I have expressed on this page.
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· 5d
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Asukile Mitchell
<
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Philippe Mudaheranwa
<
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Been
silently observing this dialogue, however I must point out to you the
difference between the 2 parties in your statement is that a white person
saying that statement would have to contend with the extended history of
great harm done to black folk without apology or restitution to repair the
damage done. A black person making the statement is reacting to the greatharm
done to his/her people by invading groups of whites.
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· 4d
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Jeff Gonzalez
<
https://www.facebook.com/jeff.gonzalez.581?fref=gc&dti=395292953933033> As
a cuban I am always careful when I post on these issues. The earlier
researchers and writers were in their greatmajority white men. This
occurred across the globe- in Africa , Asia Latin America. It has more to
do within the evolution of educational institutions around the globe. Let
us keep in mind that yoruba as a written language was standardized by
Samuel Crowther during the late 19th century - and its purpose was to
proselytize Christianity.
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· 5d
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Indigenous Rootz
<
https://www.facebook.com/ndigenousrootz?fref=gc&dti=395292953933033> You
working real hard to make these Anglos acceptable...what gift did you
receive for such betrayal on Egungun?
5
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· 5d
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Jeff Gonzalez
<
https://www.facebook.com/jeff.gonzalez.581?fref=gc&dti=395292953933033> Does
anyone here know the babalawos who worked with him in Nigeria ?
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· 5d
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· Edited
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[image: Indigenous Rootz]
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Indigenous Rootz
<
https://www.facebook.com/ndigenousrootz?fref=gc&dti=395292953933033> Yes
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· 5d
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[image: Jeff Gonzalez]
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Jeff Gonzalez
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Indigenous
Rootz
<
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-
who ?
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· 5d
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Jeff Gonzalez
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Indigenous
Rootz
<
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-
are you going to respond ?
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· 5d
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[image: Indigenous Rootz]
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Indigenous Rootz
<
https://www.facebook.com/ndigenousrootz?fref=gc&dti=395292953933033> One
was Araba Ifayemi Elebuibon.
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· 5d
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Jeff Gonzalez
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Indigenous
Rootz - not correct. His first research was in the late 1930’ followed by a
second extended period in 1950-51. Ifayemi was born in 1947. The sources
for the ifa verses are from the Agbongbon of ile-ife. His great-grandson is
the Aseda of ile-Ife and a very good friend. , Oba Aseda Tomiwa Fatunmishe
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· 5d
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· Edited
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[image: Indigenous Rootz]
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Indigenous Rootz
<
https://www.facebook.com/ndigenousrootz?fref=gc&dti=395292953933033> Jeff
<
https://www.facebook.com/jeff.gonzalez.581?fref=gc&dti=395292953933033&hc_location=ufi>,
are you suggesting that Araba Ifayemi Elebuibon has not guided or taught
Awo Falokun? Be mindful of the titles please.
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· 5d
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Jeff Gonzalez
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Indigenous
Rootz
<
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-
we are talking about William bascom and his research on Ifa . This string
has nothing to do with Awo Falokun
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· 5d
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[image: Indigenous Rootz]
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Indigenous Rootz
<
https://www.facebook.com/ndigenousrootz?fref=gc&dti=395292953933033> Jeff
Gonzalez
<
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my
bad. Got crossed between this and the other postings advocating Anglo-Aryan
European Saxon acknowledgment in Ifá. I stand corrected. I do not know this
man's history. But I know whenever and whoever he learned odu from was
Egungun or a Ebionite Babalawo or Iyanifa. Show their images and I'll
credit the students for being good scholars. Show the student as the
originator and I call plaigerism.
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· 5d
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Jeff Gonzalez
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Indigenous
Rootz
<
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-
if you read the preface to his book that was published in 1969 (50 years
ago). You will see his acknowledgements to the towns and sources of his
research. Dr. Bascom was a scholar focused on highlighting the beauty of
yoruba culture.
2
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· 5d
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Malata Li-Ana Koena
<
https://www.facebook.com/nkhanyapa?fref=gc&dti=395292953933033>He was
studying your system to know how to defeat you, it's an old skool trick. If
you study a nation's spiritual system you know everything about them, if
you know everything about them it's easier for you to conquer them
spiritually and physically. Number one rule of war is never let the enemy
know your strategy.
They send guys like him all over Africa, to be spies.
8
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· 5d
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· Edited
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[image: Jeff Gonzalez]
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Jeff Gonzalez
<
https://www.facebook.com/jeff.gonzalez.581?fref=gc&dti=395292953933033> Malata
Li-Ana Koena
<
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who are you talking about ?
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Ola Sunkanmi Kayode Lucas
<
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you think they can defeat Yoruba spiritual way it's a lie..Yoruba are not
daft.we give and take.If any white try shit the irumole will work against
them
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Mark Rogers
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Culture Vultures, I'm very suspicious of whites, they taint everything
they touch, distort and abuse. Let history guide you here, their good
intentions are faulty and suspect in my opinion.
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Desi Richards
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Rogers
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👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾
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Desi Richards
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this DAY!
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Awo Falokun
<
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Bascom collected a large number of religions icons when he was a young
student living in NIgeria when he got older her realized his mistake and
returned everything to Nigeria there is a library in UC Berkeley named
after him with 200,000 pages of unpublished field notes including his
documentation of the of the Christian Crusade against Iyami in the 1950's
his book on Ifa divination was the source material for the glossary of
Liturgical Yoruba words that is the foundation for all the books I have
written over the past thirty years. He was initiated into Ogboni on the
condition that he never write about Ogboni and he honored that taboo
completely he is remembered well ire lona iponri atiwo orun
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Jeff Gonzalez
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Falokun
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-
and he was initiated into ifa in ile-Ife.
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Jeff Gonzalez
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Falokun
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-
Bascom returned some items the rest are part of the Hearst museum .
https://hearstmuseum.berkeley.edu/collection/
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HEARSTMUSEUM.BERKELEY.EDU
Collections Archive – Phoebe A. Hearst Museum of Anthropology
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Awo Falokun
<
https://www.facebook.com/awo.falokun?fref=gc&dti=395292953933033> To be
fair his work was financed by the CIA as a way of understanding the culture
for political reason When he was older he admitted this deception and
apologized
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Jeff Gonzalez
<
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Falokun
<
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-
do you have a source for this assertion? I visited Berta several times in
Berkeley and she denied this- I have also looked over hundreds of pages of
his notes that are housed in the bandcroft library.
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Ominiyi Adesanya Awoyade
<
https://www.facebook.com/ominiyi.awoyade?fref=gc&dti=395292953933033> ....and
there you have it!! 🙅♀️🙅♀️🙅♀️🙅♀️
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Awo Falokun
<
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Gonzalez
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John
Turpin one of his students told me this
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Jeff Gonzalez
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Falokun
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-
thank you
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Olugbenga Oshinowo
<
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Falokun
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say
no more
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Joshua Myrick
<
https://www.facebook.com/mystic.blessing?fref=gc&dti=395292953933033> Ok
what drug have you ingested? I am not saying I do not agree with moving
beyond pain so we can experience the release of our mental suffering. This
of course will bring upward mobility but for you to say thousands of years
of contributions of a religion is surpassed by some help provided means I
need to get high on what your smoking. Just saying. Ogunda Irosun. Keep
your wine.
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[image: Oba Pedro Velez]
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Oba Pedro Velez
<
https://www.facebook.com/PedroVelez27?fref=gc&dti=395292953933033> I just
don’t get how we so damn accepting of these nefarious people. We let them
in and defend them which is sickening. Yes IFA is about spirituality but if
we allow these pale fox to come in and teach they will prevert it like
everything they touch.
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Jeff Gonzalez
<
https://www.facebook.com/jeff.gonzalez.581?fref=gc&dti=395292953933033> I
read some of these comments and I’m confused. Whites have been part of
yoruba religious traditions since/before Suzanne wenger was initiated to
Obatala in the early 1950’s - let’s add bascom and verger and Herskovits
etc etc. This is nothing new - Cu…See more
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Kristina D. Moore
<
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Gonzalez Many people in Brazil and Cuba are of or have some African descent
so I don't know if I would count them as non-Africans.
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Joshua Myrick
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Thousands
of verses per odu and what did they contribute. Ogunda Irosun?
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Simply multiple verses per Odu not Thousands per Odu
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Rogers
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Really are you sure about that
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Yes
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Joshua Myrick
<
https://www.facebook.com/mystic.blessing?fref=gc&dti=395292953933033> The
odu is the same it is the interpretation that changes. Those
interpretations I call verses. Thousands of years and there are only a few?
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Joshua Myrick
<
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Aboye Abosise. May Orunmila bless you.
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There are 256 Holy Odu , none are the same. The Babalawo will interpret as
necessary according to each question or situation.
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Joshua Myrick
<
https://www.facebook.com/mystic.blessing?fref=gc&dti=395292953933033> That
interpretation when written is called a verse in my opinion or ifa poetry.
The verse you read is not the only interpretation of odu. If it was there
would be 256 verses
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Joshua Myrick
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you a babalawo?
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No
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The interpretation of Odu is not a verse
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Each Odu has its own chant or prayer.
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Joshua Myrick
<
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I can not talk with u on this level receive initiation and experience
first. May Orunmila bless you.
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Joshua
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ashe
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<
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how
are you godson?
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Joshua Myrick
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me
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Mark Rogers
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Pointedly foolish and contradictorial, the cruel kindness.
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Jean Philippe Mudaheranwa
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Hello everyone, I am the one who was tagged. I am not satisfied with the
way Vincent tagged my name. He should have said that I was the one on the
good side and the one who was not racist.
For those of you who havent read my post, it was a quite simple and benign
question.
the question was: since ifa doesnt talk about race and skin tone, why
afroamericans and in a lesser extent cubans always bring it in here.
Thats it, it was a simple question. Some people reacted by saying that ifa
does talk about races and skin color, when i asked, they failed to provide
me the verse.
And as usual, We have some afroamerican (usually women) who came and
exploded on a racial rant. im not even sure they took the time to meditate
on the question before they answer.
This question is of big importance, since afroamericans are usually the
black group who tend to be very sensitive to questions related to races
while we especially in east africa takes things easy and try to be
impartial, even if it doesnt always succeed.
Afroamericans yell to racism when some whites in the states say they want a
white community, or an all-white school, or when whites say anything that
afroamericans dont want to hear.
I then wonder why everytime there is a post related to races, afroamericans
flock in to say how much whites cannot take part in any african
spirituality and how much their ancestors suffered.
The point is ifa is not a racist or racial ideology. If it was the case, it
wouldnt even accept people who are not yoruba. it would exclude all people
who are not yoruba, white or black.
ao since afroamericans want a strictly black racist organization, why cant
they form their own racist philosophy where non whites arent allowed or
just join nation of islam, another racial organization.
Im not an ifa practitionmer or am ifa priest, but it pains me to see that
afroamericans use ifa for their racial agenda instead of moving on.
I came from a country (rwanda), which experienced a genocide in 3 months
which was much more violent than what afroamericans experienced in 400
years of slavery.
We came tot he conclusion that we must move on, improve and try to find
ways so that it never reproduce. If we did it, I think afroamericans can do
it to. I came to this group to learn and share from others , not to listen
to some racist rants
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Joshua Myrick
<
https://www.facebook.com/mystic.blessing?fref=gc&dti=395292953933033> Here
is a scenario. I kidnap your mother. I rape her then you are born. I beat
you rape you then sell you. You find a wife so I rape your wife and you.
Then I rape the child and sell them. Do this for 400 years and you will
have a part of the story. How do you feel when I mention the people's
relatives that did that to you. I mean I invited you to a barbecue. You
know get over it. Or not?
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· 5d
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Ayeni Sola Stephen
<
https://www.facebook.com/ayenisola.stephen.9?fref=gc&dti=395292953933033> Jean
IFA is the word of God so Orunmila is sent by God to bring this word to man
kind just like Christ and Mohammed. IFA dose not know race, colour and
countries lf you have IFA divination for you a lot of secret will revealed
to you about past, present and future. IFA known your destiny when you are
coming from heaven to earth if you doubt it take your time and come to a
good Babalawo in Nigerian I said come to Nigeria cause their lot of
fraudster on the internet. Lol
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· 4d
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Mark Rogers
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Would you like to hear the abridged version or the history ?
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· 5d
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Jean Philippe Mudaheranwa
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Mark Rogers
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which
is?
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· 5d
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Rashied Bey
<
https://www.facebook.com/professorsharrieff?fref=gc&dti=395292953933033> I
teach Sociology of Race & Ethnicity. Would you really like to know? Because
if yes, you'll need a seat, coffee and a sandwich. You're going to be here
for awhile.
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· 5d
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Beverly Bolden
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its true..most of my healing has come from white folk reiki training
exercise tips on youtube entity removal auric reading..its like the messed
us over now the healing comes from them too. Makes sense a person less
traumatized than you has that ability. I to reason with that.
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· 5d
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Isoke Efia Edwards
<
https://www.facebook.com/isokee?fref=gc&dti=395292953933033> I realize
Jean Philippe Mudaheranwa has chosen to attack the African women on this
thread. That is no surprise.....history repeatly shows us this is nothing
new. You also choose to single out African Americans as if they are to be
held separately and apart from other “groups of black people” as you put
it. Divide and conquer is the name of the game....nothing has changed
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· 5d
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[image: Jean Philippe Mudaheranwa]
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Jean Philippe Mudaheranwa
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no, im just sickened to see how much afroamericans take everything
personal and are so much inside hate and fear instead of moving on. in all
african forums, oages, groups there is you guys trying to make divisions
between everything
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· 5d
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Jean Philippe Mudaheranwa
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what is wrong if someone black or not decide to learn some5hing and devote
his life to it? what if asians started to say that from now on, only asians
would be able to learn kung fu or karate and each continent decide to
exclude others?
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· 5d
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[image: Jean Philippe Mudaheranwa]
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Jean Philippe Mudaheranwa
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and yes, there is a disproportionate amount of women complaining and
ranting on racial issues in this group, check it by yourself.
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· 5d
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Isoke Efia Edwards
<
https://www.facebook.com/isokee?fref=gc&dti=395292953933033> Jean Philippe
Mudaheranwa I do not hate you...nor do I fear you. We can not move on...we
have not been given the space of freedom to collectively heal from a
lifetime of Trauma. You don t get to dictate how , when , where that
healing and moving on looks like. You don’t get to tell us move on already.
Give us some god damn breathing room. We don’t have to include you in
everything that we do. We don’t have to make room for you. You wanna study
Ifa do so and shut the hell up...don’t come into these spaces where African
people looking for healing and refuge talking bout you the biggest and best
scholars and You responsible for the enlightenment of black folks. GTFOH.
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· 5d
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· Edited
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[image: Jean Philippe Mudaheranwa]
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Jean Philippe Mudaheranwa
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Im african rwandese. look how you look stupid now.
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· 5d
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Isoke Efia Edwards
<
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Mudaheranwa
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that
negates nothing I have said...if are indeed African... you are the most
damaged of us and I pity you.
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· 5d
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Samantha Rucker
<
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Edwards
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It’s
called Entitlement. Patriarchy. Male Dominance. He places himself upon a
pedestal and can’t see past his own image. So, yes. Of course he has
attacked the Black Woman and that of Black Americans. I am not surprised.
He’s fighting to divide the African Diaspora and to integrate with white
male dominance.
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· 5d
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William TruthMaze Harris
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Jean Philippe Mudaheranwa
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So
then are you saying that your thought processes haven’t been altered by
race ideology...I’m just curious ?
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· 3d
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Faseye Sangobukunmi
<
https://www.facebook.com/jamel.cherry?fref=gc&dti=395292953933033> I think
the issue is raising white folk on pedestal. If they do good works let’s
celebrate it but we need to celebrate all those who have contributed to our
culture, not just white folk. Most of them were academics (Bascom, Beir,
etc). Others were not (Wenger). The issue is to place white over black. All
of this is happening within a cultural context of racism, academic western
condescension, and white superiority so it would be expected that some
people of color would be sensitive to it. I have no issue with
acknowledging the academic achievements of whites who have studied our
culture. The slippery slope comes when we start holding them higher than we
hold ourselves and allow white superiority privilege to seep into an
African based tradition. Some of us are still mentally enslaved though we
practice African spirituality because we still need white or western
validation. Some of us are also hypersensitive to white involvement at all
to African tradition despite Orisa accepting individuals despite their race
or creed. Orisa uses human beings as tools to spread their will and
sometimes they use white folk. Suzanne Wenger is a perfect example. I think
Orisa used her as an example to help expand and grow respect for Orisa
culture. We have to see beyond our political and ethnic biases sometimes.
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· 5d
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Oluwatoyin Vincent Adepoju
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I am highlightingCaucasians in order to offset the racism some people on
this group are directing agst Caucasians in Ifa and Orisa.
My efforts have nothing to do with placing Caucasians over Black people and
nothing to do with " racism, academic western condescension, and white
superiority [ or seeking] white or western validation ".
Thanks for recognizing the hypersensitivity of some Black people to
Caucasian involvement in Ifa and Orisa.
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· 5d
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Faseye Sangobukunmi
<
https://www.facebook.com/jamel.cherry?fref=gc&dti=395292953933033&hc_location=ufi>,
im responding to what i see as the challenge of your comment by expanding
the scope of my summations so as not to give the wrong impression of
elevating once race over another. You may see my new set of postings.
Please feel free to add yours particularly from your exposure in the
diaspora and Africa.
Great thanks
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· 5d
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· Edited
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[image: Faseye Sangobukunmi]
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Faseye Sangobukunmi
<
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Vincent Adepoju
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Well.
I totally understand your point and my post only tries to explain various
dynamic behind the backlash. I’m one who falls in the middle of the
perspective. I feel Ifa is for everyone so long as they learn, study
and respect
the culture which it comes from. I’ve had my fair share of “debates” with
those of the “no- whites should be included” persuasion and those in the
“we need white validation” persuasion or the “no blacks sgoukd br included”
persuation. All three exist. Many not familiar with the various aspects of
white racism don’t realize there was a concerted effort to even prevent
blacks from practicing Orisa earlier in history of Orisa practice in
America. And you also have many white and light skinned Orisa practitioners
who hold racist views towards those of the darker hues. Ive experienced
this myself. So my post is to highlight some of the dynamics. In my opinion
the response to racism is never to emulate the racism of your oppressor.
Then we are just like them. Our goal is to proceed with caution and judge
folk intentions by their works on an individual basis not their color.
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· 3d
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· Edited
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[image: Oluwatoyin Vincent Adepoju]
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Oluwatoyin Vincent Adepoju
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Faseye Sangobukunmi
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great thanks.
I am informed about past and ongoing racism agst Black people in the US,
including the efforts to make sure they neither had education nor could
practice their native spiritualities.
As you put it, we need to rise above such dynamics while watching out for
them.
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· 5d
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· Edited
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Zibusiso Miller
<
https://www.facebook.com/zibusiso.iii?fref=gc&dti=395292953933033> Black
people cannot be and are not "racist" toward europeans. This has been a
very old debate amongst those in the diaspora as a people who have a more
direct interaction in such regard.
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· 5d
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Zibusiso Miller
<
https://www.facebook.com/zibusiso.iii?fref=gc&dti=395292953933033> Racism
has been well defined and researched by African American scholars.
Prejudice, yes. Racism, no.
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· 5d
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Faseye Sangobukunmi
<
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Miller
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Semantics.
I’ve heard the argument that black folk can’t be racist because we don’t
have power. But we do have power. If I’m a black Human Resources manager
and I don’t hire a person because they are white then I’m being racist
prejudiced
or whatever you want to call it. If black folk are in positions of power to
deny a white person something because of their color then that’s being
racist because it’s based on race and the color of their skin.
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· 5d
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Zibusiso Miller
<
https://www.facebook.com/zibusiso.iii?fref=gc&dti=395292953933033> I had
the same opinion as you once Faseye
<
https://www.facebook.com/jamel.cherry?fref=gc&dti=395292953933033&hc_location=ufi>.
We also have our own countries where we can exert prejudice with power also
but its not the same... european racism feeds directly into an overwhelming
detrimental impact. How many do you influence? Through their crimes and
continued imperialism in our countries their justification for such a
mentality is grossly damaging, it extends towards the ICC and their
interactions with us in high level politics, finance, foerign "aid", trade
deals, migration laws etc... research who has been tried and sentenced at
the ICC. It mirrors the prison systems in their countries and our
disproportionate numbers there.
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· 5d
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Zibusiso Miller
<
https://www.facebook.com/zibusiso.iii?fref=gc&dti=395292953933033> It
sounds like Ifa is being used to advocate toxic positivity... in all
religions and cultures, self defence is a must. From Buddhist to Muslim and
Christian all know how and when to defend their cultural values... our
problem as Africans is that we have/had not faced invaders from outside of
Africa, ditto the American Indians and Aborigines. This has the impact of
us not having a mentality of introversion and self preservation as seen
amongst people who have long suffered invasion, both militant and cultural
over prolonged periods of time for various reasons like location or
nomadism... the polish, the jews, the eastern indians, all practice a level
of distinct self preservation... the same is also seen with us as Africans
where we have had direct one on one interaction with europeans enough to
know how they think..
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· 5d
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[image: Zibusiso Miller]
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Zibusiso Miller
<
https://www.facebook.com/zibusiso.iii?fref=gc&dti=395292953933033> Back to
your point.... what reason do racist europeans have for their aggression
and crimes against us and others? In comparison, why do black people often
express anger toward europeans? Not even european people have an answer for
their aggression toward others other than their innate right to behave in
such a way due to their "superiority".
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· 5d
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[image: Zibusiso Miller]
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Zibusiso Miller
<
https://www.facebook.com/zibusiso.iii?fref=gc&dti=395292953933033> Also
racism as defined by A.America scholars makes note of their fear of
melaninated people and acceptance of non melinated people... ie: Racism has
a distinct psycology. There is no comparison in that regard. We blacks do
not hate pale blacks or other pale people.
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· 5d
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Faseye Sangobukunmi
<
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Miller
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For
me Enemy is whoever is against my progress. It may be a white person or
black person or a person of sny color for that matter. We will see based on
individual actions and I judge folk on an individual basis not based on
race. If we will be honest with ourselves and history we will understand
that black folk have been in earth way longer than white folk...and at that
time who was the enemy.? Who enslaved us? Who killed, pillaged raped our
people. It was us. And we continue to do so even today White folk are late
in the game. White culture has their sins as well as black folk. Don’t
misinterpret my views as a weak stance on injustice. It’s just when we are
raced focused we fail to see how sometimes we are our greatest enemies.
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· 5d
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· Edited
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Zibusiso Miller
<
https://www.facebook.com/zibusiso.iii?fref=gc&dti=395292953933033> Agree.
We do need to face ourselves. We lack self responsibility in the west...
how do we not have our own shops and schools? How are our children killing
each other in the street for scraps like animals? Why do we protest so
loudly about racism and yet do nothing to protect ourselves from it!?
I think fear plays a part... look what they did to us when we did build our
own towns (tulsa etc) and look at what happened to our leaders who stood
for us 😔😔😔
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· 5d
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[image: Zibusiso Miller]
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Zibusiso Miller
<
https://www.facebook.com/zibusiso.iii?fref=gc&dti=395292953933033> I don't
hate them... but I reserve the right to be upset and fustrated by them. Its
nice that some work our religions but I wouldn't praise them too much for
it. Not while we suffer from the poverty their crimes put upon us... we'd
have much better books otherwise! 😂😂😂
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· 5d
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Zibusiso Miller
<
https://www.facebook.com/zibusiso.iii?fref=gc&dti=395292953933033> Am a
child of Shango. Am going to let him rest now .lol. Speak soon if you
reply, is 3:20am here in London, england 😴😴😴
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· 5d
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Miller
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Im
a priest of Sango for 15 years. And what I have grown to learn is that
while discussion of these issues is important, in our tradition we have the
luxury of direct communication with our black dieties AND they have
accepted other races so the case should be closed. It’s our choice if we do
or not. But it doesn’t really matter because Orisa are the authorities.
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Faseye Sangobukunmi
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Miller
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Ok.
Good night.
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Kristina D. Moore
<
https://www.facebook.com/KristinaDMoore40?fref=gc&dti=395292953933033> I
may leave this group. I am not initiated but am reading and learning. I
joined this group to learn. However, this post has disheartened me. I am
all for any person of any ethnicity who is initiated in an ATR to be
treated the same as anyone else as long as they respect the root. However,
in this thread, there has been very insensitive comments made that pretty
much dismisses the past and current subjugation of Black and Brown people.
Why is it not understandable that Black and Brown people may be distrustful
of the motives of White people considering all that has and continues to
happen? I have not seen much compassion or understanding given just being
extremely critical. Walk in my shoes before you tell me how to feel. That
attitude does not help the trust level. It comes across as dismissive. Just
my thoughts.
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· 5d
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I do understand your post more than you think an Oyimbo might..and agree.
wholeheartedly. I have to point out that if a person with no immediate
ancestral ties to black Africa is initiated to a West African religion for
insincere or superficial purposes (or even more so it is not their
destiny)...the Orisha and or Ifa has more than enough power to teach them a
lesson or for want of a better term....to a spit them out. However If they
are meant to be in said religion(s)...they are meant to be ....
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· 5d
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Ife Afa
<
https://www.facebook.com/megan.lehman.986?fref=gc&dti=395292953933033> This
is the best book you can find for the Odu in Merindilogun
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· 5d
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Burton Lewis
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· 5d
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Zibusiso Miller
<
https://www.facebook.com/zibusiso.iii?fref=gc&dti=395292953933033> You do
not praise the person who gained their social advantage in having broken a
thing when he lends you a spanner to try and fix it. The idea is
non-sensical.
3
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· 5d
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Ojore Kalonji Olugbala
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Ifa is a global concept.
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· 5d
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Nyah Amara <
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Why?
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· 5d
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Ekpe Senzanga
<
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Amara
<
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A
BIG why???!
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· 4d
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André Andy Lassalle
<
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Ferris Thompson Obatala!!!!
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· 4d
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André Andy Lassalle
<
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Ferris Thompson!!!!
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· 4d
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Creole Queen
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TENOR
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· 4d
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Ekpe Senzanga
<
https://www.facebook.com/arkhitekt.jegna?fref=gc&dti=395292953933033> Look
at us protecting these colonisers in our own house!!! I beg ooooo
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· 4d
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· Edited
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[image: Ayodele Sosu]
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Ayodele Sosu <
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Which
white person is feeding you that has made you post this rubbish ?
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· 4d
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[image: Ekpe Senzanga]
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Ekpe Senzanga
<
https://www.facebook.com/arkhitekt.jegna?fref=gc&dti=395292953933033> What
we need to understand is IFÀ needn’t mentioned race, pigmentations or
oyinbo because all we ever was surrounded by was ourselves, which were
African people.
When Odu’s were revealed these colonisers weren’t even in the equation or
in thought, again.... as we hadn’t of even encountered them until yesterday.
Oyinbo (Non/Africans/Enemies/Colonisers) were not apart of our social
experience, therefore why would we need to make such racial distinctions.
All we cared about was ‘iwa Pele’ but SINCE we have encountered our
historical & present day enemies we need Odu’s & principles to be developed
for these people.
When IFÀ says all humans, it is not inclusive of Non Africans, just like
when these Oyinbo wrote ‘All’ in the Quran & Bible it was not inclusive of
us Afrikans.
We should not have our enenies in our cultural spheres, that is a big No no
and it is very unwise. Anybody whom advcates for them is of bad character.
(Omosan)
Don’t debate me, debate the ancestors.
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· 4d
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· Edited
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[image: Omi Saide]
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Omi Saide <
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Ekpe
Senzanga
<
https://www.facebook.com/arkhitekt.jegna?fref=gc&dti=395292953933033&hc_location=ufi>
all
that you say is true, but the fact is, they are already here. What you
gonna do NOW? It's like closing the barn door AFTER all the animals have
run out. Revised solutions are necessary. IJS......
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· 3d
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Ekpe Senzanga
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Capitalism
which is a offspring of Colonialism has us comprising the interests, honour
& safety of our culture, people & land.
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· 4d
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[image: Ayodele Sosu]
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Ayodele Sosu <
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Ekpe
Senzanga
<
https://www.facebook.com/arkhitekt.jegna?fref=gc&dti=395292953933033&hc_location=ufi>
I
live in Ghana born and raise on the streets of Lagos Nigeria, the average
African has no idea what colonialization is. Not an excuse for foolery tho
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· 4d
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[image: Ekpe Senzanga]
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Ekpe Senzanga
<
https://www.facebook.com/arkhitekt.jegna?fref=gc&dti=395292953933033> Ayodele
Sosu
<
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Brother,
I believe...and I’m afraid this is even a unfortunate phenomenon in the
diaspora too.
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· 4d
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Agnigbankou Livingstone Roland
<
https://www.facebook.com/priest.16?fref=gc&dti=395292953933033> THATS THE
SPIRIT OF HUMANITY and "GOD SAID I REGRET I CREATED ....MAN. condemning one
another, Despirately wicked...
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· 4d
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Ron Eddins
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There were only Africans in ifa inception then along came the colonizers
ijs..think before you drink
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· 4d
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[image: Ron Eddins]
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Ron Eddins
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And as far as what god said were you there or are you a victim of the
colonized indoctrinated mindset. But to each there own.
Manage
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· 4d
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[image: Creole Queen]
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Creole Queen
<
https://www.facebook.com/creole.queen.961?fref=gc&dti=395292953933033> Smh
🤦🏾♀️ anyone leaving the group please add me
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· 4d
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[image: Joshua Myrick]
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Joshua Myrick
<
https://www.facebook.com/mystic.blessing?fref=gc&dti=395292953933033> How
do you end a debate? With ignorance.
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· 4d
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[image: Joshua Myrick]
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Joshua Myrick
<
https://www.facebook.com/mystic.blessing?fref=gc&dti=395292953933033> Can't
block me here.
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· 4d
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[image: Joshua Myrick]
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Joshua Myrick
<
https://www.facebook.com/mystic.blessing?fref=gc&dti=395292953933033> Should
I share the messages or would you like to? Know you are intellectually daft
and the position you present lacks facts but instead expresses your
ignorance. Private message me again after you understand your own history.
Manage
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· 4d
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[image: Joshua Myrick]
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Joshua Myrick
<
https://www.facebook.com/mystic.blessing?fref=gc&dti=395292953933033> May
Orunmila impart knowledge wisdom and understanding to you. Have an awesome
day.
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· 4d
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[image: Creole Queen]
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Creole Queen
<
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Myrick
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the
person you’re arguing with must have me blocked 😂
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· 4d
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[image: Joshua Myrick]
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Joshua Myrick
<
https://www.facebook.com/mystic.blessing?fref=gc&dti=395292953933033> It
is a sign of truth beginning to enter a confused mind.
Manage
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· 4d
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[image: Joshua Myrick]
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Joshua Myrick
<
https://www.facebook.com/mystic.blessing?fref=gc&dti=395292953933033> It
will hit him eventually give him time he seems young.
Manage
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· 4d
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[image: Oluwatoyin Vincent Adepoju]
Write a reply...
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[image: Burton Lewis]
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Burton Lewis
<
https://www.facebook.com/burton.lewis1?fref=gc&dti=395292953933033> Has
anyone consulted Orunmilla on this, to comment without consulting If a is
premature at best and absurd at worst!
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· 3d
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[image: Àdísà Àjàmú]
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Àdísà Àjàmú <
https://www.facebook.com/iwapele?fref=gc&dti=395292953933033> I
find the debate masturbatory. There are a few points I wish to put forward
in debate I find disingenuous and historically vapid:
1) Bascom is not a good example of white folks contributing to African
culture or its appreciation. Rather Bascom is illustrative of the ways in
which white supremacy has privileged the rape of African knowledge for its
benefit.
Bascom is just the academic version of a European museum “curator” of
stolen African artifacts.
Moreover there strong indications that Bascom was on the CIA’s payroll like
many anthropologist and colonial administrators of the day.
Second to the person who get the award for the most historically obtuse
comment of 2019–it is not possible intellectually or mathematically for a
person in Rwanda to have experienced more violence during the Rwandan
genocide than a people in system predicated in violence experienced in 400
years. That, to put it politely, is stooopid.
Third, anyone using the term afroamerican in 2019 is disqualified from
thoughtful commentary on African ( Americans) on the grounds of culturally
illiteracy.
Oluwatoyin Vincent Adepoju, im surprised at your reach here in the cause of
support for fictive unity, that privileged white supremacy in an effort to
advance a unity rooted in cultural, political, social and human violence
Would not a better argument been the contributions that Africans have made
towards shedding light on the ancient roots of western civilization, for
which there is literally centuries worth of archival evidence, as evidence
that it is Africans who have aided the westerners in their understanding of
their culture.
4
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· 3d
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· Edited
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[image: Charly Barbera]
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Charly Barbera
<
https://www.facebook.com/charly.barbera?fref=gc&dti=395292953933033> I
think it’s incredibly important to debate difficult subjects, especially
those that carry the burden of oppression
Even if one gets offended, it’s a step forward towards true dialogue.
But it goes nowhere if one doesn’t truly listen to the other and through
critical thought, evaluates ones own beliefs.
Continuing to parrot what you’d like to believe keeps you in a state of
ignorance and divides humanity
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· 3d
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[image: Royal Guy Brown]
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Royal Guy Brown
<
https://www.facebook.com/royal.brown.7399?fref=gc&dti=395292953933033> Before
you get too lost in the Colonization and disrespect for this indiginious
African tradition. Remember too that before the Christians came the
Muslems. Even as many of us are Christians and practice Islam. The power of
Ifa is it's survivability.My trust lies with Orunmila. In my journey I have
worked with whites blacks and Hispanics. And have witnessed all groups
being mounted by Orisha and or Egun. I believe that there is a reason for
Ifa, especially in this current world with a racist in the white house.
Ogun once assisted our ancestors in Haiti from their white oppressors.
Whose to say how or why Orunmila and the Orisha want to move in this world,
or what the ultimate plan is. I also feel possessive when it comes to Ifa.
I also know very deeply that it is a higher form of spirituality than Islam
Judaism or Christianity. But I am not threatened by whites. There done the
best they could to destroy this belief system. The whites that have done
research, written books or received initiations in Africa themselves are,
to me, part of the needed break down and through the poisionous wall built
by these three institutions.
In other words. If I have to accept an African American calling my religion
devil worship. Then why can I not accept a white man who just might be
reaching out to join me with respect and even love for my blessed spiritual
path.
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· 3d
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