Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Muhammed's Koran and Salman Rushdie's The Satanic Verses: A Comparative Reading
DR SIKIRU ENIOLA
--Will this not pass for blasphemy?
From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com <usaafric...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Oluwatoyin Adepoju <ovde...@gmail.com>
Date: Tuesday, August 16, 2022 at 2:04 PM
To: usaafricadialogue <usaafric...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Muhammed's Koran and Salman Rushdie's The Satanic Verses: A Comparative Reading
Muhammed's Koran and Salman Rushdie's The Satanic Verses
A Comparative Reading
Oluwatoyin Vincent Adepoju
Comparative Cognitive Processes and Systems
“Exploring Every Corner of the Cosmos in Search of Knowledge”
Two authors, two books. One, Muhammed, claims divine inspiration, another, Rushdie, claims inspiration perhaps from his own creative powers. Both books are described as being in opposition.
This an effort to slowly read both books and learn from them in a comparative manner.
1. The Koran.
Surah al Fatiha. The Opening.
In the name of Allah, the Entirely Merciful, the Especially Merciful.
Praise be to Allah, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the Worlds.
Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
Master of the Day of Judgement.
You we worship, Your aid we seek.
Show us the Straight Way.
The Path of those on whom you have bestowed your grace
not of those who have inspired your anger
those who have gone astray.
Composite rendering from translations by Saheeh International, Abdullah Yusuf Alli, Sayyid Abdul A la Mawdudi, as trans. by Zafar Ishaq Ansari, with some modifications by myself that do not change the content.
This opening needs to be listened to in powerful Koranic chanting to be adequately appreciated, even if one does not understand the language in which the chanting is uttered. Superb examples can be got online, with YouTube being a primary source.
The vocal rendering dramatizes with poignant force what it means to commit oneself to belief in a transcendent reality of all pervasive force, one way of describing the divine identity the opening salutes.
Travelling a long distance, parched with thirst, I came at last upon an oasis in the dry wilderness, a gleam of life in the deadly desert. Long prayer, month after month, sustained me in that cave, until the nourishing waters poured through. Voices in coming millennia will ask if I heard a divine voice or an imaginary one. The best I can do is testify.
So Muhammed may be imagined as testifying, using imagery of travelling in a desert, to the experience that led him to compose those opening lines which perhaps a countless number of people chant today in following his example.
Does Allah exist? Do any of the various conceptions of a creator and sustainer of the universe have any reality apart from the beliefs of those who hold those views?
I don’t know.
How may one find out?
Perhaps by following the practices of those who hold such beliefs.
Does that mean that one must believe to know? I doubt it.
2. The Satanic Verses
Epigraph
Satan, being thus confined to a vagabond, wandering, unsettled condition, is without any certain abode; for though he has, in consequence of his angelic nature, a kind of empire in the liquid waste or air, yet this is certainly part of his punishment, that he is . . . without any fixed place, or space, allowed him to rest the sole of his foot upon.
Daniel Defoe, The History of the Devil
A description of Satan, the primary adversary of God, as described in the Bible. An angel, formerly lofty in heaven, but now homeless.
Does Satan exist?
I don’t know.
Rushdie is a fiction writer, not a self-described prophet like Muhammed, so where could be going with this?
The unfolding drama of his first chapter should reveal that.
''Self described'' refers to Muhammed's self description, accepted by his followers. Some claim fiction writers may also be prophets but they often do not describe themselves that way.
Can both descriptions have value?
Muhammed was certainly a prophet, because he testified to values beyond the scope of most human beings.
Whether or not a particular imaginative writer is also a prophet may depend on how one interprets the depth of their message.
The creative sensitivities of both authors are evident in those contrastive openings.
This is so even though the openings refer to two total opposites, the creator of the universe and his former lieutenant, now turned rebel, Satan.
These spiritual identities occur in the same religious universe, the Abrahamic tradition represented by Judaism, Christianity and Islam.
Muhammed's own Koranic lines come through his own verbal expression, though attributed to divine inspiration.
Those of Rushdie are a quote from another writer, but a quote dramatizing powerful imagistic resonance, potent visual force, a vivid evocation of a tragic state.
Clearly, we have here two masters in the art of language, vivifying for us an invisible universe, since neither the creator of the universe or Satan are known as visible entities.
Muhammed projects this vivification through ideational rhythm, a musical balance of ideas, between mercy and wrath, between cosmic creativity and sensitivity to the individual human petitioner, the entire sequence shot through by profound emotional force in the face of the ultimate arbiter of existence, its creator, sustainer and judge.
Rushdie's quote from Daniel Defoe, on the other hand, is also elevated in ideational evocation, lifting the mind to engage the material world, air and other elements, in relation to a mighty but tragic spiritual identity, a creative projection scintillating in its expansion of the mind's imaginative force, its capacity to ''see'' through thought, but the picture generated is one meant to inspire caution and repellence, not identification, as in the Koranic opening.
Two authors, separated by centuries, by very different personalities and histories, in very different parts of the world, but both engaging similar subjects from very different angles.
Where is each of them going with this?
Background to this Post
''Everyone, Muslims and Non-Muslims, Should Read Salman Rushdie's Satanic Verses'', Oluwatoyin Vincent Adepoju
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Cornelius Hamelberg
Compared with the Quran, there's no choice other than 100% agreement with what you say about Rushdie's extended phantasmagorical nonsense
Just a short question.
By the same yardstick, regarding Sacred Texts, what do we have to say about Dante’s Divine Comedy?
Should a fatwa carrying or recommending the death penalty be passed on him, his publishers, distributors and readers, currently and posthumously?
In the modern world, what is supposed to be the fate of what’s perceived as satirical, ireverential, blasphemous, anti-religious fiction, or poetry, music, drama, art, outside the jurisdiction of the thought-police and e.g. the Ayatollahs?
Must we always have to argue with a madman?
Perhaps, whilst you are at it Sir, you could take a little time out to answer the question WHAT MAKES ISLAM SO DIFFERENT
Harrow, Kenneth
kenneth harrow
professor emeritus
dept of english
michigan state university
Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2022 5:54 AM
To: USA Africa Dialogue Series <usaafric...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Muhammed's Koran and Salman Rushdie's The Satanic Verses: A Comparative Reading
Harrow, Kenneth
kenneth harrow
professor emeritus
dept of english
michigan state university
Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2022 7:33 AM
Cornelius Hamelberg
We are all human beings, and partake of human nature: al-Insan al-Kamil, Imam Ali, Magdalena Andersson, Aristotle, Joe Biden, Buddha, Muhammadu Buhari, Jesus, Xi Jinping, Boris Johnson, Mao, Golda Meir, Moses, Plato, Putin, Wallace Stevens, the Sweden Democrats, Bola Tinubu, Liz Truss…
The original question was,
“ Today it is Rushdie. tomorrow, who?”
The pavlovian Islamic reaction guarantees that there will not be several Rushdie types in the near future. Muslims respect their Prophet just as the people of Japan respect their Emperor and the people of Thailand respect their King. Rushdie doesn't need a fatwa on his head in order to understand that Japan and Thailand would not tolerate any disrespect. Nor would he go on a goodwill mission to Saudi Arabia with " The Satanic Verses" along with a few bottles of Chivas in his cabin luggage.
Rushdie exclusively represents the written & published and widely distributed word that belongs to the literary / story-telling world. What about the more spontaneous, local word in a not so widely spoken tongue that erupts in the middle of an argument and the reaction - that “Justice delayed, is justice denied”?
The fact is that in Nigeria, street justice took its course, just a few months ago when Deborah Samuel was summarily executed for alleged blasphemy by an angry student mob comprising her fellow students. It is still not clear which law in Nigeria appointed her fellow students legal judges and executioners. Have they since then been tried for the murder that they committed?
In the case of Rushdie, we can imagine another course of action whereby Rushdie could have been kidnapped ( the way that Umaru Dikko was almost kidnapped) and flown to Tehran, Mashad or Qom where he would have been tried not by a Kangaroo court composed of incensed mullahs flaring at the nostrils, but by an even more competent Islamic juridical authority, found guilty (a preordained conclusion) and summarily executed for blasphemy, by a firing squad or by hanging ( like Saddam).
In his own defence, if instead of repenting he still had the courage to be defiant, of course, he would say that the crime was committed in Merry England and that the Ayatollahs, therefore, had no jurisdiction - in response to which the Mullahs would tell him to STFU and kindly remind him that the whole earth belongs to Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala, and that Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala is everywhere and doesn’t like His prophets and saints being mocked by miscreants…
Oluwatoyin Adepoju
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Harrow, Kenneth
kenneth harrow
professor emeritus
dept of english
michigan state university
Sent: Thursday, August 18, 2022 10:32 AM
To: usaafric...@googlegroups.com <usaafric...@googlegroups.com>
Oluwatoyin Adepoju
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Cornelius Hamelberg
In this day and age, under what status does e.g Holocaust Denial fall according to the Mille Collines rule?
This happened just the other day: In what category does Mahmoud Abbas belong when he accuses Israel of having committed 50 Holocausts ?
This has almost certainly made Abbas a persona non grata in today’s Germany.
Should that kind of accusation not be criminalised or should Mahmoud Abbas’ “courage'' be supported and defended? (Just asking. Ignoramus would like to know. )
Today, we have six to seven-year-olds who have memorised the entirety of the Holy Quran. Iran has produced a few such prodigies.
As far as I’m concerned, it’s only a miscreant and mischief-maker like Rushdie who you sympathise with as “ a troubled character uncertain in his faith” that would have created a quite diabolic character in his “ The Satanic Verses” and have him play the role of a scribe who jots down each revelation that’s recited to him by the Prophet of Islam, Sallallahu alaihi wa salaam, and then at a later date cunningly changes the wording of the revelations that were recited to him and in his wildest imagination set to words on paper and print, have the Prophet of Islam not notice these subtle changes.
We know that Zayd ibn Thabit is the name of Rasulullah’s trustworthy scribe. We also know as I read on page 119 of Al Rasa’el last night that Ali Ibn Abi Talib alaihi salaam, was “At all times he accompanied the Prophet to help and protect him from his enemies. He wrote down the verses of the Holy Koran and discussed them with the Prophet as soon as they were revealed.”He devoted all his life in the service of God for the welfare of humanity. He is known as the personification of justice, wisdom, courage, humbleness, kindness, generosity, eloquence and knowledge”
You may not be that interested in what you have every right to regard as ahistoric or as variant versions of Islamic hagiography, but at the height of the fatwa crisis, there were critics who thought that the most peaceful way forward for distraught Muslims could have been to present historic facts m, side by side with Rusgdie’s troubled fiction, as corrections
Cornelius Hamelberg
PS
Strictly speaking, a fatwa after all is just an advisory opinion, such as the once upon time fatwa on tobacco.
Since the 1988 Fatwa has been recalled and therefore fallen into desuetude, it remains mainly as symbolic disapproval.
Even if a fatwa had been passed on Christopher Hitchens offering a billion barrels of oil for his head being brought to some grand mufti - just as the head of John the Baptist was brought on a platter to King Herod - at the request of Salome, in Hitchen's case, for his book “God is Not Great” - a direct negation of the pan-Islamic “ Allahu Akbar”, until or unless such a fatwa was actually executed, the fatwa would remain mostly symbolic-. In the case of the Fatawa on Rushdie’s head ( and on the heads of the publishers and distributors ) Iran was viewed at the time as the world's foremost champion of Islam and the Prophet’s honour.
Here is an Islamic scholar sounding off on the recent attack on Rushdie, who, luckily survived the attack. All wellwishers wish him a speedy recovery
On a much lighter mood: Consuelate
Harrow, Kenneth
kenneth harrow
professor emeritus
dept of english
michigan state university
Cornelius Hamelberg
Blasphemy Laws in Muslim Countries
Back then: Ahmed Deedat on The Satanic Verses
Hopefully, someone here with hindsight and foresight, can answer this question: Why was the attack on Rushdie allowed to take place on American soil and why did it happen so many years after the fatwa had been withdrawn? Fate? Predestination?
A good place to begin : MEMRI: Reactions to the attack on Salman Rushdie
After the attack; Hundreds of writers including Paul Auster at a New York event in support of Salman Rushdie
Do I believe in freedom of speech? You decide. I should have responded to Don Harrow’s Parthian shot on Friday afternoon except that I was well on the way to Muskö to some peace and quiet over the holy weekend.
I’m still musing over what the always optimistic Rosling said, that we in the affluent West should stop thinking of ourselves as normal ( suffering or shuffering from normalcy) and at the same time go on believing/suffering from the illusion that everyone else is not normal.
Of course, it is not a matter of libel and slander, defamation of character etc, to think that someone is abnormal, is ordinary like me, is not a real prophet etc, even if that someone has two billion disciples in fact, who are prepared to shed your blood if you as much as make the wrong move. In the meantime, this is what happens with an ordinary hero known as the average Joe.
I have just zapped through Jonathan Cook's lamentations about his cherub, Assange - Julian Assange the international gossipmonger who could have sparked off a few wars here and there by his irresponsible, irrepressible and reprehensible information leaks, certainly raising the temperature between Iran and Saudi Arabia by his leak about the Saudis appeal to the Wild West to "cut off the head of the snake", and by “snake”, some would say that the Saudis, not exactly holy guardian angels themselves, were ignominiously and treacherously referring to their fellow Muslims and rivals, the Islamic Republic of Iran. At least Edward Snowden never made that kind of mischief, or imagined himself a world statesman, like Assange, granting interviews from the balcony of the Ecuadorian embassy where he was holed up for eight long years…
Whilst at it, for balance and to add some flavour to his sauce, Jonathan Cook could have also taken up John Bolton's recent confessions about Uncle Sam's Pinocchio nose in every pie and almost every detestable coup d'etat in the world and every loving embrace of every favoured / special dictator in the world, not to mention more profiteering with the gunrunning and extensive financial letters of credit to folks like Zelensky, whilst the poor people in the USA are still mourning with Stevie Wonder in Village Ghetto Land and Pastime Paradise
Professor Harrow, I guess it's OK to be talking about "Jewish traditions" of arguing with God. In the "New Testament", so-called, we witness Jesus disputing with the devil during his 40 days of fasting and temptations in the wilderness, but Judaism is not Islam; Islam has its own traditions and adab - and yes there’s the occasion when the Prophet of Islam Sallallahu alaihi wa salaam - during the Miraj does not “ argue” but humbly pleads with the Almighty and the daily prayers were reduced from fifty to five daily prayers
Photo taken on Friday afternoon at Muskö, about a hundred yards from our abode.
We ought to be sensitive to Islamic sensibilities; ridiculing and assaulting Islam is not the same as criticising Islam; the Spinoza that's being referred to did not ridicule Judaism, whether or not from a more orthodox point of view he blasphemed the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and was therefore excommunicated, so to speak, seems to me a different matter altogether.
With reference to the Fatwa on Rushdie, we ought not to forget or relegate the status of literature, and the contributions of Persian Literature, poetry, religion and philosophy to Iranian and world Civilisation….Some Ahmad Shamlou
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DR SIKIRU ENIOLA
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Harrow, Kenneth
kenneth harrow
professor emeritus
dept of english
michigan state university
Cornelius Hamelberg
Professor Harrow and others who may believe in unbridled freedom of speech, artsy-fartsy art expression etc. could you possibly imagine an exhibition such as Ecce Homo - God forbid - being held, say in Israel - in Tel Aviv or San Francisco, USA, representing someone purported to be the Prophet of Islam, Sallallahu Alayhi wa salaam, without any dire consequences? From the Pan-Islamic point of view, the fatwa on Rushdie would pale in comparison with what would befall that artist, and relations with the country that would have permitted such a transgression.
The world is still round but the age of enlightenment did not impact all four corners of the globe at the same time. What effect did man landing on the moon have on the Hindu religious concept of Chandra, for example? The moon, as poetic imagery? The Moon is a symbol of al-Islam.
Exodus 12:2, the first law that was given to the nation of Israel. The sun and moon by which we tell time down here on mother earth.
Well, the sixteenth-century Protestant Reformation did not touch the Eastern Orthodox church either. I propose what promises to be an instant fruitful dialogue of understanding between this position and Professor Harrow’s in this thread and elsewhere.
As we know, in the still rational age, the 22nd century post-enlightenment age of scientific enquiry continues to have devastating effects on some people’s religious beliefs, although, despite the mistaken and misunderstood notion that, “God is dead” there’s the popular saying, still in circulation, still a part of the rapidly being discarded, trounced and denounced Western Civilisation - of which Sir Ahmed Salam Rushdie - decorated by the UK’s & the British Commonwealth’s Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth 11, and, not least of all the prelates of the Church of England are fully aware, to wit, that “ God is not mocked”
Whereas in Shia Islam Ijtihad is of the essence, the current understanding is that in Sunni Islam, the gates of Ijtihad were closed about twelve hundred years ago. There’s also the pervasive understanding that in Shia Islam the mystical element/ Irfan is so strong that more or less a separate so-called school of Sufism could be nothing short of the superfluous. “Sufism” is therefore mostly a phenomenon found in Sunni Islam
All things considered, methinks, we ought to read Dr Sikiru’s submission a little more closely.
I’m puzzled by the “common ground” of which you speak and which you seek. Indeed, how common is this ground?
Professor Harrow says, “rushie speaks with the voice of itjihad, of innovation. read him closely and you'lll agree he speaks with a moral voice about decency, freedom, creaativity etc., and follows the paths of many like rumi for whom intoxication with the divine or spiritual animates his art.”
Whaaat?!!!!? Do you mention Hafez, Rumi, Attar and Rush-D in the same breath? How dare you!
Please excuse my possible misuse of this freedom of speech, but really, who the hell wants to read Rushdie, “closely”? I’ve done that once already, and that was my second reading of his “ The Satanic Verse”, one reading too many after the fatwa proclaiming the death penalty was passed on him and his publishers. And who the hell wants to “read him closely” in search of him - as you say, speaking “ with a moral voice about decency, freedom, creativity”. Really? Where?? Where does the egomaniac son of spunk speak with such a voice, apart from when striving to save his own ass/ skin as in the master of irony’s The Latest Decalogue - i.e.
“Thou shalt not kill, but need'st not strive.
Officiously to keep alive”
Never mind pulling at the Sufi's heartstrings with the mention of Mansur Al-Hallaj who, like Jesus, was crucified for saying “ I am the Truth”.
Bayazid Bastami on the other hand was not ( crucified)
As for the miscreant , if he had been a resident of Iran when he wrote and published his “The Satanic Verses” - abroad, he would have been dead meat long ago as the following verse of the Quran, Al-Ma'idah ayat 33 would have come into effect automatically :
“Indeed, the penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and spread mischief in the land is death, crucifixion, cutting off their hands and feet on opposite sides, or exile from the land. This ˹penalty˺ is a disgrace for them in this world, and they will suffer a tremendous punishment in the Hereafter.”
This evening all roads lead to the Concert House in Stockholm where the Orchestra Baobab will be entertaining
Cornelius Hamelberg
Dear Sir and dear fellow Muslim sympathiser,
As the saying goes, let us be prepared to go as he or she who goes furthest in this matter.
This is no secondary matter. It’s a matter of common decency, not hypocrisy and double standards. We know the importance of the mother in Islam.
The Quran states “The wives of the Prophet are like your mothers” ( - i-e deserving of your respect)
With this understanding, who in his right mind and in good conscience should not react when Rushdie in his "The Satanic Verses", dives into the lowest immoral pit by actually placing the wives of the Prophet of Islam, sallallahu alaihi wa salaam in a whorehouse/ brothel? ????
In 1989, In "How Salman Rushdie Fooled the West", Ahmed Deedat takes up other items of rudeness liberally scattered throughout magnum opus, " The Satanic Verses"
Harrow, Kenneth
kenneth harrow
professor emeritus
dept of english
michigan state university
Sent: Monday, August 22, 2022 11:35 AM
Harrow, Kenneth
kenneth harrow
professor emeritus
dept of english
michigan state university
Sent: Monday, August 22, 2022 11:35 AM
To: USA Africa Dialogue Series <usaafric...@googlegroups.com>
Cornelius Hamelberg
Dear Kenneth,
It was a wonderful evening with Orchestra Baobab. Sat in the second row with the .V.I.Ps
You must have seen them many times in Senegal.
Obviously, this brothel business of Rushdie’s is a fulfilment of these lines by Literature Nobel Laureate Dylan:
“And if my thought-dreams could be seen.
They'd probably put my head in a guillotine”
Perhaps, there’s the same confusion about Jesus walking on water as reported in the Gospels according to Matthew and the Gospel according to Mark.
Whereas some critics have pointed out that this was Peter, dreaming, preacher man insists that Jesus actually walked on water.
Some Hindus enumerate walking on water as a Siddhi that can be acquired by advanced yogis.
Another siddhi is levitation. There are many different siddhis. Maybe, unbeknownst to us, Rudi Guiliani has some secret siddhis that we have never heard about. How do we know that he hasn’t? It could be an epistemological problem. Likewise, for all we know the miscreant Rushdie could be shuffering from demon-possession, the kind of demon that does his wudu with his urine and is in dire need of some exorcism.
Preacherman also says that “ Faith can move mountains” ( mountains of problems)
“ And Jesus was a sailor when he walked upon the water” ( Leonard Cohen)
With e.g. “Jesus Christ Superstar “ in mind, are there any Rushdie-like problems to be anticipated in e.g. African cinema? ( A death fatwa on the actors and the producer. Maybe blow up the whole theatre and the audience therein. Thy kingdom come , Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Send them all to hell directly, with a one-way ticket. And don’t ever let them come back here.
Re - your footnote:
How does
Yambo Ouologuem : Bound to Violence
compare with
Ayi Kwei Armah : Two Thousand Seasons
Harrow, Kenneth
kenneth harrow
professor emeritus
dept of english
michigan state university
Harrow, Kenneth
kenneth harrow
professor emeritus
dept of english
michigan state university
Cornelius Hamelberg
Dear Kenneth,
I have always thought that compared to many other Muslim places - e.g Afghanistan, Senegal is a relatively much “free-er” society - and that the women are a lot “ free-er”, perhaps, because the Wolof woman, just like the Kalabari woman, is not subjected to the controversial FGM.
But, that’s very good news coming from Senegal, that the Tijanis or the Mourides ( maybe both?) took on the mantle of guardians and protectors of morality in Senegal, saw it as their religious duty to prevent the promotion/ dissemination of lesbian cinema in the country and that this happened before the Obama era. Some of my Senegalese brothers are still so pissed with apostle Obama’s 2013 visit to Senegal, in which his main message was that Senegal should legalese homosexuality and lesbianism. Did he fly all the way from the White House in Washington D.C to Gorée to deliver this low blow to the moral fabric of Senegalese Civilisation? Not that homosexuality and lesbianism don’t exist on the quiet ( Baba Kadiri will probably say that the decadence was imported from France as part of their cultural assimilation policy ) but to legalise it, give it equal rights with the heterosexuality of our forefathers and mothers in Amadou Bamba and Cheikh Anta Diop country? The gumption. Who does the miscreant Barack Hussein Obama think that he really is? Was?
I have tracked the movie down : Karmen Geï ) 1 hour and 22 minutes - will probably have to skip the boring and haram pornographic bits). Apparently, it caused quite a splash, at the time. Fast forward, is there now an official censorship board in Senegal, and if so, could the film now pass the litmus test? Would it be banned in Tunisia? Nigeria?
Whilst in London earlier this month one of my close relatives said that she had attended a lesbian wedding the previous day ( a quite pagan ceremony) between a director of prison and one of the prison wardens there - as we discussed the matter, the brilliant lawyer among us said that the relationship could lead to a conflict of interests - possible - hypothetical scenarios with regard to taking disciplinary measures ( nepotism not being the order of the day when it comes to law enforcement in Merry England)
The Muslim Who Fought French Colonialism Through Non-ViolenceBEST OF MBALAX 2020
Cornelius Hamelberg
Still on the matter of censorship - let’s move on to the censorship of advocacy e.g. the advocacy of gay rights which Barack Obama did in Goree, Senegal, his emphasis that all men are equal, not that some men and women are more equal than others, before the law, sort of ignoring the role that culture and deep-seated tradition play in this matter of gay rights. And of course, in Senegal, I daresay on the issue of Islam and gay rights, the message of Islam trumps the message and recommendations of Barack Hussein Obama. The fact is, that Mr Obama’s recommendations could not possibly be implemented overnight just because he believes himself to be the persuasive voice of justice and reason. The country would have to be prepared for the transition to the new reality over a period of time. The country would have to be educated to not merely tolerate or accept but also to respect “ La Difference ''. The glorification of LGBT would not sit well with Senegal’s imams, the various Sufi brotherhoods and the general laity. Right now, things are perfect, the way they think that they are supposed to be….
LGBT composers in classical music historyThere’s also medicine, science and technology, art, popular music, theatre, cinema, business, sports…
After hitting the send button to dispatch my last post, I realised that I could have opened a raw nerve and was treading on dangerous ground - as in “ tread softly because you tread on my dreams” that the mood should be more of - as the Lord commanded Moses - instead of which - no laughing matter, dear Moses HIT the rock - just as I hit the send button -the same lesson to be learned by all of us the angry ones:
The Lord spoke to Moses, saying:
“Take the staff and assemble the congregation, you and your brother Aaron, and speak to the rock in their presence so that it will give forth its water. You shall bring forth water for them from the rock and give the congregation and their livestock to drink.”
Moses took the staff from before the Lord as He had commanded him.
Moses and Aaron assembled the congregation in front of the rock, and he said to them, "Now listen, you rebels, can we draw water for you from this rock?”
Moses raised his hand and struck the rock with his staff twice when an abundance of water gushed forth, and the congregation and their livestock drank
The Lord said to Moses and Aaron, "Since you did not have faith in Me to sanctify Me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore you shall not bring this assembly to the Land which I have given them.”
These are the waters of dispute [Mei Meribah] where the children of Israel contended with the Lord, and He was sanctified through them
Nowadays, same-sex marriages are being celebrated in some churches and some synagogues. For me, it’s difficult to envisage this happening in the world of al-Islam, in any mosque in Saudi Arabia, Iran or Somailiaany days soon, even if Joe Biden or his predecessor Barack Obama were to fly over to Saudi Arabia, Iran or Somalia to advocate the legalisation of LGBT. Can anyone here imagine Donald Trump having the temerity to fly over to Goree in Senegal to tell the people there to legalise it? Shit? Of course, Trump would never do that - and Obama, seen here bowing to the Saudi King, wouldn’t dare to fly over to Saudi Arabia or Iran or Somalia to tell them to “legalise” LGBT. So why does he fly over to Senegal to deliver such a message? The reason. His love for a brother nation
That “Pride Sabbath” was celebrated in many places: should come as no surprise, since there are gay rabbis and possibly gay rabbits too. Considering all that Paul has said about homosexuality if he were to resurrect and be with us right now to observe what’s going on, he would probably experience a second death - as he himself has said, “ I die daily”. Jesus on the other hand has already said “ Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone!”
Senegal: Mbalax 2019
Harrow, Kenneth
kenneth harrow
professor emeritus
dept of english
michigan state university
Cornelius Hamelberg
All the points made by Kenneth Harrow could be taken seriously, sympathetically, without inflicting any harm on others or on the various societies, but when he says, that he has "no doubts progressive muslims can be found who also support gay rights and who can quote scripture to justify this", I believe that that kind of wishful thinking/ daydreaming has to be taken with a nip of salt.
I do not believe that any so-called “progressive Muslims” can quote any Islamic scriptures to justify or exonerate homosexuality. Maybe, such odd fellows can quote neo-Islamic scriptures of their own concoction and call the new religions " Homosexualism", " Lesbianism" and "Transgenderism" and adopt Allen Ginsberg’s Footnote to Howl as one of their main scriptures.
On the contrary, we are to expect extreme hostility, not least of all from the likes of Sheikh Yasser Habib who has his own tough scripture-based views on homosexuality
As we ramble and rumble on about these matters we ought not to forget the main issue in this thread and what Kenneth has said so far seems to tally with what’s written here about the attack on Sir Ahmed Salman Rushdie
Harrow, Kenneth
kenneth harrow
professor emeritus
dept of english
michigan state university
Cornelius Hamelberg
“more than half (52%) of American Muslims agreed that "society should approve of homosexuality."
First reaction :
From a Muslim point of view, it’s not a matter of what society approves, it’s a matter of what Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala/ God approves.
By “society”, I assume they mean American society not the worldwide community of Muslims known as the Ummah al-Islam
Everything is possible in the United States of America - the First Church of Satan in San Francisco , paedophile priests, hanky-panky with Monica Lewinsky and Bill Clinton’s Cuban Cigar, in the Oval Office, in Washington DC.
USA: When so-called US-certified Muslim leaders start legally conducting same-sex weddings in Mosques in the USA, one can only conclude that this is definitively one of the many sure signs that we are living in the last days !
Out of curiosity, I Googled this : Nation of Islam on LGBT
I would say the efforts are commendable, if the work was carried out as a social service outside of a religious context, nothing to do with prayer, mosques, condemnation, sins, haram etc…and nothing with the falsisfication/s of faith, the message of Islam - for example, the Muslim does ghusl after sexual intercourse before doing his salat at home or entering a mosque to pray. The mosque too is a holy place…
The sentence that begins with “A growing number of Islamic scholars, mainly in the West '' and all that follows in that trajectory is suspect - inevitably suspect of more uncle-tom-foolery by Islamic stooges who are being nicely brainwashed by their hosts in the interest of the Americanisation / coco-cola-i-zation of al-Islam. And of course, Professor Harrow would be the first standing in line to tell us about contextualisation, that wherever Islam goes, has gone, or went, Islam acquires or adapts to some local colour - so that there’s a Senegalese Islam, and a Nigerian Islam even if both follow Maliki fiqh.
And if Islam were to have taken over Sodom and Gomorrah - a rather bizarre extreme case to be sure, something like the MECCA Institute would have miraculously popped up to grant some accommodation, to show some love, compromise, compassion and understanding - and to even to argue with the Merciful Almighty about their ultimate doom in that one-time incident according to the Holy Bible.
Re - The Americanisation of Islam. Try this for size when it comes to conspiracy theories: Mossad 'likely' behind Salman Rushdie stabbing, claims Denver professor
There are many exhortations in the Quran which begin with “ O mankind” , emphasising the unity of humankind and of uttermost relevance here, Surah Al-Hujurat, ayat 13:
“O mankind! Lo! We have created you male and female, and have made you nations and tribes that ye may know one another. Lo! the noblest of you, in the sight of Allah, is the best in conduct. Lo! Allah is Knower, Aware.”
Whether we like it or not, It goes without saying, that the main reality that we have to contend with is that there are genuine LGBT people throughout humanity - and if we are to believe in what the Quran says, these males and females were created by God and that includes all nations, races, tribes, sub-tribes, religiously speaking, the Animists, Buddhists, Christians, Hindus, Idolaters, Jews, Monotheists, Pagans, Polytheists, and of course the various Muslim/ Islamic sections of humanity, as well as - from a - to z, the antisemites, those suffering from homophobia, islamophobia, and noxious racism…
So how does Islam and its various branches deal with the reality that circa 5% of the faithful are LGBT which is not a “disease” because they were either born that way - fitra - or were/are being influenced by local/ global environment and other cultural factors?
Since it is not a “disease/ illness”, the idea of corrective therapy/ deprogramming is out of the question. ( I remember that sometime in the early 1970s in Sweden an irresponsible someone had diagnosed homosexuality as an illness - the reaction was that on the following day, en masse gay people called in to report at their various work places to report that they were ill and could therefore not go to work “today”. The diagnosis “ illness” was retracted in less than 24 hours.
I think that I have reported to this forum how, once upon a time, as I was sitting on her bed beside her and the devil was whispering in my ear “ go ahead and seduce her” I was on the brink of wanting to “convert” a certain Carol - an Afro-American sister who was a captain in the US army? But I remembered just in the nick of time, how she had verbally mishandled a buddy of mine Tommy Powell (circa 197 cm tall, from Oakland, California) just a few hours earlier…
Islam’s LGBTQ people ought not to be ostracised - from mosques or communities and that’s precisely what happens when they form/are constituted into separate special needs communities.
In Senegal and India are they not a part and parcel of their various Islamic communities ( Not getting same-sex married in mosques, of course)? Of more pressing concern: LGBT in Muslim Nigeria
From experience, one knows that one does not have to believe everything that turns up in print, so, for verification and clarity I had to Google what popped up in your link: ”Ayatollah Khomeini declared transgender surgical operations allowable”
Harrow, Kenneth
Homosexuality has never been criminalised in Benin, Burkina Faso, Ivory Coast, Democratic Republic of the Congo, Djibouti, Equatorial Guinea, Madagascar, Mali, Niger, and Rwanda. It has been decriminalised in Angola, Botswana, Cape Verde, Gabon, Guinea-Bissau, Lesotho, Mozambique, São Tomé and Príncipe, the Seychelles and South Africa. South Africa was the fifth country in the world to legalize same-sex marriage in November of 2006. LGBT anti-discrimination laws exist in seven African countries: Angola, Botswana, Cape Verde, Mauritius, Mozambique, Seychelles, and South Africa.
kenneth harrow
professor emeritus
dept of english
michigan state university
Cornelius Hamelberg
Of possible interest:
Serbia cancels EuroPride event
Saudi Arabia says no to UN Convention rewriting the law of nature, rejects CEDAW
Posted on December 28, 2021 by Editor in General News, Global, Islam, News
Adel Al-Jubeir, Minister of State for Foreign Affairs, Kingdom of Saudi Arabia: Announces Saudi's declaration rejecting United Nations document pretending to fight discrimination against women.
By KEMI KASUMU
The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia (KSA) has declared its rejection of a United Nations document that, in totality, rewrites the book of life pretending to fight discrimination against women – Convention on Elimination of Discrimination Against Women (CEDAW).
The Kingdom, according to its Minister of State for Foreign Affairs, Adel Al-Jubeir, made the televised declaration as shown in a video posted on ksa-wats.com and picked by The DEFENDER Newspaper Nigeria on Tuesday.
According to the website, “Minister of State for Foreign Affairs Adel Al-Jubeir stated that Saudi Arabia declares its rejection of the United Nations document and its non-compliance with the rights of homosexuality, adultery, immorality and contentment with the provisions of Sharia.”
Unfortunately, though, some Arab countries have begun to agree to the CEDAW agreement believed to be “devilish" being that it rewrites the law of nature and completely redirects humanity from obedience to the one and only author of manual of the world and syllabus of ethics and society, God,” a source noted.
The rejection by Saudi Arabia, however, is seen as preserving moral values and shielding humanity against Godlessness in disguise being propagated by the west as seen in the United Nations’ CEDAW it cleverly presents in the open as fighting discrimination against women against the rules of nature by God, which gives more rights to woman than any human thinking can comprehend, the source said.
For those who are ignorant of the CEDAW, he confirmed a verified document in circulation saying, the Saudi’s rejection of the “evil document” as captured in the televised speech of the Minister of State for Foreign Affairs, Adel Al-Jubeir, means REJECTION of the Agreement based on the following content and why the content is unacceptable:
“1- CEDAW says that a woman is like a man!!!
And the Qur’an says: “And the male is not like the female.”
“2- CEDAW says a man is not allowed to have polygamy!!!.
And the Qur’an says: “Then marry as many women as you like, two, three and four.”
“3- CEDAW says that children are named after their mothers!!!.
And the Qur’an says: “Call them to their fathers.”
“4- CEDAW says: There is no waiting period for a woman!!!
And the Qur’an says: And divorced women await three readings by themselves.
“5- CEDAW says the man does not have guardianship over the woman and the father does not have guardianship over his daughters!!!.
And the Qur’an says: “Men are the guardians of women.”
“6 CEDAW says male and female in inheritance are one!!!.
And the Qur’an says: “The male shall have the share of two females.”
“7- CEDAW says a man can marry a man like him, a woman can marry a woman like her!!!
And the Qur’an says: “Do you come to the remembrances of the worlds.”
“8- CEDAW gives women the right to have an abortion!!!.
“And the Qur’an says: (And do not kill your children).
“9- CEDAW does not criminalize sexual relations outside of marriage for both spouses!!!
And the Qur’an says: (Do not approach adultery, for it was an indecency and an evil way).
“10- CEDAW says: A woman is bound to whomever she wants, separates whenever she wants and reconnects whenever she wants!!!
And the Qur’an says: (Magnorous women who do not intermarry, nor take wives’ wives).
“11 – CEDAW says: The age of marriage is after eighteen!!!
And the Qur’an says: (And afflict the orphans until they reach the age of marriage).”
According to the source, “Whoever wants to stand by CEDAW and defend it must know that he is disobedient to God, and denies His Book and the Sunnah of His Prophet.
“Work diligently to dissolve the conservative society, and work to push it to follow lust and perversion.”
The DEFENDER reports how a similar attempt by the west to smuggle such “devilish document” permitting homosexuality and other such documents, in disguise of ‘child rights’, failed in Nigeria when President Goodluck Jonathan, while in office, refused to sign the bill passed by the country’s Senate.
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Cornelius Hamelberg
In anticipation of the objections and opposition that's bound to come from very predictable quarters, here's a good place to start:
Orthodox and ultra-Orthodox Judaism on LGBTQ
Rabbi Avraham Greenbaum on homosexuality
Strong words from Rabbi Greenbaum HERE
When a Muslim talks like that he’s labelled homophobic - which he rightly is, some kind of holy homophobia and the media and other pontificating pundits will be found frothing at the mouth, ready to lynch him.
The incontrovertible fact is that according to the Universe of al Islam, there is one God, Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala, one seal of prophecy, namely the last Prophet, Prophet Muhammad, salallahu alaihi wa salaam, one Quran and one qibla. In other words, there is only one Islam
Therefore, alhamdulillah to Saudi Arabia and Adel Al-Jubeir on their firm Islamic stand on LGBTQ issues as they affect the ummah.
With regard to all the depravity - in the name of “modernity”, concerning all the gobbledegook and all fiendish advocacy aimed at “legalising “ and glorifying homosexuality and same-sex marriage in Muslim mosques, it is a well-known fact that the enemies of Islam would, first of all, like to wreck the moral/ ethical foundations on which the great religion of al Islam is built because they know that the collapse would then inevitably follow.
The enemies of Islam would like to strip the Muslim woman of her hijab and her right to wear a hijab, but do not seek to strip Catholic nuns of the same privilege.
Preferably, the enemy of Islam would like to strip the Muslim woman naked, would like to see her entering the mosque in her short / mini-skirt or underwear - a direct attack on womanhood, motherhood, family, - the foundation of any nation, an attack on modesty and family values, and to thereby to bring a rapid end to Islamic civilisation. Make no mistake about it, that is what the enemies of Islam would like to achieve, as they have witnessed the collapse and ruination of what was once e.g. the Roman Empire, knowing that what was first to go was morality, and then the destruction was a fait accompli. The battle cry of the advocates of homosexuality is “ Free your mind, and your ass will follow!”
The phrase “ya ayyuhallazina amanu” which translates as ”O you who believe” occurs in the Quran, the Holy Book of al -Islam, approximately 88 - 90 times.
Call it a culture war if you must. The point to be made about this is that it should be unreasonable for e.g. an unbelieving United Nations or any other non-Muslim body to want to impose anti-Muslim laws on Muslim people in or out of their own Muslim countries. It is manifestly unreasonable to expect Muslims to prefer to disobey what Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala has decreed, and prefer or reluctantly choose to obey e.g the United Nations' un-Islamic and anti-Islamic proposals as laws….
“A Muslim commentary on the Universal Declaration of Human Rights” by Hazrat Agha Sulṭān Ḥusayn Tābandah Reza Ali Shah ( who initiated me personally, in 1989) like other Islamic Commentaries on that document, such as The Islamic Declaration Of Human Rights by Ayatollah Mohammad Ali Taskhiri and the Cairo Declaration on Human Rights in Islam (1990) and several Human Rights Conferences that have been held in Saudi Arabia since 1972, all express some reservations about articles 18 and 19
Enough said. Over to you
Harrow, Kenneth
kenneth harrow
professor emeritus
dept of english
michigan state university
To: usaafric...@googlegroups.com <usaafric...@googlegroups.com>
Salimonu Kadiri
Derailing the discussion on Wednesday, August 24, 2022, Kenneth Harrow wrote, "I don't know how others on this list feel about gay rights. I believe they are as fundamental as any other rights to which people have claims. I have a lesbian granddaughter. I have gay friends - women, men trans; I know enough about their movement in the past 50 years to believe in it as a civil rights movement with the same basic goals as the civil rights movement and all movements that assert the rights of Muslims, Jews, Christians, and all people of faith, to be able to practice their religions." Gay is a U.S. euphemism invented to name the homosexuals, that is to say, men who are sexually attracted to men, the so-called same-sex intercourse. Similarly, a woman who is sexually attracted to women is called a lesbian or a tribade. Why should homosexual rights be equated to the African American civil rights movement of the 1960s? In his speech titled, The Ballot or the Bullet, Malcolm X gave a gist of what civil rights movement was about. Hear him, "If you and I were Americans, there'd be no problem. Those Hunkies that just got off the boat, they're already Americans; Polacks are already Americans; the Italian refugees are already Americans. Everything that came out of Europe, every blue-eyed thing, is already an American. And as long as you and I have been over here, we aren't Americans yet. ...//... Being born here in America doesn't make you an American. Why, if birth made you American, you wouldn't need any legislation, you wouldn't need any amendments to the Constitution, you wouldn't be faced with civil-rights filibustering in Washington, D.C., right now. They don't have to pass civil-rights legislation to make a Pollack an American (p.25-26, Malcolm X Speaks)." Of recent, I read in the newspapers that 48 States in the U.S., have enacted electoral laws that will prevent Blacks in particular to vote in elections. Although, an African American was president of the U.S., for eight years, it did not prevent the slaughter of Black Americans in the streets like rams, culminating in Black Lives Matter demonstrations. It is demeaning to the entire Black race to reduce the segregation and confinement of African Americans to ghettos, denial of access to quality education and the right to vote in elections to the rights of homosexual to copulate freely with one another. Homosexuality is a self-preferred or a self-imposed behaviour because it is unnatural for two heterosexuals to give birth to a homosexual child unless one is talking of a deformed child.
Human beings are not self-pollinating like flowers and as such males and females have to engage in sexual intercourse in order to procreate. In case of assisted pregnancy, the ingredients for In-Vitro-Fertility (IVF) are collected from both a male and a female. Biologically and genetically, every child has a maternal and paternal origin and it cannot be denied that every child is a product of heterosexuality. Unlike animals, human beings don't copulate publicly but discreetly and whatever any grown-up male and female do with themselves inside a locked door is their business and not the concern or duty of anyone to approve or disapprove. Whether for recreation or for procreation, coitus is only natural and normal between a male and a female. The question that follows is what do the homosexuals do sexually that made Kenneth Harrow to elevate their acquired sexual practices to civil rights or fundamental human rights? In his article titled, The Clinical Approach to the Male Homosexual Patient, published in the Med Clinics of North America 1986 vol.70 : p.499-535; Dr William F. Owen Jr., MD, a physician in San Francisco, California, listed sexual behaviours practised by homosexuals of which few are worthy to recall here. (1) Anogenital insertion which is insertion of penis into a male partner's rectum/anus, the so-called anal intercourse. (2) Anogenital reception which is recipient of partner's penis into the rectum/anus. (3) Oro-genital insertion which is insertion of penis into partner's mouth. (4) Oro-genital reception, also called Fellatio, which is recipient of partner's penis into the mouth. (5) Ano-digital insertion which is insertion of finger into partner's rectum /anus. (6) Ano-digital reception which is recipient of partner's finger into the rectum/anus. (7) Ano-manual insertion which is insertion of hand/arm (fist) into partner's rectum/anus. (8) Ano-manual reception which is to receive partner's hand/arm (fist) into the rectum/anus. (9) Oro-anal insertion, also called anilingus, is insertion of tongue into partner's anus to lick it. And (10) Oro-anal reception which is receiving partner's licking tongue on the anus. Among his homosexual patients Dr William F, Owens found men who were afflicted with gonorrhoea of the throat, syphilis of the lip, gonococcal abscess of the rectum, and herpes of the anus after anal and oral sex. One does not need to be a certified religious fanatic to be horrified by what neo-liberal pass off as legitimate homosexual civil rights that must be respected. Anatomically, the anus is not constructed to receive things from below but for the exit of faecal matter, in addition for farting. Mouth too is anatomically constructed to eat food, drink and talk. Neither the mouth nor the anus is a sexual organ. Those are biological facts and not social construction.
In his 1989 book titled, THE MYTH OF HETEROSEXUAL AIDS - HOW A TRAGEDY HAS BEEN DISTORTED BY THE MEDIA AND PARTISAN POLITICS, Michael Fumento wrote about the danger of anal sexual intercourse as follows : The reason for the danger of anal sex in the era of AIDS is in part the difference between the tissue construction of the male urethra and rectum and the female vagina. While the vagina is constructed of tough plate-like cells that resists rupture and infectious agents, and are designed to withstand the motions of intercourse and childbirth, the urethra and rectum are constructed primarily of columnar cells which tear or rupture easily. This allows semen to enter the more readily accessible blood vessels of the rectum or conversely, allows blood from a ruptured rectum to seep into the urethra of the inserted partner in anal intercourse. ..... The vagina provides natural lubrication, whereas there is little in the anus. Anal douching, a practice many homosexuals engage in prior to anal intercourse, can remove what lubrication the anus has ... Non-lubrication not only increases the chance of ruptures but at the same time reduces the efficiency of the condom, which many have touted as the way to turn unsafe homosexual sex into safe sex. The condom has a considerably higher breakage rate during anal sex... (p.45-46). In a note on page 49, Fumento wrote that the homosexuals claim that the anus is not inferior to vagina as a receiver of the penis (anus = vagina). Therefore, according to the homosexuals, homosexuality is as natural as heterosexuality. That anus is not equal to vagina one has to compare what happens when the anus or the vagina is penetrated with the penis.
"The homosexuals," Joan Shenton wrote, "inhaled poppers - amyl and butyl nitrites. This drug was regularly used to enhance sexual pleasure and in particular to help dilate the anal orifice and allow 'fisting' (brachioproctal intercourse in the aggressively promiscuous lifestyle .... The new-found sexual freedom that followed the gay liberation movement ... led some gay men into a fast track, high risk lifestyle, where DRUG-ASSISTED SEX became a necessary part of their daily life .... (p. xx, POSSITIVELY FALSE - EXPOSING THE MYTHS AROUND HIV AND AIDS, 1998)." Concerning drug-assisted sex that enables homosexuals to sexually penetrate each other's anus with penis Professor Peter H. Duesberg wrote, "During the 1960s, male homosexuals discovered the aphrodisiac effects of nitrites. Receptive anal intercourse became less painful because the anal sphincter (muscle) would relax; therefore, receptive men used far more of the drug than did their inserting partners. Nitrites also helped maintain erections and intensified orgasm, and some users even claimed euphoric 'high' (p. 270, Inventing the AIDS Virus by Peter H. Duesberg)." In another book titled, AIDS : VIRUS or DRUG INDUCED, Peter H. Duesberg affirmed, "Male homosexual relationships without anal intercourse or injections of drugs are not associated with AIDS; neither is lesbianism. AIDS began and prevailed among ... passive male, and sometimes female, recipients of anal intercourse. This is because the rectal mucosa and its supporting tissues are relatively fragile, designed for excretory, not intrusive activity. When the thin submucosa is eroded and blood vessels are damaged, the tissues and blood stream are opened to invasion by all the organisms of the faecal microflora, by the pathogens of all the sexually transmitted diseases, and many others (p. 177)." If anus were equal to vagina, childbirth would have been occurring through the anus and not through the vagina.
As if the greatest problem confronting Africa is the establishment of homosexual lifestyle, Kenneth Harrow has reproduced a Wikipedia list of African countries that have never criminalised homosexuality and those that have decriminalised it, including the one that has legalised same sex marriage and in addition to those countries that have enacted LGBT anti-discrimination laws. Of course, many African leaders were frightened by President Obama's threat of economic sanction against any African country that did not decriminalize homosexuality in 2014, although as of that time in the U.S., homosexuality was legal only in 17 out 50 U.S., States. www.vanguardngr.com/2014/01/gay-marriage-law-us-threatens-sanction-nigeria/<http://www.vanguardngr.com/2014/01/gay-marriage-law-us-threatens-sanction-nigeria/>
[https://cdn.vanguardngr.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/Obama-in-Chicago.jpg]<http://www.vanguardngr.com/2014/01/gay-marriage-law-us-threatens-sanction-nigeria/>
Gay-Marriage Law: US threatens to sanction Nigeria<http://www.vanguardngr.com/2014/01/gay-marriage-law-us-threatens-sanction-nigeria/>
Leading western countries piled pressure on the Federal government, yesterday, following President Goodluck Jonathan’s signing of the Same-Sex Prohibition Act 2014. The latest country is the ...
www.vanguardngr.com
I am not sure of other indigenous languages in Africa, but in my own mother tongue there is no word for homosexuality, lesbian, oral and anal sex or rape because they are never practised. As bad as we think African leaders are, none of them has ever behaved as President Bil Clinton who in the Oval Office area, thrusted a Cuban cigar into the vagina of Monica Lewinsky and licked it up. And when the blue gown of Monica Lewinsky stained with the sperm of President Clinton surfaced during his impeachment, he admitted inserting his penis into the mouth of Miss Lewinsky for active oral sex. When the economic and industrial development of the U.S., and Western Europe were at the same level as African countries are today, homosexuality was forbidden in their laws. So, why can't U.S., and her allied global ruler uplift Africa to the same level of economic and industrial development they are today before demanding that Africans should adopt their system of sexual perversities as a way of life?
In Africa, two or more women can agree to share a man as a husband, which is called polygamy. But polygamy is criminalized as bigamy in Europe and the U.S. A man who marries more than one wife in the U.S., will be guilty of bigamy and shall be punished by a fine of $500 and in addition to imprisonment for a term of not more than five years. I will like to know from Kenneth Harrow if the civil right of two women agreeing to marry the same man as their husband or a man marrying to two wives is less than that of homosexual (same-sex) marriage? If your answer is positive, why?
S. Kadiri
________________________________
From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com <usaafric...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Harrow, Kenneth <har...@msu.edu>
Sent: 26 August 2022 12:26
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Muhammed's Koran and Salman Rushdie's The Satanic Verses: A Comparative Reading
Homosexuality has never been criminalised in Benin, Burkina Faso<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Burkina_Faso>, Ivory Coast<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Ivory_Coast>, Democratic Republic of the Congo<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_the_Democratic_Republic_of_the_Congo>, Djibouti<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Djibouti>, Equatorial Guinea<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Equatorial_Guinea>, Madagascar<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Madagascar>, Mali<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Mali>, Niger<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Niger>, and Rwanda<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Rwanda>. It has been decriminalised in Angola<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Angola>, Botswana<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Botswana>, Cape Verde<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Cape_Verde>, Gabon<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Gabon>, Guinea-Bissau<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Guinea-Bissau>, Lesotho<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Lesotho>, Mozambique<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Mozambique>, São Tomé and Príncipe<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_S%C3%A3o_Tom%C3%A9_and_Pr%C3%ADncipe>, the Seychelles<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Seychelles> and South Africa<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_South_Africa>. South Africa was the fifth country in the world to legalize same-sex marriage in November of 2006. LGBT anti-discrimination laws<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-discrimination_law> exist in seven African countries: Angola, Botswana, Cape Verde, Mauritius, Mozambique, Seychelles, and South Africa.
the aarticle goes on to state alll the horrible ways gays are also punished/made illlegall etc in various africa states, the worst also including...northern nigeria. my point is simply that it is an ongoing struggle.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Africa
LGBT rights in Africa - Wikipedia<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Africa>
kenneth harrow
professor emeritus
dept of english
michigan state university
517 803-8839
har...@msu.edu
________________________________
From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com <usaafric...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Cornelius Hamelberg <cornelius...@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2022 9:45 AM
To: USA Africa Dialogue Series <usaafric...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Muhammed's Koran and Salman Rushdie's The Satanic Verses: A Comparative Reading
“more than half (52%) of American Muslims agreed that "society should approve of homosexuality."
First reaction :
From a Muslim point of view, it’s not a matter of what society approves, it’s a matter of what Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala/ God approves.
By “society”, I assume they mean American society not the worldwide community of Muslims known as the Ummah al-Islam
USA: When so-called US-certified Muslim leaders start legally conducting same-sex weddings in Mosques in the USA, one can only conclude that this is definitively one of the many sure signs that we are living in the last days<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=Islam**A3A*signs*of*the*last*days__;KyUrKysrKw!!HXCxUKc!yir3K99pJOxhghxs39YUlwt6AybWWtyIDKxmN6VWsY8h4y8Bx-1pNVHkuVLRfCNYMnZk9qXuG9AXkPspXicbUe1R$> !
Out of curiosity, I Googled this : Nation of Islam on LGBT<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=Nation*of*Islam*on*LGBT__;KysrKw!!HXCxUKc!yir3K99pJOxhghxs39YUlwt6AybWWtyIDKxmN6VWsY8h4y8Bx-1pNVHkuVLRfCNYMnZk9qXuG9AXkPspXlF58q6F$>
I would say the efforts are commendable, if the work was carried out as a social service outside of a religious context, nothing to do with prayer, mosques, condemnation, sins, haram etc…and nothing with the falsisfication/s of faith, the message of Islam - for example, the Muslim does ghusl after sexual intercourse before doing his salat at home or entering a mosque to pray. The mosque too is a holy place…
The sentence that begins with “A growing number of Islamic scholars, mainly in the West '' and all that follows in that trajectory is suspect - inevitably suspect of more uncle-tom-foolery by Islamic stooges who are being nicely brainwashed by their hosts in the interest of the Americanisation / coco-cola-i-zation of al-Islam. And of course, Professor Harrow would be the first standing in line to tell us about contextualisation, that wherever Islam goes, has gone, or went, Islam acquires or adapts to some local colour - so that there’s a Senegalese Islam, and a Nigerian Islam even if both follow Maliki fiqh.
Re - The Americanisation of Islam. Try this for size when it comes to conspiracy theories: Mossad 'likely' behind Salman Rushdie stabbing, claims Denver professor<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.jpost.com/international/article-715333__;!!HXCxUKc!yir3K99pJOxhghxs39YUlwt6AybWWtyIDKxmN6VWsY8h4y8Bx-1pNVHkuVLRfCNYMnZk9qXuG9AXkPspXncN2SFd$>
There are many exhortations in the Quran which begin with “ O mankind<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=Quran**A3A*O*mankind**A21&n__;KyUrKysl!!HXCxUKc!yir3K99pJOxhghxs39YUlwt6AybWWtyIDKxmN6VWsY8h4y8Bx-1pNVHkuVLRfCNYMnZk9qXuG9AXkPspXmmVE_hF$>” , emphasising the unity of humankind and of uttermost relevance here, Surah Al-Hujurat, ayat 13<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=Surah*Al-Hujurat*13__;Kys!!HXCxUKc!yir3K99pJOxhghxs39YUlwt6AybWWtyIDKxmN6VWsY8h4y8Bx-1pNVHkuVLRfCNYMnZk9qXuG9AXkPspXtyp34Ah$>:
“O mankind! Lo! We have created you male and female, and have made you nations and tribes that ye may know one another. Lo! the noblest of you, in the sight of Allah, is the best in conduct. Lo! Allah is Knower, Aware.”
So how does Islam and its various branches deal with the reality that circa 5% of the faithful are LGBT which is not a “disease” because they were either born that way - fitra <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=Islam**A3A*fitra__;KyUr!!HXCxUKc!yir3K99pJOxhghxs39YUlwt6AybWWtyIDKxmN6VWsY8h4y8Bx-1pNVHkuVLRfCNYMnZk9qXuG9AXkPspXs7hUxeI$> - or were/are being influenced by local/ global environment and other cultural factors?
Since it is not a “disease/ illness”, the idea of corrective therapy/ deprogramming is out of the question. ( I remember that sometime in the early 1970s in Sweden an irresponsible someone had diagnosed homosexuality as an illness - the reaction was that on the following day, en masse gay people called in to report at their various work places to report that they were ill and could therefore not go to work “today”. The diagnosis “ illness” was retracted in less than 24 hours.
I think that I have reported to this forum how, once upon a time, as I was sitting on her bed beside her and the devil was whispering in my ear “ go ahead and seduce her” I was on the brink of wanting to “convert” a certain Carol - an Afro-American sister who was a captain in the US army? But I remembered just in the nick of time, how she had verbally mishandled a buddy of mine Tommy Powell (circa 197 cm tall, from Oakland, California) just a few hours earlier…
Islam’s LGBTQ people ought not to be ostracised - from mosques or communities and that’s precisely what happens when they form/are constituted into separate special needs communities.
From experience, one knows that one does not have to believe everything that turns up in print, so, for verification and clarity I had to Google what popped up in your link: ”Ayatollah Khomeini declared transgender surgical operations allowable”<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?client=avast-a-1&q=Ayatollah*Khomeini*declared*transgender*surgical*operations*allowable__;KysrKysr!!HXCxUKc!yir3K99pJOxhghxs39YUlwt6AybWWtyIDKxmN6VWsY8h4y8Bx-1pNVHkuVLRfCNYMnZk9qXuG9AXkPspXqmwN-xN$>
On Thursday, 25 August 2022 at 01:58:45 UTC+2 Kenneth Harrow wrote:
a brief search for "muslims in support of gay rights" turned up this:
". However, according to a recent survey by Public Religion Research Center, more than half (52%) of American Muslims ageed that "society should approve of homosexuality."
and this: "A growing number of Islamic scholars, mainly in the West, have started re-examining Islamic teachings on same-sex relationships and whether a blanket condemnation of LGBTQ people is a misinterpretation. There are also growing opportunities for alternative and meaningful worship and community. Muslims for Progressive Values (MPV) has founded Unity Mosques in Atlanta, GA; Columbus, OH; and Los Angeles, CA. The Muslim Alliance for Sexual and Gender Diversity hosts a retreat for LGBTQ Muslims in Pennsylvania each year. MECCA Institute was recently established as an online school for the study of an inclusive theology of Islam for those seeking more expansive and inclusive interpretations of Islamic texts. "
[https://ci5.googleusercontent.com/proxy/AW3f0HMHNtMqEtxBd2qn3OSFew3d8pIcjIw8n9tnN0_5G_i3ffYNpBwsh1PXSs5Tf_QWZlgF8by4ZZ3Id4THP6Izruz8VLavQlkq0LM_jyb9dmnsSmHUDzPO9oHOpwmmokKEis9KCWFY_5jziFFu22DfR33rMXvwtLa0A2I3IMYKZEeLLKhobX6vnmvSkEABVImjV20jveSYLR4Qto44JfersGU=s0-d-e1-ft#https://hrc-prod-requests.s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/files/images/blog/_1200x630_crop_center-center_none/Washington-DC-Mosque-Islam-1600x900.jpg]<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.hrc.org/resources/stances-of-faiths-on-lgbt-issues-islam__;!!HXCxUKc!yir3K99pJOxhghxs39YUlwt6AybWWtyIDKxmN6VWsY8h4y8Bx-1pNVHkuVLRfCNYMnZk9qXuG9AXkPspXsQ-L8QD$>
Stances of Faiths on LGBTQ Issues: Islam - Sunni and Shi'a<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.hrc.org/resources/stances-of-faiths-on-lgbt-issues-islam__;!!HXCxUKc!yir3K99pJOxhghxs39YUlwt6AybWWtyIDKxmN6VWsY8h4y8Bx-1pNVHkuVLRfCNYMnZk9qXuG9AXkPspXsQ-L8QD$>
kenneth harrow
professor emeritus
dept of english
michigan state university
har...@msu.edu
________________________________
From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com <usaafric...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Cornelius Hamelberg <cornelius...@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2022 11:02 AM
To: USA Africa Dialogue Series <usaafric...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Muhammed's Koran and Salman Rushdie's The Satanic Verses: A Comparative Reading
All the points made by Kenneth Harrow could be taken seriously, sympathetically, without inflicting any harm on others or on the various societies, but when he says, that he has "no doubts progressive muslims can be found who also support gay rights and who can quote scripture to justify this", I believe that that kind of wishful thinking/ daydreaming has to be taken with a nip of salt.
On the contrary, we are to expect extreme hostility, not least of all from the likes of Sheikh Yasser Habib who has his own tough scripture-based views on homosexuality<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=Sheikh*Yasser*Habib*views*on*homosexuality__;KysrKys!!HXCxUKc!1G9vY5-_MAO9opglPB09ERmLpgfnGAZ9AS18HIKKsVzxWAJK3NlPY-B3gHye8H7Cj7Qr-Yj7-RJDU8Rn_I5Bpljd$>
As we ramble and rumble on about these matters we ought not to forget the main issue in this thread and what Kenneth has said so far seems to tally with what’s written here about the attack on Sir Ahmed Salman Rushdie <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://rairfoundation.com/when-will-authorities-reveal-hadi-matars-collaborators-demand-justice-for-salman-rushdie-videos/__;!!HXCxUKc!1G9vY5-_MAO9opglPB09ERmLpgfnGAZ9AS18HIKKsVzxWAJK3NlPY-B3gHye8H7Cj7Qr-Yj7-RJDU8Rn_EdIigNe$>
On Wednesday, 24 August 2022 at 16:21:53 UTC+2 Kenneth Harrow wrote:
i don't know how others on the list feel about gay rights. i believe they are as fundamental as any other rights to which people have claims. i have a lesbian granddaughter. i have gay friends-- women men trans; i know enough about their movement in the past 50 years to believe in it as a civil rights movement with the same basic goals as the civil rights movement, and all movements that assert the rights of muslims, jews, christians, and all people of faith, to be able to practice their religions.
i don't believe that right means censoring others. nor do i believe that the meaning of the words of any holy text can be interpreted in only one authorized way, or that any interpretation justifies abusing others because they are gay.
for instance, in the jewish bible there are horrible passages condemning gay practices. but in rabbinic judaism the texts get reread/reinterpreted, and in current judaism, outside ultraorthodox, gay rights are and people widely accepted--welcomed. christianity is also divided on it. i have no doubts progressive muslims can be found who also support gay rights and who can quote scripture to justify this.
i don't believe it is the right of the west to impose its own beliefs on africans. i don't believe that africans all think with one mind, so that you can say Senegalese are opposed to gay rights. some are opposed--perhaps most, although that is not clear. les hommes-femmes (goorgui-jenn)have been in senegal for centuries, especially in saint louis. i know there are senegalese who believe in gay rights; and i imagine there is not a single african country where there is not some degree of this struggle. i know south africa is probably exemplary in the world in its laws on gay rights.
i know there was a gay community, underground, in cameroon when we lived there in the 70s. i know it is a maajor movement in nigeria, kenya, and many other places.
my point is that it an issue of struggle in contemporary africa, and we have the right to align ourselves on either side and claim other africans are also engaged in this struggle.... it is not fixed or decided, or frozen. i would want to side with jo ramaka, a great filmmaker, in his right to make Karmen Gei, a great film, and to have senegalese people see the film and decide for themselves how they feel about it.
ken
kenneth harrow
professor emeritus
dept of english
michigan state university
har...@msu.edu
________________________________
From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com <usaafric...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Cornelius Hamelberg <cornelius...@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2022 8:16 AM
To: USA Africa Dialogue Series <usaafric...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Muhammed's Koran and Salman Rushdie's The Satanic Verses: A Comparative Reading
LGBT composers in classical music history<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=LGBT*composers*in*classical*music*history__;KysrKys!!HXCxUKc!1SCU0Uab09w_jE2XiPoKSRkQsHm0LtDg5_OFoRwhiScyBhG0IZxUTh0OxsnHDOL0dKcLV_xwizgAp-Ve6dsCY24Q$>
LGBT Writers <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=LGBT*writers__;Kw!!HXCxUKc!1SCU0Uab09w_jE2XiPoKSRkQsHm0LtDg5_OFoRwhiScyBhG0IZxUTh0OxsnHDOL0dKcLV_xwizgAp-Ve6dxdmYRF$>
LGBT Philosophers<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=LGBT*Philosophers__;Kw!!HXCxUKc!1SCU0Uab09w_jE2XiPoKSRkQsHm0LtDg5_OFoRwhiScyBhG0IZxUTh0OxsnHDOL0dKcLV_xwizgAp-Ve6S0zmlI_$>
There’s also medicine, science and technology, art, popular music, theatre, cinema, business, sports…
The Lord spoke to Moses, saying:
“Take the staff and assemble the congregation, you and your brother Aaron, and speak to the rock in their presence so that it will give forth its water. You shall bring forth water for them from the rock and give the congregation and their livestock to drink.”
Moses took the staff from before the Lord as He had commanded him.
Moses and Aaron assembled the congregation in front of the rock, and he said to them, "Now listen, you rebels, can we draw water for you from this rock?”
Moses raised his hand and struck the rock with his staff twice when an abundance of water gushed forth, and the congregation and their livestock drank
The Lord said to Moses and Aaron, "Since you did not have faith in Me to sanctify Me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore you shall not bring this assembly to the Land which I have given them.”
These are the waters of dispute [Mei Meribah] where the children of Israel contended with the Lord, and He was sanctified through them
Nowadays, same-sex marriages are being celebrated in some churches<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=Same*sex*marriages*being*celebrated*in*churches__;KysrKysr!!HXCxUKc!1SCU0Uab09w_jE2XiPoKSRkQsHm0LtDg5_OFoRwhiScyBhG0IZxUTh0OxsnHDOL0dKcLV_xwizgAp-Ve6Rjzkbjz$> and some synagogues<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=Same*sex*marriages*being*celebrated*in*synagogues__;KysrKysr!!HXCxUKc!1SCU0Uab09w_jE2XiPoKSRkQsHm0LtDg5_OFoRwhiScyBhG0IZxUTh0OxsnHDOL0dKcLV_xwizgAp-Ve6Tu5UrQE$>. For me, it’s difficult to envisage this happening in the world of al-Islam, in any mosque in Saudi Arabia, Iran or Somailiaany days soon, even if Joe Biden or his predecessor Barack Obama were to fly over to Saudi Arabia, Iran or Somalia to advocate the legalisation of LGBT. Can anyone here imagine Donald Trump having the temerity to fly over to Goree in Senegal to tell the people there to legalise it? Shit? Of course, Trump would never do that - and Obama, seen here bowing to the Saudi King<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=Obama*bows*to*Saudi*King__;KysrKw!!HXCxUKc!1SCU0Uab09w_jE2XiPoKSRkQsHm0LtDg5_OFoRwhiScyBhG0IZxUTh0OxsnHDOL0dKcLV_xwizgAp-Ve6TRKpQ2k$>, wouldn’t dare to fly over to Saudi Arabia or Iran or Somalia to tell them to “legalise” LGBT. So why does he fly over to Senegal to deliver such a message? The reason. His love for a brother nation
That “Pride Sabbath<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=Pride*Sabbath__;Kw!!HXCxUKc!1SCU0Uab09w_jE2XiPoKSRkQsHm0LtDg5_OFoRwhiScyBhG0IZxUTh0OxsnHDOL0dKcLV_xwizgAp-Ve6SZ-5ALh$>” was celebrated in many places: should come as no surprise, since there are gay rabbis<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?client=avast-a-1&q=Gay*Rabbis&oq=Gay*Rabbis__;Kys!!HXCxUKc!1SCU0Uab09w_jE2XiPoKSRkQsHm0LtDg5_OFoRwhiScyBhG0IZxUTh0OxsnHDOL0dKcLV_xwizgAp-Ve6ZpXM8xg$> and possibly gay rabbits too. Considering all that Paul has said about homosexuality<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=Paul*on*homosexuality__;Kys!!HXCxUKc!1SCU0Uab09w_jE2XiPoKSRkQsHm0LtDg5_OFoRwhiScyBhG0IZxUTh0OxsnHDOL0dKcLV_xwizgAp-Ve6R6OySF2$> if he were to resurrect and be with us right now to observe what’s going on, he would probably experience a second death - as he himself has said, “ I die daily”. Jesus on the other hand has already said “ Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone!”
Senegal: Mbalax 2019 <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=Mbalax*2019__;Kw!!HXCxUKc!1SCU0Uab09w_jE2XiPoKSRkQsHm0LtDg5_OFoRwhiScyBhG0IZxUTh0OxsnHDOL0dKcLV_xwizgAp-Ve6QkRiP3c$>
On Tuesday, 23 August 2022 at 15:05:29 UTC+2 Cornelius Hamelberg wrote:
Dear Kenneth,
I have always thought that compared to many other Muslim places - e.g Afghanistan, Senegal is a relatively much “free-er” society - and that the women are a lot “ free-er”, perhaps, because the Wolof woman, just like the Kalabari woman, is not subjected to the controversial FGM.
I have tracked the movie down : Karmen Geï <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vUEx7emNnI__;!!HXCxUKc!1SCU0Uab09w_jE2XiPoKSRkQsHm0LtDg5_OFoRwhiScyBhG0IZxUTh0OxsnHDOL0dKcLV_xwizgAp-Ve6embfe_-$> ) 1 hour and 22 minutes - will probably have to skip the boring and haram pornographic bits). Apparently, it caused quite a splash<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=Karmen*Gei.&newwindow=1&client=avast-a-1&tbm=vid&source=lnt&tbs=dur:l&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjcnYKu7dz5AhXKhFwKHcVMCokQpwV6BAgBEBc&biw=1536&bih=750&dpr=1.25__;Kw!!HXCxUKc!1SCU0Uab09w_jE2XiPoKSRkQsHm0LtDg5_OFoRwhiScyBhG0IZxUTh0OxsnHDOL0dKcLV_xwizgAp-Ve6euIMhgr$>, at the time. Fast forward, is there now an official censorship board in Senegal, and if so, could the film now pass the litmus test? Would it be banned in Tunisia? Nigeria?
Whilst in London earlier this month one of my close relatives said that she had attended a lesbian wedding the previous day ( a quite pagan ceremony) between a director of prison and one of the prison wardens there - as we discussed the matter, the brilliant lawyer among us said that the relationship could lead to a conflict of interests - possible - hypothetical scenarios with regard to taking disciplinary measures ( nepotism not being the order of the day when it comes to law enforcement in Merry England)
Kora and N'goni Music<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DT2xHqUtCw__;!!HXCxUKc!1SCU0Uab09w_jE2XiPoKSRkQsHm0LtDg5_OFoRwhiScyBhG0IZxUTh0OxsnHDOL0dKcLV_xwizgAp-Ve6bHlZD-P$>
BEST OF MBALAX 2020<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=baIPdd7ouP0__;!!HXCxUKc!1SCU0Uab09w_jE2XiPoKSRkQsHm0LtDg5_OFoRwhiScyBhG0IZxUTh0OxsnHDOL0dKcLV_xwizgAp-Ve6TlYxhLX$>
On Tuesday, 23 August 2022 at 09:28:50 UTC+2 Kenneth Harrow wrote:
dear cornelius
yes, there is an african film, quite a great film, that was subject to religious censorship, and its showing was c losed down thanks to threats from either the tijanis or mourids, i forget who. it was awful, like all religious excesses, extremes and censoring. the film was jo ramaka's Karmen Gei. in the film,m karmen has a lesbian affair with the prison warden, a first in afr film (first in its actual depiction of their lovemaking).
the prison warden subsequently dies, and karmen attends the funeral and sings a mourid threnody.
the sacrilege was in singing that song in the film....or so they said. it was probably the lesbianism that set them off.
the theatre was threatened with being burnt down, so they cancelled the showing. i don't know if jo had to leave town till it died down. since then he's returned and lived in dakar on and off.
ken
kenneth harrow
professor emeritus
dept of english
michigan state university
har...@msu.edu
________________________________
From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com <usaafric...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Cornelius Hamelberg <cornelius...@gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, August 22, 2022 6:37 PM
To: USA Africa Dialogue Series <usaafric...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Muhammed's Koran and Salman Rushdie's The Satanic Verses: A Comparative Reading
Dear Kenneth,
You must have seen them many times in Senegal.
Obviously, this brothel business of Rushdie’s is a fulfilment of these lines by Literature Nobel Laureate Dylan:
“And if my thought-dreams could be seen.
They'd probably put my head in a guillotine”
Whereas some critics have pointed out that this was Peter, dreaming<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=Jesus*walking*on*water*2C*was*Peter*dreaming*3F&n__;KysrJSsrKyU!!HXCxUKc!wPZ8lHDpucAN1GTTA4UooejbF-ULNaNbjVR565dpYX140QM8iE2mvJlQVU5RYZBdGE6HSdQf45-I6d-ZcgjSzfW4$>, preacher man insists that Jesus actually walked on water.
Some Hindus enumerate walking on water as a Siddhi that can be acquired by advanced yogis<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=Siddhi**A3A*walking*on*water__;KyUrKys!!HXCxUKc!wPZ8lHDpucAN1GTTA4UooejbF-ULNaNbjVR565dpYX140QM8iE2mvJlQVU5RYZBdGE6HSdQf45-I6d-ZctYvcwSo$>.
Another siddhi is levitation<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=Siddhi**A3A*levitation__;KyUr!!HXCxUKc!wPZ8lHDpucAN1GTTA4UooejbF-ULNaNbjVR565dpYX140QM8iE2mvJlQVU5RYZBdGE6HSdQf45-I6d-ZchNUe0dl$>. There are many different siddhis<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=The*Siddhis**A28*superpowers__;KyslKw!!HXCxUKc!wPZ8lHDpucAN1GTTA4UooejbF-ULNaNbjVR565dpYX140QM8iE2mvJlQVU5RYZBdGE6HSdQf45-I6d-ZcowBX_8N$>. Maybe, unbeknownst to us, Rudi Guiliani has some secret siddhis that we have never heard about. How do we know that he hasn’t? It could be an epistemological problem. Likewise, for all we know the miscreant Rushdie could be shuffering from demon-possession, the kind of demon that does his wudu with his urine and is in dire need of some exorcism.
Preacherman also says that “ Faith can move mountains” ( mountains of problems)
With e.g. “Jesus Christ Superstar “ in mind, are there any Rushdie-like problems to be anticipated in e.g. African cinema? ( A death fatwa on the actors and the producer. Maybe blow up the whole theatre and the audience therein. Thy kingdom come , Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Send them all to hell directly, with a one-way ticket. And don’t ever let them come back here.
Re - your footnote:
How does
compare with
Ayi Kwei Armah : Two Thousand Seasons<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=Ayi*Kwei*Armah**A3A**ATwo*Thousand*Seasons__;KysrJSsrKys!!HXCxUKc!wPZ8lHDpucAN1GTTA4UooejbF-ULNaNbjVR565dpYX140QM8iE2mvJlQVU5RYZBdGE6HSdQf45-I6d-ZcgmfyMxf$>
On Monday, 22 August 2022 at 19:35:32 UTC+2 Kenneth Harrow wrote:
dear cornelius, with respect, rushdie doesn't place the wives of mohamed in a brothel, his character imagines this.
why the distinction? on the one hand, you are right to say, there's no difference: he, the author, made up this vision and placed it in the imaginary of his character, whom he also created.
on the other hand, the imaginary is a mediated one, not something presented as mimesis or a direction reflection of a reality.
i have read many many books where the mediations of reality present us with images of degradation and dissolution. try Last Exit to Brooklyn, or the "trash" cinemas of brazil or many others.
i don't want some good hearted religious authority to tell us what to deploy in our creations--be they art with elephant dung or anything else. it takes a giuliani to try to shut down the brookllyn museum. perhaps he might wind up burning dante's inferno with the elephant dung? why not? he is comfortable with a world ruled by maniacal power, which he tried to deploy to overthrow the elections. is he to be our guide though the "selva selvaggiaa"?
ken
kenneth harrow
professor emeritus
dept of english
michigan state university
har...@msu.edu
________________________________
From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com <usaafric...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Cornelius Hamelberg <cornelius...@gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, August 22, 2022 11:35 AM
To: USA Africa Dialogue Series <usaafric...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Muhammed's Koran and Salman Rushdie's The Satanic Verses: A Comparative Reading
Dear Sir and dear fellow Muslim sympathiser,
As the saying goes, let us be prepared to go as he or she who goes furthest in this matter.
The Quran states “The wives of the Prophet are like your mothers<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=Quran*3A*The*wives*of*the*prophet*are*as*your*mothers__;JSsrKysrKysrKw!!HXCxUKc!2T6s8qoyszZRxfuXhMW9UEWKijywWMMtF4_v_-w12TcyxXtBEs1pTTySa_DnbZ6_2LQv6wLXef9mrV8392S4yDkJ$>” ( - i-e deserving of your respect)
With this understanding, who in his right mind and in good conscience should not react when Rushdie in his "The Satanic Verses", dives into the lowest immoral pit by actually placing the wives of the Prophet of Islam, sallallahu alaihi wa salaam in a whorehouse/ brothel<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=Rushdie*puts*the*wives*of*Prophet*Muhammad**Ain*a*whorehouse__;KysrKysrKysrKw!!HXCxUKc!2T6s8qoyszZRxfuXhMW9UEWKijywWMMtF4_v_-w12TcyxXtBEs1pTTySa_DnbZ6_2LQv6wLXef9mrV8391oKcnec$>? ????
In 1989, In "How Salman Rushdie Fooled the West<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljh1jY4W74w__;!!HXCxUKc!2T6s8qoyszZRxfuXhMW9UEWKijywWMMtF4_v_-w12TcyxXtBEs1pTTySa_DnbZ6_2LQv6wLXef9mrV839xu6uJNS$>", Ahmed Deedat takes up other items of rudeness<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=Ahmed*Deedat**A3AThe*Satanic*Verses__;KyslKys!!HXCxUKc!2T6s8qoyszZRxfuXhMW9UEWKijywWMMtF4_v_-w12TcyxXtBEs1pTTySa_DnbZ6_2LQv6wLXef9mrV8391TmUwca$> liberally scattered throughout magnum opus, " The Satanic Verses"
On Monday, 22 August 2022 at 12:45:43 UTC+2 drsikir...@gmail.com wrote:
Sir,
Your question on the futility of arguing with a mad man summarises the difference between a learned person and an illiterate who considers himself an authority in any religion because he is able to speak Arabic or because he memorises Bible verses or Ifa corpus.
Ordinarily, the Qur'an addresses this question as follows:
"The likeness of those who were made to bear the Book but would not bear it, is as THE LIKENESS OF AN ASS CARRYING A LOAD OF BOOKS..."
Qur'an 62 verse 6.
In several other places, the Qur'an emphasises that it addresses the "Ulul Albaab" ( people of logical reasoning or understanding)hence, the Prophetic clarification in the Sahib that "Laa diina li maa laa aqla lahuu (There is no religion for whoever lacks the sense of reasoning).
Islam has been so lucky that the Divinity and the universality of the Qur'an cannot be distorted nor interpolated.
What happened therefore is that overzealots have exploited the secondary sources of the Shari'ah viz the Ijma' ( consensus of opinion of Muslim jurists) and the Qiyas (Analogical deductions) to proliferate various schools of thoughts that are opposed to orthodox interpretations.
As it is happening in Christianity where many adherents see their pastors as infallible and God incarnate, it is worse in Islam.
This is the major cause of the criminal manipulations of Islamic traditions in Nigeria among some Southern and most especially Northern extremist groups.
The injunctions of Islam are very clear on all issues. The circumstances of such traditions are also clear. Owing however to particularistic tendencies of sectarian groups, crimes are committed and teachings are perverted. Some of the teachings of Islam that are perverted by overzealous include but not limited to apostasy, feminism, child upbringing, polygamy, divorce and inheritance etc.
Unfortunately, many media houses are not charitable in the reportage of religious crimes across all religions and ethnic groups. Child and women rights' abuses, sexual crimes, deprivation of inheritance rights, class discrimination, labour exploitation and slave wages etc are all contemporary issues and recurring decimals in all religions in Nigeria.
On despicable fact which is distorting the understanding of these issues is the ethnic and religious profiling of crimes and criminals.
As it were, crime has no colouration, ethnic or religious. While terrorism is rampant in the North owing to our porous borders, ritual killings in the south has reached a level of a national emergency. Unfortunately, the fixation is politically on the North while the network of kidnappers and extra judicial killings in the south are under reported.
On Wed, Aug 17, 2022, 11:24 AM Cornelius Hamelberg <cornelius...@gmail.com> wrote:
Just a short question.
By the same yardstick, regarding Sacred Texts<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://sacred-texts.com/__;!!HXCxUKc!2T6s8qoyszZRxfuXhMW9UEWKijywWMMtF4_v_-w12TcyxXtBEs1pTTySa_DnbZ6_2LQv6wLXef9mrV839xL3Op1P$>, what do we have to say about Dante’s Divine Comedy<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?client=avast-a-1&q=Dante**A3A*The*Divine*Comedy__;KyUrKys!!HXCxUKc!2T6s8qoyszZRxfuXhMW9UEWKijywWMMtF4_v_-w12TcyxXtBEs1pTTySa_DnbZ6_2LQv6wLXef9mrV8395gbnrOe$>?
Should a fatwa carrying or recommending the death penalty be passed on him, his publishers, distributors and readers, currently and posthumously?
Must we always have to argue with a madman?
On Wednesday, 17 August 2022 at 01:12:33 UTC+2 drsikir...@gmail.com wrote:
In the intellectual world, a writer is a literary artist who designs ideas with words and expressions. Most at times, the writer travels far into his world of imagination. He then requires a very sophisticated audience of the caliber of this global Forum to actually discern his message.
In discerning the message, a critic could validate or invalidate the presented hypothesis.
In the above context therefore, this write up is an attempt to compare the incomparable. The Qur'an is not just a Book of Worship. It is a compendium of Philosophy, Sociology, Physical and abstract Sciences and Jurisprudence. Rushdie's presentation is one of the most recent attempts of certain class of sceptics to disprove the Divinity of the Qur'an.
Without being apologetic, as a scholar of Islamic Studies, there are intrinsic qualities that characterize the revelation, recording, compilation and the standardization of the Qur'an.
For example, Surah Al Kahf, Chpt 18 of the Qur'an opens with an emphatic declaration as follows:
"All praise belongs to Allah Who has sent down the Book to His servant, and has not placed therein any crookedness"
The author of this comparison should have gone half a step further to read the opening of the 2nd chapter, Al Baqarah, which laid a solid foundation for the verse above. Verse 2 of that chapter says:
" This is a perfect Book, there is no doubt in it, it is a guidance for the righteous. "
Pointed verses of these categories have motivated more serious minded scholars, such as William Muir in history to carry out intensive studies of the Quranic texts in order to bring out the human elements contained in it.
Unfortunately, their studies ended up compelling most of them to admit the Divinity of the Qur'an. Kenneth Craig even went far in his " Qur'an - A Scripture for the Arabs?
In Salman Rushdie's work, the objective was to discredit the Qur'an. The conception of the satanic verses was a satiric process. It was not intended as an equivalent literature hence the comparison has no basis ab initio.
Rather than reading it in the context of blasphemy, the comparison is just an intellectual exercise aimed at soliciting study materials for further research. The satanic verses are just too vague, derisive and twisted. The Qur'an is absolutely incomparable as a work of Theosophy.
On Tue, Aug 16, 2022, 8:11 PM Toyin Falola <toyin...@austin.utexas.edu> wrote:
Will this not pass for blasphemy?
From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com <usaafric...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Oluwatoyin Adepoju <ovde...@gmail.com>
Date: Tuesday, August 16, 2022 at 2:04 PM
To: usaafricadialogue <usaafric...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Muhammed's Koran and Salman Rushdie's The Satanic Verses: A Comparative Reading
Muhammed's Koran and Salman Rushdie's The Satanic Verses
A Comparative Reading
Oluwatoyin Vincent Adepoju
Compcros<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Fdanteadinkra.wixsite.com*2Fcompcros&data=05*7C01*7C*7C9d425f77bca7471b31eb08da7fba3090*7C31d7e2a5bdd8414e9e97bea998ebdfe1*7C0*7C0*7C637962734899983665*7CUnknown*7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0*3D*7C3000*7C*7C*7C&sdata=nVQdRRMKqnqn3lqz3ww6Si7D*2FldMNtgW67xIZ*2F8SS3Y*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUl!!HXCxUKc!2T6s8qoyszZRxfuXhMW9UEWKijywWMMtF4_v_-w12TcyxXtBEs1pTTySa_DnbZ6_2LQv6wLXef9mrV83966WAUu9$>
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Harrow, Kenneth
Sent: Sunday, September 4, 2022 4:37 PM
To: usaafric...@googlegroups.com <usaafric...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Muhammed's Koran and Salman Rushdie's The Satanic Verses: A Comparative Reading
Sent: 26 August 2022 12:26
To: USA Africa Dialogue Series <usaafric...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Muhammed's Koran and Salman Rushdie's The Satanic Verses: A Comparative Reading
Homosexuality has never been criminalised in Benin, Burkina Faso, Ivory Coast, Democratic Republic of the Congo, Djibouti, Equatorial Guinea, Madagascar, Mali, Niger, and Rwanda. It has been decriminalised in Angola, Botswana, Cape Verde, Gabon, Guinea-Bissau, Lesotho, Mozambique, São Tomé and Príncipe, the Seychelles and South Africa. South Africa was the fifth country in the world to legalize same-sex marriage in November of 2006. LGBT anti-discrimination laws exist in seven African countries: Angola, Botswana, Cape Verde, Mauritius, Mozambique, Seychelles, and South Africa.
kenneth harrow
professor emeritus
dept of english
michigan state university
Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2022 9:45 AM
To: USA Africa Dialogue Series <usaafric...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Muhammed's Koran and Salman Rushdie's The Satanic Verses: A Comparative Reading
“more than half (52%) of American Muslims agreed that "society should approve of homosexuality."
First reaction :
From a Muslim point of view, it’s not a matter of what society approves, it’s a matter of what Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala/ God approves.
By “society”, I assume they mean American society not the worldwide community of Muslims known as the Ummah al-Islam
Everything is possible in the United States of America - the First Church of Satan in San Francisco , paedophile priests, hanky-panky with Monica Lewinsky and Bill Clinton’s Cuban Cigar, in the Oval Office, in Washington DC.
USA: When so-called US-certified Muslim leaders start legally conducting same-sex weddings in Mosques in the USA, one can only conclude that this is definitively one of the many sure signs that we are living in the last days !
Out of curiosity, I Googled this : Nation of Islam on LGBT
I would say the efforts are commendable, if the work was carried out as a social service outside of a religious context, nothing to do with prayer, mosques, condemnation, sins, haram etc…and nothing with the falsisfication/s of faith, the message of Islam - for example, the Muslim does ghusl after sexual intercourse before doing his salat at home or entering a mosque to pray. The mosque too is a holy place…
The sentence that begins with “A growing number of Islamic scholars, mainly in the West '' and all that follows in that trajectory is suspect - inevitably suspect of more uncle-tom-foolery by Islamic stooges who are being nicely brainwashed by their hosts in the interest of the Americanisation / coco-cola-i-zation of al-Islam. And of course, Professor Harrow would be the first standing in line to tell us about contextualisation, that wherever Islam goes, has gone, or went, Islam acquires or adapts to some local colour - so that there’s a Senegalese Islam, and a Nigerian Islam even if both follow Maliki fiqh.
And if Islam were to have taken over Sodom and Gomorrah - a rather bizarre extreme case to be sure, something like the MECCA Institute would have miraculously popped up to grant some accommodation, to show some love, compromise, compassion and understanding - and to even to argue with the Merciful Almighty about their ultimate doom in that one-time incident according to the Holy Bible.
Re - The Americanisation of Islam. Try this for size when it comes to conspiracy theories: Mossad 'likely' behind Salman Rushdie stabbing, claims Denver professor
There are many exhortations in the Quran which begin with “ O mankind” , emphasising the unity of humankind and of uttermost relevance here, Surah Al-Hujurat, ayat 13:
“O mankind! Lo! We have created you male and female, and have made you nations and tribes that ye may know one another. Lo! the noblest of you, in the sight of Allah, is the best in conduct. Lo! Allah is Knower, Aware.”
Whether we like it or not, It goes without saying, that the main reality that we have to contend with is that there are genuine LGBT people throughout humanity - and if we are to believe in what the Quran says, these males and females were created by God and that includes all nations, races, tribes, sub-tribes, religiously speaking, the Animists, Buddhists, Christians, Hindus, Idolaters, Jews, Monotheists, Pagans, Polytheists, and of course the various Muslim/ Islamic sections of humanity, as well as - from a - to z, the antisemites, those suffering from homophobia, islamophobia, and noxious racism…
So how does Islam and its various branches deal with the reality that circa 5% of the faithful are LGBT which is not a “disease” because they were either born that way - fitra - or were/are being influenced by local/ global environment and other cultural factors?
Since it is not a “disease/ illness”, the idea of corrective therapy/ deprogramming is out of the question. ( I remember that sometime in the early 1970s in Sweden an irresponsible someone had diagnosed homosexuality as an illness - the reaction was that on the following day, en masse gay people called in to report at their various work places to report that they were ill and could therefore not go to work “today”. The diagnosis “ illness” was retracted in less than 24 hours.
I think that I have reported to this forum how, once upon a time, as I was sitting on her bed beside her and the devil was whispering in my ear “ go ahead and seduce her” I was on the brink of wanting to “convert” a certain Carol - an Afro-American sister who was a captain in the US army? But I remembered just in the nick of time, how she had verbally mishandled a buddy of mine Tommy Powell (circa 197 cm tall, from Oakland, California) just a few hours earlier…
Islam’s LGBTQ people ought not to be ostracised - from mosques or communities and that’s precisely what happens when they form/are constituted into separate special needs communities.
In Senegal and India are they not a part and parcel of their various Islamic communities ( Not getting same-sex married in mosques, of course)? Of more pressing concern: LGBT in Muslim Nigeria
From experience, one knows that one does not have to believe everything that turns up in print, so, for verification and clarity I had to Google what popped up in your link: ”Ayatollah Khomeini declared transgender surgical operations allowable”
a brief search for "muslims in support of gay rights" turned up this:
". However, according to a recent survey by Public Religion Research Center, more than half (52%) of American Muslims ageed that "society should approve of homosexuality."
and this: "A growing number of Islamic scholars, mainly in the West, have started re-examining Islamic teachings on same-sex relationships and whether a blanket condemnation of LGBTQ people is a misinterpretation. There are also growing opportunities for alternative and meaningful worship and community. Muslims for Progressive Values (MPV) has founded Unity Mosques in Atlanta, GA; Columbus, OH; and Los Angeles, CA. The Muslim Alliance for Sexual and Gender Diversity hosts a retreat for LGBTQ Muslims in Pennsylvania each year. MECCA Institute was recently established as an online school for the study of an inclusive theology of Islam for those seeking more expansive and inclusive interpretations of Islamic texts. "
kenneth harrow
professor emeritus
dept of english
michigan state university
From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com <usaafric...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Cornelius Hamelberg <cornelius...@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2022 11:02 AM
To: USA Africa Dialogue Series <usaafric...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Muhammed's Koran and Salman Rushdie's The Satanic Verses: A Comparative Reading
All the points made by Kenneth Harrow could be taken seriously, sympathetically, without inflicting any harm on others or on the various societies, but when he says, that he has "no doubts progressive muslims can be found who also support gay rights and who can quote scripture to justify this", I believe that that kind of wishful thinking/ daydreaming has to be taken with a nip of salt.
I do not believe that any so-called “progressive Muslims” can quote any Islamic scriptures to justify or exonerate homosexuality. Maybe, such odd fellows can quote neo-Islamic scriptures of their own concoction and call the new religions " Homosexualism", " Lesbianism" and "Transgenderism" and adopt Allen Ginsberg’s Footnote to Howl as one of their main scriptures.
On the contrary, we are to expect extreme hostility, not least of all from the likes of Sheikh Yasser Habib who has his own tough scripture-based views on homosexuality
As we ramble and rumble on about these matters we ought not to forget the main issue in this thread and what Kenneth has said so far seems to tally with what’s written here about the attack on Sir Ahmed Salman Rushdie
On Wednesday, 24 August 2022 at 16:21:53 UTC+2 Kenneth Harrow wrote:
i don't know how others on the list feel about gay rights. i believe they are as fundamental as any other rights to which people have claims. i have a lesbian granddaughter. i have gay friends-- women men trans; i know enough about their movement in the past 50 years to believe in it as a civil rights movement with the same basic goals as the civil rights movement, and all movements that assert the rights of muslims, jews, christians, and all people of faith, to be able to practice their religions.
i don't believe that right means censoring others. nor do i believe that the meaning of the words of any holy text can be interpreted in only one authorized way, or that any interpretation justifies abusing others because they are gay.for instance, in the jewish bible there are horrible passages condemning gay practices. but in rabbinic judaism the texts get reread/reinterpreted, and in current judaism, outside ultraorthodox, gay rights are and people widely accepted--welcomed. christianity is also divided on it. i have no doubts progressive muslims can be found who also support gay rights and who can quote scripture to justify this.
i don't believe it is the right of the west to impose its own beliefs on africans. i don't believe that africans all think with one mind, so that you can say Senegalese are opposed to gay rights. some are opposed--perhaps most, although that is not clear. les hommes-femmes (goorgui-jenn)have been in senegal for centuries, especially in saint louis. i know there are senegalese who believe in gay rights; and i imagine there is not a single african country where there is not some degree of this struggle. i know south africa is probably exemplary in the world in its laws on gay rights.i know there was a gay community, underground, in cameroon when we lived there in the 70s. i know it is a maajor movement in nigeria, kenya, and many other places.
my point is that it an issue of struggle in contemporary africa, and we have the right to align ourselves on either side and claim other africans are also engaged in this struggle.... it is not fixed or decided, or frozen. i would want to side with jo ramaka, a great filmmaker, in his right to make Karmen Gei, a great film, and to have senegalese people see the film and decide for themselves how they feel about it.
ken
From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com <usaafric...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Cornelius Hamelberg <cornelius...@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2022 8:16 AM
To: USA Africa Dialogue Series <usaafric...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Muhammed's Koran and Salman Rushdie's The Satanic Verses: A Comparative Reading
Still on the matter of censorship - let’s move on to the censorship of advocacy e.g. the advocacy of gay rights which Barack Obama did in Goree, Senegal, his emphasis that all men are equal, not that some men and women are more equal than others, before the law, sort of ignoring the role that culture and deep-seated tradition play in this matter of gay rights. And of course, in Senegal, I daresay on the issue of Islam and gay rights, the message of Islam trumps the message and recommendations of Barack Hussein Obama. The fact is, that Mr Obama’s recommendations could not possibly be implemented overnight just because he believes himself to be the persuasive voice of justice and reason. The country would have to be prepared for the transition to the new reality over a period of time. The country would have to be educated to not merely tolerate or accept but also to respect “ La Difference ''. The glorification of LGBT would not sit well with Senegal’s imams, the various Sufi brotherhoods and the general laity. Right now, things are perfect, the way they think that they are supposed to be….
There’s also medicine, science and technology, art, popular music, theatre, cinema, business, sports…
After hitting the send button to dispatch my last post, I realised that I could have opened a raw nerve and was treading on dangerous ground - as in “ tread softly because you tread on my dreams” that the mood should be more of - as the Lord commanded Moses - instead of which - no laughing matter, dear Moses HIT the rock - just as I hit the send button -the same lesson to be learned by all of us the angry ones:
The Lord spoke to Moses, saying:
“Take the staff and assemble the congregation, you and your brother Aaron, and speak to the rock in their presence so that it will give forth its water. You shall bring forth water for them from the rock and give the congregation and their livestock to drink.”
Moses took the staff from before the Lord as He had commanded him.
Moses and Aaron assembled the congregation in front of the rock, and he said to them, "Now listen, you rebels, can we draw water for you from this rock?”
Moses raised his hand and struck the rock with his staff twice when an abundance of water gushed forth, and the congregation and their livestock drank
The Lord said to Moses and Aaron, "Since you did not have faith in Me to sanctify Me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore you shall not bring this assembly to the Land which I have given them.”
These are the waters of dispute [Mei Meribah] where the children of Israel contended with the Lord, and He was sanctified through them
Nowadays, same-sex marriages are being celebrated in some churches and some synagogues. For me, it’s difficult to envisage this happening in the world of al-Islam, in any mosque in Saudi Arabia, Iran or Somailiaany days soon, even if Joe Biden or his predecessor Barack Obama were to fly over to Saudi Arabia, Iran or Somalia to advocate the legalisation of LGBT. Can anyone here imagine Donald Trump having the temerity to fly over to Goree in Senegal to tell the people there to legalise it? Shit? Of course, Trump would never do that - and Obama, seen here bowing to the Saudi King, wouldn’t dare to fly over to Saudi Arabia or Iran or Somalia to tell them to “legalise” LGBT. So why does he fly over to Senegal to deliver such a message? The reason. His love for a brother nation
That “Pride Sabbath” was celebrated in many places: should come as no surprise, since there are gay rabbis and possibly gay rabbits too. Considering all that Paul has said about homosexuality if he were to resurrect and be with us right now to observe what’s going on, he would probably experience a second death - as he himself has said, “ I die daily”. Jesus on the other hand has already said “ Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone!”
Senegal: Mbalax 2019
On Tuesday, 23 August 2022 at 15:05:29 UTC+2 Cornelius Hamelberg wrote:
Dear Kenneth,
I have always thought that compared to many other Muslim places - e.g Afghanistan, Senegal is a relatively much “free-er” society - and that the women are a lot “ free-er”, perhaps, because the Wolof woman, just like the Kalabari woman, is not subjected to the controversial FGM.
But, that’s very good news coming from Senegal, that the Tijanis or the Mourides ( maybe both?) took on the mantle of guardians and protectors of morality in Senegal, saw it as their religious duty to prevent the promotion/ dissemination of lesbian cinema in the country and that this happened before the Obama era. Some of my Senegalese brothers are still so pissed with apostle Obama’s 2013 visit to Senegal, in which his main message was that Senegal should legalese homosexuality and lesbianism. Did he fly all the way from the White House in Washington D.C to Gorée to deliver this low blow to the moral fabric of Senegalese Civilisation? Not that homosexuality and lesbianism don’t exist on the quiet ( Baba Kadiri will probably say that the decadence was imported from France as part of their cultural assimilation policy ) but to legalise it, give it equal rights with the heterosexuality of our forefathers and mothers in Amadou Bamba and Cheikh Anta Diop country? The gumption. Who does the miscreant Barack Hussein Obama think that he really is? Was?
I have tracked the movie down : Karmen Geï ) 1 hour and 22 minutes - will probably have to skip the boring and haram pornographic bits). Apparently, it caused quite a splash, at the time. Fast forward, is there now an official censorship board in Senegal, and if so, could the film now pass the litmus test? Would it be banned in Tunisia? Nigeria?
Whilst in London earlier this month one of my close relatives said that she had attended a lesbian wedding the previous day ( a quite pagan ceremony) between a director of prison and one of the prison wardens there - as we discussed the matter, the brilliant lawyer among us said that the relationship could lead to a conflict of interests - possible - hypothetical scenarios with regard to taking disciplinary measures ( nepotism not being the order of the day when it comes to law enforcement in Merry England)
The Muslim Who Fought French Colonialism Through Non-Violence
On Tuesday, 23 August 2022 at 09:28:50 UTC+2 Kenneth Harrow wrote:
dear corneliusyes, there is an african film, quite a great film, that was subject to religious censorship, and its showing was c losed down thanks to threats from either the tijanis or mourids, i forget who. it was awful, like all religious excesses, extremes and censoring. the film was jo ramaka's Karmen Gei. in the film,m karmen has a lesbian affair with the prison warden, a first in afr film (first in its actual depiction of their lovemaking).the prison warden subsequently dies, and karmen attends the funeral and sings a mourid threnody.the sacrilege was in singing that song in the film....or so they said. it was probably the lesbianism that set them off.the theatre was threatened with being burnt down, so they cancelled the showing. i don't know if jo had to leave town till it died down. since then he's returned and lived in dakar on and off.
ken
From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com <usaafric...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Cornelius Hamelberg <cornelius...@gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, August 22, 2022 6:37 PM
To: USA Africa Dialogue Series <usaafric...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Muhammed's Koran and Salman Rushdie's The Satanic Verses: A Comparative Reading
Dear Kenneth,
It was a wonderful evening with Orchestra Baobab. Sat in the second row with the .V.I.Ps
You must have seen them many times in Senegal.
Obviously, this brothel business of Rushdie’s is a fulfilment of these lines by Literature Nobel Laureate Dylan:
“And if my thought-dreams could be seen.
They'd probably put my head in a guillotine”
Perhaps, there’s the same confusion about Jesus walking on water as reported in the Gospels according to Matthew and the Gospel according to Mark.
Whereas some critics have pointed out that this was Peter, dreaming, preacher man insists that Jesus actually walked on water.
Some Hindus enumerate walking on water as a Siddhi that can be acquired by advanced yogis.
Another siddhi is levitation. There are many different siddhis. Maybe, unbeknownst to us, Rudi Guiliani has some secret siddhis that we have never heard about. How do we know that he hasn’t? It could be an epistemological problem. Likewise, for all we know the miscreant Rushdie could be shuffering from demon-possession, the kind of demon that does his wudu with his urine and is in dire need of some exorcism.
Preacherman also says that “ Faith can move mountains” ( mountains of problems)
“ And Jesus was a sailor when he walked upon the water” ( Leonard Cohen)
With e.g. “Jesus Christ Superstar “ in mind, are there any Rushdie-like problems to be anticipated in e.g. African cinema? ( A death fatwa on the actors and the producer. Maybe blow up the whole theatre and the audience therein. Thy kingdom come , Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Send them all to hell directly, with a one-way ticket. And don’t ever let them come back here.
Re - your footnote:
How does
compare with
On Monday, 22 August 2022 at 19:35:32 UTC+2 Kenneth Harrow wrote:
dear cornelius, with respect, rushdie doesn't place the wives of mohamed in a brothel, his character imagines this.why the distinction? on the one hand, you are right to say, there's no difference: he, the author, made up this vision and placed it in the imaginary of his character, whom he also created.on the other hand, the imaginary is a mediated one, not something presented as mimesis or a direction reflection of a reality.
i have read many many books where the mediations of reality present us with images of degradation and dissolution. try Last Exit to Brooklyn, or the "trash" cinemas of brazil or many others.
i don't want some good hearted religious authority to tell us what to deploy in our creations--be they art with elephant dung or anything else. it takes a giuliani to try to shut down the brookllyn museum. perhaps he might wind up burning dante's inferno with the elephant dung? why not? he is comfortable with a world ruled by maniacal power, which he tried to deploy to overthrow the elections. is he to be our guide though the "selva selvaggiaa"?
ken
From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com <usaafric...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Cornelius Hamelberg <cornelius...@gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, August 22, 2022 11:35 AMSubject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Muhammed's Koran and Salman Rushdie's The Satanic Verses: A Comparative Reading
Dear Sir and dear fellow Muslim sympathiser,
As the saying goes, let us be prepared to go as he or she who goes furthest in this matter.
This is no secondary matter. It’s a matter of common decency, not hypocrisy and double standards. We know the importance of the mother in Islam.
The Quran states “The wives of the Prophet are like your mothers” ( - i-e deserving of your respect)
With this understanding, who in his right mind and in good conscience should not react when Rushdie in his "The Satanic Verses", dives into the lowest immoral pit by actually placing the wives of the Prophet of Islam, sallallahu alaihi wa salaam in a whorehouse/ brothel? ????
In 1989, In "How Salman Rushdie Fooled the West", Ahmed Deedat takes up other items of rudeness liberally scattered throughout magnum opus, " The Satanic Verses"
On Monday, 22 August 2022 at 12:45:43 UTC+2 drsikir...@gmail.com wrote:
Sir,Your question on the futility of arguing with a mad man summarises the difference between a learned person and an illiterate who considers himself an authority in any religion because he is able to speak Arabic or because he memorises Bible verses or Ifa corpus.Ordinarily, the Qur'an addresses this question as follows:"The likeness of those who were made to bear the Book but would not bear it, is as THE LIKENESS OF AN ASS CARRYING A LOAD OF BOOKS..."Qur'an 62 verse 6.In several other places, the Qur'an emphasises that it addresses the "Ulul Albaab" ( people of logical reasoning or understanding)hence, the Prophetic clarification in the Sahib that "Laa diina li maa laa aqla lahuu (There is no religion for whoever lacks the sense of reasoning).Islam has been so lucky that the Divinity and the universality of the Qur'an cannot be distorted nor interpolated.What happened therefore is that overzealots have exploited the secondary sources of the Shari'ah viz the Ijma' ( consensus of opinion of Muslim jurists) and the Qiyas (Analogical deductions) to proliferate various schools of thoughts that are opposed to orthodox interpretations.As it is happening in Christianity where many adherents see their pastors as infallible and God incarnate, it is worse in Islam.This is the major cause of the criminal manipulations of Islamic traditions in Nigeria among some Southern and most especially Northern extremist groups.The injunctions of Islam are very clear on all issues. The circumstances of such traditions are also clear. Owing however to particularistic tendencies of sectarian groups, crimes are committed and teachings are perverted. Some of the teachings of Islam that are perverted by overzealous include but not limited to apostasy, feminism, child upbringing, polygamy, divorce and inheritance etc.Unfortunately, many media houses are not charitable in the reportage of religious crimes across all religions and ethnic groups. Child and women rights' abuses, sexual crimes, deprivation of inheritance rights, class discrimination, labour exploitation and slave wages etc are all contemporary issues and recurring decimals in all religions in Nigeria.On despicable fact which is distorting the understanding of these issues is the ethnic and religious profiling of crimes and criminals.As it were, crime has no colouration, ethnic or religious. While terrorism is rampant in the North owing to our porous borders, ritual killings in the south has reached a level of a national emergency. Unfortunately, the fixation is politically on the North while the network of kidnappers and extra judicial killings in the south are under reported.
On Wed, Aug 17, 2022, 11:24 AM Cornelius Hamelberg <cornelius...@gmail.com> wrote:
Compared with the Quran, there's no choice other than 100% agreement with what you say about Rushdie's extended phantasmagorical nonsense
Just a short question.
By the same yardstick, regarding Sacred Texts, what do we have to say about Dante’s Divine Comedy?
Should a fatwa carrying or recommending the death penalty be passed on him, his publishers, distributors and readers, currently and posthumously?
In the modern world, what is supposed to be the fate of what’s perceived as satirical, ireverential, blasphemous, anti-religious fiction, or poetry, music, drama, art, outside the jurisdiction of the thought-police and e.g. the Ayatollahs?
Must we always have to argue with a madman?
Perhaps, whilst you are at it Sir, you could take a little time out to answer the question WHAT MAKES ISLAM SO DIFFERENT
On Wednesday, 17 August 2022 at 01:12:33 UTC+2 drsikir...@gmail.com wrote:
In the intellectual world, a writer is a literary artist who designs ideas with words and expressions. Most at times, the writer travels far into his world of imagination. He then requires a very sophisticated audience of the caliber of this global Forum to actually discern his message.In discerning the message, a critic could validate or invalidate the presented hypothesis.In the above context therefore, this write up is an attempt to compare the incomparable. The Qur'an is not just a Book of Worship. It is a compendium of Philosophy, Sociology, Physical and abstract Sciences and Jurisprudence. Rushdie's presentation is one of the most recent attempts of certain class of sceptics to disprove the Divinity of the Qur'an.Without being apologetic, as a scholar of Islamic Studies, there are intrinsic qualities that characterize the revelation, recording, compilation and the standardization of the Qur'an.For example, Surah Al Kahf, Chpt 18 of the Qur'an opens with an emphatic declaration as follows:"All praise belongs to Allah Who has sent down the Book to His servant, and has not placed therein any crookedness"The author of this comparison should have gone half a step further to read the opening of the 2nd chapter, Al Baqarah, which laid a solid foundation for the verse above. Verse 2 of that chapter says:" This is a perfect Book, there is no doubt in it, it is a guidance for the righteous. "Pointed verses of these categories have motivated more serious minded scholars, such as William Muir in history to carry out intensive studies of the Quranic texts in order to bring out the human elements contained in it.Unfortunately, their studies ended up compelling most of them to admit the Divinity of the Qur'an. Kenneth Craig even went far in his " Qur'an - A Scripture for the Arabs?In Salman Rushdie's work, the objective was to discredit the Qur'an. The conception of the satanic verses was a satiric process. It was not intended as an equivalent literature hence the comparison has no basis ab initio.Rather than reading it in the context of blasphemy, the comparison is just an intellectual exercise aimed at soliciting study materials for further research. The satanic verses are just too vague, derisive and twisted. The Qur'an is absolutely incomparable as a work of Theosophy.
On Tue, Aug 16, 2022, 8:11 PM Toyin Falola <toyin...@austin.utexas.edu> wrote:
Will this not pass for blasphemy?
From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com <usaafric...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Oluwatoyin Adepoju <ovde...@gmail.com>
Date: Tuesday, August 16, 2022 at 2:04 PM
To: usaafricadialogue <usaafric...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Muhammed's Koran and Salman Rushdie's The Satanic Verses: A Comparative Reading
Muhammed's Koran and Salman Rushdie's The Satanic Verses
A Comparative Reading
''Everyone, Muslims and Non-Muslims, Should Read Salman Rushdie's Satanic Verses'', Oluwatoyin Vincent Adepoju
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Oluwatoyin Adepoju
As a Nigerian African, I have always believed that if there is one God that created this world and all human beings inside it with different languages, that Almighty God ought to have delivered His messages in all the languages He has created to each linguistic group, if the messages concern all His creations. Since I am neither a Hebrew nor an Arab, I do not commit blasphemy if I don't believe in Moses, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Yeshua Hamashiach (alias Jesus Christ), Allah or Mohammed. Those religious deities never spoke my mother tongue and whatever they proclaimed that God had told them was for their own linguistic group and not for me or any other citizens of Black African nations. In view of the aforesaid, no leader of a government of any country has the right to pronounce death sentence on a person for religious sake as it was in the case of Salman Rushdie who was not even a citizen of Iran. Instead of defending his fundamental human rights to freedom of speech and expression, his unfortunate situation is being exploited to propagate for legal acceptance of sexual perversities in the world.
Derailing the discussion on Wednesday, August 24, 2022, Kenneth Harrow wrote, "I don't know how others on this list feel about gay rights. I believe they are as fundamental as any other rights to which people have claims. I have a lesbian granddaughter. I have gay friends - women, men trans; I know enough about their movement in the past 50 years to believe in it as a civil rights movement with the same basic goals as the civil rights movement and all movements that assert the rights of Muslims, Jews, Christians, and all people of faith, to be able to practice their religions." Gay is a U.S. euphemism invented to name the homosexuals, that is to say, men who are sexually attracted to men, the so-called same-sex intercourse. Similarly, a woman who is sexually attracted to women is called a lesbian or a tribade. Why should homosexual rights be equated to the African American civil rights movement of the 1960s? In his speech titled, The Ballot or the Bullet, Malcolm X gave a gist of what civil rights movement was about. Hear him, "If you and I were Americans, there'd be no problem. Those Hunkies that just got off the boat, they're already Americans; Polacks are already Americans; the Italian refugees are already Americans. Everything that came out of Europe, every blue-eyed thing, is already an American. And as long as you and I have been over here, we aren't Americans yet. ...//... Being born here in America doesn't make you an American. Why, if birth made you American, you wouldn't need any legislation, you wouldn't need any amendments to the Constitution, you wouldn't be faced with civil-rights filibustering in Washington, D.C., right now. They don't have to pass civil-rights legislation to make a Pollack an American (p.25-26, Malcolm X Speaks)." Of recent, I read in the newspapers that 48 States in the U.S., have enacted electoral laws that will prevent Blacks in particular to vote in elections. Although, an African American was president of the U.S., for eight years, it did not prevent the slaughter of Black Americans in the streets like rams, culminating in Black Lives Matter demonstrations. It is demeaning to the entire Black race to reduce the segregation and confinement of African Americans to ghettos, denial of access to quality education and the right to vote in elections to the rights of homosexual to copulate freely with one another. Homosexuality is a self-preferred or a self-imposed behaviour because it is unnatural for two heterosexuals to give birth to a homosexual child unless one is talking of a deformed child.
Human beings are not self-pollinating like flowers and as such males and females have to engage in sexual intercourse in order to procreate. In case of assisted pregnancy, the ingredients for In-Vitro-Fertility (IVF) are collected from both a male and a female. Biologically and genetically, every child has a maternal and paternal origin and it cannot be denied that every child is a product of heterosexuality. Unlike animals, human beings don't copulate publicly but discreetly and whatever any grown-up male and female do with themselves inside a locked door is their business and not the concern or duty of anyone to approve or disapprove. Whether for recreation or for procreation, coitus is only natural and normal between a male and a female. The question that follows is what do the homosexuals do sexually that made Kenneth Harrow to elevate their acquired sexual practices to civil rights or fundamental human rights? In his article titled, The Clinical Approach to the Male Homosexual Patient, published in the Med Clinics of North America 1986 vol.70 : p.499-535; Dr William F. Owen Jr., MD, a physician in San Francisco, California, listed sexual behaviours practised by homosexuals of which few are worthy to recall here. (1) Anogenital insertion which is insertion of penis into a male partner's rectum/anus, the so-called anal intercourse. (2) Anogenital reception which is recipient of partner's penis into the rectum/anus. (3) Oro-genital insertion which is insertion of penis into partner's mouth. (4) Oro-genital reception, also called Fellatio, which is recipient of partner's penis into the mouth. (5) Ano-digital insertion which is insertion of finger into partner's rectum /anus. (6) Ano-digital reception which is recipient of partner's finger into the rectum/anus. (7) Ano-manual insertion which is insertion of hand/arm (fist) into partner's rectum/anus. (8) Ano-manual reception which is to receive partner's hand/arm (fist) into the rectum/anus. (9) Oro-anal insertion, also called anilingus, is insertion of tongue into partner's anus to lick it. And (10) Oro-anal reception which is receiving partner's licking tongue on the anus. Among his homosexual patients Dr William F, Owens found men who were afflicted with gonorrhoea of the throat, syphilis of the lip, gonococcal abscess of the rectum, and herpes of the anus after anal and oral sex. One does not need to be a certified religious fanatic to be horrified by what neo-liberal pass off as legitimate homosexual civil rights that must be respected. Anatomically, the anus is not constructed to receive things from below but for the exit of faecal matter, in addition for farting. Mouth too is anatomically constructed to eat food, drink and talk. Neither the mouth nor the anus is a sexual organ. Those are biological facts and not social construction.
In his 1989 book titled, THE MYTH OF HETEROSEXUAL AIDS - HOW A TRAGEDY HAS BEEN DISTORTED BY THE MEDIA AND PARTISAN POLITICS, Michael Fumento wrote about the danger of anal sexual intercourse as follows : The reason for the danger of anal sex in the era of AIDS is in part the difference between the tissue construction of the male urethra and rectum and the female vagina. While the vagina is constructed of tough plate-like cells that resists rupture and infectious agents, and are designed to withstand the motions of intercourse and childbirth, the urethra and rectum are constructed primarily of columnar cells which tear or rupture easily. This allows semen to enter the more readily accessible blood vessels of the rectum or conversely, allows blood from a ruptured rectum to seep into the urethra of the inserted partner in anal intercourse. ..... The vagina provides natural lubrication, whereas there is little in the anus. Anal douching, a practice many homosexuals engage in prior to anal intercourse, can remove what lubrication the anus has ... Non-lubrication not only increases the chance of ruptures but at the same time reduces the efficiency of the condom, which many have touted as the way to turn unsafe homosexual sex into safe sex. The condom has a considerably higher breakage rate during anal sex... (p.45-46). In a note on page 49, Fumento wrote that the homosexuals claim that the anus is not inferior to vagina as a receiver of the penis (anus = vagina). Therefore, according to the homosexuals, homosexuality is as natural as heterosexuality. That anus is not equal to vagina one has to compare what happens when the anus or the vagina is penetrated with the penis.
"The homosexuals," Joan Shenton wrote, "inhaled poppers - amyl and butyl nitrites. This drug was regularly used to enhance sexual pleasure and in particular to help dilate the anal orifice and allow 'fisting' (brachioproctal intercourse in the aggressively promiscuous lifestyle .... The new-found sexual freedom that followed the gay liberation movement ... led some gay men into a fast track, high risk lifestyle, where DRUG-ASSISTED SEX became a necessary part of their daily life .... (p. xx, POSSITIVELY FALSE - EXPOSING THE MYTHS AROUND HIV AND AIDS, 1998)." Concerning drug-assisted sex that enables homosexuals to sexually penetrate each other's anus with penis Professor Peter H. Duesberg wrote, "During the 1960s, male homosexuals discovered the aphrodisiac effects of nitrites. Receptive anal intercourse became less painful because the anal sphincter (muscle) would relax; therefore, receptive men used far more of the drug than did their inserting partners. Nitrites also helped maintain erections and intensified orgasm, and some users even claimed euphoric 'high' (p. 270, Inventing the AIDS Virus by Peter H. Duesberg)." In another book titled, AIDS : VIRUS or DRUG INDUCED, Peter H. Duesberg affirmed, "Male homosexual relationships without anal intercourse or injections of drugs are not associated with AIDS; neither is lesbianism. AIDS began and prevailed among ... passive male, and sometimes female, recipients of anal intercourse. This is because the rectal mucosa and its supporting tissues are relatively fragile, designed for excretory, not intrusive activity. When the thin submucosa is eroded and blood vessels are damaged, the tissues and blood stream are opened to invasion by all the organisms of the faecal microflora, by the pathogens of all the sexually transmitted diseases, and many others (p. 177)." If anus were equal to vagina, childbirth would have been occurring through the anus and not through the vagina.
As if the greatest problem confronting Africa is the establishment of homosexual lifestyle, Kenneth Harrow has reproduced a Wikipedia list of African countries that have never criminalised homosexuality and those that have decriminalised it, including the one that has legalised same sex marriage and in addition to those countries that have enacted LGBT anti-discrimination laws. Of course, many African leaders were frightened by President Obama's threat of economic sanction against any African country that did not decriminalize homosexuality in 2014, although as of that time in the U.S., homosexuality was legal only in 17 out 50 U.S., States. www.vanguardngr.com/2014/01/gay-marriage-law-us-threatens-sanction-nigeria/
I am not sure of other indigenous languages in Africa, but in my own mother tongue there is no word for homosexuality, lesbian, oral and anal sex or rape because they are never practised. As bad as we think African leaders are, none of them has ever behaved as President Bil Clinton who in the Oval Office area, thrusted a Cuban cigar into the vagina of Monica Lewinsky and licked it up. And when the blue gown of Monica Lewinsky stained with the sperm of President Clinton surfaced during his impeachment, he admitted inserting his penis into the mouth of Miss Lewinsky for active oral sex. When the economic and industrial development of the U.S., and Western Europe were at the same level as African countries are today, homosexuality was forbidden in their laws. So, why can't U.S., and her allied global ruler uplift Africa to the same level of economic and industrial development they are today before demanding that Africans should adopt their system of sexual perversities as a way of life?
In Africa, two or more women can agree to share a man as a husband, which is called polygamy. But polygamy is criminalized as bigamy in Europe and the U.S. A man who marries more than one wife in the U.S., will be guilty of bigamy and shall be punished by a fine of $500 and in addition to imprisonment for a term of not more than five years. I will like to know from Kenneth Harrow if the civil right of two women agreeing to marry the same man as their husband or a man marrying to two wives is less than that of homosexual (same-sex) marriage? If your answer is positive, why?
S. Kadiri
From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com <usaafric...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Harrow, Kenneth <har...@msu.edu>
Sent: 26 August 2022 12:26
To: USA Africa Dialogue Series <usaafric...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Muhammed's Koran and Salman Rushdie's The Satanic Verses: A Comparative Reading
from, wikipediaHomosexuality has never been criminalised in Benin, Burkina Faso, Ivory Coast, Democratic Republic of the Congo, Djibouti, Equatorial Guinea, Madagascar, Mali, Niger, and Rwanda. It has been decriminalised in Angola, Botswana, Cape Verde, Gabon, Guinea-Bissau, Lesotho, Mozambique, São Tomé and Príncipe, the Seychelles and South Africa. South Africa was the fifth country in the world to legalize same-sex marriage in November of 2006. LGBT anti-discrimination laws exist in seven African countries: Angola, Botswana, Cape Verde, Mauritius, Mozambique, Seychelles, and South Africa.
the aarticle goes on to state alll the horrible ways gays are also punished/made illlegall etc in various africa states, the worst also including...northern nigeria. my point is simply that it is an ongoing struggle.
kenneth harrow
professor emeritus
dept of english
michigan state university
From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com <usaafric...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Cornelius Hamelberg <cornelius...@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2022 9:45 AM
To: USA Africa Dialogue Series <usaafric...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Muhammed's Koran and Salman Rushdie's The Satanic Verses: A Comparative Reading
“more than half (52%) of American Muslims agreed that "society should approve of homosexuality."
First reaction :
From a Muslim point of view, it’s not a matter of what society approves, it’s a matter of what Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala/ God approves.
By “society”, I assume they mean American society not the worldwide community of Muslims known as the Ummah al-Islam
Everything is possible in the United States of America - the First Church of Satan in San Francisco , paedophile priests, hanky-panky with Monica Lewinsky and Bill Clinton’s Cuban Cigar, in the Oval Office, in Washington DC.
USA: When so-called US-certified Muslim leaders start legally conducting same-sex weddings in Mosques in the USA, one can only conclude that this is definitively one of the many sure signs that we are living in the last days !
Out of curiosity, I Googled this : Nation of Islam on LGBT
I would say the efforts are commendable, if the work was carried out as a social service outside of a religious context, nothing to do with prayer, mosques, condemnation, sins, haram etc…and nothing with the falsisfication/s of faith, the message of Islam - for example, the Muslim does ghusl after sexual intercourse before doing his salat at home or entering a mosque to pray. The mosque too is a holy place…
The sentence that begins with “A growing number of Islamic scholars, mainly in the West '' and all that follows in that trajectory is suspect - inevitably suspect of more uncle-tom-foolery by Islamic stooges who are being nicely brainwashed by their hosts in the interest of the Americanisation / coco-cola-i-zation of al-Islam. And of course, Professor Harrow would be the first standing in line to tell us about contextualisation, that wherever Islam goes, has gone, or went, Islam acquires or adapts to some local colour - so that there’s a Senegalese Islam, and a Nigerian Islam even if both follow Maliki fiqh.
And if Islam were to have taken over Sodom and Gomorrah - a rather bizarre extreme case to be sure, something like the MECCA Institute would have miraculously popped up to grant some accommodation, to show some love, compromise, compassion and understanding - and to even to argue with the Merciful Almighty about their ultimate doom in that one-time incident according to the Holy Bible.
Re - The Americanisation of Islam. Try this for size when it comes to conspiracy theories: Mossad 'likely' behind Salman Rushdie stabbing, claims Denver professor
There are many exhortations in the Quran which begin with “ O mankind” , emphasising the unity of humankind and of uttermost relevance here, Surah Al-Hujurat, ayat 13:
“O mankind! Lo! We have created you male and female, and have made you nations and tribes that ye may know one another. Lo! the noblest of you, in the sight of Allah, is the best in conduct. Lo! Allah is Knower, Aware.”
Whether we like it or not, It goes without saying, that the main reality that we have to contend with is that there are genuine LGBT people throughout humanity - and if we are to believe in what the Quran says, these males and females were created by God and that includes all nations, races, tribes, sub-tribes, religiously speaking, the Animists, Buddhists, Christians, Hindus, Idolaters, Jews, Monotheists, Pagans, Polytheists, and of course the various Muslim/ Islamic sections of humanity, as well as - from a - to z, the antisemites, those suffering from homophobia, islamophobia, and noxious racism…
So how does Islam and its various branches deal with the reality that circa 5% of the faithful are LGBT which is not a “disease” because they were either born that way - fitra - or were/are being influenced by local/ global environment and other cultural factors?
Since it is not a “disease/ illness”, the idea of corrective therapy/ deprogramming is out of the question. ( I remember that sometime in the early 1970s in Sweden an irresponsible someone had diagnosed homosexuality as an illness - the reaction was that on the following day, en masse gay people called in to report at their various work places to report that they were ill and could therefore not go to work “today”. The diagnosis “ illness” was retracted in less than 24 hours.
I think that I have reported to this forum how, once upon a time, as I was sitting on her bed beside her and the devil was whispering in my ear “ go ahead and seduce her” I was on the brink of wanting to “convert” a certain Carol - an Afro-American sister who was a captain in the US army? But I remembered just in the nick of time, how she had verbally mishandled a buddy of mine Tommy Powell (circa 197 cm tall, from Oakland, California) just a few hours earlier…
Islam’s LGBTQ people ought not to be ostracised - from mosques or communities and that’s precisely what happens when they form/are constituted into separate special needs communities.
In Senegal and India are they not a part and parcel of their various Islamic communities ( Not getting same-sex married in mosques, of course)? Of more pressing concern: LGBT in Muslim Nigeria
From experience, one knows that one does not have to believe everything that turns up in print, so, for verification and clarity I had to Google what popped up in your link: ”Ayatollah Khomeini declared transgender surgical operations allowable”
On Thursday, 25 August 2022 at 01:58:45 UTC+2 Kenneth Harrow wrote:
a brief search for "muslims in support of gay rights" turned up this:
". However, according to a recent survey by Public Religion Research Center, more than half (52%) of American Muslims ageed that "society should approve of homosexuality."
and this: "A growing number of Islamic scholars, mainly in the West, have started re-examining Islamic teachings on same-sex relationships and whether a blanket condemnation of LGBTQ people is a misinterpretation. There are also growing opportunities for alternative and meaningful worship and community. Muslims for Progressive Values (MPV) has founded Unity Mosques in Atlanta, GA; Columbus, OH; and Los Angeles, CA. The Muslim Alliance for Sexual and Gender Diversity hosts a retreat for LGBTQ Muslims in Pennsylvania each year. MECCA Institute was recently established as an online school for the study of an inclusive theology of Islam for those seeking more expansive and inclusive interpretations of Islamic texts. "
kenneth harrow
professor emeritus
dept of english
michigan state university
From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com <usaafric...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Cornelius Hamelberg <cornelius...@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2022 11:02 AM
To: USA Africa Dialogue Series <usaafric...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Muhammed's Koran and Salman Rushdie's The Satanic Verses: A Comparative Reading
All the points made by Kenneth Harrow could be taken seriously, sympathetically, without inflicting any harm on others or on the various societies, but when he says, that he has "no doubts progressive muslims can be found who also support gay rights and who can quote scripture to justify this", I believe that that kind of wishful thinking/ daydreaming has to be taken with a nip of salt.
I do not believe that any so-called “progressive Muslims” can quote any Islamic scriptures to justify or exonerate homosexuality. Maybe, such odd fellows can quote neo-Islamic scriptures of their own concoction and call the new religions " Homosexualism", " Lesbianism" and "Transgenderism" and adopt Allen Ginsberg’s Footnote to Howl as one of their main scriptures.
On the contrary, we are to expect extreme hostility, not least of all from the likes of Sheikh Yasser Habib who has his own tough scripture-based views on homosexuality
As we ramble and rumble on about these matters we ought not to forget the main issue in this thread and what Kenneth has said so far seems to tally with what’s written here about the attack on Sir Ahmed Salman Rushdie
On Wednesday, 24 August 2022 at 16:21:53 UTC+2 Kenneth Harrow wrote:
i don't know how others on the list feel about gay rights. i believe they are as fundamental as any other rights to which people have claims. i have a lesbian granddaughter. i have gay friends-- women men trans; i know enough about their movement in the past 50 years to believe in it as a civil rights movement with the same basic goals as the civil rights movement, and all movements that assert the rights of muslims, jews, christians, and all people of faith, to be able to practice their religions.
i don't believe that right means censoring others. nor do i believe that the meaning of the words of any holy text can be interpreted in only one authorized way, or that any interpretation justifies abusing others because they are gay.for instance, in the jewish bible there are horrible passages condemning gay practices. but in rabbinic judaism the texts get reread/reinterpreted, and in current judaism, outside ultraorthodox, gay rights are and people widely accepted--welcomed. christianity is also divided on it. i have no doubts progressive muslims can be found who also support gay rights and who can quote scripture to justify this.
i don't believe it is the right of the west to impose its own beliefs on africans. i don't believe that africans all think with one mind, so that you can say Senegalese are opposed to gay rights. some are opposed--perhaps most, although that is not clear. les hommes-femmes (goorgui-jenn)have been in senegal for centuries, especially in saint louis. i know there are senegalese who believe in gay rights; and i imagine there is not a single african country where there is not some degree of this struggle. i know south africa is probably exemplary in the world in its laws on gay rights.i know there was a gay community, underground, in cameroon when we lived there in the 70s. i know it is a maajor movement in nigeria, kenya, and many other places.
my point is that it an issue of struggle in contemporary africa, and we have the right to align ourselves on either side and claim other africans are also engaged in this struggle.... it is not fixed or decided, or frozen. i would want to side with jo ramaka, a great filmmaker, in his right to make Karmen Gei, a great film, and to have senegalese people see the film and decide for themselves how they feel about it.
ken
From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com <usaafric...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Cornelius Hamelberg <cornelius...@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2022 8:16 AM
To: USA Africa Dialogue Series <usaafric...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Muhammed's Koran and Salman Rushdie's The Satanic Verses: A Comparative Reading
Still on the matter of censorship - let’s move on to the censorship of advocacy e.g. the advocacy of gay rights which Barack Obama did in Goree, Senegal, his emphasis that all men are equal, not that some men and women are more equal than others, before the law, sort of ignoring the role that culture and deep-seated tradition play in this matter of gay rights. And of course, in Senegal, I daresay on the issue of Islam and gay rights, the message of Islam trumps the message and recommendations of Barack Hussein Obama. The fact is, that Mr Obama’s recommendations could not possibly be implemented overnight just because he believes himself to be the persuasive voice of justice and reason. The country would have to be prepared for the transition to the new reality over a period of time. The country would have to be educated to not merely tolerate or accept but also to respect “ La Difference ''. The glorification of LGBT would not sit well with Senegal’s imams, the various Sufi brotherhoods and the general laity. Right now, things are perfect, the way they think that they are supposed to be….
There’s also medicine, science and technology, art, popular music, theatre, cinema, business, sports…
After hitting the send button to dispatch my last post, I realised that I could have opened a raw nerve and was treading on dangerous ground - as in “ tread softly because you tread on my dreams” that the mood should be more of - as the Lord commanded Moses - instead of which - no laughing matter, dear Moses HIT the rock - just as I hit the send button -the same lesson to be learned by all of us the angry ones:
The Lord spoke to Moses, saying:
“Take the staff and assemble the congregation, you and your brother Aaron, and speak to the rock in their presence so that it will give forth its water. You shall bring forth water for them from the rock and give the congregation and their livestock to drink.”
Moses took the staff from before the Lord as He had commanded him.
Moses and Aaron assembled the congregation in front of the rock, and he said to them, "Now listen, you rebels, can we draw water for you from this rock?”
Moses raised his hand and struck the rock with his staff twice when an abundance of water gushed forth, and the congregation and their livestock drank
The Lord said to Moses and Aaron, "Since you did not have faith in Me to sanctify Me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore you shall not bring this assembly to the Land which I have given them.”
These are the waters of dispute [Mei Meribah] where the children of Israel contended with the Lord, and He was sanctified through them
Nowadays, same-sex marriages are being celebrated in some churches and some synagogues. For me, it’s difficult to envisage this happening in the world of al-Islam, in any mosque in Saudi Arabia, Iran or Somailiaany days soon, even if Joe Biden or his predecessor Barack Obama were to fly over to Saudi Arabia, Iran or Somalia to advocate the legalisation of LGBT. Can anyone here imagine Donald Trump having the temerity to fly over to Goree in Senegal to tell the people there to legalise it? Shit? Of course, Trump would never do that - and Obama, seen here bowing to the Saudi King, wouldn’t dare to fly over to Saudi Arabia or Iran or Somalia to tell them to “legalise” LGBT. So why does he fly over to Senegal to deliver such a message? The reason. His love for a brother nation
That “Pride Sabbath” was celebrated in many places: should come as no surprise, since there are gay rabbis and possibly gay rabbits too. Considering all that Paul has said about homosexuality if he were to resurrect and be with us right now to observe what’s going on, he would probably experience a second death - as he himself has said, “ I die daily”. Jesus on the other hand has already said “ Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone!”
Senegal: Mbalax 2019
Cornelius Hamelberg
A straight question :
How does Baba Kadiri feel about the piece of Civil Rights Legislation in the United States which forbids discrimination on the grounds of race, religion or sexuality?
With the greatest respect, I should like to take up a few issues with Baba Kadiri, the so-called African-Nigerian / “Nigerian African”, and as a stickler for the particular, if he wanted to be even more specific, for absolute accuracy he could have described himself as a bonafide Yoruba Nigerian Chauvinist in counter-distinction from other Nigerians of a slightly different ethnic and possibly slightly different ethical variation concerning values and worldview when it comes to the more universal category known as mankind.
Baba Kadiri would like us all to believe that his so-called ethical stand against gay rights is based on pre-colonial principles that have been intrinsic to natural law and Yoruba civilisation long before the advent of Judaism, Jesus’s Sermon on the Mount and the consequent missionary Christianity, not to mention the introduction of Islam to his fatherland, the latter two aforementioned world religions accounting for some 180 million adherents in his post-colonial Nigeria.
As he well knows, half of Nigeria’s Yoruba people are Muslim and the other half are Christian even if traditional Yoruba religion is the background from which all Yoruba people emerge. I don’t know whether it’s history, speculation or mere gossip that the Yoruba people originally came from Ancient Egypt. I don’t know how Baba Kadiri feels about this, but there’s an awful lot of tittle-tattle in Acedemia.edu that “The Yoruba People Came from Egypt”
With all of the above in mind, I think that it’s an extreme case of hubris for Baba Kadiri to go on repeating his position ad nausea that if Almighty God had wanted to get him on board then He should have addressed him directly in his mother tongue, from the very beginning. Has Baba Kadiri ever thought that maybe, the Almighty has a plan for all mankind?
For starters, I should recommend “ISLAM - Religion, History, Civilisation” by Seyyed Hossein Nasr. The introductory paragraphs should whet your appetite and cause you to reconsider the antagonism and disdain with which you dismiss the Messenger that is titled “A mercy to Mankind”
Leon Thomas: The Creator Has a Master Plan
Oluwatoyin Adepoju
Cornelius Hamelberg
It’s the same kind of propaganda that characterises all these ideas about “ The Noble Savage”. It’s the same kind of nostalgia - the longing to return to some beautiful fantasy of a pristine, Edenic epoch which never existed that animates many kinds of religious fundamentalism too.
Baba Kadiri has been telling us ad nauseam in this forum, that the pre-colonial, pre-Missionary Christian and Pre-Islamic Yorubaland was a veritable, primordial Garden of Eden ( without any subtle serpent of course - and he has told me personally that he doesn’t buy into the story idea that Eve was made from Adam’s rib) He has told us - as if indeed he was there and speaking from personal experience, that once upon a time before the evil missionary white man came and mucked up everything, there was no word for prostitute in the Yoruba language, for the simple reason that prostitution - said to be “ the world’s oldest profession” did not exist in Yorubaland. It could have existed in Mesopotamia or in Babylon, but not in Yorubaland. Ditto - homosexuality, lesbianism, transgender, bestiality etc . There are- no words for such transgressions in the ancient Yoruba language because such abomination never existed and was never practised in Yorubaland. Why? He says this is because it’s all contrary to human nature. Yoruba Human Nature
So how did Sodom and Gomorrah appear in the Hebrew Bible? Answer - that was not Yoruba human nature in action…
Shooting from both sides of his mouth, Baba Kadiri is saying that homophobia is an intrinsic part of the Yoruba Cultural norm since such phenomena are an abomination in Yoruba Culture/ Civilization and now exist as despicable accretions.
Speaking as a minor expert on the five schools of Islamic law with regard to Nikah, I believe that just as it should be difficult and even reprehensible - God forbid - to convert Baba Kadiri to homosexuality, so it should be difficult to convert a natural born homosexual person to hetero sexuality to become a connoisseur of the feminine mystique
The next question is, how are we to imagine Baba Kadiri relates to Bertrand Russell’s Marriage and Morals - penned circa 1929, long before the same-sex marriage revolution started gaining momentum in the West and in Western Dominions?
None of the above is frightening; we have yet to know whether or not Baba Kadiri endorses the death penalty
Salimonu Kadiri
Sent: 06 September 2022 12:58
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Oluwatoyin Adepoju
Harrow, Kenneth
Sent: Tuesday, September 6, 2022 8:20 AM
Cornelius Hamelberg
Salimonu Kadiri
Salimonu Kadiri
Sent: 06 September 2022 14:43
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Cornelius Hamelberg
Baba Kadiri,
You have made your point - and insist on sticking to what you believe, come what may.
You're not the kind of African President who would give in to threats of “sanctions”, boycotts, emotional blackmail, withdrawal of aid money, the indignity of being militarily escorted by INTERPOL to the ICC and possible castration or execution by firing squad if you do not obey Lucifer and his imperial demons.
Cheers.
Much as I hate hit-and-run arguments, it should be good to wrap this one up and bring it to an amicable close.
Just two matters I’d like to squeeze in -
If Baba Kadiri were to be appointed the moral inspector-general / Minister of Justice of the Nigerian Federation - including the twelve Northern Sharia states, what measures would he recommend in order to curb or turn the tide against the equal rights for LGBT fellow human beings whose main aim is also love? Listen in to Jeff Beck’s general plea: “We must make the changes From the basic situation”
Considering what sounds like an over-emphasis on polygamy, in the name of “ equal rights”, would Baba Kadiri be averse to the idea of polyandry - of course in the unbelieving sections of the Nigerian polity?
After your Parthian yab to our Hon. Friend Kenneth, the leader of the opposition, to my own relief your reply to me - less than a furlong-long “diatribe” was an anti-climax; so, instead of reaching for aspirin, by the time I got to your last sentence, “Why can't men masturbate instead of paying women to allow them deposit their'' whatever, I had arrived at instant relief. Of course, nothing like the sort of cosmic orgasms that the Major-General’s wife expects….
( BTW, I have an ex-Catholic friend who tells me that at the Catholic boarding school he attended - some of the nuns and priests terrorised them all day long with stories of hell, with shorter versions of the kind of sermon we find in Chapter 3 section 2 of Joyce’s A Portrait Of The Artist As A Young Man - he said that such was the anxiety that he felt about the threat that he was going to be sent to hell, that he couldn’t help it, he had to masturbate regularly, four to five times a day, to get instant relief from the fear and the tension that was piling up inside him…
Baba Kadiri, the sensational news headline that graced Bertrand Russel’s obituary - I think that it was in the Times, was a light-hearted, not so sombre pun that “ The Golden Mountain does not exist” – i-e. no longer existed. Isn’t that the same kind of conundrum we are in today when you say that because words for homosexuality etc, did not exist in the Yoruba language means that such a way of life never existed, not even underground behind the scenes, disguised, euphemistically - you know who creative language can be, to cover any exigencies. Back in the 60s, the President of Liberia for example used to phone the Saro head of state to discuss some “football match” - when in fact they were arranging some big diamond deal…
You also know that an explanation cannot always be substituted in lieu of proof!
Did you read, as always the very readable Russell when it comes to his social and political deliberations - aimed at a general public, this time his succinct - no Big Grammar, “Marriage and Morals” some of which I’m sure you found agreeable and true to modern Yoruba cultural norms. I actually thought of you when I read the following, under “Chapter III: Patriarchal Systems” :
“As soon as the physiological fact of paternity is recognized, a quite new element enters into paternal feeling, an element which has led almost everywhere to the creation of patriarchal societies. As soon as a father recognizes that the child is, as the Bible says, his "seed", his sentiment towards the child is reinforced by two factors, the love of power and the desire to survive death. The achievements of a man's descendants are in a sense his achievements, and their life is a continuation of his life. Ambition no longer finds its termination at the grave, but can be indefinitely extended through the careers of descendants. Consider, for example, the satisfaction of Abraham when he is informed that his seed shall possess the land of Canaan. In a matrilineal society, family ambition would have to be confined to women, and as women do not do the fighting, such family ambition as they may have has less effect than that of men. One must suppose, therefore, that of fatherhood would make human competitive, more energetic, more hustling than it had been in the matrilineal stage. Apart from this effect, which is to some extent hypothetical, there was a new and all-important reason for insisting upon the virtue of wives. The purely instinctive element in jealousy is not nearly so strong as most moderns imagine. The extreme strength of jealousy in patriarchal societies is due to the fear of falsification of descent. This may be seen in the fact that a man who is tired of his wife and passionately devoted to his mistress will nevertheless be more jealous where his wife is concerned than when he finds a rival to the affections of his mistress.”
Much food for thought in the introduction and in the preceding chapter
Chapter II: Matrilineal Societies
And all the other chapters which I think are relevant to some of the realities in Modern Nigeria, and the rest of 21st Century Africa :
Chapter IV Phallic Worship, Asceticism and Sin
Chapter V: Christian EthicsFor balance: Marriage and Morals in Islam
Lastly, to what category of wanton liars should Baba Kadiri want to assign those who propagate “The idea that African homosexuality was a colonial import is a myth”?
Salimonu Kadiri
Cornelius Hamelberg
Baba Kadiri,
That was an ancient, straightforward, prescriptive, stiff upper lip conservative, traditionalist, culturally patriarchal, male chauvinist Yorubaman talking, reasonably, of course, and true to the values that he so cherishes.
I only disagree with your limiting love - including sexual love - to that which you believe can only occur between a man and a woman.
For brevity’s sake let us limit ourselves to this one name: Sappho
I rest my case
Salimonu Kadiri
Cornelius Hamelberg
Baba Kadiri ( homophobic Yoruba chauvinist patriarch );
I would like to advise you against escalation; try to seek peace and pursue it - or be prepared to face the unpleasant consequences.
Morning, noon and night, I’m the same one - just like the Holy Trinity that I’m sure some Yoruba missionaries patiently explained to you, once upon a time in Yoruba, a language which I’m sure you can understand, as it should be understood.
Do you want to kaka on my ancestry? Me, a “Sierra Leonean Jew in the morning, a Sierra Leonean Yoruba in the afternoon and a Sierra Leonean British in the evening.”? Really? And who are you, may I ask? Is that what your Yoruba parents taught you about me? I know my genealogy very well and I’m not about to start altercating with the likes of you about who you think I am. I know who I am, I know who my parents are, my grandparents, and my great-grandparents. I also have three brothers and a sister, a son and two daughters - and three grandchildren, all boys. I have and have had uncles, aunts, cousins, and friends; 98% of my Sierra Leonean friends were/ are Creoles. The Yoruba element that seems to fascinate you so much is not such a big deal with me. I have never been anywhere near “ Yoruba-land” - Yoruba guitar is the guitar music that I find least interesting on the world music menu.
Culture would be very much an essential part of my identity. I’d say that the “Sierra Leonean'' element is not that pronounced - the Krio Language is very much there of course - I talked to George Morgan for the better part of an hour, just a few days ago - in Krio - we laughed most of the time - he’s a dentist back home, returned home after studying in Germany and teaching at a University there for a good six years - he’s currently on vacation in Maryland; his older brother Tommy, was Sierra Leone’s Minister of Finance, a while back - we reminisced about the good old days. I was last in Sierra Leone - and for only ten days, over 52 years ago, and then back to Ghana. Those who really love Sierra Leone are there, most of the time.
“A Sierra Leonean British ''? You must be mad and are showing early warning signs of the dreaded dementia. What are you talking about? Yes, I had a British passport some time ago. I also like the language, the literature, and the people.
As Derek Walcott puts it The Schooner Flight
“I'm just a red nigger who love the sea,
I had a sound colonial education,
I have Dutch, nigger, and English in me,
and either I'm nobody, or I'm a nation”
Right now, some of us are mourning the passing away of Her Majesty, Queen Elizabeth II.
When I arrived in London in 1952, Sir Winston Churchill was the prime Minister of the United Kingdom and remained in that position until 1955 when I was still attending primary school in Fulham. The Queen’s Coronation was in June 1953 - and I was very much aware of what was happening in the UK, even then. Fast forward, the next time I saw Her Majesty was during her visit to Sierra Leone, in 1961. History can only attest to what a wonderful person is, she was and will always be!
Right now, I assume that you must be feeling quite pleased with yourself, having just awarded yourself a pleasant moment in the sun, but let me put it straight to you, that there’s no chameleon about me, perhaps some complexity and in all humility I shouldn’t want to describe myself as a simpleton - like you - and, subjectively speaking I’d say that I’m straighter than you - and that you are perhaps a hypocrite, the very one being referred to by Abiodun Oyewole & Co in these lines:
“The change in the day that makes them rant and rave
“Black Power! Black Power!”
And the change that comes over them at night, as they sigh and moan:
“White thighs, ooh, white thighs”
Since you love proverbs, here are some for you: “Idle hands are the devil’s workshop; idle lips are his mouthpiece; an evil man sows strife; gossip separates the best of friends. Wickedness loves company—and leads others into sin”
If you have nothing better to do, you had better check this out :
“Interracial Sex as Taboo: The New Imperialism, Christian Victorian Values, Nationalism, and the Legacies of Intimacy in the Colony of Sierra Leone, 1861–1914” by Nigel Browne-Davies
Cornelius Hamelberg
Baba Kadiri, the Swedish-Nigerian who has been here in Sweden since circa 1967 thinks that he is one of the few normal persons in a World Gone Wrong and that everybody that’s not like him, is not normal. I’m looking forward to when someone like him is gonna tell his old lady that after menopause, the normal thing should be for her to go get him a new fresh, young wife, in the old Yoruba style, for him to impregnate. If he ever summons the courage to tell her that, she’ll probably poison his coffee and pray that he will be dragged to hell for the punishment, to join those who Ginsberg describes in Howl, those
“ who let themselves be fucked in the ass by saintly motorcyclists, and screamed with joy.”
For Baba Kadiri: Some new vocabulary that we had better give some attention to:
Cosmopolitan ( meaning and definition)
The ism, deriving from that word: Cosmopolitanism
“ I’m a cosmopolitan; …if I see a human being, I see one of us,” said Harvey Tristan Cropper
Kwame Anthony Appiah has a thing or two to say about Cosmopolitanism
Bob Dylan to some gial : Blood in my eyes for you
Cornelius Hamelberg
This story cascades downwards
The story of Baba K, a fixed constellation.
Like Joyce Cary’s Mister Johnson
The story is fiction.
Baba K was born a Yoruba man
And Baba K will die a Yoruba man
The fact that Karl Marx and Thomas Paine
Have both severely messed with his brain
Is secondary. Baba K remains the same.
Cornelius Hamelberg
Baba Solomon Kadiri of course would like us all to believe in the ideal Yoruba Nation of his imagination, in which there was no word corresponding to “ homosexual” “ Lesbian” “ rape” "prostitution" - maybe even adultery and fornication etc because such people and from his own immaculate point of view, such evil did not exist in Yoruba land.
However, hopefully, he must admit and cannot deny the existence of slavery and the slave trade among the Yoruba, and the many implications thereof
Salimonu Kadiri
Cornelius Hamelberg
Dear Baba Salimonu Kadiri of Ondo and Stockholmo,
You could be “a heterosexual Yoruba Sierra Leonean in the night, a bisexual Yoruba Sierra Leonean in the morning and a homosexual Yoruba Sierra Leonean Yoruba in the afternoon.” - You - Not me. I’m and have always been heterosexual and intend to stay that way, thank you.
You are so shrilly homophobic that there’s a possibility that you may be a latent homosexual - that’s what some of the psychologists say about people who are so hostile to the idea. In your case, it could be Baba Kadiri and ancient Yoruba mythology versus science ( and technology)
There’s even speculation about Paul …
I thought about you yesterday as I watched this - and the Google Engineer on His Sentient AI Claim - wondering, what’s the world coming to? Soon the machine will know that it’s writing poetry!
Baba Kadiri, if only you would be decent enough - in the cultured and cultivated, good old Yoruba manner - to spare us all the gross physical, anatomical, sexual details - holding up holes, pointing at vaginas, waving and brandishing penises etc in this very public forum in which there are ladies present!
It would seem that we haven’t made much progress since the last time that we broached this subject matter. I suppose that if you returned to earth a thousand years from today you’d still be preaching about the ground on which you stand: Ancient Yoruba praxis, ancient Yoruba sexual mores before - as you allege - before colonialism came and mucked up everything that the Yoruba folk knew as natural and worshipped as sacred.
With this your rhetorical flair that “ When it comes to sexual love, truth is not circumlocutory, truth is constant, it doesn't shift, it doesn't move, it doesn't twist and turn.”, I’m happy to note - positively - that you seem to be well acquainted with Paul’s 1 Corinthians 13 ( with either the New International Version or other approximate translations into Yoruba ) and would like to redirect your attention to Paul as you seem to me to be either following or echoing his rhetorical trajectory when he flares on thusly:
“ If I speak in the tongues[a] of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast,[b] but do not have love, I gain nothing.
Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hope, always perseveres.
Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. For now, we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
And now these three remain faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.”
Please note, Paul’soverwhelming emphasis on LOVE ( the greatest )
Now, what you obviously don’t understand and it seems, cannot comprehend is that this vital element called love - also exists, we are to assume, in full measure too, with the people you despise as LGBTQ.
As to your request that I should provide linguistic evidence to counter your claim that homosexuality etc never existed on the African Continent before missionary and colonial incursions into virgin Yoruba territory, I’d just like to say this: I am not privy to what goes on in the numerous Secret Societies in Africa. I have read a number of doctoral theses on the subject but I’m reluctant to go any further into the matter. You could of course enquire from members of certain secret societies and even take the bold, adventurous step of joining one of them so as to be privy to reliable information and maybe even practise from the inside.
Cornelius Hamelberg
Baba Kadiri,
You may view this as psycho-babble if you want, dear psycho-babble Baba Kadiri, but I’d just like to add - and this is important, that where I’m coming from and according to the Book, God - the Almighty, made us in His own image and likeness.
I’m pointing this out because you seem to think that the body and the soul too have a nationality - sort of belongs to where you happened to have been born, whether it was “Egypt” like Moses or the birthplace of your namesake Abdul Qadir Gilani. And that’s why in spite of all the migrations, the environment and all sorts of other influences since birth, you seem to be so fixated on some kind of “nationality” as your main identity and basic ground of being - a spiritual identity - as a kind of outer and undergarment that a person wears, a garment or light that signals and signifies a person’s so-called innermost being (of the body, mind and soul) as our dear countryman Emanuel Swedenborg puts it.
On the Day of Judgement when the angel calls your name - Salimonu Kadiri - are you going to reply “ present” and identify yourself as a " Yorubaman/ Nigerian?
I suppose that's the core of your being.
I suppose that's how some people will identify themselves - as “ President of Nigeria!”, “ Leader of the Rebellion!” “Emeritus Professor of Political Science”, ”Chief Justice of the International Criminal Court” etc as replying to a straightforward question such as “Who is Kwasi Kwarteng?”
Emmanuel Swedenborg's written output is also quite interesting.
Of possible interest to you: Emanuel Swedenborg on LGBT
Salimonu Kadiri
Cornelius Hamelberg
O less than omniscient Salimonu Kadiri,
Talk is cheap. Two can play at this you know, and even here, one can surpass the other, even in rudeness.
My sincere advice is that you had better stop it right now or have later cause to soon regret. Don’t say that I didn’t warn you.
It’s easy to award your humble self the unearned professional title of psychologist/ psychiatrist / Babalawo, and then to go ahead with your most potent ad hominems, diagnosing those who differ from your normalcy as “ psychotic”, guilty of “psycho-babble” even as you plunge into your obscene Yoruba poetics translated into Modern English as nauseating clinical descriptions of your favourite body parts, “rectum”, “anus” “ penis”, “female's vagina”
Take note:
Africa is much bigger than your neck of the woods in Nigeria, some of which you believe yourself to be so well acquainted with.
Don’t you think that you are taking on more than you can chew when you make broad over-generalisations and want to reduce this matter to your maniacal and unfounded assertion that there are and were no “correspondent words for homosexuality and other sexual perversities indigenous African languages before slavery, colonialism, Christianity and Islamic era.”?
You have conveniently ignored or chosen to side-step what I stated in the last paragraph of that which your Besserwisser self is supposed to be responding to.
I wrote: the following:
“ As to your request that I should provide linguistic evidence to counter your claim that homosexuality etc never existed on the African Continent before missionary and colonial incursions into virgin Yoruba territory, I’d just like to say this: I am not privy to what goes on in the numerous Secret Societies in Africa. I have read a number of doctoral theses on the subject but I’m reluctant to go any further into the matter. You could of course enquire from members of certain secret societies and even take the bold, adventurous step of joining one of them so as to be privy to reliable information and maybe even practise from the inside. “
The balls is in your court
Cornelius Hamelberg
1996 - 2016, I spent most of my time on Judaica, mostly to and from the synagogue library and had little time for anything else. Still, let’s leave aside the PhD theses for the moment ( but if push comes to shove I can give you the relevant information if you demand it, publication date, author, title etc, - available at the Royal Library at least some fifteen years ago - it’s just that the subject doesn't really interest me, I have never been a member of any such Indigenous African Secret Societies or been through their rites of passage or their special training in the survival techniques reported about them, or been inducted into that kind of bonding - which keeps secrets secret, and above all, I don’t want to embarrass anybody - it’s part of our religious ethics to not embarrass others ) but how about this relatively old piece of gossip,
If you say being gay is not African, you don’t know your history,
from which this sentence contains some of the evidence that the pedantic Salimonu Kadiri who doth protest too much, methinks, still insists that such evidence does not exist in his mother tongue which is Yoruba:
“ For example, in my local language (Yoruba), the word for “homosexual” is adofuro, a colloquialism for someone who has anal sex. It might sound insulting and derogatory, however, the point is there is a word for the behaviour. Moreover, this is not a new word; it is as old as the Yoruba culture itself.”
Of Relevance :
The Lies We Have Been Told: On (Homo) Sexuality in Africa …
Sexual difference in Africa: Resistance and compassion
Cornelius Hamelberg
“…the Yoruba people never had corresponding words in their language for homosexual, lesbian, and rape because they were never practised. The only sensible way to support your claim that my assertion that there were no correspondent words in Yoruba for homosexual, lesbian and rape, is an ideal Yoruba Nation of my imagination, is to publish the corresponding words in Yoruba so that everyone can see. That should not be a problem for you who is known for being extremely addicted to google. As you might have noticed, I did not limit my assertion of non-existence of the sexual perversities in question to Yoruba people of Nigeria, but entire Africa. Thus, I have challenged you and other Africans on this forum to publish the exact words for homosexual, lesbian and rape in their respective native language. Instead of being crabby, what an intelligent Sierra Leonean like you should do, is to publish what those sexual perverties were called in your Sierra Leaonean mother tongue before the advent of slavery, Christianity, Islam and colonialism in Africa. “ ( S. Kadiri)
The whole point of telling Baba Kadiri about my long conversation with George Morgan, in Krio, the other day, was for him to understand that one of my mother tongues is Krio - also a very rich language, with lots of loanwords from many other languages, including Yoruba and Igbo. The Krio word for uncircumcised is “a-toh-toh” , possibly the derivative of Yoruba.
If your emphasis is on “before the advent of slavery, Christianity, Islam and colonialism in Africa.”, then obviously Krio does not qualify to suit your purpose, since Krio is an outcome of slavery, Christianity, ….and colonialism in Africa. “ The most suitable candidates for your enquiry would be the precolonial languages of Sierra Leone, such as Limba. Themne, Mende, Fula etc etc etc .Ask the experts!
When S. Kadiri talks about “before the advent of slavery, Christianity, Islam and colonialism in Africa” it’s such a wide field, and I’m left wondering exactly what kind of slavery does he have in mind, and with particular reference to the tradition of slavery in Yorubaland, exactly when did that begin? Surely before the dramatic entry of Islam into the picture and the civilising missions of Christianity?
Another order of reality: That there were probably no Yoruba words for tonsillitis or bacteria or pederasty in Yorubaland about twelve hundred years ago, is no proof that such phenomena did not exist among the Yoruba that long ago.
As usual, Cornelius Ignoramus does not know and that’s why he’s asking, and in requesting his own reasonable standards of proof, hopefully, he is not being pedantic or semi-academic about it, but these outstanding issues have to be cleared up, since, outside of the oral transmission traditions in the pre-Islamic and pre- Christian era in Yoruba Nigeria, the Yoruba probably did not keep any written records or produce a flourishing written literature that has survived until today, a literature wherein we would find words - nouns, adjectives, euphemisms, slang, for various LGBTQ phenomena or find descriptions of our Yoruba ancestors chewing their chicken bones to a soupy pulp somewhere in the Don’t -Mind-Your-Wife Chop bars of long, long ago.
In fact, please correct me if I’m wrong, but I’m told by a Cuban Santeria friend that the Cuban Babalawos are familiar with a more ancient form of Yoruba liturgies, than the ones currently in use in e.g. Lagos.
Ditto, we have been given to understand that Haitian Creole has its roots in Napoleonic French and that the French Caribbean people spoke a more elegant form of the French language that dates back to the eighteenth century…
Perhaps ditto with the Sierra Leone Krio that I am familiar with, the Krio of the sixties of the last century with roots in Victorian English and of course, nicely spiced with the translations of the Psalms and proverbs from the King James Version of the Bible, which still peppers the language of Saro journalese of that period., right up till today….
What has all of the above got to do with what we are supposed to be talking about, Emeritus Professor Kadiri?
That’s another tough question for Cornelius Ignoramus
Cornelius Hamelberg
This statement can be extended to include the idea that “ You can’t have some kinds of capitalism without slavery” and that you can’t have slavery - that peculiar form of domination, without also having some forms of slavery including what’s known today as “sexual slavery” or even what the French refer to (thinking of le Mariage de Figaro and le droit de seigneur, a concept which I imagine also extended to some West African monarchical type of aristocracies/hierarchies in various African principalities long before the advent of Christianity, colonialism or the Islamic idea of” those whom your right hands possess”)
In the days of oppression, before Civil Rights Laws came into force, a white cop on the beat, driving in downtown New Orleans which is in Louisiana, could espy some sexy looking black booty that was to his liking, arrest her, charge her with “ loitering” drive down to the police station and rape her….
I’m thinking along those lines bearing in mind what Rabbi David Lazar once told me (and assuming that I understood him correctly) that what is condemned in the Hebrew Bible is not homosexuality per se, but certain forms of sexual domination…
James Brown : -: There Was a TimeOluwatoyin Adepoju
Cornelius Hamelberg
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Cornelius Hamelberg
It’s like Russia’s little incursion into their once-upon-a-time good neighbours, a core part of the old Soviet Empire. The 24th of February will always be a day to remember, just like the 1st of September - that’s how it is, it’s easy to start but no one knows how or when it will end - we may read and digest Revelations and other big Apocalyptic Literature in Google or somewhere else but the exact timing of the end is still uncertain unless of course Putin decides that it’s going to start today ( the beginning of the end) - but have no fear, the end is not just round the corner - of that, I’m fully convinced after viewing this Jerusalem Post Conference - celebrating its 90th anniversary it’s so upbeat and full of hope about the future of the Middle East where doomsday prophets say Armageddon is about to begin the begin.
In the meantime, in the wake Liz Truss Taking over, and the sad sad event of Her Majesty’s departure, everyone’s forgotten poor Sir Salman Ahmed Rushdie, he’s not even on the back burner, there are no reporters reporting back to us how he is faring, if he’s recovering speedily or not, just as the header of this thread “Mohammed's Koran and Salman Rushdie's The Satanic Verses: A Comparative Reading” has morphed into an inane discussion in which we hear a very emotional, battle-ready S. Kadiri in the mode of challenge, chirping, “ I did not limit my assertion of non-existence of the sexual perversities in question to Yoruba people of Nigeria, but entire Africa.” I’m waiting for the expected thunderclap or codswallop from him so that I can drop the bombs that will definitively end the discussion.
If only we could have asked Afrocentrist popularisers such as Yosef Ben-Jochannan , John Henrik Clarke, and Ivan Van Sertima about this chicken bone of contention, that there was not even a trace of any LGBTQ in “ the entire Africa… before the advent of slavery, Christianity, Islam and colonialism in Africa.”
When such poppycock talk about “ Africa’s exceptionalism goes unchallenged there’s the danger that it could be swallowed hook, line and sinker, as the truth because one 21st century Baba XYZ said so.
In the old days, Egypt meant Africa, and in rabbinical parlance, Egypt meant magic, carnality, “and you should not go that way again”
If the investigative scholars can talk about “Homosexuality in Ancient Egypt” then it should be a given, that sure as hell they would also be poking their noses into the possibilities of Homosexuality in Ancient Africa
Not to mention human sacrifice and other atrocities.
Before Colonialism ( Palestine was a Roman colony)
Before Christianity came and wiped your sins away
Followed by “ A Mercy to the World”
Salimonu Kadiri
Salimonu Kadiri
Salimonu Kadiri
Cornelius Hamelberg
Baba Kadiri,
You and me and Thabo Mbeki and a whole lot of other conscious Africans are on the same page when you say that,
“How to feed the growing population of Africa and providing people with modern housing, potable water, constant electricity, good infrastructure and transportation should be the major concerns of lovers of Africa and not the imposition of same-sex intercourse on Africans”
This ought not to diminish the importance of the late Shaykh Dr Abdalqadir as-Sufi decrying in his discourse Papal Bull, that Benedictus Erectus, sadly “made one important announcement for a continent crippled with the doctrines of bankism, poverty, genocide, and sexual anarchy with its pandemic disease. Africa, he declared, had to cure itself of witchcraft and the practices of magic.”
You yourself are overflowing with self-confidence quoting the Holy Bible, Leviticus, chapter 18 verse 22 and Leviticus, chapter 20 verse 13 and then asserting that you “can safely conclude that the greatest known homophobes are the authors of Holy Bible/Torah and those who believe that the contents of the Bible/Torah are God's words.”
That said, it should be disingenuous to argue that those who are most vehemently homophobic/ holy homophobes are homosexuals
Well, there’s a school of thought that believes that if indeed all of mankind came from Africa, and those who behold themselves as Europeans, originally emigrated from Africa to Europe and that it was from Africa that they exported the original homo-sapiens practise of homo-sexuality, that Homosexuality was first practised in Africa and then exported to the rest of the world
What can the sexually erudite Dr Baba Kadiri come up with when rejecting the validity of such a thesis?
You are of course familiar with The Curse of Ham. Well, some Rabbinical commentators have suggested that Ham actually sodomised his father Noah; some other Rabbinical authorities suggest that Ham‘s crime was that he castrated his father, Abba Noah. :
And, by the way, what do you have to say about Human sacrifice, sexual slavery and child marriage among the Yoruba in pre-colonial Africa ?
Of possible interest to O.V. Adepoju:
The Extraordinary Origins Of Modern Pagan Witchcraft
( to be continued)
Cornelius Hamelberg
Here follows the continuation of my response to you, Menahem Cornelius Hamelberg, about the origin of sexual perversity, particularly homosexuality, in Africa.
The United Nations AIDS (UNAIDS), specially created to fight AIDS globally, was strongly influenced by the United States who had decided that the only problem confronting Africa south of Sahara worth paying attention to was HIV/AIDS. The head of UNAIDS in 1997 was a Belgian born Dr Peter Piot and commenting on the supposedly HIV infection in Africa in a Newsweek magazine interview of 8 December 1997, he said, "We are now realizing that the rates of HIV transmission have been grossly underestimated, particularly in Sub-Saharan Africa, where the bulk of infections have been concentrated. UNAIDS now estimates that 7.4 percent of Africans 15 to 49 (years of age) are infected. Because voluntary testing is so rare, at least 90 percent don't even know that the virus is lurking in their body fluids (p.41-42)." Just as Menahem Cornelius Hamelberg today is guessing that there were homosexuals in precolonial Africa without being able to tell his readers the corresponding word for homosexual in any African language before colonialism, Dr Peter Piot's UNAIDS did not tell the world how many Africans were between the age of 15 and 49 to arrive at 7.4 percent of them being infected with HIV. How did the good Samaritan, Dr Peter Piot from Belgium, know that the virus was lurking in the body fluids of Africans when they were never tested and the virus infection was never visible on the face of the infected? On possible AIDS vaccine, Dr Peter Piot was asked, "What about animal testing?" He responded, "One of the problems is that there are no good animals to test on. Chimpanzees are the best laboratory animal for this research, but there are too few of them in the world. When you are talking about tests on five monkeys here, six there, what can you conclude?" To the question, ''What is UNAIDS ITSELF DOING?'' Peter Piot replied, "One day we will have to go into human trials to see if a vaccine works. We are working with Thailand, Uganda, Brazil, and others to enhance their ability to conduct vaccine trials. In plain language, Ugandans, among others, are cheaper to use than chimpanzees in conducting vaccine experiments, the iatrogenic head of UNAIDS told the world.
By 1987, western scientists began to suspect the hypothesis that HIV was the cause of a deadly disease named AIDS and questions were being asked as to how a dormant (lengthy virus) virus could be causing thirty different kinds of old known diseases in people. Professor Kary B. Mullis, the 1993 Nobel Prize winner in Chemistry, the inventor of gene-amplification technique called Polymerase Chain Reaction (PCR) and also deployed by virologists to discover the extremely tinny particle like HIV had since 1988 enquired consistently, in which scientific paper was it proved that HIV is the probable cause of AIDS? According to Professor Mullis, he had an occasion to ask, his fellow Professor, Luc Montagnier, the co-discoverer of HIV (actually LAV) who was in San Diego to give a talk, the question. According to Professor Mullis, Luc Montagnier said, "Why don't you quote the report from the centres for Disease Control?" Professor Mullis replied, "It doesn't really address the issue of whether or not HIV is the probable cause of AIDS, does it?" "No," he admitted. "Why don't you quote the work on SIV (Simian Immuno-deficiency Virus)?" the good doctor offered. I responded, "I read that too, professor Montagnier. What happened to those monkeys didn't remind me of AIDS. Besides, that paper was just published only a couple of months ago. I'M LOOKING FOR THE ORIGINAL PAPER WHERE SOMEBODY SHOWED THAT HIV CAUSED AIDS." This time, Mullis wrote, Professor Montagnier's response was to walk quickly away to greet an acquaintance across the room (p. xi -xiii, foreword to Inventing the AIDS Virus edited by Peter Duesberg). In a book titled: POSITIVELY FALSE- EXPOSING THE MYTHS AROUND HIV AND AIDS By Joan Shenton, Kary Mullis was quoted as saying, "Human beings are full of retroviruses, and neither HIV nor any other retroviruses by itself poses any kind of threat. Which is not to say that there is no such thing as AIDS - only that HIV doesn't cause it (p. 154)." If HIV doesn't cause AIDS, what then was causing AIDS, especially, among the homosexuals?
In the book titled: INVENTING THE AIDS VIRUS and edited by a Professor of Molecular Biology, Peter H. Duesberg, under the sub-title: AIDS THROUGH CHEMISTRY, readers are informed thus, "During 1960s, MALE HOMOSEXUALS DISCOVERED THE APHRODISIAC EFFECTS OF NITRITES. RECEPTIVE ANAL INTERCOUSE BECAME LESS PAINFUL BECAUSE THE ANAL SPHINCTER (MUSCLE) WOULD RELAX; THEREFORE, RECEPTIVE MEN USED FAR MORE OF THE DRUG THAN DID THEIR INSERTING PARTNERS. NITRITES ALSO HELPED MAINTAIN ERECTIONS AND INTENSIFIED ORGASM, AND SOME USERS EVEN CLAIMED EUPHORIC 'HIGH.' .... Few chemicals are more toxic than nitrites. Sodium nitrite, a much weaker related compound used in tiny amounts as a preservative in meats, has been regulated for years as a potential CANCER-CAUSING AGENT. The alkylated nitrites (poppers), on the other hand, react more violently with almost anything. Upon mixing with water, as in the human body, these nitrites form the unstable nitrous acid, which in turn destroys any biological molecules within reach. The nitrites and their breakdown products have long been known to scientists for their ability to mutate the DNA ... In addition, nitrites are some of the most powerful cancer-causing chemicals in existence. In contact with living cells, nitrite inhalants are cytotoxic (cell-killing), which means THEY EITHER POISON OR KILL CELLS INCLUDING, OF COURSE, THE BLOOD-FORMING CELLS AND THE EPITHELIAL LINING OF THE LUNGS. Since these are among the fastest growing cells in the body; they will also be among the first cells to be in short supply if the sources are intoxicated. THIS IS THE REASON THAT NITRITES CAUSE ANEMIA, IMMUNODEFICIENCY, AND PNEUMONIA IN EXPERIMENTAL ANIMALS AND HUMANS (p. 270-271)." Further on p.274-275, Duesberg emphasised, "THE TOXICITY OF NITRITES TO THE CELLS OF THE LUNG AND THE IMMUNE SYSTEM ALSO EXPLAINS THE PROCLIVITY OF MALE HOMOSEXUAL NITRITE USERS FOR PNEUMONIA, WHICH IS THE MOST COMMON IN THE UNITED STATES AND EUROPE." Even if one is not a scientist, any literate person will understand from the a-forecited Peter Duesberg's postulation that the inserting and the recipient in a homosexual anal intercourse must rely on life-endangering drugs to facilitate penetration where it should naturally not occur.
As an ancient Yoruba mythologist, as Menahem Hamelberg described me, I read the contribution of emeritus Professor of Public Health, University of Glasgow, UK, Gordon T. Stewart, in a book also edited by Peter H. Duesberg and titled: AIDS - Virus or Drug Induced. Emeritus Professor of Public Health, Gordon T. Stewart wrote therein, "Male homosexual relationships without anal intercourse or injection of drugs are not associated with AIDS; neither is lesbianism. AIDS began and prevailed among ....the passive male, and sometimes female, recipients of anal intercourse. This is because the rectal mucosa and its supporting tissues are RELATIVELY FRAGILE, DESIGNED FOR EXCRETORY NOT FOR INTRUSIVE ACTIVITY. When the thin submucosa is eroded and blood vessels are damaged, the tissues and blood stream are opened to invasion by all the organisms of the faecal microflora, by the pathogens of all the sexually transmitted diseases and many others. The risk of trauma and infections increases greatly with frequency, variety (Oro-anal, lingua-vaginal) and violence of the sexual activity and preference, as with 'fisting' and other accessory, traumatic and contaminating procedures, and with multiplicity of partners. The frequent presence of semen (sperm) in the rectum and blood adds allogenic 'nonself' reactions which dysregulate immune responses. The faecal microflora interacts with semen to form N-nitroso compounds some of which are immunosuppressive and carcinogenic. Immunosuppression also occurs from the use of volatile alkyl nitrites (poppers) as aphrodisiacs and relaxants - an effect which conveniently extends to the rectal sphincter. In experimental animals, these nitro-sating agents are lymphotoxic, causing immunosuppression followed by death from acute and chronic infections. Male homosexuals have anti-spermatozoa antibodies in the blood, which cross-react with T-cells and have been linked to the occurrence of azoospermia and testicular atrophy in homosexual men. The same antibodies have been detected in female patients with AIDS and are cross-reactive with T-cells and HIV antibodies. THE COMMON FACTOR IS OBVIOUSLY ANAL INTERCOURSE, a main risk-factor for female as for male AIDS. These cross-reactions reflect a mixed state of allogenic and auto-immunity in which patients, with or without HIV, reject their own T-cells because they cannot distinguish them from antigens from antigens from spermatozoa, HIV, other infections, foreign proteins and cells in transfusions and injection needles used for street drugs. AIDS is a disease acquired by self-preferred or self-imposed behaviours which in themselves dysregulate immunity and homeostasis while also leading to exposure to various pathogenic and opportunistic infections (p. 176 -179)." This lengthy quotation shows that the anus/rectum is not a sexual organ and the deposit of semen inside it will cause nature to fight back and result in AIDS.S. Kadiri (to be continued)
From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com <usaafric...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Cornelius Hamelberg <cornelius...@gmail.com>
Cornelius Hamelberg
Dear Baba Kadiri,
I’m also wishing you a sweet and happy 5783
True: I have absconded from the discussion, poetically speaking, “with my tail between my legs”, for the simple reason it’s a time for repentance and I don’t want to get further embroiled in this discussion which is based on some ideas of sin or to inadvertently incur God’s wrath.
In this respect, you should be happy to note that you are in essential agreement with much of what Rabbi Mizrachi says on LGBTQ issues.
From the point of view that not everybody is pre-colonial African, ancient Yoruba, Jewish, Christian or Muslim. we could look at this heavy-going piece demanding some close attention and be the better off for it: : Metaphysical Objections to Normative Truth (Thomas Scanlon)
In the meantime, there are still questions about the big bang theory
Last word: Our earth is a lot smaller than Heaven